Chapter 3

also.

9050. Do you keep a day-book?-I keep a book for scrawling things into, until they are posted up in the ledger.

9051. Do you buy kelp?-No.

9052. Do you buy hosiery?-A little sometimes.

9053. Do you pay for it in the way that is usual in the country, by goods across the counter?-Yes, mostly.

9054. Do you give out wool to knit?-I sometimes give out worsted, and I pay for the knitting of it in the same way.

9055. Have you a knitters' book, or are the knitters' accounts kept in the ledger?-I keep a book for women's accounts.

9056. Is that book used entirely for sales of hosiery?-No. We don't do a great deal in hosiery. We buy few haps and small shawls, but the principal thing we buy is worsted. I buy a good deal in the course year from the spinners, and I sell it chiefly in Lerwick to the merchants there. I sell most of it to Mr. Robert Linklater. I invoice it to the merchants, and I take a note of the quantities when I send them away.

9057. When did you send away the last?-I suppose it would be about a couple of months ago.

9058. At what price did you send it out?-We get 3d. per cut for very fine, and 21/2d. and 2d. for the coarsest.

9059. You sell to the merchants as a sort of wholesale dealer?- Yes.

9060. The price per pound of that worsted varies according to the quality?-Yes.

9061. It does not correspond with the price per cut in any way?- No. Of course the finer the worsted the finer the thread is.

9062. You do not calculate the price of that worsted, by the pound at all?-No. We just judge of the fineness or the thickness of it.

9063. The names of the men who were fishing for you in 1871 are entered in the ledger?-Yes.

9064. Had you generally more than two boats previous to last year?-Yes. We sometimes had four, but that was the most I ever had. This [showing] is the company account for one of the boats, Basil Ramsay & Co., and then there are the private accounts of the men.

9065. In Basil Ramsay's private account, the entry 'to cash to rent' on November 17, 1869, referred to cash advanced to him for the purpose of paying his rent?-Yes. He was at that time £2, 11s. 61/2d. in my debt upon the settlement of the previous year. After a bad year I have to advance money to the fishermen in that way, in order to prevent them from being turned out.

9066. Here [showing] is an account of Janet Sinclair, Herra: who is she?-She keeps a small shop of her own, and sells things for me at Herra and buys worsted for me.

9067. Have you many women employed in that way selling goods for you?-Only that one.

9068. In another account there is meal 3s.-that would be half a lispund-in August 1871: was that the selling price at the time?- Very likely it was.

9069. There is also flour 1s. 2d. on the same date: how much was that?-8 lbs., or a peck.

9070. Where do you get your supplies of meal and flour?-Chiefly from Lerwick, from R. & C. Robertson.

9071. Would you consider yourself likely to drive a much larger business if you had a number of fishermen in your employment?- I don't know. Of course there would be more men and more stir and more traffic, and I would likely turn over more goods, because if the men could buy as cheaply from me they would not go anywhere else.

9072. Have you ever had any difficulty in getting the men from another merchant to fish for you in consequence of them being in debt to that other merchant-I never tried that.

9073. But have you found that men had difficulty in engaging with you on that account?-No.

9074. Have you ever been asked by any merchant to undertake the debt due to him by any man whom you employed?-I have never been asked by the merchant, but I have been asked by the men for a little money to clear off their account with another merchant when I engaged them.

9075. Have you been asked to be a security for them?-No. I have only given them cash.

9076. When did you do that last?-It is five years ago. There was a boat's crew who left Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at that time and came over to me. That was Basil Ramsay's boat.

9077. And you advanced them money with which to pay their debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; there was a little advance required.

9078. Do you suppose you will have that to do with the boats' crews you have engaged this year?-I don't think so.

9079. Do you know whether they are clear?-I don't know.

9080. How do you ascertain the current price at the end of the year for settling with your men?-We know what the fish cost, and we know what they sell for. We know what the wet fish turn out dry. We can make a calculation of that from the quantity of green fish delivered to us and from the quantity of dry fish which we have to sell.

9081. How much was the proportion in your settlement last year?-I cannot tell exactly what it was last year, but on an average it is 2 cwt. 14 lbs. to 2 cwt. 20 lbs. of wet fish to 1 cwt. of dry fish.

9082. Do you make the allowance according to the proportion you ascertain in each year to exist between your total weight of dry fish and your total weight of green fish?-Yes; there are calculations of that kind made. I don't do it personally, but I believe some of the big curers do it, and then we pay after them.

9083. Do all the large curers agree upon a certain average for each year?-No; they don't make each other acquainted with that. They just pay according to what they sell the fish for, and they give the fishermen the benefit of the rise or fall in the market.

[Page 220]

9084. I am not talking of the average of the current price; I am talking of the average weight of the dry fish as against the green. Does each merchant make his own calculation with regard to that?-I suppose so. I have made calculations in some years, and in others I have not.

9085. How do you take it when you do not make it calculation?-I wait until I see what is current, and then I pay the same.

9086. That is for the money price, but the current price depends on the proportion of dry fish to green?-Yes.

9087. You find out what the large curers have been selling for or have been allowing their men, and you give the same?-Yes.

9088. Are you aware whether all the large curers give the same current price or does it vary with the different houses?-In North Yell, Spence & Co. have some fishermen, and Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have some. We hear what their men are paid, and then our men are paid the same.

9089. Do Pole Hoseason, & Co, and Spence & Co., so far as you know, always pay the same rate?-Yes.

9090. Do you know how their current rate is fixed, or how it is ascertained what the men are to get?-I suppose they just make a calculation in the way I have mentioned.

9091. But you don't know anything about it except that you hear what they pay?-No. I make a calculation for myself to see whether it is over or under, but we tell our men that we will give the current price stated for these parties if they will come and fish for us.

9092. Is your bargain with regard to boat hire the price of lines, and so on, the same with your men as Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have with their men?-Sometimes it varies a little; it is not always fixed. Sometimes we give the men half-a-year's hire off, as an encouragement. They are what are called freemen, and we have to give them some inducement before they will come to us.

9093. What is the usual hire in Yell?-The hire is divided into two. It is £6: £2, 8s. for the boat, and £3, 12s. for the lines.

9094. Is that charged against the boat in the company account?- It is just made up in the balance with the men, and settled for by them. They always carry pass-books.

9095. Then that does not enter the company account?-No.

9096. What is entered in the company account?-It is just the goods got for the supply of the men during the fishing season at the fishing station. [Shows one account.] The North Yell account is an account kept at the station in a pass-book. The boat's hire is estimated before the earnings are divided into six; we make a balance sheet of it, which is added up, and then we place each man's balance to his account.

9097. When you make a deduction from the boat hire as an inducement for the men to fish for you, do you mean that instead of £2, 8s. you charge them only £1, 4s.?-Sometimes we take more off than that. Perhaps on a £6 hire we will take off £3.

9098. Is not that a very liberal deduction?-Yes.

9099. You cannot have much profit on your boats when you do that?-There is no profit on the boats whatever.

9100. What profit do you get on hiring out boats at all?-We get no benefit from that. We only get little benefit from the fish and from the goods sold.

9101. Is it usual to allow so large a deduction from the boat hire?-I cannot say what is done by any one but myself. We have not been in the habit of doing it much. We sometimes take a little off the hire of the boat, in order to make it as moderate for the men as possible.

9102. Are you doing that just now in order to induce fishermen to come to you?-Yes. They come and say they will fish for us if we will give them the currency, and perhaps half the hire down, or the whole hire down.

9103. So that the deduction on the boat hire is really a premium for them coming to fish for you?-Exactly.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ROBERT SMITH, examined.

9104. You are now a fisherman and tenant at Burravoe, on the land of Mr. Henderson?-I am.

9105. Were you formerly resident on the island of Samphray?- Yes. I was there for 35 years.

9106. For whom did you fish when you were there?-For Mr. Robert Hoseason, and his son-in-law James Hoseason, all that time.

9107. Did the island belong to them?-Half of it did, and the other half belonged to Lord Zetland. I lived on Mr. Hoseason's half.

9108. Were you bound to fish for them at that time?-Yes.

9109. Did you ever sell your fish to any one else?-No; we had no occasion to do so, because we got the same payment from him as from another.

9110. Did you never sell your winter fish to another?-No.

9111. Where did you get your supplies at that time?-From Mr. Hoseason at Mossbank.

9112. You kept an account with him, and settled at the end of the year?-Yes, every year.

9113. Had you generally anything to get at the settlement?- Sometimes we had a few pounds to get, and sometimes we could not afford to pay the balance.

9114. You never dealt anywhere else at all?-No; there was no one else near hand that we could have gone to.

9115. Did you never think of going to Lerwick?-No; we went very often to Lerwick, but not in the way of dealing. It was always from Mr. Hoseason that we got what we wanted when he was employing

9116. When you left Samphray you came to Burravoe?-Yes.

9117. Why did you leave?-Because Samphray was thrown waste and made into a park for sheep and cattle.

9118. You have since lived at Burravoe and fished for Mr. Henderson?-Yes.

9119. You have been a skipper of his?-Yes.

9120. Are you to fish for him next year?-I don't know if I will be able to go; I am getting too old. I have been at the fishing every year since 1820.

9121. Is it the bargain with you at Burravoe that you are to fish for your landlord?-Yes.

9122. But you will not be put out of your land if you give up fishing altogether?-No, not that I know of. I have no thought of that at the present time; at least I have no knowledge of it.

9123. Have you spoken to Mr. Henderson about not fishing for him next year?-I have not. I have not made a settlement yet.

9124. Did he not tell you that he would not remove you this year?-No, he has not told me that; but I expect that he will not remove me if I can pay my rent. He has been very kind to me.

9125. Are you sure that he did not tell you that you might remain this year?-I am sure he did not, but he told me that he would not throw me off while I was able to do anything. That is all the security I have.

9126. What do you mean by doing anything?-Any employment that he may put me to, or anything in the way of fishing if I am able to go to it.

9127. Does not the payment of your rent depend upon your fishing?-Sometimes it does; but if I have a cow to dispose of and he requires it, he takes it. If he does not require it, I am at liberty to dispose of it to any one that I can sell it to.

9128. When he takes it, how do you settle about the price?-It generally goes into my account.

[Page 221]

9129. But who fixes the price that is put upon it?-I do. I ask him if he will give me so much for it, and if I can get a better price elsewhere I can sell it there.

9130. Did you ever sell a cow to anybody else than Mr. Henderson?-Yes. I have not sold cows, but I have sold young stots. About three years ago I sold three young stots- one to Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, and another to a man who came round; I don't know his name.

9131. Did not Mr. Henderson want these?-No. He engaged for one, and then when the man came about asking if he could get beasts to buy, Mr. Henderson told him to call upon us for them.

9132. Did Mr. Leask and the other man pay the money down to you for the beasts they bought?-Yes; it was sent from Lerwick to me.

9133. Were you due rent to Mr. Henderson at that time, or any account for goods?-Perhaps I was; it was very seldom that I was not due him an account.

9134. Why was that?-Because the fishing often did not turn out well.

9135. Did you ever go to any one except Mr. Henderson for your goods since you went to live at Burravoe?-If Mr. Henderson did not have what we wanted, then we would go to another for it.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ANDREW BLANCE, examined.

9136. Are you a fisherman, living at Burravoe?-Yes. I am a fisherman, but part of my time has been employed in the seal and whale fishing.

9137. Have you any land at Burravoe?-Yes, I occupy some land there under Mr. M'Queen.

9138. Have you ever been at the summer fishing?-Yes; I was at the ling fishing for two years, one year for Mr. William Williamson, who has lately left Ulsta, and the other year for Mr. Henderson.

9139. When you were at Ulsta did you run an account for what you wanted from Mr. Williamson?-Yes, a small account. If he had any small things that I wanted, and if I saw that I could get them a bargain, I took them from him.

9140. That account was settled at the end of the year?-Yes.

9141. And you got the other things you wanted at Burravoe or Lerwick, or wherever you liked?-Yes.

9142. Where did you get most of your goods?-At Lerwick.

9143. Did you find it more profitable to get them there?-I don't know that it was more profitable; but for a long time the most of my accounts have been in Lerwick.

9144. How often have you been at the seal and whale fishing?-I have been there every year for, I think, the last fifteen or fourteen years.

9145. Is that the reason why most of your accounts are in Lerwick?-I suppose it is.

9146. It is handier for you to have them there when you go to the whale fishing?-Yes.

9147. What agent do you generally engage with for that fishing?- Messrs. Hay & Co. I have always engaged through them, except one season when I was engaged for six weeks by Mr. Leask. That was for the sealing voyage in 1867.

9148. When do you generally go to Lerwick to engage for the whaling?-About the end of February or beginning of March.

9149. Do you go straight to Messrs. Hay's office and tell them you want an engagement?-No, I don't go straight there; but I have always found them very favourable towards me, and therefore I have always been inclined to go out from them.

9150. Do you get your outfit supplied there?-Yes, if I require it.

9151. Do you require a new outfit for the whaling every year?- We always require something new.

9152. Do you also require supplies for your family while you are away at the fishing, such as meal, tea, flour, and things of that sort, and clothing?-Yes.

9153. Where do you keep your account for these things?-With Messrs. Hay & Co.

9154. You always get an advance paid down to you when you are first engaged?-Yes; we get our first month's advance, and then we get a half-pay ticket.

9155. Do you always get a half-pay ticket?-Yes, those who require it.

9156. But do you always get it?-Yes; I have got it ever since it came up. I think it is only four or five years since it came to be used in Shetland.

9157. Were there no allotment tickets in use before four or five years ago?-No, not in Shetland. I never saw them before that time.

9158. Do you leave your allotment ticket with your wife?-We can leave it with any one we choose. I have generally left it with Messrs. Hay.

9159. Did you write anything upon it when you left it with them?-No.

9160. Is the allotment ticket an order to pay to you?-Yes, or to any name which is signed on it.

9161. Was it generally taken in your own name?-I had to mention the name of some person to be filled into the note, and the name of any person that I wanted to draw the money was signed there.

9162. What name did you generally give to be entered in the note?-I forget; but I think the name of Mr. William Robertson, in Messrs. Hay's shop, has been upon it.

9163. Was that done last year?-Yes.

9164. Was his name on it in 1870 also?-I cannot exactly say.

9165. But last year you know that it was?-Yes.

9166. And he was to draw the money on your half-pay allotment ticket?-Yes; he has the ticket, and while he keeps it he knows that no person can be drawing the money. They know that the money is lying, but I don't think Mr. Robertson has drawn the halfpay for me ever since the system commenced.

9167. Was the purpose of giving the allotment ticket to Mr. Robertson, that Messrs. Hay might give your family credit for goods in your absence; or was it a sort of security?-It was a sort of security; but I had no fear about them providing for my family, even although they had not got the ticket.

9168. You think they would have made the advances at any rate?-Yes. They never refused either goods or money.

9169. But still the allotment ticket was a sort of security to them?-Yes.

9170. When you return from your voyage do you generally go straight home or do you take your wages at Lerwick?-I take my wages at Lerwick.

9171. Before you come home?-Yes, if possible.

9172. Do you go up and settle before the shipping-master or superintendent?-Yes, I must do that.

9173. That did not use to be done at Lerwick?-It did not.

9174. Why has it been done lately?-I don't know.

9175. Was it not because it was not easy to get the Shetland men to wait for a settlement-they were so anxious to get home?- Perhaps it was. I and several others have to go to the North Isles and it is not every day we can get there. Staying one day in Lerwick might make us stay half a dozen, or perhaps a dozen, days; and therefore if we see a chance to get home whenever we land we are glad to take it.

9176. Then you go back when you find it convenient?-Yes.

9177. And you go before Mr. Gatherer the superintendent, and receive your wages in cash?-Yes; but many a time we have the chance of getting our money before we leave Lerwick if we could only wait another day.

9178. When you have an account standing in Messrs. Hay's books, how do you settle it?-We go back to the shop from the shipping office and pay the money.

[Page 222]

9179. How long has that been done?-I suppose for the last four or five years.

9180. Before that, you had a settlement at the office, and only got the balance in cash?-Yes.

9181. Is there any deduction made now from the cash you receive at the superintendent's office?-Nothing except the advance of our first month's wages, and the amount drawn under allotment tickets.

9182. But when you give an allotment ticket in the way you have mentioned, how do you do: do you get your half-pay handed over to you in cash?-Yes, if it is not drawn.

9183. Is it sometimes drawn?-No; my half-pay has not been drawn, so far as I recollect. [Produces four accounts of wages.]

9184. Who is William Manson, agent for master?-He is Messrs. Hay's clerk.

9185. The only deduction here is for stores in the ship, and your advance, and the fees?-That is all.

9186. Then in that year, 1870, you got the balance of £16, 3s. 6d. paid to you?-Yes.

9187. What was the amount of your account at Hay & Co.'s?-I don't remember in that year.

9188. Here [showing] is your account for 1871 when you had a balance of £19, 2s. to receive: do you remember the amount of your account, that year?-I do not.

9189. How much ready cash did you bring home with you when you had settled on 25th July?-I am not quite sure, but I think it was about £16.

9190. Then your account for the season would only be about £3?- That was all.

9191. Would that be the whole of the supplies you got for your family that year?-Yes; it was short voyage.

9192. Had you also a short and a very successful voyage last year?-Yes.

9193. You have not got your final payment of oil-money for 1871?-No.

9194. Have you got it for 1870?-Yes.

9195. Was that settled for before the superintendent, Mr. Gatherer?-Yes, it was paid at the custom-house. I think I got an account of wages for that too, but I could not say exactly. The oil on which the money was paid was 42 tons. The first payment of oil-money was upon 150 tons, making 192 altogether.

9196. Was the whole of that paid at the custom house?-Yes.

9197. Are you quite sure about that?-I am sure enough.

9198. And are you sure you got an account of the second payment of oil-money, although you have not got it now?-I am not sure about that. I think I got an account of wages for that too but I cannot say.

9199. How did you manage to keep the accounts of wages you have produced, when you did not keep the account for the last payment of oil-money?-Because I got these accounts of wages when I was going home, but at the time when I got the account for the last payment I was going away.

9200. Is your last payment of oil-money generally made to you when you are shipping in the following year?-I never get it until I am going away next year, and therefore it is easy to see how I may have lost the papers which I got then.

9201. Have you any accounts running with Messrs. Hay between the end of one whaling voyage and the beginning of another?- Very often I have. If I require anything I send to Messrs. Hay for it, or to any other man in Lerwick.

9202. Do you also get advances of cash from them when you want them?-Yes.

9203. Do you generally settle with Messrs. Hay at the time when you are engaged for the next year's voyage?-No. I settle with them at the time when I get paid.

9204. But you don't get your second payment of oil-money until you are going away for a new voyage?-I get it whenever it comes; but I told you that last year I did not get it until I was going away.

9205. Did that never happen before?-It has happened before.

9206. You have produced a receipt granted by you to Mr. Leask for £1, 5s. 3d. in 1867: how does that receipt happen to be in your possession?-That was a short voyage, only six weeks, in the 'Polynia' of Dundee and there were no half-pay tickets. I got an advance from him, and when I paid the money again at the end of the voyage the receipt was handed back to me.

9207. Was that advance given to you in cash?-No, I got my first month's advance in cash, and then I got that advance in goods.

9208. Was that for your own outfit, or for your family?-I think it was for my own outfit.

9209. Have you got payments of that kind frequently from the agents who have engaged you?-No; that was the only one.

9210. Did you get your first month's advance in addition to this?- Yes.

9211. Did you get it in cash or in goods?-I got it in a line to be cashed a day or two after we sailed. I gave the line to Mr. Leask's man, and got the principal part of it in money. Then they drew the money from the shipowner after I left.

9212. You took your first month's advance partly in money and partly in goods?-Yes, I think that was the way of it.

9213. And you got £1, 5s. 3d. in goods in addition to that?-Yes.

9214. Why did you want that amount of goods?-I have wanted three times that amount, according to circumstances. For one voyage I would require that amount, if I had not a good stock.

9215. Why did you not get the whole of your first month's advance in goods when you say you were requiring them?-Perhaps I was requiring money for some other purpose. I had perhaps to send part of it home.

9216. Why did you not take the whole of your month's advance in goods, and then get that advance in cash?-Perhaps I got more than that in cash. That advance was only 25s., and I had £2, 10s. per month.

9217. Did you get the whole payment of your wages for that voyage before you left?-Yes, except the second payment of oil-money. That second payment is made after the oil is boiled. There is a calculation made when we come home with regard to the whole amount of oil that is in the ship, and when we arrive we are paid a proportion of that. Then, when the oil is boiled; they see what it actually amounts to and we are paid the balance of our oil-money.

9218. Then on this voyage in 1867, which you made for Mr. Leask, you were advanced at sailing the whole amount of your wages and the first payment your oil-money?-Yes.

9219. And all that you had to get afterwards was your last payment of oil-money?-Yes.

9220. You got the whole of the amount in cash or goods?-Yes.

9221. But mostly in goods?-I could not say that it was mostly in goods, because, except the £1, 5s. 3d. and perhaps 10s. of my first month's advance I do not think I got more goods from them. I am not sure; about that; but I cannot say that I got more.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.

9222. You hold some land now from Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe?- Yes.

9223. Do you fish for Mr. Henderson?-No; I fish for Mr. Adie at the Out Skerries.

9224. Were you formerly a tenant on the Lunna estate?-Yes. I left it seven years ago because Sheriff Bell's tenantry there were handed over to Mr. Robertson, and were bound to fish for him. He and I had disputed at one time, and I was not very well satisfied about fishing for him. I was paying my land rent to the Sheriff, and I thought that when a man was [Page 223] paying his land rent he ought to have freedom to fish to the best advantage for himself that he could.

9225. Where did you engage to fish that season?-At the Skerries, to Mr. Adie.

9226. You thought you could make a better thing of it by fishing for Mr. Adie, and you went to him?-Yes.

9227. What happened in consequence of that?-Nothing happened, except that I must either be bound to fish for Mr. Robertson or leave the property.

9228. Were you told that you must leave the property?-Yes; the Sheriff himself told me that.

9229. Was Mr. Robertson his factor or his tacksman?-His tacksman.

9230. To whom did you pay your rent at Lunna?-To Mr. Robertson when he came to be tacksman, but the Sheriff before that.

9231. Who first told you that you were to leave your ground at Lunna?-The Sheriff himself.

9232. When was that?-The year before I left. That was nine years ago.

9233. Was that when you had first engaged with Mr. Adie?-No. I fished for two years for Mr. Robertson after that, after I removed to Yell.

9234. Then why did you leave Lunna? I thought you told me it was because you engaged with Mr. Adie that you were turned out of your ground there?-No; it was not because I engaged with Mr. Adie. It was because I would not fish for Mr. Robertson.

9235. Why did you fish for Mr. Robertson for two years after that, although you were not bound?-We were fishing then at our own freedom.

9236. Were you asked to sign any obligation to fish for Mr. Robertson?-No.

9237. How did you intimate that you were not going to be bound to fish for him? Had you a conversation with Mr. Bell on the subject?-Yes. At the time when Mr. Bell's tenants were handed over to Mr. Robertson, I was in the merchant service; but they made a statement then that the tenants were to be bound to fish for him.

9238. Who made the statement?-Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson made it after I came home. For the last ten years I have been at the ling fishing. The first winter I came home I caught some cod, small and big, and I salted them, and went down to Lerwick and sold them to Messrs. Hay. Mr. Robertson got word of that, and got an account from Messrs. Hay of the cod that I had sold. He handed that to the Sheriff, who came to Lunnasting; and I was called up and found fault with for not selling the fish to Mr. Robertson as tacksman. He asked me my reason for that; and I said that I had signed no agreement to fish for him; that I was due him nothing; and that I did not see why I could not sell my fish to any man I liked. Bell said very little to that; but he gave me to understand that after that I was either to leave the property, or to pay £1 of a fine if I sold my fish to any other person.

9239. Was that a written notice?-Yes.

9240. Have you got it now?-No, I have lost it.

9241. Did you pay the fine?-Yes.

9242. Did you not try to get off with it?-No.

9243. Did you think you were legally bound to pay it?-No; and that was the reason why I would not stay upon his property. If I could have got a 'downsitting' handy that suited me at the time, I would not have paid it, because I did not think it right.

9244. Did you fish for Mr. Robertson after that?-Yes, for two years.

9245. How did you happen to fish for him?-We just made a kind of agreement with him, first for two years; but still we were not satisfied, and as we did not wish to be bound to fish for him, we stopped.

9246. Did anything more pass between you and Mr. Robertson or Mr. Bell, about leaving the ground or about being bound to fish?- No.

9247. Then how did you come at last to leave Lunna? Did you give them notice that you were going, or did they give you notice to quit?-I was on the look-out after that for some other place, because I was determined, after paying that £1, which I was not due to shift to a convenient place at the first opportunity.

9248. You got a place at Burravoe; and since then have you been at liberty to fish for any person you pleased?-Yes.

9249. Do you get your supplies at Mr. Adie's store at Skerries?- Yes; our sea stock, and all that we require during the fishing season

9250. When you are at home, where do you get your supplies?- Sometimes from Lerwick, and sometimes we get something from Mr. Adie when we settle.

9251. Do you bring home supplies with you from Skerries?-No, we never settle at Skerries; we settle at Voe in Mr. Adie's office.

9252. Have you an account at Voe as well as at Skerries?-Yes. Our Skerries account for the fishing season is always handed over to Voe, and it is all settled there.

9253. Do you sometimes bring a large supply of provisions home from Voe?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. When we think we can make a better of it, we will send to Lerwick for them.

9254. Have you not to bring them a good bit by land when you get them from Voe?-Yes.

9255. Why do you take the trouble to carry your supplies so far as that?-We have no particular reason for it, only we are there at any rate, and we can get them there as good a bargain as we can get them in Lerwick and nearer us, and it saves us the freight.

9256. How often do you go to Voe in the course the year?-Once a year.

9257. When you go there to settle, are you asked to take some goods home with you?-Not at all, unless we require them ourselves.

9258. Of course you are not obliged to do it unless you like; but don't they ask you whether you want any goods?-Yes, they will do that. Sometimes Mr. Adie's shop people will ask if we are requiring anything.

9259. Is that before you settle or afterwards?-It is generally after we have settled.

9260. Does that supply go into the next year's account?-If we are requiring the cash we have got, either for paying the land-master or any other purpose, they will let the goods stand until next account.

9261. But sometimes you got goods before settlement, and they went into the past year's account if you did not want the cash?- No. Since we fished for Mr. Adie, there were no goods we got at that time which went into the past year's account. They always went into the rising year's account, unless they were paid for in cash.

9262. Sometimes you paid them in cash?-Yes.

9263. And in that case they would not enter any account?-No. I generally pay all my goods with cash, so far as I can.

9264. Do you find them cheaper when they are paid for in that way?-Yes.

9265. And that is what you do generally when you go to Lerwick?-Yes.

9266. Have you generally had a balance to get from Mr. Adie at the end of the year since you fished for him?-Yes, always.

9267. Could you get the same goods that you get at Voe as cheap nearer home, and as good?-I cannot say.

9268. Is there any difference in quality between Mr. Adie's goods and those you get at Burravoe or at Lerwick?-I cannot say that there is. There is often a great difference in the quality of goods, even although they are sold at one price, and as being the same quality.

9269. Where have you found that?-I have bought tea on different occasions at one place, and at the same price, and have found differences in the quality. I don't think that was due so much to the people selling it, as to the chest decaying. I have sometimes found it good and sometimes bad in every place I have had it from.

9270. Do you take goods from Mr. Henderson's shop at Burravoe?-I have had very few goods from him. I never had any meal or tea from him. All I have got has been a few nails or anything I required for my boats.

[Page 224]

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ARTHUR ANDERSON, examined.

9271. You are a fisherman at Burravoe, on Mr. M'Queen's property?-I am.

9272. Were you formerly a tenant and fisherman at Lunna?-Yes. I was not very long a tenant, but I was a fisherman. I left it 7 years ago at Martinmas, at the same time as Johnston.

9273. Had you been bound there to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I did fish for him; but while I was a young man, and unmarried, they could not compel me.

9274. Had you some land there afterwards?-Yes. I had some for two years before I left.

9275. Were you told then that you were bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes. The Sheriff told me that at the same time that he told Johnston.

9276. Were you both together at the time?-No.

9277. Had you both been sent for at the same time?-There was a meeting in a place near Lunna, and the whole tenantry were told that they were to be under one control, and to fish for Mr. Robertson. I think that meeting was held in the schoolroom. I think both Sheriff Bell and Mr. Robertson were present.

9278. Did Mr. Bell tell you that he expected you all to fish for Mr. Robertson?-Yes.

9279. What else did he say?-I was not very old then, and I don't remember.

9280. Why did you leave Lunna?-I was in a double family, and I thought the place I was in was too small for the whole of us; therefore I thought I would try to look out for some place in which to live.

9281. You did not leave it because you wanted your freedom?- Not altogether.

9282. Had you been fined for selling your fish anywhere else?- No.

9283. Do you know any other man in Lunna who was fined for that except Johnston?-I don't remember of any.

9284. Who do you fish for now?-For Mr. Adie, the same as Johnston does.

9285. Do you deal in the same way as he described?-Yes.

9286. How do you get your supplies, for your family?-Sometimes Mr. Adie will send us meal for our families from Aberdeen or from Leith, and we will pay the freight. It is not easy for him to send it to us from his place at Voe, but he will send it from these other places if we ask him.

9287. Do these supplies go to your account?-Yes.

9288. Do you ever get supplies anywhere else?-Sometimes in Skerries, where we fish.

9289. These go into the same account, and are settled for at Voe?-Yes.

9290. Do you bring goods from Voe at settling time when you want them?-We always bring something.

9291. Are you asked if you want goods when you go there to settle?-Yes; they will ask us if we desire anything.

9292. But you need not take them unless you like?-No.

9293. Do you get any goods at Burravoe?-Not very much. We don't run very large accounts there.

9294. Mr. Henderson's shop is not very far from where you live?-It is not very far.

9295. Would it not be handier for you to get your goods there?- We don't run very large accounts with him. I might get my goods from him if I was fishing for him, but when I am not putting any fish or any produce his way I don't ask anything.

9296. Could you not get the money for your fish, and buy your goods where it was most convenient for you?-We might.

9297. Did you never think of doing that?-No.

9298. Why?-I don't know.

9299. Do you think Mr. Henderson will charge higher prices from those who do not fish for him?-I cannot say.

9300. You never were afraid of that?-No.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT ROBERTSON, examined.

9301. You are a fisherman and tenant at Hamnavoe on Mr. M'Queen's property?-I am.

9302. You are an elder of the Established Church in South Yell parish?-Yes.

9303. How long have you been at Hamnavoe?-All my life. I am 56 years of age, and I was born on the property.

9304. Were you formerly bound to fish to the tacksman on the property?-No; I have had liberty all my time to fish for any one I liked, except for three years, when my landlord, the late Mr. Robert Bruce, required us to fish for him. He succeeded to the property about 1853, and it was in 1857 or 1858 that he required our services.

9305. You have been a skipper for a number of years?-For two years, but not for the last two years. I was two years at the whale fishing in 1868 and 1869. In 1868 I engaged with Messrs. Hay, and in 1869 I engaged with Mr. George Reid Tait. I got my first month's advance laid down at the custom-house, and when I came back I got the rest at the custom-house. If I was due a small thing to the agent I went to him and paid it.

9306. Did you get an outfit?-Only a small thing. I had some things myself, and it was only a few things that I required from the agents. Anything that I required for my family I got from Robertson & Co. I have had an account with them for a long time. I have had as much as £7, 3s. from them in a year.

9307. Why did you deal with them?-I found them to be good men. They always try to advance people as far as they can, and especially people who strive to pay them back again.

9308. Have you ever fished in the ling fishing?-Yes; I have been there for the last two years. The year before last I fished for Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, and last year I fished for William Jack Williamson at Ulsta.

9309. Did you run accounts with them?-Very little.

9310. Was that because you dealt with R. & C. Robertson?-Yes.

9311. Do most of the men deal with the merchants they fish for?- They do, because they have no money of their own, and they require their fishing to pay for what they get.

9312. Do they get their out-takes on credit?-Yes, until the fishing is done, and then they clear it off. I had no dealings with these two merchants except for my living in the summer time-meal and tea and sugar.

9313. Were these for your company account?-Yes.

9314. Do you think you get your supplies cheaper from R. & C. Robertson than you would get them from the merchants you fish for?-I think so.

9315. And better, or at least as good?-Yes. If I send to Messrs. Robertson for a sack of meal, I get it at the Lerwick price, with the addition of the freight, but when the meal comes to a merchant in the North Isles, he has to take a little profit on it besides.

9316. Are any of the merchants here supplied with their meal from R. & C. Robertson?-I cannot say.

9317. Because if they are not they might possibly get their supplies from the south, and land them here cheap as Messrs. Robertson can land them at Lerwick?-They might. I believe Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, fetches his meal from the south occasionally.

9318. And as easily as the Robertsons can fetch it to Lerwick?- Yes; he has just the freight between Lerwick and Burravoe to pay.

9319. But he might bring it by a sailing vessel from Aberdeen?- He might, but it always comes by the steamer.

9320. Do you know as a fact that the price at Lerwick is less than the price you would be charged meal at Burravoe?-It is a little less.

9321. Do you also find that the quality of the meal better there?- It is sometimes as good in Lerwick at a price of 2s., or 2s. 6d., or 3s. cheaper at Burravoe than it is in the North Isles. I have bought flour lately from [Page 225] Messrs. Robertson at 16s. or 18s. a boll, and have bought it as low as 14s. 6d.

9322. Have you bought any meal during the last year?-No; I did not require it.

9323. But before that you found a difference of 2s. on the flour, and 3s. or 4s. on the sack of meal?-Yes.

9324. Have you bought provisions or supplies from Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, lately?-Not for a long time. Perhaps I might buy a 1/4 lb. of tea or something like that, if I was at his door; but I paid for it then, and there was no account.

9325. You say you have been quite free to fish for any one you pleased except during three years: did Mr. M'Queen ever forbid you to fish for Mr. Henderson?-Once. I think that was about three years ago; but he (Mr. M'Queen) came to see that that would not do and it was never more spoken of.

9326. Did you fish that year for Mr. Henderson?-No. I went to Greenland; but in the following year I fished for him.

9327. Did you go to Greenland because Mr. M'Queen asked you to do so?-It was almost because of him telling me not to fish for Mr. Henderson.

9328. But you did not like to be interfered with?-No. If I paid my rent to my landlord at the end of the season, I liked to be at liberty to go where I pleased. With regard to the winter fishing, it does not matter much, because they will pay ready money for it whenever we bring in the fish.

9329. Don't you think it would be better if the people here were paid ready money for everything, instead of running such long accounts, and settling only once year?-It might, but I don't know how things would go then. If we were to pay ready money for everything that we got from the merchants, it might not come to answer very well.

9330. Why is that?-Because if I were taking anything to a merchant to sell, such as hosiery, and asking ready money for it, I would not get so much as if I were to let the price lie in his hands for some time.

9331. But don't you think the merchant would sell his goods cheaper to you if you were paying him in ready money?-I believe he would do that.

9332. Don't you think the people would manage their affairs better if they had the money in their own hands?-I think so; because if a man does a day's work, and is not paid for it until the end of five or six months, he is not likely to do so well with it as if the money was paid down to him at once and he could go where he liked with it, to make the best bargain for himself in buying things.

9333. Is it not a great trouble to keep in mind all the things that you have got to your credit-a day's work now, and your fish again, and a beast, perhaps which you have sold, and then to recollect all the outtakes you have had besides?-Yes. I have sold few beasts now for several years, but I always got the money paid down to me on the day when I sold them.

9334. You think that is handier than getting them put down into an account?-Yes.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK POLE, examined.

9335. Are you a partner of the firm of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I am not a partner.

9336. Are you the manager at Greenbank?-Yes.

9337. You were cited to bring some books?-I was and I have brought the only book which can give any information as to our intromissions with fishermen. Our principal books are kept at Mossbank, because that is the head-quarters of the firm.

9338. What books do you keep at Greenbank?-We only keep a ledger into which the account of each fisherman who has one is entered.

9339. Are there some fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank who do not open accounts?-I don't know if there are any; there may be one or two.

9340. In that account at Greenbank do you enter on the one side all the out-takes of the fishermen, and on the other the sums which are due to them for fish or any other matters?-No. The ledger I have with me shows merely the shop accounts of the fishermen. The ledger you refer to is kept at Mossbank.

9341. Are all the balances made at Mossbank?-Yes.

9342. Do the men go there for settlement?-No, they settle at Greenbank; but my brother settles with them, and he brings the book over with him and takes it back with him when he goes to Mossbank again.

9343. What quantity of fish did you sell from Greenbank last year?-About 54 tons of dry fish.

9344. What number of boats had you engaged to produce that quantity?-We had 14 boats altogether. One boat had three men fishing in it, another had four, and the rest had six apiece.

9345. Then the only book you have at Greenbank the ledger containing the accounts for shop goods furnished to your men?- That is the only book we keep there.

9346. Is there a woman's book besides?-No; we don't keep a woman's book at Greenbank.

9347. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes, we do; and we enter it in the kelp-book by itself.

9348. Is not that a sort of woman's book?-No.

9349. Is it not women mostly whom you employ at that?-It is women mostly, indeed altogether, who are employed in making the kelp at Greenbank.

9350. What quantity of kelp did you sell last year?-I think only about nine tons.

9351. What price do you allow to women for kelp?-We have two prices for kelp: 4s. in goods, and 3s. 6d. in cash.

9352. Is that a lower price than on the mainland?-I am not aware that it is, but I cannot speak as to that.

9353. Then, of course, you have a fish-book?-It is kept at Mossbank.

9354. How do your factors mark down the fish at landing?-There is a book kept at Gloup, which is the station in summer, and the factor marks the fish there. Then, as soon as the season is over, the amount is added up and sent to Mossbank to be entered in the fish-book.

9355. It is merely the amount of fish that is added up in the book at Gloup?-Yes.

9356. And the balance is made in a separate book at Mossbank?- Yes; in a ledger by itself, which is kept there.

9357. In that book the total goods supplied at Greenbank are entered in a slump sum?-Yes. The fishermen keep their shop account in one part of our business premises, and their slump account, as it were, in another part.

9358. That is to say, that at Greenbank they check their shop account?-Yes.

9359. Do they come to check it generally themselves, or do they have pass-books?-Some of them get pass-books, and others do not.

9360. If they have no pass-book, how do they check it?-I suppose they check it from their own memory.

9361. Do they come for that purpose before settling time?-No; they generally come about settling time.

9362. Do they not settle at Mossbank?-No; we settle with all our Greenbank fishermen at Greenbank.

9363. Are your books brought from Mossbank for that purpose?- Yes. As I said before, the principal of our business brings them along with him when he comes to settle with the men, and he takes them back with him when he goes back.

9364. Is it at that time that the totals of the shop accounts at Greenbank are entered into the principal ledger?-Yes; and the fisherman gets a note of the amount of his account from me. He settles with me for that, and takes the note in to my brother, who settles the whole account.

9365. Have you also a day-book at Greenbank?-Yes.

[Page 226]

9366. Is that for cash transactions, or do the whole of your transactions first pass into it before being carried into the ledger?-Almost all our transactions pass through it.

9367. What transactions do not pass through it?-If I happened to be posting my ledger at the time when a person was getting anything to be marked down, I might mark it straight into the ledger without putting it through the day-book, in order to save the trouble of posting.

9368. Do most of the fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank and Gloup reside within a short distance of these places?-No; they are scattered over the parish of North Yell, and a few of them are in this parish.

9369. Your brother, when examined at Brae, mentioned the properties which belonged to the members of the firm, and of which he was tacksman, but I forget whether he mentioned if there were any properties of which members of the firm are tacksmen: are there any such?-My brother is tacksman of Mr. Walker's property in North Yell, and Pole, Hoseason, Co. are factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell, also. I think the number of tenants on Mr. Walker's estate might be fourteen, and the number on George Hoseason's may be nine or ten.

9370. Are these men bound to fish to you by the terms on which they hold their land?-They are not bound by any written or special engagement, but it is understood that they will fish to us, and most of them do so.

9371. Are they bound to fish for you in the Faroe fishing?-No; we have no Faroe fishing in connection with Greenbank at all.

9372. But you have at Mossbank?-Yes.

9373. If one of these men were to go to the Faroe fishing, would you consider yourself entitled to the first offer of his services in one of your smacks?-We would.

9374. Then there is an understanding to that effect?-It is understood that these men will fish to us if we require them.

9375. In point of fact, do any men on these properties in North Yell engage for the Faroe fishing with any other merchants?- There are very few, if who go from North Yell to the Faroe fishing now. It is principally young men who go there. I cannot at this moment recollect any one who goes to Faroe from the north district.

9376. The day-book and ledger and fish-book are, I understand, the only books which are used at Greenbank and Gloup?-At Gloup we have a sort of wastebook, in which any goods are entered which are bought by anybody during the season when we have goods there.

9377. But that is merely for the purpose of being carried into the permanent ledger at Greenbank or at Mossbank?-At Greenbank. These accounts, of course, are settled for at Gloup before the men leave there.

9378. Are these company accounts?-Some are company accounts and some are private accounts.

9379. Can a man have his private supplies at Gloup while he is residing there as well as his company supplies?-Yes.

9380. Have you a publican's licence for the premises at Greenbank?-No; we have a certificate for getting a licence if we wish to take it out, but we have not taken it out for years. I don't care for selling liquor, and therefore I do not take it out.

9381. How do the men get supplies of that kind: is there a public-house in the district?-No.

9382. Therefore they must buy in a stock of spirits when they want them?-I suppose so; but they very temperate class altogether. I don't think they use much liquor.

9383. Do they not require it at the station and when they are going to fish?-At the station we allowed to keep a small quantity of liquor, with which to supply our fishermen during the season.

9384. Is that under the Excise regulations?-I understand it is. It is my brother who takes charge of these matters; but I understand the Excise permit us to have a small quantity, for the purpose of supplying our fishermen only.

9385. Are your supplies of provisions and soft goods at Greenbank furnished from Mossbank, or do you get them direct from the wholesale merchants?-Generally we get them direct from the wholesale merchants.

9386. Are they landed in Yell?-Yes.

9387. But I suppose they are invoiced to the firm at Mossbank?- Yes.

9388. From whom do you get your principal supplies of meal and flour?-I should prefer to give the names privately. [Writes the names of two firms.]

9389. I see in your ledger the account of Lawrence Danielson, Houlland: is that a fisherman?-Yes.

9390. I observe that cash is sometimes entered in his account: does he come to you when he wants a small advance of cash for any immediate need?-Yes.

