Part 1

Produced by David Widger

THE WORKS OF Robert G. Ingersoll

"There Can Be But Little Liberty On Earth While Men Worship A Tyrant In Heaven."

In Twelve Volumes, Volume V.

DISCUSSIONS

1900

DRESDEN EDITION

CONTENTS OF VOLUME V.

SIX INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE.

(1882.)

Preface--First Interview: Great Men as Witnesses to the Truth of the Gospel--No man should quote the Words of Another unless he is willing to Accept all the Opinions of that Man--Reasons of more Weight than Reputations--Would a general Acceptance of Unbelief fill the Penitentiaries?-- My Creed--Most Criminals Orthodox--Relig-ion and Morality not Necessarily Associates--On the Creation of the Universe out of Omnipotence--Mr. Talmage's Theory about the Pro-duction of Light prior to the Creation of the Sun--The Deluge and the Ark--Mr. Talmage's tendency to Belittle the Bible Miracles--His Chemical, Geological, and Agricultural Views--His Disregard of Good Manners- -Second Interview: An Insulting Text--God's Design in Creating Guiteau to be the Assassin of Garfield--Mr. Talmage brings the Charge of Blasphemy--Some Real Blasphemers--The Tabernacle Pastor tells the exact Opposite of the Truth about Col. Ingersoll's Attitude toward the Circulation of Immoral Books--"Assassinating" God--Mr. Talmage finds Nearly All the Invention of Modern Times Mentioned in the Bible--The Reverend Gentleman corrects the Translators of the Bible in the Matter of the Rib Story--Denies that Polygamy is permitted by the Old Testament--His De-fence of Queen Victoria and Violation of the Grave of George Eliot--Exhibits a Christian Spirit--Third Interview: Mr. Talmage's Partiality in the Bestowal of his Love--Denies the Right of Laymen to Examine the Scriptures--Thinks the Infidels Victims of Bibliophobia --He explains the Stopping of the Sun and Moon at the Command of Joshua-- Instances a Dark Day in the Early Part of the Century--Charges that Holy Things are Made Light of--Reaffirms his Confidence in the Whale and Jonah Story--The Commandment which Forbids the making of Graven Images--Affirmation that the Bible is the Friend of Woman--The Present Condition of Woman--Fourth Interview: Colonel Ingersoll Compared by Mr. Talmage tojehoiakim, who Consigned Writings of Jeremiah to the Flames--An Intimation that Infidels wish to have all copies of the Bible Destroyed by Fire--Laughter Deprecated--Col. Ingersoll Accused of Denouncing his Father--Mr. Talmage holds that a Man may be Perfectly Happy in Heaven with His Mother in Hell- -Challenges the Infidel to Read a Chapter from St. John--On the "Chief Solace of the World"--Dis- covers an Attempt is being made to Put Out the Light-houses of the Farther Shore--Affirms our Debt to Christianity for Schools, Hospitals, etc.--Denies that Infidels have ever Done any Good--

Fifth Interview: Inquiries if Men gather Grapes of Thorns, or Figs of Thistles, and is Answered in the Negative--Resents the Charge that the Bible is a Cruel Book--Demands to Know where the Cruelty of the Bible Crops out in the Lives of Christians-- Col. Ingersoll Accused of saying that the Bible is a Collection of Polluted Writings--Mr. Talmage Asserts the Orchestral Harmony of the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, and Repudiates the Theory of Contradictions--His View of Mankind Indicated in Quotations from his Confession of Faith--He Insists that the Bible is Scientific-- Traces the New Testament to its Source with St. John--Pledges his Word that no Man ever Died for a Lie Cheerfully and Triumphantly--As to Prophecies and Predictions--Alleged "Prophetic" Fate of the Jewish People--Sixth Interview: Dr. Talmage takes the Ground that the Unrivalled Circulation of the Bible Proves that it is Inspired--Forgets' that a Scientific Fact does not depend on the Vote of Numbers--Names some Christian Millions--His Arguments Characterized as the Poor-est, Weakest, and Best Possible in Support of the Doctrine of Inspira-tion--Will God, in Judging a Man, take into Consideration the Cir-cumstances of that Man's Life?--Satisfactory Reasons for Not Believ- ing that the Bible is inspired.

