Chapter 15

_A._ No, it was given by Lord Cochrane in his publication of the correspondence in the Morning Chronicle.

_Lord Ellenborough._ We cannot get on without the letters.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ I have no objection to the letters being read now.

_Lord Ellenborough._ That would disturb the order of the proceedings.

_Cross examined by Mr. Richardson._

_Q._ The conversation with Mr. De Berenger was about the 14th of February?

_A._ Yes it was.

_Q._ Have you not reason to know that about that time he had expectations of getting some employment in America?

_A._ He mentioned it to me himself.

_Q._ To serve under Sir Alexander Cochrane who had a command?

_A._ To serve under Lord Cochrane as I understood.

_Q._ He expressed his anxious desire and wish to be so employed?

_A._ Particularly so.

_Q._ He expressed a hope that he might make himself useful to the cause, by drilling the sharp shooters, and other things of that sort?

_A._ That was what he represented.

_Q._ Did you not know that he had had experience as a volunteer officer in a particular department?

_A._ I had a very high opinion of him as being acquainted with that science.

_Q._ He had been a Captain for a considerable number of years in the Duke of Cumberland's Corps of Sharp Shooters?

_A._ Adjutant I understand.

_Q._ You considered him as a man of science and skill in that department?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ Do you not know that he was making preparations at that time in order to go to America if he should be successful in procuring the appointment he was soliciting?

_A._ Not making preparations, those I know nothing of.

_Q._ That it was his anxious wish and desire to go you heard from him?

_A._ Yes.

_Re-examined by Mr. Bolland._

_Q._ Did the Stock Exchange apply to you, or did you go to them to give information.

_A._ The Stock Exchange applied to me and sent me a subpoena.

_Q._ Was the application made to you after Lord Cochrane's publication, or before?

_A._ After Lord Cochrane's publication. The information that I gave to the two gentlemen, Captain Taylor and Lieutenant Wright was prior to Lord Cochrane's affidavit, or its ever being mentioned in my hearing that Mr. De Berenger was implicated in this business.

_The Honorable Alexander Murray sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Bolland._

_Q._ You are in His Majesty's service as an officer?

_A._ Not at present.

_Q._ I believe you have the misfortune at present to be in the King's Bench.

_A._ I am.

_Q._ In the rules?

_A._ In the inside.

_Q._ Are you acquainted with Captain De Berenger, and how long have you been so.

_A._ About a year and a half I have been.

_Q._ Who introduced you to Captain De Berenger?

_A._ Mr. Tahourdin, who was my solicitor, and likewise the solicitor of Mr. De Berenger.

_Q._ In consequence of that introduction did a considerable intimacy take place between you and the captain?

_A._ There did.

_Q._ Were you frequently together?

_A._ Very frequently; when I first went over to the rules of the Bench, I lodged with Mr. De Berenger in the same house for about one month, till I took a house of my own.

_Q._ Had you at any time any conversation with Captain De Berenger previous to the 21st of February with respect to Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

_A._ Towards the end of January I think, or perhaps the beginning of February.

_Q._ What was the substance of these conversations?

_A._ It happened one Sunday between one and two o'clock, Mr. Harrison called upon me, and we were conversing about a pamphlet he was writing.

_Q._ That Mr. Harrison was writing?

_A._ Yes; it was relative to the trial between Mr. Basil Cochrane and Mr. Harrison.

_Q._ That impressed the day upon your recollection?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did Captain De Berenger come in that day?

_A._ Yes; he came in during the conversation and joined in it.

_Q._ Did any thing pass from Captain De Berenger on that day respecting Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane?

_A._ I at that time knew he was employed by Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.

_Q._ From whom did you understand that?

_A._ From Mr. De Berenger himself, that he was employed by Mr. Cochrane Johnstone in planning out a small piece of ground behind his house in Alsop's Buildings.

_Q._ What passed at that time about Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

_A._ He mentioned that there was a transaction going on.

_Q._ Does the circumstance of the pamphlet bring back to your recollection what Sunday it was?

_A._ I cannot state the day of the month, but it was towards the end of January or the beginning of February.

_Q._ State what Mr. De Berenger then said?

_A._ He said that they had a plan in view----

_A._ Who had?

_A._ That De Berenger had, with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane, that provided it succeeded, it would put many thousand pounds in the pocket of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane.

_Q._ Upon hearing this, did either you or Mr. Harrison ask Captain De Berenger what the plan was?