9391. Are applications of that kind common, or does a man generally get on without cash until settlement?-Occasionally a man may require a little advance in cash, but, as a general rule, any cash which we give out is at the time when the fishermen settle. After man has settled his account, he perhaps does not have as much money as he requires, and he may wish small advance, and it is generally given to him. He may also get a trifle occasionally at other times in the season, but it is generally about that time that the bulk of advances in cash are made.

9392. Do you square off your accounts in the ledger after settlement?-No; before the settlement.

9393. Then the entry here on November 27th, 'By Mossbank ledger, so much,' means what?-It means that the account there was transferred to the Mossbank ledger.

9394. And that indicates the amount which the man was entitled to receive in cash, unless there was something standing against him in the Mossbank ledger as well?-Certainly; there might be a balance against him there.

9395. 'By amount of Gloup account, £1, 13s: 11d.:' was that entirely for his supplies at Gloup during the fishing season?-That was for the amount of his private account at Gloup; and that account, as I have said, is settled between him and our factor at Gloup, and is entered here.

9396. I see entries of meal, 1s. 5d. and 5s. 8d.: what quantity of meal would that be which is charged 5s. 8d.?-It would be a lispund, or four pecks.

9397. What is the quantity charged 1s. 5d.?-One peck, or eight lbs.

9398. Was that the selling price of your meal last summer?-Yes, by the peck.

9399. Do you charge less when a larger quantity is taken?-Yes; we charge sometimes 1s. or 1s. 3d. and sometimes as much as 2s. less per boll. The price per boll would be somewhere about 25s. or 26s. when the lispund was at 5s. 8d.

9400. What did you sell meal at per boll last summer?-It is very rarely that I sell bolls at Greenbank. Generally when a quantity of that kind is required, we order it direct from the south, and it is charged to the men at Mossbank.

9401. Do you purchase hosiery at Greenbank?-We do very little in that way.

9402. I see one woman credited in the ledger with shawl: is that an exceptional transaction?-Yes, most exceptional transaction. We used to do a good deal in hosiery, but we found it was a very bad speculation, and so we gave it up. We were losing money by it every year: we would have been in the debtors' prison, I suppose, if we had continued to go on with that trade.

9403. Are the women's accounts for kelp kept in the same book?-Yes; if a woman is to be credited with kelp it is entered there.

9404. Do you purchase wool?-No; but we have some sheep: at least I had the management of some sheep this season, and I sold the wool for behoof of the party who owned the sheep.

[Page 227]

9405. When you employ people to work for you, are they paid at the time, or at the settlement?-We sometimes pay them at the time, and sometimes at settlement.

9406. Are people employed in curing fish always paid at settlement?-Not wholly. We have a class of hands who are paid by beach fees, and another class whom we employ as day labourers, and we pay these either daily, weekly, or monthly, or whenever they like.

9407. Or at settlement, if they have an account?-Not necessarily. Some of them may have an account, and yet be paid daily.

9408. I see in the ledger that one woman is credited on July 1st, 'By work in full, 7s. 7d.,' and the account is made up: that work, I suppose, only went into the account. What kind of work would it be?-It was dressing worsted.

9409. Then, on January 14, there is, 'By work, 3s. 2d.:' was that dressing worsted also?-So far as I recollect, it was.

9410. I see here a special entry, 'By dressing, 3s. 9d?'-That is the same thing only differently expressed. That woman dresses any little worsted we may buy.

9411. Was that hosiery goods?-No; it was the worsted itself, the yarn.

9412. Do you buy the yarn ready made, or do you give the wool out to be spun?-We buy it ready spun and dress it, and send it south.

9413. You don't get it made up?-We do not.

9414. But the dressing here is paid for on the same principle of accounting which you adopt in your transactions with the fishermen?-Just in the same way.

9415. And you just settle for it at the end of the year?-Not at the end of the year; just whenever the woman likes.

9416. I see that this balance has been made at March 31, and another balance is made in April, and another in July?-Yes.

9417. Are the sales of fish transacted by you at Greenbank, or through the firm at Mossbank?-Through the firm at Mossbank entirely.

9418. Are you generally acquainted with the transactions in that department?-No. I may happen to know occasionally about some things; but I don't know particularly, as a general rule.

9419. Do you know the price at which the fish were sold last year?-I have an idea about what it was, but I could not say the exact figure.

9420. Do you know to whom they were sold? Were any of them sent to Spain?-I am not aware that any were sent to Spain. I don't think there were any sent abroad at all. I think they were all sold in Scotland and Shetland.

9421. Who buys from you in Shetland?-Mr. Joseph Leask at Lerwick; he is a very large fishbuyer.

9422. Why do you not sell your fish direct to the south?-I suppose we find it to be an advantage to sell to him. The Greenbank fish were all sold to him last year, and I believe some were sold from Mossbank too, but I could not say the exact amount.

9423. Can you explain how the current price of the season is ascertained, according to which you settle with your fishermen?- I cannot explain it exactly; but I believe some of the curers may correspond with one another about what they consider to be a fair price.

9424. Did you sell last year at the same price as your neighbours, Spence & Co.?-I don't know.

9425. If there is a difference in the price obtained by two or three neighbouring firms for their fish, do you strike an average in order to deal with your fishermen, or how is it that the fishermen are settled with?-I am not aware that there is any average struck. I think, as a general rule, the fishermen are paid to the full extent of the highest price realized by the large curers.

9426. Suppose you were selling 10s. or £1 a ton cheaper than your nearest neighbours, in consequence perhaps of having to sell earlier, or when the market was in a depressed state?-Such it thing occurs sometimes.

9427. Would you in that case settle with your fishermen according to the price obtained by the other party?-Certainly.

9428. Is that an invariable rule?-In my experience it has been the rule.

9429. Is that because the fishermen are sure to find out who got the highest price and would be dissatisfied, or is it part of the understanding that it is the highest current price according to which they are to be paid?-I believe the fishermen generally understand that they are to be paid according to the highest price.

9430. Then if a merchant is specially fortunate and gets a price much higher than the ordinary prices of the year, does that regulate the whole prices throughout Shetland so far as the fishermen are concerned?-I should say not; but I think that is a thing that very rarely happens. I think the principal curers, so far as I know, get much about the same price for their fish. There may be a slight variation here and there, but it small.

9431. They will get pretty much the same, I fancy, if they sell in Shetland to one gentleman or two?-Yes; but I am not aware that they all do that.

9432. Do you ever sell any fish for exportation to Spain?-I cannot say that we have ever sold any for that purpose. No doubt some of the fish we have sold may have gone to Spain indirectly.

9433. But you have not sent them there on your own account?- No.

9434. I presume the bulk of the transactions at Greenbank are credit transactions, and enter the ledger?-No. We do a great deal in cash payments.

9435. Is that with fishermen?-In some cases with our own fishermen, and in other cases with other people. We do a considerable business across the counter for ready money. I should say that in our shop business we sell as much goods for cash and butter and eggs, and so forth, as we do for fish.

9436. Are these cash transactions, as they may be called, speaking generally, with the same parties, or with different parties from those whose names appear in the book as having got goods which are set against their fish?-In some cases they would be with the same parties, and in other cases with others. For example, it is generally women that we buy yarn from, and it is very often women who bring us eggs and butter.

9437. Do you settle the whole of these transactions at the time?- Yes, as a general rule.

9438. But these women may have an account which enters the women's book?-We keep no women's book.

9439. Then when a woman does deal with you that way, she settles her transactions at once?-Generally at once.

9440. When you sell a quarter lb. of tea, or a lispund of meal, or a bit of cotton over the counter in a ready money transaction, is the same price charged as if it were entering the book?-Exactly the same, in all cases.

9441. Does it not follow from that that your profit upon the transactions which enter the book and are settled for at the end of the year is much less than what you make upon the cash transactions?-If we were to make no bad debts, it would not be much less. It would be much the same.

9442. Would it not be less in this way, that you might turn your money over twice before these accounts were settled, and you would either have the interest for the year or you might make another profit?-True; but the rate of interest is so exceedingly small at present, that the money is worth scarcely anything at all.

9443. I suppose it is a consideration in that matter that if you lose the interest upon the money that is invested in goods, you gain by the interest upon the money that is not paid to the men until the end of the season?-There is not much gain there, because we have often to pay the fishermen their money some months before we receive it.

9444. When are your fish sales made?-Towards the end of September or beginning of October, and they are generally made on a three months bill.

9445. That is on a bill payable in January, and the [Page 228] men are settled with in December?-In the end of November or 1st of December.

9446. So that the men are paid a month before you receive the proceeds of your fish sales?-Yes, a month or two.

9447. In that way, therefore you do not stand upon an equality with the men in the matter of interest, but on all these credit sales of goods you are losing interest?-Looking at it in that way, that would be so.

9448. I should have thought it not unreasonable that you should have a discount for these cash payments: why have you not?-I believe the reason is, that there is a great difficulty in having two prices for your goods-I mean honestly.

9449. You think the people would complain?-Not only would the people complain, but I am afraid your own conscience would cry out sometimes.

9450. Why should your conscience cry out if you are really equalizing the two classes of buyers?-The buyer who does not pay until November has the advantage of having his money in hand, and of getting an advance made to him on credit; whereas the buyer who pays you in March or in April for the same goods which the other man does not pay for until November, gives you his money six or eight or ten months sooner, and you have the advantage of having the money in your pocket, and you could make of it, as the case may be: is not that so?-Yes. A discount might be taken off if we could decide upon a certain percentage to take off for cash; but I believe the reason we have never done anything in that way is, that if you once begin to make an alteration, there is a great difficulty in fixing your prices, and a difficulty in sticking to an exact rate. Perhaps you will allow me to illustrate what I mean. Suppose I go into a shop and ask for a cloth jacket, and the jacket is brought down. I am well acquainted with the price of these goods, but I have plenty of impudence, and I beat down the price until the seller consents to give me the jacket at 3s. less than he asked at first. Then my brother, who is a quiet man, goes in and asks for jacket exactly the same. Perhaps he gets five per cent. taken off, which would be 1s. 6d., and he pays cash for it. That would be 1s. 6d. of an advantage to me, and I consider that it would be unfair and dishonest to him.

9451. But you get out of that difficulty by raising the price a little to everybody?-We do not. We just price our goods at what we consider to be a living profit, and we do not sell them at less than that to anybody.

9452. Are not your prices fixed, in the first instance, at such a figure as you calculate would cover the risk of bad debts upon your credit transactions, and also the loss of interest upon the money?-I cannot say that they are. We try to make as few bad debts as possible, and I cannot say that the prices are fixed with a view to that at all.

9453. Are the goods invoiced to you at Greenbank from Mossbank?-They are all invoiced from Mossbank.

9454. At the cost price, or at the price at which you are to sell them?-At the retail price.

9455. Have you known many cases of fishermen leaving your employment and going to other merchants?-No; as a general rule, fishermen continue in our employment for a very long time. No doubt there exceptions.

9456. I suppose there is a difficulty sometimes in man changing because of its disarranging the boat's crew?-In some cases there is.

9457. Do you know of any cases in which single men have come to you from other employers within the last half-dozen years?-I cannot speak for the last half-dozen years. I can only speak particularly for two years.

9458. Within that time have you got many men coming to you from other merchants?-There have been a few.

9459. Have these men generally been clear of debt to their former employers when they came to you?-So far as I know, they have.

9460. They have not asked you to undertake, their debts, or to advance them money with which to pay their debts to their former employers?-No. I have no case of that kind in my mind at present.

9461. Does any arrangement exist between you and any other fish-merchant, to the effect that a man leaving the one merchant and seeking employment with the other shall have his debt cleared off by the new employer?-There is no such arrangement between us and any other employer.

9462. Do you know of any case in which that has been done?-I cannot say that I do. Such a thing might have occurred, but there is no case of that sort which has come within my own knowledge.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, THOMAS WILLIAMSON, examined.

9463. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Seafield?-I am. I have been there for a short time. I commenced with the fishing in 1871, and I commenced for myself there as a merchant on 20th May 1870.

9464. Where had you been before?-I was shopman for one year before to the man who had the place previously-Magnus Mouat.

9465. Before that where had you been?-In 1867 and 1868 I was in Robert Mouat's shop at Coningsburgh as his shopman, but he took charge of the shop chiefly himself. I was not quite two years there.

9466. I understand the men in that neighbourhood were under an obligation to fish to Mouat, who was the tacksman of the property?-I cannot say about that. I did not know anything about their private matters.

9467. Do you mean to say that you were shopman to Mouat for two years and did not know that?-I did not know their private affairs, whether they were bound or not. I saw the men fishing, but I could not say whether they were under an obligation to fish for him more than for any other one.

9468. Did you not know of any cases in which men were threatened or ejected for not fishing for him, or for selling their fish to other merchants?-I was not aware of that at the time I was there.

9469. Were the men's accounts with Mouat settled annually in the same way as they are in other places in Shetland?-Yes, during the time I was there.

9470. Had you anything to do with settling these accounts?-No; he settled with the men himself.

9471. Did you keep the books in which the goods taken from the shop were entered?-Yes; the daybook.

9472. Do you remember anything about the prices charged there?-They varied, just as they did at other places.

9473. Were you aware at the time that the prices charged in Mouat's shop were much higher than those at other places?- I cannot say that they were higher for a country shop.

9474. Were they dearer than are charged in this neighbourhood now?-I cannot say that they were for the groceries; but indeed they would require to have been dearer, because he had to take his goods overland at a heavy expense from Lerwick. It was pretty expensive keeping a horse and cart for that purpose, and taking his goods down on a winter day. When he did not do that, he had either to employ a sloop for himself, or a big six-oared boat.

9475. But you have to do that in many places in Shetland?-They do that throughout the mainland, in Quendale and other places.

9476. Did the men about Coningsburgh ever complain to you of the quality of the goods sold in Mouat's store?-Of course I might have heard a man complain, just as parties will do when buying goods. Some customers will always complain. They may perhaps despise the thing, and yet at the same time they like very well to take it, but they pretend not to want it in [Page 229] order to get it a little reduced in price. I don't think the goods were any dearer or any worse than in most country shops in Shetland, because they came from the south country, and from the same men from whom most country merchants in Shetland purchase.

9477. Did Mouat buy from a merchant in Aberdeen?-He got most of his soft goods from Mr. D. L. Shirras there.

9478. Where did he get his meal and flour?-Sometimes from Macduff in Banffshire, and sometimes from Tod Brothers, Stockbridge.

9479. Who was his merchant at Macduff?-I forget; I think it was Messrs. Laing. He had one cargo from them during the time I was there. I think Mr. Adie, Voe, had some in the vessel at the same time.

9480. Was the cargo landed at Coningsburgh?-Some of it, and some at other places, just as the party got orders for it.

9481. Did the cargo belong to Mouat, or was it a joint concern?-I cannot say.

9482. Where did he get his flour?-He did not get very much flour during the time I was there, except for house use.

9483. Where did he get his tea and groceries?-From Mackintosh & Co. Glasgow, and from Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen.

9484. Did you ever know of any of Mouat's men getting money at the settlement?-Yes; those who had it to get got it, the year I was there.

9485. Were they sometimes paid by receipts or lines?-I cannot say how they were paid. The men, as they came out of the place where they had been settling, spoke about being paid.

9486. But you don't know whether they got cash?-No; they might have got a cheque on the bank. I only saw the entry in the ledger, of cash being paid in full.

9487. Your department was merely to sell in the shop?-Yes; and I was oftener travelling. I travelled a good deal buying up stock for him.

9488. Where were your principal purchases of stock made?-In winter they were chiefly at the Walls Martinmas sale.

9489. Was that in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh?-No, it was in the west side of Shetland; but Mouat would perhaps buy a beast or two in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh as he had orders for them.

9490. How were these cattle settled for?-Those that I bought were paid in money at the time. I cannot tell how he paid for those he bought himself.

9491. Were these cattle sent out of the country?-Some of them were, and others were re-sold in the country.

9492. Do you really think that upon the whole the stock of goods in Mouat's shop was as fair in quality as is usual in Shetland?-I could not say any other. The goods might have been lying for some time, and I could not tell what strength was in them, but they looked very well. They just looked like any goods that you would see brought into a country shop.

9493. I understand you have taken Mrs. Budge's premises at Seafield for curing and salting your fish?-Yes. Of course we had an understanding when we took them, that we were to have the men on equal terms with what they would get from another, but there was no more agreement about it. There is scarcely any man who could keep the premises there and carry on business in them without the privilege of having the men to fish for him. It would hardly have been fair to have made them fish for me unless they were as well served as by fishing for another; but I told them that I did not want any of them to fish for me unless they came voluntarily.

9494. Do you mean that the premises are inconveniently situated for such a business?-Of course. They lie so far inland that we require to have a push like that.

9495. And in order to get men to deliver their fish there, it is necessary that they should be under some sort of obligation?- We thought that unless the men had something to do at the place, it would not be worth keeping it. Of course you cannot very easily force a business there, without a few men that you can depend upon.

9496. Do you mean to force a business in the way of fish-curing, or in the way of selling goods or provisions?-Of course it would require a man with more capital than I have to force a business so far inland.

9497. But which do you mean; the fish-curing business, or the general business?-I mean the general business.

9498. I suppose the drapery and provision business depends very much on the success of the fish-curing business?-Yes. There is nothing else to depend upon. There are no works or anything like that in the neighbourhood.

9499. Do the men who are employed by you in the fishing live near your shop?-Yes.

9500. But you say that for fish-curing this is not a very convenient place, because it is too far inland?-I say it is not convenient for driving a business, unless you have some means to depend upon in the fishing or such like. There are not many people round about who could purchase goods over the counter, so that the business cannot be carried on in that way.

9501. But do you suppose that in any part of Shetland a good business over the counter could be carried on unless there were fishermen employed by the merchants?-Yes. I know places in Shetland where they do carry on a good business over the counter without having fishermen. For instance, they could do so in Unst.

9502. Don't merchants who try to establish a business find it exceedingly difficult to get on in the neighbourhood of a large merchant who has a number of fishermen employed, unless they have fishermen of their own?-No doubt but then there are some places a good distance from these large fish-curers where they could drive a very good business over the counter. Of course they could not make a large business of it, because there is not a large business to be done in Shetland.

9503. But they could make something if they were far enough away from the large fish-curers?-Yes.

9504. Still at any place I suppose it is an advantage for a merchant to be a fish-curer?-I don't know as to that. I cannot say much for it this year. Last year was my first year at it, and I had two boats.

9505. Did you not make a good thing of your fishing last year?- They did very well in the way of fishing, but I lost a good few lines and I had to pay most in cash. I paid the men cash down, and when they do not take their goods in return we make very little by the fish.

9506. Did the men not run accounts with you as they would do with another fish-curer?-No doubt some of them did, but some of them did not.

9507. Had they all cash to receive at the end of the year?-Yes.

9508. Was there not one of them who was in debt to you at the settlement?-Not one. The lowest had about £6 to get.

9509. Then you would not make so much of them as some merchants do?-I don't know as to that. I don't expect that I would make anything.

9510. Did you not expect to drive a fair business at Seafield?- Hardly, upon that footing.

9511. Are you not satisfied with your first year's trial here?- Sometimes we must be doing, although we are not satisfied with everything that comes across us. Sometimes we must just endure it, and hope for better success in another year.

9512. How do you account for your shop business not being larger last year?-The men were in pretty good circumstances, and perhaps they found that they could get their things a little cheaper in Lerwick, and they ran accounts there. Of course I could not sell so cheap as they do in Lerwick, because I was buying most of my goods there. I got part of my goods from the south, and part from Mr. Leask.

9513. Did you hear Mr. Laurence Williamson's evidence?-Yes.

9514. Do you make the same bargain with your fishermen about boats and lines and other things as he described?-The captain of the boat got something extra from me.

[Page 230]

9515. But did you give as much off the boat hire as a premium to the men?-No; but of course it came to the same thing. I got £4 for the boat and lines. Laurence Williamson charged £6, and of course I charged £6 too, but I gave the lines free to the captain of the boat, and £1, 6s., which is equal to £2.

9516. Do any of the men in your experience buy their boats and lines?-They do in other places but not on this island, so far as I am aware.

9517. And that is always a debt against a boat's crew at starting?- Yes. In Dunrossness the crew buy their boat and lines, and I believe in Whalsay too.

9518. Have you engaged your boats for next year?-Of course it was understood when I bought my new boats last year, that the men would continue to fish for me; and this year they have not said anything against continuing to fish.

9519. Therefore you will have the same two boats' crews of Mrs. Budge's tenants?-I hope so.

9520. It was an understanding between you and Mr. Sievwright when you took the premises that these men were to fish for you?- Yes.

9521. Was that understanding put into writing?-No.

9522. Have you any lease of the premises?-No. I have them taken from year to year.

9523. But it was understood in conversation between you and Mr. Sievwright that the men should fish for you?-Yes, that the men should fish on the same terms to me as they would to another person; but still I don't want any of the men who do not come to me voluntarily.

9524. Still you had no objection to the landlord bidding them fish for you?-None whatever.

9525. Were you aware of the letter being written which has been produced to-day?-Yes. I did not see it before it was sent, but I saw it in the hands of the man who produced it.

9526. Did you know it was to be written?-No. I did not know whether Mr. Sievwright was to ask them or to write to them.

9527. But it was quite understood between you and Mr. Sievwright that there was such an arrangement?-Yes, of course I spoke to Mr. Sievwright about it.

9528. And your rent was fixed on that footing?-No; my rent was fixed before that matter was spoken of. I spoke to Mrs. Budge first about it, and she advised me to try it, and said she thought the men would have no objection to fish for me more than to any other party.

9529. Had the premises been unlet for some time?-Yes.

9530. Magnus Mouat had them for two years before you?-Yes.

9531. Had they been unlet before that?-Yes, they were never let before.

9532. Why did Mouat leave?-He did not do very much in the place. He is in Unst now.

9533. Would you pay the same rent for your premises if that understanding did not exist about the men fishing for you?-No, I would not keep them at all.

9534. Why?-Because I could have nothing to do in them. I would have nobody buying anything from me.

9535. And you would have no men to fish for you?-No.

9536. Is that because you cannot get free men to fish for you, or is it because they prefer to fish for the big fish-curers?-When the men are engaged to the big fish-curers, if I were to go and ask them to come and fish for me then I would require to give them a better bargain than they have with the merchants by whom they are employed now, and if I were to do that it would take away all the profit I would have on the fish, and I would have to work for nothing. Therefore I would be as well to want them.

9537. How do you fix the current price at the end of the year?- That is a thing I am hardly able to tell.

9538. How did you manage to ascertain it last year?-My bargain with the men was to give them the current price of the country, and accordingly I did so. I ascertained what the big fish-curers were giving, and I regulated my price by theirs.

9539. You did not settle until you ascertained what price they were getting?-No, I settled just at the general time.

9540. But after you had found out what the large fish-curers were getting?-Yes.

9541. Did you sell to Mr. Leask?-Yes.

9542. Have you any difficulty in getting men employed by the large fish-curers because they are bound to them too?-No, it is not exactly that; but I have not so much money as these fish-curers, and if the men make two or three small fishings, the curers can help them with money or goods, while I could not afford to do that.

9543. You have not the means of carrying them through?-Of course I have not. Men who have been long in business and who have plenty of capital can manage to do the thing in different ways; and small shops like mine need not try to fight against the great.

9544. It was only the balances you paid in cash this year?-Yes; but some of the men had £7 or £8 before settlement time came, and some had before they went to the fishing at all.

9545. Then their accounts at the shop would be rather small on the whole: what would you say was about the average?-They ran from 5s. to £9.

9546. Did they get that in goods?-They could take it either in cash or in goods. When they did not want to take the goods, they got cash if I had it; and if I did not have it at the time, they had just to wait until I could make some shift to get it for them.

9547. Do you buy hosiery?-Very little. If I can get a little good worsted-yarn, that is all I buy.

9548. Who do you sell the yarn to?-All I have done in that is a mere trifle, as I have not been long in the business; but perhaps I take a parcel to Lerwick, and hawk it through the shops, and get goods in exchange which I want for my own business.

9549. Is it understood that you are to take the price out in goods?-Yes. Of course I may meet with a private individual who may buy a few good cuts of worsted from me for cash.

9550. Is the worsted you get generally of good quality?-It is generally thick worsted, worth 2d. or 3d. a cut.

9551. That is not the very finest Shetland worsted?-No. There is some of it as high as 6d. a cut.

9552. Do the merchants re-sell the worsted at the same price or do they charge a profit upon it?-I cannot say much about that; only I know that all that worsted and hosiery is a bad spec. to meddle with. If it lies any time it gets spoiled, and it is very difficult to get a market even for the best quality of it in the south.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT GILBERTSON, examined.

9553. You are a fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell?-Yes.

9554. Is that on the Gossaburgh estate?-No, it is on Mr. Hay's own property.

9555. Are you free to fish for anybody you like?-I have been so in time past, and I am so now, so far as I know.

9556. Have you ever fished for any person except Hay & Co.?- Yes. I fished five years for Mr. Sandison at Cullivoe, two for Mr. Henderson, and one for Mr. Williamson at Ulsta.

9557. Where do you get your supplies?-Generally from the merchant for whom I am fishing. We don't have means to get them anywhere else.

9558. Are you generally a little bit in arrear end of the year?-No; I always manage to have something over to help to pay the land rent.

[Page 231]

9559. Do you pay your rent to Hay & Co.?-Yes, to the man whom they send up to make the settlement. They send a man every year to West Sandwick.

9560. Are you fishing for them just now?-No; the last one I fished for was Mr. Williamson. I have made no arrangement for the present year.

9561. Where are you getting your supplies for the incoming year?-We are shifting along the best way we can. We have some corn and potatoes of our own.

9562. Is not the time past for making up the boats' crews?-No; sometimes it is done before now, but sometimes it is as late as the month of April.

9563. Are there many men near you who have not made any arrangement for this year?-There are a good few, principally those who fished along with me last year.

9564. Then I suppose you are quite at liberty to go and fish for anybody you please?-So far as I know, I am.

9565. Have you no account running anywhere just now?-No.

9566. Are you not in debt to anybody?-I may be about 1s. or 2s. in debt at the shop at Linkshouse, but that is all.

9567. If you engage to fish for Mr. Leask at Ulsta, will you open an account at his shop at once?-I should like to be as long as possible in opening an account.

9568. But I suppose you won't get through the summer without doing so?-No. Of course I could not get through the summer without a little supplies.

9569. Do you think it would be an advantage to you if you could get your fish paid earlier in the season?-It would be an advantage in some respects. If I was not fishing for the proprietor, and if he wanted his rent at Martinmas and I did not settle with the fishcurer, then the proprietor might come upon me for the rent before I had money to pay him, and put me to expenses for that.

9570. Don't the proprietors generally wait for your rent till after the settlement?-In some cases they do, but not always.

9571. Have you known cases where they would not wait until after settlement?-I have not known any but in some cases they would like to have the money as soon as it is due.

9572. Have you known any case in which the fishcurer would not advance money for the rent when the proprietor was needing it?-I never knew that.

9573. Does the fish-curer generally advance you money for that purpose?-Yes, if there is money coming to me at the settlement.

9574. Have you known a fish-curer giving a line to the proprietor for the rent?-Yes. I have got an order from one of our curers to the proprietor himself. I have got an order from Mr. Henderson to Messrs. Hay, and it was accepted the same as cash. That was last year; the order was for about £5. It was a stamped order on the bank. It was only for part of my rent, and I had to shift for the rest somewhere else.

9575. Was it a cheque for the whole balance due to you?-Yes.

9576. Did you get it at settling time?-I got it at the time when Messrs. Hay settled, but I did not get an account from Mr. Henderson until after that.

9577. Then there was more due to you by Mr. Henderson than that?-A trifle. He took care to keep on the right side.

9578. Then you think it would not be of much difference to you to have an earlier payment?-I don't know. It might suit a temperate man very well who could manage his own affairs; but for the man who required all his pence, I don't think it would suit very well.

9579. Don't you think it would be better if you were to be paid so much, perhaps every week or every month, during the course of the fishing, and then to be paid the balance according to the actual price at the end of the season?-I think that would be a very good plan, so far as I can see. It would keep the men from turning into debt, and it would enable them to go to the best market; whereas we who have no money are compelled to take our supplies from the fish-curer.

9580. Do you think that is often a loss to you?-I am certain it is, because his prices must be a little higher in consequence.

9581. Have you felt that yourself?-I felt it last year.

9582. Then anything would be an improvement which would enable you to keep out of debt and deal where you pleased?-Yes; if we had the means of dealing where we pleased, then we would be enabled to go to the best market.

9583. Have you compared the goods you have got from the merchants for whom you were fishing with those you could get elsewhere?-Yes. Last summer we were paying 1s. 3d. per peck for the flour which we were getting from Mr. Williamson at Ulsta, and there was as good flour in Messrs. Hay's at Feideland at 1s. 1d.

9584. Have you ever made any other comparison of that kind?- No. Sometimes when we found the tea or sugar to be bad, we would try where we could get it best; but we could not run an account at these places, in case we might not be able to pay it from our fishing.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, HUGH HUGHSON, examined.

9585. You are a merchant at Gossaburgh?-Yes.

9586. Do you cure fish?-A few.

9587. How many boats had you last year?-I had no boats at all. I deal altogether in ready money. I pay ready cash for all that is brought to me, but I only do in that way on a small scale. I have no bondmen, and I wish for no bondmen.

9588. Do you pay for the fish as they are delivered?-Yes; cash down.

9589. Do you purchase generally from men who are fishing promiscuously along the coast?-Yes.

9590. Do you buy from men who are engaged to other merchants?-No. There are it few small boats that fish along the shore, and when they come along the shore with their fish I buy them.

9591. How do you fix the price of the green fish which you buy from them?-I fix it from the merchants' price. Supposing I can get £20 in cash for dry fish, I consider that I can give about 7s. per cwt. for the same fish green, calculating 21/4 of green to 1 cwt. of dry.

9592. Do you think that kind of business might be carried on on a large scale?-I think it could; and am sure it would be much better for the men. I have been twelve years in the country, and I have found that by paying ready money I have got more custom.

9593. Have you no credit transactions at all?-Yes. I try to oblige people at times when they want goods.

9594. But you have no security in the shape of fish which you are to receive?-No.

9595. In fact you have no security at all except their honesty?- No. I now produce my fish-book, which contains entries of the fish as they are landed, and the prices which I pay for them.

9596. Do you find that the existence of long credits prevents you from driving as large a business as you might otherwise do?-The islands have groaned under the system of long credits for many years.

9597. But do you find that it interferes with your driving a larger business?-I have no command over men, and I do not wish to have, but I always find that when there is any money going I get my fair share of it; and I think if every one did the same, they would get a fair proportion of business.

9598. If the men could not get credit from the larger fish-curers, do you think they would be ready to deliver their fish to you for ready money at the current price?-I think they would. I believe I would be able to [Page 232] buy £100 worth for every £20 worth I buy now, if the men could not get supplies on credit elsewhere.

9599. Do you think the introduction of a cash system of that kind would greatly injure the men, and make them unable to get through the winter?-I think the introduction of a cash system into the islands would not do very well for the poor men, because they must often have £2 or £3 of supplies from the curers before they can begin work. What they complain of is, that the merchants charge them a little as commission upon the money which they pay for the goods.

9600. But instead of getting supplies as they do now, they would be paid for their fish every time they delivered them, and then they could purchase goods as they pleased with the cash?-Yes; but there are many men at present who have no means, and who must come to me and ask me for a few pounds at a time with which to pay their rents. If I refuse them that assistance they could not carry through at all. They could not wait until they got money from their fishing; they would become paupers; and therefore they require advances.

9601. Do you buy any fish in winter and spring?-Yes; I buy a good few in winter when I can get them.

9602. But not enough to keep a man going with his family?-No. I made some money in Australia, and that is what keeps me going.

9603. But the men do not catch enough fish in winter and spring to keep their wives and families?-No. There are sometimes weeks when they can get none at all, the weather is often so stormy.

9604. If you have been in Australia, you know that there are storms elsewhere as well as here?-In Scotland they fish along the coast, but they have better boats and there are vessels always passing, while here there are currents from the Gulf Stream which would frighten any man.

9605. You think they have not so good boats here?-They have not, but they work them wonderfully, and they sometimes frighten me when I come across them.

9606. Have you any idea why it is that these men come to you for credit instead of going to the merchants to whom they sell their fish?-Of course they cannot all deal in one place.

9607. But would they not get their credit much easier from the merchant who is to receive their fish?-They might get it from him, but perhaps they might have the same reason that the man had when he was courting; one man might like me whilst others might not. They might take fancies of that kind.

9608. Do you sell your goods at a lower price than the large merchants?-I cannot say I do. I sell as low as I can, and if I was not selling reasonably low I could not carry on at all.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON examined.

9609. You are a fisherman at Mid Yell?-Yes. I go to the whaling and sealing.

9610. You hold a bit of land here?-Yes.

9611. Do you also go to the ling fishing?-Yes, when I am at home any time; but I generally go to the whaling.

9612. Do you go to Lerwick for an engagement?-Yes. I generally engage through Messrs. Hay.

9613. Do you get your month's wages in advance?-Yes; it is paid down in cash at the Custom House.

9614. You also get an allotment note?-Yes. I leave it with Messrs. Hay, and then they supply my family with what they require.

9615. Does your wife live at Mid Yell when you are away?-Yes.

9616. How does she get her supplies from Lerwick?-She sends an order down to them, and they send her up what she requires by the steamer.

9617. Is that the only account you keep?-That the only account I keep with them; but I keep some accounts with other men.

9618. Do you keep an account with the merchant for whom you go to the ling fishing afterwards?-Yes.

9619. When you come home from Greenland you settle with Messrs. Hay at the Custom House?-Yes, as soon as I come home.

9620. You did not use to do that formerly?-No; we always used to settle in the office.

9621. When you settled in the office, the amount of your account was deducted from what you were to get?-Yes; but what money we had to get was paid down to us in cash.

9622. But now you get all your money except what you have got in the ship, and the first month's advance?-Yes.

9623. And with the balance you walk down to Hay & Co.'s office and pay off their account?-Yes.

9624. I suppose you just go down with the clerk who has been along with you at the Custom House?-Yes.

9625. Do you always pay off their account on the same day that you are settled with?-Yes; but it only two years since we began to be paid in that way.

9626. Have you been at the whale fishing every year for some time back?-I have been eleven voyages at it but from 1852 I have been in the south as well as at Greenland, and I have been at the ling fishing too, and all sorts of trades.

9627. When is your last payment of oil-money generally settled for?-When the oil has been boiled at Dundee or Peterhead, and they know how much there is of it, the money is sent on to Lerwick. If we are there to receive it we will get it as soon as it comes and if not, it will lie until we come.

9628. Do you get it at the Custom House or Messrs. Hay's office?-If we like, we get it at the Custom House; but this year I would not go there and I got it at the office. It was at night, and we could not get access to the Custom House; but as I wanted to get clear. I was just paid at the office.

9629. Is your first payment of wages and oil-money after you come home generally made before you leave Lerwick and come to Yell?-It is now. They are very strict about that. They like you to settle up before you leave the town.

9630. What amount of cash do you generally get as the first payment on a Greenland voyage?-It depends on what kind of voyage we make. Sometimes we have very little to get. Last year I had somewhere about £10 or £12 to get for wages and the first payment of oil-money. I had taken £2, 5s. of out-takes from Messrs. Hay besides my first month's advance. That was for supplies to my family at home while I was away. I was only absent for six weeks.

9631. What ship were you in?-The 'Labrador' of London. We made a good voyage.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, DANIEL MORE, examined.

9632. You are a fisherman and tenant at Cunningster?-I am a fisherman, but not a tenant. I have got a house of my own.

9633. How long have you been there?-About two months-since Martinmas. I was at Basta before, and at Colvister, and at Basta before that.

9634. Why have you changed so often? Could you not get a bit of ground to sit upon?-I was twenty-two years at first in Basta, and then I lost my health, and I began some little business in groceries. The landlord of the ground was Mr. George Hoseason, but the tacksman was his half-brother, Mr. Hoseason of Mossbank. He thought I was doing too well in my grocery business, and taking away too much from their shop, and he put me away from there.

[Page 233]

9635. How did you know that he put you away for that reason?- Because they told me that.

9636. How long is it since that occurred?-About twelve years ago.

9637. Where did you go next?-To Colvister, where I was under Mr. William Henderson of Gloup, brother of Mr. George Henderson of Burravoe. I had a small shop there.

9638. Why did you leave that?-I left because I was not a fisherman. Mr. Henderson wanted me to go to the fishing; but as I would not he got another in my place, and thought he would make better of it.

9639. Is it usual for a proprietor to turn away a man who does not fish?-Yes. I paid £1 more than every man who fished every year since I left the fishing, except to Mr. Hoseason of Basta.

9640. Did you pay that to Mr. Henderson while you were at Colvister?-Yes.

9641. How long were you there?-Eight years.

9642. Did you pay £8 of additional rent to him during that time?- Yes. The other tenants paid £4 for the same amount of land that I paid £5 for.

9643. Did he tell you that that was because you did not fish?- Yes.

9644. Did he tell you that when you took the ground?-No; he did not say very much about it at that time.

9645. But he told you afterwards that you must pay £1 a year more if you did not fish?-Yes.

9646. Why did you leave?-I did not leave until he warned me.

9647. Why did he warn you?-Because he wanted a skipper for a boat.

9648. Where have you been since?-I was on Basta for three years.

9649. Where are you now?-On Major Cameron's property, under Mr. Walker. I have no shop there; but I have a house and a bit of ground, which I bought with money I had saved. I am not doing anything at present.

9650. Have you known many men who have been turned out of their holdings because they did not fish?-I have known a few in Yell. The proprietors of the land, if they did not fish for them, would turn them out.

9651. Is that a common understanding among the people?-Yes.

9659. Is there anything else you want to say about it?-Nothing particular, but that I know I have been harshly handled because they thought I made a living by selling some groceries and one thing and another. They did not like it very well, and in that way they turned me out of both places.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN S. HOUSTON, examined.

9653. You are parochial schoolmaster of North Yell?-I am.

9654. You have had considerable experience in the management of property?-Yes, and in dividing runrig lands.

9655. How long have you been in the country?-Between 15 and 16 years.

9656. Have you had experience as to the relations existing between proprietors of land and fish-merchants in Shetland?- A little.

9657. Would you explain the nature of the arrangements that have been made in former times, and which are now made, by which the rent of the proprietor is paid through or by the fish-merchant?-When I came to Shetland, Major Cameron's property in Yell was let to Mr. Sandison as tacksman; but when the Major came from India, the lease had expired, and he appointed me to take charge of his property. Frequently at rent time the parties had not received their money for fish, and as a necessary consequence they got lines from their curer, the sums in which were placed to their credit by Major Cameron. The sum of these lines when all was over was sent to the fish-curer, the party who gave the lines, and a cheque on the bank was given for them.

9658. Was that merely a practice resorted to for the convenience of the fishermen and the proprietor, or was there an understanding with the fish-curer that he should make these advances?-It was a convenience for all parties.

9659. You are not aware that there was any understanding between the fish-curer and the proprietor to that effect?-There was an understanding between Major Cameron and Mr. Sandison.

9660. Was Mr. Sandison the fish-curer you have referred to?- Yes, Sandison Brothers. There was an understanding that any of Major Cameron's tenants who were what might be called reckless or careless, should not be allowed to overdraw their earnings, but that something should be left for their rent.

9661. Was Mr. Sandison a tenant of Major Cameron's in his fishcuring premises?-Yes.

9662. Were these lines always in the same form?-Generally they were the same. I have plenty of them at home.*

9663. Are you aware of a similar practice having existed on any other estate?-I believe it has existed but I cannot speak so positively about it on other estates. I may say that similar lines have also been given to Major Cameron and myself from another curer in North Yell, Mr. William Pole, jun. before he became a partner of the Mossbank firm.

9664. Had he premises from Major Cameron also?-No; he had his father's premises. With regard to these lines, I may state that, although there was no understanding on the subject, Major Cameron made it a practice not to come to his tenants asking for their rents until he was pretty sure that everything was nearly cut-and-dry for him.

9665. Do you think it is a general practice in Shetland for the landlord to fix his rent day so as to be convenient for the fishermen?-I think it is. They fix it after settlement. Mr. Walker, the first year he was factor for Major Cameron, came nearly close to his time, 11th November, but since then he has not done so.

9666. You are not aware whether that practice of giving lines exists in Yell now?-It does exist. I myself have paid rents by orders for cattle bought from Major Cameron's tenants.

9667. Have you had much intercourse with the fishermen in your district of the country?-Yes; I often hear their conversations.

9668. Do you know generally the way in which business is conducted in the fish trade?-I think I do.

9669. Are you aware that much complaint exists with regard to the way in which the current price for fish is fixed at the end of the season?-The fishermen, as a general rule always complain.

9670. What are the grounds of their complaint?-I think the reason why they complain is, that they believe the curers never give them so large a price as they should do. There is a sort of jealousy abroad amongst all the fishermen, which perhaps originated in formerdays, but which is still rankling in their bosoms.

9671. A jealousy of whom?-A jealousy of the fish-curers, that they don't give them fair play.

9672. Have you seen any cases where you thought they did not get fair play?-Not for some time past.

9673. Are you able to form an opinion upon the question whether the fishermen are justified in complaining of the manner in which the current price is fixed?-I think, as a general rule, they are not. I know practically, from curers books that I had access to, that the current price is fairly fixed.

9674. Have you been employed as an [Page 234] accountant?- No; but I have had confidence placed in me, and I have seen their books.

9675. Have you any means of knowing whether there are more prices than one for the fish, according to the market to which they are sent?-I am aware that each curer does not receive the same price. There are exceptions to the rule. Some send their fish direct to the foreign market, and some sell to a home firm, who require something for their risk and trouble.

9676. Do you think the present system of distant payments for the fish could be altered, and a better one introduced?-I don't well see how it could be altered for the benefit of the fishermen.

9677. Is that on account of the bad seasons which occur occasionally?-Not altogether on account of the bad season, but it suits them better. Many of them prefer to leave their money with their curer until they require it for their rents.

9678. They prefer him to act as their banker?-Exactly.

9679. Is it not the case that many fishermen who ask advances from their curers before the fishing season begins, or during its course, are really capitalists with considerable sums in the bank?-I am not aware of any case of that kind, but I know plenty of fishermen who have money in the bank. I should say that the system would perhaps be more healthy if the fishermen were paid when the fishing was over. That would remove many grievances now complained of.

9680. Do you think they should be paid in July or August?-In the end of August.

9681. But if they were paid then they might get a lower price than the fish-merchants eventually got?-They would have to be paid at a rate by which the curer would be certain to be safe as his fish had not gone to market, and they did not know what they would realize; but the same holds good on the coast of Scotland in the herring fishing.