THE TALMAGIAN CATECHISM.

The Pith and Marrow of what Mr. Talmage has been Pleased to Say, set forth in the form of a Shorter Catechism.

A VINDICATION OF THOMAS PAINE.

(1877.)

Letter to the New York Observer--An Offer to Pay One Thousand Dollars in Gold for Proof that Thomas Paine or Voltaire Died in Terror because of any Religious Opinions Either had Expressed-- Proposition to Create a Tribunal to Hear the Evidence--The Ob-server, after having Called upon Col. Ingersoll to Deposit the Money, and Characterized his Talk as "Infidel 'Buncombe,'" Denies its Own Words, but attempts to Prove them-- Its Memory Refreshed by Col. Ingersoll and the Slander Refuted--Proof that Paine did Not Recant - -Testimony of Thomas Nixon, Daniel Pelton, Mr. Jarvis, B. F. Has-kin, Dr. Manley, Amasa Woodsworth, Gilbert Vale, Philip Graves, M. D., Willet Hicks, A. C. Hankinson, John Hogeboom, W. J. Hilton, Tames Cheetham, Revs. Milledollar and Cunningham, Mrs. Hedden, Andrew A. Dean, William Carver,--The Statements of Mary Roscoe and Mary Hindsdale Examined--William Cobbett's Account of a Call upon Mary Hinsdale--Did Thomas Paine live the Life of a Drunken Beast, and did he Die a Drunken, Cowardly, and Beastly Death?--Grant Thorbum's Charges Examined--Statement of the Rev. J. D. Wickham, D.D., shown to be Utterly False--False Witness of the Rev. Charles Hawley, D.D.--W. H. Ladd, James Cheetham, and Mary Hinsdale--Paine's Note to Cheetham--Mr-Staple, Mr. Purdy, Col. John Fellows, James Wilburn, Walter Morton, Clio Rickman, Judge Herttell, H. Margary, Elihu Palmer, Mr.

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Lovett, all these Testified that Paine was a Temperate Man--Washington's Letter to Paine-- Thomas Jefferson's--Adams and Washing-ton on "Common Sense"---James Monroe's Tribute-- Quotations from Paine--Paine's Estate and His Will--The Observer's Second Attack (p. 492): Statements of Elkana Watson, William Carver, Rev. E. F. Hatfield, D.D., James Cheetham, Dr. J. W. Francis, Dr. Manley, Bishop Fenwick--Ingersoll's Second Reply (p. 516): Testimony Garbled by the Editor of the Observer--Mary Roscoeand Mary Hins- dale the Same Person--Her Reputation for Veracity- -Letter from Rev. A. W. Cornell--Grant Thorburn Exposed by James Parton--The Observer's Admission that Paine did not Recant--Affidavit of

William B. Barnes.

PREFACE.

SEVERAL people, having read the sermons of Mr. Talmage in which he reviews some of my lectures, have advised me not to pay the slightest attention to the Brooklyn divine. They think that no new arguments have been brought forward, and they have even gone so far as to say that some of the best of the old ones have been left out.

After thinking the matter over, I became satisfied that my friends were mistaken, that they had been car- ried away by the general current of modern thought, and were not in a frame of mind to feel the force of the arguments of Mr. Talmage, or to clearly see the candor that characterizes his utterances.

At the first reading, the logic of these sermons does not impress you. The style is of a character calculated

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to throw the searcher after facts and arguments off his guard. The imagination of the preacher is so lurid; he is so free from the ordinary forms of ex- pression; his statements are so much stranger than truth, and his conclusions so utterly independent of his premises, that the reader is too astonished to be convinced. Not until I had read with great care the six discourses delivered for my benefit had I any clear and well-defined idea of the logical force of Mr. Talmage. I had but little conception of his candor, was almost totally ignorant of his power to render the simple complex and the plain obscure by the mutilation of metaphor and the incoherence of inspired declamation. Neither did I know the generous accuracy with which he states the position of an opponent, and the fairness he exhibits in a religious discussion.