_A._ I did, and he declined answering it; I said, "is it the plan with regard to Ranelagh which it was proposed to build in Alsop's Buildings, on Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's land," and he said "no, it is not, it is a far better plan."

_Q._ Did you collect from Mr. De Berenger's conversation with you, whether there was any particular intimacy between him and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane?

_A._ I knew there was a very particular intimacy between him and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, but I did not understand it was with Lord Cochrane at all; I understood he was a more recent acquaintance.

_Q._ From what did you collect that; what did Mr. De Berenger say to you that induced you to believe he was intimate with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

_A._ He was constantly with him; he was there almost every day.

_Q._ You say that his acquaintance with Lord Cochrane was recent?

_A._ I do.

_Q._ When you understood him to be acquainted with Lord Cochrane, did he state any thing with regard to his visits to Lord Cochrane?

_A._ He did not.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._

_Q._ You have known Mr. De Berenger a great while?

_A._ Yes, I have.

_Q._ He is a man of very considerable science and attainment I am told?

_A._ Very much so.

_Q._ I believe you happen to know that he was at that time, or had been about that time engaged in some plan of Mr. Johnstone's about building a place called Vittoria, in consequence of the great victories?

_A._ It was to be called Ranelagh I understood, I never heard of the name Vittoria.

_Q._ He had been engaged for a considerable time before in drawing a plan?

_A._ He had, which I had seen.

_Q._ And that led him, as you understood, to be very much with Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

_A._ It did.

_Q._ Alsop's Buildings is somewhere near Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's house?

_A._ Mr. Cochrane Johnstone has a house there, and this is the ground immediately behind it, about an acre, which is in garden ground, and which was to be converted to that use.

_Q._ Something upon the plan of the old Ranelagh?

_A._ Something upon an improved plan of Mr. De Berenger's.

_Q._ You have seen the plan you say, which Mr. De Berenger drew for Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ How long ago is that?

_A._ I cannot exactly say how long ago it was.

_Q._ Was it before this conversation a good while?

_A._ Before this conversation; when I was in the habit of calling upon him.

_Q._ About the close of the last year probably?

_A._ About that time, I cannot exactly say.

_Q._ Was it not a very beautiful plan that he had drawn for this Ranelagh?

_A._ It was.

_Q._ It required, from the nature of it, a considerable deal of time and labour?

_A._ It did certainly.

_Q._ Do you know whether Mr. De Berenger was very much employed in plans of that kind for the Royal Family and others?

_A._ He was.

_Lord Ellenborough._ If you see any tendency to the advantage of your client, I will not interrupt you, but at present this seems to have no bearing.

_Mr. Park._ I assure your Lordship, and I know I shall have credit for believing what I state, I would not at this hour of the night pursue it if it was not important, but I feel it necessary when it is stated that there has been a wonderful intimacy, from which, conspiracy is sought to be inferred.

_Lord Ellenborough._ I will not ask you to go into your reasons, if you only say you think it material.

_Mr. Park._ As far as you have seen Mr. De Berenger, for the length of time you have described, do you not believe him to be a man of honor and integrity?

_A._ I certainly do from every thing I have seen; I saw nothing but the most perfect gentleman during the time I lodged under the same roof.

_William Carling sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._

_Q._ Whose servant are you?

_A._ The Honorable Basil Cochrane's.

_Q._ Are you in his service still?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and my Lord Cochrane visit at your master's house?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Have you ever seen them there in company with Captain De Berenger?

_A._ Yes; Baron De Berenger is the name I have given in.

_Q._ The gentleman who sits there now?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did he come there once, or oftener, within your memory?

_A._ Twice.

_Q._ Who brought him?

_A._ I do not know that any body brought him in particular, he came to dine there as a visitor.

_Q._ With whom?

_A._ Not with any body in particular; invited by the Honorable Basil Cochrane.

_Q._ Was that upon days when Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane were there?

_A._ Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and Lord Cochrane dined there once; Lord Cochrane did not the second time?

_Q._ As far as you could observe, did Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone appear to be acquainted with the Baron De Berenger, or to be then first introduced to him?

_A._ They appeared to be acquainted with him.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Topping._

_Q._ Can you tell us what time this was?

_A._ In January the first time, and the next in February, but I cannot say what day.

_Q._ You live with Mr. Basil Cochrane?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ He is related to Lord Cochrane?

