Part 10
5171. What other items had they reason to complain of besides the one you have mentioned, of the heavy duty upon the article?--With regard to translating documents. I pressed this evil very strongly upon the Government at home, and they have remedied that since. It was found that very great benefit arose to the court from translating all documents almost that were found on board detained slavers, because, in consequence of those translations, we were able to condemn many vessels which would have escaped if it had not been for the translation of papers found on board former vessels, which gave a full history of the transactions in which those vessels subsequently taken were engaged. The translations were made at a heavy expense, and were included in the captor’s expenses, and it could not be avoided; it fell very heavily, indeed, upon the captors; and I recommended that the translator should be adopted by the court, and paid in the same way as other officers of the court, and that his remuneration should be charged in the contingent expenses, which are borne equally by the British Government and the foreign Government, so as to relieve the captors altogether. The court felt a delicacy when they would have wished to have a translation of particular papers, in having it done, because the expense fell so very heavily upon the captors.
5172. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Doctor Madden recommends that “the captors should be allowed to furnish their own interpretation of the documents that require to be translated, subject to the approval and revision of the British Commissioners?”--That is impossible, you can never allow a man to interpret in his own cause. If you left it to the captor to decide upon what papers he would have translated, he would have none translated, if the condemnation of his vessel was secure without it; but now there is no inducement to captors to withhold papers, because the whole expense of the translation is at present borne by the Government.
5173. _Chairman._] In consequence of suggestions made to the Government here?--Yes; in consequence of suggestions made in 1839.
5174. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Doctor Madden also says, “in many cases more than half the prize-money that the captors had reason to expect is swallowed up in the charges made by the various officers at Sierra Leone employed in taking care, and ultimately disposing of the effects of the captured vessel.” Do you know what are the charges that would come under the other charge?--Yes.
5175. Can you distinguish those from the charges you have mentioned?--In the case of an empty Spanish vessel, it is not at all likely that the captor will receive much from the sale of the vessel or effects, because the vessel is cut up into a number of different parts, and those are sold for fire-wood in a country where fire-wood is tolerably plentiful; and, therefore, the expenses that are incurred previously to cutting up, will absorb any thing that can be derived from the old vessel cut up and sold as fire-wood. As far as the goods are concerned, the only charge, besides the duty, is the commission of the commissioner of appraisement and sale, which the captor would have to pay whoever sold the vessel, without having the security which he possesses now of having a good man, or the richest merchant in the place as the person answerable for the money, because in appointing the commissioner of appraisement and sale, the Court takes bond to a very large amount, that he shall account properly for the proceeds of the goods sold; he charges the ordinary commission, 5 per cent., and 2½ per cent. for expenses; and I believe that there is no other charge except the pay of the Kroomen, employed as labourers, and the marshal.
5176. Mr. _Forster_.] Do you think Dr. Madden’s complaint upon the subject correct?--“The intervention of the whole present establishment of marshals, collectors, surveyors, interpreters, harbour-masters, agents, storekeepers, canoe-hirers, and victuallers of captured ships’ crews might be dispensed with.” I do not know what he means by “marshals;” we have only one marshal for the court. There is only one collector of customs, and with him we have nothing to do; he is the officer of the Crown, who collects the same duties from these vessels as he would do from any other vessels; we have no control over him; he is independent of the court; the surveyor is not employed by the court, but subsequently to the condemnation of the vessel, he is employed by the captor to survey, in order to enable him to make a claim according to the tonnage, through his agent in England; that is a question with which we have nothing to do. The interpreter is paid by the court; he gets 5_s._ for each examination, or something of that kind; he is a poor man; they could not get it cheaper done, and there is no hardship in that. The harbour-master charges exactly the same for a prize-vessel as he does for an English vessel; there is a regular fee, under an Act of the Governor and Council; we do not collect it. I do not know who are meant by “agents,” or “storekeepers,” or “canoe-hirers;” I do not know whom he refers to there.
5177. Mr. _W. Patten_.] You do not know of any charges connected with those departments that you have read over?--I know nothing about “agents” and “storekeepers.” There may be a charge where goods are kept, but I do not recollect a cargo ever having been kept, for it is landed and sold immediately; the auctioneer is obliged to sell it under the regulations within a certain time. There are canoes employed to land the cargo by the marshal and by “victuallers of captured ships’ crews.” I do not know whom he means.