He has without doubt studied the Bible as closely and critically as he has the works of Buckle and Darwin, and he seems to have paid as much attention to scientific subjects as most theologians. His theory of light and his views upon geology are strikingly original, and his astronomical theories are certainly as profound as practical. If his statements can be relied upon, he has successfully refuted the teachings of

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Humboldt and Haeckel, and exploded the blunders of Spencer and Tyndall. Besides all this, he has the courage of his convictions--he does not quail before a fact, and he does not strike his colors even to a dem- onstration. He cares nothing for human experience. He cannot be put down with statistics, nor driven from his position by the certainties of science. He cares neither for the persistence of force, nor the indestructibility of matter.

He believes in the Bible, and he has the bravery to defend his belief. In this, he proudly stands almost alone. He knows that the salvation of the world depends upon a belief in his creed. He knows that what are called "the sciences" are of no importance in the other world. He clearly sees that it is better to live and die ignorant here, if you can wear a crown of glory hereafter. He knows it is useless to be perfectly familiar with all the sciences in this world, and then in the next "lift up your eyes, being in torment." He knows, too, that God will not punish any man for denying a fact in science. A man can deny the rotundity of the earth, the attraction of gravitation, the form of the earths orbit, or the nebular hypothesis, with perfect impunity. He is not bound to be correct upon any philo-

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sophical subject. He is at liberty to deny and ridi- cule the rule of three, conic sections, and even the multiplication table. God permits every human being to be mistaken upon every subject but one. No man can lose his soul by denying physical facts. Jehovah does not take the slightest pride in his geology,

or in his astronomy, or in mathematics, or in any school of philosophy--he is jealous only of his reputation as the author of the Bible. You may deny everything else in the universe except that book. This being so, Mr. Talmage takes the safe side, and insists that the Bible is inspired. He knows that at the day of judgment, not a scientific question will be asked. He knows that the Hæckels and Huxleys will, on that terrible day, regret that they ever learned to read. He knows that there is no "saving grace" in any department of human knowledge; that mathematics and all the exact sciences and all the philosophies will be worse than useless. He knows that inventors, discoverers, thinkers and investigators, have no claim upon the mercy of Jehovah; that the educated will envy the ignorant, and that the writers and thinkers will curse their books.

He knows that man cannot be saved through what he knows--but only by means of what he

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believes. Theology is not a science. If it were, God would forgive his children for being mistaken about it. If it could be proved like geology, or astronomy, there would be no merit in believing it. From a belief in the Bible, Mr. Talmage is not to be driven by uninspired evidence. He knows that his logic is liable to lead him astray, and that his reason cannot be depended upon. He believes that scien- tific men are no authority in matters concerning which nothing can be known, and he does not wish to put his soul in peril, by examining by the light of reason, the evidences of the supernatural.

He is perfectly consistent with his creed. What happens to us here is of no consequence compared with eternal joy or pain. The ambitions, honors, glories and triumphs of this world, compared with eternal things, are less than naught.

Better a cross here and a crown there, than a feast here and a fire there.

Lazarus was far more fortunate than Dives. The purple and fine linen of this short life are as nothing compared with the robes of the redeemed.

Mr. Talmage knows that philosophy is unsafe-- that the sciences are sirens luring souls to eternal wreck. He knows that the deluded searchers after

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facts are planting thorns in their own pillows--that the geologists are digging pits for themselves, and that the astronomers are robbing their souls of the heaven they explore. He knows that thought, capa- city, and intellectual courage are dangerous, and this belief gives him a feeling of personal security.

The Bible is adapted to the world as it is. Most people are ignorant, and but few have the capacity to comprehend philosophical and scientific subjects, and if salvation depended upon understanding even one of the sciences, nearly everybody would be lost. Mr. Talmage sees that it was exceedingly merciful in God to base salvation on belief instead of on brain. Millions can believe, while only a few can understand. Even the effort to understand is a kind of treason born of pride and ingratitude. This being so, it is far safer, far better, to be credulous than critical. You are offered an infinite reward for believing the Bible. If you examine it you may find it impossible for you to believe it. Consequently, examination is dangerous. Mr. Talmage knows that it is not necessary to under- stand the Bible in order to believe it. You must be- lieve it first. Then, if on reading it you find anything that appears false, absurd, or impossible, you may be sure that it is only an appearance, and that the real

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fault is in yourself. It is certain that persons wholly incapable of reasoning are absolutely safe, and that to be born brainless is to be saved in advance.

