Part 16

_A._ They were in the room with him, they came into the room with him; that was at the time that Mr. Wakefield was in the room, I believe.

_Mr. Park._ That he was very unwell, and would not answer unless some person was with him?

_Lord Ellenborough._ Did he say that he was unwilling to answer, without having some friend present?

_A._ I do not recollect that; but he said he was very unwell, and exhausted with the journey.

_Mr. Park._ Nevertheless a long conversation did take place, did it?

_A._ I believe Mr. Wakefield was there about ten minutes or a quarter of an hour, not more than that.

_Re-examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Did you put your marks upon these things before you went to Holland?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Mr. Joseph Fearn called again;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Be so good as to look at that check dated the 10th of February 1814 [_shewing it to the Witness_] did you give that check to Mr. Butt?

_A._ I did on the day of its date, the 10th of February.

_Mr. Joseph Brumfield sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Are you the clerk that paid the check on the 10th of February?

_A._ I am not.

_Q._ Is Mr. Evans here?

_A._ I believe not; I have not seen him.

_Mr. William Smallbone called again;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ On the 19th of February 1814, did you draw that check [_shewing it to the Witness_]?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ For whom?

_A._ For Lord Cochrane.

_Q._ Did you give it to Lord Cochrane?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ For Lord Cochrane?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ To pay for gains upon the stock account?

_A._ Not gains exactly, but upon the stock account.

_Q._ To whom personally did you give it?

_A._ To Lord Cochrane.

_Cross examined by Mr. Serjeant Best._

_Q._ Was Mr. Butt in the office at the time?

_A._ Yes, I think he was.

_Q._ Do you recollect whether you gave it into the hands of Lord Cochrane or Mr. Butt?

_A._ I think into the hand of Lord Cochrane; I feel satisfied in my mind that I gave it to Lord Cochrane and not to Mr. Butt.

_Q._ If you gave it to Lord Cochrane, did you see Lord Cochrane hand it over to Mr. Butt?

_A._ No, I cannot say that I did.

_Q._ Have you no recollection one way or the other?

_A._ No.

_Q._ Nor is your recollection very distinct whether you gave it to one or the other?

_A._ I have no reason to think I gave it to Mr. Butt.

_Q._ Mr. Butt frequently acted for Lord Cochrane?

_A._ Not with me.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Do you believe you gave it to Lord Cochrane?

_A._ I do, but I am not certain whether I laid it before him upon the table, or gave it into his hand.

_Lord Ellenborough._ You presented it to him, and gave it into his reach, so that he might take it?

_A._ Yes.

_A Juryman._ You charged him with it in account?

_A._ Yes, I did.

[_The check on Messrs. Jones, Loyd & Company, dated the 10th of February 1814, for the sum of_ £.470. 19_s._ 4_d._ _was read._]

_Edward Wharmby sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Are you clerk to Jones, Loyd & Company?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Look at that check [_handing it to the Witness_] did you pay that check?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Q._ On what day?

_A._ On the 19th of February.

_Q._ In what Bank notes did you pay it?

_A._ In one of £.200.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ From what are you speaking.

_A._ I have a copy of the notes.

_Q._ Is the book here?

_A._ No.

_Mr. Gurney._ You were directed to bring the books with you,--you must go and fetch them.

_Benjamin Lance sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ On the 26th of February did you give that check to Mr. Butt?

_A._ Yes, I did. [_The check was handed in._]

_Mr. Gurney._ Perhaps, my Lord, I had better wait till the witness brings the books; I am extremely sorry for the loss of time?

_Lord Ellenborough._ It will be more clear.

_Mr. Gurney._ I have a little more evidence to give under this head, if your Lordship will allow me to give that now, the letter which I opened, offering Mr. M'Rae's discovery.

_Mr. Joseph Fearn called again;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Look at that letter, [_shewing a letter to the witness_,] do you believe that to be Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hand-writing?

_A._ I do.

_Q._ Do you believe that also to be Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hand-writing?

_A._ Yes, I believe that also to be the same that is dated the 18th of April.

[_The letters were delivered in, and read as follow:_]

"To the Chairman of the Committee, "Stock Exchange, No. 18, Great Cumberland-street, 12th April 1814.

"Sir,

"I have this moment received a letter, of which the enclosed is a copy, and lose no time in transmitting it to you for the information of the gentlemen composing the Stock Exchange Committee; from the bearer of the letter, I am given to understand, that Mr. M'Rae, is willing to disclose the names of the Principals concerned in the late hoax, on being paid the sum of £.10,000. to be deposited in some banker's hands, in the names of two persons, to be nominated by himself, and to be paid to him on the conviction of the offenders.