9682. Would the fishermen, so far as you know them, be content with a system of that sort?-I cannot say; I rather think not.

9683. Do you think they would like to have the chance of a larger price?-They would engage just now for the next season if they were satisfied that they would realize 1s. more than the market would afford them at Martinmas.

9684. But they would not engage otherwise?-No.

9685. Do you think they would endeavour to get quit of such a bargain if the price at Martinmas should turn out to be higher than what they had agreed for the commencement of the season?- Attempts are made of that nature in their dealings in the selling of cattle.

9686. Are cattle sometimes sold according to a current price at a later period?-Cattle are sometimes bought during the spring. If not bought then, they are sold by auction at fixed sales in May, and in the mainland they have a Martinmas sale for fat cattle.

9687. But they are sometimes sold before these sales?-They are sold in spring to parties going through the district seeking cattle to buy; and during the last season the prices were so very high at the spring sales, that I know parties who had sold their cattle before, and then came back upon the purchaser asking him for the currency of the sale, although their animals had been sold months before.

9688. Did they get what they asked?-In one case they did.

9689. Was that from a proprietor?-No.

9690. Does the practice of marking the horns of cattle exist in Yell?-It does.

9691. In what circumstances is that done?-If a tenant becomes indebted to me and cannot pay me in cash, he offers me one of his cattle and to make sure of it I cut the initials of my name on its horns.

9692. Are you assuming that you are the landlord?-It does not matter whether I am the landlord or not. I may be a merchant, and it is the merchants who do it; the landlord does not require to do it, because the hypothec protects him.

9693. But the merchant takes his chance of the landlord's hypothec interfering with him?-Yes.

9694. If a merchant marks a beast in that way, is it generally exposed at the next periodical sale?-Sometimes it is, but sometimes it is taken away at a price fixed upon at the time. If not, it is sold, and the merchant gets his money.

9695. Do you think the debtor in that case has perfect freedom in fixing the price?-Both parties fix it.

9696. But do you think the debtor is under no constraint?-None. Arbitration would decide it.

9697. Arbitration might decide it, but is arbitration resorted to?- Sometimes. A person understood to be qualified puts a value upon the cattle, or the currency at which such animals are selling at that time is taken.

9698. It has been alleged that when merchants got people deeply in debt they mark their cattle, and they can take them at any price they choose: is that so?-I have never seen a case of that kind. Such a practice may have existed 20 or 30 years ago, but I am entirely ignorant of it. I may further state something which was not exactly implied in your questions, but which in the south is generally misunderstood. As a general rule, the fishermen get one-third of the selling price of the fish. Fish dry in 5-9ths-that is 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. dry, fit for the market,-and it is understood that the curer pays one-third; but when the price may be £20 and upwards, he pays more than one-third of the selling prices. When the price is £14 or £15 he can only afford to pay one-third, the expenses being the same per ton for curing at the high price as at the low price. Suppose he sells his fish at £20 per ton, he pays his fishermen £7; 21/4 times 7 are £15, 15s. The curing of that ton of fish costs him £2, 10s., that is £18, 5s., leaving him £1, 15s. to pay for his salt, to transport them to his store, and ship them on board a vessel, and to pay their freight to Leith. Hence it follows that the fish-curer has very little profit indeed.

9699. Upon what data is that conclusion of yours rounded?-Upon facts which I know with regard to the prices paid by curers.

9700. Do you know the price of the salt and the expenses of curing, through the curers themselves?-The fixed price for curing has always been 50s.

9701. That is the price which they charge?-That is the price which a party would charge a curer for curing his fish.

9702. That would be for salting and curing?-They would salt them, but the salt belongs to the curer.

9703. But the price of the salt is included in the 50s.?-No. I have my information from a curer of long standing, but who is not now in the trade.

9704. Have you any information to give with regard to the obligations of fishermen upon other estates in Shetland to fish for the landlords?-I have had a good deal to do with the property of Simbister, on which there were no tenants bound to fish, except those belonging to the Coningsburgh district, who were under tack to Mouat. Their leases bound them to do so; but, on the expiry of that lease, Mr. Bruce did not intend to let any of his lands again after that fashion. To my knowledge he refused to let them to a party who would have been a good tenant.

9705. Is there any other point falling within this inquiry upon which you are prepared to make any statement?-The only other statement I should wish to make would be a sort of qualification as to why the fishermen are generally dissatisfied with the prices they get. It is understood that they get one-third, or a little more when the prices are high, and if that is the understanding they argue that they ought to see the bills of sale. They say, 'Why not lay down to us when you settle, the document according to which you have sold your fish; we don't know what you have sold them at, we only have that from hearsay.' That is the only reason why I think the fishermen actually complain.

9706. Do you see any reason why they should not see the bills of sale?-I think they are entitled to see them.

[Page 235]

9707. Are they not really partners with the curer?-They are; for they are risking the market as well as the curer.

9708. Have you read the evidence that was given before this Commission in Edinburgh?-I have; and the only observation I would make upon it is, that I am not a believer in it generally. Facts are stated as existing many years ago, but which are not applicable to the present day, as a general rule, throughout Shetland.

9709. Do you think the condition of Shetland has improved during the sixteen years you have lived in it?-Yes; especially during the last five, and more especially during the last three years. The prices of cattle have been so high that a tenant could pay his rent at once with an animal, when he could not do that before. The price of fish has also improved.

9710. These, however, may be transient facts?-They may be.

9711. Prices may fall?-They may.

9712. Is there any permanent cause operating to improve the condition of Shetland?-There is more direct communication with the south. Purchasers come into it now and buy directly, instead of buying through natives resident here acting as their agents, and who perhaps might charge something extra for their own trouble, and that had to come off the people. There is one part of Mr. Walker's evidence which I consider to be perfectly true, where he referred to the giving of credit to children or almost children. I believe that to be an injurious practice, because children are initiated into the system of getting credit when they are eleven or twelve years old, and it never ceases with them unless they leave home. It may in certain cases cease; but as a general rule it does not, and I think it is like learning them to smoke tobacco, or anything of that sort.

9713. Is there any other point in Mr. Walker's evidence, or the evidence given in Edinburgh, which you consider to be true?-The evidence given in Edinburgh contained a great many facts highly coloured, and I may add somewhat exaggerated.

9714. Do you think the present state of the hosiery trade is a wholesome one?-No. I consider the hosiery trade, as a whole, to be a morally unhealthy one as it present exists.

9715. Is that because of the facilities which offers for the younger members of the family to get into debt?-It is not that. I speak particularly of Yell, where yarn is produced; the merchants have to lay a higher price on their goods when they give them for yarn than they would do for cash, or for any other article brought to them which was worth its value in cash.

9716. Do they put a higher price upon the goods which they sell for yarn?-They must do it.

9717. Is not that high price charged in all other sales as well as in sales which they make for yarn?-No; the country merchants here have two prices.

9718. You heard the evidence of Mr. Pole to-day, in which he said they had only one price for all their goods?-Yes. Mr. Pole seems to have adopted a new system. I know they had two prices some time ago.

9719. You are aware that two prices did exist there?-Yes, and in many other places.

9720. You believe that to be unwholesome?-I do.

9721. Does it create a bad feeling towards the merchant?-I think the practice is morally wrong. To meet these things, many females come, not with 100 threads in each cut, but with from 90 down to 80, obliging the merchant to count the yarn which he buys from certain parties in whom he has not implicit confidence.

9722. Of course that encourages deception?-Yes. With regard to the trade in yarn, the merchant buys it according to its quality. If he is to sell it in Lerwick, he employs a party for the purpose, who receives a percentage for selling it. The merchant has also to pay freight, and he has to lay these things upon his goods.

9723. Are you aware that in Lerwick the practice of the merchants is not to sell worsted at all, but merely to purchase what they want for their own use?-I am not aware of that. I know there are merchants in Lerwick who do sell worsted, but they could scarcely be called hosiery merchants. They are generally people who sell for some one in the country, sometimes as a favour, and sometimes for commission.

9724. These are not hosiery shops?-No; they are sometimes grocers.

9725. I fancy that a party selling yarn may more readily take it to a grocer if she wants provisions rather than dry goods, as she will not get provisions in Lerwick from the merchants?-The grocer won't buy it unless he requires it for family use, but he will take it from a merchant as a favour, and sell it for him.

9726. But I have been informed by many merchants in Lerwick that they always purchase Shetland worsted for money; and as they require all they can get and more for their own use, they do not sell it again at all; so that, according to that information, any person going from Yell to Lerwick and selling worsted, could get the highest cash price for it from one of the hosiery merchants: is that not consistent with your knowledge of the matter?-I am aware that cash has been given. I have known a firm that dealt with a Lerwick hosiery merchant to a very large extent, and perhaps received £90 in cash for hosiery and yarn in one season. That, however, I looked upon as an exception.

9727. You heard the evidence of William Stewart with regard to Whalsay?-Yes.

9728. You were employed by the late Mr. Bruce to divide the toons there?-Yes. He wished to abolish the run-rig system, and to place his tenants on a money-paying system-to fish for whom they chose, and to pay him a rent. I was employed to make the division, and I divided every toon in the island, except one.

9729. At that time did you find that the system which Stewart described was either prevailing, or had been prevailing shortly before?-It was just dying out.**

[Page 236]

9730. Does any other person wish to be examined, or to make any statement? [No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until further notice.

*The witness afterwards forwarded a number of these lines. They were in similar terms to the following:-

'CULLIVOE, 8 . 1864. '£7, 0s. 7d.

'Mr. HOUSTON,-Please credit A.B. in rent account the sum of seven pounds and sevenpence, and charge to account of ' SANDISON BROTHERS.'

**Mr. Houston afterwards submitted the following remarks by way of supplement to his evidence;-The collecting of rents and of long standing, and the dividing and renting of farms, and other unavoidable accompaniments, placed me as a temporary link between landlord and tenant, and tended to give me a knowledge of Shetland affairs in general, as existing between landlord and tenant, between fish-curer and fishermen, and between merchant and customer. Although the dividing and letting of farms may not be considered relevant to the present inquiry into the truck system, I hold a . No doubt poverty is the foundation upon which the truck system has been reared, and may justly be called its parent; and the origin may be traced, very clearly too, to the subdividing of farms, it being the interest of the landlord-curer to accommodate as many fishermen as possible. In many districts, and on small properties where the landlord is storekeeper and curer, that system is still upheld, and with pious care; while on many of the larger properties the proprietors are endeavouring to abolish it. The islands being over-populated, and the farms so insignificantly small, it follows as a result that the inhabitants have to depend on external aid, and throw themselves, although reluctantly it may be, into the arms of a system which, however honestly conducted, has a tendency to hamper their movements, to bereave them of independence, and to plunge parents and their children into debt, out of which they may never be able to extricate themselves. There is an antidote, but its application would require to be a work of .

.

In my evidence I stated that at present I considered fishermen were generally well treated, and received as high a price as the curer could well afford; but at same time I consider the curer is acting judiciously. Under the present arrangement of prices, I can only view the curer and his fishermen in the light of a joint-stock company. The curer supplies boats and lines directly or indirectly. The fishermen give their labour and risk their lives, and when the summer fishing closes, the part the fishermen play in the speculation terminates. The curer prepares the fish for the market, disposes of them, and receives the cash. As the price to be paid to the fishermen is regulated by the market price, I consider it the bounden duty of the curer to lay before the fishermen, at settling, the , that document being the common property of , and more especially as three-fourths at least of the cash realized is understood to belong to the men. , however, ; and hence the fishermen, naturally jealous, and still wincing under the scars of former years, are never satisfied; and I consider the curer in acting thus is reprehensible, and the fishermen justified in complaining, even when the curer is a sufferer. Were it made penal on the part of the curer to treat the bargain so, there would be less injustice done to himself, and less suspicion thrown around his integrity. Since the truck uproar has spread its wings on the Shetland blast, and breathed offensively in the faces even of Her Majesty's Government, it has been suggested by strangers that curers should pay their fishermen each time fish was delivered. That mode would not be advantageous to the fishermen. It would suit their interests better to be paid at the close of the fishing, on the same principle as is done by those engaged in the seal trade. At every station during the summer fishing there is a 'beach price,' and if that price was paid for the summer's catch at the close of the fishing it would put the fishermen in a position of buying with instead of being dependent on their curer's store for months after the fishing had closed. The residue of the price, which would be a mere trifle, would be paid them when the fish was sold, and the price known, on the same principle as 'oil-money' in the seal trade. I have no doubt whatever but such a mode, if adopted, would tend to put a stop to the present and facilities of drawing so largely upon the curer's store. The fisherman who has neither money nor must go to his curer's store, as he has no other alternative; but were he put in possession of his earnings at the close of the fishing, for a time would disappear from his individual horizon. I may mention that the hosier referred to in my evidence as having paid £90 in cash in a year to a party in the country for hosiery and yarn was Mr. Robert Linklater, Lerwick; and I may further state that I have known Mr. Robert Sinclair give £15 once on a £20 transaction of hosiery, etc.

BALTASOUND, UNST: FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1872.

-MR. GUTHRIE.

JOAN OGILVY, examined.

9731. Have you been in the habit of knitting with your own worsted?-Yes; at times with my own worsted, and at times with worsted from other people.

9732. When you knit with your own worsted, do you spin it yourself?-No; sometimes I buy it, and sometimes other people spin it for me; but it is not much that I do in that way. The most I have made has been for other people.

9733. Do you not spin at all?-No; my mother spins a little and I have knitted that and sold the hosiery.

9734. At what shops do you buy worsted here?-I have not bought any, except a little, once, at John Johnston's shop. I paid 3d. a cut for it in cash.

9735. Do they not give you worsted unless you pay for it in money?-I never asked it.

9736. Have you never asked for worsted when you were selling your hosiery?-No.

9737. Are you generally paid for your hosiery in goods?-Yes, goods or other articles which I require such as tea and meal, and other things.

9738. Do you sell most of your knitting to Mrs. Spence?-No. I have sold nothing to her, except one half-shawl. I have sold a few veils to John Johnston. They are very fine veils that I knit, and I get 1s. 6d. for each of them.

9739. Are you always paid for them in goods?-No. I have got cash. I knit superior articles, and I have sometimes got as much as 30s. for knitting one silk shawl. That was not the price of the shawl: it was merely for the knitting.

9740. But when you sell a shawl made by yourself, what do you get for it?-I sold one worsted shawl in May in John Johnston's shop, for which I got 19s. 6d. I did not ask for any cash, because it was not the custom to give it.

9741. Is it the custom here to pay for hosiery in nothing but goods?-I get cash at times.

9742. Are your shawls generally worth about 20s.?-No; I have sold half-shawls at 16s., and others at 15s. and 14s.

9743. What was the largest sum you ever got in money when you sold a shawl of that value?-15s.; that was the whole price of it, but that was some years back, and I sold it to a lady.

9744. But when you sold to a merchant have you ever got the whole price in money?-No; I never asked it.

9745. Do you get a higher price for your work when you take it in goods than when you get money for it?-I don't think so.

9746. You said you sold a shawl in May last for 19s. 6d., and got the price all in goods. Suppose you had asked payment for that shawl in money, would you have asked the same price for it?- Yes, but I would not have got it. They would not have give cash for it.

9747. Would you not have got 2s. 6d. less in money?-I did not ask for it in that way.

9748. Would you have sold that shawl for 17s. if you had got money?-I think so.

9749. Would you rather have had the 17s. in money than the 19s. 6d. in goods?-I don't think I would have been any better.

9750. Did you want the goods?-Yes.

9751. Would you not have got them cheaper if you had had the cash in your hand to pay for them?-I might have got them a little cheaper.

9752. Do you think you would always be willing to sell your hosiery goods a little cheaper if you were paid in cash instead of in goods?-I don't think I would. The price is low enough, even with the goods payment.

9753. When you get the worsted given out to you, are you paid in money or in goods for knitting it?-Sometimes in money and sometimes in goods, just as I ask it.

9754. For whom do you knit in that way?-I have knitted some for Mrs. Spence. I knit fine silk for her, not Shetland worsted. I got 30s. for knitting one shawl for her, and 25s. for another; but these were very fine ones, and of large size. It took me a long time to work them. She paid me for these in cash.

9755. Did she hand you over the money, or did she send you down to the shop for it?-She gave me the money with her own hand.

9756. Did she do so in both cases?-Yes; part of it, and part I took a little goods for, just as suited myself.

9757. How much of the 30s. did she hand you over in cash?-I cannot say exactly now, because it is more than a year ago.

9758. Did she give you a half of it in cash?-More than that.

9759. How did you get the rest in goods? Did you go to the shop for them?-No. They were brought from Lerwick for me. They were women's cloth jackets.

9760. Were you to sell these in your own shop?-I have no shop.

9761. Did you not sell groceries?-No. I had a little goods at one time to sell for a man in Lerwick, but I have none now. I gave out hosiery to the girls, and when they brought it back I served them with the goods which I had got from the man in Lerwick.

9762. Who was he?-Peter Edward Petrie.

9763. Does he deal in hosiery?-Yes.

9764. And does he deal in groceries in Lerwick?-He has given up his shop, but he dealt there at one time in soft goods and tea.

9765. How much cash did you get from Mrs. [Page 237] Spence for the 25s. shawl?-I don't remember; it is two years ago.

9766. Have you sold some things to Mrs. Spence since?-No; but I have always knitted some things for her. The last was a fine worsted shawl. I took it to her about a month ago. I think the price would be 12s., but I have not settled with her yet.

9767. Do you keep an account with her?-She keeps an account for me herself.

9768. Have you not got any part of the price of that shawl?-The price is not settled, but I have got some goods for it.

9769. Do you sometimes take a line from her?-No; I have had no lines from her.

9770. Is that because there is an account for you in her books, and you don't need them?-I suppose so.

9771. When you want goods do you go to the shop and get them?-Yes, I get them from her.

9772. Does she attend in the shop?-I believe she does at times, but she does not keep the things there which she supplies to us. The things for the knitting come from Lerwick.

9773. She just enters these things against you in your account, and then she enters in your favour the shawls which you make, and she balances now and then?-Yes.

9774. How often do you settle your account with her?-Not often. I have not had a great deal of goods from her.

9775. Have you got any money at all from her for what you have knitted?-Yes; but I could not say how much, because I did not think of keeping an account of it.

9776. Will you knit £2 or £3 worth to her in the course of a year?-I did that when I was knitting for her, and perhaps it little more.

9777. How much of that would you get in money?-I would get it all from her if I asked it. I have got £2 a time from her.

9778. Was that for knitting, or for a shawl that you were selling?- It was for knitting.

9779. Did you want the money to pay your rent?-Yes, partly, and partly for other things.

9780. Do you know that Mrs. Spence always gives you goods for your knitting which she gets from Lerwick?-Yes, when I ask them; but when I ask for cash I get it.

9781. But you do not often ask for cash?-I have oftener asked cash from her than from any other person and she always gave it to me because she knew I could not do without it.

9782. Are you a finer knitter than ordinary?-Yes. I make very good articles.

9783. Do you sometimes knit a shawl for a special order?-Yes.

9784. Do you sometimes make a bargain then that you are to be paid in cash for it?-Yes.

9785. Do you think the price is less when you make bargain that you are to be paid in money than when you take it out in goods?- No, it is not less.

9786. Would you not sell a shawl for it less price if you knew you were to get it in money than if you knew you were only to be paid in goods?-I might have 1s. less, but not much less.

9787. Have you never got a line from Mrs. Spence, or from any shop here?-No. I have got no lines since the late Mrs. Dr. Edmonstone died. I knitted for her, and sometimes I got cash from her, and sometimes lines for goods on the shop.

9788. But that was some time ago?-Yes.

9789. Do you sometimes knit for John Johnston?-Yes. I get worsted from him to knit, and I take it back to him again. I have got 10s. from him for knitting a shawl of 27 scores: that is an ordinary size. I got none of that in money. I never asked it from him. He keeps a shop, and therefore I don't ask him for money.

9790. Then why do you ask Mrs. Spence for money? Is it because she does not keep a shop?-She only keeps soft goods.

9791. And you are not always wanting soft goods?-No.

9792. Do you do anything besides knitting?-I work at the harvest, and at other kinds of work. I have it very small farm of my own.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Mrs. JANET ROBERTSON, examined.

9793. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.

9794. Do you knit with your own worsted?-No; the worsted is given out to me.

9795. Who do you generally knit for?-Mrs. Spence.

9796. Do you do a great deal of fine work for her?-Yes.

9797. How do you receive payment?-In goods and money. I get money when I want it, but it is generally in goods. I get supplies in the shop upon a line which Mrs. Spence gives me. I take the line to the shop at once and get what goods or provisions I require.

9798. Does Mrs. Spence take the shawl from you and give you a line in her own house, which is beside the shop?-Yes.

9799. Then you go with the line into the shop and get what goods you want?-Yes. The line is addressed to Messrs. Spence & Co., and signed by her, and the which is due is written upon it.

9800. Is that always the way in which you are paid?-Yes.

9801. How often do you go with work to Mrs. Spence?-Perhaps once a month; just when my work is finished.

9802. Have you generally 15s. or 20s. to get?-Perhaps from 10s. to 12s.

9803. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of fine worsted?-The highest is 12s. There are thirty-three cuts of worsted given out to me for knitting a shawl of 30 scores. I think the price of the worsted is 3d. or 4d. a cut, but I never bought any myself.

9804. When you do not get provisions or groceries, but take soft goods for your knitting, do you go to the shop for them, or do you get them from Mrs. Spence herself?-I get them from the shop.

9805. Have you knitted for any person except Mrs. Spence?-I have done a little for John Johnston; but I am paid in the same way there, in goods.

9806. Do you get no lines there?-No.

9807. You just take the article to the shop and get the goods you want?-Yes.

9808. How do you manage when you are to pay your rent?-I have no rent to pay. I have a house of my own.

9809. Do you keep an account with any of the shops?-No.

9810. Do you always get your provisions from Spence & Co.'s at Haroldswick?-Yes.

9811. What do you pay for tea?-10d. and 1s. per quarter.

9812. What do you pay for your meal?-1s. 4d. a peck. It is 1s. 5d. just now.

9813. What do you pay for a half-loaf?-5d.

9814. Is that brought from Lerwick?-Yes.

9815. What do you pay for unbleached cotton?-10d.; but I have not bought it for some time back. There is some of it at 6d., but not of such a good quality. The cotton at 6d. is half-bleached. I bought that half-bleached cotton in summer, and I am sure I paid 6d. a yard for it.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN LAURENSON, examined.

9816. You are a fisherman at Burrafirth?-I am.

9817. You hold a bit of land there?-Yes, from Mr. Edmonstone of Buness.

9818. What rent do you pay?-£5.

9819. Are you bound to fish for any person in particular?- [Page 238] Not that I know of, but I fish for Spence & Co. I have fished for them since they commenced business, and before that to Mr. David Edmonstone, when he was carrying on business in that way.

9820. Have you fished for any other person in Unst?-Yes. I fished first for the late Mr. Thomas Edmonstone of Buness, and then for Mr. Samuel Hunter.

9821. Have you always been free to fish for any person you chose?-I don't think so. When I was a tenant to the late Mr. Edmonstone of Buness I fished for him, and when Mr. Hunter got a tack of the land I fished for him, but I could not tell exactly whether I was free to fish for any other person or not.

9822. You don't know what would have happened to you if you had sold your fish to anybody else?-I do not.

9823. But now you can fish for any person you please?-I believe I can.

9824. Is there any other person except Spence & Co. to whom you can sell your fish here?-There is no one in our quarter except Mr. John Johnston. He does a little in the fish way, but we don't sell any to him.

9825. Do most of the people hereabout fish for Spence & Co., and settle with them every winter?-Yes.

9826. Have you settled with them for last year?-Yes, I settled about 10th January at Haroldswick.

9827. Have you a pass-book?-No.

9828. Have you an account in their books?-Yes.

9829. Is that read over to you, or do you know the balance yourself?-It is read over on the day of settlement.

9830. Have you a note of the articles you have got?-No.

9831. Then how do you know that your account is correct?-I have never found anything wrong with regard to the articles which I had got, and I was quite satisfied they were all correct.

9832. Did you remember that you had got all the articles, and the price of them, when they were read over to you?-Yes.

9833. Did you order them?-Yes; I either got them myself or some member of my family brought them home.

9834. But are you sure that you can recollect perfectly well both the articles you got, and the quantities, and the prices?-Yes; when the account is read over to me I can.

9835. When you get a thing out of the shop, do you always know the price of it?-Yes.

9836. You ask the price, and you are told what it is at the time when you buy it?-Yes.

9837. Do you get all your supplies there?-Yes; unless perhaps a very little which we may buy from some other shop.

9838. Do you sometimes buy at Johnston's shop?-Yes, but very little.

9839. Do you pay for that at the time?-Yes.

9840. You have not an account with Johnston?-No.

9841. I suppose most of your neighbours have an account with Spence & Co. and get the most of their supplies from them?-Yes.

9842. Do none of them deal with other shops in the district?-I am not able to say what they do.

9843. What was the price of meal at Spence & Co.'s shop during the past year?-1s. 5d. per 8 lbs. I think it was the same price for almost the whole year. I rather think it was 1s. 4d. once, but I cannot say.

9844. Have you got meal from any other shop?-Yes, from Mr. Isbister. The price there was 1s. 4d.

9845. Did you pay for that in cash?-Yes.

9846. Was the meal of the same quality?-Yes.

9847. Do you buy any soft goods from Spence & Co.'s shop?- Yes, I buy white cotton for making oilskin clothes and shirts. We pay from 41/2d. to 8d., according to the quality of the cotton. It is generally unbleached cotton that we buy.

9848. Do you oil it and make it waterproof yourself?-Yes.

9849. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Spence & Co. They pay it to Mr. Edmonstone for me.

9850. Do you mean that it is put down in your account with them against you?-Yes.

9851. How do they pay it to Mr. Edmonstone?-In cash, I suppose; but I don't know anything about that.

9852. They don't give you a line to Mr. Edmonstone?-No.

9853. Do you get receipts for your rent?-Yes, if we ask for them.

9854. But you don't generally ask for them?-No.

9855. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year, or is the balance against you?-The balance is against me at present, and it has been against me since the first year of the company in consequence of bad fishings and bad crops.

9856. What boat hire do you pay?-£2, 14s. for the boat, or 9s. per man. I buy my own lines. I get them at fishing time, and they are marked into the account. The price is from 2s. 3d. to 3s. per line, according to the weight of the lines. I require ten ground lines and a line for a buoy rope.

9857. Does each man require that number?-Yes.

9858. Do you pay about 24s. for the ten lines?-Yes; and then we have to furnish these lines with smaller lines and hooks. If they are all new, the cost of lines and hooks will be about 30s. per man for what we call a weight of lines.

9859. How do you settle for them?-We settle for them along with all the rest of our accounts on the day of settlement. The whole account is read over and summed up together, and then the rent is brought forward, and the whole dealings put in. Our earnings are placed on the credit side of the page, and then balance is struck in our favour, or against us, as case may be.

9860. Are all the lines charged against you one year?-Yes.

9861. When you buy the lines at the beginning of the fishing season, there is no arrangement that the price of them is to be charged against, the next three years, and that you are to pay them by instalments?-No.

9862. Do you return the lines at the end of the season?-No; we keep them. They will perhaps serve for three seasons; or if the lines are really good, they may do for four.

9863. Then you will have nothing to pay for lines the second year if you have paid them up in the first year?-If we have paid them up we have nothing to pay afterwards.

9864. Do you usually manage to pay up your lines in the first year?-We generally pay what we can when we settle. What we have over from the fishing is just put to the payment of the whole that we are due.

9865. Are there any other fishing expenses excepting the boats and lines?-Yes; the hooks and tomes, or small lines, have always to be put in repair.

9866. Do you pay for them?-Yes; we buy the whole of them, and we repair the tomes and hooks ourselves.

9867. Then that is not an additional expense?-No.

9868. Do you ever get any cash advanced to you from Spence & Co.?-At times I get a few shillings.

9869. How long is it since you began to fish for them?-I have fished for Mr. Spence since 1857, and for Spence & Co. in 1868, 1869, 1870, and 1871.

9870. Have you ever got anything more than four shillings in cash?-No, not in cash.

9871. Have you any taxes or poor-rates to pay?-Yes; the poor-rates are charged by Mr. White, the inspector and collector, and they are paid in cash.

9872. Do you draw that from your account with the company, or how do you raise the cash for it?-I get a little cash from the company to pay my poor-rates.

9873. Do you sell any stock off your farm?-Yes, when I have a cow I sell it. I cannot sell one every year; I have not so many as that.

9874. Have you no other beasts but cows?-No.

[Page 239]

9875. Who did you sell your last cow to?-The last I sold to the company; it was a three-year-old quey. It was taken to the sale in May 1871, and I got 9s., which was put to my account. I got no money.

9876. Did you ever get money for any of the stock you have sold during the last five years?-No.

9877. Were they always put into your account?-Yes.

9878. Did you always sell them to Spence & Co.?-I sold them to Mr. David Edmonstone. I sold nothing to the company except that quey.

9879. Why did you sell them to Mr. Edmonstone?-They were put down towards my rent.

9880. Then you did not pay your rent at that time through Spence & Co.?-No; I was not fishing for them then. I sold a fat cow to Mr. David Edmonstone since I began to fish for Spence, to pay a balance which I was due him. These are all the cattle I have had to sell.

9881. Have you not sold any other stock except these two cattle for the last five or six years?-No.

9882. Is there any other way you have of getting money except by selling your stock and your fish?-No.

9883. Then you will not have much money passing through your hands?-No, very little.

9884. Will you have £1 in your hands in the course of a year?-I could hardly say, because I don't take particular note of how many twopences or sixpences pass through my hands.

9885. But will you have £1 at a time?-No; I have not had £1 at a time.

9886. Have you had 10s.?-Yes; I have had that.

9887. Do you sometimes sell your winter fish?-Yes.

9888. Do you get money for them?-Yes, if we ask it.

9889. Who do you sell them to?-To Spence & Co.

9890. Are you generally paid in money for your winter fish?-A little money and some goods.

9891. But these are settled for at the time?-They do not enter your account at all.

9892. Would you get the whole price of your winter fish in cash if you asked for it?-I believe I would; but I could not say, because I have never asked the whole of it in that way.

9893. Why have you never asked it?-Because I thought the goods were just the same from their shop as from any other place, and I did not think of asking them for money with which to go to any other place and purchase goods.

9894. Did you think you would not have got it all if you had asked for it in cash?-I cannot say, because I never did ask it; but I think I would have got it if I had asked them, so far as I know.

9895. Are you quite content to go on in this way without getting your money into your own hands?-I should like to get all my own money into my own hands if I could.

9896. You say you think you could have got the money for your winter fish if you had asked it?-I think I could.

9897. Then why did you not ask for it if you would like to have your money?-For the reason I have mentioned: that I thought the goods were the same in their shop as in any other place and therefore I did not ask it.

9898. Then why do you want the money?-Because if I had the money, I would perhaps buy my goods somewhere else, if I thought I could get them cheaper or better.

9899. Have you any fault to find with the quality of the goods you get at their shop?-Sometimes I think the meal is not very good. Flour was sometimes 1s. 3d., and it was not very good.

9900. Did you ever try any other flour?-Yes; I got a little from other places. It was not very much that I could buy, but I got flour at other shops which was of superior quality.

9901. What did you pay for it?-About 1s. 4d or 1s. 5d.

9902. Then that was it little dearer than the flour you got at the company's shop?-Yes; I got it at Mr. Johnston's.

9903. Would you not have got as good flour at the company's shop if you had paid a higher price for it?-Yes; they had good flour at 1s. 6d.

9904. But you cannot complain of them giving you a worse quality of flour at a lower price?-No.

9905. Was the meal the same as you get at any place for the same sum?-It was 1d. per peck higher last summer.

9906. And you said it was not quite so good as you would like?- That was the flour.

9907. I thought you said so about the meal also?-There were some weeks when the meal was really good, and some weeks when it was not so good.

9908. How did you get the money with which to purchase flour at Johnston's?-We sold a few eggs or a little butter, and got it in that way.

9909. You did not pay for it in money, but in eggs or butter?- Yes.

9910. Is that it common way of selling your eggs and butter?- Yes.

9911. You do not get money for them?-No.

9912. Why did you not take the eggs and butter to Spence & Co.'s shop?-Because we sometimes thought of trying another place.

9913. Why did you not take your money for the winter fishing and buy your provisions at another place if you thought you could get them better?-Our earnings from it were very small; and for all the money we had to get, it was not worth while to take it from Spence & Co.'s shop and go to any other place with it, even although we might have got our goods it little cheaper. I think all my winter fishing only came to about 30s.

9914. How far do you live from the company's shop?-Nearly two miles.

9915. Is Johnston's shop nearer to you?-Very little.

9916. Is there any other shop nearer?-No.

9917. Have you ever been asked to fish for any other person than Spence & Co. since they began business?-No.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, MAGNUS HENDERSON, examined.

9918. You are a proprietor near Haroldswick?-Yes, a small proprietor.

9919. You have been resident in Unst all your life?-Yes.

9920. You were at one time engaged in the fishing yourself, and you know the system that is practised here?-Yes, so far.

9921. I presume the system of annual settlements has been one of long continuance here?-Yes.

9922. The fishermen have also for a long time combined the calling of farming with that of fishing?-Yes.

9923. They fish for about four months in the year, and are engaged on their farms for the rest of the time?-Yes.

9924. How has the rent been usually paid to the landlord during the last twenty or thirty years?-Very often the tenants have fished for the landlord; and of course at the end of the year, when their accounts were made up, the rent was taken into account along with other matters.

9925. When they did not fish for their landlord, has there been any arrangement between the landlord and the fish-merchant for the payment of the rent?-Yes. In some cases, I suppose, the fish-curers are bound to pay the rent to the landlord for the tenants who fish for them.

9926. Are you aware whether there has been a written arrangement of that kind between the landlord and the fish-merchants?-I am not aware of that.

[Page 240]

9927. Of course, when the fish-merchant happens to be the tacksman, that is it different case?-It is.

9928. But where the fish-merchant is not the tacksman, is it the practice that he generally settles with the landlord for the rent?-I think so, or he becomes accountable to the landlord for the amount of the rent.

9929. Do you know whether the rent has been paid by means of lines handed to the fishermen or tenants, or whether the merchant just hands a cheque to the landlord for the amount of rent due by all the fishermen?-I am not prepared to answer that.

9930. Has it been it universal practice in Unst, or anything like a universal practice, for fishermen to deal at the shops kept by the landlord or merchant for whom they fished?-That has generally been the practice.

9931. Is there any understanding that they shall go to that shop for their supplies?-There is such an understanding, but they are not compelled to do so. Of course if a man is in debt, and has no means with which to go to another shop, he is very thankful to get his supplies from the merchant, and he has to get them on credit.

9932. And when he gets them on credit, the merchant is safe to get paid by the fish if the men deliver their fish to him?-He gives them credit, and he must take his chance of being paid when the fish are delivered.

9933. I suppose a fisherman here does not wish very often to change his residence and his place of fishing?-Not very often.

9934. But if he did happen to do so would not the fact of him having an account with the merchant in the place prevent him from shifting his quarters?-I don't know that it would.

9935. He might have an account standing against him here, and would he not be bound to pay it?-Yes. He ought to pay it before he shifted to another employer.

9936. And the merchant might raise an action against him if he were to remove?-Yes, and if he could not pay his debt.

9937. Is that it thing of frequent occurrence?-No.

9938. Do you think that men are prevented from shifting to other places, by the fact that they are in debt?-I don't know that they are. I have not known any case of that within my own experience.

9939. Have you known cases where a man wanted to engage with another merchant in the island, or in the neighbouring islands, and who was unable to do so in consequence of being in debt to his former employer?-No such case has come under my notice.

9940. Do you know whether it is usual, when a man does engage with a new employer in that way, that the new employer takes over and becomes responsible for any debt that has been standing in the former employer's books?-They very often do that, but I don't know if it is a general rule.

9941. Have you known cases of that sort occurring?-Yes.

9942. Pretty often?-Not very often, but I have known of some.

9943. Is that done at the request of the fishermen, or is it an arrangement between the merchants?-I should think it was arranged partly with the fishermen and partly with the merchants.

9944. You think the fisherman has no objection to it?-No.

9945. Do you think the condition and the character of the fishermen in this district would be improved if cash payments were the rule instead of these long settlements?-I could not say. I have no doubt some would manage their affairs better if there were cash payments, but some would manage them worse. There are differences in the character of the men here, as everywhere else.

9946. Do you not think that relying on the merchant for supplies if a bad season comes, makes these fishermen a little more careless in running up accounts?-In [som]e cases it does.

9947. They feel that the merchant is anxious to employ them, and that if a bad season comes, and their debt is not beyond all bounds, they are safe to get supplies for the season?-Yes; perhaps some of them look too much to that.

9948. Is it a common complaint that the fishermen do not know the price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season?- Yes, they do not generally make any arrangement for the price before then.

9949. Do you think that is a reasonable complaint?-I don't know. I think that if the thing is conducted on just principles it is a good thing for both parties, because the fishermen have the same chance of being, benefited by a rising market as the merchant; but it been a general thing to make no arrangement as to price until the fish are sold.

9950. Have you known any cases in which the price has been fixed at the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that I have known any particular case of that kind.

9951. Do you think the fishermen would agree to an arrangement fixing the price at the beginning of the season?-I think some of them would; but perhaps some of them would rather allow it to continue in the old way.

9952. Do you think they would not like to fish for so much weekly wages, and so much additional at the end of the season according to the market price?-I don't think they would. I think they would be better satisfied to be paid in proportion to the amount of fish they catch.

9953. Would it be possible to pay them in proportion to the amount of fish they catch, and also to pay them at shorter times?- It would be possible enough to do it, if they came to an agreement as to the price per cwt. for green fish. If that were done, it would be at the option of the fish-curers and the fishermen to make an arrangement for paying at shorter periods.

9954. If they got their money in hand in that way, do you not think that would lead them to be more independent than they are at present?-It ought to do.

9955. Don't you think the settlement with the fishermen is delayed too long after the fishing season is over?-I have no doubt it is delayed long enough; but perhaps sometimes it is a long time before the merchants get paid for their fish, and that may prevent them from making the settlement earlier.

9956. Do you mean that the settlement is delayed until the merchant realizes the price of his fish?-I understand that is very often the case.

9957. So that, in that view, the merchant is really to some extent trading on the fishermen's capital?-Yes, while it is in his possession; but very often he has not a long time of it, because I understand he generally sells his fish on credit, and it is some time before he is paid.

9958. But a man who sells upon credit in that way requires some capital to enable him to carry on his business?-Yes.

9959. And in this case it is really the fishermen's capital that is being traded upon; that is to say, the fisherman has not received payment for his fish, and that money which he ought to have received for his fish is in the hands of the merchant?-But very often a fisherman has taken up the amount of his fishing before the settlement.

9960. He may have done so in goods?-Yes.

9961. Is that the case with most of them?-It is the case with a good many, and some of them perhaps have overdrawn their account.

9962. Then in that case the merchant is really advancing the price of the fish in goods beforehand?-Yes.

9963. Would it not be as easy for the merchant, and better for the fishermen to make the same advance to them in the course of the season in cash?-I suppose so.

9964. Only the merchant has a profit on the goods under the present system?-Of course he has.

9965. And in that case the merchant gets his upon the goods, but the fisherman gets no interest on [Page 241] the money which he lies out of until settlement?-Of course not.

9966. Therefore the merchant has the benefit both of the interest on the fishermen's capital in his hand, and, in addition to that, the profit upon the goods furnished to the fishermen?-Yes.

9967. And besides that, he is safe not to lose upon the transactions of the year, not having the price fixed until his sales are realized?-Yes. The only chance by which a merchant sometimes loses is, that he advances a man further than the man's earnings can meet.

9968. But he can do that or not, as he pleases?-Of course; but there are sometimes cases where the fisherman requires a certain amount of supplies. He cannot do without them, and if the fishing is short then he is not able to meet them.

9969. Does it not strike you as being rather a one-sided transaction, the fisherman gets no interest on his capital, which is in the merchant's hands in the shape of the price of his fish?-It is not very long there.

9970. It is there for four or five months, and in the meantime the merchant is making a profit on the goods?-If the merchant could turn over the fish when he gets them he might be able to pay the men at once, but there is generally a long time between the time when the fisherman delivers his fish and when they are brought to market and the money paid. The fish take a long time to cure, and the summer is often done before much of the fish can be sent to market. Then the merchant generally sells at two or three months' credit to the buyer, and it is that time before he can realize his money.

9971. Do you know whether the merchants in Unst are in the habit of dealing much in stock?-I don't know; there is generally a sale once a year for the cattle, and any one who wishes to go to the sale is at liberty to go. If any one wishes to dispose of his stock privately to any one else, he is quite at liberty to do so.

9972. Who are the largest purchasers at the sales?-I cannot say, for I have not been always there.

9973. Who conducts them?-An auctioneer from Lerwick, Mr. Henry.

9974. Do you think a ready-money system would be any improvement as regards the fishermen?-I think it would. In fact a ready-money system in anything would be an improvement over barter: at least it ought to be, but whether it would or not I cannot say.

9975. Do you think that, in point of fact, the present system is one of barter?-Yes.

9976. I suppose very little money passes into the hands of the fishermen in the course of the year?-There is sometimes a good deal. If a fisherman has money to get he always gets it, so far as I am aware.

9977. That is to say, if he has a balance at the end of the year he will get that?-Yes; and I presume that if a man has not a balance he cannot well ask for anything.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, examined.

9978. You are one of the partners of the firm of Spence & Co., and you have been so since the formation of the company in 1868?- Yes.

9979. Formerly you carried on business in your own name?-Yes, in company with Messrs. Hay & Co. of Lerwick, at Uyea Sound.

9980. Was that a separate partnership from Messrs. Hay & Co.?- Yes. I was manager there, and had a share of the business. It was entirely distinct from their Lerwick business.

9981. In 1868 you entered into partnership with some other gentlemen who had been carrying on a similar business in the island of Unst?-Yes.

9982. And at that time, I understand, you took a lease from Major Cameron of all his property in the island?-Almost the whole of it. There was some of it on lease before, which we don't have.

9983. You have all his property, exclusive of the large farms held on lease before?-Yes. We had two or three small farms let to us on lease as well.

9984. Was that arrangement with Major Cameron embodied in a written lease?-Yes.

9985. Have you got it here?-No. We have a copy of it at Baltasound.

9986. By the terms of that lease, I understand there was no obligation upon the tenants to fish for your firm?-No.

9987. And it was intimated to them at the time that they were at perfect liberty to deliver their fish to any person?-I don't know if it was intimated to them specially at the time; but I think Mr. Walker told them so at one time when we wished him to meet the tenants both in the north and south end of the island.