5178. Is there any expense thrown upon captured vessels in case of slaves being brought on shore, for the maintenance of the slaves after they are put on shore?--I mentioned in the early part of my evidence that on their being landed they were handed over to the liberated African department, to be kept as slaves until adjudication. They are fed by the liberated African department at the ordinary rate at which the other liberated Africans in the yard are fed; and when the vessel is condemned, the liberated African department brings to the marshal his account for feeding them, at the same rate which is charged for other liberated Africans; I think it is 1½_d._ per head per day, or something of that kind; and there is a further charge, I think, of 4_d._ or 6_d._ per day in the hospital; those are expenses over which the court has no control.
5179. Is any of that charge made upon the share which goes to the captors?--Yes; it comes out of the proceeds of the vessel; they pay half, as it were; it goes in diminution of the moiety which goes to the British Government.
5180. Mr. _Evans_.] The captor has no claim upon that?--The captor has no claim upon it, except from the bounty of Government.
5181. _Chairman._] But the Government does generally hand over its moiety to the captor?--Yes.
5182. Then by whatever amount that moiety is diminished, the captor’s share is diminished?--Yes.
5183. Mr. _W. Patten_.] If any means could be discovered of doing away with those great expenses on the sale of captured vessels, do not you think that it would give great stimulus to cruizers on the coast?--I do not think they require a stimulus; but I do not think it is possible to diminish the charges materially in the shape of duties, which is the heavy item. In translating the papers, they have been already relieved, and also in a great measure from the duties; and I really do not think that there is any change that can materially diminish the expenses, so as to have the services properly performed.
5184. _Chairman._] Those are services which must be performed by somebody, which can hardly be performed at less expense than they are now performed, and if the expenses are to be defrayed, they must be defrayed by the Government or by the captors?--Yes: certainly.
5185. And the Government gets the moiety of the proceeds, but out of its bounty habitually makes over that portion to the captor?--Yes.
5186. You do not think it unfair that the bounty should be diminished by those expenses, not being extravagant expenses, in your opinion?--The bounty granted by Act of Parliament is not diminished. Cases do happen sometimes, as the case of the Passos, where the expenses exceed the proceeds, and in those cases the Government pays the difference, leaving the bounty perfectly free to the captor. None of the expenses go in diminution of the bounty given by Act of Parliament.
5187. But this is a sort of premium given beyond the bounty?--I suppose it was given to enable them to pay the expenses, but they get something beyond the expenses, and the bounty comes to them entire, not suffering any diminution from the general expenses, and the proceeds go in payment of the expenses.
5188. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Do they get the bounty in all cases?--Yes, in all cases captured under the treaties.
5189. If the vessel has no slaves on board, do they receive the bounty?--Then they get the bounty on the tonnage of the captured vessel.
5190. Mr. _Stuart Wortley_.] You have been speaking of cases in which there are slavers captured on board the prizes; in cases where there are no slavers captured on board the prizes, is there any charge made on the proceeds of the vessel on account of the crew?--The crew of a slaver brought into Sierra Leone never consists of more than three, therefore the expense cannot be very great; the adjudication generally takes place on the eighth day after arrival, and there is a regular sum which is given day by day in money to each man; as far as I recollect it, the captain and mate get 3_s._ a day, and the other man 2_s._
5191. Whatever the amount of that charge is, it is made against the proceeds of the vessel?--Yes.
5192. Sir _T. D. Acland_.] Do you recollect sending a despatch home in December 1838, giving your opinion upon the state of the slave trade?--There is a despatch here upon the subject.
5193. Does that despatch refer to the subject of this country retiring from the contest which it has so long carried on?--Yes, I think it does, but I can find the passage.
5194. Can you state what the opinion was?--The opinion expressed was, that unless more effectual means were taken for the suppression of the traffic, that perhaps more harm than good was done by the exertions that we had made previously; but since that time a very great alteration has taken place; I expressed my opinion with regard to an increase of the force on the coast, and the occupation of British territory that belonged to us, where we were supplanted by the slave traders, at Bulama especially, and also as to the punishment of the crews engaged in the slave trade.
5195. Have any of those measures which you recommended been carried into effect?--The Portuguese have been driven from Bulama, and a much more effectual method of cruizing has been followed; very superior vessels have been employed.
