Part 11

5221. Do you think they would bring a larger price?--There have been vessels sold at the West Indies, but there was not any material difference in price; it would depend a good deal upon the island to which they went; in some islands there might be no great demand.

5222. _Chairman._] There is a good deal of small traffic, is there not, along the coasts of the West India islands?--Yes; I should think the chances are, that the prices vessels would fetch in the West Indies would be higher than at Sierra Leone.

5223. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Suppose the station was established at the West Indies, would there not be the security that they would be sold without being made use of again for the slave trade?--There might be. I have strongly recommended that vessels should be sent to the West Indies, when they have cargoes on board; that the slaves should be landed in the West Indies, and the vessels, of course, might be sold there when sent over.

5224. _Chairman._] You would bring them to Sierra Leone for adjudication?--Yes; there could not be a mixed commission established under the present system in the West Indies; because the treaty requires that there shall be one mixed commission on the coast of Africa, and another in the West Indies, and we have one there already at Havannah.

5225. You would think it a very material advantage, looking to the slave trade, if those sales could take place at the West Indies instead of on the coast of Africa?--No; the advantage that I was alluding to, is an advantage for the supply of labour in the West Indies, but not with regard to the supply of vessels, because the vessel might soon run across the Atlantic, and get into the hands of the slavers, as at present.

5226. If a person wished to obtain those vessels bought in the West Indies, for the encouragement of the slave trade, he would buy them at a great disadvantage as compared with the price which he now pays at Sierra Leone?--Yes; but notwithstanding the higher price in the West Indies, it is not likely to be such a price that the owner would not be able to get much more from the slave dealers than anybody else.

5227. If the sales of the prize vessels and the prize goods were made in the West Indies rather than at Sierra Leone, would they be less serviceable in the encouraging the slave trade?--Those particular goods would.

5228. Would the absence of that mode of supply be in any way an obstruction to the slave trader?--Certainly not.

5229. Are they got at those prize sales at a cheaper rate than they are directly from the merchants?--The price goods obtained at public auctions is much lower than you would buy them for in one of the shops.

5230. Then by so far as the prize sales in Sierra Leone do furnish a cheaper article to the slaver than the regular sale would do, so far they are an assistance to his trade?--The cheapness of goods sold at Sierra Leone is useful to all trades as well as to that.

5231. But if those sales did not take place at Sierra Leone, they would not be supplied so cheaply as they are?--It is a very small portion of assistance they receive; but so far as it goes it is an assistance.

5232. A vessel sold at Sierra Leone, is more easily convertible to the purposes of the slave trade, than if it were sold in the West Indies?--More easily, but not much more so, because the vessel might be run across at once.

5233. Is there not more demand for vessels in the West Indies than at Sierra Leone?--Certainly, and therefore the price would be higher.

5234. Captain _Fitzroy_.] Is there not also an advantage in having men disposable, ready to man those ships when purchased?--Yes.

5235. Mr. _Forster_.] Are not the cases very few in which they would man the vessels at once again?--I have known cases of that kind.

5236. But are not the cases comparatively rare?--Yes.

5237. _Chairman._] Who generally are purchasers of prize vessels?--The greater portion are purchased on speculation; the number sold now is not at all, in proportion to the number taken, what it was before the Spanish treaty, under which most of the vessels are condemned, require that the vessels should be cut up, but some are bought on speculation, and come into the fruit trade, and others go into the Mediterranean trade; others are bought by slavers.

5238. Mr. _Evans_.] Do you know any thing of the slave ship Almirante, for which vessel the sum of 600_l._ was offered by an officer of Government, to be used as a tender, which offer was not accepted, and the vessel was sold at 1,500_l._, and immediately went down to the Bonny and took away 600 slaves from that port?--The Almirante was captured before my time at Sierra Leone, but I think it is very likely, because such things were taking place continually.

5239. Mr. _W. Patten_.] When you were at Sierra Leone, you have stated in your evidence already, that the liberated Africans were carrying on the trade with much greater advantage than the white merchants, in consequence of the price at which they obtained goods at public auctions?--Not entirely in consequence of that, but that has been one great means to assist them. For many years past, before those prize goods were sold at Sierra Leone, the liberated Africans had gradually been working themselves into notoriety; most of them are very much addicted to trading, and the persons whom they have supplanted are a lazy, indolent, worthless set, who cannot compete with them at all, and having completely driven out of the market the Maroons and settlers, they are now gradually driving out the white merchants.

5240. There is then this additional disadvantage in those auctions at Sierra Leone, that they are destroying the trade of the white merchants of the place, by the other merchants being able to purchase goods at a price which is not remunerating to the British merchant?--I consider it a great advantage.

5241. Is it not a great disadvantage in one respect, that it is discouraging the trade between England and the coast of Africa at that particular point?--No, I think quite the reverse; the supply of goods will be the same whoever are the receivers, and the extent of our export to Sierra Leone will not be diminished by altering the colour of the merchants there.

