Part 18

For one, I am not satisfied with the government of this world, and I am going to do what little I can

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to make it better. I want more thought and less fear, more manhood and less superstition, less prayer and more help, more education, more reason, more intellectual hospitality, and above all, and over all, more liberty and kindness.

_Question_. Do you think that God, if there be one, when he saves or damns a man, will take into con- sideration all the circumstances of the man's life?

_Answer_. Suppose that two orphan boys, James and John, are given homes. James is taken into a Christian family and John into an infidel. James becomes a Christian, and dies in the faith. John be- comes an infidel, and dies without faith in Christ. According to the Christian religion, as commonly preached, James will go to heaven, and John to hell.

Now, suppose that God knew that if James had been raised by the infidel family, he would have died an infidel, and that if John had been raised by the Christian family, he would have died a Christian. What then? Recollect that the boys did not choose the families in which they were placed.

Suppose that a child, cast away upon an island in which he found plenty of food, grew to manhood; and suppose that after he had reached mature years,

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the island was visited by a missionary who taught a false religion; and suppose that this islander was con- vinced that he ought to worship a wooden idol; and suppose, further, that the worship consisted in sacri- ficing animals; and suppose the islander, actuated only by what he conceived to be his duty and by thankfulness, sacrificed a toad every night and every morning upon the altar of his wooden god; that when the sky looked black and threatening he sacri- ficed two toads; that when feeling unwell he sacrificed three; and suppose that in all this he was honest, that he really believed that the shedding of toad-blood would soften the heart of his god toward him? And suppose that after he had become fully-convinced of the truth of his religion, a missionary of the "true religion" should visit the island, and tell the history of the Jews--unfold the whole scheme of salvation? And suppose that the islander should honestly reject the true religion? Suppose he should say that he had "internal evidence" not only, but that many miracles had been performed by his god, in his behalf; that often when the sky was black with storm, he had sacrificed a toad, and in a few moments the sun was again visible, the heavens blue, and without a cloud; that on several occasions, having

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forgotten at evening to sacrifice his toad, he found himself unable to sleep--that his conscience smote him, he had risen, made the sacrifice, returned to his bed, and in a few moments sunk into a serene and happy slumber? And suppose, further, that the man honestly believed that the efficacy of the sacrifice depended largely on the size of the toad? Now suppose that in this belief the man had died,--what then?

It must be remembered that God knew when the missionary of the false religion went to the island; and knew that the islander would be convinced of the truth of the false religion; and he also knew that the missionary of the true religion could not, by any possibility, convince the islander of the error of his way; what then?

If God is infinite, we cannot speak of him as making efforts, as being tired. We cannot con- sistently say that one thing is easy to him, and another thing is hard, providing both are possible. This being so, why did not God reveal himself to every human being? Instead of having an inspired book, why did he not make inspired folks? Instead of having his commandments put on tables of stone, why did he not write them on each human brain?

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Why was not the mind of each man so made that every religious truth necessary to his salvation was an axiom?

Do we not know absolutely that man is greatly influenced by his surroundings? If Mr. Talmage had been born in Turkey, is it not probable that he would now be a whirling Dervish? If he had first seen the light in Central Africa, he might now have been prostrate before some enormous serpent; if in India, he might have been a Brahmin, running a prayer-machine; if in Spain, he would probably have been a priest, with his beads and holy water. Had he been born among the North American Indians, he would speak of the "Great Spirit," and solemnly smoke the the pipe of peace.

Mr. Talmage teaches that it is the duty of children to perpetuate the errors of their parents; conse- quently, the religion of his parents determined his theology. It is with him not a question of reason, but of parents; not a question of argument, but of filial affection. He does not wish to be a philoso- pher, but an obedient son. Suppose his father had been a Catholic, and his mother a Protestant,--what then? Would he show contempt for his mother by following the path of his father; or would he show

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disrespect for his father, by accepting the religion of his mother; or would he have become a Protestant with Catholic proclivities, or a Catholic with Protest- ant leanings? Suppose his parents had both been infidels--what then?