5196. Have you now any doubt of the propriety of continuing our policy?--Certainly not: with regard to cruizing under the present system, I would propose increasing the force still, and employing a certain number of steam-vessels; indeed, there are several measures that I might propose. The occupation of Bulama was referred to; I think that would be an important measure; it was urged very strongly in that despatch to which I have been referred, and the commander of the Brisk, Captain Kellett, then for the first time visited the place, and drove the Portuguese slave traders from it, and carried away the slaves who were kept in the barracoons there. Another proposition was, sending home foreign crews, and perhaps I may be allowed to read the passage containing it:--“The only other suggestion which we shall at present offer is, the adoption of means to secure the punishment of persons implicated in slave trade adventures. As things are now managed, the confiscation of a slave vessel affects only the owner or the underwriters; and the parties who navigate the condemned vessel are constantly seen to embark again, on a second illegal voyage, a few days after the termination of the first. The complete personal impunity which attends the agents by whom illegal slave trade is carried on, combined with the high wages by which their services are secured, renders the slave trade, notwithstanding all its inconveniences, the most desirable employment for the Spanish and Portuguese sailor. On this subject we beg leave to refer your Lordship to Class A., 1824-1825, pages 142 and 143; and to Class A., 1836, pages 217 and 218. The plan which we now propose for adoption, with regard to slave vessels captured on this coast, and condemned at Sierra Leone, is applicable, with some modifications, to similar seizures in other parts of the world; but its effect may be tried here in the first instance. Both the Portuguese and Spanish treaties require that the captain, and a part, at least, of the crew, of a captured slave ship should be left on board; and this clause, whilst it sanctions the present almost invariable practice of sending up only the master, and one or two of the seamen, of a detained vessel, as witnesses before the mixed courts, and landing the remainder of the crew, as soon as possible, at the nearest or most convenient port, equally permits the detention of the whole of the crew, if it should be thought necessary, and we now beg leave to recommend the latter course, with a view to ulterior proceedings against all the guilty parties. The hulk already fixed at Sierra Leone may be used as a temporary receptacle for such prisoners; and one small steamer, or vessel of war, might be constantly employed in conveying the prisoners from this place to England, to obtain the orders of Her Majesty’s Government as to their delivery, at Lisbon (if Portuguese), or at Cadiz or some other port (if Spanish). Portugal and Spain are both bound by treaty, as well as by their own law, to punish their respective subjects, ‘who may participate in an illicit traffic in slaves,’ and ‘to assimilate, as much as possible, their legislation in this respect to that of Great Britain;’ and those powers will thus enjoy the opportunity of fulfilling their obligations. The punishment of the guilty persons might be strongly urged by the British ambassadors; but whether punished or not, we are persuaded that a more severe blow would be given by this proceeding to foreign slave trade than it has ever yet received. No less than 687 Spanish and Portuguese sailors were engaged in navigating the 30 vessels which came before us last year. All these men have long since returned to their former occupation; but had they been withdrawn, as we propose, from their old haunts and pursuits, carried to Europe far from their slave trading connexions, fined, imprisoned, and otherwise punished, and left to find their way back as best they could to Cuba and Brazil, the alarm which would have been thereby caused amongst the many thousands of seamen engaged in the same manner, would have done more to check and injure the illegal traffic than any means that have been adopted for the last twenty years.”
5197. Mr. _Forster_.] In the paper you have just read, the necessity of increased measures for the punishment of the crews of slave vessels is alluded to; you are not aware, probably, that it is in evidence before this Committee, that those crews, being landed on the coast at the nearest point to that at which the capture took place, not above one in ten of them escape death from destitution and want, in which case you would probably think the punishment sufficient?--I was not aware of the fact; but still I would have _that one_ sent home.
5198. _Chairman._] You would rather have the regular punishment of the sailors?--A total withdrawal of the men from the place where their slave trading occupation leads them, even if they are not punished in Portugal and Spain, would have a good effect; they would be withdrawn so completely from the line of their ordinary business, that the expense of their finding their way to the Havannah or the Brazils would deter them from engaging in such voyages, except at extravagantly high wages.
5199. Mr. _Aldam_.] Why could not they work their way back?--But they still would be losing the enormous wages that they would obtain on board a slave ship.
5200. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Do you happen to know the wages given on board the slave ships?--They vary a little; but the wages of a common sailor I have known to be 5_l._ a month. I should say a common seaman on board one of those vessels would obtain, taking the value which the slaves fetch, 7_l._ or 8_l._ a month on a successful voyage.
5201. Of course, those sailors undertake those voyages, and obtain that enormous remuneration on account of the danger they run to life and limb, from coming into the hands of our cruizers?--Yes; English sailors would, until lately, have been hung if we caught them on board a slave vessel, and, therefore, we see no English sailors in that trade; but you would have men of all nations volunteer into it, if it were not for the danger they ran.
5202. There is nothing in the trade itself, except the danger that they run from our cruizers, which would lead to such enormous wages?--Nothing whatever; they may be exposed to very great inconveniences, and if you increase the inconveniences in the way I proposed, the wages would double, probably; the rate of wages depends upon the danger and inconvenience.