5242. But if it should be desirable to establish a general trade with that part of the coast in a legitimate way, does not the sale of goods at those public auctions, at materially reduced prices, offer a great impediment to English merchants conducting trade upon that part of the coast?--I think its first effect might be that; but its ultimate effect, I think, would be far different. I think the great point is to encourage the use of such articles, and to increase the desire for them; and the British goods will always, in competition, beat out the foreign goods from the market.

5243. Has it not pretty much the same effect there that a very large sale, under a bankruptcy in England, has upon the trade in this country?--I think not, to the same degree there; because what you require there, in order to create a demand for goods of good quality is, to allow the people to have the use of something superior to what they would have without those sales.

5244. _Chairman._] But the goods sold at those prize sales are articles of an inferior kind, are they not?--The goods that are sold there are very much the same as those that are used by the natives in their own trade, and probably many of them are British manufacture.

5245. You think that it is an advantage to the trade ultimately, that those forced sales, at unnaturally low prices, should be made within the colony, producing a taste which will be gratified by a more regular trade?--Yes.

5246. Though they may interfere with the regular trade in the colony?--That is only for a time.

5247. Mr. _Aldam_.] Are the goods English goods?--The principal part of them are.

5248. _Chairman._] Those forced sales have had a very injurious effect upon the regular trade of the place, have they not?--Yes, upon the shops; at the same time they have raised into wealth, and brought forward still more prominently than before, the liberated African hawkers.

5249. Have they created a class of native traders who have extended commerce inland further than British trade by itself, in its natural course, would have done?--Yes, certainly; the trade between Sierra Leone and the Sherboro’, and the rivers in the neighbourhood of Sierra Leone, has been very much more brisk in the large canoes that are employed by the liberated African traders, since goods have come in so cheaply.

5250. Therefore you think, incidentally to the regular trade, advantage has been given by these forced sales, which have created tastes which would not have existed under other circumstances?--Yes.

5251. Mr. _Forster_.] The brisk trade which you have spoken of between Sherboro’ and Sierra Leone would be with those goods; a trade chiefly with the slave dealers in that quarter?--All are slave dealers, if they can be, beyond British jurisdiction; but what the Sierra Leone traders receive in exchange for goods are rice, and other articles of produce, which are consumed in the colony; for though rice is the principal food of all who can afford to pay for it, there is no rice raised in the colony; and therefore a trade of some kind is required to be carried on, in order to procure the means of subsistence.

5252. _Chairman._] The colony has not the means of supporting itself?--No.

5253. Mr. _Forster_.] Though those goods may be sold to slave dealers in those districts, you think that it is a legitimate and desirable trade for the English merchant?--Yes.

5254. Mr. _Evans_.] Have you not stated that the black merchants at Sierra Leone have more capital than the English?--There are hardly any English merchants; there are agents of English houses. The black merchants have twice as much capital as the resident English agents, but there is one merchant, Mr. William Cole, who is carrying on business on his own account, and he went into the market, he did not hold back and oppose the thing, as was done by the other English traders, but he entered into competition with the black traders, and made a good deal of money by it.

5255. In Sierra Leone merchants who had capital to employ would have considerable advantage over the agents or merchants who had not the money to lay down?--Yes.

5256. Mr. _Forster_.] Was not the want of money you have alluded to on the part of the English merchants, mainly owing to having their stores filled with English merchandize, which was rendered completely unsaleable by the quantity of prize goods thrown into the market in the way you have mentioned?--I think not, because Mr. Cole was in just the same circumstances; he had the largest store in the town; but he had more money than the others; he had money in his pocket instead of being in debt in England, and instead of sending home money as others were obliged to do to pay their accounts in England, he reserved his money to purchase cheap goods in the colony.

5257. Had he a large stock?--Yes, he had; but he took advantage of the circumstances that occurred, and made his profit by them.

5258. Would it answer the purpose of the trader at Sierra Leone to keep a large quantity of goods and money on his hands?--If Mr. Cole had known of those prize goods coming in such large quantities he would not have purchased goods from England, but he happened to have those goods in store as the other merchants had, and he happened to have money also, and he took advantage of the prize goods coming in, but there were very few merchants in that position.

_Martis, 14º die Junii, 1842._

MEMBERS PRESENT.

Sir T. D. Acland. Mr. Aldam. Viscount Courtenay. Mr. Denison. Mr. W. Evans. Captain Fitzroy. Mr. Forster. Mr. Hamilton. Mr. Milnes. Mr. W. Patten.

LORD VISCOUNT SANDON, IN THE CHAIR.

_Henry William Macaulay_, Esq. called in, and further examined.

