Part 9

_Q._ Any more than one?

_A._ No more than one.

_Q._ Who drove that coach?

_A._ One Crane.

_Q._ Did you see the gentleman get into it?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Q._ How did he go in?

_A._ He stepped out of one into the other?

_Q._ Did you open the door and let down the step for him?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ How was that gentleman dressed?

_A._ He had got a kind of brown cap on, and a dark drab military sort of coat.

_Q._ Was there any thing round the cap?

_A._ There was a sort of band or something round the cap.

_Q._ What had he under his military great coat?

_A._ A scarlet coat.

_Q._ Did you see any thing on the scarlet coat?

_A._ I only took notice of the lace upon it.

_Q._ Where did that gentleman order the coach to drive to?

_A._ Up to Grosvenor Square.

_Q._ To what street?

_A._ I do not recollect whether he told me any street, only Grosvenor Square.

_Q._ Do you think you should know that gentleman again?

_A._ I do not know; dress makes such an alteration.

_Q._ Look round, and see whether you can see any one.

_A._ I do not see that I can recollect him, only seeing him that half minute.

_Q._ Look at that gentleman who is stooping down to write, (_De Berenger_,) and see whether you think that is like him?

_A._ Yes, I do upon my word, but I only saw him for about half a minute.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._

_Q._ You, being a waterman, take that particular notice of every body that gets into a hackney coach, that you are quite sure having seen him step from the chaise into the coach, that he is the man?

_A._ I said at first, that the dress made such an alteration that I should think I should hardly know him.

_Q._ If I were to get into your coach with this dress on, and afterwards with my ordinary dress, you would hardly know me again?

_A._ No, I should think not.

_Richard Barwick sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._

_Q._ What are you?

_A._ I am clerk to Messrs. Paxtons and Company.

_Q._ Where is their house of business?

_A._ In Pall Mall.

_Q._ They are Bankers?

_A._ Yes, they are.

_Q._ Do you remember a particular circumstance in passing near the Marsh Gate any morning?

_A._ Yes, I do.

_Q._ On what day?

_A._ Monday Morning the 21st February.

_Q._ What did you observe in passing?

_A._ I observed a post chaise with four horses, it had galloped at a very great rate, the horses were exceedingly hot, and the man was getting into a hackney coach that the people there told me had come out of that chaise.

_Q._ Did you hear that person who got into the coach say anything?

_A._ No, I had no conversation with any body.

_Q._ Did you follow that coach?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ How far?

_A._ I saw it as far as the Little Theatre, in the Haymarket.

_Q._ Why did you follow that hackney coach.

_A._ Because I wanted to know what the news was.

_Lord Ellenborough._ How came you to know any thing about the news?

_A._ I was told, it was a General Officer arrived with news, and I wanted to know what it was.

_Lord Ellenborough._ You were told it was an Officer arrived with news?

_A._ Yes, I was.

_Mr. Adolphus._ Then you went to your own business, having followed this coach to the Haymarket?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did he pass by any of the public offices?

_A._ Yes, he did.

_Q._ Did he stop at any of them?

_A._ No.

_Q._ He went straight to the Haymarket?

_A._ Yes, he did.

_Q._ Was that the reason why you desisted from following?

_A._ It was nine o'clock, and I must be at the office by that hour, and therefore I did not go on.

_Q._ Did you see enough of that person to know him again?

_A._ I believe, I did.

_Q._ Look at him, and see whether you know his person again?

(_The witness looked round._)

_Lord Ellenborough._ Did you see his body?

_A._ I saw his face in the coach, he had a cap on such as the German Cavalry wear, after an evening parade, with a gold band upon it.

_Mr. Adolphus._ Have you seen that person in court?

_Lord Ellenborough._ There is no objection to his looking at the Defendant, and seeing whether he is the person.

(_The witness looked at the Defendant De Berenger._)

_A._ I really do not know that I do see him exactly.

_Mr. Park._ This is the gentleman said to be the man.

_Lord Ellenborough._ If you do not recollect the gentleman's person, say so.

_Mr. Park._ Is the result of your looking that you do not believe this to be the man?

_A._ He is something like him.

_Q._ One man is something like another, he goes upon two legs, and has two hands, and so on.

_A._ It is like him certainly.

_William Crane sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._

_Q._ Do you drive a hackney coach?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ What number.

_A._ 890.

_Q._ On a Monday morning in February do you remember taking up a fare at the Marsh Gate?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ What day of the month was it?

_A._ The 21st of February.

_Q._ Where did the fare come from?