9988. What was the occasion of that meeting?-Just to explain to them the nature of the improvements, and the connection between us as the tenants and them as the sub-tenants.

9989. The tenants under that lease pay their rents to you directly?-Yes.

9990. And they have no concern with the proprietor?-None.

9991. You are responsible for the rent stipulated by you to be paid?-Yes; for rent, poor-rates, and taxes affecting the tenant.

9992. It is part of your arrangement with the landlord that you shall superintend, and endeavour to get the tenants to carry out certain improvements upon the estate?-Yes; we are bound under the lease to carry out certain improvements.

9993. And a division of the lands has also taken place under that arrangement?-Yes.

9994. Have you proceeded with these improvements to a considerable extent?-Yes. We have got on remarkably well with them; better than I expected when we first took it on. It has been a very uphill job.

9995. Do you find that that improved system of farming is compatible with the men continuing the occupation of fishermen?-I think it is, on the small farms, because the fisherman has a very great deal of spare time in winter, which in former times he did not profitably employ, and he can do it now on his farm to great advantage.

9996. Do you think it would not be possible in Shetland for the men to follow the occupation of fishermen all the year round?-I have given that subject most earnest thought. At one time I thought it might, but latterly I have come to the conclusion that it is not possible. In the first place, we have no fresh fish market here, and it is impossible to get the fish into the south market in a fresh state when they would command a high price. Then, in the winter time the weather is so broken, and the seas round this coast so boisterous, that it is almost impossible to go to the deep sea in boats; and the fish that are caught near the shores in the sounds and bays are in such limited quantity that they would not be nearly sufficient to meet the man's daily wants. From the farm, however, he has sufficient potatoes and milk for his family; and even on the smallest farms he has, I should say, six months meal on the average.

9997. But if the fishermen were supplied with a different kind of boats, such as are used in other parts of Scotland, say of 32 feet keel, such as are used at Wick, could they not go to sea in winter?-I am afraid our fishermen would not take very kindly to these boats.

9998. Perhaps not at first, but would they not do so after a certain period of apprenticeship?-I think I would back six of our men against six of the Wick men in their respective boats, and I would expect our men to come on shore when the Wick men would be drowned. I think the Wick boats are much too heavy in a sea, and they are much more in danger of filling than our light skiffs are. I remember on one occasion, on the north of Unst, when some of our boats were out, and a gentleman's yacht was near them dredging shells, he thought they could never come ashore, and kindly ran down among them, thinking to render the assistance [Page 242] but when he reached them he found they were far drier than he was. He came in with some of his bulwarks washed away, while they got safe ashore.

9999. Don't you think the weather is just as severe where these Wick and Buckie boats fish as it is in this quarter?-I believe it is as severe, but I don't know if the tides and currents are as rapid and strong, because they have a longer stretch of coast. Off any land end, the current is very strong and the sea runs very high, and I think that nearly three-fourths of all the accidents that have occurred in Shetland have occurred in crossing these springs of tide,-strong currents going right against the wind, just inland, as off the point of Unst, or the point of Sumburgh. It is not on the ocean that our boats would be lost, but in taking the land and crossing the tides near headlands.

10,000. If it were not for these dangerous tide-ways, would it be possible for the men to go off to the haaf in winter if they had proper boats for the purpose?-They could go off a certain distance, but the day is very short here, and I don't think they would have much chance with the long lines in a day of about eight hours.

10,001. Has any attempt been made to introduce an extensive system of winter fishing here?-I don't think any attempt has ever been made, except in the spring on the west side at Scalloway and east at Fetlar, where there are spawning beds apparently for the ling. They come nearer into the land there in March and April, and some attempts have been made at these places with our ordinary boats.

10,002. But these are partial attempts, and have not been continued?-They are conducted every year, but some years they are very unsuccessful.

10,003. In settling with your fishermen, I understand you settle with them at the different stations, at Uyea Sound, Baltasound, and Haroldswick, quite separately?-At Uyea Sound the settlements are quite distinct; at Baltasound and Haroldswick they are combined. Some crews are settled for at Haroldswick, but there is only one set of books at Baltasound.

10,004. Can you give me a general idea from recollection, to what extent your fishermen are settled with in goods in the course of the year? Will it be to the extent of one-fourth or one half of their earnings?-Some men may take out not one-fourth, some may take one-fourth, some a half, and some more than the whole.

10,005. Have you ever thought of striking an average?-I have looked into my cash books several times in past years, and when I have summed up the amount of green fish received at the price agreed on and paid, I found that, as a general rule, at settling time I paid in cash, either in rent, which is cash, or cash given into the hands of the fishermen, fully two-thirds of the entire amount of fish coming into my hands.

10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any system by which the settlement should not be made at such long intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled conviction that it would be very much for the curer to pay monthly in cash.

10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much.

10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as may be agreed upon.

10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience, that the fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell, when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man and pay him, which cost us something; but I found that they all declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst and Yell that year was engaged at 7s, per cwt. I made that bargain in December in writing; but when settling time came we could afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction, but if I had done so the fishermen would have thought I had treated them dishonestly.

10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price. I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and said that a bargain was a bargain.

10,011. Did you pay down the 7s. 3d. in consequence of any representation made by them?-No; I did it quite spontaneously.

10,012. Then it was you who did not stick to the bargain?-It was; I improved the bargain for them.

10,013. Suppose it had been the other way, what would have taken place?-I would not have asked the fishermen to agree to take a less price. No doubt there are fishermen who have been in my employ for many years, who, if they knew I was losing by the fish, would not have asked the money; but others would take all they could get, whether it paid me or not.

10,014. But, upon the whole, you think that if that system were introduced by a large firm, there is reasonable prospect of it being carried out?-So far as the fish-curer is concerned, there would be a certain profit to him.

10,015. But do you think it would be practicable so far as both fishermen and fish-curer are concerned?-I think it would pauperize a number of the fishermen because there are a great number of them in debt, and in the transition from the one system to the other they would require to pay up their debts, so far as their means would go, and their dealings would be less.

10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system would not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see how some of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In 1868 the fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst and Yell amounted £1607, which could not average much over £4, 10s. to each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour to the amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash for rents to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and others, £1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223 against the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607.

10,017. Does that return apply to your establishment at Uyea Sound only?-It applies to our entire business in Unst and Yell.

10,018. Besides £1607 from fish, have you any idea what income the fishermen would receive that year from other sources, such as for sales of stock?-Yes. We can produce the rolls of cattle sales, which show what cattle were sold in the spring; and we would have a good idea what amount of fat cattle were sold in the rest of the year.

10,019. In whose custody are these sale rolls?-We have them; we conduct the sales. Then, in the year 1869 the crops were lost, which made 1870 a very trying year on this island, and more especially to Spence & Co. We imported that year about £2300 worth of meal and oatseed, and £173 of potatoes; and we paid the same amount of cash in rents.

10,020. Were these importations distributed among the fishermen and others at your different shops in the island?-Yes, among the fishermen; but we had to supply many who were not fishermen, or see them starving around us.

[Page 243]

10,021. That importation of meal, and the sale of it on credit, would, I presume, leave the bulk of the fishermen considerably in debt?-That year it would; except those who had saved some money.

10,022. But with those who were in debt, that further credit would have the effect of leaving them much more in debt than they were before?-Of course; very much more.

10,023. Is that now in the course of being paid off?-Yes; it is coming back to us very fast, in consequence of more successful fishings and better crops.

10,024. Do you not consider that the necessity under which you lay of importing the meal, and advancing it upon credit to the fishermen, was the result of the system, which has been prevailing here, of long settlements, and the undue amount of credit which has been allowed to the men?-I have here a letter which I wrote in 1860, and which represents my views on that subject, and I may as well read an extract from it 'If we don't give unlimited advances, we are told the fishermen will be taken from us. I have now been nearly twelve months in this place (that was after I came first to Uyea), and have closely watched the system pursued by proprietors and others, and certainly agree with you that it is it bad one; but I know I have no right to make any remarks or trouble you with my views on that subject, further than to state that I cannot see any good that will result from burdening the tenants with debt to the fish-curers. It has been my desire, ever since I knew anything about Shetland tenantry, to see them raised in the social scale, and made thoroughly independent, both of proprietors, fish-curers, and others, and I have felt deeply interested in the -- properties, no doubt from being more in contact with them; but when the poor among them are in terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by forced advances to different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more offered to any fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is not calculated to raise any tenant in self-respect.'

10,025. You speak in that letter of 'forced advances:' what were these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or £3 to get, and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent. That looked very like forced advances.

10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes.

10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe that 13 years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does now.

10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor's ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him from the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him from a fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that purpose, to some other fish-curer who would do so.

10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time when I was at Uyea Sound as a fish-curer trying to engage any men who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt, because I found that many of them required more from the shop than their fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after rent, until I saw that I was advancing to my own ruin.

10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one.

10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord, or by his factor?- It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the money.

10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord or any one representing him?-No.

10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of the men being taken away sometimes.

10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and although they were in your debt?-Yes.

10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no arrangement.

10,036. Why did you not try to secure your debt by arrestment?- Because the proprietor's right of hypothec would cover the man's whole effects.

10,037. But you might have arrested the money in the hands of the new employer?-He might probably have advanced more than the man might catch in the season before he commenced; so that there was nothing to arrest.

10,038. Did you never try to secure your debt in that way?-I have tried it, but have been unsuccessful.

10,039. Have you, within the last 12 years, met with cases of that sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay his rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking me for money, and I told them I could not advance them any further. They would then go away, and come back and tell me that the proprietor's agent or ground officer had informed them that they must get their rent, and that must pay it; and that if I did not do that, they would not be allowed to fish for me.

10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed principally under the ground officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst.

10,041. You did not find that system in existence on other estates?-I only came in contact with the tenants on that property.

10,042. Did no other tenants fish for you up till 1868?-No; except Lord Zetland's.

10,043. Have you been obliged in that way to pay rents for Lord Zetland's tenants also?-No, not for Lord Zetland's.

10,044. Only for the late Mrs. Mouat's?-Yes.

10,045. Did that practice cease when the estates passed to Major Cameron?-They only passed to him at her death last year.

10,046. That was after you had got your lease of the estates?- Yes.

10,047. And since you have had the lease, of course, your control over the tenants has been direct?-Yes.

10,048. And no forced advance of that kind could be required?- No; but, of course whatever the tenant might earn at the fishing, we had still to pay his rent. That was one advance we could not get clear of. The rent was due, and we were responsible for it to the proprietor. The great drawback in the trade is the debts, and the advances given that are never repaid.

10,049. Is it not in your own power to stop your advances whenever you think the debtor is unable to pay more?-No doubt; but suppose a family in the month of January who have no food in the house: there are eight children and a wife, and an aged mother, perhaps, we stop giving them supplies of meal, you can easily guess the consequences.

10,050. If you were to stop their supplies, might they not obtain them by having recourse to some other merchant or fish-curer?- Yes; but it would be upon the same principle-upon credit again.

10,051. And you would lose your debt?-We would lose our debt, and credit, and everything.

10,052. How would you provide for the transition from that state of things to a system in which the payments would be monthly?- I think it would take greater penetration and wisdom than I can boast of, to solve such a ticklish point of political economy. I am afraid pauperism would first increase.

10,053. But would it not be better for the men in the long run?-I don't think it would be any better for the man who has plenty of money now, and a good many of them have that. Such a man comes and buys from us if he wants; and if he does not want, he goes where he likes. If he has got a cow to sell, and we can give him as good a price as another, he will perhaps sell to but he is quite his own master as to where he will [Page 244] sell. But a man with a very small amount of stock, and no credit, and no cash, and no crop after February, would be in a very difficult position until the month of June, when he began to fish.

10,054. Can men during these eight months not get some sort of wages for labour?-The only kind of work in Unst is at the chromate ore quarries; but they can only employ a very limited number of men compared with the population, and those who work in the quarries in winter generally work in summer also. Their men are usually employed for the whole year and there is no room for the fishermen to be employed there.

10,055. Have you any interest in these chromate quarries?-No.

10,056. Is it not your opinion, from the facts you have stated, that the population of the island is rather greater than it is able to maintain?-I think that if the inhabitants of the island were to work the ground they have, they could take food enough out of Unst to feed the 2800 or 3000 inhabitants that are in it.

10,057. Would it not be one effect of the improvements which are being carried out under the management of your firm, to enable the parties to tide over the transition period between the present credit system and the cash system?-Perhaps I may be too sanguine; but my hope is, that if we succeed in carrying through the improvements which have been begun, in six years' time every tenant on the island will be independent of every man, and then he may make his bargain as he likes.

10,058. Do you calculate that it will take six years to wipe out existing debts?-Yes; and that will require renewed exertion on the part of every man. I don't think the idleness of the winter will do it; I think we all want a stimulus.

10,059. Does it not occur to you that this want of energy arises in a great degree from the feeling which the people have, that at the worst they will get credit from the merchant?-There is no doubt that has a very bad effect upon them.

10,060. So that the removal of that sense of dependence might be the very stimulus you desiderate?-It might.

10,061. And your own system of monthly payments would probably be the very best way to apply that stimulus?-I believe it would; and I believe that with average years of fishing, if we could employ the population for six months in winter at profitable wages, we might get into the money system more easily.

10,062. In what way would you suggest employing them for six months at profitable wages?-I don't know; I am afraid the winter fishing cannot be improved.

10,063. And there is no other kind of employment in which wages can be given?-No; unless Government would improve the fishing harbours-that would be a very good way or by giving us more roads. This system, which has obtained so long in Shetland, seems to be natural to the soil; for when the roads were made, the whole of them, except the one in Unst, were made under the superintendence of a captain of the Navy and a captain of the Royal Engineers; and we could not do without credit-I suppose you would call it truck-although the cash was being paid every month. We had to appoint a contractor in every district to supply the workers with meal, and the officer in charge of the roads granted checks to the men.

10,064. Was not that done in consequence of the absence of shops in the district?-No; they had to go to the shop in the district and get the meal. In every district where the works were being carried on we had a contractor engaged to supply meal to the workers.

10,065. Do you mean a man keeping a shop?-We selected a man in the district, and the officer in charge passed orders on him for meal to A, B, or C, and he deducted that from their wages every month, and paid them the balance in cash.

10,066. How long is it since these roads were made?-In 1849 and 1850. It was after the failure of the potatoes in 1847.

10,067. Were the funds for making these roads obtained from Government?-No; Government only gave the superintendence of a staff of sappers and miners.

10,068. Was the work done by local assessment?-No; the money was raised for relieving the destitution in Shetland by the Edinburgh Board, of which Mr Skene was secretary.

10,069. Then that was really an enterprise undertaken for the relief of a temporary destitution?-Yes.

10,070. And the meal was distributed by way of relieving pressing want?-Yes.

10,071. You said you were in possession of the sale rolls of all the sales for some years back?-Almost them all. It was I who first started sales in the North Isles. I began them at Cullivoe when I was there. There never had been any sales until I got the lease of the property from Major Cameron.

10,072. Could you give me a note of the principal purchasers at the sales during the last two or three years in Unst?-I could; but the principal purchasers at the sales for the last two or three years have been ourselves and Mr. Jeffrey, a farmer and cattle-dealer. At the last sales, I suppose, we bought two-thirds of the whole cattle sold.

10,073. Were these generally purchased in order to liquidate an existing debt?-No; a great many of the men-those who have most cattle to sell-have always most cash to get. That has been my experience. A poor man is generally poor every way, and he generally gets into the worst fishing-boat.

10,074. How does that happen?-He has begun poor, and been unfortunate, and, some may think, unlucky.

10,075. But why should he get into the worst fishing-boat?-There is no assignable reason for that, but very often you will find that certain men who have been unfortunate just keep together.

10,076. But the fact of a man being unfortunate perhaps arises from him not being so good a fisherman or so good a man of business as the others?-Yes. He just gets into association with men of the same class as himself, on the principle of birds of a feather.

10,077. But, I presume, you very often do purchase either privately or at these sales, cattle from some of your debtors, and enter them in your account?-Very often. A great many of the cattle purchased at the sales are not paid for until I settle with the men in my district. Some men-not tenants of ours at all, but tenants of Lord Zetland-have been asked to come and take the money after the sale, but have said, 'I am not at all requiring it just now; I only want my money once a year.' They have said that to me more than once this year, so that I could not get clear of the money for the cattle which I bought.

10,078. Were these men running an account with you?-Very little. They come perhaps once a month and see how the account stands, and get perhaps a pound or so in cash.

10,079. A statement was made in Edinburgh to the effect that when a merchant bought a beast from some of his debtors in that way, he had really the fixing of the price himself?-That is a very serious mistake; I must say that twenty years ago that was the case, but I think the first break to that in the North Isles was, as I have already said, my commencing a cattle sale. The very year I commenced the cattle sale, as I can prove by documentary evidence, the price of cattle rose fully one-fourth, and ever since there has been an auctioneer appointed to conduct the sales in Yell and in Unst. I have invariably told every tenant in my district, that if they could do any better with any produce-such as butter, eggs, cows, or fish-than by bringing them to me, they were quite at liberty to do so. I said that to them over and over again.

10,080. Why did you tell them that so often?-Because I had an opportunity of telling it to them every time they came with their produce and asked the price. A man might come with a jar of butter one day, another jar a few days afterwards.

10,081. But did they not know without being told, that they might go where they thought they could get a better price?-I thought they did; but they might [Page 245] think that as we stood in the relation to them of landlord, as well as fish-curer and merchant, we might force them in some way; and I wanted to do away with that impression, both as to the fishing and as to the purchase of produce, because, whatever control we might have had the power of exercising over them, we did not wish it to be exercised, or to have it felt that there was such a power in our hands.

10,082. In point of fact, I suppose that by far the greater number of the fishermen in this island sell their fish to you?-Yes. There is only one boat that does not fish for us-Mr. John Johnston's.

10,083. Are there not some of the crews at the winter fishing who do not fish for you?-I cannot speak so well about the winter fishing, because it is carried on in small boats, and the men take their fish anywhere they like.

10,084. Do they sell their winter fish to you for ready money?- Yes, for ready money, or for goods if they want them, whichever they like. We buy in North Yell just now all winter, and pay the cash just as the men want it, or give them goods.

10,085. There is no Faroe fishing carried on by your firm?-No.

10,086. About how many tenants are there altogether on the estate that you hold in tack on this island?-I think about 150.

10,087. About how many of them are engaged in fishing in your boats?-The whole of them, I think, who do fish for us.

10,088. Do you buy a large quantity of kelp?-I buy almost all that is bought in the islands.

10,089. How many women are employed at that?-They vary very much, because they just do it as they like themselves.

10,090. Is there a separate rent charged in your lease for the kelp shores?-It is included in the whole rent.

10,091. Do you pay a higher rent to Major Cameron under your lease than you receive from the fishermen?-Yes; we pay about £200 more than we receive, but that is for the scattalds and kelp shores, which the tenants have the use of on certain conditions.

10,092. Do you think the scattalds and kelp shores alone are worth that increased rent?-I have often wished that we had never entered into that lease, but when we have entered into it we must try to make the best of it.

10,093. Then you think the scattalds and kelp shores are not worth so much?-They might be worth that if they were taken from the tenants and developed into sheep-walks, but they are not worth that to us.

10,094. Have you not the power of making them into sheep-walks for yourselves?-Yes; but we have not done so.

10,095. The tenants still have the use of them upon certain conditions?-Yes.

10,096. Do they largely avail themselves of that right upon making that payment?-I am sorry to say that we lose about £100 a year by them.

10,097. Do you mean that you do not collect £100 a year which you are entitled to?-I say that when we have charged every tenant under us the full amount of scattald charges, we are £100 short of the rent under the lease, as our books will show.

10,098. Is that loss upon the rents and scattald charges, or upon the scattald charges only?-It is upon the rents and the scattald united. In short, we charge the tenants £1000 for rent and scattald charges, and we pay Major Cameron £1100.

10,099. The kelp is gathered by the women upon these shores and burned by them, and bought by you at so much per ton?-Yes.

10,100. Is the settlement for the kelp generally managed by way of accounts in your books in each woman's name?-No. They generally settled with at the time when they bring the kelp. We may have supplied them with meal or other necessaries while they were preparing the kelp, but as soon as they have prepared the settlement is at once made.

10,101. These supplies are entered in a ledger account under the woman's name during the time the kelp is being prepared?-Yes.

10,102. And then the amount of kelp is entered at the close of that account as settling it?-Yes.

10,103. How many women are so employed?-Perhaps about 120 or 130. I think we have made about 40 tons of kelp from Unst, but we get a good deal from Yell too I think about 20 tons.

10,104. Does the number of women you have given include those in Yell?-No; I think there may be about that number in Unst.

10,105. What price per cwt. do you pay for the kelp?-It is 4s. this year.

10,106. Is it the same price, whether paid in goods or in cash?- There used to be a practice of giving from 4d. to 6d. less in cash than in goods. The reason for that was, that the price allowed was generally the extreme value of the article; but for the last two years we have got 5s. per ton more for kelp, and we have made no difference on the price to the women whether it was taken in cash or in goods. That was the case more especially last year. Almost all that we got from Yell was paid in cash, and paid at the same rate of 4s.

10,107. Did the women take the price in cash or in goods?-They took it almost all in goods, except those from Yell. They could only come over at times when they had about a ton or two ready, and they took back what goods they wanted, and the balance in cash.

10,108. How do you arrange with your beach boys?-We have one man engaged who cures for us by the ton. He finds the hands; we do not employ them.

10,109. You do all your curing by contract?-Yes.

10,110. And you have nothing to do with the payment of the persons employed at it?-I often pay them when the man who has the contract gives me an order to pay. He gives them a line to me to pay them so much and I do so.

10,111. Is that payment made at the shop at Uyea Sound?-Yes,

10,112. Is it made in goods or in cash?-It is just as the case may be. Of course, if the man has taken anything it is deducted; but if he has not taken anything he gets his cash.

10,113. Have the people who are employed in the curing got accounts in your books in their own names?-Yes.

10,114. Do you mean the men employed under the contractor?- Yes; they have their own accounts.

10,115. Do you know how much wages they receive from the contractor?-Not until he gives me an order at the end of the season, and then they are paid. They are paid as soon as the work is over.

10,116. But during the season they are running an account in your books and getting supplies?-Yes, but to as limited an extent as possible. We don't like to give them goods; we rather like to give them money at the end of the season, because if we are liberal in that way, they generally overdraw their accounts.

10,117. But the line you speak of, which you receive from the contractor, is only given at the end of the season?-Yes.

10,118. He does not give them lines when they want supplies?- No.

10,119. Why does he not pay them himself?-At one time, some years ago, I used to give the curer cash to pay his men; but I found I was minus any advances I had given to them in the course of the season, because they did not come back to square up when they got their cash, and yet it was necessary for me to give them some things in order to let the work go on.

10,120. Could you not leave it to the contractor to make these advances?-It is quite optional. There is nothing compulsory in this arrangement at all.

10,121. The men don't need to come to your shop for the advances unless they like?-Not at all. I don't want them; I would as soon pay them in money as goods.

10,122. And the contractor could do so?-Yes. He does so in some cases. I suppose those who bring orders to me are those who want it in that way. Very likely the contractor pays some that I never see at all.

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10,123. Do you suppose that the whole payments he makes are not made through you?-I don't know that they are. There is no arrangement to that effect.

10,124. What is the contract price per ton for curing?-16s., and we supply the implements and materials, and the beach. That is just for his work, putting them from the shores to the beach; and we take them from there to the shipping port.

10,125. In settling with your fishermen, what allowance do you make for the cost of curing the fish per ton of dry fish?-We deduct that from the price we have got for the fish, in estimating what we are to pay our fishermen. That sum includes expense of curing, cost of salt and materials, and removing the fish to the port

where they are to be delivered.

10,126. What other deductions do you make before fixing the sum that is to be divided between you and the fishermen?-We generally make no other deductions. We expect that the £3 should cover everything but I don't know that it does so now, because wages are much higher than they used to be.

10,127. What was the current price paid to fishermen here last year?-8s.

10,128. What was the price of dry fish per ton?-The current price was £23.

10,129. Deducting £3, that would leave £20: was that the sum on which you calculated the division between you and the fishermen?-Yes.

10,130. How do you calculate the price for the green fish?-We calculate 21/4 cwt. of green fish for 1 cwt. dry.

10,131. That would only be 18s. per cwt?-Yes; but we give skipper's fees, and a great deal of perquisites to the crew, which will come to another shilling. The men have lines of their own, and the skipper always gets a fee.

10,132. Then the 2s. extra is intended to cover that?-Yes, and our profit.

10,133. Do you allow yourselves a commission?-Yes; and I think we require it. The hire we take for the boat never covers the price of the boat. I may say that, in my experience, boats which originally cost £20 stand us in £32 when they are worn out, after we have got credit for all the hires charged on them. There is therefore a considerable loss on boats. The hire cannot nearly meet current expenses, much less pay for the original price.

10,134. How do you mean that the boat stood you in £32?-I give sails every second year, and a new sail costs about £2, 10s. Then there is the carpenter's work every year in repairing the boat, and there are oars and everything to be kept up. Taking these things into consideration, the result of the debtor and creditor account of some our boats was that they cost £20 originally, and when worn out they had cost £32.

10,135. What was the hire of these boats?-48s. a year-8s. a man. That was credited to the boat.

10,136. What is the life of a boat?-It is sometimes only a year.

10,137. But that is when she is lost?-No; we sometimes build what appears to be a very good boat, and the carpenter says she is first-class; but when the fishermen take her to sea they find she is very bad, and they throw her on our hands, and we cannot use her.

10,138. Does that often happen?-Very often.

10,139. Then the hiring of boats is a very unprofitable business?- It is; indeed I should be very glad if the fishermen would buy their own boats; and if the Government would assist them in that, it would be a very good thing. The life of a good boat may be about twelve years.

10,140. Is it not an exceptional case where the boat is thrown up at the end of the year?-No, it is very common at the end of one year or two years.

10,141. But when a boat is a good one at first, and pleases the fishermen, she is calculated to last for twelve years?-Yes, and she may last a little longer with increased repairs.

10,142. And the calculation that a boat when worn out costs you £32 is based upon the supposition that she does last for about that period?-Yes; but the £32 is perhaps an exceptional case: that was the highest I ever had in my experience.

10,143. Is the current price of fish according to which you pay your men ascertained by communication with other merchants in Shetland, or is it the actual price, which you get upon your own sales?-There is generally a communication among the curers as to what they think should be the price. Every man states his own opinion freely.

10,144. And communicates the amount of his own sales to his neighbours?-I don't know that he communicates his sales, but he states his idea with regard, to what the price should be.

10,145. Do you sell mostly in this country, or in Spain?-It is chiefly ling that we sell, and they go to the west of Scotland and Ireland. We ship them direct to the Clyde, to merchants in Glasgow and Greenock.

10,146. Have you ever shipped any to Spain?-No.

10,147. Do you know whether the fish shipped there are picked fish?-I understand they are all picked.

10,148. Is a higher price obtained for them than for those sold in this country?-I suppose so; it is chiefly cod that are sent there.

10,149. The men, I understand, have nothing to with fixing the current price of fish?-No.

10,150. Do they sometimes complain that they have not?-I have offered to the fishermen, not since Spence & Co. commenced, but I did repeatedly before, to cure for them at 5 per cent., and furnish everything.

10,151. Were they to sell the fish themselves?-I was to act as their salesman, and disclose all to them if they would give me 5 per cent.

10,152. But they did not agree to that?-No; they thought the safer way was to go on as we had been doing. The fish-curers don't have that love and affection for one another which was described in the evidence in Edinburgh. There is plenty of opposition among them.

10,153. Except at the time when they are fixing the current price?-I cannot say that there is any better agreement then. I cannot agree at all with that part of the evidence which was given before.

10,154. But you always do agree about that to a certain extent?- No; we sometimes do not agree, and we have angry disputations in our letters. We say the price should be a certain thing in our opinion, and Spence & Co. have not agreed with all the fish-curers yet, for we give 10s. per 100 cwts. as an encouragement or bounty, and something to help the men to pay things they have in company at the station; but none of the other curers have given that, and they have been very hard upon us about it. We have given 2s. per. ton more for every ton of green fish we have received than any other curer in Shetland, so that we don't always agree.

10,155. Will you give me a note of your fish sales last year, and the prices?-I will do so privately. [Hands them in.]

10,156. You have now produced to me the lease between Major Cameron and your firm for twelve years up till Martinmas 1880: are all the stipulations about improvements contained in it?-Yes; they are to be, pointed out specially from year to year, but the arrangement is, that there is to be so much expended every year upon improvements.

10,157. But were the regulations for the tenantry separate from this lease and issued to them?-No; the rules and regulations for the sub-tenants are appended to the lease.

10,158. Were these made known to the tenants?-Yes; they were given to them in a different form. They are amended rules to those which were first issued by Mr. Walker.

10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they comply with them, and we can remove them at any time.

10,160. What is the length of the holdings of these who comply with these regulations?-It is the same as our own lease, twelve years from 1868.

10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these [Page 247] regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and rotation of cropping.

10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point.

10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in any case.

10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to me.

10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease, either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there is anything of that sort in it.

10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of the tenants that they are bound to do so?-No.

10,167. You have told them that they are under no such obligation?-Yes.

10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to you?-They do.

10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell so well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at Uyea Sound as we did in any season before the company commenced.

10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for shop goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do so.

10,171. Do you think that having this lease is a facility to you in carrying on your business?-I rather think that in one sense it is the reverse, because at first it was so unpopular among the tenants, in consequence of dividing the farms in the first instance, and setting them on to work and cultivate and drain and clear the ground of stones, and to introduce a rotation of cropping, that it placed us as traders in the island to a great disadvantage, and created an unhappy feeling between the tenants and ourselves. I can say that for the last four years, I have spent about one-thirteenth of my time among them, just going from tenant to tenant three or four times every year, in the south parish.

10,172. Over what portion of the island does this lease extend?-It includes nearly one-half of the island. I have been compelled in some cases to use hard measures with the tenants to get them to alter the crop which they had put in, and to bring the land into rotation. That looked a very severe thing to them; but we stood between two fires, as it were.

10,173. You think it would be profitable for them in the end?-I have no doubt it will, and a good many of them are seeing that now.

10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a power of ejecting them?-Of course it does.

10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes.

10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to deal with another party or to fish for him in consequence?-That may be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the lease gives us it stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and what could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether, and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to see that day.

10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants, except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these rules and regulations?-Yes.

10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes.

10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?- None.

10,180. You spoke of a bounty of 2s. per ton which you allowed your fishermen at settlement: does that not correspond with the present which is made at settlement at other places by way of drinking money?-They say in other places that they give nothing of that kind, but it would correspond with that.

10,181. Do you give the men anything besides as a gratuity at settling time?-No; we give nothing in the way of drink money. They get what is called a midsummer bottle: that is an old custom, and it still continues among all the fishermen.

10,182. Have you had a good deal to do in the hosiery trade?- Yes, I have bought a good deal of it.

10,183. I understand you buy a quantity of worsted from the spinners in Unst and sell it south?-Yes; I generally sell it in Lerwick.

10,184. At what rates do you generally buy the worsted?-We never like to buy anything coarser than we can give 3d. per cut for.

10,185. The weight of that, I suppose, varies?-The weight of what we give 3d. per cut for would be about 6 cuts to the ounce.

10,186. That would be 24s. per lb.?-Yes; but the number of ounces is not a criterion, because the less the weight the higher the price. We have given as high as 7d. per cut for worsted, and that should weigh 14 cuts of 100 threads to the ounce. That would be 8s. 2d. per ounce, or more than £7 per lb.

10,187. Is not that a very high price?-Yes; but we would give cash for any amount of that kind of worsted we could get, or for worsted at 6d. for 12 cuts to the ounce, but very few can spin that. It is a very fine thread.

10,188. Have you known much worsted sold at the rate of £7, 12s. per lb.?-No, not very much, because there are very few who can spin it so fine. It is just like a cobweb.

10,189. What quantity of worsted of that sort would it take to make a shawl of the ordinary size? About 40 cuts?-That would be a small shawl. I have put as high as 70 cuts of that fine worsted into a shawl; but that was a large shawl. The usual size is 25 to 30 scores, made out of 3d. worsted.

10,190. The score refers to the size of the shawl?-Yes; twenty scores is twenty threads or twenty stitches of the needle across from side to side.

10,191. Is the size of the shawl generally measured by the score or by the yard?-It is generally measured by the score when the girl commences to knit it.

10,192. Then a shawl of that size would take 40 cuts of that fine worsted?-No; a 21/4 yard shawl would take 60 cuts of that fine worsted.

10,193. The worsted of such a shawl would cost £1, 15s?-Yes.

10,194. Can you give me any idea what the knitting of that shawl is generally put in at?-The knitting of shawl of that kind should be 25s. to 30s.

10,195. Are these shawls made in Unst?-Yes; I have got a shawl made in Unst that cost £4, and some that cost £3, and between £3 and £4.

10,196. Would the knitting cost as much in Lerwick?-I don't know. I generally think, as a rule, that the knitter ought to get as much for her work as the price of the worsted.

10,197. But it is somewhat less than the price of the worsted in these fine shawls?-Yes.

10,198. Suppose a shawl of which the worsted cost you 35s. and the knitting 25s.-that is £3 altogether: what would that be invoiced for to the merchant in the south?-Perhaps I am not able to give very good information upon that point, because I have always found these shawls to be a part of my stock which it was very difficult to dispose of.

10,199. Do you mean the fine shawls?-No. I have generally got shawls of that sort made upon an order from gentlemen who happen to come down here, and I usually charge them the cost of the work and dressing, and so on; but I have found it a very difficult thing to sell hosiery.

10,200. Is the 25s. which the knitter gets paid to her in money or in goods?-Almost always in goods.

10,201. And you have been calculating now upon the footing that that price was to be paid in goods?-Yes; but if I got an order for the shawl, I would not care whether it was to be paid for in goods or in cash.

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10,202. That is because if you had got the order you would receive a cash payment?-Yes.

10,203. Whereas, if you were selling it to a merchant, you might have to take goods from him for the value?-It is not exactly that, but I might not get it sold at all. My object in dealing in hosiery is more to oblige my customers than because it is an article on which make a profit. A great bulk of the shawls which sell for about 30s. are made from 3d. worsted. That would be 7s. 6d. for the worsted, and the knitting would be 8s. or 9s. in goods, then there would be 6d. for dressing, and that would be about the cost of an ordinary shawl.

10,204. How much would that sell for in the market?-I don't know. I have tried most of the best hosiers who deal in shawls, and I always lost them.

10,205. Do you invoice shawls to Edinburgh?-Yes, pretty often; but I tried to get out of it because we lost a good deal by it. I suppose these wholesale buyers in the south do their largest trade with the merchants in Lerwick, and they don't like to buy from the country people in case it might operate against their own interests.*

*Mr. Sandison afterwards wrote the following letter in supplement of his evidence:-

'I much regret you could not make your examination in Unst more exhaustive.

'Witnesses were asked the effects of the present system on the morals of the people. I am of opinion their morals will compare very favourably with any other county in Scotland; and I will say for my countrymen, that for intelligence and common sense they are superior to many of the same class elsewhere.

'From careful observation and considerable experience, I have come to think that the increase of small shops acts injuriously on the poorest of the people, leading to the practice of deceit between man and wife, mother and child, as well as between class and class. Many families of the poor and indebted fishermen sell their farm produce, butter, eggs, etc., and even meal and corn, out of their own crop, to some of these small shops for trifling luxuries of no real benefit; and, worst of all, most of these small shops sell spirits surreptitiously, it is believed, to a greater extent than the licensed dealer. As a rule, in my experience, the man who sells his produce in quantity to the large buyer or fish-curer is independent, and has cash in hand and bank; while the man who dribbles away his produce through these shops, only giving his summer fish to the fish-curer, is in debt and poverty. While one man can take up £4 to £6 for the one article of butter, in cash at settlement, the other, with as many milch cows, has nothing. The monopoly said to exist here has not reduced these shops; there are fourteen shops in Unst.

'The interests of the small dealer is . The interests of the fish-curer and larger dealer is the people's as much as his own, he must supply all their necessary wants, pay rents, and carry them through with food, at least in unsuccessful seasons; their independence is his gain, their poverty his ruin, by incurring debts, in many cases never paid. This is bad; but in my opinion it is not this, nor barter, call it truck if you like, that has kept Shetland so far behind, but the utter neglect of the soil, and slovenly farming, for the last 100 years. I don't think 100 acres have been added to the cultivated ground by tenant crofters, while in that time the population has increased more than one-third; in place of adding, I am sorry to say that in many cases there has been a most destructive system of reducing going on, by delving down hill for ages until the tops of many fields are wasted to the rock. I have seen places where considerable extents was lost in this way; and for draining and clearing out stones, that was unthought of. For this state of matters, both proprietors and tenants are to blame. Proprietors, in my opinion, have been far too careless of their poperty, not heeding how the crofter farmed, if the rent was paid; and the naturally indolent man reduced more so, by neglecting to increase and improve his farm during the long winter, when he could do little else. Then the breeding and rearing of cattle has been utterly neglected by the small tenants: we have made a right start with that in this island now.

'In all my experience I find the best farmer (I speak of the crofters) is never the worst fisher, and is generally out of debt; while the bad and slovenly farmer, though an extra good fisherman, often falls behind, indeed generally so. Of late I have come to the conclusion that the time spent at the winter fishing is a loss to the crofter, as I do think he can be more profitably employed on his farm, at least until he puts it in proper order. Not to enlarge, I consider the land question a more serious one than the truck for Shetland. Get our crofter fishermen to feel and take an interest in the soil they cultivate; induce them to habits of constant activity on their land, when not fully employed at fishing; get them, by whatever way, to take a pleasure in rendering the waste places of their farm productive of food for man and beast; give them better houses; let them have every reasonable encouragement from their proprietors, with patient continuous oversight by those competent to give direction and advice: I would hope for more from this than all the 'Truck Acts' in the world.

'In place of putting shackles on the fish-curers, who are trying to develop that one branch of our industry, they ought to be encouraged. Much capital is invested in it; and when as much has been done to develop the land as is being done to develop the deep sea, I am sure we will require no 'Truck Act.'

'I would like to say a word on the Rev. Mr. Smith's evidence to price and quality of the goods sold in Unst, but may take another time for that: enough to say just now, that he has yet to try mine.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER JOHNSTON, examined.

10,206. You are registrar of this parish, and you live at Balliasta?-Yes.

10,207. You were formerly a fisherman, and you are acquainted with the way in which the fishing trade is carried on?-Yes. I was acquainted with it when I was at the fishing. It is ten years ago since I left it.

10,208. When you were a fisherman, was there liberty for every man to fish to any one he liked to engage with?-Yes.

10,209. Was there no restriction at all?-No.

10,210. What estate did you live upon?-On the estate of Buness.

10,211. No one there was bound to fish for his landlord or tacksman?-No. When the late Mr. Edmonstone had the fishing himself, I fished for him.

10,212. Were you bound to fish for him?-I was willing to fish for him in preference to any other, because he was my landlord.

10,213. But were you bound to fish for him?-No, he did not hold me bound.

10,214. Might you have engaged to fish for any one else, without any fear of being turned out of your farm?-I might.

10,215. Was that generally the case throughout the country?-I believe it was, so far as I can remember. What it was long before that I don't know.

10,216. You are not engaged in fishing now, or in any business?- No. I have a farm from Mr. Edmonstone.

10,217. Do you deal at the shop at Haroldswick or Balta Sound?- I just deal anywhere I find convenient, because I pay in ready money.

10,218. You don't keep an account?-No.

10,219. Do you prefer that way of dealing?-I do.

10,220. Do you get better bargains in that way?-It may be that there is not much difference, but still have the privilege of choosing where I am to deal.

10,221. Where do you deal in your ready-money transactions?- Chiefly with Spence & Co. at Balta Sound.

10,222. What do you pay there for meal?-I am not, in the way of buying meal. I get it from my own farm.

10,223. What do you pay there for soft goods?-I have not had any lately.

10,224. Do you go to Lerwick for them?-No; but sometimes I send to Lerwick for some tea and other articles.

10,225. Why do you not get your tea from Spence & Co?-I get it sometimes from them, and sometimes from others.

10,226. Why do you send so far as Lerwick for it?-Because we might get it a little cheaper there. We can get very good tea at Lerwick for 2s. 6d. a lb., while the cheapest here is about 3s. or 2s. 8d.

10,227. Is the 2s. 6d. tea that you get in Lerwick as good as the 3s. tea which you get here, or better?-I think it is much about the same.

10,228. Is there anything else you send to Lerwick for?-No.

10,229. What else do you get from Spence & Co.?-Any small thing I require-principally tobacco. I get twist tobacco for 31/2d. an ounce.

10,230. What else do you get?-Nothing worth mentioning.

10,231. Then you buy nothing from Spence & Co. that is worth mentioning except tea and tobacco?-I sometimes buy a little sugar. It is fine white sugar at 6d. a lb. I have also bought sugar from Mr. William Johnston. It was of the same price and quality. I have never got it from Lerwick.

[Page 249]

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM GILBERT MOUAT, examined.

10,232. You are a partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,233. You manage their business at Baltasound along with Mr. Thomson?-Yes.

10,234. You were in business on your own account for a good many years before the formation of that company?-Yes, for eighteen years at Baltasound. I was not extensively in the fishing then, but I had a shop.

10,235. Were you present during the examination of Mr. Sandison?-Yes.

10,236. Do you concur generally in what he said?-Yes; I don't think I could correct or add anything to it, for I think he has given just such a statement as I would have given myself.

10,237. Do you entertain the same opinion about the possibility of an improved mode of conducting business here?-I do.

10,238. You have arrived at the same conclusion with regard to the expediency of a monthly pay if it could be introduced?-Yes; fortnightly or monthly.

10,239. You settle with the fishermen at Baltasound?-Yes; I have settled with the greater number of them there for the last four years.

10,240. In 1867, before the formation of the firm, had you fishermen in your own employment here?-Yes.

10,241. Before 1868 Mr. John Spence carried on business at Haroldswick as a fish-curer?-Yes.

10,242. And, I understand, the accounts of both the Haroldswick fishermen and the Baltasound fishermen are now kept in your books at Baltasound?-Yes. They are transferred from what is called the Haroldswick fisherman's ledger to the general ledger. We enter the amount of advances at Haroldswick into the general fishing ledger, and give the men credit in that ledger for the amount of their fishings.

10,243. Does that general fishing ledger show the amount of balances due at the beginning of each year as well as at the end?- Yes. [Produces fisherman's ledger.]