I am happy to say, that there seems now a reasonable prospect of discovering the authors of the late hoax, and I cannot evince my anxious wish to promote such discovery, more than by assuring you that I am ready to contribute liberally towards the above sum of 10,000_l._ and I rest assured, that you will eagerly avail yourselves of this opportunity, to effect the proposed discovery (an object you profess to have so much at heart) by concurring with me in such contribution.

I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient humble servant, (Signed) _A. Cochrane Johnstone_."

[_The inclosure was read as follows:_]

"April 12th.

"Sir,

"I authorize the bearer of this note, to state to you that I am prepared to lay before the Public, the names of the persons who planned and carried into effect the late hoax, practised at the Stock Exchange the 21st of February, provided you accede to the terms which my friend will lay before you.

I am, Sir, Your obedient Servant, _A. M'Rae_."

To the honourable, Cochrane Johnstone.

"No. 18, Great Cumberland-street, 18th April 1814.

"Sir,

"I have to request, that you will be so good as to inform me what are the intentions of the Stock Exchange, on the subject of the letter which I addressed to you relative to the proposal of Mr. M'Rae.

Lord Cochrane, Mr. Butt, and myself, are willing to subscribe 1,000_l._ each, in aid of the 10,000_l._ required by Mr. M'Rae; the bearer waits your answer, which, to prevent any mistake, I hope you will find time to commit to writing.

I am, Sir, Your obedient servant, _A. Cochrane Johnstone_."

To Mr. Charles Laurence, Chairman of the Committee of the Stock Exchange.

[_Mr. Gurney to Mr. Fearn._]

_Q._ Look at the address of that letter [_shewing a letter to the witness_] is that address Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's hand-writing?

_A._ I believe it to be so.

[_The letter was read as follows._]

"To the Committee of the Stock Exchange.

No. 18, Great Cumberland-street, 14 March 1814.

As the report of the Stock Exchange Committee conveys an idea to the public, that they estimated delinquency by the enormous profits which accrued to Lord Cochrane, Mr. Butt, and myself, on the sale of Stock upon the 21st day of February, and as the public prints have estimated the gains, some at 100,000_l._ others at 75,000_l._ and none under 30,000_l._ I pledge myself to prove that the whole profits are as follow; viz.

Lord Cochrane £.1,700. Mr. Butt 1,300. Mr. Cochrane Johnstone 3,500.

If the Committee had acted impartially, they would have published a statement of all the purchases and sales effected by every broker on that day, with the names of the parties, that the Public might have drawn their conclusions. To obviate this omission on the part of the Committee, I am preparing for the press a correct statement of all sums bought for the parties before-mentioned, together with the names of those from whom the Stock was procured, and to whom sold; whereby it will be seen, who were the purchasers at an early hour on the 21st day of February.

_A. Cochrane Johnstone._"

Charles Laurence, Esq. Chairman of the Committee of the Stock Exchange.

_Mr. Gurney._ I apply that to the memorandum I before read, by which it appears that he states his own gains and Mr. Butt's to be £.4,800. subtracting Lord Cochrane's; the whole is £.6,500.

_Edward Wharmby called again;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ On what day in February did you pay that check? [_shewing it to the witness._]

_A._ The 19th of February.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ Is that entry in the book your own hand-writing?

_A._ It is.

_Mr. Gurney._ In what Bank notes did you pay it?

_A._ In one of two hundred pounds, No. 634.

_Q._ What other notes?

_A._ Two, of one hundred pounds each.

_Q._ What are the numbers?

_A._ 18,468 is one of them, and the other 16,601.

_Q._ Was there a £.50.?

_A._ Yes, No. 7,375.

_Mr. Gurney._ It is not necessary to mention the other, because I do not trace it.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best._

_Q._ You do not know to whom you paid that?

_A._ No, I do not.

_Lord Ellenborough._ You paid it to the bearer of that check for £.470, in discharge of that check?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Mr. Thomas Parker sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ You are a coal-merchant?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Does Lord Cochrane deal with you?

_A._ He did.

_Q._ Did you receive from him in payment a bank note of fifty pounds.

_A._ To the best of my recollection I did.

_Q._ On what day?

_A._ I do not exactly know the day; but some time in the beginning of March I think, or probably in the end of February.

_A Bank Clerk produced the £.50. note No. 7,375._

_Q._ Did Lord Cochrane make that payment to you in that bank note?

_A._ Yes, I believe he did.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ Is that your own memorandum?