_A._ From Dartford.

_Q._ Out of what?

_A._ A post chaise and four--a Dartford chaise.

_Q._ Where were you directed to drive to?

_A._ To Grosvenor Square.

_Q._ Where to there?

_A._ He did not say where in Grosvenor Square.

_Q._ Where did you set him down?

_A._ I drove him into Grosvenor Square, and then the gentleman put down the front glass and told me to drive to No. 13, Green Street.

_Q._ Did the gentleman get out there?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did you hear whom he asked for?

_A._ He asked for Colonel or Captain somebody, I did not hear the name, and they said he was gone to breakfast in Cumberland Street.

_Q._ What did the gentleman say then?

_A._ The gentleman asked if he could write a note to him.

_Q._ Did he go in?

_A._ Yes, he went into the parlour.

_Q._ Were you discharged then?

_A._ Yes, the gentleman gave me four shillings before he went in, and I said, I hoped he would give me another shilling: he took out a bit of a portmanteau that he had, and a sword, and went in, and came out into the passage and gave me another shilling.

_Q._ What sort of a portmanteau was it?

_A._ A small leather one, big enough to wrap a coat up in.

_Q._ What sort of leather?

_A._ I think black leather, as well as I can recollect.

_Q._ Have you seen that person since that you drove that morning?

_A._ Yes, I saw him in King Street, Westminster.

_Q._ At the messenger's house?

_A._ At Mr. Wood's house.

_Q._ Do you see him in court?

_A._ I think this is the gentleman, here, (_pointing to De Berenger_.)

_Q._ Were you of the same opinion when you saw him at Mr. Wood's?

_A._ When I came down stairs he looked very hard at me.

_Q._ Did you know him then?

_A._ Yes, it was something of the same appearance, but he had altered himself very much by his dress.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Richardson._

_Q._ You went to Wood's for the purpose of seeing him?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Q._ Wood is a messenger of the Alien Office?

_A._ He lives in King Street.

_Q._ He was pointed out there as being the person in custody?

_A._ No, I walked down stairs, and met the gentleman coming up stairs.

_Q._ You thought you saw a resemblance?

_A._ Yes, I thought he was something like the same gentleman that I had carried.

_Q._ You do not pretend to be able to recollect every person you carry in your hackney coach every day?

_A._ No, but this gentleman that I took from a post chaise and four, when he got out at Green Street I saw that he had a red coat underneath his great coat.

_Q._ You did not open your coach to him, the waterman did that?

_A._ Yes, the post boy ordered me to get on the box.

_Lord Ellenborough._ When he got out you opened the door to him I suppose?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Mr. Richardson._ Did you open the door, or the footman at the house?

_A._ I opened the door.

_Q._ And he paid you and passed into the house?

_A._ Yes, he did.

_Q._ What was the colour of his great coat?

_A._ A brown grey great coat, with a brown cape with lace to it.

_Q._ You have before described the great coat as a brown great coat, have not you?

_A._ A kind of a brown grey.

_Q._ Did not you describe it before as a kind of a brown coat?

_A._ No.

_Mr. Gurney._ I will now prove the finding the clothes in the river, and then prove the purchase of them.

_George Odell sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Are you a waterman?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Do you remember in the month of February last, fishing up any bundle in the river?

_A._ In the month of March.

_Q._ Where did you fish it up?

_A._ Above the Old Swan Stairs, off against the Iron Wharfs.

_Q._ Were you dredging for any thing?

_A._ I was dredging for coals with a drag.

_Q._ What kind of a bundle did you find?

_A._ I picked up a bundle, tied up with a piece of chimney line, or window line in the cover of a calico chair bottom.

_Q._ What was in it?

_A._ I think there were two sleeves of a coat, and then a coat cut to pieces, and embroidery, and a star, and a silver coat of arms, with two figures upon it.

_Q._ How was it sunk?

_A._ With three pieces of lead, three screws, and some marks for letters.

_Q._ With some metal?

_A._ Yes, and some bits of coal.

_Q._ Did you give that which you found to Mr. Wade, the Secretary of the Stock Exchange?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ How soon after you found it did you give it to him?

_A._ I picked it up on the Wednesday, and I carried it there on the Saturday.

_Mr. Park._ Can you give us the day of the month when you picked this up?

_A._ The 24th of March.

_Mr. Gurney._ Did you find it on the 24th of March, or give it to Mr. Wade on that day?

_A._ I picked it up on that day, about half after eleven o'clock in the day; I can bring plenty of witnesses to my picking it up.

