Part 11

_A._ Yes; the boy was unacquainted with the town, and he went to the house opposite with the note, and a man pointed to me as I was standing at the door.

_Q._ At what time did the chaise come with Mr. Sandom and those gentlemen?

_A._ I think it could not exceed an hour; I was quite surprised at the chaise coming back in so short a time.

_Q._ What is Mr. Sandom, do you know him?

_A._ I only know him from his occasionally having horses to take him to Northfleet; I understood he lived there.

_Q._ How long had he lived there?

_A._ That I really cannot say; I think he had been in the habits of occasionally having horses from me for nine months before that time.

_Foxall Baldry sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Bolland._

_Q._ You are a post-boy at the Rose at Dartford?

_A._ I ride occasionally.

_Q._ Did you ride on the morning of the 21st?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ Do you recollect a chaise coming from Northfleet to your house?

_A._ Yes I do.

_Q._ Who was in that chaise do you recollect?

_A._ I have seen one of the gentlemen since; I did not know Mr. Sandom at the time personally.

_Q._ Was Mr. Sandom one of those persons?

_A._ Yes he was.

_Q._ Do you know the other two of those persons?

_A._ I do not.

_Q._ Did you drive either of the pair of horses that took those gentlemen to town?

_A._ I drove the leaders.

_Q._ Did they give you any orders as to which way they were to go?

_A._ Just as we were coming to Shooter's Hill, Mr. Sandom got out of the chaise with one of those other gentlemen, walked some little distance, and when he came back I was altering my harness; and he beckoned me, and said, My lads we do not want you to distress your horses up this hill, but when you get up you may get on a little: He asked what the gates were, and said, I shall give you twelve shillings a-piece for driving; but as to saying to what part I did not know at the time; my fellow-servant at the wheel ordered me to go over London Bridge, down Lombard Street, along Cheapside, over Blackfriar's Bridge, down the New Cut, and when I was in sight of the Marsh gate I was ordered to stop.

_Q._ Did you take that course?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ How was Mr. Sandom drest?

_A._ Why I really cannot say, but I think he had a brown great coat on.

_Q._ How were the other two persons dressed?

_A._ They were in blue great coats I think.

_Q._ Do you recollect what sort of hats they had?

_A._ They had round hats when they left me.

_Q._ What sort of hats had they when they got into the chaise?

_A._ They had military hats on.

_Q._ Was there any ornament in the hats?

_A._ A paper or ribband, I cannot tell which.

_Q._ Had the horses any ornaments upon them?

_A._ Yes, laurels.

_Q._ Do you know by whose orders they were put on?

_A._ No, I do not.

_Q._ You were near the Marsh gate you say?

_A._ Yes, I could see the Marsh-gate when I pulled up.

_Q._ Did the parties get out there?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ How were they dressed then?

_A._ They had taken off their military hats and put round ones on, and they walked away.

_Q._ At what hour in the morning was it when you got to the Marsh gate?

_A._ I should think about eleven o'clock; I cannot say for half an hour.

_Q._ Did Mr. Sandom give you any thing?

_A._ Not at that time.

_Q._ Did he pay for the chaise?

_A._ He did not, not there.

_Q._ Has he since given you any thing?

_A._ He asked us what house we stopped at, I told him the Bull at Kent Street end, and he came to us there, and gave my fellow-servant a one pound note, and the remainder in silver for him and me together.

_Q._ Did he pay for the chaise?

_A._ He did not pay for the chaise.

_Q._ Did either of the other two return with him?

_A._ They did not.

_Mr. Francis Baily called again._

_Examined by Mr. Bolland._

_Q._ In consequence of enquiries that had been made, did Mr. Holloway attend the Committee of the Stock Exchange?

_A._ He did.

_Q._ Did Mr. Lyte attend also?

_A._ Afterwards he did with Mr. Holloway; first Mr. Holloway came, and denied having any knowledge of the transaction.

_Q._ Did you see him again at any other time?

_A._ Yes, very near the time of the bill being found; I cannot tell whether before or after that, he came with Mr. Lyte and confessed that he was the person who had planned that plot, or participated in it.

_Q._ State what he said as nearly as you can recollect?

_A._ He said that he had done it with a view to obtain money by a rise in the public funds; and Mr. Lyte stated, that he was one of the parties who had been employed by Mr. M'Rae, at Mr. Holloway's suggestion; at Holloway's or M'Rae's.