10,244. Are the shop accounts entered in this book in full, or is the summation merely transferred from another book?-These accounts [showing] are just taken from what we call the fisherman's ledger at Haroldswick, containing the fishermen's accounts for the season.

10,245. How do you do with the fishermen who deal in the shop at Baltasound?-We have a shop ledger in which the details of their transactions are entered. Here [showing], and for eighteen pages back, you will find the Baltasound fishermen. Then here [showing] is the account for the rent, which we pay for the men to the Earl of Zetland. I collect Lord Zetland's rents here for Messrs. George and Arthur James Hay, the factors, and remit them to them when collected.

10,246. Have you the shop ledger?-Yes. [Produces it.]

10,247. Each fisherman has his account separately kept in it?- Yes.

10,248. I suppose few of them care to keep passbooks?-Some of them keep pass-books over the whole season, but others of them do not. Here [showing account in shop ledger] is a sample of the transactions for this season. The amount of that account is carried into the ledger, but the credits due to the man do not appear in the shop ledger.

10,249. Do you generally find the men applying to you for cash early in the year, before the fishing begins?-Not often. If they are requiring a few shillings they may ask for it, and get it, but I cannot say that they ever ask for much.

10,250. I see here an entry on January 5, 'To biscuit, 1s. 2d.:' what quantity of biscuit would that be?-I suppose it would be 4 lbs. of what are called cabin biscuit.

10,251. 'Tobacco, 1s. 1d?' -That would be a 1/4 lb. at 31/2d. an ounce and the man got 1d. off by taking a quantity.

10,252. 'Tea, 11d.,:' is that the best quality of tea?-Yes. We have cheaper tea than that at 8d. and 10d.

10,253. Are Shetland people, I understand, are very particular about their tea?-Yes; and they are very good judges of it.

10,254. I see another entry on October, 28 ' To meal, 2s. 10d.?'- That would be 16 lbs., or half a lispund.

10,255. On October 5 the meal was 5s, 9d., so that there had been a fall between that date and October 28?-Yes. There is often a rise and fall in the price of meal.

10,256. Where do you get your meal?-Generally from Aberdeen, from Glenny & Cruickshank, and Mr. Mess, and Mr. Walker, and Mr. Tulloch, all in Aberdeen. We generally get our flour from Messrs. Tod, Stockbridge.

10,257. I see an entry, 'To meal per meal-book:' is that a separate book which you keep for meal?-Yes; it is a book we generally keep in the cellar, where the meal is weighed out. The meal is marked there at the time the people get it, and then it is entered as a whole in the ledger.

10,258. That is done to save repetition of entries in the lodger?- Yes. This [showing] is one of the accounts referred to by Mr. Sandison, kept by six men on the station as a company, and it is in that account that we give them credit for 2s. per 20 weighs. We put it to their credit there, and then charge the men only for the balance in their accounts.

10,259. How is that credited in their account?-It has not been done yet. The crew have not settled.

10,260. But how would it be entered?-Just for an allowance.

10,261. You take the whole quantity of fish delivered, and calculate what the allowance is upon that?-Yes; on the quantities delivered of cod, tusk, and ling. We don't allow it upon the saith.

10,262. Is the saith an inferior item in the season's fishing?-It has been rather low for some years back until this year, but it has been rather better.

10,263. I see, under January 12, in Andrew Mouat's account, 'Paraffin oil, 5d.' How much oil was that?-About 51/2 gills, I suppose.

10,264. What is the selling price of paraffin oil at your store?-2s. a gallon.

10,265. How many gills are in a gallon?-32.

10,266. So that the price which Mouat paid for his oil was a little more than 2s. 6d. a gallon?- Yes, but the bottles are not all alike. Some may hold 6 gills, and some only 51/2. We generally fill the bottle for 5d. when they bring it to us.

10,267. Where do you get your paraffin oil?-From Young's Paraffin Light Co.

10,268. Do you generally import it once a year or so in the beginning of winter?-No; we generally get 1 or 2 or 3 casks by the steamer now and then, as we require it.

10,269. When did you last get a supply of oil from that company?-I don't know if we had any last season at all; because we got 3 or 4 casks early in the spring, which served us throughout the season.

10,270. What was the price of it?-I think the last we bought from Young & Co. was 1s. 5d. or 1s. 6d.-I think 1s. 5d. per gallon; but then there is double freight to pay on it.

10,271. Where do Young & Co. deliver it?-At Granton.

10,272. What is the freight from there?-I think it is nearly 2d. per gallon; but we have had the oil much dearer from Young & Co. than 1s. 5d.

10,273. Have you ever got any from Rowatt & Son?-We have had oil from a person named Williamson, but not direct. I think the last we got from him was through an agent in Leith.

10,274. Where is Williamson's place?-I cannot say; only saw the name on the cask. We got it from Mr. J.B. Leask.

10,275. Do either of these books which you have produced contain the accounts of persons employed in your curing business?-Yes.

10,276. Do you contract for curing at Baltasound [Page 250] and Haroldswick?-No; we employ the people ourselves; and their accounts are entered generally in the Baltasound book.

10,277. I see an account of Thomas Mouat, beach boy, February 17, 1870, 'To Baltasound shop account £2, 0s. 3d., by fee £1, 10s., by balance to account, 10s. 3d.,' which is carried to next account, and he is charged 6d of interest on it. Then November 17, 'To Baltasound shop account £1, 10s. 8d., by beach fee £1, 15s., by balance to account 6s. 5d.' Has he been working for you this year?-No.

10,278. Has that balance of 6s. 5d. been settled?-No.

10,279. Where is the boy now?-He is working as a blacksmith.

10,280. Do you charge these boys interest when they are in debt?-Yes, we have done so; but only for the last two years.

10,281. Has that been with the view of reducing their balance?-It will rather increase them.

10,282. But has it been done in order to lead them to incur less debt?-I wish it would; but in many cases I believe they cannot help themselves. It is not their wish to incur debt

10,283. Does it generally happen that a beach boy is in your debt at the end of the season?-Not generally.

10,284. I see that John Miller has a balance of 4s. against him in 1870, and a balance of 9d. to get in 1871?-Yes.

10,285. Robert Gardiner has a balance of £1, 19s., against him in 1870. Has he not settled that yet?-No; he is in Glasgow.

10,286. Thomas Abernethy, beach boy, got a fee of £2. 10s., and 15s. for drying fish for 30 days, and he had to receive a balance of 1s. 01/2d. at the end of the year?-Yes.

10,287. John Jamieson, beach boy, had a beach fee of £2, 5s., 39 days drying fish at 5d.-16s. 3d. and there is a balance of 11s. 11d. against him upon his shop account?-Yes.

10,288. Nicol Thomson had a beach fee of £1, and he had a balance of 5s. 3d. against him for 1870, and has since got supplies to the amount of 5s. 61/2d?-Yes. He was only employed for part of the season.

10,289. Was he working for you last year?-No.

10,290. John Harrison has a balance in his favour of 2s. 101/2d.?- Yes.

10,291. Archibald Thomson, in 1870, had a balance against him of 17s. He settled again the day before yesterday, and got a balance in cash of £2, 6s. 31/2 d?-Yes. He was a fisherman last year. 10,292. He had £9, 1s. to get for his fish?-Yes; and he had credit with another boat. He went with one boat for a time in place of another man who was laid up.

10,293. In the account of Charles Sandison, fish-curer, his shop account at Uyea Sound was £3, 2s. 11d. in 1870, and £3, 11s. 101/2d. at Baltasound, and there also a balance of rent of 11s. 6d. charged against him. The balance against him at November 12, 1869, and carried to new account, is £4, 5s. 31/2d. The interest on that is 4s. 3d., and the balance against him on March 18, 1871, was £9, 8s. 51/2d.?-Yes.

10,294. He has since put in £6, 3s. 9d. and £1 to his credit, the first being the price of a cow, and the other a payment made by his son, or carried from his son's account into his?-Yes, by his order.

10,295. That was done with the view of reducing his debt?-Yes; the son was living with the father, and it was done to reduce his father's debt.

10,296. This account has not been settled yet?-No, and this year's rent has not been debited to the account. We have not yet taken it out of the land ledger.

10,297. Has he been working for you?-No. He is an old man, and I think his son intends to take the farm, and to join him.

10,298. There is £4, 12s. 6d. of rent debited to him in 1870. To whom was that rent payable?-To Spence & Co. That is one of the farms included in their lease.

10,299. In the account of Thomas Peterson he is credited with a beach fee of £5, and he had a balance against him in 1869 in 6s. 101/2d. The balance in his favour at settling in 1871 was 1s. 41/2d., but in that year he had been fishing, not regularly, but occasionally, with certain boats?-Yes. He has been fishing regularly this year, but his account is not settled yet.

10,300. This account [showing] contains the total beach fees paid by you in 1869 and 1870, being £91, 12s. 8d. in 1869 and £115, 12s. 8d. in 1870?-Yes.

10,301. What are the entries on page 251?-That is a page which I am using as a cash-book in settling up with the men at the present settlement.

10,302. It shows the amount paid in cash to each man?-Yes.

10,303. The total is £162, 10s. 21/2d., which been paid to thirty-two men?-Yes.

10,304. That does not show the men whose balances were the other way?-No.

10,305. Would there be a larger number whose balances were the other way?-There would be great deal more money out, whether the number of men were larger or not.

10,306. Have you any dealings in hosiery at your shop?-We do very little in that way.

10,307. When you do deal with a woman for hosiery, do you open an account in her name?-Sometimes. Of course if she gets worsted from our shop we have to debit her with it, and see that she returns it.

10,308. Does she generally take out goods for the amount of her knitting?-Sometimes.

10 309. Have you a special book for these accounts?-No, not now.

10,310. Did you use to have a woman's book for them?-Yes; we had a small ledger when we commenced. It was not exactly a woman's book, but the hosiery accounts were generally kept in it.

10,311. Did it contain accounts for butter and eggs?-No; we did not keep accounts for them. Of course if a man comes in with 16 or 20 or 30 or 40 lbs. of butter, that goes to his credit if he wishes it to be settled for in that way.

10,312. You do not take any share in the management of the shop at Haroldswick?-I sometimes take a little.

10,313. I have been told to-day that Mrs. Spence's hosiery purchases are settled for with goods got in the shop there?-Yes.

10,314. Are Mrs. Spence's purchases of hosiery and worsted made by her on account of the firm?-No. She generally sells for herself what hosiery she buys.

10,315. Then, when the hosiery is paid for by means of goods supplied from the shop at Haroldswick, how does that enter the books of the firm?-She is just debited with the amount paid to so and so.

10,316. Are these goods debited to her at cost price?-No, at retail price.

10,317. And the firm has no connection with the purchase or sale of that hosiery?-No.

10,318. Where do you get your supplies of tea?-We get them from different places.

10,319. Do you get any from R. & C. Robertson, Lerwick?-No, I don't think we have got 20 lbs. of tea from them since we commenced business in 1868. We get our tea from Aberdeen, Glasgow, and London.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,320. You are a fisherman at Snarravoe, and hold a bit of land on Lord Zetland's property?-Yes.

10,321. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Mr. Mouat, the commissioner for Mr. Hay, and Mr. Hay is the commissioner for the Earl.

10,322. Does Mr. Mouat enter the rent in your account?-Yes.

10,323. Do you fish for Spence & Co?-Yes. I have fished for them since they became a company, and before that I fished for Hay & Co.

[Page 251]

10,324. Are you quite at liberty to fish for any person you please?-I suppose I am.

10,325. And to deal at any shop you please?-Yes.

10,326. Do you generally deal in Spence & Co.'s shop?-Yes, because I find I am as well served there as I would be at any other place. 10.327. Snarravoe is in the south of the island, and you go to the shop at Uyeasound?-Yes.

10,328. Is that the nearest shop to you?-There are some small shops nearer, but I find that I am as well served at that shop as I would be at any other shop I could go to. I have very little dealings in any other shop.

10,329. Do you keep a pass-book?-I had a passbook at one time, but it was not kept regularly, and I don't have one now. I found that the keeping of it made very little difference.

10,330. Were you ever employed in fishing at a fixed price for the whole fish taken during the season?-Yes; but we were generally paid it little more than the fixed price.

10,331. When were you engaged in that way?-About a year or two years ago by Spence & Co. We engaged at 7s., and we were paid it few pence more-I think 3d. more.

10,332. Did you ask for that?-No; they gave it freely, because the fish turned out a little better than they expected at the time when we made the engagement for the fishing.

10,333. If they had turned out a little worse, would the men have taken less for their fish?-No doubt they would have looked for their bargain; but it would have been just in them to have taken it little less in that case, as well as to get a little more when the price was high.

10,334. Do you think the men in this district would be content to have a bargain of that sort as a rule?-I don't know; because sometimes the markets go up, and the men may get a little more for their fish if the price is settled at the end of the season.

10,335. Therefore you think it is better to have the price fixed at the end of the season, when you see how the markets have turned out?-Sometimes it would be.

10,336. But if the markets were to fall towards the end of the year, might the fisherman not gain something if he had engaged at a fixed price?-He would; and that was the kind of engagements we had in the herring fishing in Hay & Co.'s time.

10,337. Have you gone to the herring fishing?-Yes, but we were always paid a little more than we agreed for. We were paid 10s. or 11s., or more, per cran.

10,338. Were you always successful at it?-Only sometimes. That fishing has been a failure for the last few years.

10,339. But you had no arrangement there except to get so much per cran for all the herrings you took?-That was all.

10,340. Were you running an account in the shop while the fishing was going on?-Yes.

10,341. Don't you think you would be better off to have your money paid down once a month or so, as the fish are delivered, and be able to pay for your purchases as you get them?-I don't know. I suppose the goods are all the same price, whether I pay for them when I get them or not.

10,342. Don't you think you would be able to buy your goods cheaper if you could pay for them at the time?-I don't know.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined.

10,343. Are you a fisherman at Westing?-I was formerly a fisherman, but it is about twenty years ago since I gave it up. I am now curing fish for Messrs. Spence & Co. at Westing.

10,344. Do you cure by contract?-Yes. I get 10s. per ton of dry fish for my trouble.

10,345. Do you employ a number of beach boys and men in the curing?-Yes; about eight. They get fees varying from 30s. up to above

10,346. Do you keep a book in which you enter the payments you make to them?-No. I do not keep any book except a pass-book, in which I enter the fish that are delivered to me.

10,347. Are the wages of these boys paid by you?-Not wholly by me, but I pay them in part.

10,348. But you are their employer, and are liable to them for their wages?-Yes.

10,349. Do they take part of their wages in goods from the shop?-When they want them in that way, they get a line for their money to the shop.

10,350. Do you give them a line when they want goods?-Yes. I give them a line stating the amount that Mr. Sandison is to give them, either in goods or in money.

10,351. Is that entered against you in the books at Uyea Sound?- Yes.

10,352. Before paying them their wages, do you ascertain how much has been taken out by them in that way?-No.

10,353. Then how is the balance of their wages settled? Is it paid directly by the company?-It is paid by the company. I state in my line what fee I give them; and what they may give them over and above that I cannot tell. I am not responsible for that.

10,354. The line you give to the company does not state so much money, 5s. or 10s., that is to be allowed to them in goods or in cash, at a particular time, but it simply states the fee that you have agreed to give them at the end of the year?-It states the balance they have not actually got from me. If they want a certain amount at any time, I give them a line; or if they ask the money from me, then I give it to them, and they get a line to Mr. Sandison for the balance.

10,355. Do you sometimes give them money yourself?-Yes; when they ask for money they get it.

10,356. But more commonly they get a line to Mr. Sandison for goods?-More commonly for the greater share of it.

10,357. How many lines do they get in the course of a year? Is it one or more?-Generally one at the end of the season, when the fish have been dried.

10,358. Then how do they get their goods in the course of the season?-I cannot tell as to that, for I don't know.

10,359. But how does Mr. Sandison know how far to give them credit in the course of the season, before he gets the line from you, which you say you give him at the end?-Mr. Sandison no doubt knows what the amount of a beach fee will be; but I cannot say as to that. I am not responsible for any excess he may give them.

10,360. Then all you do with regard to these out-takes at the shop is to give the boy a line at the end of the season, telling Mr. Sandison what the agreed-on fee was?-Yes, and what balance I have not already paid him.

10,361. And in that line you make no mention of what he has got at the shop, because you don't know?-No.

10,362. In that way of working, is there not a risk of the boy asking more at the end of the season than is really due to him, and of your overpaying him?-Mr. Sandison might overpay him, but I could not.

10,363. Why?-Because I fix the fee, and I know what I have given him, and then I only give a line to Mr. Sandison to pay the balance.

10,364. But he might have got the whole amount of his fee in out-takes from Mr. Sandison, before you gave him payment in cash at the end of the season?-He might; but I am generally well acquainted with the boys, and have confidence in them that they will not run an account of that kind.

10,365. Suppose a boy were to come to you in July, and asked for 5s. in cash, would you be likely to give it to him?-Yes, I would give it.

10,366. Might it not happen that at that very time he had run up an account in the shop for £2 or £3?-If he did so, I would expect Mr. Sandison to make me acquainted with it.

[Page 252]

10,367. Did Mr. Sandison ever give you intimation that a particular boy was in debt to such an amount?-No.

10,368. So that these boys can get a cash advance from you, and credit at the shop at Uyea Sound at the same time?-Yes, if they choose. That might be done for a certain time, but I don't think it could go on very long without being known.

10,369. I suppose it is not very likely that you would give him much money?-He could get it all in money if he asked for it when the work is done, but not before.

10,370. But you would not pay him the money until you had ascertained the amount of his account at the shop?-I never asked that.

10,371. Is your work done about September?-Yes.

10,372. Suppose in September a boy were to come and ask you for the whole of his fee in money, would you pay it down to him?-I have done that.

10,373. Did he tell you that he had no account at the shop?-Yes; and that proved to be the case.

10,374. Has that happened often?-Not often. It has happened once with regard to the whole, and oftener with regard to a part.

10,375. Have you an account at Uyea Sound for supplies to yourself?-Yes.

10,376. The contract price of your curing is entered in that account against your supplies?-Yes; and I am paid the balance in cash.

10,377. And out of that balance you have to pay any balances that are due to the beach boys?-Yes.

10,378. How much money will you require to get at the end of the season, in order to settle with your beach boys?-Generally the money which the beach boys get from me is paid to them during the season.

10,379. When do you settle at the shop?-In December or January. I have not settled yet for last year.

10,380. Therefore you have not settled with the beach boys?-All the beach boys are all settled with in November.

10,381. How much money did you require last November in order to settle with them?-It is Mr. Sandison who settles with them at the end of the season, and I don't know how much money they had to get.

10,382. Do you generally have the same beach boys for some years in succession?-Yes. I have had some for six years, and some for shorter periods.

10,383. What proportion of your payment for curing do you get in money? Do you get most of it at the end of the season?- Sometimes. In some years we have to buy a good deal of meal and other things; but in a year such as the present, when we have had a good crop, I get the most of it in money. Besides, I can get money any time when I ask for it. I have never been refused it within the last twenty years.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HARPER, examined.

10,384. You are a fisherman to Messrs. Spence & Co. at Haroldswick?-Yes. I fish at Norwick, but the books are at Haroldswick.

10,385. Have you a bit of land from Spence & Co?-Yes.

10,386. You pay your rent to them, and deal with them at their shop at Haroldswick?-Yes, I get all my goods there.

10,387. Do you deal anywhere else?-No.

10,388. Why?-For want of money.

10,389. How do you want money?-Because I don't have it.

10,390. Have you had bad seasons?-I never was in debt before I came to Spence. & Co.

10,391. How did you get into debt with them?-From bad seasons in the first place, and from overpriced goods. Meal is over-priced, for one thing. My father has dealt twelve years with ready money; and I have seen the advantage he has got by it, and what I have lost.

10,392. Who is your father?-William Harper: he is a fisherman too; he has been master of a boat for about forty years to Mr. Spence.

10,393. How do you know that the meal is over-priced which you get from Messrs. Spence's shop?-The first meal I got from Spence & Co. was one boll, when I began to fish for them four years ago. My father got one half of the sack, and I got the other: I was charged 27s., and he was charged 24s. 6d.

10,394. Why was that?-I had nothing to give Spence & Co., but my father had ready money. That was in the spring before I commenced to fish.

10,395. You did not settle for the meal until the end of the year?- No.

10,396. Consequently they were long in getting their money from you?-Yes.

10,397. Was it not quite fair that they should get little more for lying out of their money all that time?-Yes; but 2s. 6d. was too much to charge for interest. That was only on meal, but I could make more profit on groceries and soft goods too.

10,398. Have you anything more to say about the meal?-That is the only thing I can recollect about it.

10,399. Have you bought your meal in the same way ever since?- Yes, until last year, when I had as much as could supply myself.

10,400. How many bolls had you to buy in the course of the year?-From 4 to 6.

10,401. Do you think you lost 2s. 6d. a boll on each of these?-I have no doubt I did, for want of ready money.

10,402. What have you to say about the other things?-That was somewhat further back, but at any rate I have been out of pocket with Spence & Co. ever since commenced with them. I was a skipper where I was before, and got a skipper's fee; but the fee which I got from Spence & Co. is not so much as I got formerly. I fished for John Johnston for 11 years. For the first two years I was only a young fellow, and was to be paid according to my fishing. After that, I got promise of £4 of skipper's fee, and when he saw I was getting on so well he always gave me £5 afterwards. Then I was forced-at least I believed I was forced, although I know now that I was not-to go to Spence & Co. from John Johnston, because he got his warning and could not keep me, but had to sell his boats or boat.

10,403. When was that?-In 1867 or 1868. He had two boats, and he sold the one I was fishing in.

10,404. How were you forced to leave him?-Because Spence & Co. got a tack from Mr walker, and I and all the north parish understood that I had to leave my employer and go to them.

10,405. Were you not told that you were quite at liberty to fish either to Spence & Co. or to any other person?-I was never told that until I heard Mr. Sandison say it. I don't think it was told in the north of the island; at least I was not told about it.

10,406. Were you ever told that you had to fish for Spence & Co?-That was rather hinted at.

10,407. Who hinted it?-Mr. Mouat. I was rather hot-tempered, and so was he, and when we were both hot he gave me a hint about that.

10,408. Was that in 1868?-I think so.

10,409. I suppose you conveyed the hint to a good number of others?-Yes. I sat down and wrote a letter to Mr. Walker, telling him what had been said; and I got an answer from him, saying I was to work according to the rules I had in my lease, and that no one could interfere.

10,410. Is there anything more you have to say?-There is nothing particular; but I may say that there are a good many skippers here, and a good many poor men, who will never be asked to come forward, and will never get the chance.

10,411. They may come forward if they like?-They don't care about coming forward, and there are some of them whose stories are far worse than mine.

[Page 253]

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, CHARLES GRAY, examined.

10,412. You are a mason at Balliasta?-Yes.

10,413. Have you been working lately in the chromate of iron quarries?-Not for the last few years. I think it is six years since I was there.

10,414. How were the wages paid at these quarries when you were working at them?-Mr. Mouat was superintending then.

10,415. When did he cease to superintend?-I think it is only about a year back, or two years.

10,416. Was there a change in the company then?-Yes. There was a new company formed then, and new people to work the quarries.

10,417. Who was working the quarries when you were employed there?-There were different agents during the time I was there; but Mr. Mouat was superintendent.

10,418. You don't know who the company were?-I think the company were just the proprietors.

10,419. Were your wages paid to you in cash?-Yes; we got them in cash from the cashier, the late Mr. Charles Mouat,-not the present Mr. Mouat.

10,420. Where were they paid to you?-Sometimes at his house, and sometimes at the vestry, which was a public place.

10,421. But always in cash?-Yes, always in cash, since there was a cashier appointed.

10,422. Did you not sometimes get lines?-No; I never got lines. I cannot say for others, but I never got one.

10,423. Did you never see a line?-Not to my recollection.

10,424. Did you ever hear of lines being given?-I did hear about that, but I could not vouch for it being true.

10,425. What did you hear about it?-That some parties had got lines for part of their wages.

10,426. What were they to do with the lines?-I don't know.

10,427. What did you understand they were to do with them?-I understood the line was to be paid at the place where it was sent to.

10,428. Was that at the shop?-Yes.

10,429. And to be paid in goods?-I did not know that.

10,430. Did you not know whether there was any practice of that sort?-No, I did not know about it myself.

10,431. Have you heard that there was?-Yes; but it is a long time back.

10,432. I understood you had been employed there lately?-No.

10,433. Who is paymaster there now?-Mr. Gardner. I think the men are paid at his house.

10,434. The company have no shop?-No.

10,435. And Mr. Gardner has no connection with any shop?- None whatever.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, GILBERT WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,436. Did you receive a citation some days ago to attend here?- There was a citation handed to me not bearing my name.

10,437. It bore the name of Peter Williamson, storekeeper, Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,438. Is there any person named Williamson who is a storekeeper at Haroldswick except yourself?-No.

10,439. Did you not know that that citation was intended for you?-I could not certify that it was.

10,440. Had you any doubt that it was?-I had some doubt.

10,441. How could you possibly have any doubt when there is no other person of that name there who is a storekeeper?-Because my name in the register is Gilbert, not Peter.

10,442. Did you think that was a sufficient excuse for not attending this Court?-Yes.

10,443. Did you receive a citation to-day?-From a boy.

10,444. From a messenger from me?-Yes.

10,445. Did he tell you he had been sent from here?-He said he got it from Mr. White.

10,446. In reply to that, you wrote saying that you did not think that was intended for you either?-No.

10,447. Or that you received it too late, and that you did not know whether you were bound to come?-Yes. I took witnesses to see what time it was when I got it.

10,448. Are you the principal storekeeper to Spence & Co. at Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,449. Have you anything to do with the purchases of hosiery which are made at that shop?-We don't deal in it.

10,450. At the shop you do not; but Mrs. John Spence, who is not able to attend here to-day, has some dealings in hosiery?-We never see her buy hosiery in the shop, to my knowledge.

10,451. Do you not know that she buys hosiery in her house?-I hear that she buys hosiery, but I never saw her do so.

10,452. Have you ever received lines from her directing you to supply goods to parties from whom she has bought hosiery?-I have received lines from her to supply value for so much, but not stating that it was for hosiery. It might have been for anything.

10,453. Have you any of these lines?-No, I have none.

10,454. In what form are they drawn?-Suppose it was to Ursula Johnston, the line would be, Pay to Ursula Johnston the value of 2s., and it is signed J. Spence.

10,455. Do you always honour these lines by supplying the party named in them with goods up to the value of the sum named in the line?-Yes, with whatever they ask for.

10,456. Do you receive many of them?-Sometimes we receive a few, but not very many; at least I do not consider it very many.

10,457. What would you consider very many?-100 in a week; I would consider that very many.

10,458. How many is it that you do receive?-I never counted them.

10,459. Would there be twenty in a week?-Sometimes not one half of that, sometimes more, and some weeks none at all.

10,460. Is that according as the business is brisk, or the reverse?- So far as I know, it is. I am under the conviction that for a month I have had no advances to pay at all.

10,461. Is there any other way in which parties who sell hosiery to Mrs. Spence, or who you have reason to believe sell hosiery to her, are paid out of the shop?-I don't quite understand the question.

10,462. Have you any other transactions with Mrs. Spence?- None with her.

10,463. Do you know whether any other parties who sell hosiery to Mrs. Spence have accounts at the shop-I could not certify as to that.

10,464. Have you got any of these lines?-I have none of them on my person.

10,465. Have you any of them in the shop?-Yes.

10,466. Were they left there by parties to whom you had supplied goods?-Yes.

10,467. Did you read the citation which was sent to you?-Yes.

10,468. Did you see that you were required to bring with you specimens of lines given or received by any party connected with the company in the purchase of hosiery?-I saw that written there.

10,469. Why did you not bring them?-Because they were not mine to bring.

10,470. Whose were they?-Spence & Co.'s.

10,471. Why did you not ask leave to bring them?-Because the members of the firm were all here.

10,472. Could you not have brought them with you, and asked leave of the partners of the firm here to produce them?-That never occurred to my mind.

10,473. Do you make the same answer with regard to the citation to produce all papers, books, and accounts, [Page 254] showing the nature of the company's dealings with fishermen or knitters?- Yes.

10,474. You could not bring these here without asking leave of the members of the firm to produce them-I could not ask their leave, because they were here.

10,475. Could you not have brought the books here and asked permission then to produce them?-I did not think it was right for me to remove them from the office until I had asked leave to do so. There is one of the books here, the fisherman's ledger, which has been spoken to by Mr. Mouat.

10,476. How was that book brought here?-Mr. Mouat sent for it.

10,477. Why did you come here yourself without asking leave of the members of the firm?-Because I was summoned.

10,478. Was it not just as necessary for you to ask leave to come yourself as to ask leave to bring the books?-No, I came when I was sent for.

10,479. Let me recommend you in future to pay more attention to a legal citation when it is served upon you, or you will get into trouble. I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here, in consequence of the way in which you have behaved.

*The following specimen of the lines issued by Mrs. Spence was afterwards produced:-'Haroldswick, 13th Novr. 1871 Messrs. Spence & Co. pay Andrina Boyne the sum of one shilling. 1s. J. SPENCE' The line is crossed, 'Entd. G.W.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON (recalled), examined.

10,480. Are you agent at Uyea Sound for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I was agent, but there are no members now.

10,481. Have the men ceased to subscribe?-Yes. I think I have not sent up a return for five or six years, not having anything to send.

10,482. Are any of the members of your firm agents in Unst for the Society?-No.

10,483. Do you know anything of a man named Jamieson who was formerly at Uyea Sound, and who was warned out by your firm?- That would be Thomas Jamieson who was at Uyea Sound until three years ago.

10,484. Was he removed from that place shortly after you took your lease?-About a year after.

10,485. He had a shop there?-Yes.

10,486. Is there any stipulation in the lease about shops on the property?-It is so long since I read it that I don't recollect.

10,487. Have you any letters on that subject from Mr. Walker or from Major Cameron?-I cannot tax my memory with receiving any.

10,488. Is it understood that no shops should be opened upon the estate?-That was the understanding.

10,489. And was it in following out that understanding that Jamieson was removed?-Yes.

10,490. Do you know whether a man named John Johnston was removed at Haroldswick in carrying out the same understanding?-I believe he was. He has now a shop near the same place where he was before, on an adjacent estate.

10,491. He removed to Lord Zetland's land?-Yes.

10,492. Is that the case in which the shop was removed bodily across the road?-I believe so, but I cannot speak to that from seeing it.

10,493. I fancy the understanding you mention proceeds upon the footing that you ought, in consideration of the rent you pay to Major Cameron, to have the monopoly of the shop business in the island, so far as he can give it to you?-Yes; that no doubt was the intention.

10,494. And that would be one of the considerations upon which you pay so high a rent?-Yes. I may state that one strong reason why we took the lease at first was, that we believed it was depopulation and sheep farming that was meant, by what we saw taking place in other places; and we also were under the impression that the small tenants could not exist without the scattalds, or if they should have them to pay for; and while, of course, I do not say there was not some selfish design, because we expected to make a living, we also hoped to see them make a living, and we were to try to improve them if we could. However it ends, that was really our design, and the number of small shops which existed stood in the way of that. I have known cases where I would not give luxuries to a man who was in debt, but he would come and get fishing lines from me, which he said he needed, and he has sold them to other shops in order to supply himself with superfluities. I know one case in which I gave a woman a quarter of a boll of meal, when I would not give her either tea or sugar, and she went and disposed of a portion of the meal to a neighbour in order to get tea, she being then irrecoverably in debt.

10,495. Then you mean to imply that this monopoly was secured partly to save yourselves from debts of that sort, and partly to keep the people in their holdings?-Yes; to keep them from being turned out of the island.

10,496. But also partly to prevent them, when they got into your debt, from spending their money and their produce elsewhere?- Exactly. I may mention that North Yell we had only three fishing boats this year, and when I settled with them I paid them over £200 in cash. We had no store there, except a small one at the beach or fishing station, to supply them with the necessaries they wanted and the fishing materials. We don't cure by contract there, but by beach men, splitters, and boys; and I paid every one in cash as being the simplest and shortest way.

10,497. Is there any arrangement between your firm and any other firm or fish-curer, by which you take over the debts of men who change their service?-There is no arrangement. We try to do that if we can, but we find it rather uphill work.

10,498. Have you ever succeeded in getting a merchant who has engaged a man that formerly fished to you, and who left in your debt, to pay up the man's debt?-Since the company was formed we have had no experience of that, and it would be scarcely possible for me tax my memory just now with cases which had occurred before; but I have no doubt there were cases, in which I tried to do that, whether I succeeded or not.

10,499 If a man left Mr. Mouat, for instance, and was in his debt and came to you, would you pay up the debt which he was due to Mr. Mouat?-Yes; but it was only a peradventure; there was no standing rule on the matter, that I am aware of.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, THOMAS ANDERSON, examined.

10,500. You are a fisherman at Haroldswick, and you have fished for some years for Spence & Co?-Yes.

10,501. You have been running accounts with them: during that period, and taking your supplies from them?-Yes; the whole or nearly the whole of my supplies.

10,502. Before that where did you get your supplies?-I had more money to work upon then, and I got my supplies from John Johnston and from Mr. Mouat at Baltasound, and sometimes from Mr. Spence.

10 503 Did you pay them generally in cash?-Yes.

10,504. How does it happen that you have not been paying in cash during the last four years?-Because have a small family, and I have more responsibility.

10,505. Your expenses have been increased, and have not the cash in hand?-Yes.

10,506. Was it for that reason that you were obliged to run accounts at the shop at Haroldswick?-Yes.

10,507. Do you think you are as well served in respect of quality and price of goods as you were formerly?-I get the same quality of goods, but not at the same price. If I were taking cloth or cotton, or any other [Page 255] kind of goods, and paying cash for them, I would get them 2s. 6d. per £ cheaper than if I were having them marked down for a twelvemonth.

10,508. Have you tried both ways within the last two years, to any great extent?-I have not paid cash to any great extent within that time.

10,509. But you have bought perhaps £2 or £3 worth in the course of the year?-Yes.

10,510. Did you get a discount for cash?-Yes.

10,511. Can you tell me the cash price and the credit price for meal?-Not exactly; but I know that if I was buying a boll of meal for cash, I would get it 1s. 6d. or 2s. cheaper than if I was having it marked down for a twelvemonth. I have also got cotton 1/2d. or 1d. per yard cheaper when paying for it in cash than if it had been marked down. If I had cash to the amount of £20 in the course of a year, I am certain I could save £2 upon it at any rate.

10,512. If you were paid for your fish every month as they were delivered, do you think you would be able to pay in cash, and so pay off your debt?-I think I would, if there were good fishing years.

10,513. If you had a bad season again, where would you get your supplies?-We are not to be looking for bad seasons always.

10,514. Nor for good seasons always?-No.

10,515. You have had several good seasons now, have you not?- Yes.

10,516. How do you sell your winter and spring fish?-We can get cash or goods for them.

10,517. How much will you make for your winter and spring fish in an ordinary year: may it be £4 or £5?-Sometimes it may be as much as that, but not generally.

10,518. Could you not make more if you had larger boats?-We have never tried that; but I don't think it.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HAY, examined.

10,519. You are a merchant in Haroldswick?-I was. I sold groceries and some soft goods; but I have given up that business now and turned farmer.

10,520. Were you engaged in fish-curing?-A little. I had one boat at one time but not now.

10,521. With what class of people was your business chiefly done?-Just with the neighbours,-tenants and fishermen.

10,522. Was it a ready-money business generally?-It was that system I liked. I ran some accounts; but I rather liked ready money.

10,523. You were not extensively engaged in fishcuring, and in that way you had no security for long accounts?-No.

10,524. Was that the only reason why you preferred a ready-money system?-I preferred it, thinking the system would work better once it had had a fair beginning.

10,525. Did you find that it worked fairly well with you?-I had not enough experience of it to say that, because the other system had been so long in existence that it was difficult to make an exception.

10,526. You mean that the credit system has prevailed so long, and is so deeply rooted in Shetland, that it was difficult to carry on business in any other way-Yes.

10,527. Have you formed any conclusions on that subject which you are now prepared to state?-My own conviction is, that if a ready-money system was once in operation, and had a fair start, it would work better than the present system.

10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they would husband their means better; and if there were those among them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for them in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty in beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him. At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.

10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.

10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on more advantageous terms?-I think he would.

10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it was absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.

10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for next season?-I should suppose so.

10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one shop?-Yes, it comes to that.

10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, and you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him a reasonable amount of credit for the support of his family?-I would have no hesitation in doing that at all, and I have done it.

10,535. Even under the old system?-Yes, under the old system. I have done so, from a charitable feeling for the men in their necessities.

10,536. Did you think that in such cases you were likely to be repaid?-In some cases I saw the urgency of the case, and I gave the man supplies from sympathy, whether I might be paid for them or not.

10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because if the men were paid their money I think they would feel more independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the most economical way, and thus be better off.

10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so very much into debt with any merchant as they are at present?- I think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in cases of urgent necessity.

10,539. So that, if these very large accounts were not incurred, the ordinary merchants, fairly competing, would not run so much risk?-I think so.

10,540. Do you think the large credits given by the fish-curing firms tend to increase the risk to the small merchant in the country who does not engage in fishcuring?-It may do so. I know that after the years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight which I have mentioned, or emergencies like that, the merchants, such as Spence & Co., and others, had to lay out a great deal of money from the urgent necessity of the case, and to supply families who were almost starving.

10,541. Has it been your experience that it is difficult for small merchants to begin business and to succeed in Shetland?-I cannot say that I have had much experience of that.

10,542. Are you aware that some merchants have lately been obliged to give up their business in Unst, in consequence of the monopoly which had been obtained by a single firm?-I have heard that stated; but I had a lease of the place where I lived, and that did not apply to me.

10,543. You gave up business voluntarily?-Yes. I found a farm necessary for my family, and I thought I would be better with it.

10,544. Do you think there has been a great improvement in the condition of the people within the last twenty or thirty years?-I think there has been.

10,545. Have they got more money in their hands?-I believe the present year has been a very good one [Page 256] for them; but there were some seasons, a few years back, when it was different. A great deal depends upon the returns from the fishing.

10,546. But, apart from the variableness of seasons-because the seasons have always been variable-and taking the state of Shetland now and twenty or thirty years ago, do you think there has been an improvement for the better?-I cannot say there has been much in the way of improvement. Perhaps there has been some.

10,547. Are the people more independent now than they were then?-I cannot say as to that.

10,548. Do you think they are as dependent now as ever?-I cannot say; the thing is so much fluctuating, because it depends upon a year or two of failure in fishing and blight, and that brings them down.

10,549. About twenty or thirty years ago were not many of the people bound to fish for their landlords or tacksmen?-I think they were. That was the case twenty years ago fully more than it is now.

10,550. At that time they were actually bound by the conditions under which they held their land?-I understand so.

10,551. But now they are told they are free?-Yes. They know now that they are at liberty to fish to whom they please; but I don't know if that was the general notion before.

10,552. That is, that they will not be turned out of their land if they comply with certain regulations on certain estate

10,553. But suppose Mr. Johnston were to start half a dozen boats, would he get them manned?-I don't know whether he would get so many as that, but he might.

10,554. Suppose you were to start half a dozen boats, could you get them manned?-I cannot say.

10,555. Has anybody tried that within the last half dozen years?-I am not aware that it has been tried. I believe the men understood that they were bound to fish for the merchants who supplied them with boats, and who gave them supplies for their families, and they did not like to make a change. But now, when the men know that they have their liberty so far, I suppose they would be inclined to go to the merchant who offered them the highest price for their fish.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN SPENCE, examined.

10,556. You are the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.

10,557. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Sandison and Mr. Mouat?-Yes.

10,558. Is there anything which you wish to explain further, or to add to their evidence?-Perhaps I may be allowed to read a letter which I wrote some time ago, and which shows my views and the company's views with regard to the state of matters. It is a letter which was written by me to the other members of the company, and it is dated 29th January 1870. It is as follows:

'Dear Sirs,-I have often spoken to you about adopting a cash system in all our dealings with the people but none of you seemed to think it would do. I of course would not press it in the meantime, though I am always more convinced that it would be a much better system than the present, and we should be gainers by it to a very great extent, if wrought as it should be; and, depend upon it, it will have to come in, and that not long to the time, whether we will or not; so I would advise you to consider over it more than you have done. It will take no more capital, but even less than the present system does.

'If after further consideration, you still think it would not do, could it not then be possible that the price of fish could be fixed at the commencement of the fishing? Be assured that we will be forced into this, whether we will or not; and certainly it would be the proper way. The price of everything else that we deal in is generally fixed or agreed upon when the transaction is made, and why not do so with fish? We do it with winter fish, and what is to hinder us to do it with the summer ones? In no other part of the world that we know of is there such a system as we have. Look at the herring-curers south: I believe herrings would never keep at such a high price were it not that the price is fixed at the first. If we were to do the same with our fish, I have not the least hesitation in saying that we should have them all away and into cash as fast as they could be dried, because we should never keep them on hand when we could get a safe price for them; and the fact that we had got a certain price before we could be safe, would prompt us the more to seek to obtain it, and buyers would come to terms more quickly; indeed, the moment we agreed with the fishermen, we could at same time almost enter into a contract with a buyer or buyers for all our catch. It is often seen what a disagreeable thing it is to keep a large parcel of fish hanging on in the face of a fluctuating market, the chance being oftener against us than in our favour; and fish, in particular, being such a perishing article, the risk is very often great. Many other things could be brought in in support of our fixing the price of green fish when the fishing begins. If you do not think we could begin to it alone, it could only be a trial to correspond with all the other curers, and see if they would not join with Hay & Co., Adie, Anderson, Pole & Hoseason, and any other you know of, and make the proposal. Have a meeting of all the curers, say at Voe, or wherever it might be thought best, and try the thing. I am fully persuaded that circumstances, and that not long to the time, will compel us to it, if not to the cash system.

'Notice around you even and see how things are tending, and see how opposition is creeping in-of course against us. The old system we keep is the cause of it, to a good extent at least. Mr. Sandison should correspond with some of the other curers; or could you not ask Mr. Adie to come to Unst? I think we often spoke of doing that before. I suppose he is friendly enough to us. I am almost sure he would join us in the movement, and Pole & Hoseason would do it, also Mr. Henderson. I trust you will give this matter your consideration, if it should come no further. Shetland is behind it long long way, and a new kind of political economy is needed for it; and why should we not make the trial?- When we formed into a company, everybody was made to understand that there would be improvements in many things- which I hope there is-but we should go forward, and not stand still.'

The whole of us, as a company, were very anxious to adopt this system, but there were a great many difficulties that came in our way which we could scarcely control.