5261. _Chairman._] Do you wish to make some remarks upon Dr. Madden’s Report, page 14?--I do. He states that liberated Africans at the prize sales at Sierra Leone “buy up the coppers, guns, and ship’s stores of vessels for the British agents of the slave traders of the Sherboro’ and Gallinas residing at Freetown, and thus they acquire a taste for this illegal traffic.” Now he might have known, if he had made any inquiry at Sierra Leone, that coppers are never sold at public auction, or any kind of equipment for the slave trade. The subject is referred to by Colonel Doherty in his reply to Dr. Madden’s Report. He gives a positive contradiction to that statement, and I can confirm the contradiction.

5262. To what are the sales confined?--To the vessels and the goods found on board, and to the tackle, apparel, and furniture; that is the term used in the condemnation; but coppers, irons, and any other articles that may be used again in the slave trade are always brought up to the commission-office or warehouses. It is the interest of the Mixed Commissions to gain every single copper they can; for, when broken up, the coppers are sold, and supply funds from which the repairs of the boat used in the service of the Mixed Commission are paid; that is, the boat used to carry about the officers of the court in the harbour.

5263. Do you mean that the accommodation which the officers derive is dependent upon that?--No; but they are constantly afloat. During the time that a vessel is there the marshal is required to visit her three times a day.

5264. But is the accommodation dependent upon its being derived from this source?--No; whenever that copper fund is insufficient, the repairs of the boat are paid out of the funds of which the foreign governments pay a portion; but the money derived from the sale of the coppers is appropriated to that purpose, and there is a regular account kept of the sale of those coppers that are broken up. There never was an instance of a copper being sold at public auction, or any equipment.

5265. Have you any reason to believe that this practice does lead to the encouragement of the slave trade?--I have none whatever.

5266. Have you reason to believe that any of the parties, either British or native, living at Freetown, are in any way sharers in the proceeds of slave transactions?--They may sell goods to the slave traders.

5267. Are they sharers in the proceeds of slave goods?--I believe not; I cannot say for certain, because we have a shifting population of Spaniards and Portuguese passing through the colony; but I should say no resident whatever shares in such proceeds. It is a thing which one cannot know, because of course such a transaction would be concealed if it existed.

5268. Are you not aware of any British agents of the slave traders; are you aware of the existence of agents of the Sherboro’ and of Gallinas residing in Freetown?--Yes, of persons purchasing vessels on account of slave traders, and I have no doubt purchasing goods also.

5269. What is the interest in the transaction which such persons have?--A commission, I presume.

5270. Mr. _Forster_.] In your former evidence, you have mentioned a merchant, of the name of Kidd, as acting as agent for the purchase of prize vessels on behalf of the slave traders at the Gallinas; in your opinion, was Mr. Kidd singular in that respect?--I do not recollect any other person employed in that way during my time.

5271. Is it within your knowledge that merchants, who were members of the Council of Government at Sierra Leone, have been engaged in similar transactions?--Never, to my knowledge; but I would also mention, as Mr. Kidd’s name has been spoken of, that, since the last meeting of the Committee, I have met with his name accidentally, in connexion with another transaction of the same kind, in the printed Parliamentary Papers, and therefore I may refer to it. It is the case of a vessel sold to a slave trader, a vessel called the Ligeira, which was captured a second time, and brought into Sierra Leone a very short time after she left the port; it appeared that in the meantime Mr. Kidd had carried her from the colony and sold her to a slave trader, and she was captured almost immediately afterwards. The case is reported at page 101 of Class (A.) of the Slave Trade Papers, for 1839-40.

5272. _Chairman._] Would it not be desirable, if possible, that all the vessels taken in the slave trade should be broken up?--Certainly, it would be the best thing that could possibly be done; and in those cases where it appeared to the court, during the latter part of the time that I administered the mixed courts there, that a vessel could have been condemned either as a Portuguese or a Spaniard, in all these cases we condemned her as a Spaniard, in order that she might be cut up after her condemnation; for the slave traders were seriously injured by being deprived of the means of getting off the coast and getting slaves again.

5273. Mr. _W. Patten._] In the case of the breaking up of a vessel, do the captors get any prize money?--Yes, they get a bounty on the tonnage of that vessel; she is measured by the surveyors before being broken up, in order to ascertain her tonnage by the new mode of measurement, and upon that measurement the captors are paid the bounty in England.

5274. It is immaterial to the captors whether the vessel is broken up or sold again, so far as their private interests are concerned?--Except that the vessel sells whole for much more than she does when she is broken up for fire-wood.

5275. Is the vessel valued only as fire-wood when broken up?--They get only a moiety of the proceeds of the broken parts, in the other case they get a moiety of a vessel fit for sea, with all the rigging perfect.