_Q._ Did either of them say who were the actors in the plot?

_A._ Mr. Lyte said that he and Sandom and M'Rae rode in the post chaise from Northfleet to Dartford, and afterwards from Dartford to London.

_Lord Ellenborough._ In whose presence did Lyte state this?

_A._ Mr. Wakefield was present, Mr. Lavie was present, and a Mr. Chaumette.

_Q._ Was Holloway present then?

_A._ Yes he was; they both came together.

_Q._ What Lyte stated was in the presence of Holloway?

_A._ Exactly so. Holloway stated that he did it with a view of obtaining money, by the rise in the funds.

_Q._ Did he state any thing more?

_A._ He stated that he was not aware of the serious turn it would take; that he did not contemplate it in that point of view at first; but finding that it had taken so serious a turn, he had come forward and confessed it, in the hope that the Stock Exchange would not pursue it to extremities, and carry on the action against him, or the prosecution: He was asked whether he had any connection with Lord Cochrane, Cochrane Johnstone, or Mr. Butt, which he denied.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Pell._

_Q._ Do you know what it was that immediately led to Mr. Holloway's making this communication to the Stock Exchange?

_A._ No I do not; nothing more than the publicity of the measures which they were taking to follow up the parties, I believe.

_Q._ Did you not learn at the time from Mr. Holloway during this conversation, and from Mr. Lyte, that M'Rae had offered to come forward for a very considerable sum of money and state his knowledge of the transaction?

_A._ That had been stated before publicly I believe in Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's letter.

_Q._ I ask as to the conversation at the time, do you recollect whether or not at the time of this interview between Holloway, Lyte, and the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange, any thing was said about M'Rae's having offered to be a witness for a large sum of money?

_A._ There was certainly something said, but whether it was mentioned first by the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange, or by Mr. Holloway, I cannot recollect.

_Q._ Did not Mr. Holloway state, that in order to prevent the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange paying a large sum of money for the communication that would be paid in fact for nothing, he would come forward and state the part of the transaction in which he was concerned?

_A._ I believe he did.

_Q._ It was understood by the gentlemen of the Stock Exchange, was it not, that that communication of M'Rae's was supposed to extend to my Lord Cochrane's part in the transaction?

_Mr. Gurney._ What was understood cannot be asked.

_Mr. Serjeant Pell._ I ask as to what was said at the time, was it not said that M'Rae's communication was to affect Lord Cochrane's share in the transaction?

_A._ I do not recollect that that was stated.

_Q._ I think you stated that Mr. Holloway or Mr. Lyte distinctly asserted, that this business of theirs had nothing to do with that in which Lord Cochrane was concerned?

_A._ He did.

_Q._ Do you know what was the sum that it was stated M'Rae was to be a witness for, was not it so large a sum as £10,000?

_A._ That sum had been stated in a letter which passed?

_Q._ Was it not stated in the conversation?

_A._ I believe it was; but the subject of the communication of M'Rae was so little attended to by the Committee, that it never entered their heads that any such sum should be paid.

_Q._ Was there any letter, or any writing of Mr. Holloway's produced at the time?

_A._ I really cannot fix my memory.

_Q._ Have you any recollection of any letter of his having been produced at the time?

_A._ Certainly none that I can recollect.

_Q._ Do you not know that Mr. Holloway had written a letter to the Committee of the Stock Exchange upon this business?

_A._ I really do not know it; it may possibly have been.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Park._

_Q._ This person Holloway was asked whether he had any connection with Lord Cochrane, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, and Mr. Butt, and he denied it?

_A._ He did.

_Q._ Did he not, in the same conversation, deny that he had any connection, not only with those persons, but De Berenger also?

_A._ Certainly.

_Q._ That you dropped?

_A._ Yes, I did not mean to drop it.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Alley._

_Q._ At the time this conversation passed between you and Holloway, M'Rae was not there?

_A._ He was not.

_Q._ It was all in his absence?

_A._ It was in his absence, it was in Mr. Lavie's office.

_Lord Ellenborough._ The evidence of course can operate only against Holloway and Lyte, who were there.

_Mr. Joseph Fearn sworn._

_Examined by Mr. Gurney._

_Q._ You are a stock broker?

_A._ I am.

_Q._ How long have you known Mr. Butt?

_A._ Several years.