_A._ Yes, he is uncle to Lord Cochrane.

_Q._ And Mr. Basil Cochrane having a dinner party, Baron De Berenger was one of the party, and Lord Cochrane another?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ And Mr. Cochrane Johnstone another?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did the dinner party consist of any other?

_A._ Yes, the first time, Admiral Cochrane (Sir Alexander), his lady, and some more ladies and gentlemen.

_Q._ Was that the day Lord Cochrane dined there?

_A._ Yes, it was.

_Q._ Then upon another occasion, Mr. Basil Cochrane having a diner party, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone formed one of the party, and Baron De Berenger another?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Was there an indiscriminate mixture of ladies and gentlemen again then?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ And Lord Cochrane was not there?

_A._ He was not.

_Q._ You have been asked whether Baron De Berenger and Lord Cochrane and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone appeared to be acquainted--did Baron De Berenger appear to be acquainted with Admiral Cochrane?

_A._ I cannot say.

_Q._ You were merely a servant attending at table?

_A._ Yes.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson._

_Q._ From the conversation that passed, did you understand whether Baron De Berenger was going to America to serve under Admiral Cochrane.

_A._ I did not.

_Mr. Barnard Broochooft sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Bolland._

_Q._ You are Deputy Marshal of the King's Bench?

_A._ I am clerk to the Marshal of the King's Bench.

_Q._ Do you know Baron De Berenger?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Was he, during the latter end of the last year, and the beginning of the present, a prisoner in the King's Bench?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ How long had he been confined there?

_A._ I think from the latter end of the year 1812.

_Q._ Till what time?

_A._ I am not prepared to state the day but till within about six weeks.

_Q._ Have you the book of rules here?

_A._ I have not.

_Q._ Did you miss him at any time?

_A._ Yes some months.

_Mr. Park._ I waive the objection to your asking your questions, so far as I am concerned for Mr. De Berenger.

_Mr. Bolland._ Who were the securities for Mr. De Berenger?

_A._ Mr. Cochrane, a bookseller, in Fleet-street, and Mr. Tahourdin, the attorney.

_Q._ You made search for him and could not find him?

_A._ Yes.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best._

_Q._ That Cochrane was not at all connected with the Dundonald family?

_A._ I asked the question, and I understood not.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._

_Q._ Mr. Cochrane is partner in the house of Mr. White, of Fleet-street?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ I believe you saw Mr. De Berenger on the morning of the 21st very early, did not you?

_A._ No.

_Q._ Recollect yourself, because I understand you did see him that morning?

_A._ I cannot recollect having seen Mr. De Berenger for a very great length of time, and I think long previous to that?

_Q._ I have reason to put the question, or I should not to you, not doubting the veracity of your answer; recollect whether you did not see him near the King's Bench Prison, very early on that morning?

_A._ I have nothing by which I can charge my recollection.

_Q._ The security was given a considerable time ago for the rules?

_A._ A very considerable time ago, nearly two years ago I should think.

_Q._ It was not for a very large sum?

_A._ Under £400. I think.

_Q._ You will excuse my asking, but the security is generally nearly commensurate with the debt?

_A._ They generally do take it for the amount as nearly as possible, calculating the costs.

_Q._ More than the debt then?

_A._ Yes.

_Mr. Bolland._ Was Mr. Ralph Sandom a prisoner in the King's Bench Prison?

_A._ Twice he has been a prisoner.

_Q._ Was he on the 21st of February?

_A._ I have not the books, and cannot state that.

_Mr. Joseph Wood sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Are you a Messenger of the Alien Office?

_A._ I am.

_Q._ Did you on the 3d or 4th of April leave London in order to apprehend De Berenger?

_A._ I did on the 4th.

_Q._ Had you a warrant of the Secretary of State?

_A._ I had.

_Q._ How long had you had it in your possession?

_A._ Ever since the 17th of March.

_Q._ Where did you find him?

_A._ At Leith.

_Q._ On what day?

_A._ On the 8th of April.

_Q._ Did you find him in possession of any writing desk?

_A._ Of this one. (_producing a portable desk_).

_Q._ Did that writing desk contain papers and bank notes?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Before you parted with any of those papers or bank notes did you mark them?

_A._ Yes I did.

_Q._ When did you mark them?

_A._ I marked them before the Grand Jury the day of the bill being found.

_Q._ Have they been in your possession from the day you marked them?

_A._ They have from the hour I took Mr. De Berenger.