10,559. Were these difficulties raised on the part of the men?- Not exactly. The men were anxious for the change, but they were misled and influenced, and we could not get a fair start. With regard to the old system of what may be called truck, I have looked into my books about forty years ago, and I see that it was the habit of all the fishermen then to prefer putting their produce into the hands of the dealers, and leaving it there till the end of the year for settlement. That has been altered by various things. I object to the great number of small dealers, because I don't think they develop the resources of the island to such a degree as they might; but if a large firm or firms, with the tenants in their own hands, and who are possessed of capital were to set about doing that, the resources of the island could be far more easily developed.

10,560. Would a large firm of that kind, engaged in fish-curing, not make a fair profit, and carry on business in a satisfactory way, if it left the supply of shop goods, draperies, and provisions to other dealers? Is it impossible in Shetland to separate between the fish merchant's business and that of the drapery or provision dealer?-I think it is perfectly possible; and I think it would be the proper plan, that the fish-curing and dealing [Page 257] should be perfectly distinct; but then there would require to be special arrangements made for that purpose, in order to get it into working order for the benefit of all classes.

10,561. I suppose that at the summer stations, however, it is quite necessary that the fish-curer should keep a supply of provisions for his men?-Yes.

10,562. But when the men are in their own homes, would it not be quite possible for them to get their supplies from the ordinary shops supported by private enterprise throughout the country, without having recourse to the man who was employing them?- Of course it would; and if that system was honestly carried out the men would benefit by it, but if the trade was carried on by small shops, looking only to pounds, shillings, and pence, that would do the people injury.

10,563. In what way?-Because it would increase the number of small shops; and, as I say, these cannot develop the resources of the island as they ought to do. They would only be drawing means from the people which they could not apply in a proper way. For instance, take the herring fishing: Messrs. Hay & Co. are the principal herring-curers, and no small dealer could carry on that business in the way they do. They are carrying it on just now at a very heavy sacrifice, year after year, in the expectation that the herring will come; but if Messrs. Hay & Co. were to give up the business, and it were to fall into the hands of small dealers, there would be nobody to receive herrings when they did come.

10,564. Is not the herring fishing carried on only from Lerwick?- It is sometimes carried on from here, when there are herrings on the coast.

10,565. But could not the fish-merchant make his arrangements so as to derive a sufficient profit from the sale of his fish without depending upon the profit that is derived from the sale of his goods?-It would be perfectly possible to make an arrangement of that kind; but the case of Shetland requires special arrangements in consequence of its peculiar position. If the fish could be sent off fresh to the market whenever the men came on shore with them, and we had no more outlays upon them, then there might be a profit; but, as things are now, we must lay in heavy stocks for the incoming year.

10,566. Heavy stocks of what?-Of fishing materials and salt. Spence & Co. must now order perhaps 150 tons of salt; and if we did not make arrangements with the men, that would become a loss.

10,567. But you could make arrangements with the men as early as you please, although the men were not dealing with your shop?- We expect the preference, because I hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement made with Mr. Walker was with a good intention. I think co-operation in the Shetland Islands is far more beneficial than competition. Competition between two poor merchants does not do any good, but an immense deal of injury; and I think that, before it cash system is entered into, a full and thorough investigation should be made by the proprietors and the principal dealers, in order to see how it can be made to work best for the general good. The change can be made without injury to any one, but it must be done a certain way, and that can only be found out by such a special investigation as I have referred to. Shetland is far behind, and I think the adoption of a cash system would be the means of increasing the number of dealers who would draw away the people's means and be a bar against developing the resources of the country in a proper way. Some of these dealers would be rubbed; the people would be poorer; and no dealer even with capital would be inclined to go into the field in such circumstances. If they did, it would need to be under some sort of protective system; or if a dealer with capital came forward he would have every chance of obtaining a monopoly, and he might do great mischief.

10,568. Is there not a monopoly at present?-No, we don't want it. We only ask the fishermen to give us the preference, and any man who has cash to get can get it at any time he likes.

10,569. I don't doubt that; but is there any competition in the shop trade in Unst just now?-There is no monopoly.

10,570. Is there not a monopoly on Major Cameron's estate at least?-It is not a monopoly. I say that what we aimed at was rather co-operation; and if we got a fair chance there was a prospect of the fishermen, if they had money, participating along with us.

10,571. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I should like the men, if possible, to find boats for themselves. It is not our fault that they don't own them.

10,572. Do you encourage them to buy their boats?-Yes.

10,573. Have you not succeeded in that?-Since we have formed the company, we have had a great deal to contend with, and I have been in ill health, and so many enemies have been created against us, that with bad years we have found it difficult to go on; but I hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement we made was for the good of the tenants.

10,574. But in what way has the opposition excited against you prevented the men from buying their boats?-Any change in Shetland, whether for good or ill, is sure to create opposition.

10,575. Has the opposition you have met with been among the fishermen?-No. If they are taken in hand properly, and made to understand matters, I have always found them quite reasonable, but they have been badly influenced.

10,576. Has that influence been exercised by rival merchants?-It has arisen perhaps from want of knowledge, and from parties not knowing how such business should be carried on. It would be our aim to allow the men to receive cash for what they earn, but there are many difficulties which can only be rectified by proprietors and us and the tenants together.

10,577. Do you mean that the proprietor should place the fishermen altogether into your hands?-If the motive is good, I think that should be the case. At least we should prefer to have the tenants to transact with us.

10,578. But would it not be far better that the tenants should stand on their own legs, and not be so entirely dependent on the large companies?-It would be better; but that should be gone into with great caution.

10,579. Don't you think the fishermen are less independent now, when there is only one large firm in Unst to whom they can deliver their fish, than they were when there were three competing merchants?-They may be in the meantime, but that always tends to harm.

10,580. What tends to harm?-Too much competition, because the country is too poor for it. It would be far better for the proprietors to take the men into their own hands to fish than to allow them to go to number of small dealers.*

*Mr. Spence afterwards wrote the following letter to the Commissioner:- 'Lest it may have been thought that in giving my evidence before you I had approved of a monopoly, I now beg to send a written explanation of what I meant, as I afterwards said to you I would 'There is nothing in a dealing way I so much dislike as a monopoly. What I wished to be understood was, that no number of small dealers, however willing, working as they do, can improve Shetland as it would really need; but that in order to develop the resources of the country thoroughly, it must be done by quite different means. There is no doubt but that a change is needed, but it should be merged into with caution, or it will do harm to some class. Shetland appears to be so far behind, that the people must serve an apprenticeship, as it were, to any change for their good. It occurred to me that some good might be done by all the dealers in Unst amalgamating, and by their united capitals and efforts carrying on business and the fishings on at sort of co-operative system; but it did not seem to be in accordance with a free-trade system, and was never tried, though, if properly conducted, I have no doubt it could have done some good. 'In reference to the cash system, you would see in the letter I read, and left with you, the views I have held. We have hitherto, for various reasons found some difficulty in adopting it fully, but we trust, ere long, to get it fairly introduced. One hindrance to us getting it fairly wrought, is owing to the way we are bound to the proprietors for the fishermen's rents. This also appears to those who do not know the nature of the business, to be a monopoly; because while we are thus bound we are compelled to a certain extent, to restrict such men who, from extravagant habits or other causes, cannot preserve their rents. It cannot be supposed that to such [Page 258] men we can hand over money-perhaps to be made a bad use of; and then, when rent time comes, have nothing to get from them, and often not having got any rent for boats and fishing materials. This is one thing in which there is great room for improvement in Shetland. 'As a member of a firm having the principal business in this land, I would beg to state that our mode of dealing seems to be greatly misunderstood by many; and it would be most desirable that an impartial investigation into the books and transactions of every other dealer in the island should be made, when, I have no doubt, matters would look something different. With regard to the fishermen, they are not bound to fish, and they were never told so. I, for one, have urged upon them to improve their farms, so as to enable them to be independent of fishing, which I consider to be a most dangerous employment in such small boats. We pay them cash whenever they want it and have it to get. We do not monopolize our dealings. Could a proper investigation be made in other shops, I can venture to say that, on the whole, we sell cheaper than any other. Besides the other dealers in the island, the steamer runs twice a week in summer, and once in winter, from Lerwick to here; and if the people wish to avail themselves of it, they can get their supplies as easily from there as here. A public roup, advertised all over Shetland, is held once every year for the sale of cattle and ponies, where there is perfect freedom to buy and sell. There are many things we do for the people which are not generally known. I shall only mention one thing, to show what we have to combat with. 1868 and 1869 the fishings were small, and the crops so blighted, that seed and meal had to be imported, and given out on credit to a great many, or else they would have starved. The effects of these two years tell against both the men and us for some time, but such occur occasionally; and it is dealers, standing as we do, that feel it most. We hold, as you are aware, a lease of a large portion of this island, and we are bound to see certain improvements carried out, which, being new here, raises a hostile spirit against us by those who are not inclined to see our island made better. We try to introduce any other improvements that can be thought of, feeling assured that if we can get them accomplished, the people will be in much better circumstances than they are. While we are pressing these improvements, small dealers draw away the means of the people, preventing both them and us from getting so fast on as we would otherwise do; and while we are using all reasonable means to try to get the indolent not to sell what, of their own farm produce, they really need themselves, as is sometimes done, the report is often got up that we want to monopolize the business of the island, when there is nothing of the kind ever thought of by us.'

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER NICHOLSON, examined.

10,581. You are a fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick?-I am.

10,582. You hold land under Mr. Edmonstone of Buness?-Yes.

10,583. And you fish for Spence & Co?-I fished for Mr. Spence, but not for Spence & Co. I have not fished any for three years.

10,584. Do you devote yourself entirely to your farm now?-Yes.

10,585. Why did you give up the fishing?-Because I did not like the sea.

10,586. Were you quite content to fish for Spence & Co. if you had continued at the fishing?-I would have been.

10,587. Where do you get your supplies now?-From Spence & Co. and other places, just where I can make the best bargain.

10,588. Do you work at anything besides your own farm?-Yes, I do day's work back and forward.

10,589. Do you get your day's pay at the time?-Yes; if I ask it, I get it.

10,590. But you do not always ask it?-Sometimes I do not; sometimes it will be two or three days, or a week, or a month, before I get it.

10,591. Who do you work for mostly?-For Mr. Spence.

10,592. Do you keep an account at his shop?-Not much. If I want anything I pay the money for it.

10,593. But you have an account sometimes?-No, I never keep one.

10,594. Is there not an account in your name in his books?-Not very much. I never keep a note of that myself.

10,595. But there is something in his books against you?-Yes.

10,596. And sometimes your day's pay is entered in that book too?-No. I get money for my day's wages when I have asked for it, or if I am working for some time it is entered in the book until I get it, but all the money I have to get is given to me when I ask for it.

10,597. Then you just keep an account the same as fisherman does?-Much the same.

10,598. Only what is put down in your case is a day's pay or a month's pay for work, instead of the price of fish?-Yes.

10,599. Have you been going on in that way for three years?-Yes.

10,600. Do you settle every year?-Yes, once a year, in January or February. I have not settled for last year yet.

10,601. Was there a balance against you at last settlement?-Yes, about 10s. or 12s.

10,602. Therefore you had no money to get?-I had money to get. It is now that I have about 10s. or 12s. against me; but if I wanted goods, and paid the money, I always got them.

10,603. Do you get some money now and then?-Yes, I always get it when I ask it.

10,604. But you don't like to ask for much when you have an account running against you?-No. I just get as much as keeps me.

10,605. Where do you sell the stock off your farm?-I sell them to any man who gives me most for them, but it is few or none that I sell on this island. There are parties who come into the island to buy them, and usually sell to them.

10,606. Why don't you get your day's work paid to you at the time?-I would get it if I asked it.

10,607. Why don't you ask it?-Perhaps because I am not needing it at the time.

10,608. Where do you get your supplies from besides Spence & Co.'s?-At Mr. Johnston's.

10,609. Do you pay the same price there?-Much about it.

10,610. Is there any difference?-Not very much.

10,611. Is there any difference at all?-I don't know; I have never seen much difference.

10,612. Is the price of meal the same at the two places?-I always bought meal in bolls, and paid so much per boll. I bought some from a farmer at Haroldswick, not from Spence & Co., and I paid him 21s. per boll for meal off his own farm. I have not bought any from Mr. Spence this year.

10,613. Is there no oatmeal in your account?-No.

10,614. Was there a balance in your favour at the last settlement after you stopped fishing?-Yes; I think I had £12 to get. I think my shop account for goods that year was about £4.

10,615. Who is the farmer from whom you got that meal?-Mr. Hugh Inkster. I gave him money for it when I bought it.

10,616. Where did you get the 21s?-I got it from some ponies that I sold, and from some money that I had saved before I left the fishing.

10,617. Did you sell these ponies to Spence & Co.?-I sold one to William Manson, and another to Charleson, who comes from Yell Sound.

10,618. Do you sometimes buy your goods elsewhere than from Spence & Co. and Johnston?-I sometimes get them from Lerwick.

10,619. Do you get them cheaper there?-Very little. I never send for them unless I am going there myself.

10,620. Did you ever fish for any one else than Spence & Co?- Yes; I fished for the late Mr. Samuel D. Hunter, Lerwick.

10,621. Were you paid by him in the same way every year?-Yes.

10,622. You never were obliged to fish for any particular person?-No.

10,623. And you never were obliged to take your goods from any particular shop?-No.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, DAVID EDMONSTONE, examined.

10,624. What are you?-I am factor on the Buness estate, and a farmer.

10,625. I understand you have had a great deal of experience of business in Shetland?-Yes. I was nine years in business as a fish-merchant, and I have lived in Shetland all my life, with the exception of a year or two.

[Page 259]

10,626. Were you the writer of a letter which was quoted in the evidence given in Edinburgh, Q. 44,511-Yes.

10,627. Do you still retain the same opinions as are stated in that letter?-I do.

10,628. Do you think it is a correct statement at this time, that the people do not receive in money one-fiftieth of their earnings?-In the way I look at it, I think that statement is correct, because I hold that when there is only a settlement once a year, in January or February, and the man gets his balance then, that is not a cash payment in any sense of the word.

10,629. You mean that it is only a cash payment so far as the balance is handed over to him?-Yes; and that he has not got cash for fish or any other produce during the season.

10,630. You don't doubt, I suppose, that a fisherman can get an advance of cash during the season if he wants it?-No, I don't doubt that.

10,631. Do you think that advances or payments of that nature in the course of the fishing season ought to be made compulsory, or to be required by law?-Yes, I have long thought so.

10,632. Do you think that would be practicable in the fishing business?-I think so most decidedly, so far as my experience goes.

10,633. Have you any opinion to give with regard to the system of combining land-holding with fishing in Shetland?-I think they must be combined to a certain extent. I have thought a good deal and I don't think a man can earn a sufficient livelihood by fishing alone, because the weather in the winter time is so stormy that they cannot often get out for many days, and sometimes for weeks.

10,634. Would that difficulty not be removed to some extent if larger boats were introduced, and the men were trained to the use of them?-I think not. From the strong currents which run round the shore, I think larger boats are not adapted to the coast. In fact, I believe a good Shetland boat, well manned, would go through what a much larger one would not go through.

10,635. Do you know that to be the opinion of the best seamen in Shetland?-I believe it is. For instance, the large boats used in the neighbourhood of Lerwick for herrings have often been lost when the common six-oared boats came safely. These large boats are more unwieldy and more difficult to handle than the small ones.

10,636. At what period are the rents on the Buness estate paid?- At Martinmas.

10,637. Is it necessary to fix the payment at that period, from a consideration of the settling time between the merchants and the fishermen?-Yes. It has always been the habit to pay the rents at Martinmas.

10,638. It is universal in Shetland, I understand, to pay the rents only once a year?-Yes; the tenants have their holdings from Martinmas to Martinmas.

10,639. Can you explain why that arrangement has been made? Is it from anything connected with the fishing?-I think so. The men would then have an opportunity of completing their fishing and getting all the sales made which they have to make, and then they are supposed to be in funds. I suppose that is the reason, but I don't know.

10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during which they are to fish. One reason for that-in fact the only reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore a great number of them will be induced to run a heavy account at the shop, and when we collect the rents at Martinmas we would have nothing to get. If the men were paid in money, daily or weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no such arrangement, but would collect the rents directly from the men.

10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to secure that we are to get part of that money.

10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes.

10,643. Are you aware whether that is a usual arrangement in Shetland?-I don't know. The Buness estate was in tack or lease to tacksmen for twelve or fourteen years before 1868, first to Mr. Hunter of Lerwick, and then to myself. Under that arrangement we paid a certain amount for the estate, and made the best we could of it.

10,644. You took the risk of the tenants paying their rents?-Yes, the entire risk.

10,645. Did Mr. Hunter and you employ most of the men as fishermen?-Yes, most of them.

10,646. Do you think the effect of the present system is to stunt trade, and keep other shops down except those of the fish-curers?-I think so.

10,647. Did you hear the evidence which Mr. Spence gave on that subject?-Yes.

10,648. Do you agree with his opinion that it would be better to have one large monopolist than a number of small shops?-No, I don't agree with that.

10,649. You think that competition would be wholesome?-I think so, if there were cash payments.

10,650. Have you any reasons, within your own experience, for maintaining that opinion with regard to Shetland?-I think, from my own experience, that the people would be very much more independent if they had cash in their hands. They are not entrusted with cash just now, as a general rule. I know they get their balances paid; but they are not entrusted with cash, and therefore they are not independent. They are like schoolboys; they lean upon other people, and I don't think that is a good system. When a bad year comes, they expect that the fish-curer has to advance them meal; and they will tell him that if he won't do it, they won't fish for him again. In that way he must do it; in fact they think he is bound to do it. They have no self-reliance or independence.

10,651. Could they get supplies in any other way if the curer did not advance them meal?-There are very few tenants who have not stock of their own-cattle and horses.

10,652. But these are liable to the landlord for their rent?-Yes; and they are liable to be sold for supplies to themselves.

10,653. Do you think that even in a bad year their stock might carry them through?-I think so, in most cases.

10,654. Is there any restriction on the Buness estate upon the opening of new shops?-None whatever.

10,655. Do you think it is possible for a shopkeeper to prosper in Shetland who is not engaged in the fishcuring business?-I think so.

10,656. Even under the present system?-Yes; because there is a good deal of money among the people, irrespective of the fishing. They have their produce, and they are not compelled to go with it all to the fishcurer. There are several shops in this island, the keepers of which, I believe, are doing very well.

10,657. Do you know anything as to the season at which these shops have the largest sale?-I do not.

10,658. Would it be a fair inference, from what you know of the state of things here, to say that the receipts of these shops are much larger in the spring, when the men have got a little cash at settlement, than they are at other periods of the year?-I daresay they are. I cannot speak of that from my own experience; but I believe that these shops advance a number of the fishermen who are fishing, perhaps, to Spence & Co. or others, and take the chance of getting payment when the men receive their money.

10,659. But that is a chance which comes to nothing, or falls altogether, if the men happen to have run up a large account at Spence & Co.'s shop?-Necessarily so.

10,660. So that these dealers run a considerable risk in giving credit at all?-Yes.

10,661. Do you think a large firm, which is engaged both in the shop business and in the fish-curing business, [Page 260] has a great hold over the fishermen, so as to secure their services for the fishing season?-That depends entirely upon the place and the circumstances. If the firm has control over the men, from having a lease of the lands on which they live, they must necessarily have a great influence over them.

10,662. But may such a control not be obtained merely by them having, a number of the men in debt?-I believe it may.

10,663. Are you aware of such control having been exercised by fish-merchants in Shetland?-I have heard about it, but it is not within my own knowledge. My own experience has been that indebted men and bound men are the most difficult men to deal with, and that a clear independent man is the man easiest to deal with in every way.

10,664. Is there any other general statement which you wish to make with regard to the state of Shetland?-I don't remember any. I would mention with regard to the Buness estate, that we have offered leases to a great number of the tenants, but they don't seem inclined to take them.

10,665. Are you acquainted with the rules which have been laid down on the neighbouring estate of Major Cameron?-Yes.

10,666. Do you know how far the tenants have been adopting them?-I believe they are working into them gradually.

10,667. The lease in that case is rather a short one, is it not?-I think it is too short for an agricultural lease, especially with the obligations they are under.

10,668. Do you mean with regard to peats and scattalds?-No; I mean especially the obligations they are under with regard to improvements.

10,669. There are obligations to make certain improvements, and to uphold and improve the houses?-I believe so.

10,670. Do you think these obligations are a reason why the rules and regulations have not been more generally complied with?-I don't know. Of course it is very difficult to get a people who have been accustomed to a particular system, and who are wedded to their old ideas, to change; but I think the people here are now beginning to see, after two or three years' trial, that it is to be for their own advantage, and that they will go on with it.

10,671. The leases which you offered on the Buness estate were, I suppose, intended to introduce a similar system of improvements?-Yes; but the tenants always seem to think that if they sign a lease for fourteen or nineteen years they are binding themselves. They would wish to be free to go any year they like, but to have the proprietor bound not to turn them off. That, in my experience, is the reason why leases are not popular as a general rule.

10,672. Can you give any information as to the ordinary diet of a Shetland fisherman and his family?-I believe they live very much better than the same class in England or in Scotland, or I should perhaps say more expensively.

10,673. What distinction do you draw between these two things?- They use a great deal of tea and biscuit and loaf, which the same class in Scotland don't use.

10,674. I thought that loaves were generally unattainable in some parts of Shetland?-They are not so in this island.

10,675. Have they not to be brought from Lerwick?-Yes, but they are brought in great quantities.

10,676. Is not oatmeal the staple article of food?-They use it to a great extent; but I don't think they use it in the form in which it ought to be used. I don't think that too much tea and very little bread is good for the working man.

10,677. In what form is the oatmeal mostly used?-I suppose it is used in bread, but I don't know exactly. I don't think, as it general rule, they use porridge, which is the most economical way of using oatmeal.

10,678. Is a large quantity of fish used for the diet of the fishermen?-I believe there is in summer time, and also when it can be got in winter.

10,679. Would you say that that is the principal article of diet along with the oatmeal?-I should say that fish and potatoes were the principal articles of diet.

10,680. Is butcher meat sometimes used by them?-I believe it is very seldom.

10,681. But with fish, potatoes, meal, bread, and biscuits, the population of the island are supplied to a sufficient extent?-Yes.

10,682. And they are more than amply supplied with tea?-I think so.

10,683. Has there been an improvement on the houses within your time?-I think there has. We tried to make the houses, when we were building new ones, better than the old ones were.

10,684. Are new houses upon the estates here generally built by the proprietor?-Always, except when sometimes a man takes a small bit of hill or scattald, and then he will make a small house for himself.

10,685. Is that often done?-Not often.

10,686. Is that the origin of many of the houses now existing?-In some parts of Shetland I think it is, but I don't think it is to a large extent in Unst.

10,687. In Unst the houses are more commonly built by the proprietors?-Yes; because there are not in Unst a great proportion of what are called offsets-places which have been taken in from the bill.

10,688. The island has been longer under cultivation?-I think so.

10,689. Then you cannot speak generally of the character of the house accommodation throughout Shetland?-I cannot.

10,690. Would you think that here it is rather better than in other places?-I think so. Unst houses are generally built 28 feet by 12, and about 7 feet high and they contain two rooms. They are built with stone and clay, harled with lime, and covered with thatch and turf.

10,691. In Unst I suppose the houses now have generally chimneys?-Yes, mostly-one in each house.

10,692. Is it in the middle?-No, it is at one end and many of them have still an open fire at the kitchen end, sometimes in the middle, and sometimes at the gable; but we have built chimneys to some of the tenants in both ends.

10,693. Where there is an open fire, what is the exit for the smoke?-It goes through holes in the thatch left there for the purpose. These holes are left for air, and to allow the smoke to go out.

10,694. Was that the ordinary character of the Shetland houses until lately?-I think so.

10,695. There were no chimneys?-No.

10,696. Are the windows generally glazed now?-Yes; but in many of the old houses they had no windows.

10,697. Do some of these houses still exist in Unst?-I don't know any now, but there may be some for anything I know.

10,698. Are there any in other parts of Shetland?-I have seen them in more remote parts of Northmaven, but that may be a year or two ago.

10,699. You cannot say whether that is a common style of house in other parts of Shetland?-I cannot.

10,700. Have you any observations to make upon the printed evidence that was given in Edinburgh?-I think not.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Rev. WILLIAM SMITH, examined.

10,701. You have been for some time the clergyman of this parish?-For nearly three years.

10,702. During that time you have been a good deal among the people, and you are acquainted with the system that prevails of long payments of wages, and of running accounts?-I am acquainted with that from conversations with the men.

10,703. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that system on the character of the people in general?-[Page 261] I have. I think the present system has a very deteriorating effect upon the character of the people generally. I quite agree with what Mr. Edmonstone has said in that respect. There seems to be a great want of self-reliance, owing to the present system.

10,704. The men are in the habit of looking to the merchants to help them through bad season?-Yes, they are in the habit of looking to the merchants and others.

10,705. And I suppose they are not generally disappointed in that reliance?-Not so far as I am aware.

10,706. But you consider that that is not a wholesome thing?-I think it is not. I have had experience of the same class of people, living under a different system, and I have formed a decided opinion in favour of the cash system of payments as compared with the credit system which is carried on here.

10,707. Was your experience in that matter in Orkney?-Yes; among the same class of people.

10,708. Were the employments of the people of the same character there?-Their employments were similar, to a certain extent. Further, I find very often a want of ready cash among the people, and complaints are often made to me of a want of money for payment of school fees and other matters. I found, in speaking to one of the present proprietors, that his uncle had at one time from £500 to £600 of savings deposited in his hands by his tenantry, but now, so far as is known, there is little or nothing of that kind.

10,709. Do you think there is no saving?-I don't hear of it.

10,710. May it not be that the savings are deposited in another quarter?-It may be, unknown to me, and I have no doubt there is money in possession of many of the people, but of course they endeavour to keep that secret as far as possible; and I think there is a want of confidence between the tenantry and proprietors generally, owing to the present system.

10,711. How has the present system produced a want of confidence between the people and the proprietors?-The cause of that has been already explained in great measure by previous witnesses. There is, as has been already remarked, a monopoly here. There are small traders to whom their money would go, and they don't do what is proper, I think, to the firm who employs them. I have met them bringing goods from these small traders, which they were morally bound to have got from the larger merchants when their names were upon the books of these merchants. Hence there is an endeavour at concealment very often as to what they really have, and a want of proper faith.

10,712. Do you mean that a person who is indebted to one of the larger merchants is tempted to sell some of his stock to other people?-I don't say that he is tempted, but that such cases have often happened.

10,713. You mean that a man often sells his stock, or anything he has to sell, such as butter and eggs, to a small merchant, rather than to the large one to whom he is indebted?-Exactly.

10,714. Does he get money from the small merchant in that case?-I don't know that he does; but the impression is generally prevalent, that they may get goods of the same class from the smaller merchant at a lower price, and I think the present credit system does not enable the merchants who are in business here, to sell articles with the same profit as merchants do elsewhere. I find from my own experience that I can supply myself with the same goods at a less cost by bringing them from a considerable distance south, and by paying the expenses of the carriage, than I can buy them here. I think it would work better for all parties, both proprietors, fish-curers, and tenants, if such a system of money payments as has been suggested could be introduced.

10,715. Can you state whether it is universally the case, that persons in Shetland in the rank of clergyman or small proprietor do obtain their supplies out of Shetland?-That is invariably the practice, so far as I am aware.

10,716. Is that in consequence of a difference in price and quality, or only in consequence of a difference in the price of the goods?- It is in consequence of a difference both in quality and price.

10,717. Do you speak as to that matter from your own experience?-I do.

10,718. Is there any other matter which you are prepared to speak about with reference to this inquiry?-There is one thing to which Mr. Edmonstone referred which I think is of some importance. I think that if proprietors were letting their holdings directly to the tenants, the tenants and proprietors coming into contact as they do elsewhere, and the proprietor evincing in that way a greater interest in his tenantry, the result might be a considerable benefit. For one thing, there might be an improved class of dwellings. I find a great want of proper arrangement in the dwellings here, and a proper division of the sexes, and to that I attribute in a great measure the amount of illegitimacy and immorality which prevails. I don't think the houses which are occupied by the common class of people here are equal to these occupied by people of the same rank of life in other parts of the country. I have seen several houses here which are at present without windows, unless a pane of glass let into the roof may be called such. At the same time, I think the people themselves might do a very great deal towards improving their dwellings, provided they were receiving weekly or monthly wages, as the case might be, in prosecuting the fishing, and if they were encouraged to exercise greater self-reliance.

10,719. Have you known cases in which parties have been led into debt greater than they could liquidate, by the present system of long settlements?-I have. I have come personally into contact with such cases.

10,720. Have the people consulted you in their difficulties?-They have; and I am aware personally of fishermen having contracted debts which their survivors could not possibly liquidate. In the case of men who have lost their lives by accident, I have known that the firm by whom these men were employed have lost considerably: that, I had reason to believe was in consequence of the present system; and it was almost beyond the power of the widows and children to liquidate the debt which had been contracted.

10,721. In such a case, is there no system of insurance existing, by which the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund or some other society, comes to the aid of these widows and children?-I regret that there is not. I am aware that the men have been encouraged to contribute by the agents of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, but they have not availed themselves of it as I think they ought to have done.

10,722. Are there no agents for that Society in the island?-There are two or three of them, two at least. One is in the merchants' office and one is not; there may be others.

10,723. But the men don't take advantage of that?-They do not, to the extent which they ought.

10,724. So that, in the case of a boat accident of that sort, resort must be had, if the widows are destitute, either to poor-law relief or to public subscriptions?-Exactly.

10,725 In another part of Shetland I have had some evidence given with regard to the appropriation of such subscriptions to pay debts due by the fishermen who were lost. Are you aware of any such cases having occurred in Unst?-I have been applied to in that way when I was in charge of funds, but I have refused to make use of the funds for that purpose, because I did not think that, conscientiously, it was my duty to appropriate them in that way.

10,726. You mean that you have been asked to apply funds so subscribed to liquidate a debt due to the fish-merchant?-I have.

10,727. But your opinion was that the subscribers had not intended the fund to be applied for such a purpose?-Certainly it was.

10,728. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I should wish to remark that if a cash system were introduced, it would not only have a beneficial effect generally upon the community, but it would apply to [Page 262] all transactions between the merchants and the people generally, so that no negotiations between the merchants and people should take place unless in cash. I mean to say, that where widows are paid annuities, and where pensioners receive their quarterly or half-yearly allowances, these should be paid in cash. I don't attribute the fact that they are not paid in cash at present to any design upon the part of the merchants at all, but I think it is the result of a system which has been long continued here, and which I think is very much to be regretted.

10,729. Do you mean that any custom prevails according to which annuities of that kind are not paid in cash?-Such a custom does prevail.

10,730. What sort of annuities do you refer to?-I refer to annuities allowed to widows by Anderson's Trust, founded by the late Mr. Anderson, M.P., and I refer to allowances which are paid by the Inland Revenue to pensioners under the paymaster for the northern district of Inverness. I believe that such pensioners do receive payment of their pensions in goods. Of course that may be done by consent of the pensioners themselves. I don't say that it is done by design of the merchants, but I am aware that it does take place.

10,731. Who is the agent in these cases through whom the funds are payable?-The collecting supervisor of Excise at Lerwick.

10,732. Through what channel does he pay the annuities which you refer to in Unst?-Through the merchants, as a convenience to himself.

10,733. He remits the money to the merchants, and the annuities are taken out in goods?-Exactly.

10,734. Are they credited in the accounts which are run by the annuitants?-The annuities are very often taken out to nearly the full extent of what they have to receive before their money comes.

10,735. Are you in possession of that information from the annuitants themselves?-I am. I think it is part of the general system which prevails, to pay in that way. The people have gradually drifted into it, and seem to look upon it as something quite natural and reasonable. They have not been accustomed to anything else. I have also met in with cases of men receiving payment of days' wages by lines upon the shop, instead of receiving a payment in cash and attribute that to the very same thing.

10,736. In these cases where days' wages were paid in goods, were the men working for a farmer, or to the shopkeeper himself?-No, they were working for contractors upon buildings.

10,737. Is it the case that there is sometimes considerable difficulty in making such payments in cash in Shetland from the scarcity of silver money?-I have no doubt there is often some difficulty in that way but I am never at a loss for silver money if I have to make any payments to labourers or others, because I can get a cheque cashed in silver by any small merchant to the extent of £15 or £20 at almost any time. At least I have met with such cases. I have not applied to the larger merchants for cash on such occasions, but I have been offered silver to that extent by a small merchant.

10,738. Would there be any difficulty in getting change of a pound at a large merchant's shop?-Yes, I have met with such a difficulty.

10,739. Why?-From the want of silver.

10,740. Is that because they transact their business to such a large amount by barter?-Yes; I attribute the want of silver, to a large extent, to that.

10,741. Are you expressing that opinion from a single instance, or from a variety of cases?-From repeated instances happening within my own experience in which I have not been able to get change. I have not been able to get change at a large shop, but very frequently I have got it at the smaller shops. The general opinion is that a greater amount of the silver coin is to be found with these smaller merchants than at the larger shops, and in that opinion I quite concur.

10,742. Are you speaking now of what you know to be the general opinion, or of what you have found to be the case in your general experience?-I am speaking of what I know to be the case from my own experience.

10,743. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of this system upon the truthfulness and uprightness of the Shetland character?-I have formed the opinion that it has a very bad effect indeed upon the straightforwardness and truthfulness of the character of the people in this part of Shetland, for of course I have, had no experience elsewhere. I have found among the younger portion of the population generally a desire or at least a tendency, not to be so straightforward as one would wish.

10,744. How does that arise from the system?-I think it arises from it in this way?-Very often a fisherman or his wife may be taking their produce to a small merchant, under the impression that they will get a better bargain there than from a larger merchant; and there is a general desire to conceal what their possessions may be. I have found by experience that I have been imposed upon in one or two instances with regard to that.

10,745. But do you think that has occurred in more instances than would have occurred in any other parish in Scotland?-I do think so. I think that one great evil of the present system arises from the people not feeling the value of what they purchase, because they get it on credit here, and are led to use what the same class of people do not use elsewhere. For instance, they use a great deal of tea and fine flour, and fancy biscuits and preserves, and other things of that kind. I think that has a very deleterious effect upon the people themselves, because it encourages prodigality, and the same earnings would go much further if laid out on different and more wholesome fare.

10,746. Do you think they take these things because they get them on credit?-They get them on credit; and my belief is, they do not feel it so much as if they were paying ready money for them.

10,747. You mean they do not feel it except once a year?-Yes; and I believe they would think more about it if they had to pay for them in ready cash.

10,748. Your knowledge with regard to the payment of annuities and pensions. I presume arises from the fact that you have in many cases to sign a certificate before the annuitant or pensioner is entitled to receive payment?-Yes.

10,749. You have to certify that the parties are living, and that you know them?-Yes.

10,750. Is there any other thing you wish to add?-Not that I remember just now.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ROBERT GRAY, examined.

10,751. Are you a fisherman here?-I am. I fish to Mr. Sandison at the station.

10,752. Where do you live?-I live at Snarravoe.

10,753. You have heard the evidence to-day, and you desire to come forward and make some statement yourself with regard to the advances of meal you have received from Messrs. Spence & Co?-Yes. I wish to say that if I had not been advanced by them in two bad years, I must have starved with my family, because, I did not have the means with which to buy supplies.

10,754. Were you in debt to Spence & Co. at the beginning of the two bad years?-Yes.

10,755. And you continued to fish for them?-Yes.

10,756. Have you got further into debt during late years, or have you cleared any of your debt off?-I have got a little out of debt, because I had some cattle to spare, and I had a bigger fishing; but at the time when I had nothing with which to support my family they supported us and paid my rent too.

10,757. On whose property do you live?-On Major Cameron's property.

10,758. Then you paid your rent to him?-I paid my rent to him until Spence & Co. took me into their service.

[Page 263]

10,759. Who did you fish for formerly?-Captain Cameron kept the fishing when he was alive, and I fished for him, and at other times I just fished for the man that I got the best bargain from.

10,760. But at one time Captain Cameron held you bound to fish for himself?-Yes.

10,761. You now take your supplies from Spence & Co?-Yes; and I could not be better supplied than I have been by them.

10,762. You don't deal anywhere else?-No, except for any small thing which I require; and if I have a penny or so I go into any shop and buy.

10,763. Do you get any cash in the course of the year?-I get it when I ask for it.

10,764. How much have you asked for?-I never could ask for much because I was in debt, and I am in debt yet; but when I asked for a little, I got it at any time.

10,765. I suppose you have some money passing through your hands at times?-It is not very much. I went south some years ago and I had no money, and I wrote to those people to supply my family while was south, and they gave them what they required. 10,766. Is that all you wish to say?-Yes.

Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, recalled.

10,767. Do you wish to say anything further?-Yes. The reason why the big shops have no change is, that they are daily paying for produce and advances to their fishermen, and change is very much wanted. I have often had to issue small checks for want of change promising to pay them when I got the change.

10,768. Is there any other person here who wishes to give evidence or to make any statement? [No answer] Then I adjourn the sitting here until further notice.

.

UYEASOUND: SATURDAY, JANUARY 20, 1872

CHARLES WILLIAMSON, examined.

10,769. You are a fisherman at Cullivoe in North Yell?-Yes.

10,770. How long have you lived there?-I have lived for four years at Gutcher.

10,771. Where were you before?-At Mid Yell.

10,772. Have you been a fisherman in Yell all your life?-No; I have been south at sea half the time, and at the whale fishing.

10,773. Do you do much in the winter fishing?-A good deal.

10,774. You do a good deal more at that than your neighbours?- Yes, a good deal.

10,775. How much will you make for a winter and spring fishing, before the regular haaf fishing begins?-Last winter I made about £12, and in the spring £6.

10,776. Have you made a good fishing of it this winter season, so far as it is gone?-Yes, very good.

10,777. Do you sell your fish as you land them?-No, I salt them as I land them.

10,778. Will you make as good a fishing of it this season as you did last season?-I hope I shall. I have every prospect of doing so.

10,779. You carry on that winter fishing with a small boat?-Yes, with a small four-oared boat which I work with my two boys.

10,780. You think you make a great deal more in the winter and spring than any of your neighbours?-Yes, I have always done that, because I devote my time to it exclusively.

10,781. In fact you are more industrious and courageous?-I think I have been that.

10,782. Do you think it would be possible for a man here to live by fishing all the year round?-I am living by it myself.

10,783. Have you not a piece of ground?-I have a small piece of ground, but it can do very little for me, because I am paying about £12 of rent and rates. I have to buy all my livelihood in the course of the year from my fishing.

10,784. You do not depend much upon your ground?-No.

10,785. Not so much as most of the tenants round about you?-I do not.

10,786. Is that because the rent you pay is higher than is paid by others?-I have a better house than others, and that makes the land higher.

10,787. Do you think that if you had large boats here, such as they have on the east coast, the fishing might be carried on all the winter?-Not the Faroe fishing, or the fishing which is carried on in the summer time. The deep-sea fishing could not be carried on in winter, because there is such a heavy current.

10,788. Do you think that even with the large boats, in which you have a shelter for two or three of the men, it would not be possible to carry on that fishing?-With the large boats we could hardly work the lines in the way we work them now.

10,789. Have you thought of trying that?-I have, and I am thinking of trying it now.

10,790. You are going to make an experiment about it this season?-Yes; I am thinking about trying it now with a large boat, such as are used along the Scotch coast. If I had a boat like theirs, I think I could fish all March and all April and May.

10,791. Do you know whether anything of that kind has been tried before in Shetland?-There has been no attempt made in a boat like that.

10,792. But you believe there may be a fair chance of doing a good business with it?-I should think there is.

10,793. Do you think you could not go out to the haaf with a boat like that in winter as you do in summer?-We would trust more to her if she were decked over.

10,794. Do you think you could manage to get out to the deep sea with such a boat as that in winter?-Yes, we could manage to get there; but the difficulty would be to manage the sailing in of our lines. The way we do just now is to haul them in.

10,795. You mean the difficulty is to take in your lines with the boat sailing?-Yes; the same as they do on the Scotch coast.

10,796. Your practice in Shetland is to haul in your lines while rowing, and never to haul them in while sailing?-Yes; we sometimes set them while sailing.

10,797. But you believe you could learn to haul them in while sailing also?-Yes.

10,798. Are the lines you use of the same kind and the same length as are used on the east coast?-The lines we use are 42 fathoms to the length of line, and we use hundred of these lines.

10,799. Is it long since you were at the whaling?-I think the last year I was there was 1864.

10,800. How were you engaged that year?-I was engaged in Mr. Tait's office, in Lerwick.

10,801. Did you get your outfit from him?-I got my advance; I did not need an outfit.

[Page 264]

10,802. Had you been there before?-Yes, often.

10,803. Had you an account with Mr. Tait that year?-Yes, I had several accounts.

10,804. Was that for your own supplies at home?-Yes; they required a little while I was away.

10,805. I suppose you always had an account with the agent who engaged you for the fishing?-Yes.

10,806. At that time I believe these accounts were generally settled in the agent's office and the amount of your account was deducted from the payment of your wages and the first payment of oil-money?-Yes.

10,807. And you settled the final payment of oil-money at any time that suited you when you were in Lerwick?-Yes.

10,808. Was the settlement of your account made when you landed from the ship?-Yes; if we chose to make it there and then, we could do so.

10,809. But it was very often later?-Yes, pretty often. I cannot say how much it was later. If I came into Lerwick, and the packet was ready to leave, so that I had not time to carry through a settlement then, I would go home, and then I would return in about a fortnight or so, and have a settlement made.

10,810. How was the second payment of oil-money made to you? Was it in cash?-Yes, generally it was in cash.

10,811. Did you sometimes get it in goods?-If I wanted goods I could get them, but I was commonly paid in cash.

10,812. When you were to settle for your first payment, I suppose you generally had some small account standing?-Yes.

10,813. Where was it settled?-In the office.

10,814. Was the office beside the shop?-Yes.

10,815. Was it always with Mr. Tait that you engaged for the whale fishing?-No; I have been out for Mr. Leask too.

10,816. Did both of these gentlemen have their offices in the shop?-Yes.

10,817. When you went into the shop were you generally asked if you wanted anything?-Yes; commonly we were asked that.

10,818. Was that before the settlement or after it?-It was after we had done settling, and when we had money coming to us.

10,819. Had your money been paid to you before that?-No.

10,820. But when you found out the total that was due to you, you were asked whether you wanted any goods?-Yes.

10,821. And you would generally take something else?-I did not take very much myself. I always got the money.

10,822. When you went to settle for your final balance, were you also asked whether you wanted anything?-It was always when I came down again to go to Greenland, or to go south, that I got it.