_Q._ Were you introduced by him to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone and to Lord Cochrane.

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ In the month of February last, were you employed either by Mr. Butt or Lord Cochrane, or Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, to make any purchases for them in the funds?

_A._ Yes, I was.

_Q._ At that time where was your office of business?

_A._ No. 10, Cornhill.

_Q._ Was it No. 10 or No. 86, about the 12th of February?

_A._ I believe it was No. 86.

_Q._ Had Mr. Butt an office?

_A._ He had somewhere about that time an office in Sweetings Alley.

_Q._ From the 12th of February to the 19th of February, did you see Mr. Butt daily?

_A._ I think I did.

_Q._ At your office or at his?

_A._ Both.

_Q._ Did you generally see him alone, or in company with either of the other persons?

_A._ Frequently all three together.

_Q._ You mean Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, Lord Cochrane, and Mr. Butt?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ When you did business for Lord Cochrane, did you in all instances take orders from him or from any person for him?

_A._ Sometimes from him, and sometimes from Mr. Butt.

_Q._ After you had acted for him upon the orders of Mr. Butt, did he recognize those orders?

_A._ Always.

_Q._ From the 12th till the 19th, did you make various purchases and sales for them?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ On the evening of the 19th, what balance had he in his hand; Lord Cochrane's transactions I believe were only in omnium?

_A._ No.

_Q._ The amount was £139,000, was it not?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ That is to say, that he had that balance of omnium?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ What balance of omnium had Mr. Cochrane Johnstone on that day?

_A._ £120,000.

_Q._ One hundred and twenty, or one hundred and thirty thousand?

_A._ I have not drawn out the balance here.

_Q._ What was Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's consol account on that day?

_A._ £100,000.

_Q._ How much had Mr. Butt of omnium at the same time?

_A._ I think about £160,000.

_Q._ Is not the omnium £130,000.

_A._ I should think more than that; I believe it was £154,000.

_Q._ How much his consols?

_A._ £168,000.

_Q._ On the morning of the 21st of February, did you sell them all?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ Omnium and consols and all?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ On the morning of Monday the 21st, did you remove to any other office than that you had before occupied?

_A._ Yes, I did.

_Q._ Where was that office?

_A._ No. 5, in Shorter's Court.

_Q._ Is that close to the side door of the Stock Exchange?

_A._ Yes, it is.

_Q._ How many rooms were there?

_A._ Three.

_Q._ Had you one?

_A._ I had one and a small closet; Mr. Butt had another up stairs with Mr. Johnstone and my Lord Cochrane, and the ground floor was occupied by Mr. Lance.

_Q._ Was he a clerk of yours, or employed by them?

_A._ He was employed by them.

_Q._ Had you taken that office, or had it been taken for you?

_A._ Mr. Johnstone had taken his with one room or two rooms, I am not sure which.

_Q._ Had the office been taken for you, or had you yourself gone and taken it?

_A._ They had taken those two rooms, I believe, without intending to take any more; but as I was not pleasantly situated, and was rather too far from business, I wished to have an office there, if they could procure it; several of my friends went to look at it, and finding it convenient, I requested them to take the whole of it, if they could, in order that I might be accommodated.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Whom do you mean by friends, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone?

_A._ No, other persons for whom I did business.

_Mr. Gurney._ When was this done?

_A._ In the course of the week preceding.

_Lord Ellenborough._ When you say Mr. Cochrane Johnstone took a room for you, do you mean at this place?

_Q._ They had taken those two rooms, I believe, for themselves, without reference to my having any thing to do there.

_Mr. Gurney._ Did they afterwards take a third?

_A._ They afterwards took the whole that is in my possession.

_Q._ You have all of them in your possession now?

_A._ I have.

_Q._ On the morning of Monday the 21st of February, how soon did you see either of those gentlemen?

_A._ They were in the habit of being at the office as early as I myself attended.

_Q._ At your office in Cornhill?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ How early did you see them at your office that morning?

_A._ I believe at about ten, or a little past.

_Q._ Whom did you then see.

_A._ I think, Mr. Butt and Mr. Johnstone.

_Q._ Are you positive upon that subject?

_A._ I am sure they were both there in the course of the morning.

_Q._ Are you positive whether any body else was with them?

_A._ No, I think nobody else.

_Q._ Business begins in the Stock Exchange I believe at ten o'clock.

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ At what price had consols for time left off on Saturday?