_A._ Yes; I write on the back of the notes, and that is my hand-writing.

_Benjamin Lance called again;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ On the 24th of February, did you go to the Bank to exchange any bank notes for smaller notes?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ By whose desire did you go?

_A._ Mr. Butt's.

_Q._ Are those the two notes you received from him to exchange? [_shewing the witness the two notes for £.100. each, produced by the bank clerk._]

_A._ They are.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Have you seen those £.100. notes, which you carried to the Bank to exchange for smaller notes?

_A._ I have this moment.

_Mr. Gurney._ What did you receive in exchange for them?

_A._ I received two hundred notes for one pound each.

_Q._ What did you do with those notes?

_A._ I gave them to Mr. Butt.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Scarlett._

_Q._ Have you any connexion with Mr. Smallbone.

_A._ Yes, I am with Mr. Smallbone.

_Q._ Do you remember at any time, on the 15th of February, Mr. Butt lending Lord Cochrane two hundred pounds, in order to make up a sum that he had to pay?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ On the 15th of February?

_A._ Yes, it might be on the 15th of February.

_Q._ Do you remember going with that check [_shewing it to the witness_] which was afterwards given by Mr. Smallbone, to get the money?

_A._ Yes, that check for £.470. 19_s._ 4_d._

_Q._ That bears date the 19th of February?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ You were the person who took that to the banker's, to get the money for it?

_A._ Exactly so.

_Q._ You say you know Mr. Butt did lend Lord Cochrane two hundred pounds?

_A._ So I understood; I did not see him lend it.

_Mr. Gurney._ He does not know that it was lent?

_Mr. Scarlett._ How do you know that it was lent?

_A._ Only by Mr. Butt saying so.

_Lord Ellenborough._ At what time?

_A._ The 15th of February.

_Lord Ellenborough._ This check is dated the 19th?

_Mr. Scarlett._ You received in payment for that check, two notes of £.100. each?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Q._ What did you do with those two notes of 100_l._ each?

_A._ I gave them to Lord Cochrane.

_Q._ That was on the 19th of February?

_A._ Yes, it was.

_Q._ Were you present when Lord Cochrane paid those notes back to Mr. Butt?

_A._ I was not.

_Q._ Though you were not present when those notes were given by him to Mr. Butt, do you know that those notes were in Mr. Butt's hands afterwards?

_A._ I know of receiving them from him.

_Q._ Though you paid them to Lord Cochrane upon the 19th, did you not afterwards receive them from Mr. Butt?

_A._ I received the two £.100. notes I have now looked at from Mr. Butt.

_Q._ It was by Mr. Butt's desire you changed them for small notes at the Bank?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ That you say was the 24th of February?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ For Mr. Butt?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Was Lord Cochrane in the city at that time?

_A._ Not that I know of.

_Q._ Do you know on the 15th of February of any loan made by Mr. Smallbone to Lord Cochrane?

_A._ Yes, I do.

_Mr. Gurney._ Do you know that of your own knowledge, or how do you know that?

_A._ I know that of my own knowledge.

_Mr. Scarlett._ I believe you know that my Lord had a certain sum to make up to pay what he owed at that time?

_A._ He had.

_Q._ How much was that amount?

_A._ I am not prepared to tell you the exact amount.

_Q._ Was it between six and seven hundred pounds?

_A._ More than that.

_Q._ Do not you know that he was without the money in the City, to make it up at that time?

_A._ He was.

_Q._ How much did he borrow of Mr. Smallbone?

_A._ I cannot say exactly.

_Q._ Was it £.450.?

_A._ £.450. I think, was advanced by me as clerk to Mr. Smallbone.

_Lord Ellenborough._. In all £.450.

_A._ In all £.450.

_Q._ £.250. in these bank notes?

_A._ No, £.450. besides these bank notes.

_Lord Ellenborough._ The £.450. is to be added to these bank notes?

_Mr. Scarlett._ The witness was not present when Mr. Butt lent the £.200. I was about to shew, that besides the £.450. that Mr. Smallbone lent, Lord Cochrane wanted £.200. more, and that he went out to get it.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Did you see the £.200. lent to Lord Cochrane?

_A._ No.

_Q._ How do you know it was lent?

_A._ Because I was told so by Lord Cochrane.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Then it comes to nothing?

_Mr. Scarlett._ He knows the fact that he wanted the £.200. You advanced £.450. yourself?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Lord Ellenborough._ In gold or bank notes?

_A._ In bank notes.

_Q._ In what description of bank notes?