5203. Do you think that all the parties usually engaged in the slave trade are perfectly aware that they run the risk of being put on shore in case of capture, and of having to undergo great peril of their lives before they can return to their homes?--It is known in all the slaving ports; it has been the universal practice ever since the cruizers were on the station to land the crews; indeed it cannot be otherwise with the small vessels that we have on the coast. To venture to take fifty or sixty scoundrels like the crews of those vessels, on board such a ship, would be madness.
5204. Have you had your attention called to the very great hardship which some of those crews have sustained when put on shore?--It has not come before me in any way whatever; I have no knowledge of it at all; I attended this Committee some time ago, and I heard of one case, where it was mentioned that they were starved, but that is the only case I have heard of.
5205. Can you suggest any alteration by which they could be put on shore and subjected to very great personal inconvenience, without the dreadful loss of life that we have heard of?--I think they were as badly off when they were landed at Prince’s, which is a Portuguese settlement, as they are at any other place.
5206. Would it increase the expenses very materially, or be a very material inconvenience, to fix upon certain points of the coast at which the crews could be landed before the vessels were sent to Sierra Leone for judgment?--I do not think it could be done; it would take the cruizer out of his ground, and would inconvenience him greatly; the object is to keep the vessel efficient for the cruize, and keep him on the ground; an empty vessel might run out, in order to be taken, while the full slaver got away.
5207. If the regulation were adopted, that a cruizer taking a slaver in certain districts, which should be detained, should be obliged to land the crew at particular places; would that be practicable?--I do not think it is possible.
5208. Mr. _Forster_.] Independently of the feeling of humanity towards the crews themselves, do you not think that the example of such treatment must have a very bad effect in the eyes of the natives of the coast of Africa, as showing them an example of inhumanity on the part of those who profess to be acting solely in that way from motives of humanity?--I have never known a cruizer act inhumanly; I heard of one case the other day, where they were starved, but it was stated in that case that it was owing to the refusal of the Portuguese factories to support them.
5209. Mr. _Stuart Wortley_.] In the paper you have read, it was stated that there were 687 sailors engaged in navigating 30 slave vessels; a short time since you stated that with respect to ships condemned at Sierra Leone, there were seldom more than three or four connected with the navigation of a vessel; will you reconcile those two statements?--They only leave those three or four on board; they land all but those who are required as witnesses at Sierra Leone.
5210. There are no individuals belonging to the slave crew retained on board?--None, but those who are required as witnesses.
5211. Then those individuals of whom you spoke, as being charges against the vessel, were individuals retained as witnesses?--Yes.
5212. _Chairman._] Do you think that the price paid to the Spanish or Portuguese Governments, as the case might be, would suffice for the maintenance of the crews of those vessels?--Yes, it would be only rationing them for the voyage across.
5213. And paying for their passage?--Now we pay continually out of the foreign moiety for the passage; at least the commissariat does.
5214. That is for the captain and mate; but here you are supposing several hundred instead of 20 or 30?--The rationing of the commissariat commences the moment we cease to have any thing to do with the vessel; the day the vessel is condemned, there is given to the commissary a list of the men who will come upon him for rations, and as long as they remain in the colony they will come upon him daily; when a number of vessels have been captured, and at one time we had 37 vessels lying in the harbour at the same time, they would cause a great drain upon the provisions, which are sent out only to meet ordinary contingencies; in that case the commissary went to the expense of hiring vessels to send those men away, and charged those expenses, in the same way as he would have done the rations, against the share of the foreign government.
5215. If you brought the crew to Sierra Leone you would increase the expense of maintenance very considerably?--Yes.
5216. You still consider that the moiety given to the foreign government would cover such expenses?--Yes, if vessels continued to be taken as they have been in the last few years, they would do so certainly. The only case in which I should conceive that the expense would exceed the moiety, is where very few vessels are condemned, and where you would have to run across with a very few passengers.
5217. This could be done by the existing treaty, without the necessity for any fresh negotiation?--Yes.
5218. Captain _Fitzroy_.] What becomes of the remainder of that moiety which goes to the foreign government, the part which is not used in paying for the maintenance of those men?--I believe there are always accounts going on between the governments at home, and it is used in England in some way that I am not aware of; the Treasury disposes of it either by paying it over to the agent of the foreign government here, or in some other way.
5219. Is the foreign moiety paid to our Government?--The whole of it is paid to the commissary at Sierra Leone; he has accounts with the Treasury; there are regular accounts which are made up as between the British Government and the foreign government, showing the exact sum that is due by the English Government to the foreign Government for their moiety.
5220. Mr. _W. Patten_.] Looking to the general nature of the vessels that are sold at Sierra Leone, do you think that they would bring by auction as large a price if sold in the West Indies, as they would sold at Sierra Leone?--Yes, I think they would.