Is it not better for each one to decide honestly for himself? Admitting that your parents were good and kind; admitting that they were honest in their views, why not have the courage to say, that in your opinion, father and mother were both mistaken? No one can honor his parents by being a hypocrite, or an intellectu- al coward. Whoever is absolutely true to himself, is true to his parents, and true to the whole world. Who- ever is untrue to himself, is false to all mankind. Re- ligion must be an individual matter. If there is a God, and if there is a day of judgment, the church that a man belongs to will not be tried, but the man will be tried.

It is a fact that the religion of most people was made for them by others; that they have accepted certain dogmas, not because they have examined them, but because they were told that they were true. Most of the people in the United States, had they been born in Turkey, would now be Mohammedans, and most of the Turks, had they been born in Spain, would now be Catholics.

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It is almost, if not quite, impossible for a man to rise entirely above the ideas, views, doctrines and re- ligions of his tribe or country. No one expects to find philosophers in Central Africa, or scientists among the Fejees. No one expects to find philoso- phers or scientists in any country where the church has absolute control.

If there is an infinitely good and wise God, of course he will take into consideration the surround- ings of every human being. He understands the philosophy of environment, and of heredity. He knows exactly the influence of the mother, of all associates, of all associations. He will also take into consideration the amount, quality and form of each brain, and whether the brain was healthy or diseased. He will take into consideration the strength of the passions, the weakness of the judgment. He will know exactly the force of all temptation--what was resisted. He will take an account of every effort made in the right direction, and will understand all the winds and waves and quicksands and shores and shallows in, upon and around the sea of every life.

My own opinion is, that if such a being exists, and all these things are taken into consideration, we will

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be absolutely amazed to see how small the difference is between the "good" and the "bad." Certainly there is no such difference as would justify a being of infinite wisdom and benevolence in rewarding one with eternal joy and punishing the other with eternal pain.

_Question_. What are the principal reasons that have satisfied you that the Bible is not an inspired book?

_Answer_. The great evils that have afflicted this world are:

_First_. Human slavery--where men have bought and sold their fellow-men--sold babes from mothers, and have practiced) every conceivable cruelty upon the helpless.

_Second_. Polygamy--an institution that destroys the home, that treats woman as a simple chattel, that does away with the sanctity of marriage, and with all that is sacred in love.

_Third_. Wars of conquest and extermination-- by which nations have been made the food of the sword.

_Fourth_. The idea entertained by each nation that all other nations are destitute of rights--in other

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words, patriotism founded upon egotism, prejudice, and love of plunder.

_Fifth_. Religious persecution.

_Sixth_. The divine right of kings--an idea that rests upon the inequality of human rights, and insists that people should be governed without their con- sent; that the right of one man to govern another comes from God, and not from the consent of the governed. This is caste--one of the most odious forms of slavery.

_Seventh_. A belief in malicious supernatural be- ings--devils, witches, and wizards.

_Eighth_. A belief in an infinite being who or- dered, commanded, established and approved all these evils.

_Ninth_. The idea that one man can be good for another, or bad for another--that is to say, that one can be rewarded for the goodness of another, or justly punished for the sins of another.

_Tenth_. The dogma that a finite being can commit an infinite sin, and thereby incur the eternal dis- pleasure of an infinitely good being, and be justly subjected to eternal torment.

My principal objection to the Bible is that it sus- tains all of these ten evils--that it is the advocate of

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human slavery, the friend of polygamy; that within its pages I find the command to wage wars of ex- termination; that I find also that the Jews were taught to hate foreigners--to consider all human beings as inferior to themselves; I also find persecu- tion commanded as a religious duty; that kings were seated upon their thrones by the direct act of God, and that to rebel against a king was rebellion against God. I object to the Bible also because I find within its pages the infamous spirit of caste--I see the sons of Levi set apart as the perpetual beggars and governors of a people; because I find the air filled with demons seeking to injure and betray the sons of men; because this book is the fountain of modern superstition, the bulwark of tyranny and the fortress of caste. This book also subverts the idea of justice by threatening infinite punishment for the sins of a finite being.