Mr. Talmage takes the ground,--and certainly from his point of view nothing can be more reasonable --that thought should be avoided, after one has "experienced religion" and has been the subject of "regeneration." Every sinner should listen to ser- mons, read religious books, and keep thinking, until he becomes a Christian. Then he should stop. After that, thinking is not the road to heaven. The real point and the real difficulty is to stop thinking just at the right time. Young Christians, who have no idea of what they are doing, often go on thinking after joining the church, and in this way heresy is born, and heresy is often the father of infidelity. If Christians would follow the advice and example of Mr. Talmage all disagreements about doctrine would be avoided. In this way the church could secure absolute in- tellectual peace and all the disputes, heartburnings, jealousies and hatreds born of thought, discussion and reasoning, would be impossible.

In the estimation of Mr. Talmage, the man who doubts and examines is not fit for the society of angels. There are no disputes, no discussions in

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heaven. The angels do not think; they believe, they enjoy. The highest form of religion is re- pression. We should conquer the passions and destroy desire. We should control the mind and stop thinking. In this way we "offer ourselves a "living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." When desire dies, when thought ceases, we shall be pure. --This is heaven.

Robert G. Ingersoll.

Washington, D. C,

April; 1882.

INGERSOLL'S INTERVIEWS ON TALMAGE.

FIRST INTERVIEW.

_Polonius. My lord, I will use them according to their desert.

Hamlet. God's bodikins, man, much better: use every man after his desert, and who should 'scape whipping? Use them after your own honor and dignity: the less they deserve, the more merit is in your bounty._

_Question_. Have you read the sermon of

Mr. Talmage, in which he exposes your mis- representations?

_Answer_. I have read such reports as appeared in some of the New York papers.

_Question_. What do you think of what he has to say?

_Answer_. Some time ago I gave it as my opinion of Mr. Talmage that, while he was a man of most excellent judgment, he was somewhat deficient in imagination. I find that he has the disease that seems

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to afflict most theologians, and that is, a kind of intel- lectual toadyism, that uses the names of supposed great men instead of arguments. It is perfectly astonishing to the average preacher that any one should have the temerity to differ, on the subject of theology, with Andrew Jackson, Daniel Webster, and other gentlemen eminent for piety during their lives, but who, as a rule, expressed their theological opinions a few minutes before dissolution. These ministers are per- fectly delighted to have some great politician, some judge, soldier, or president, certify to the truth of the Bible and to the moral character of Jesus Christ.

Mr. Talmage insists that if a witness is false in one particular, his entire testimony must be thrown away. Daniel Webster was in favor of the Fugitive Slave Law, and thought it the duty of the North to capture the poor slave-mother. He was willing to stand between a human being and his freedom. He was willing to assist in compelling persons to work without any pay except such marks of the lash as they might receive. Yet this man is brought forward as a witness for the truth of the gospel. If he was false in his testimony as to liberty, what is his affidavit worth as to the value of Christianity? Andrew Jackson was a brave man, a good general, a patriot second to none,

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an excellent judge of horses, and a brave duelist. I admit that in his old age he relied considerably upon the atonement. I think Jackson was really a very great man, and probably no President impressed himself more deeply upon the American people than the hero of New Orleans, but as a theologian he was, in my judgment, a most decided failure, and his opinion as to the authenticity of the Scriptures is of no earthly value. It was a subject upon which he knew probably as little as Mr. Talmage does about modern infidelity. Thousands of people will quote Jackson in favor of religion, about which he knew nothing, and yet have no confidence in his political opinions, although he devoted the best part of his life to politics.

No man should quote the words of another, in place of an argument, unless he is willing to accept all the opinions of that man. Lord Bacon denied the Copernican

system of astronomy, and, according to Mr. Talmage, having made that mistake, his opinions upon other subjects are equally worthless. Mr. Wesley believed in ghosts, witches, and personal devils, yet upon many subjects I have no doubt his opinions were correct. The truth is, that nearly everybody is right about some things and wrong about most things; and if a man's testimony is not to be taken until he is

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right on every subject, witnesses will be extremely scarce.