_A._ The money was lent in fact by Mr. Smallbone, and he made up the difference; it is not usual to pay in bank notes, and we made it up in checks; his Lordship had left his money at the west end of the town.

_Mr. Scarlett._ You advanced his Lordship £.450.?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Was that all that he wanted, or did he want more?

_A._ No, he wanted £.200. more.

_Lord Ellenborough._ This advance must all be in paper?

_Mr. Scarlett._ Yes, my Lord, it is not material to my purpose to shew how Mr. Butt made this advance to him.

_Lord Ellenborough._ If it was a loan and you rely upon it as such, you must shew in what it was?

_A._ The £.450. was in a check.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Then that check must be shewn.

_Mr. Scarlett._ Mr. Butt was not present, was he?

_A._ Not that I know of.

_Q._ At what time Lord Cochrane gave these two £.100. notes to Mr. Butt you do not know, do you?

_A._ No.

_Q._ But it was not by Lord Cochrane's desire you took them to the Bank.

_A._ No; by Mr. Butt's.

_Mr. John Bilson sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Look at these two £.100. notes; on the 24th of February; were those two notes of £.100. each brought to the Bank to be exchanged for one pound notes?

_A._ They were entered for payment in the Bank on that day.

_Q._ Have you there the book in which your own entries are made, or those which are made by Mr. Northover?

_A._ I have the book in which is my own hand-writing.

_Q._ What notes did you pay this in?

_A._ One pound notes.

_Q._ You make the entries, and the other clerk gives over the notes?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Have you all the numbers there?

_A._ Yes, I have.

_Mr. Gurney._ I am sorry to trouble your Lordship with having these numbers read; they do not happen to be in sequence. Will you go over those numbers?

_A._ 27th August, No. 1,048.

_Lord Ellenborough._ You had better see what you apply your proof to, otherwise he must go through the list.

_Mr. Gurney._ I am told these clerks have examined all these notes. You have looked over all these notes found in Mr. De Berenger's trunk, have you not?

_A._ I have not looked over them to-day; we looked over them before the Grand Jury.

_Q._ Look over that parcel, and tell me whether you paid all that parcel [_handing a parcel of bank notes to the witness_.]

[_The Witness and Mr. Thomas Northover examined the notes._]

_A._ Yes; those were paid.

_Q._ There are forty-nine in number?

_A._ Yes.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Were all those forty-nine part of the two hundred pounds that were given in exchange for the two £.100. notes?

_A._ They were.

_A Juryman._ What were the numbers of the two £.100. notes?

_A._ No. 16,601 and No. 18,468.

_Mr. Hilary Miller sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ You are a clerk in the Bank?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Have you forty-seven one pound notes that have come into the bank?

_A._ I have fifty-seven [_the witness produces them_.]

_Mr. Gurney._ (_to Bilson and Northover_) Look and see whether those fifty-seven are also part of the same payment?

_Miller._ I believe that part of those notes were received at another period.

_Mr. Northover._ They do not appear to arise from this transaction.

_Mr. Gurney._ I will state to your Lordship the effect of this; perhaps it is hardly worth pursuing; they came into the bank from various quarters, and Mr. De Berenger's name is upon them, but not in his hand-writing.

_Mr. Bilson._ Here are some of them in this account.

_Lord Ellenborough._ They do not appear to be evidence.

_Mr. Gurney._ Then I will not pursue that.

_Thomas Christmas sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ Were you clerk to Mr. Fearn, in February last?

_A._ I was.

_Q._ Do you recollect being sent on the 24th of February to change a note for two hundred pounds?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ By whom were you sent?

_A._ By Mr. Fearn.

_Q._ Where did you go to change that note?

_A._ To Messrs. Bond & Pattesall.

_Q._ Look at that bank note (No. 634), is that the bank note which you changed?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ What did you receive in exchange for it?

_A._ Two notes of £.100. each.

_Q._ Did you take those two notes of £.100. each to the bank?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ For what did you change them there?

_A._ Two hundred notes of one pound each.

_Q._ What did you do with those two hundred notes of one pound each?

_A._ I gave them to Mr. Fearn.

_Q._ In whose presence?

_A._ Two or three gentlemen in his office.

_Q._ Who were those gentlemen?

_A._ I do not recollect.

_Q._ Were Mr. Butt or Mr. Cochrane Johnstone there then?

_A._ No, they were neither of them there then.

_Q._ Did you see what Mr. Fearn did with those notes?

_A._ No, I did not.

_Q._ Did you put your name upon the two £.100. notes before you gave them into the bank?