At the same time, I admit--as I always have ad- mitted--that there are good passages in the Bible-- good laws, good teachings, with now and then a true line of history. But when it is asserted that every word was written by inspiration--that a being of in- finite wisdom and goodness is its author,--then I raise the standard of revolt.

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_Question_. What do you think of the declaration of Mr. Talmage that the Bible will be read in heaven throughout all the endless ages of eternity?

_Answer_. Of course I know but very little as to what is or will be done in heaven. My knowledge of that country is somewhat limited, and it may be possible that the angels will spend most of their time in turning over the sacred leaves of the Old Testa- ment. I can not positively deny the statement of the Reverend Mr. Talmage as I have but very little idea as to how the angels manage to kill time.

The Reverend Mr. Spurgeon stated in a sermon that some people wondered what they would do through all eternity in heaven. He said that, as for himself, for the first hundred thousand years he would look at the wound in one of the Savior's feet, and for the next hundred thousand years he would look at the wound in his other foot, and for the next hundred thousand years he would look at the wound in one of his hands, and for the next hundred thousand years he would look at the wound in the other hand, and for the next hundred thousand years he would look at the wound in his side.

Surely, nothing could be more delightful than this

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A man capable of being happy in such employment, could of course take great delight in reading even the genealogies of the Old Testament. It is very easy to see what a glow of joy would naturally over- spread the face of an angel while reading the history of the Jewish wars, how the seraphim and cherubim would clasp their rosy palms in ecstasy over the fate of Korah and his company, and what laughter would wake the echoes of the New Jerusalem as some one told again the story of the children and the bears; and what happy groups, with folded pinions, would smilingly listen to the 109th Psalm.

An orthodox "state of mind"

THE TALMAGIAN CATECHISM.

_As Mr. Talmage delivered the series of sermons referred to in these interviews, for the purpose of furnishing arguments to the young, so that they might not be misled by the sophistry of modern infi-delity, I have thought it best to set forth, for use in Sunday schools, the pith and marrow of what he has been pleased to say, in the form of_

A SHORTER CATECHISM.

_Question_. Who made you?

_Answer_. Jehovah, the original Presbyterian.

_Question_. What else did he make?

_Answer_. He made the world and all things.

_Question_. Did he make the world out of nothing?

_Answer_. No.

_Question_. What did he make it out of?

_Answer_. Out of his "omnipotence." Many infidels have pretended that if God made the universe, and if there was nothing until he did make it, he had nothing to make it out of. Of course this is perfectly absurd when we remember that he always had his "omnipo- tence and that is, undoubtedly, the material used.

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_Question_. Did he create his own "omnipotence"?

_Answer_. Certainly not, he was always omnipo- tent.

_Question_. Then if he always had "omnipotence," he did not "create" the material of which the uni- verse is made; he simply took a portion of his "omnipotence" and changed it to "universe"?

_Answer_. Certainly, that is the way I under- stand it.

_Question_. Is he still omnipotent, and has he as much "omnipotence" now as he ever had?

_Answer_. Well, I suppose he has.

_Question_. How long did it take God to make the universe?

_Answer_. Six "good-whiles."

_Question_. How long is a "good-while"?

_Answer_. That will depend upon the future dis- coveries of geologists. "Good-whiles" are of such a nature that they can be pulled out, or pushed up; and it is utterly impossible for any infidel, or scien- tific geologist, to make any period that a "good-while" won't fit.

_Question_. What do you understand by "the "morning and evening" of a "good-while"?

_Answer_. Of course the words "morning and

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"evening" are used figuratively, and mean simply the beginning and the ending, of each "good-while."