_A._ I can hardly say.

_Q._ Did they open on Monday morning pretty much as they had left off on Saturday evening?

_A._ I think they did.

_Q._ How soon after you had been in the Stock Exchange, did any good news come?

_A._ I think it was near eleven.

_Q._ What news had arrived?

_A._ I cannot take upon me to say; I only knew in general, with perhaps every body in the house in business, that there was some news, but we rarely enquire into particulars of news, it is enough that facts are produced.

_Q._ You were doing a good deal of business at that moment, and must have heard something of it; did you hear any thing about a messenger arriving at Dover?

_A._ I have heard so much since that, I cannot take upon myself to swear what I heard, whether that a messenger had arrived at Dover, or that Bonaparte was killed, but one of the two certainly.

_Q._ Did you hear that Bonaparte was killed?

_A._ Yes.

_A Juryman._ Were those gentlemen with you at the time the news arrived?

_A._ They were--not my Lord Cochrane.

_Mr. Gurney._ Had the good news an immediate effect upon the funds?

_A._ Yes, it had.

_Q._ After the funds had begun to rise, did you sell?

_A._ I began to sell before the rise took place.

_Q._ What was the first price you sold at?

_A._ Omnium at twenty-nine and a quarter.

_Q._ That was the first price you sold at?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Do you mean to say that omnium opened that morning at twenty-nine and a quarter?

_A._ I rather think it did.

_Q._ However, the first price you sold at was twenty-nine and a quarter?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ What was your next price?

_A._ £29-3/8, 29-1/2, and 30-1/2.

_Q._ At what did you sell the consols?

_A._ Beginning at 70-5/8ths, 71-1/4, 71-7/8ths, 72, and 72-1/4.

_Q._ In what manner did you receive instructions for these various sales; they were sold in different parcels?

_A._ Yes, I came frequently to my office from the Stock Exchange to Mr. Butt and Mr. Cochrane Johnstone.

_Q._ And you reported to them and received orders?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Did you receive notes likewise?

_A._ I was in the constant habit of doing so.

_Q._ Did you do so that morning?

_A._ I am not quite certain; but I am in the constant habit of receiving notes from them.

_Q._ Do you remember hearing in the course of the morning, of a post chaise coming through the city?

_A._ I did.

_Q._ Did that occasion a still further rise in the funds?

_A._ I do not know.

_Q._ Before business left off, the funds fell again?

_A._ They did.

_Lord Ellenborough._ About what o'clock did the funds fall?

_A._ I believe about two.

_Mr. Gurney._ It was discovered at that time that the good news was not true?

_A._ It certainly was not believed.

_Q._ Have you an account of the different purchases from the 12th to the 21st, taken from your books?

_A._ I have.

_The Witness delivered in the Accounts._

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ From what are those taken?

_A._ From my books.

_Mr. Gurney._ Have you carried those accounts down to the 5th of March?

_A._ I have.

_Q._ Has Mr. Baily, also had access to your books, to take the different balances?

_A._ He has.

_Mr. Gurney._ The reading of this would not be very intelligible, a sight of it perhaps would be the best thing.

_Lord Ellenborough._ We must have the sum total or the results.

_Mr. Gurney._ I will give your Lordship the result after the examination of several stock brokers; Mr. Baily has abstracted the whole.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ I shall carry back the accounts considerably earlier; that should be understood. If I put in accounts of an earlier date, it must not be considered that I am giving evidence in so doing.

_Mr. Gurney._ I take it the same, as if my learned friend cross examined Mr. Fearn upon that subject.

_Cross-examined by Mr. Serjeant Best_.

_Q._ You have spoken of these gentlemen engaging in stock transactions, you have been carried back no further than February the 8th, they had all three of them bought to an enormous amount long before that time--had they not?

_A._ Certainly.

_Q._ And as to sales, had they not sold very large sums, long antecedent to the month of February?

_A._ Oh yes.

_Q._ Can you state as to my Lord Cochrane, for instance, had he not sold hundreds of thousands before that time?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ I would ask you, did he not from time to time, down to that time, continue to be selling large sums?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ With respect to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone--on the 10th or 11th of February, had he not a balance of £100,000.

_Mr. Gurney._ To save my learned friend time, my account shews every day's purchases, and every day's sales from that time.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ Be so good as to look at that printed paper, and tell me whether that is not a correct statement of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone's account with you.