_A._ I put Mr. Fearn's name upon them.

[_Mr. Miller produced two £.100. notes._]

_Q._ Are those the two?

_A._ Yes they are.

_Q._ What are their numbers?

_A._ 19,482 and 19,592.

_Mr. Joseph Fearn called again;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ On the 24th of February did you receive from Christmas two hundred notes of one pound each?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ To whom did you give those notes?

_A._ To Mr. Butt.

_Q._ Did you see what Mr. Butt did with them?

_A._ He gave them to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.

_Mr. John Bilson and Mr. Thomas Northover called again._

_Mr. Gurney._ Did you on the 24th of February pay a £.100. Bank note No. 19,482?

_Mr. Bilson._ We paid to Fearn on that day two hundred one pound notes for two notes of £.100. each.

_Q._ Are those the two notes for which you paid them, [_shewing them to the Witness_]?

_A._ Those are the two notes.

_A Juryman._ What are the numbers?

_A._ 19,482, the 4th of February 1814, and 19,592 of the same date.

_Mr. Gurney._ I am now going to put into the hands of the witnesses sixty-seven notes found in Mr. De Berenger's writing desk, for him to see whether they are not part of those he paid for those two £.100. notes?

[_The Witnesses compared them._]

_Mr. Bilson._ These are part of the notes we paid to Fearn on the 24th of February.

_Lord Ellenborough._ The whole sixty-seven?

_A._ Yes.

_Mr. Joseph Fearn;_

_Cross-examined by Mr. Brougham._

_Q._ When Christmas brought back these two hundred one pound notes from the bank, you say they were given to Mr. Butt?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ And you say Mr. Butt afterwards gave them to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did you see him give them?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did you see Mr. Butt give him the other two hundred one pound notes he got from Lance?

_A._ No.

_Q._ You were not present then?

_A._ No, I was not.

_Mr. Adolphus._ We wish Mr. Wood now to produce out of the desk a watch, which he found in the possession of Mr. De Berenger.

[_The Witness produced two watches._]

_Q._ Were they both in the box when you found it?

_A._ They were.

_Mr. Bishop Bramley sworn;_

_Examined by Mr. Adolphus._

_Q._ What are you?

_A._ A watchmaker and silversmith.

_Q._ Do you live at Hull?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Look at those watches that lie there; did you sell those watches?

_A._ No, neither of those.

_Q._ Did you sell a watch to the gentleman who sits there?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ For how much money?

_A._ Twenty-nine guineas and a half, £30. 19_s._ 6_d._

_Q._ When was that?

_A._ The 4th of March.

_Q._ What name did he pass by?

_A._ We did not hear any name.

_Q._ How did he pay you?

_A._ In one pound Bank of England notes.

_Q._ Did you write any name upon them?

_A._ I put my own initials upon them.

_Q._ So that you will know them again if they are produced?

_A._ Yes.

[_Mr. Miller produced some bank notes._]

_Mr. Adolphus (to Bramley.)_ Look at those, and see whether those are part of what you received?

_A._ All these notes we took of the gentleman we sold the watch to, on the 4th of March.

_Q._ And that is the gentleman who sits there? (_pointing to De Berenger._)

_A._ Yes.

_Lord Ellenborough._ What mark have you put upon them to know them again?

_A._ My own initials and the dates; it is written at the top end of the note.

_Q._ How are you enabled to say that those seven notes are what you received from the person who bought that watch?

_A._ We took no other Bank of England notes on that day.

_Q._ You marked them at the time you received them?

_A._ Yes, I received twenty in the forenoon, and the other eleven in the afternoon, and I marked them and paid them away the same afternoon.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._

_Q._ I understand you to say neither of those watches found in the possession of Mr. De Berenger is the watch you sold?

_A._ Neither of them.

_Q._ You wrote upon all the notes?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Those are the only seven you have seen since?

_A._ Yes.

_Mr. Gurney._ You paid them all away?

_A._ We did.

_John Bilson and Thomas Northover called again._

_Mr. Gurney._ Have the goodness to look over your book, and see whether those seven were part of the two hundred that were paid to Fearn?

[_The Witnesses examined them._]

_Mr. Bilson._ Those seven notes were part of the property paid to Fearn on the 24th of February.

_Benjamin Lance called again;_

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ On the 25th of February, did you give Mr. Butt a check on Prescott & Company, for £.98. 2_s._ 6_d._?

_A._ On the 26th of February I did.

_Q._ Is that the check? [_shewing it to the witness._]

_A._ That is the check.

_John Isherwood sworn;_