_Question_. On what day did God make vegetation?

_Answer_. On the third day.

_Question_. Was that before the sun was made?

_Answer_. Yes; a "good-while" before.

_Question_. How did vegetation grow without sun- light?

_Answer_. My own opinion is, that it was either "nourished by the glare of volcanoes in the moon or "it may have gotten sufficient light from rivers "of molten granite;" or, "sufficient light might have "been emitted by the crystallization of rocks." It has been suggested that light might have been fur- nished by fire-flies and phosphorescent bugs and worms, but this I regard as going too far.

_Question_. Do you think that light emitted by rocks would be sufficient to produce trees?

_Answer_. Yes, with the assistance of the "Aurora "Borealis, or even the Aurora Australis;" but with both, most assuredly.

_Question_. If the light of which you speak was sufficient, why was the sun made?

_Answer_. To keep time with.

_Question_. What did God make man of?

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_Answer_. He made man of dust and "omnipo- "tence."

_Question_. Did he make a woman at the same time that he made a man?

_Answer_. No; he thought at one time to avoid the necessity of making a woman, and he caused all the animals to pass before Adam, to see what he would call them, and to see whether a fit companion could be found for him. Among them all, not one suited Adam, and Jehovah immediately saw that he would have to make an help-meet on purpose.

_Question_. What was woman made of?

_Answer_. She was made out of "man's side, out of his right side," and some more "omnipotence." Infi- dels say that she was made out of a rib, or a bone, but that is because they do not understand Hebrew.

_Question_. What was the object of making woman out of man's side?

_Answer_. So that a young man would think more of a neighbor's girl than of his own uncle or grand- father.

_Question_. What did God do with Adam and Eve after he got them done?

_Answer_. He put them into a garden to see what they would do.

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_Question_. Do we know where the Garden of Eden was, and have we ever found any place where a "river parted and became into four heads"?

_Answer_. We are not certain where this garden was, and the river that parted into four heads cannot at present be found. Infidels have had a great deal to say about these four rivers, but they will wish they had even one, one of these days.

_Question_. What happened to Adam and Eve in the garden?

_Answer_. They were tempted by a snake who was an exceedingly good talker, and who probably came in walking on the end of his tail. This supposition is based upon the fact that, as a punishment, he was condemned to crawl on his belly. Before that time, of course, he walked upright.

_Question_. What happened then?

_Answer_. Our first parents gave way, ate of the forbidden fruit, and in consequence, disease and death entered the world. Had it not been for this, there would have been no death and no disease. Suicide would have been impossible, and a man could have been blown into a thousand atoms by dynamite, and the pieces would immediately have come together again. Fire would have refused to

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burn and water to drown; there could have been no hunger, no thirst; all things would have been equally healthy.

_Question_. Do you mean to say that there would have been no death in the world, either of animals, insects, or persons?

_Answer_. Of course.

_Question_. Do you also think that all briers and thorns sprang from the same source, and that had the apple not been eaten, no bush in the world would have had a thorn, and brambles and thistles would have been unknown?

_Answer_. Certainly.

_Question_. Would there have been no poisonous plants, no poisonous reptiles?

_Answer_. No, sir; there would have been none; there would have been no evil in the world if Adam and Eve had not partaken of the forbidden fruit.

_Question_. Was the snake who tempted them to eat, evil?

_Answer_. Certainly. '

_Question_. Was he in the world before the for- bidden fruit was eaten?

_Answer_. Of course he was; he tempted them to eat it

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_Question_. How, then, do you account for the fact that, before the forbidden fruit was eaten, an evil serpent was in the world?

_Answer_. Perhaps apples had been eaten in other worlds.

_Question_. Is it not wonderful that such awful con- sequences flowed from so small an act?