_Q._ Were there any pieces of coin in the writing desk also?

_A._ There were guineas and half guineas, and in the pocket book there were two Napoleons. (_the witness opened the desk._)

_Q._ The bank notes are in parcels I believe?

_A._ Yes they are.

_Q._ Give me the packet with the 67.

_They were handed in._

_Mr. Gurney._ I believe it will be more clear if I do not open them now till I have proved them?

_A._ Here are two packets, and a pocket book containing a fifty pound note and four five pound notes, the Napoleons are in the pocket book.

_Q._ There is a memorandum book also and a paper of memorandums?

_A._ There are.

_The Witness delivered them in._

_Q._ There is a road book besides?

_A._ Yes there is.

_Mr. Park._ There are some papers of which I have heard no proof; there is a paper, in which it is stated there is some pencil mark, I have heard no proof of any pencil mark, or any writing; it is not evidence because it is in his pocket-book because one has many things in a pocket-book which are not in one's hand-writing.

_Mr. Gurney._ This is the writing.

_Mr. Park._ I shall not look at it; I do not know his hand-writing.

_Mr. Gurney._ Mr. Jones, I will trouble you to read the first article in that memorandum-book.

_Mr. Park._ That cannot be done.

_Mr. Gurney._ It is found in his letter-case.

_Mr. Park._ I object till his hand-writing is proved; the finding a manuscript in my possession, is not sufficient to warrant its being read as evidence against me; your Lordship might confide some paper to me, and it would be very hard to read that against me.

_Lord Ellenborough._ It is _prima facie_ evidence I think, subject to any observations you make upon it.

_Mr. Park._ It is found in that thing, not in his pocket.

_Lord Ellenborough._ (_to Wood_) Was it under his lock?

_A._ It was in his possession when I took him.

_Mr. Park._ Am I to be answerable for all manner of things sent to me by my friends?

_Lord Ellenborough._ I think a paper found under the lock and key of the party, is _prima facie_, readable against him; it is subject to observations. If you do not go further, the reading this as found in his possession, is doing little.

_Mr. Gurney._ (_to Mr. Lavie_) Do you believe that to be Mr. De Berenger's writing?

_A._ I have no doubt about it.

_Mr. Park._ Is it in pencil or ink?

_A._ In ink.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ That cannot be evidence against the Cochranes.

_Lord Ellenborough._ No, if it was transmitted by him in writing to the others, it would be evidence against them; but it purports to be only a memorandum of his own.

_Mr. Gurney._ Certainly not, my Lord.

_The Extract was read as follows_:

"To C. I. by March 1st 1814, £350--£4 to 5000--assign one share of patent and £1000 worth shares of Jn. De Beaufain at Messrs. H. to their care.--Believe from my informant £18,000 instead of £4800--suspicious that Mr. B. does not account correctly to him as well as me. Determined not to be duped. No restrictions as to secresy--requesting early answer."

_Mr. Gurney._ That is all I wish to read.

_Mr. Park._ I never heard a word of this.

_Mr. Gurney._ Very likely not.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson._

_Q._ Did you carry this box of papers before the Grand Jury?

_A._ Yes I did, the writing desk.

_Q._ By whose orders was that done?

_A._ By orders of the Secretary of State, of Mr. Beckett; I was subpoenaed to bring it before the Grand Jury, and I carried the subpoena to take directions from Mr. Beckett the Under Secretary of State.

_Q._ You received Mr. Beckett's orders to do it?

_A._ With the subpoena I told Mr. Beckett I had received an order to take it before the Grand Jury, and I did so.

_Mr. Park._ There are no subpoenas for the Grand Jury.

_Mr. Gurney._ There are indeed, Crown Office subpoenas.

_Mr. Richardson._ By whose order were the seals put on at Edinburgh taken off?

_A._ By order of Mr. Beckett.

_Q._ That was before you went before the Grand Jury?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Has the box remained in your possession ever since you took it at Edinburgh?

_A._ Yes, ever since when I went a journey to Holland; in my absence Mr. Tahourdin wished to see it, and Mr. Musgrave opened it for him.

_Q._ Except the time you took a journey to Holland it has been in your possession?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Had the seals been opened before that time, before you went to Holland?

_A._ They had.

_Q._ In whose possession was it during the time of your absence?

_A._ Mr. Musgrave's, and he delivered it up to me again.