_Q._ Are these the sort of things that you picked up? (_shewing a bundle of clothes with star, &c. to the witness._)

_A._ These are the sort of things, but the star was not in that state it is now; the star was in half, and one of the birds was off.

_Mr. Gurney._ This, my Lord, is an order of masonry, and this I understand a Russian order of knighthood, the order of St. Ann.

_Mr. Francis Baily sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ You are of the Stock Exchange?

_A._ Yes, I am.

_Q._ Were you present with Mr. Wade, when he received the parcel from Odell?

_A._ I was,--from the last witness in the box.

_Q._ Was it delivered over to Mr. Lavie?

_A._ I believe it was, it lay upon the table some time.

_Q._ Did you examine it?

_A._ I did, very minutely.

_Q._ Are the things contained in that parcel?

_A._ I believe them to be, they appear to be the same.

_Mr. Gurney (to Mr. Lavie)._ Did you receive that from Mr. Wade?

_Mr. Lavie._ I did, I took it from the Stock Exchange room.

_Q._ Mr. Wade and Mr. Baily were present?

_Mr. Lavie._ Yes, they were.

_Mr. Robert Watson Wade sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ You are the Secretary at the Stock Exchange?

_A._ I am.

_Q._ Did you, in company with Mr. Baily and other gentlemen, receive from Odell the bundle said to be found in the River?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ Was it given to Mr. Lavie?

_A._ It was.

_Q._ The star we understand was then in two pieces?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Was it afterwards sewn together?

_A._ It was, for the purpose of being exhibited.

_Simeon Kensington Solomon sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ I believe you are a military accoutrement maker?

_A._ Yes, I am.

_Q._ Have you a shop at Charing-Cross, and another at New-Street Covent Garden?

_A._ We have.

_Q._ On the Saturday the 19th of February do you remember any person making a purchase of any military dress at your house?

_A._ Yes, I do.

_Q._ What dress was purchased of you?

_A._ A military great coat and foraging cap.

_Q._ What is it made of?

_A._ Dark fur.

_Q._ Was any thing on it?

_A._ It had a pale gold band.

_Q._ Have you since had a cap and a coat made exactly resembling them?

_A._ I have.

_Q._ Are these the cap and the coat you have had so made? (_shewing them to the witness._)

_A._ They are.

_Q._ Do they exactly resemble the cap and the coat you sold?

_A._ As nearly as I could possibly recollect.

_Q._ What else did the person purchase?

_A._ They purchased at our house in New Street----

_Q._ You suppose some order had been given in New-Street, did any thing come from New-Street as having been ordered there?

_A._ Yes there did.

_Q._ You were at Charing Cross?

_A._ I was.

_Q._ Did any person come to your shop at Charing-Cross and take away that which had been sent from New-Street which you furnished?

_A._ Yes, he did.

_Q._ Was there any other coat purchased besides that great coat?

_A._ There was a military regimental coat, a staff coat was brought from New-Street.

_Q._ Was that scarlet?

_A._ Yes, fitted for a staff officer the uniform of an Aid de Camp.

_Q._ With this sort of gold lace upon it?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Have you examined these fragments?

_A._ Yes, I have.

_Q._ Were there any ornaments besides?

_A._ There was a star and a badge.

_Q._ Look at that star and badge and tell me whether you believe them to be the same?

_A._ Yes, I do believe them to be the same.

_Q._ Why do you believe them to be the same?

_A._ The star I certainly believe to be the same, because we had the very fellow star.

_Q._ Except these two, did you ever see any star like them?

_A._ I do not know that ever I did.

_Q._ Do you believe that badge to be the same?

_A._ The badge I did not notice much.

_Q._ You sold a badge?

_A._ The badge came from our house in New-Street.

_Q._ Had you any conversation with the person?

_A._ Yes I had.

_Q._ You have examined these fragments?

_A._ I have.

_Q._ Do you believe them to be the fragments of the dress you furnished, or of such a dress?

_A._ They appear to be those materials, as far as I can judge in that state.

_Q._ And the same kind of lace?

_A._ The same description of embroidery.

_Q._ Speaking of a thing so cut to pieces, does it appear to you to consist of the remnants of the dress you furnished?

_A._ Yes, except that the scarlet is very much discoloured by being under water, it appears the same description of coat.

_Q._ Had you any conversation with the person as to the use of these things?

_A._ I had very little conversation as to the sale of the uniform, for they were already purchased before I saw him, with respect to the great coat I sold that and also the cap.

_Q._ Did he mention for what purpose they were wanted?