5276. You do not coincide with Dr. Madden, who recommends that a vessel when captured should be put into the possession of the capturing officer to be disposed of?--It would be quite impossible; the foreigners would very justly complain of us if we left the vessel in charge of the officer when once brought before the court. It appears by a paper, which I have seen this morning only, that already they complain of irons and other things, to condemn the vessel, being put on board after the arrival of the vessel at Sierra Leone. Now, if during the time the vessel was passing through the court, and during the time when the marshal now has charge of her, in order to prevent any thing of that kind happening, you left the vessel to the officer, who is interested in putting three or four shackles on board, which is quite sufficient to condemn the vessel, I think they would have just cause to complain.

5277. What Dr. Madden recommends is, that when the vessel has been condemned it should be put at the disposal of the commanding officer on the post, for the exclusive use of the service of the navy?--A small number of the vessels condemned might perhaps be beneficially made use of, and the new Act authorises the purchase of vessels when the commanding officer may think it right to purchase them; but having had that option, he of course only purchased such vessels as were required; we had 60 odd vessels in 1839 before the court; what would the navy have done with all those vessels?

5278. Mr. _Forster_.] Had many of those vessels cargoes on board?--Yes.

5279. _Chairman._] Should you think it would be advisable to sell the vessels under bond that they should not be employed in the slave trade for a certain period?--The law is now almost as stringent as any bond could be.

5280. In what way?--Dr. Madden seems to suppose that vessels may be fitted out in Sierra Leone, and may lie in British waters equipped for the slave trade; but any one at Sierra Leone would have told him that no vessel could possibly lie there equipped for the slave trade; the authorities are so particular, that even in many cases vessels were seized and brought before the court if they were supposed to have a few gallons too much water in them. There is an exceeding jealousy on the subject, as indeed appears by some of the papers which have been presented.

5281. Mr. _Forster_.] Before what court is a vessel, taken in British waters, equipped for the slave trade, brought; the Court of Admiralty or the Court of Mixed Commission?--If she is prosecuted under the Act of Parliament, she is prosecuted of course in the Vice-Admiralty Court.

5282. Is there not a rule on that subject, and are not all vessels taken in British waters on suspicion of being engaged in the slave trade prosecuted in the Admiralty Court?--No; it remains with the captor, if there is a treaty which will reach the vessel, to prosecute her under that treaty before the Mixed Commission Court, if she is a Spaniard or a Portuguese, or before the Admiralty Court, for a breach of the municipal law, because she violates both the treaty and the municipal law, and therefore he has the choice of the one court or the other.

5283. In your last evidence you spoke of a vessel captured of the name of Jack Wilding, at Accra, upon that ground; in which court was she prosecuted?--Before the Mixed Commission Court, but the captor had the option of prosecuting her before the Admiralty Court; the expenses are so much less in our court, and the proceedings so much more rapid, that he preferred bringing her before ours.

5284. Is not the evidence taken before the Mixed Commission Court transmitted to England?--Yes; and it is published by the Foreign Office.

5285. But the evidence in trials before the Vice-Admiralty Court is never made public?--It is not, and a very great disadvantage it is, for this reason: our ability to condemn many of the vessels that were condemned in 1839 depended very much upon evidence found on board vessels brought before the court; this evidence conclusively proved the employment in the slave trade of other vessels not then before us, which were afterwards captured. Now, all evidence of that kind, which might be made use of subsequently in the condemnation of other vessels, is completely shut up from the public or from general knowledge, by the proceedings before the Vice-Admiralty Court being never made public. In the Mixed Commission Court papers can be invoked by the proctor which have been filed in a particular case against another vessel that is subsequently prosecuted.

5286. _Chairman._] Is there no advantage in the secrecy of such papers?--None whatever.

5287. The proceedings before the Mixed Commission Court are public in themselves, and are published afterwards?--The examinations are not public, but strictly private in the first instance, but they are read in open court at the trial of the vessel, and they are sent home to the Foreign Office; an abstract of the evidence of every witness is given.

5288. The evidence taken before the Vice-Admiralty Court is not published in any way?--No.

5289. Is it communicated to the Mixed Commission?--No.

5290. Mr. _Aldam_.] Are the proceedings of the Vice-Admiralty Court there carried on in the same form as the proceedings of the Admiralty Court here?--Yes, very much the same.

5291. With any greater degree of secrecy?--No, but here the public papers publish them; we have no newspapers there to publish accounts of the proceedings.

5292. _Chairman._] Would there be an advantage if the proceedings of the Vice-Admiralty Court were always communicated to the Mixed Commission?--Yes; and I recommended at the time when vessels began to go so frequently to the Vice-Admiralty Court, in 1839, that we should be informed of the papers filed in that court.

5293. Would there be any difficulty or objection to that?--There is no establishment of clerks connected with the Vice-Admiralty Court to supply copies at all, and it is not the custom of the judge of the Vice-Admiralty Court to report his proceedings home.