_Q._ Who is Mr. Musgrave?

_A._ One of the clerks in the Office.

_Q._ How long were you absent?

_A._ A week or ten days.

_Q._ Has it been in your possession ever since your return?

_A._ Yes, it has.

_Q._ Were you present all the time it was before the Grand Jury?

_A._ I was; I left it on the Grand Jury table when I went out, but I locked it, and I had the key.

_Q._ With all its contents locked up in it?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Were you present when Mr. Wakefield of the Stock Exchange, and Mr. Lavie called, I think on the very day that Mr. De Berenger arrived in London?

_A._ I was.

_Q._ Was that at your house?

_A._ No it was not.

_Q._ Where was it?

_A._ At the Parliament Street Coffee House.

_Q._ That was the place you carried him to first?

_A._ No, first to the Secretary of State's Office, and afterwards to the Parliament Street Coffee House.

_Q._ The day of your arrival those Gentlemen came there?

_A._ They were there.

_Q._ Mr. Wakefield and some other Gentleman?

_A._ Mr. Wakefield and another Gentleman.

_Q._ Who was the other Gentleman?

_A._ I do not exactly recollect.

_Q._ Was it not stated to him by those Gentlemen that they did not wish to press him if he would furnish information against Lord Cochrane, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, and Mr. Butt?

_A._ I do not recollect hearing those names mentioned.

_Q._ Against the other Gentlemen?

_A._ No, I do not recollect hearing that.

_Q._ Did they not state that what they wanted was information from him to fix the guilt upon others?

_A._ Not to my recollection.

_Q._ Or any thing to that effect?

_A._ I do not recollect any thing of the kind, I did not exactly listen to the conversation.

_Q._ He was in your custody, and you in the room all the time?

_A._ Not exactly; I was there the greatest part of the time.

_Q._ Be so kind as to recollect yourself, it was only in the month of April last that this happened, many circumstances have called this to your recollection since; what was the conversation that passed; what did they state to him as to his furnishing information?

_A._ There were some gentlemen wanted to speak to Mr. De Berenger; Mr. Wakefield went very close to Mr. De Berenger, and I declare to you upon my oath I do not recollect any particular words.

_Q._ The substance is all I want?

_A._ I really do not recollect the substance.

_Q._ Was any thing said as to his furnishing information: recollect, that you are to tell the whole truth upon your oath, as far as you recollect it; what was said upon that subject, as far as you can recollect?

_A._ Mr. Wakefield did say something to him, but I really do not recollect.

_Q._ Was it to that effect?

_A._ Mr. Wakefield put some questions to Mr. De Berenger respecting this business, the Stock Exchange business; but the exact conversation, which I did not listen to, I cannot say.

_Q._ Respecting the other persons supposed to be concerned, was not that the effect of it?

_A._ Something to that effect I think, but I did not listen to the conversation.

_Lord Ellenborough._ What is the effect? only something about other persons, that is no effect.

_Mr. Richardson._ What was the effect of it?

_A._ Mr. Wakefield put some questions respecting the Stock Exchange, I did not attend exactly to what it was.

_Lord Ellenborough._ You had better call Mr. Wakefield, who put the questions, than he who did not hear what passed.

_Mr. Park._ We cannot call Mr. Wakefield; he is one of the Prosecutors, he is one of the Stock Exchange.

_Lord Ellenborough._ I know nothing about Mr. Wakefield; as long as the question is sperate I am willing to hear it put, but it has been put ten times and the same answer returned.

_Mr. Richardson._ Did you hear names mentioned?

_A._ I did not.

_Q._ Did you hear them tell him, that their wish was that he should furnish information, to bring home the guilt to others?

_A._ I remember the word information, and that is all I recollect.

_Q._ That they wanted information?

_A._ That is all I recollect.

_Q._ Before this conversation took place, did not Mr. De Berenger say that he wished to be attended by Counsel, if they wished to converse with him?

_A._ Mr. De Berenger did answer something, but I cannot state what it was; I did not attend to the conversation.

_Q._ Before these Gentlemen were introduced by you to him, did he not say that he was exhausted by his journey, and unwilling to see them, unless he could have some person present?

_A._ He did; he said he was very unwell, and exhausted by his journey.

_Q._ And desired not to see them, unless some person was present with them?

_A._ Yes, I think he did say something of that kind, that he was very faint with his journey.

_Q._ But nevertheless you introduced them to him that evening?