Personally, I care nothing about names. It makes no difference to me what the supposed great men of the past have said, except as what they have said contains an argument; and that argument is worth to me the force it naturally has upon my mind. Chris- tians forget that in the realm of reason there are no serfs and no monarchs. When you submit to an argument, you do not submit to the man who made it. Christianity demands a certain obedience, a certain blind, unreasoning faith, and parades before the eyes of the ignorant, with great pomp and pride, the names of kings, soldiers, and statesmen who have admitted the truth of the Bible. Mr. Talmage introduces as a witness the Rev. Theodore Parker. This same The- odore Parker denounced the Presbyterian creed as the most infamous of all creeds, and said that the worst heathen god, wearing a necklace of live snakes, was a representation of mercy when compared with the God of John Calvin. Now, if this witness is false in any particular, of course he cannot be believed, according to Mr. Talmage, upon any subject, and yet Mr. Talmage introduces him upon the stand as a good witness.

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Although I care but little for names, still I will sug- gest that, in all probability, Humboldt knew more upon this subject than all the pastors in the world. I cer- tainly would have as much confidence in the opinion of Goethe as in that of William H. Seward; and as between Seward and Lincoln, I should take Lincoln; and when you come to Presidents, for my part, if I were compelled to pin my faith on the sleeve of any- body, I should take Jefferson's coat in preference to Jackson's. I believe that Haeckel is, to say the least, the equal of any theologian we have in this country, and the late John W. Draper certainly knew as much upon these great questions as the average parson. I believe that Darwin has investigated some of these things, that Tyndall and Huxley have turned their minds somewhat in the same direction, that Helmholtz has a few opinions, and that, in fact, thousands of able, intelligent and honest men differ almost entirely with Webster and Jackson.

So far as I am concerned, I think more of reasons than of reputations, more of principles than of persons, more of nature than of names, more of facts, than of faiths.

It is the same with books as with persons. Proba- bly there is not a book in the world entirely destitute

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of truth, and not one entirely exempt from error. The Bible is like other books. There are mistakes in it, side by side with truths,--passages inculcating murder, and others exalting mercy; laws devilish and tyrannical, and others filled with wisdom and justice. It is foolish to say that if you accept a part, you must accept the whole. You must accept that which com- mends itself to your heart and brain. There never was a doctrine that a witness, or a book, should be thrown entirely away, because false in one particular. If in any particular the book, or the man, tells the truth, to that extent the truth should be accepted.

Truth is made no worse by the one who tells it, and a lie gets no real benefit from the reputation of its author.

_Question_. What do you think of the statement that a general belief in your teachings would fill all the penitentiaries, and that in twenty years there would be a hell in this world worse than the one expected in the other?

_Answer_. My creed is this:

1. Happiness is the only good.

2. The way to be happy, is to make others happy.

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Other things being equal, that man is happiest who is nearest just--who is truthful, merciful and intelligent-- in other words, the one who lives in accordance with the conditions of life.

3. The time to be happy is now, and the place to be happy, is here.

4. Reason is the lamp of the mind--the only torch of progress; and instead of blowing that out and de- pending upon darkness and dogma, it is far better to increase that sacred light.

5. Every man should be the intellectual proprietor of himself, honest with himself, and intellectually hospitable; and upon every brain reason should be enthroned as king.

6. Every man must bear the consequences, at least of his own actions. If he puts his hands in the fire, his hands must smart, and not the hands of another. In other words: each man must eat the fruit of the tree he plants.

I can not conceive that the teaching of these doc- trines would fill penitentiaries, or crowd the gallows. The doctrine of forgiveness--the idea that somebody else can suffer in place of the guilty--the notion that just at the last the whole account can be settled-- these ideas, doctrines, and notions are calculated to fill

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penitentiaries. Nothing breeds extravagance like the credit system.

Most criminals of the present day are orthodox be- lievers, and the gallows seems to be the last round of the ladder reaching from earth to heaven. The Rev. Dr. Sunderland, of this city, in his sermon on the assas- sination of Garfield, takes the ground that God per- mitted the murder for the purpose of opening the eyes of the people to the evil effects of infidelity. Accord- ing to this minister, God, in order to show his hatred of infidelity, "inspired," or allowed, one Christian to assassinate another.