_A._ I cannot tell from this book.

_Mr. Gurney._ I believe the accounts will agree to a farthing, from the time they each begin.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ Then the larger sales will appear upon this paper without troubling his Lordship to take them down upon his notes; there were very large sales for all of them several days precedent to the 21st.

_A._ Yes, there were.

_Q._ I believe they began these speculations as early as the month of November, did they not?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ Mr. Butt managed principally--very much for these gentlemen--for Lord Cochrane particularly?

_A._ Yes, he did.

_Q._ Lord Cochrane, you have told us, was not there on the morning of the 21st?

_A._ No, he was not.

_Q._ For a great many days, I believe I may say months, had you not been directed to sell their stock whenever it should so rise, that you could get one per cent?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ You have told us that on the morning of the 21st, you began to sell before the news came?

_A._ Yes.

_A Juryman._ He said before the rise took place.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ You found when you came there in the morning, that the stocks had got to such a pitch as that you could sell consistently with the orders they had given you?

_A._ It was so.

_Lord Ellenborough._ At what hour was that?

_A._ Ten o'clock.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ Did you not sell out very large sums before either of them came near the place that morning?

_A._ I think I had began to sell before they came, but I cannot say positively.

_Q._ Had you not sold to a considerable amount, if you can tax your memory with it, or refresh your memory by looking at any book?

_A._ I think I had.

_Q._ Can you tell us to what amount you had sold before any of them came?--I do not ask to a few shillings, we deal in thousands here.

_A._ I cannot positively say--I had done much before I saw either of them, for I was in the habit of doing twenty or thirty and reporting to them.

_Q._ Do you mean thousands?

_A._ Yes.

_Q._ You think you had sold considerably before you saw them?

_A._ I think I had.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Cannot you fix the time of your sale?

_Mr. Gurney._ I shall prove the prices every half hour.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ I am not at all conversant in those things, never having speculated in stock at all, but I am told it is the practice sometimes to sell stock which the persons have not to transfer?

_A._ I have heard of such things.

_Q._ Consequently, if I had been at the Stock Exchange that morning, and had found the Omnium up at 34, which I believe it was that morning----

_Mr. Bolland._ No, thirty two.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ If I had been at the Stock Exchange that morning, and had found the Omnium up at 32, and had known that the good news must soon turn out to be all invention, I might have sold if I had liked, a million of stock, according to the practice of the Stock Exchange, though I did not happen to have a sixpence.

_A._ It certainly might have been done.

_Q._ Is it not the practice for a man who wishes to gamble in the funds, to sell stock which he has not, when he thinks they will fall?

_A._ I know it is done.

_Q._ A man who thinks the stocks may fall, may sell stock he has not, to any person who thinks they may rise?

_A._ It certainly is done.

_Q._ Did either my Lord Cochrane, Mr. Cochrane Johnstone or Mr. Butt, make any such sales on that day to your knowledge, you having stated you were their Broker--do you know of their having sold on that day any stock which they had not purchased before?

_Lord Ellenborough._ Are you not putting this gentleman in a situation of peril?

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ If he admits it.

_Lord Ellenborough._ Why should you place him in such a situation to deny or affirm? This does not affect the charge.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ I ask whether it was done by those persons?

_Lord Ellenborough._ But that would be done through a broker.

_Mr. Taddy._ If your Lordship will allow me to suggest on behalf of the witness, that in an action for the penalties, the question would be whether he knew they were possessed of the stock, or not, and this would go to make out his knowledge.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ Do you know whether either of those persons on that day sold any stock or omnium, which they had not purchased before?

_Lord Ellenborough._ That question must be limited to any thing in which you have not had participation in the way of sale, otherwise you may criminate yourself--having given you that caution, you may do as you please.

_A._ They did not.

_Lord Ellenborough._ That is not imputed to them.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ The use I mean to make of it I have no objection to state now.

_Lord Ellenborough._ No, you need not, I leave it entirely to your judgment.

_Mr. Serjeant Best._ I think you told us before, those gentlemen told you, whenever the stock rose to one per cent, above what they had bought at, to sell.

_A._ Yes, they did.

_Q._ With respect to the taking of this office, when did you first see it?

_A._ In the course of the week anterior to the 21st of February.

_Q._ Mr. Butt had before an office in Sweeting's Alley.

_A._ Yes.