_A._ He observed that they were wanted for a person who was to perform the character of a foreign officer, to be sent into the country that evening.

_Q._ Did he take them away with him?

_A._ Yes he did.

_Q._ Did you offer to lend them to him?

_A._ Where he purchased the uniform----

_Q._ If that was not in your presence you will not state it--did he take them away with him?

_A._ Yes he took them away in a coach.

_Q._ Had he any portmanteau with him?

_A._ He had a small portmanteau.

_Q._ Did he beat you down in the prices?

_A._ No, he did not.

_Q._ Did he say any thing about money?

_A._ No, he made no observations, he merely paid for them.

_Q._ You were conversing with that person for some time?

_A._ For a short time.

_Q._ Have you since seen him again--have you seen any person that you believed to be the same?

_A._ I was introduced to a person----

_Q._ Where was that?

_A._ At the Parliament-street Coffee House.

_Q._ Do you believe that person you saw at the Parliament-street Coffee House to be the person who so made the purchase?

_A._ That I cannot undertake to say.

_Q._ What do you believe?

_A._ In point of appearance he resembles him, except that the person whom I served had whiskers.

_Q._ I suppose the person you saw in Parliament street had not?

_A._ He had not.

_Q._ Look at him now and tell me whether you do or do not believe him to be the person? (_The witness looked at the Defendant De Berenger._)

_A._ This is the person I was introduced to at the Coffee-house.

_Q._ Upon the oath you have taken, what is your belief respecting him?

_A._ I really cannot undertake to swear that he is the person?

_Q._ What do you believe?

_A._ The Gentleman that represented himself to be Mr. Wilson was dressed in a different manner, he had black whiskers, and from that circumstance I could not possibly undertake to swear it was the same person.

_Q._ What is your belief?

_Mr. Park._ That belief may be founded on different facts?

_Lord Ellenborough._ To those facts you will examine, Mr. Gurney is now examining, there is no objection to the question.

_Mr. Gurney._ What is your belief?

_A._ Upon my word it is impossible for me to say.

_Q._ Do you mean to say that you have no belief upon the matter?

_A._ I mean to say I cannot undertake to swear it is the person.

_Q._ What is your belief?

_A._ I believe it resembles the person, except that the person I served had whiskers.

_Q._ Making allowance for whiskers which may be taken off in a minute, what is your belief upon the subject?

_A._ Upon my word it is impossible for me to say.

_Q._ You can certainly say what is your belief?

_Lord Ellenborough._ You are not asked as to whether you are certain, but to your belief.

_A._ If I were to say I believe it is the person I might say wrong, if I were to say I believe it is not the person I might say otherwise, it may be the person but I cannot undertake to say I believe it is.

_Mrs. Abigail Davidson sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ In the month of February last did you reside in the Asylum Buildings?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ That is near to the Asylum?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Is the house within the rules of the King's Bench?

_A._ Yes it is.

_Q._ Did Mr. De Berenger lodge with you?

_A._ He did.

_Q._ Do you remember on what day he finally quitted your house?

_A._ On the 27th of February.

_Q._ What day of the week was that?

_A._ Sunday.

_Q._ Do you remember where he was the Sunday before that?

_A._ No.

_Q._ Did you see him on the morning of that Sunday?

_A._ No, on Sunday the 20th you mean, I did not.

_Q._ Did he sleep at home that night?

_A._ I cannot say.

_Q._ Did you see him that night at all?

_A._ We never attended to the door.

_Q._ Did you usually hear Mr. De Berenger in the morning?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Much or little did you hear him?

_A._ We heard him very frequently.

_Q._ Did you on the morning of Monday the 21st hear him as usual?

_A._ No.

_Q._ What did you use to hear of him on the mornings on which you did hear him?

_A._ We heard the bell ring for the servant.

_Q._ Once or more than once?

_A._ More than once?

_Q._ What rooms did he occupy?

_A._ The whole of the upper part of the house.

_Q._ What part did you occupy?

_A._ The parlours.

_Q._ How many rooms up stairs were there?

_A._ Four.

_Q._ And you and your husband occupied the two parlours?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ On other mornings when you heard him besides ringing the bell did you hear any thing else respecting him?

_A._ Occasionally Mr. De Berenger would play on the violin or the trumpet.

_Q._ Did you hear him walk about?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did Mr. De Berenger then wear whiskers or no whiskers?

_A._ Whiskers.

_Q._ Was there any morning on which you were at home that you did not hear his bell and his walking about?

_A._ No, I generally heard his bell.

_Q._ Did you see him come home on the Monday?