10,823. At that time you would want some supplies to be sent home?-Yes.

10,824. And if you wanted anything of that kind, it would be set down against your next account?-No, it was set down against the second payment of oil-money, if we had so much coming to us.

10,825. What you have been describing was the ordinary practice during all the years you were at the whale fishing, both for Mr. Leask and Mr. Tait?-Yes, and for Messrs. Hay also.

10,826. Did you sometimes engage with Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

10,827. Do you think it would be better to have your fishing paid by monthly payments, according to the quantity delivered, and at a price fixed at the beginning of the season, rather than to have the long accounts you have now?-I don't know that, upon the whole, it would be any better for myself; and I can only speak for myself. Those whom I have been serving for the last three years have given me money whenever I wanted it.

10,828. But don't you think you would have the money more under your own command if you were paid monthly or fortnightly?-I could not say that I would have it more under my own command, because they give it to me whenever I ask for it.

10,829. I suppose the merchants are always very glad to get you to fish for them?-I suppose they are.

10,830. Are you not about the best fisherman in the islands?-I have heard that said since I started.

10,831 And I suppose you have generally a balance to get at the end of the year above the supplies you have got?-Yes, sometimes.

10,832. Who do you fish for?-Spence & Co.; I have done so for the last three years.

10,833. Do you get all your supplies at Uyea Sound?-Yes, except occasionally when I send down for anything to Lerwick.

10,834. Do you think you get any advantage in price or quality by sending to Lerwick for your goods?-I do not.

10,835. I suppose you get all money if you ask for it?-Yes. 10 836. And you don't require to take any supplies from Spence & Co. unless you wish?-No; I only take meal and oil-cloth, and the like of that.

10,837. But you might get all your pay in money if you wished, and be able to buy your goods anywhere else?-Yes, I could get every cent of my money if I wanted it.

10,838. Is it entirely of your own choice that you deal in the shop?-Entirely.

10,839. Where is it that boats are most commonly lost on the coast of Shetland? Is it at sea or in the sounds?-It is when we come in towards the land. We fish fifty or sixty miles dead off the land, and we will come in within ten or twelve miles of the land before we get into any danger. Then we come in upon the tides.

10,840. Therefore, if you were out at the haaf in your large boats, these boats might live through any storm?-Yes; a large boat could keep outside and not require to come in to involve herself in the tides, but when we have a small boat we are forced to come in.

10,841. A man cannot stay outside in these small boats?-No; the weather is always getting worse, and the sea getting higher and higher on them, and they must run for the laud.

10,842. But with a larger boat you might run out to sea in a storm?-Yes.

10,483. Do you do that sometimes with your small boats, and escape?-Yes.

10,484. You think that is often a better course to take than running for the land in a storm?-Yes; the summer breezes are not very long.

10,845. But do you do that in a winter storm?-In winter we do not go very far off the land in our small boats.

10,846. But in a winter storm with one of the large boats you are to try, you think you may run off to sea and be comparatively safe?- I think so.

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LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 22, 1872

WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.

10,847. You are cashier and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask, merchant, shipowner, and agent in Lerwick?-I am.

10,848. You have been for nineteen years in his business, during which time you have been employed in shipping and discharging seamen, engaging and settling with fishermen, and employing and paying hundreds of labouring people?-I have.

10,849. You are also fully acquainted with the barter system as it prevails in Shetland?-I am.

10,850. I understand you desire to be examined with regard to the Report furnished to the Board of Trade in September 1870 by Mr. Hamilton, as well as on certain questions and answers in the Report of the Commission, of which you have given me a list?-I do.

10,851. Will you give me, in the first place, a general description of Mr. Leask's business? He is, I believe, a proprietor of land to some extent in Shetland?-Yes, and he is also a pretty large proprietor of house property in town.

10,852. What estates does he hold?-He has estates in West and South Yell, Ulsta and Coppister.

10,853. Has Ulsta been long in his possession?-I think about ten years, but I could not exactly say.

10,854. What is the extent of his estates in Yell?-There are about fifty tenants on the Yell property, and the annual value is upwards of £200.

10,855. I understand that in Yell Mr. Leask now carries on the fishing to a considerable extent?-He has only commenced in the past season to carry out the fishing in Yell on his own account.

10,856. Has he a station and shop there?-He has now. He commenced them at the beginning of this year at Ulsta. The shopkeeper is William Hughson.

10,857. How many boats were employed there last year?-Four.

10,858. Are the fishermen bound to fish for the proprietor?-They are not bound to fish. They requested Mr. Leask to employ them last year, and it was at their own request he did so.

10,859. Who was the fish-curer at that station previously?- William Jack Williamson, and James Johnston. Williamson lived at Ulsta, and Johnston at West Yell Sound.

10,860. Was the request you have mentioned from the fishermen to Mr. Leask to employ them a written one?-No; it was verbal.

10,861. How was it conveyed to you?-By the people themselves.

10,862. By how many of them?-By about half dozen or thereby; I cannot state the number exactly.

10,863. Did they come to Lerwick for the purpose?-They always come to Lerwick in November to settle their rent accounts; and in November 1870 a few of them requested Mr. Leask to build boats for them, and they would fish to him rather than to Johnston and Williamson.

10,864. Had Williamson given up business at that time?-No.

10,865. Had he still a shop and curing station at Ulsta?-Yes.

10,866. In consequence of the request made to you by the men, what steps were taken to take over the business at Ulsta?-The business was not taken over at all. Mr. Leask simply built boats for three crews, and employed three masters to obtain crews at Ulsta and West Yell. One boat belonged to Ulsta, and the other two to West Yell.

10,867. Did Mr. Williamson hold premises from Mr. Leask on the Ulsta estate?-Yes.

10,868. He paid rent for them, but he had no lease?-No.

10,869. Did he receive notice that his tenure was at an end?-Yes; he received notice of that verbally two years or year and a half before he had to leave.

10,870. Had he received it before the verbal requisition was made by the fishermen to Mr. Leask that he should take them into his service?-I think so; but I could not be sure.

10,871. Was it in the contemplation of Mr. Leask to commence business there himself, at the time when he gave Williamson the first notice to leave?-I am not quite sure. I think he was not sure about it himself, whether he would commence business there on his own account, or let the premises to another party. The matter had not been fully considered; but I think Mr. Leask had it in contemplation to make some change, because the Yell people were not altogether satisfied with the state of matters at that time.

10,872. And the requisition made by the six fishermen had the effect of bringing him to a decision?-I suppose it had; at any rate it helped. The men were all of opinion that they would be better served by Mr. Leask, than by any person whom he might send there.

10,873. Were the fishermen under any obligation to fish for Williamson?-I don't think they were bound.

10,874. Was there any understanding when he took his premises, that the fishermen on that estate should fish for him?-No. Mr. Williamson was on the estate before Mr. Leask bought it; and after Mr. Leask bought it the men were at liberty to go wherever they pleased, either to fish at home or to go to Greenland, or to go south, or anywhere they liked. They were not bound in any way.

10,875. But when they did go to the home fishing, were they at liberty to sell their fish to any one they chose?-The boats belonged to Williamson, and of course they would be bound to give him the fish.

10,876. But were they at liberty to go in the boats of any other fish-curer?-Yes; they were at perfect liberty to fish for whom they pleased, so far as the landlord was concerned.

10,877. Was there any written lease of the premises to Williamson at any time?-He never had any written lease, so far as I am aware.

10,878. If there had been a written lease at the time when Mr. Leask bought the property, you would have been aware of it?-I think so.

10,879. It would have come into your hands along with the other writings relative to the estate?-Yes.

10,880. Either before or after the application of the West Yell tenants to Mr. Leask, was any intimation made to the rest of the tenants on that estate, or to the whole of them, that he (Mr. Leask) was about to open a shop there himself, and to receive fish?-The men who made the representation to Mr. Leask were given to understand that he would build boats for them; and when they went home they spread the report that Mr. Leask intended to do that.

10,881. Was any written intimation made to the tenants to that effect?-None that I know of.

10,882. Or any verbal intimation other than you have now mentioned?-The masters of the boats were to go and engage their own crews. We appointed masters, and they went among the tenants to engage whom they could get.

10,883. What instructions were given to the masters?-They were engaged on the same terms as usual, and they were to be paid in the same way.

10,884. But what instructions were given to them about telling the tenants?-There were no special instructions given at all.

[Page 266]

10,885. Were they desired to inform the tenants that Mr. Leask was undertaking the fishing himself, and that he expected the tenants to engage in his boats' crews?-At that time Mr. Leask could get more men amongst his tenants than he could employ, and there was no need for any pressure. More men were anxious to go than he had boats for at that time.

10,886. Had you any correspondence with Mr. Williamson about him leaving Ulsta?-Yes, a very long correspondence, and rather an amusing one. He implored Mr. Leask to allow him to remain for another year, as his business was so extensive that he could not wind it up in so short a time.

10,887. What was Mr. Leask's objection to allow him to remain?-He required the premises as a dwellinghouse for the incoming man, William Hughson; and of course it would not do to have opposition.

10,888. But he had made no arrangements for that at the time when Williamson was requested to prepare for removal?-He had not.

10,889. Then when was the correspondence? Was it when Williamson first got the notice or afterwards?-It was not until long afterwards. I think Williamson was of opinion that Mr. Leask would not remove him, and he trusted to that until the very last. I think he had some idea of getting the new premises, notwithstanding what had passed.

10,890. Were new premises built?-Yes, they were built last year. They were begun in June and only completed in December 1871.

10,891. Was Williamson still carrying on the fishing in 1871 while these new premises were being built?-Yes. He was fishing and carrying on the business the same as before.

10,892. How many men had he fishing for him last year at Ulsta?-I think he had about the same number of boats that he had formerly.

10,893. And he still had the same premises?-He occupied the same premises all along. The premises which Mr. Leask is occupying now for business purposes are altogether new. Williamson continued to occupy the old premises until November 1871, when he had to leave.

10,894. Where did he manage to get fishermen when Mr. Leask had put on three new boats?-I think he got some from Mr. M'Queen's estate, and also some of Mr. Leask's own tenants.

10,895. Does Mr. Leask intend to put on a larger number of boats this year?-I think he intends to put on one or two more.

10,896. But the boats' crews that he employed last year had formerly been in the employment of Williamson and Johnston?- Yes.

10,897. Is Johnston still carrying on business?-Yes, he is carrying on business at Sound, in West Yell, where he has a small property.

10,898. Do you know how many boats he has?-I think he has two but I am not sure. Some of Mr. Leask's tenants fished for Johnston last year also.

10,899. Will Mr. Leask's tenants be allowed to fish for Johnston and Williamson in future?-I don't think they would do so if Mr. Leask would give them employment.

10,900. But will they be allowed to fish for any other than Mr. Leask?-I don't think Mr. Leask would force any one to fish for him.

10,901. The tenants have received no intimation to the contrary?- No.

10,902. And no hint?-No hint whatever. In fact, there were tenants applying in November last for new boats, and requesting Mr. Leask to build new boats for them, because there are a good many men who would like to be employed by him, in preference to being employed by Johnston or any other body.

10,903. Do you know whether many of the men were in debt to Williamson when he left Ulsta?-I don't know.

10,904. Was that one of the reasons why Williamson was anxious not to quit in a hurry?-He alleged that reason; but I am of opinion that there were not many of them in debt.

10,905. Did he ask you to relieve him of any of these debts?- Never.

10,906. Do you suppose he has any chance of recovering any debts that may exist now?-Certainly he has. The men have all got effects of some kind or another, so that he may easily take them into court and recover what they are due him. They are all in very good circumstances; there are none of them who could not pay their debts.

10,907. Has Mr. Leask any property in Sandsting?-Yes; he has the property of Sand and Inner Sand. There are between 40 and 50 tenants upon it.

10,908. Are most of them engaged in the summer fishing?-A good many of them are. Some of them fish for Garriock & Co., and some for Mr. Leask, and I think some for Charles Nicholson.

10,909. Is that property in the south side of the parish?-Yes; it is near Reawick.

10,910. Has Mr. Leask any station in that district?-No.

10,911. Then where do they fish for him?-They go in some of his vessels to the Faroe fishing. He has no home-fishing station in Sandsting.

10,912. Are they at liberty to go to the home fishing or to the Faroe fishing for anybody they like?-Yes. They are under no obligation to fish for Mr. Leask. They can go where they like, and they have always done so.

10,913. Do they hold their land as yearly tenants?-Yes.

10,912. What other property has Mr. Leask?-South Whiteness, to the north-west of Scalloway, in the parish of Tingwall. I think there are about seventeen or eighteen tenants on that property. They fish principally for Mr. Leask in the Faroe fishing, and in the spring fishing, which occupies about a month or a little more.

10,915. Then they are not generally engaged in the home fishing?-No; they are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing.

10,916. How many of them may have gone to that fishing last year?-There may have been above a dozen.

10,917. These men, I presume, have accounts at Mr. Leask's shop at Lerwick?-Yes.

10,918. Is there any stipulation made with them that they shall man his Faroe smacks?-None. They are not bound at all. They may go where they please and engage themselves with whoever they please.

10,919. Has Mr. Leask any other properties in Shetland?-He has some small properties in other places-in Quarff, North Roe, and Aithsting. He has two tenants in Quarff, three in Aithsting, and one in North Roe. These tenants do not fish for Mr. Leask at all, and never have done so, or been asked to do so.

10,920. Then Mr. Leask's business consists in sending smacks to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

10,921. And in sending boats to the summer fishing?-Now it does, but not formerly. It was only last year that he commenced the home fishing at Ulsta.

10,922. Has he commenced that business anywhere else?-No. Ulsta is the only summer-fishing station that he has.

10,923. Mr. Leask is also engaged in the whale fishing, both as an owner of ships and as an agent?-Yes.

10,924. I believe it is specially with regard to the agency business that you wish to make some statement?-Yes. I wish to make a statement with regard to Mr. Hamilton's Report to the Board of Trade in November 1870. Some of it is so utterly absurd that I should like to have it contradicted. He says, 'I ought to mention that the truck system, in an open or disguised form, prevails in Shetland to an extent which, I believe, is unknown in any other part of the United Kingdom.' Now, that I deny ; and I think I will be able to prove before I am done that it is not correct. 'And makes its depressing influence felt in all the ramifications of the industrial and social life of the natives.'

10,925. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not only is [Page 267] the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' Is that the case?-There may be some cases of that, but it is not general. I deny that almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt. Then he says, 'These fishermen, for the most part, also rent small farms of from three to four acres.' That also I deny Mr. Leask has about 120 tenants, and I think the average quantity of land they hold is about twelve acres of enclosed ground, besides common.

10,926. What is the amount of their rent?-The rent is something less than 10s. an acre, on the average. Some have as much as twenty-three acres, and in some cases they have about seven. The rental I have given is for the enclosed ground within the township; and in addition to that, the people have extensive commons.

10,927. On Mr. Leask's estates are the scattalds still left to the people without any payment?-Yes, except in Yell, where they have to pay 6d. per annum for every sheep. They also pay something for ponies, but nothing for cattle.

10,928. I omitted to ask whether Mr. Leask has the management of any properties except his own?-No.

10,929. He is not tacksman of any property, and he holds no property in lease?-No. I may mention that he has an assignation of the rents of a small property in Mid Yell, in security for debt. The rents are paid regularly, and he has nothing to do with the tenants except to draw their rent at the term.

10,930. Then what you deny in that sentence of Mr. Hamilton's Report is merely his statement as to the extent of the holdings of the men?-Yes. I hold they are three or four times larger than he says.

10,931. In the same sentence he adds, 'And it is from them (that is, the fishermen) and from their sons that the crews of the whaling vessels are mainly drawn.' Is that the case?-I don't deny that at all. It is quite true.

10,932. Is it also true that there are no whaling vessels belonging to Lerwick-that they belong principally to Dundee, Peterhead, and Hull, and that the owners of these vessels engage large portions of their crews at Lerwick through agents?-Yes.

10,933. Is it also true that these agents get little direct profit from their agency?-They get 21/2 per cent. commission on the gross wages paid through them.

10,934. Do you consider that an adequate remuneration?-It is not nearly an adequate remuneration for the amount of trouble they have; but it has been the practice to pay that, and there is so much competition amongst the agents that it has brought it down. I believe it was formerly 5 per cent.

10,935. I believe there are only three or four agents in Lerwick, and that the commission is fixed by mutual agreement between them and the shipowners?-Yes. It has always been 21/2 per cent. within my recollection.

10,936. Is it the competition that prevents the commission from being raised to such a figure as would be a sufficient remuneration in itself?-Yes.

10,937. The agents are engaged in business as shopkeepers and outfitters?-Yes.

10,938. Then it is the case that they have little direct profit from their agency; and Mr. Hamilton goes on to say, 'Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men.' Is that statement correct?-I think some of them make very little profit indeed from the men. They sell their goods as cheap, if not cheaper, than other shopkeepers do; they give credit to the men, and sometimes they lose a good deal of it through bad debts when there is a bad voyage.

10,939. Is a bad voyage in the whaling a thing of frequent occurrence?-It is very frequent, especially in the seal fishing.

10,940. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'Many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage?'-That is often the case with young hands. They come here without any clothing, and require perhaps from £5 to £6 worth in order to fit them out for the Greenland voyage. The wages for young hands are about £1 a month, and 1s. per tun of oil. When they have no success, they are back in about a month and a half; that is only 30s. they have to get, and that is all the agent has for his advance.

10,941. You are speaking now of the sealing voyage?-Yes. It only occupies about five or six weeks with the steamers.

10,942. But when a man goes on a sealing voyage of that kind, is he taken for the whaling voyage afterwards?-Sometimes, but sometimes not.

10,943. Do many of them only go to the sealing voyage?-Yes. Last year the majority bargained for the sealing voyage only, and did not go on the whaling voyage. Some of them re-engaged again, but many of them did not.

10,944. But, as a rule, do one-half of them engage for a second voyage after the sealing voyage was over?-I should say they do.

10,945. And many of them, I suppose, engage for a whaling voyage, who have not been at the sealing voyage at the commencement of the season?-That is sometimes the case.

10,946. How many men have you engaged for the last four or five years for the sealing voyages?-I could not say exactly for the last four or five years, but last year we engaged 207 for the sealing voyage, and 80 for the whaling, or 287 altogether.

10,947. Is not that an unusual proportion between the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. In former years we used to engage more for the whaling, and fewer for the sealing; but last year the owners took it into their heads to engage the men only for the sealing, and discharge them at the end of that voyage; and then, when the vessels were going to the whaling, they re-engaged only such men as they wanted.

10,948. What was their reason for that?-I suppose they were trying to economize. I don't know whether they economized or not, but it must have been with that view they tried it.

10,949 Are the crews larger in the sealing voyages than in the whaling?-They are. I should say that ten men fewer per ship are required for the whaling than for the sealing

10,950. How many ships would these represent?-Seven for the sealing, and four for the whaling.

10,951. So that you had three ships fewer under your care for the whaling than for the sealing last year?-Yes.

10,952 How did that happen? Did the ships not go to the whaling?-The 'Esquimaux' did not call here for men last year. The 'Victor' did not go at all to the whaling, and the third one remained at the sealing the whole season.

10,953. Then, in one ship the men you engaged would be employed through the whole season for the sealing?-Yes. That vessel tried whaling for a short time but I suppose it did not succeed.

10,954. You say that when a young man goes to the sealing at first, he incurs a larger debt for outfit than the whole amount of his wages?-Very often he does.

10,955. So that the merchant who engages him is often a serious loser, having no security in the shape of wages?-He risks his goods on the success of the voyage, and when the voyage is unsuccessful, he comes out a very serious loser occasionally.

10,956. But the man remains in his debt and may pay it up in a subsequent year?-Very often he does not. When a man gets into debt, we generally lose him. He goes to some other agent, or he goes south.

10,957. Is he more likely to go to another agent when he is in debt?-Yes. We very seldom get a man back again who is in debt to us.

10,958. How does that affect Mr. Hamilton's statement?-He says, 'The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for those who are in their debt.' Now we very seldom or never get them employed again when they once get into debt, and therefore it is our interest not to allow them to get into debt, if possible.

10,959. But you would be very glad to get employment for such a man if you could?-If we could get him employment we would be very glad; but they take [Page 268] very good care not to allow us to catch them. Of course, there are some of them who pay their debts, but that is the exception. I am now referring to the young hands-those who get into debt on their first voyage.

10,960. When a man of older standing gets into debt, is he more likely to pay up in a subsequent year?-Yes. A man whose family is settled here is more likely to pay up.

10,961. Of course, in his case, you are not only interested in getting employment for him, but he also is anxious to get employment through you?-Yes, it is a mutual accommodation; but there are very few of the old hands in debt. It is principally among the young men who make unsuccessful voyages that anything of that kind happens. Then we come to a very serious mistake which Mr. Hamilton makes. He says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeepers, are practically debarred from doing so; for any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any employment again.' Now, it is nonsense to say, that there are often more men than berths. We have often had to go and search for men, and ships have frequently had to go on their voyages short of men. That has often occurred within the last nineteen years to my knowledge. I have seen vessels lying here for day after day, when we were searching for hands and could not get them, and after all they had to leave short-handed.

10,962. Did that occur last year or the year before?-No; it has not occurred for it year or two, but five years ago it occurred in the case of the 'Jan Mayen.' The first year she was a steamer, which was five years ago, she had to go short-handed, because the men were so scarce.

10,963. Do you know of any other ships which have had to go to the fishing short-handed?-They have gone short-handed, although I could not just remember them. I know that in 1854 or 1855 a number of them were short-handed.

10,964. Was there any particular reason why that was the case in 1854 and 1855?-There were more ships than men. I believe the Russian war was the principal cause of it.

10,965. Had a number of Shetland men gone into the navy at that time?-They had gone south, not perhaps into the navy; but there was it great demand for men in the merchant trade. For the last two or three years, also, the men have not been in excess. When the ships were done, the men were generally done too, so that they were about equally matched.

10,966. You refer to the statement in the Report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man?'- Yes; I deny that most emphatically.

10,967. Is it the case that the men generally get what outfit they require at the shop of the merchant engaging them?-It is generally the case, but we engage plenty of men who go elsewhere to buy their goods. They are good men, and we are glad to get them back again. We never care a straw about whether they buy goods from us or not.

10,968. Are these men who have money of their own?-Yes. We give them their first month's advance in money, and they can go where they like.

10,969. What proportion of the men spend their month's advance elsewhere?-I don't think there is large proportion of them who do that. We generally find that we get on pretty well with the men, and that they prefer buying their goods from us. They tell us, but I don't know for the truth of it, that they get better value in our place than they get elsewhere.

10,970. Suppose a man gets his outfit from another agent, or from another shop, and comes back to you next year, is there any note kept of him having done so?-Never. There are several men who do that regularly, and we never quarrel them for it. They are good men and we don't like to lose sight of them for the sake of their custom. We always like to get hold a good man whether we get his custom or not and therefore we never quarrel with them on that account.

10,971. Suppose a man is in your debt at the beginning of the year, is he likely to go and get his supplies from another shop?-I could not say about that; but debt does not constitute any hold over him at all.

10,972. Do you know any case of a man in your debt at the beginning of the year having gone and got his supplies from another merchant?-I believe he would take part from us and part from others.

10,973. But do you know any case of that kind where the man went to another merchant for his supplies?-I could not point to any case.

10,974. Does any communication take place between different shipping agents with regard to the men who are in debt?-Not now. Formerly we used to hand our accounts from one to the other.

10,975. Did you exchange lists of the indebted men?-There were lists given for the other agents to try to recover the debts for us if possible.

10,976. Was that done with the view of obtaining payment from the agent by whom the men were engaged of a debt due to another merchant incurred in previous years?-Yes; but it was only done with the man's consent. Sometimes we recovered it, and sometimes not.

10,977. When you say that it was done with the man's consent, do you mean that at settling time the agent, who was aware that you were a creditor of the man, would arrange with him to hand over part of his wages to his former creditor?-Quite so, if the man was willing to do so.

10,978. The agent might advise him to do that, but not compel him?-He never could compel him. He would simply ask him if he chose to pay the claim; and if he chose not to pay it, there was no compulsion whatever.

10,979. Did you ever know of a man refusing to do that?-Very often.

10,980. In that case I presume that since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854, there were no means compelling payment?-None; except, of course, that he could be taken to the Small Debt Court.

10,981. And there was no security, no lien on the men's wages?- None whatever. There never was that at any time. It was purely with his own consent if the money was used for paying another agent's account,

10,982. How long is it since these lists were interchanged between the agents in Lerwick?-It was previous to 1854. Perhaps there may have been some handed since then; one agent may have handed his accounts to another, in order to get recovery of them.

10,983. You say you have been nineteen years with Mr. Leask, and therefore these lists must have been interchanged within your time?-Yes; I was first employed in 1853.

10,984. Do you say that there have been no lists of that kind exchanged, and no information communicated with regard to the men's debts, since 1853 or 1854?-I don't remember any since 1854: there may have been, but I don't remember handing any lists or receiving any lists since that time.

10,985. Or receiving any information at all with regard to the debts of the men?-Not since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854.

10,986. Why do you fix that date?-Because at that date it became compulsory to have the men shipped and discharged before the shipping master.

10,987. Has that always been done since 1854?-Not always. It was done I think, in 1854 and 1855, and it was not done again until 1867. In that year it commenced again, and the wages were all paid down in presence of the shipping master.

10,988. But if the Act was not observed with regard to the payment of wages in presence of the shipping master, how did it interfere with the passing of these lists?-The practice was given up.

10,989. At that time was it the practice for the men [Page 269] to receive payment of their wages at the agent's office?-Yes.

10,990. Was that done during all the period from 1854 down to 1867?-Yes, but not including 1867.

10,991. Can you say that, during that period you retained no portion of any man's wages for debt of another agent?-It is quite possible we may have done so, but I don't recollect.

10,992. I suppose your books will show whether any portion of a man's wages was so retained?-Yes.

10,993. Do you remember any case in which that was done?-I don't remember any particular case, but it is quite possible; in fact, it is even probable.

10,994. Do you think that some retentions of that kind took place every year?-I don't think so. Of course, if a man gave an order on Mr Leask to pay a debt or an account for him, he was bound to pay it if the man had funds in his hand. I have seen that done- that a seaman gave a special order in favour of another agent or another party.

10,995. Is that done frequently?-Not very often, but it is done sometimes.

10,996. Is it done by the man of his own accord?-Decidedly.

10,997. But probably at the request of the other agent?-I don't know about that. For instance, instead of getting money from the seaman, he might get an order on the agent, the same as he might get an order on the bank.

10,998. But the other agent who was the creditor of the seaman does not know necessarily that you have money belonging to the man in your hands as agent?-Not unless the man tells him.

10,999. Do you not still pass lists each year from one agent to another, stating the sums which are due to you by the men?-No.

11,000. I do not speak merely of seamen indebted to you; but do you not pass lists of all seamen whom you engage for the whaling?-Not at all. We have no occasion to do that, because it could serve no purpose whatever.

11,001. Why?-Because an agent who had a seaman in his books as a debtor would know at once whether that man was engaged by another agent in a particular year.

11,002. Is it the practice for one agent to be allowed to inspect the lists or books of another, in order to ascertain what seamen have been engaged?-I never did that or saw it done.

11,003. I suppose there are means of finding out in a small place like Lerwick what seamen in a particular year have been engaged?-We sometimes found it out in the Shipping Office. Whenever we wanted to see where a man was, we went there.

11,004. Can you state distinctly that in every case where such an order is presented for payment of a seaman's debt, it is presented without any previous communication between the agents?-I suppose it always is, but I don't know. The one agent has no interest whatever in recovering debts for the other; he gets no

remuneration for it.

11,005. If that is the case, why does he not refuse to honour the order?-I would not dishonour the order if the man had funds in our hands.

11,006. But the Merchant Shipping Act requires that all wages shall be paid, not in that way, not in obedience to any order, but in the presence of the shipping master in hard cash?-That is true; but it still allows a man to pay his debts.

11,007. Should not the agent leave him to pay his debts himself, and so obey the law?-It is merely as an accommodation to the seaman that we pay his debt for him, and we trust to his honesty that he will repay it to us.

11,008. But still, on the part both of the agent and of the seaman, is not that an infringement of the law?-No, it is not an infringement.

11,009. Does not the law require the whole wages, without any deductions other than those specified in the Act to be paid over in presence of the shipping master?-Yes, and that is always done.

11,010. If that is so, how is it possible, for you in obedience to such an order to retain the man's wages?-I do not retain them. The man comes back and repays his debt.

11,011. Then that is not retention in obedience to an order?-It is not retention: there has been no retention since 1867. Every man, since then has got his money in the Shipping Office, and those who had accounts in the shop came back and paid them.

11,012. Then how did it happen that you spoke of these orders being implemented?-I was referring to the period before 1867.

11,013. Your statement now is, that no such orders have been given, or acted upon since 1867?-They may have been given, but there have been no deductions from the seaman's wages since then, except the captain's account, the first month's advance, and the allotments. With these exceptions, the whole money was paid down to the seaman in the Shipping Office, and when he had an account in the shop he came and paid it.

11,014. Will your books show that?-Yes.

11,015. In what way do, your books prove it?-I request that the shipping master be called upon to prove it.

11,016. To prove what?-To prove that the men get their wages in money in the Shipping Office.

11,017. I intend to call Mr. Gatherer to prove that but you have come forward in order to contradict Mr. Hamilton's report, and the question I asked is, in what way do your books prove that no such orders have been honoured since 1867?-Mr. Gatherer will prove that since 1867 the men have got their wages paid down to them in money.

11,018. Am I to record that your books do not prove that?-They do not prove that. I want the shipping master to prove it.

11,019 Then your books will not prove that all the wages have been paid to the men in cash, and that no sum has been retained in obedience to a seaman's order?-That can be proved by the shipping master.

11,020. But your books do not prove it?-We have accounts with the seamen, and when they get their wages, they invariably come back and settle these accounts. We do not retain anything; we invariably pay them the whole money that is due to them, and they can either come back or not as they choose.

11,021. Who is it that hands over the money to the men on behalf of Mr. Leask in presence of the shipping master?-It is generally Mr. Andrew Jamieson, and sometimes myself. One of us attends at the Shipping Office along with the men, and hands over their cash to them in presence of the shipping master.

11,022. Do you generally find that a seaman comes down to your office immediately after he has been paid, and settles any account that he is due?-We generally find that that is the case; in fact, always when they have accounts they come down and settle them.

11,023. Have you known any exceptions to that rule?-I have only known one man who tried not to come down and settle his account.

11,024. Who was he?-He was a lad belonging to Lunnasting, named Robert Grains. He declined to come down and settle his account but he afterwards came on the same day. I think that occurred two years ago.

11,025. When was he asked to come?-I suppose he never was asked particularly; but it is understood that every man has to pay his debt when he is able.

11,026. But you say that he declined?-I believe he declined on the ground that he required the money. I don't know whether he was asked to come or whether he merely said of his own accord that he would not be able to pay his account just now, as he required the money.

11,027. Was that done in your presence?-No; it was in Mr. Jamieson's.

11,028. Did you see the man when he came back to the office?-I don't remember seeing him. It was Mr. Jamieson who told me of the circumstance.

11,029. When a man comes down to settle after receiving [Page 270] his money at the Shipping Office does he hand over the whole money into your hands, or does he merely settle the amount of his account?-He sometimes does the one way and sometimes the other.

11,030. Sometimes he may hand over the whole money for you to settle with him?-Yes; and at other times he asks what he is due.

11,031. When he hands over the whole money to you, does it ever happen that the accounts of another shipping agent are settled at the same time in your office-It has not happened since 1867.

11,032. Is there anything in the state of the law to prevent that from being done if the man has got his cash at the Shipping Office?-I don't think there is.

11,033. Then why has it never been done since 1867?-I don't know; it has just happened so.

11,034. Was that done regularly previous to 1867?-A few instances might have occurred, but it was not very general practice at all.

11,035. In what way before that time did you know that a man was owing another agent unless you had the sum intimated to you by that agent, or had lists exchanged?-The agent very likely ascertained when the man was to settle and came along.

11,036. He had ascertained where the man was employed?-Yes, in what ship.

11,037. Did he do that by means of information obtained at the Custom House?-Possibly he might.

11,038. Was it not by information obtained from the agent who employed the man?-It was possibly from the Custom House, or from some other party.

11,039. But it might have been from the agent who engaged the man?-It is quite possible.

11,040. Was it not a regular practice to give information of that sort?-No.

11,041. Was such an arrangement made more commonly when the man was pretty deep in debt?-Yes.

11,042. The agent in whose books he had run up a considerable debt would look sharper after him, and would make inquiries at the other agent by whom he was employed?-Yes.

11,043. So that at least to that extent there was regular system of communication between the agents?-It was not done to any great extent; it was merely trifling. There were not so many men in debt as to make it a common practice.

11,044. It might come to something considerable where several hundreds of men were engaged in the whale fishing?-Yes; but when they were divided among four agents there would not be many.

11,045. But last year you engaged 280 men yourselves?-Yes.

11,046. And in some years the number of men employed in the sealing and whaling would be greater?-Yes. I think we employed about 500 in 1853.

11,047. So that among 500 men employed by you it was very probable that a considerable number should be in your debt?-I don't think there were many of them indebted at all. Last year there were very few indeed.

11,048. But in past years there may have been a very considerable number when you had 500 or 600 men engaged?-When the fishing proved a failure the debts would be very considerable.

11,049. In going through Mr. Hamilton's Report, you have omitted a sentence in which he says: 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents, or, in other words, for the agent to undertake to pay to himself part of the seaman's wages.' Is it quite common for the allotment notes to be made out in favour of the agents?-Yes, it was quite common.

11,050. Is it sometimes done still?-We have never done it in Mr. Leask's office but I believe it has been done elsewhere.

11,051. Why was it never done in Mr. Leask's office?-We just trusted to the men's honesty.

11,052. Have you never taken an allotment note, in which the party to whom it was payable was, not Mr. Leask, but some one in his office?-We never took out allotment notes at all.

11,053. When you engage a man, does he not generally take an allotment note?-Not generally.

11,054. Does he do it at all?-Not at all.

11,055. He gets his supplies from you without any allotment note?-Yes; without us having any guarantee at all. We have advanced both goods and money, to great extent, without any allotment note.

11,056. But in these cases you were aware that he had no allotment note?-We have never issued any allotment notes for the last six years, except, perhaps, in a very rare case. We may have given one or so.

11,057. Of course, you would not have advanced him the money had there been an allotment note left in the hands of his with or other relations, which they were entitled to draw from you?-We would have advanced money to parties whom we knew.

11,058. Have you frequently given money to a seaman's family during his absence?-Yes.

11,059. But more frequently supplies?-Not more frequently. It was just as they wished it. If they wished supplies they got them, but we did not wish them to take them.

11,060. What further observation have you to make on Mr. Hamilton's Report?-Towards the end he says that the men employed are not free agents. I deny that. I say they are free agents, and that they are at perfect liberty, so far as my experience goes. They can engage with whoever they please, and take their supplies anywhere they please.

11,061. In denying that statement, do you intend your denial to be applicable both to the men who are in your debt and to those who are clear?-Decidedly. The debt constitutes no hold whatever over the men.

11,062. Even where the man has a family, and is resident in Shetland?-Yes, even then.

11,063. And even where he is a tenant of Mr. Leask, if that happens to be the case?-Yes. Even in that case he may go where he pleases. I never yet saw Mr. Leask compel a man in any way. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'While the men employed are not free agents, however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wishes to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the results of their labour.' That also I deny. There is an insinuation there that the employers do not do what is right; and I think the word 'appropriating' does not look very well; but it is not correct. The Shetland people, in general, are pretty well able to take care of themselves, and they are sharp enough in settling, to look out that they have got fair play.

11,064. And even to take care that the prices charged for goods are not unreasonably high?-Yes; they take very good care of that.

11,065. Have you many disputes as to the prices of goods at settling time?-Very few indeed.

11,066. Does that arise from the fact that your charges are very moderate, or from the fact that the Shetlanders don't pay much attention to that matter?-They pay great attention to it, and an article is always priced before they buy it. I am quite sure that our prices are not higher than those of others; at least so far as my experience goes.

11,067. There is another statement in Mr. Hamilton's Report, to which you have not referred,-that there is no time fixed for settlement with the men who go to the seal and whale fishing?- That is quite correct; but it is our interest to get the work of settlement done as speedily as possible.

11,068. In what way is it your interest?-To get the work off our hands. We could settle with a dozen men nearly in the same time that we can with two or three; and if they would all come and get settled with in one or two days, that would be so much less trouble to us.

11,069. Is it the case that the men, after being discharged from the ship and before settlement, continue to run accounts with you to any extent?-Very seldom.

11,070. Does it happen to some extent?-Only to a very small extent. They seldom buy anything after they have landed. Here [showing] is a crew of 27 men [Page 271] landed from the 'Esquimaux' on 28th April 1870, and they were all paid off by 14th May, or in about two weeks.

11,071. That was for a sealing voyage. Did these men engage again for the whaling?-I believe some of them did.

11,072. Were others going south?-Some of them went south, I daresay, and a good number of them went to the home fishing.

11,073. Have you had any case of as early a discharge in the case of a whaling voyage?-Here [showing] is the crew of the 'Polynia' last year. Nineteen men were landed on 26th October, and they were all paid off and discharged by 29th November, or in about a month. When the men don't come to be discharged, it is entirely their own fault, not ours. We can't compel them to come. We wish them to come as soon as possible and to settle; but sometimes they don't find it convenient. Some of them may live 20 or 30 miles from Lerwick, and they don't care about coming until they have to come deal about some other business.

11,074. Is it not often more than a month before they are discharged?-Perhaps it is. Two or three of them may stay away till the end of the year, but that is the men's fault, not the agent's. Mr. Hamilton says in the same paragraph: 'When he (the agent) does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' I deny that. The man he may hand it back or not, as he chooses, but if he is an honest man he will pay his debt.

11,075. But you don't deny that in most cases there is a debt due to the shop?-In most cases they have an account with the shop, but in some cases it is very small.

11,076. Can you give me an idea from your books what is the average amount of the debts due by the men engaged in the Greenland fishing?-I could not do that just now; but I can state that, in 1865,-which was before we were compelled to settle with them in the Custom House, we paid to the men of the 'Camperdown'-42 men-£1120, 12s. 3d. in cash; and out of that number Mr. Leask had only one tenant.

11,077. That would be about £25 apiece?-Yes, on an average; but some of these men had upwards of £50 to get. One of them had £54, 18s. 5d. to get, and he got it in cash.

11,078. Was that a very successful year?-Yes; and the following year was somewhat similar to it.

11,079. What would be the amount of goods supplied to these men at starting, or to their families during their absence?-About £400 for the whole crew.

11,080. That would be about £9 apiece for the 42 men?-Yes, about that.

11,081. Would that be the average amount of a Greenlandman's account for the season?-No; it would be much more than the average. Less than the half of that would be nearer the average.

11,082. But the amount of receipts due upon that voyage was considerably above the average?-Yes; it was it very exceptional voyage.

11,083. Was it twice as much as usual?-Yes; perhaps about that.

11,084. Do you mean that £4 or £5 is the average amount of the account due by a seaman engaged in the whaling?-I never made any calculation about it but I should think it would be somewhere about that.

11,085. In what way are your accounts with these men kept? Is there an account kept in the name of each man?-Yes. [Produces book.] There [showing] is the account I have been referring to of the 'Camperdown.'

11,086. You have a ledger for each ship?-Yes.

11,087. And this account shows the whole transactions for 1865?-Yes.

11,088. This [showing] is the account of Hercules Hunter, Lerwick, who was engaged in the seal fishing of 1865 at 50s. per month, and 2s. 6d. per ton of oil-money; 2s. 6d. per 1000 skins, and 2s. 6d. per ton of bone?-Yes.

11,089. The first entry on March 4, 1865, consists of two advances of 20s. each to account of his first month's pay, and 3s. as his subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, for which Mr. Leask was agent?-Yes.

11,090. The next entry is half of note to Mr. Hay for rent, £1, 18s. 11/2d. Had Mr. Leask undertaken to pay his rent?-Yes.

11,091. The following entries, to the amount of £2, 0s. 31/2d., are for outfit at starting, consisting both of clothing and private stores?-Yes.

11,092. Then follows-insurance, 5s. 10d.: what is that?-The insurance is on the outfit, and it is charged over and above the month's advance. The advance is made by the owner of the ship; and what is over that is at risk, which is covered by insurance. We get it done for them, and they refund the premium.

11,093 Do you employ a broker to effect an insurance on all your advances of that kind?-Yes.

11,094. Then the 5s. 10d. is the amount of insurance paid by you upon the sum of £3, 10s., which was the amount of cash and goods advanced to this man at the time of, or after, his sailing?-Yes.

11,095. There is also a balance of the old debt: was that not included in the insurance?-No.

11,096. On April 27 the man returns from his voyage and receives a payment in cash of 20s., with certain additional supplies; and on 28th April you enter to his credit the sum of £30, 8s. 4d. for wages, oil-money, and skin-money due to him upon that voyage?-Yes; that is the first payment.

11,097. His account runs on from 2d May till 4th December of the same year, when it is settled, during which time he has been upon a whaling voyage?-Yes.

11,098. At the commencement of that voyage on 2d May he receives £5 in cash?-Yes; that is to account of oil-money.

11,099. On 8th May he receives £5 in cash; on 16th May, £3; November 1, 3s.; November 18, 2s.; and on November 1 also there is £1, 16s. entered as having been paid at Dundee: that would be advanced by the shipowners there?-Yes.

11,100. On November 22d he receives £8 in cash, and a balance was paid on December 4 of £18, 8s.?-Yes.

11,101. The rest of the debits in that account consist of supplies for himself during the voyage in the captain's account and supplies to his family of meal, sugar, soap, tea, and other items; and the total amount of his credit for wages, oil-money, bone-money, for the two voyages, was £58, 19s. 2d.?-Yes.

11,102. In that case the settlement took place in December?-Yes, the final settlement.

11,103. The whaling voyage would come to an end in November?-Yes, not sooner; so that the man had only been at home about a month when he was settled with.

11,104. But during all that time you had in your hands the proceeds of his first successful sealing voyage?-Yes, except what he had got. I think he got £19 in cash out of the £30, besides his goods up to the 16th May.

11,105. And the balance of £11 remained in your hands as a security for the advances he was getting up to the settlement in December?-Yes.

11,106. Then, on November 20, he was credited with the additional sums due for the whaling voyage, amounting to £28, 4s. 10d.; so that, in addition to supplying him with goods, upon which you had your profit you were, during all that time acting as his banker?-No; he had got £19 to account by 16th May.

11,107. But to the extent of £11 you were acting as his banker?- Yes.