_Answer_. It is not for you to reason about it; you should simply remember that God is omnipotent. There is but one way to answer these things, and that is to admit their truth. Nothing so puts the Infinite out of temper as to see a human being impudent enough to rely upon his reason. The moment we rely upon our reason, we abandon God, and try to take care of ourselves. Whoever relies entirely upon God, has no need of reason, and reason has no need of him.

_Question_. Were our first parents under the im- mediate protection of an infinite God?

_Answer_. They were.

_Question_. Why did he not protect them? Why did he not warn them of this snake? Why did he not put them on their guard? Why did he not make them so sharp, intellectually, that they could not be deceived? Why did he not destroy that

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snake; or how did he come to make him; what did he make him for?

_Answer_. You must remember that, although God made Adam and Eve perfectly good, still he was very anxious to test them. He also gave them the power of choice, knowing at the same time exactly what they would choose, and knowing that he had made them so that they must choose in a certain way. A being of infinite wisdom tries experiments. Knowing ex- actly what will happen, he wishes to see if it will.

_Question_. What punishment did God inflict upon Adam and Eve for the sin of having eaten the for- bidden fruit?

_Answer_. He pronounced a curse upon the woman, saying that in sorrow she should bring forth children, and that her husband should rule over her; that she, having tempted her husband, was made his slave; and through her, all married women have been de- prived of their natural liberty. On account of the sin of Adam and Eve, God cursed the ground, saying that it should bring forth thorns and thistles, and that man should eat his bread in sorrow, and that he should eat the herb of the field.

_Question_. Did he turn them out of the garden because of their sin?

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_Answer_. No. The reason God gave for turning them out of the garden was: "Behold the man is "become as one of us, to know good and evil; and "now, lest he put forth his hand and take of the "tree of life and eat and live forever, therefore, the "Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden "to till the ground from whence he was taken."

_Question_. If the man had eaten of the tree of life, would he have lived forever?

_Answer_. Certainly.

_Question_. Was he turned out to prevent his eating?

_Answer_. He was.

_Question_. Then the Old Testament tells us how we lost immortality, not that we are immortal, does it?

_Answer_. Yes; it tells us how we lost it.

_Question_. Was God afraid that Adam and Eve might get back into the garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life?

_Answer_. I suppose he was, as he placed "cher- "ubim and a flaming sword which turned every "way to guard the tree of life."

_Question_. Has any one ever seen any of these cherubim?

_Answer_. Not that I know of.

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_Question_. Where is the flaming sword now?

_Answer_. Some angel has it in heaven.

_Question_. Do you understand that God made coats of skins, and clothed Adam and Eve when he turned them out of the garden?

_Answer_. Yes, sir.

_Question_. Do you really believe that the infinite God killed some animals, took their skins from them, cut out and sewed up clothes for Adam and Eve?

_Answer_. The Bible says so; we know that he had patterns for clothes, because he showed some to Moses on Mount Sinai.

_Question_. About how long did God continue to pay particular attention to his children in this world?

_Answer_. For about fifteen hundred years; and some of the people lived to be nearly a thousand years of age.

_Question_. Did this God establish any schools or institutions of learning? Did he establish any church? Did he ordain any ministers, or did he have any re- vivals?

_Answer_. No; he allowed the world to go on pretty much in its own way. He did not even keep his own boys at home. They came down and made

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love to the daughters of men, and finally the world got exceedingly bad.

_Question_. What did God do then?

_Answer_. He made up his mind that he would drown them. You see they were all totally depraved,--in every joint and sinew of their bodies, in every drop of their blood, and in every thought of their brains.

_Question_. Did he drown them all?

_Answer_. No, he saved eight, to start with again.

_Question_. Were these eight persons totally de- praved?

_Answer_. Yes.

_Question_. Why did he not kill them, and start over again with a perfect pair? Would it not have been better to have had his flood at first, before he made anybody, and drowned the snake?

_Answer_. "God's way are not our ways;" and besides, you must remember that "a thousand years "are as one day" with God.

_Question_. How did God destroy the people?