_A._ No.

_Q._ How early on that evening did you see him?

_A._ In the evening about a quarter or half past five.

_Q._ Had you heard him in the house before that time?

_A._ I heard him in the afternoon.

_Q._ You say he quitted your house on the Sunday after?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Do you remember any Gentleman calling there the day before he quitted with a letter?

_A._ On the Saturday night--

_Q._ He called with a letter?

_A._ Yes he did.

_Q._ Have you since seen that Gentleman again?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Where did you see him?

_A._ I saw him at the Temple?

_Q._ Was it at the Crown Office?

_A._ I do not know what office it was.

_Q._ Was Mr. Lavie present at the time you saw him?

_A._ Yes he was.

_Q._ Did you point him out to Mr. Lavie.

_A._ I cannot say that I should positively know the gentleman.

_Q._ Do you believe him to be the same?

_A._ Yes, I think it was.

_Q._ The same you had seen on the Saturday deliver that letter?

_A._ Yes, I think so.

_Q._ Had Mr. De Berenger two servants of the name of Smith, William Smith and his wife?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ When he dined at home did his servants attend him?

_A._ Always.

_Q._ On the Sunday before he finally went away, Sunday the 20th, did he dine at home?

_A._ I cannot answer that.

_Q._ What was his usual dinner hour?

_A._ About four o'clock.

_Q._ Where were his servants at four o'clock on that day? At home or not?

_A._ I think they went out early on that day.

_Q._ What do you mean by early?

_A._ I mean two or half past two o'clock.

_Q._ Do you remember any thing about your key, respecting either of them, whether either of them had your key?

_A._ There was a private place where the key always hung for the accommodation of Mr. De Berenger and us.

_Q._ Where was the key put that night?

_A._ The key was always under the care of Mr. Smith.

_Q._ You did not see where he put it that night, did you?

_A._ No, I did not.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._

_Q._ What Sunday was it that these servants went out to dinner at two or half past two?

_A._ On Sunday the 20th.

_Q._ You were preparing to go to chapel on that Sunday at eleven o'clock, and Mr. De Berenger went out at the time.

_A._ Mr. Davidson was going out, I did not go out.

_Q._ You were not well?

_A._ No.

_Q._ Mr. Davidson was going out.

_A._ Yes, but I did not see Mr. De Berenger.

_Q._ Did you hear your husband make an observation at the time?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Q._ You did not yourself attend to the door?

_A._ No.

_Q._ This Gentleman had been your lodger for some years, had he not?

_A._ Nine months?

_Q._ You do not mean to represent, that he slept from his own bed on that Sunday, the 20th?

_A._ I cannot say that he did, or that he did not.

_Q._ You do not make his bed or go into his room?

_A._ No.

_Q._ Do you sleep in the parlour?

_A._ Yes, we have the two parlours.

_Q._ What is your general hour of rising in the morning?

_A._ Between seven and eight.

_Q._ Mr. De Berenger's time of trumpeting is not so early as that I suppose?

_A._ I have heard him at nine o'clock.

_Q._ He did not alarm the neighbourhood at seven o'clock?

_A._ No, I have heard him by eight or nine.

_Q._ Not so soon as that I should think in the month of February, not being very warm weather at that time?

_A._ I cannot speak to the time.

_Q._ If a person went out at eight o'clock that morning, you had no particular reason to know of it?

_A._ No.

_Q._ You had no call to look after him on the Sunday, or Monday, or Tuesday morning?

_A._ No.

_Q._ And whether he slept at home or did not, you cannot take upon yourself to say?

_A._ No.

_Re-examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ My learned Friend has asked you as to your husband observing upon Mr. De Berenger's going out on the Sunday morning: in what words did your husband make the remark as to Mr. De Berenger's going out?

_A._ He called out, our lodger is gone out with a new great coat on.

_Mr. Germain Lavie again called._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Who was the Gentleman that Mrs. Davidson pointed out to you?

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ I object to that, that is a leading question.

_Mr. Gurney_. I beg pardon.--Did the last witness point out any person to you at the Crown-Office, at the time of striking the Jury?

_A._ Before she came into the Crown-Office she saw Mr. Cochrane Johnstone getting out of a Hackney coach at the Crown-Office door--she then told me----

_Q._ Did she point out any person to you as having seen him before?

_A._ No, she did not then.

_Q._ Did she afterwards fix upon any person as having seen him?

_A._ No she did not, unless I can speak to what passed before.

_Q._ Did she mention having seen any person get out of a Hackney Coach?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Who was that person that she observed upon?