11,108. And he was not getting interest for it?-I think he should have paid interest.

11,109. Not when you had £11 of his in your hands?-No; but we charged him no interest when we advanced him more.

[Page 272]

11,110. But you charged insurance upon the goods he got, and you had your profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we had to lie out of the money, for some time. We might have lain out of that money for eight or nine months.

11,111. Had you sold him these goods at a cash price, and not at a credit price?-At a cash price; we have only one price. We make no difference between cash and credit.

11,112. Was the oil-money that is credited to the man on 20th November the first payment of oil-money?-It was the first payment of oil-money for the Davis Straits voyage.

11,113. When was the second payment of oil-money made?-It is credited on 19th February 1866.

11,114. It only amounted to 15s.?-Yes. I don't believe that we had received the first money at the time when we paid the man, so that we had no money on hand.

11,115. Take the case, now, of a man living in the country, George Georgeson in Walls. He receives, in like manner, on 4th March, £2, 13s. in cash, and he gets supplies, and is debited with insurance in the same way. On April 27 he has the same amount to receive for the sealing voyage, and on May 17 he gets £12,10s. in cash; on September 9, £1 per order: was that an allotment note?-It was money to account.

11,116. It would be advanced to his wife upon the security of the voyage?-Yes.

11,117. On November 20 there is £5; and £1, 6s. for cash at Dundee and Aberdeen. He is credited with the same amount of wages as Hunter, and on December 4 he is credited with second payment for the sealing voyage £3, 15s. Then, on December 26, he receives £28, 2s. 6d. in cash; and the rest of his debits consist of supplies to his family in sugar, tea, aqua, canvas, and other small article, but to a very small extent. I suppose the supplies taken out in that way by people living out of Lerwick are usually less than in the case of those who live in town?-Yes. It costs them both expense and trouble to get them from Lerwick.

11,118. There is also the case of James Twatt, Sandness, who is debited on March 4 with £2, 3s. to advance; and then on March 4 and 9 he gets supplies to the amount of £3, 38. 71/2d., upon which there is charged 6s. 51/2d. of insurance. On April 27, on his return from the sealing voyage he gets 20s. in cash, and he is credited with £20, 10s., for wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes; I think he was only at the sealing voyage.

11,119. Then, on May 27, he gets £7 in cash; July 10, 15s.; September 11, £2; and on December 4 he is credited with second payment for sealing voyage, £2, 5s. On March 6 he receives 2s. in cash; and on the same date he is settled with, by receiving £3, 1s. 3d. in cash. The total proceeds of that voyage to him were £22, 15s.?-Yes.

11,120. How many ships had you in 1865?-I think we had seven.

11,121. Were they all as fortunate as this one?-No, none of the others were so fortunate.

11,122. Was 1866 as good a year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes.

11,123. I see that in that year Adam Moar had £36, 2s. upon the two voyages; of that he got in cash at starting, and the amount of the Shipwrecked Mariners' ticket, 33s.; on May 2, cash 40s.; having been credited on that date with the proceeds of the sealing voyage, £21, 9s. 6d.; May 8, cash 10s.; May 17, cash 32s.; May 19, cash 6d.; August 16, cash 8s.; and on June 22, 1866, there is an entry to G.R. Tait's account, £3, 2s. 10d.: was that a previous account due to Mr. Tait, which you had paid for the man?-Yes.

11,124. Then, on August 16, there is cash 8s.; October 22, cash £6, captain's account £1, 7s. 6d.; cash at Dundee for travelling charge, £1, 6s. I thought the engagement was, that when the men were carried past Lerwick, their travelling expenses home were paid to them?-That is generally the case.

11,125. Then why is that sum charged against the man?-It has been something additional; it was advanced besides what was paid by the owner.

11,126. On October 23 he is credited with the proceeds of the whaling voyage, and on October 31 his account is settled by a cash payment of £4; the difference between the previous cash payments and this balance being made up of supplies to himself and the family-Yes.

11,127. The second payment on both voyages was made on January 1, 1867, and he got £4, 8s. 1d. in cash?-Yes; that was when he came in to settle.

11,128. Was 1867 a good year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes; both 1867 and 1868 were pretty fair years for her, but not so good as the former years.

11,129. Have you anything to show the state of accounts in 1870 or 1871?-Yes. [Produces book for 1871.] It is not the case that we do not keep accounts with the men, because we pay them in presence of the shipping master, and then they pay their accounts to us.

11,130. Do you keep your accounts now in a different way from what you did when the book was current upon which I have been examining you?-No; they are kept quite in the same way.

11,131. I see that the account for 1871, which you have produced, is not yet settled?-No; it is for the 'Polynia,' another ship.

11,132. Why have you selected these two ships?-Because the one was previous to the compulsory settlement at the Custom House, and the other was not.

11,133. Have you not had the 'Camperdown' since?-Yes.

11,134. Were the ''Camperdown' and 'Polynia' the best paying ships in this year?-The 'Camperdown' was, but not the 'Polynia.'

11,135. And the 'Polynia' was not the most successful ship since 1868?-No, nor before.

11,136. Take the account of Peter Blance, Yell. His wages were 20s. per month, 1s. per ton of oil, and 2s. per thousand seal-skins?-Yes, he was a young hand.

11,137. He gets an advance at first of 4s. as a payment to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund; then he gets an outfit, £3, 2s., upon which 2s. 1d. of insurance is charged. On April 17 he receives in cash 5s., and at that date he is in your debt for £1, 7s. 8d., after crediting him with wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes.

11,138. That balance is carried on to a new account in which there appear certain supplies, and he is credited with his share of the summer fishing, and also with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item of 2s, making up £16, 1s. 3d.; and also with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item of 2s. making up £16, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.

11,139. On November 29, there is entered to balance rent account, £12, 14s. 8d. Is Blance one Leask's tenants?-His mother was a tenant of Mr. Leask.

11,140. Then the £12,14s. 8d. was applied to square off that account?-Yes; it was put to his mother's credit.

11,141. The sum due to Blance on April 17, on the sealing voyage, was £3, 14s. 4d.?-Yes, that was the money paid to him at the Custom House, before the shipping master.

11,142. When was it transferred to your hands?-He would come down to the office and pay it back. I cannot say exactly at what hour he came, but he would come on the same day.

11,143. Then the £12, 14s. 8d., which was due for rent, was transferred by you to the rent account?-Yes, by his own order.

11,144. Was it done at your request?-It was at his mother's request.

11,145. How old is Blance?-He is about 20.

11,146. Had you had any correspondence with his mother about transferring that money to her amount his mother had been in arrear, or some time. She was a widow, and Mr. Leask had been rather obliging her by allowing her to remain where she was for some years, when she was not able to pay any rent. Then when her son was grown up, and was able to pay the debt, he did so.

[Page 273]

11,147. Here [showing] is the account of William Johnston, jun., Yell: was he another young hand?-Yes; he was in the same position as Blance. Both their fathers were drowned a few years ago, and their mothers lived in Yell.

11,148. In May, the balance against him was £4, 14s. 11d., and that includes the balance from a previous fish ledger, of £3, 1s. 6d.?-Yes; he was at the Faroe fishing and was rather unfortunate.

11,149. That is carried into a new account in May, and after allowing him his share of the summer ling fishing, £14, 13s. 9d., and his second payment of oil-money, the balance carried to the rent ledger against him is £8, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.

11,150. That was for his mother's rent in the same way as in the case of Blance?-Yes; these are the only two cases of the kind in Mr. Leask's transactions with his tenants.

11,151. Here [showing] is the account of Magnus Arthur, Yell: was he also a young hand?-Yes.

11,152. Last year he got advances to the amount of 19s. 10d., on which 1s. 7d. of insurance was charged; afterwards, on April 17, he received in cash 5s., and £1, 16s. 11d. at settlement in November; the amount on his receipts from wages, oil-money, and skin-money, being £4, 19s. 10d.?-Yes.

11,153. I see that in the case of Hugh Arthur, Nesting, the amount due to him in wages, oil-money, and skin-money, was £7, 15s. 6d., in April 1871; and the account at his debit for previous advances was £7, 11s. 8d., part of which consisted of a payment of £2, 5s. upon an advance note in favour of J. Dalzell?-Yes.

11,154. That sum of £7, 15s. 6d. was paid, I presume, before the superintendent at the Custom House?-Yes, after deducting the £2, 5s., the master's account, and the shipping master's fees.

11,155. And then Arthur walked down to your office and paid the amount of his account?-Yes, he came down and settled the account he was due to Mr. Leask for advances.

11,156. Is that done universally by the men when there is an account due by them?-Yes, after receiving their money they walk back to the office and pay their accounts.

11,157. Do they generally accompany you down to the office or the clerk who sees them paid?-One of us sometimes accompanies them to the office but we don't wait for them; they come back when they please.

11,158. Do you always desire them to come down to the office and settle their accounts when they leave the shipping master's office?-Of course, they understand they have to pay their accounts. We don't require to tell them that. The men are very honest on the whole, and don't require to be asked to pay what they are due.

11,159. Except in the case of a man like Robert Grains?-That is the only exception I have known since 1867.

11,160. I suppose if any of them showed a reluctance to settle their account at the time, then either you or the clerk who attended at the shipping master's office would remind them of it and ask them to come down to your shop to settle?-Except in that one case, I never saw even the least hint of that.

11,161. There is generally a second payment due to the men for oil-money?-Invariably.

11,162. Where is that second payment of oil-money settled?-In the agent's office now.

11,163. Why is it not also paid before the shipping master?- Because it creates a great amount of trouble to go there with every man to make the settlement. It entails an immense amount of labour.

11,164. Then the final settlement of accounts between you and the seamen does not take place until the second payment becomes due?-No.

11,165. And generally the actual settlement is some time after it becomes due?-Yes, a short time after.

11,166. Does it generally take place at the time when the men are engaging for their next year's voyage?-No. We are so busy then that we could not take time to settle their balances. There may be a few cases of that kind, but very few.

11,167. But with men from the North Isles, is it not the case that the settlement for the second payment takes place when they come in to arrange for the next year's voyage?-Yes.

11,168. And when they take supplies at that time, are these put into the account for the rising year?-Yes, if they take supplies after they engage.

11,169. They don't go into the account on which the oil-money has been paid?-That account has been previously settled.

11,172. But I am putting the case of a man wife receives his final payment of oil-money at the same time that he engages for the voyage of the rising year?-He receives his oil-money, if he wishes it, in cash, and if he wishes an advance on the rising year, he gets it besides.

11,171. In point of fact, what is generally done?-We pay the second payment of oil-money in cash; and then afterwards, if the man wishes any advance, and if it is a person we know, we will trust him with it.

11,172. But he is entitled to his advance in any case?-He is not entitled to get goods unless we choose to give them to him.

11,173. Is that advance always paid in money?-It is always paid in money if they wish it. All they are entitled to is one month's advance, and that they are entitled to receive in money.

11,174. But when a man engages for the whale fishing, and asks for his first month's pay in advance, is it the case that, in point of fact, he generally gets it in cash, or does he generally take it in goods?-We always give advance notes at the shipping office, stamped notes payable three days after the ship leaves, provided the men go in the ship.

11,175. Then you don't give either goods or money until after the man is actually away?-Yes. When man is engaged he gets his clothes to take with him, and if he wishes to give us his advance note we will cash it afterwards.

11,176. Do you give him his clothes in addition to the amount of his advance note?-If he wishes it.

11,177. But I see in all the entries I have been looking at, that the advance note is entered to his debit?-We debit him with what he receives, and he gives us back the advance note.

11,178. Here, for instance, is an entry of cash 30s. that actually paid to the man in cash?-Yes. He asks us to give him what money he requires, and he leaves his advance note with us. If he wants to get 40s. or 45s., he would get it; but if he says that he only wants 30s., we don't give him more than he requires.

11,179. A man who engages in that way has perhaps to get the amount of his last payment of oil-money for the previous year, and also cash for his advance?-Yes. That may happen very often, and it does happen. He first gets his payment of oil-money, and after he re-engages he gets his advance.

11,180. If a man in these circumstances wants a supply of meal or clothing or anything to be sent to his family, does that appear in your books, or is it paid for in money out of the monthly sums which his family may have to receive?-The whole of these things are kept in one account.

11,181. But suppose he buys meal at that time, will that enter your books at all?-Anything that he does not pay for will be entered.

11,182. But he may pay for it out of that very cash which is entered here as having been received by him?-He may do so; but we don't mark down anything that is paid for.

11,183. When a man has his oil-money to receive, and is taking his month's advance at the same time, is it not usual to ask him if he wants any supplies for his family?-I don't know that it is. We don't obtrude questions of that kind upon them.

11,184. Does he not often take supplies for his family?-Very often.

11,185. And these are paid for in cash out of the cash he is so receiving from you?-Very often.

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11,186. But you say you don't obtrude questions about his wants upon him at that particular time?-No. We never engage a man to be paid in goods at all. We engage every man to be paid in money; and if he is paid in goods it is his own fault.

11,187. But, in point of fact, a man often does take goods, at that time?-Very often. We make it, a point to give them as cheap or cheaper than they could get them elsewhere.

11,188. Therefore although there is an entry in your books of oil-money being paid to a man at a certain date, and of a payment of 30s. or £2 being made to him at the same time, on account of his first month's advance, it may happen, and it does happen, that that money is paid back into your till for goods supplied the time?-A part of it may be; but the place where the cash is kept, and the place where the goods are sold, are two separate places, so that the things must be kept quite distinct. The shop is on the ground floor opening from the street, and the office is up a lane on the second floor, where we have also a warehouse or general store for drapery goods. A man, when he gets his money in the office, may go and buy drapery goods on the second floor, or he may go down stairs and buy provisions. We don't know what he does.

11,189. You do know, in point of fact, that he often does spend his money there and then?-I have no doubt he does.

11,190. But you are not aware that he is often asked if he wants anything at the time?-I am not aware of that. It is not done now at any rate.

11,191. Do you know whether it was the practice, before the evidence was given in Edinburgh last year, to ask a man on such occasions what goods he would take?-Our shopmen might have done so. Every shopman is keen to sell as much as he can; and when he is aware of a man getting plenty of money, he would likely ask him, 'Are you going to buy anything?'

11,192. You have now handed in to me the abstract from which you previously spoke, with regard to the 'Camperdown's' voyages in 1865, which shows a total of £1537, 10s. 3d. for the men's earnings for both the sealing and whaling that year, and a total amount of cash paid to them, both during the season and at the end, of £1120, 12s. 3d., leaving a balance of £416, 18s. for goods sold?-Yes.

11,193. Do you think that shows about the average proportion of goods and cash received by each man during each year?-I should say that it does.

11,194. Was that not an unusually favourable season for the whaling?-For most of the vessels it was.

11,195. But were not these voyages of the 'Camperdown' very considerably above the average with respect to the earnings of the men?-They were above the average.

11,196. Do you also say that the accounts incurred by the men that year were above the average?-I should certainly say so. They bought more than they otherwise would or could have done.

11,197. Why should that be so? The men did not know at the commencement of the season whether the fishing was to be a successful one or not?-The greater quantity of the goods are bought after the sealing voyage, when they have earned a considerable sum of money.

11,198. Then the sealing voyage that year was unusually successful?-Yes. The principal part of the earnings were from it; and it was after it that the greater portion, or a great portion, of the accounts were contracted.

11,199. And you think the fact of the sealing voyage being unusually successful led the men or their families to incur larger accounts to you than they would otherwise have done?-I should certainly say so; because when the men's earnings are small, we have to restrict them. In this case, however, they had plenty of means, and we did not refuse them what they wanted.

11,200. With regard to the sum due at the end of the season, and paid in cash before the superintendent, what proportion of it should you say was refunded immediately in payment of accounts due at the shop?-I suppose about one-fourth, calculating from the case I have given.

11,201. I think if you look at the books which you have showed me, you will find that many of the accounts show that a much larger sum would require to be repaid. That may have been the proportion for a special ship, but it does not follow that that is a fair criterion?-I took that book simply because it came first to hand. I did not take it specially; but of course, it will show more goods sold, in proportion to the amount of earning than any other book we have got.

11,202. But can you not tell me what proportion of the money paid before the superintendent the man has to come down to and hand over to you in payment of his account?-The men, when they are landed, and before settlement, often get sums in cash to account, and sometimes pretty heavy sums, before they get their money at the Shipping Office.

11,203. But you would not do that if the men were in debt to you for goods?-No, not if they were in debt.

11,204. So that if a man has to refund money to you out of what he gets before the shipping master, that will, in the general case, be in payment of goods which he has got?-Yes, generally.

11,205. It must be so, because you would not advance him money if he was in your debt?-No; but the men generally are not in our debt. When they are in debt, it is the exception, especially in the whaling trade.

11,206. Then if a man is in your debt, and has to refund you money which he receives before the shipping master, that must be for goods?-Yes, for goods alone, if he is in debt; but we don't like him to be in debt. If he be in debt, it must be for goods. We would not care about allowing a man to get into debt for cash, although it may sometimes be the case, because Mr. Leask is very accommodating in the way of giving advances.

11,207. But the answer you give is, that about one-fourth of the sums which have been received by the men before the shipping master is repaid to you by them in settling their accounts for goods?-I said that I thought about one-fourth represented the goods sold; but, in many cases the men have got advances in money to account over and above the goods they have bought; so that the money paid over to the agent after the settlement before the shipping master, will be more than one-fourth. I should say that it would be one-third, and that would cover the sums of money paid to account from the date of landing to the date of settlement. It is quite a common thing for the men to get money as soon as they land, and before settlement; and that of course, increases the account against the men, which they have to pay after receiving their money before the shipping master.

11,208. Still you don't give that as an exact statement but merely as a guess?-It is merely an approximation, as nearly as I can guess it to be and I have a very good idea.

11,209. You say the men always go down of their own accord to pay the money, because they are honest men?-Yes, invariably. They don't require to be asked to do so.

11,210. Has it not been the case that at certain times within the last 3 or 4 years, and since the regulations of 1868 were enacted by the Board of Trade, you and your clerks have endeavoured to settle with the men before leaving the Custom House?-I think in the first year that was done. We simply paid them over the balance which they had to receive, after deducting their accounts. Perhaps it was partly done in the second year; but since then the shipping master has been more rigid, and we have had to pay the whole.

11,211. Did the shipping master interfere about that?-He always interfered, and he would not allow any reckoning in the Shipping Office at all

11,212. Since then the men have invariably come down to your office and settled with you immediately after they had received their money in the Shipping Office?-Yes, on the same day, and without any exception, unless in the one case I mentioned, and that man came on the same day also after some reflection.

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11,213. You still keep your ledger accounts in the same form as if there were no such payment of cash in the Shipping Office?-Yes, we adhere to the same form that we used before.

11,214. So that your books do not show, without calculation, what amount of cash was transferred before the shipping master?-They show the account exactly as it is, irrespective of the settlement before the shipping master.

11,215. In that way, is it not the case that the transference of the cash before the shipping master is merely form in order to comply with the Act?-I don't think so; because, if a man chooses to keep the money, he may do so. The account is kept merely to show the man's earnings, and how these earnings have been disposed of. It would be more simple, perhaps, to debit the men with the goods they get, and then to credit the cash after the settlement; but the form we use has always been adopted, and we still adhere to it. I don't think it is an evasion of the Act at all.

11,216. The men are not all settled with on the same day?-No.

11,217. Perhaps you may settle with half a dozen at time?-Yes. I remember of settling with nineteen on one day last year, but I think that is the largest number; but we could have settled with more if they had come forward.

11,218. Of course, if the men were all settled with as they land from the ships, perhaps to the number of 40 at a time, it would be more easy for them to go away without paying their debts?-Of course it would, but it is no great trouble to them to come and pay their debts.

11,219. But there would be great difficulty for you or your clerk in looking after them on the way down from the Shipping Office to the shop?-I don't think so. It is the work of a moment to take their money from them, because we can see at a glance what is due.

11,220. How far is Mr. Leask's office from the Shipping Office?- It may be about a couple of hundred yards, but I could not say exactly. Mr. Leask's office is in the town, and the Custom House is in Fort Charlotte which is to the north of the town.

11,221. You say you settled with nineteen men in one day: did these men all go up at one time before the superintendent?-All that were there at the time went before the superintendent.

11,222. But the ordinary number with whom you settle on the same day will be much less?-Yes; sometimes there may be eight or ten, and sometimes only one.

11,223. So that if they really require looking after, there will not be much difficulty in looking after them from the Custom House to the office?-We never require to look after them at all; they come of themselves.

11,224. But suppose the case that they did require it; it would not be very difficult to look after them, when there are only one or two, or even eight or ten?-We should not take the trouble to do that. If they chose to swindle us, we should just apply to the Small Debt Court. We would not be inclined to act the part of sheriff-officer ourselves. Mr. Hamilton says in his Report, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper, and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down to children of 12 or 14 years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books'-I don't think that is the case. Some of them may perhaps have accounts, but I don't think every is indebted to some shopkeeper.

11,225. Still that is a common thing?-Quite a common thing.

11,226. Does it occur in your books as well as in those of other firms, that separate accounts are opened for the wife and for the children?-Never for the wife; but, of course, an account is opened for the children when we are employing them.

11,227. Have you any transactions in hosiery?-We have transactions in barter for what Mr. Walker calls the hosiery improper or incidental. We do a great deal in that way in the coarser sort of work stockings, frocks, and so on. We barter goods for them, or rather I should say we take them instead of money.

11,228. You don't keep, accounts with regard to these transactions?-No.

11,229. Every transaction is separate and distinct?-Yes, it is simple barter. The people come with their goods instead of money, and we give them, goods in exchange for them.

11,230. A married woman may come with her knitting and sell it in that way for goods?-Yes.

11,231. But you don't keep an account with her?-No; we don't keep separate accounts with a man and his wife.

11,232. If she gives the hosiery in that way, and does not want any goods, may it be put down to the husband's account?-We don't care about taking hosiery at all. We simply take the hosiery instead of money, because the people come wanting to buy goods, and very often they have nothing to give for them except their hosiery. We frequently take the hosiery from them at a great disadvantage.

11,233. Do you frequently open accounts with the children of a family when they are in your employment?-I should not call them children, but grown-up young people-boys of from 12 years of age and upwards, who are employed in the fish-curing.

11,234. Do you employ many boys in your establishment at Lerwick?-Yes. I now produce a list of all the people employed by Mr. Leask in that way. There are about 60 of them altogether, including persons of 12 to upwards of 50.

11,235. For how many months in the year are these persons employed?-I should say that on an average taking one thing with another, curing the fish and turning them over, they are employed for about five months in the year, from May to December; but they are only employed at intervals, not regularly. They are employed regularly for part of May and for June, July, August, and September, and sometimes part of October. After that we have to employ them occasionally in turning the fish.

11,236. When you employ one of these persons at the beginning of the year, is it the ordinary practice to open an account in his name in the ledger?-We don't care about opening accounts with them at all. We prefer to settle with them every Saturday.

11,237. What is the nature of the engagement with them? Is it for weekly wages, or for a fee?-It is for weekly wages. We pay them from 7d. a day upwards; 1s. a day is the regular wage for a woman working among the fish, or for a strong boy.

11,238. In your establishment in Lerwick, is any payment made by way of beach fees?-No; we pay all by daily or weekly wages, and Saturday evening is the pay.

11,239. Do all these parties take payment in cash every Saturday?-We prefer to pay them in cash; but, of course, if they have taken supplies or provisions during the week we must be paid for them. Some of them do take supplies, because they could not live without them.

11,240. When they take supplies in that way, are their names entered each week in the day-book?-Not in the day-book, but in a book which we keep for the purpose, what we call our work-book.

11,241. In what way is it kept?-We simply charge them with what provisions they get.

11,242. Is there a ledger account in that work-book for each person?-Yes.

11,243. In it the provisions which they get are entered, and I suppose also soft goods if they get any?-They very seldom take soft goods; it is only provisions. These are entered in the book as they are got, and the account is settled on the Saturday evening, except in one or two extravagant cases where the people are in debt. In that case, we simply put their work to their credit, and don't balance at all until the end of the season.

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11,244. If you don't make a balance until the end of the season, may you not have some difficulty in restricting their supplies within proper limits?-Of course, we can always tell how they stand, because we are keeping a check upon their accounts, but sometimes we find it pretty hard to keep such people in check. We far rather prefer paying cash on the Saturday evening than having accounts.

11,245. But you don't always do that?-No, we cannot do it because the people cannot live without supplies as a general rule; perhaps there may be some exceptions.

11,246. But in the majority of cases you say the people have accounts?-Yes.

11,247. In the list you have given in, there are the names of about eighty people: are these all the people employed in your curing establishments?-No; there are a good many employed incidentally besides these. The names I have given are only those of the people are employed most regularly.

11,248. How are these people paid who are employed incidentally?-We never employ any one to work for goods. The understanding is that they are to be paid in money; and they are paid in money, unless they have supplied themselves with articles from the shop, for which, of course, we must be paid.

11,249. In what way are the engagements with these parties made?-When they ask for employment we tell them to go to the superintendent, and if he requires them he takes them and fixes their wages. He very likely tries them for a day, or perhaps for a week, to see how they are to get on, and then he tells them what their wages are to be.

11,250. In what way is the understanding expressed to them that they are to be paid in cash at the end of each week?-They know very well they will get their wages in cash, unless they take stuff from the shop before the end of the week. It is cash that is always the understanding. We don't wish them to take goods at all, and we prefer that they should not take any.

11,251. Do they ever get cash in the course of the week?-Very often.

11,252. To what extent?-Of course their wages are not a great deal, and it cannot be to a great extent. They sometimes get 1s. perhaps during the week; sometimes more and sometimes less.

11,253. But they always get goods when they want them so long as they are in your employ?-Not always. In one or two cases we have had to refuse goods.

11,254. Is not that really a payment of their wages in goods if they choose to take them all in goods?-I don't think so, because we don't wish them to take all in goods.

11,255. But, in fact, you don't pay them the money?-In such a case we don't pay them the money.

11,256. If there is any money left to receive at the end of the week, how do you pay it?-If they choose to go to the shop and take goods, we must pay ourselves for these goods. They cannot expect to get both goods and money too; but what we pay is money, and if they choose to take goods, that is their own fault.

11,257. But in fact, they are not paid in money?-I think that, in fact, they are paid in money, because they may get the money from the office and take it back again to the shop, as they do in some cases.

11,258. Do they sometimes get the money at the office?-Yes, and sometimes they pay it back into the shop; but, of course we deduct the amount of the accounts from what they have to receive.

11,259. I suppose it is very seldom that they get the money in the office and pay it back to the shop?-That is done in a good many cases.

11,260. Why do they do that if they have an account?-Because if they have a balance to get it is paid to them in money, and very likely what money they get is spent by them in the shop.

11,261. Do you mean that when they are settled with the end of the week they get the balance they have receive in money and spend it in the shop?-Yes, they very often, do that. If they require to spend it at all, they very likely spend it where they know they can get the best value.

11,262. Of the eighty people mentioned in the list you have handed in, how many may there be under fifteen years of age?-There are very few under fifteen; think only two or three.

11,263. Are all the rest of the males under eighteen or twenty?- Not all. The carpenters, of course, are married men and have families; but most of the people in the list are women; we have very few boys.

11,264. Have the carpenters, the sailmakers and riggers all credit accounts with you?-Yes.

11,265. Out of the fish-curers, nineteen appear to be males?-Yes, men and boys. I think there are four men, and the others are all grown-up lads, except two or three young boys.

11,266. And the women may be of all ages?-Yes. With regard to the weekly settlement with them, what I said had reference to those living in the town; but we have about twenty living in Whiteness, eight or ten miles distant, and these are only paid monthly.

11,267. Where do they get their supplies?-They live with their own families, and they don't require to buy provisions like people living in town; but if they need anything they come to us for it.

11,268. I understand Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes; he owned eight fishing vessels that went to Faroe last year. He did not have so many in previous years.

11,269. Has he an interest in any others as a partner of any company?-He has no interest in any others, but he acted as agent for other two.

11,270. What is the nature of the engagement that is made with the fishermen who go to Faroe?-The Faroe fishing is a joint speculation between the owner of the vessel and the crew. The owner supplies the ship, thoroughly equipped for the voyage, and furnishes sufficient salt to cure the fish, with all other necessary materials; and he also supplies the crew, with one pound of bread per day.

11,271. Does he supply all the lines required?-That is a different affair. What I have mentioned is his portion of the supplies-the ship and one pound of bread per man per day, and the salt; but the salt is deducted from the proceeds of the fishing as part of the expenses of curing. The owner also supplies the men with what advances they require in the way of lines, hooks, clothes, and stores.

11,272. These, however, are not supplied by the owner, but merely advanced by him?-Yes. All that the owner supplies is the ship, equipped for sea and biscuit at the rate of one pound per man per day. The men supply themselves with small stores, such as tea, coffee, butcher-meat, and anything they require. They also furnish lines and hooks, and what clothing they require. The owner puts the salt on board; generally about 20 tons, and sometimes as high as 30 tons, according to the size of the vessel.

11,273. What proportion does the salt put on board bear to the total capacity of the vessel?-One ton of salt is expected to cure one ton of fish.

11,274. Do you not put on board a larger supply of salt in order to allow for waste?-We generally put as much salt as the vessel can stow, after being filled up with water-casks, oil-casks, bread, ballast, and so on.

11,275. What are the oil-casks for?-To preserve the livers of the fish. They are put into these casks, and made into oil after the vessel has returned.

11,276. Are the lines, and hooks, and small stores, which are supplied by the men, generally taken from the merchant as outfitter?-Yes.

11,277. And they are charged against the men in their accounts?- Yes.

11,278. At the end of the season, when the men come to settle, how is the arrangement with them carried out?-The men, of course, get all the money due to them.

11,279. What number of men may there be on board one of these smacks?-With one vessel we have had crew of 18, and with another we have had a crew of 11. The crews vary between these numbers; and of [Page 277] these men, perhaps two-thirds are what are called full-shares-men; perhaps one-sixth will be half-shares-men, and the other sixth quarter-shares-men. I now show the account of the 'Anaconda' for last year.

11,280. I see that the vessel's proportion of the fish was one half: that goes to the owner?-Yes.

11,281. How many men were in the crew?-Sixteen.

11,282. Of these, 13 had full shares and were called shares-men?-Yes.

11,283. John Isbister had a three-quarter share?-Yes. He would perhaps be an ordinary seaman, not an able seamen. The able seamen have full shares, and the others have less, according to their quality.

11,284. I see that three men had three-quarter shares, while one had as low as a half?-Yes; in some cases they have only been on one voyage. The smacks generally make two voyages, and sometimes three. Perhaps after the first voyage, a boy or a man may be ill, and has to leave, and his proportion of the fish is ascertained at the time when he leaves.

11,285. Are the hooks, and lines, and outfit, supplied to the men, deducted from their own account, or from the account of the crew?-They are deducted in each man's own private account; each man has his own account, separate from the account of the crew. There is one account kept for what has been got on behalf of the company, and then everything else is put into the account for the men.

11,286. There is a statement made out for each ship annually, showing the gross fish and oil, and also the charge, consisting of various things?-Yes.

11,287. But the gross fish and oil, as entered here [showing], must appear somewhere else in detail?-We have another book in which we put the amount of the weight. The skipper knows the number of the fish, but he cannot tell their weight until they are dried. When they are cured, the amount of the fish is entered in the book.

11,288. And the estimate made of each man's share is made after weighing the dry fish?-Yes; or after selling the dry fish. The fish are weighed in the store, and then sold, perhaps in October or November; and as soon as the price is ascertained, the account is made up.

11,289. In the case of the 'Caroline' in 1870, the statement shows £481, 0s. 3d. as the total proceeds of the sale of her fish?-Yes.

11,290. The first thing you do after having ascertained the total proceeds of the sale of the fish is to deduct from that the charges?-Yes.

11,291. You charge these as curing 281/6 tons at 50s. per ton, dry fish, £70, 8s. 4d.?-Yes; that includes the salt.

11,292. 'Removing to Lerwick, 5s.-£7, 0s. 10d.?'-Yes; the fish were at Whiteness and had to be brought here.

11,293. 'Master's fee, 6s. 3d. per ton?'-Yes. I should explain that the masters generally have 10s. per ton, and the mates 2s. 6d.; but in this case the master and the mate agreed to go equal, and divide the extras together, so that instead of 10s. and 2s. 6d., they had 6s. 3d. each.

11,294. That was £8, 16s. 11/2d. to each?-Yes.

11,295. The second mate's extra of 1s. 6d. came to £2, 2s. 3d., and then the score money is charged at £24, 19s. 6d.: what is that?- The men have 6d. for every score of fish they catch, as an encouragement to them to do their utmost. That sum is taken off the gross, and is divided among the men according to the number of scores each has taken.

11,296. The next entry is, 'Bait at Shetland £6, and Faroe £5, 2s. 8d.?'-Yes; the master employs people to get bait for him here and at Faroe.

11,297. He does so at the expense of the whole partnership?-Yes.

11,298. These charges being deducted; there remains £347, 14s. 7d., the vessel's proportion of which is £173, 17s. 4d., and the rest is divided among the crew according to their different shares?- Yes.

11,299. Is the charge of 50s. per ton for curing, a uniform charge?-In some years it is higher. It has cost us as much as 55s., but 50s. is the uniform rate.

11,300. Is that charge according to an agreement made at the beginning of the season with the men?-The agreement at the commencement of the season is, that all necessary expenses shall be deducted.

11,301. Then, if the merchant finds that the expense curing is greater than 50s., is he entitled to increase that charge in the final account with the men?-Yes. The men are only entitled to one half of the net proceeds of the speculation.

11,302. Are your agreements with the men, at the commencement of the season, in writing or in printing?-They are in writing, never in printing.

11,303. But you do enter into a written agreement which each man signs?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes the agreement does not bind them at all. We can get no damages from them if they choose to break through it; it is simply a moral agreement, not a legal one at all.

11,304. What is the use of having an agreement if it is not binding?-Just to show their proportion of the speculation, and f or the sake of making up the half-yearly returns for the Board of Trade.

11,305. Have you a regular form of agreement?-I cannot say that it is uniform; it has to be altered in some years.

11,306. Do you write out one annually for each smack?-No; it is all one agreement, which is applicable to the whole of them; there is no difference whatever. I shall send one of these agreements.

.

SCALLOWAY; TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 1872

GILBERT TULLOCH, examined.

11,307. Are you the shopkeeper at Scalloway for Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I am.

11,308. They have a curing establishment here, and buy a quantity of fish?-Yes.

11,309. They also have a shop in which goods of all descriptions are sold?-Yes, all that are generally sold to fishermen.

11,310. Have you the entire management of their business here?- Yes.

11,311. You take delivery of the fish from the men, and enter the quantities received in the fishing book?-I settle with the men for the fish as I receive them, and I charge the amount against my employers.

11,312. You are now speaking of the winter fishing?-Yes.

11,313. In that fishing each transaction is separate and distinct?- Yes. The men are paid over the counter as they deliver the fish, for all that we purchase in Scalloway. They don't go into any account at all. Where the fish are delivered at other places, they are settled for at Lerwick.

11,314. Then with the regular summer fishing you have nothing to do?-No; Messrs. Hay have curers at the islands for that.

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11,315. They have factors at Burra and other places who receive the fish, and the settlement for them takes place at Lerwick?- Yes.

11,316. Your duties consist in managing the business the shop, and selling the goods there, and in purchasing fish or oil which the men voluntarily bring to you?-Yes.

11,317. You have nothing to do with the men who are engaged to fish in the home fishing?-Nothing.

11,318. When you take delivery of a quantity of fish from the men, is no part of that entered in your books?-If the men have taken up advances before, then these enter the books; and that is done occasionally.

11,319. But when it does enter your books, it is entered as a separate transaction at the time in the fisherman's account in the ledger?-Yes.

11,320. That is to say, you have a ledger for the shop transactions in which each man has an account?-Yes; and if he wishes any part of his fish to go to his account, to help in clearing it off, I enter it there.

11,321. But when you put it to his account, the quantity of fish delivered at the particular time is stated, with the price, and the sum is put into the money column?-Yes.

11,322. Have you many transactions of that kind with the men at Burra?-Yes; principally in winter.

11,323. In spring and summer do they sometimes come to you with fish?-They deliver them at the stations, and they are settled for at Lerwick, with Messrs. Hay.

11,324. But do they sometimes endeavour to carry out transaction with you for ready money or for goods?-Occasionally; when they require it, they will come to us with a few fish, to get groceries or any things they want. They are not prohibited from doing that if they wish it.

11,325. Messrs. Hay do not forbid them, when they are engaged for the season, to come to you for any supplies they may want, and to give their fish in exchange?-That is not forbidden, so far as I am aware.

11,326. And in these transactions with fishermen, from whatever place they come, is the payment generally made in goods or in money?-Part in both. They get what goods they want, and their balance is paid in cash. I cannot say that more is paid in goods or in cash.

11,327. Is not the great bulk of the fish paid for by out-takes?- Generally.

11,328. About how many men are entered in your ledger with whom you deal in that way?-I could not say exactly. They come from different places, and could not state the exact number.

11,329. They are not merely the men who are employed by Messrs. Hay for the summer fishing, but many others besides?- Yes.

11,330. Will you have 100 of these accounts in your ledger?-I could not say exactly.

11,331. Is there it separate ledger kept for the Burra men?-Yes.

11,332. Do they keep all their accounts here?-They keep accounts with me for all their dealings here, but they deal both here and in Lerwick.

11,333. In what season of the year do you make settlement with the men who have accounts in the way you have described?-The Burra men all settle at Lerwick. They only get their advances from me, and they settle at the end of the year with my employers.

11,334. Is a note of their advances handed in to Lerwick?-Yes.

11,335. Do you settle here with others than Burra men who deal with you?-No; they are all settled with at Lerwick. The whole of the accounts are settled there, unless any man wishes to pay any provisions he has had himself. He has it in his option to pay these things to me if he likes; but that is only done in very rare cases.

11,336. Do you sometimes pay money for fish here?-Sometimes.

11,337. In what cases does that occur?-In the case of it neutral man who is not connected with the Lerwick business.

11,338. Then it is only the men who are in the regular employment of Messrs. Hay who settle at Lerwick?-Yes.

11,339. When you have a customer who fishes independently, or for another firm, and who runs an account in your book, he settles with you here?-Yes. He keeps an account with me, and I settle with him.

11,340. At what season of the year is that done?-It is generally at the end of the year, at the usual settling time in Shetland.

11,341. How many men of that description do you suppose there may be in your books,-men who either sell their own fish all the year round, or sell their fish to you cured?-There are very few of them.

11,342. Most of your customers are in the regular employment of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

11,343. And most of them, I suppose, including the Burra men, are bound by agreement for the year to deliver their fish to that firm?-They are not bound by agreement, so far as I know.

11,344. But they are engaged for the summer to fish for the firm, in the boats of Messrs. Hay?-They are.

11,345. The bulk of the accounts kept in your shop will be with such men?-Yes.

11,346. You were not asked to bring your books?-No.

11,347. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash you pay to these few men with whom you settle here?-I could not give an exact account of it. I have bought about £100 worth of fish, ling and cod, since May last up to this date.

11,348. Are you the largest purchaser of fish in that way in Scalloway?-I could not say; there are other fish-buyers here.

11,349. There are other parties who buy fish in the same way, and some other parties who employ boats of their own for the summer fishing?-There are a few, but not many.

11,350. Mr. Nicholson has some?-Yes.

11,351. And Mr. Tait has one?-I suppose he has but he does not do much in that way.

11,352. Is the amount you have stated the ordinary amount which you purchase during the same period each year?-It is sometimes more and sometimes less. It just depends on the success of the fishing.

11,353. How much of that would be purchased in the summer and autumn?-Not much in the summer. The greater part will be purchased in winter.

11,354. In summer the men are delivering their fish at Burra, so that less fish are brought to you at that time?-Yes.

11,355. Are your supplies of goods got from Lerwick from Messrs. Hay?-Some come from Lerwick, and some come direct from the south.

11,356. Are they invoiced to you at wholesale price, or at the price at which you are expected to sell them?-They are invoiced at the wholesale price and I fix the retail price myself.

11,357 What price do you pay for fish to the neutral man who brings them to you in that way?-It is not always the same; sometimes it is more and sometimes less.

11,358. What has been the price this season?-It depends upon the size of the fish we get. For ling and large cod I paid 6s. a cwt up to the commencement of this year, and since then I have paid 7s.

11,359. Do you generally pay that in money?-No; part in goods, and part in money.

11,360. Do your books show in what proportion the payments consist of money, and in what proportion of goods?-We keep no account of what is paid directly over the counter. I charge my employers with the amount of fish which I purchase from these men, and settle with the men at once as I get them.

11,361. Are the fish brought to the counter?-No, they are weighed in the store. There are people there for that purpose.

11,362. When you are weighing them and taking delivery of them, do you ask the man what he wants?-Yes. He gets whatever goods he wants.

11,363. Then when you have taken delivery you go with him to the shop, and give him either goods or money?-Yes; we give him the goods, and then the balance in cash.

[Page 279]

11,364. If it is not convenient for you to go yourself, suppose you have a shopman who will act in the shop in your stead?-We have a man for weighing, the fish, and he comes up with the account of the fish he has got, and then we settle with the men according to the weight which he gives in to us.

11,365. Does the man who takes in the fish enter their weight in any book at the time?-No; he marks it down upon a board, or anything, and comes up to the shop as soon as he has weighed for a boat's crew, and gives in the weight. We enter that in our book, and pay the price to the men.

11,366. Does the man who weighs the fish always come up to the shop?-Yes.

11,367. He does not send a note of the weight he always comes himself?-No, he always comes himself.

11,368. Do you ever pay the price altogether in cash-Sometimes; if the men want no goods we pay it in cash.

11,369. Is that a usual thing?-It is not usual; but sometimes it is the case.

11,370. Is there any particular reason for paying it all in cash when that is done?-If the party wants no goods, then he gets the cash.

11,371. Or if he wants the cash for any particular purpose?-Yes.

11,372. I suppose he will generally tell you if he wants the cash for any particular reason?-Sometimes he does.

11,373. And you make no objection to giving it to him?-No, not if he wants it.

11,374. Do you give him the same price in cash as in goods?- Quite the same; it makes no difference; we have a fixed price.

11,375. Is it entirely in the choice of the men whether they take goods or cash?-Yes.

11,376. But is it not part of the system that the payment is for the most part taken in goods?-That depends upon the parties themselves.

11,377. Do you mean to say, that if the fishermen were all to combine and ask for their payment in cash, they would get it, or would that necessitate any change in your system of carrying on business?-I suppose they would get it; but we might not have enough cash to pay out such large sums as that. We are not near any bank, and we might not have sufficient cash in hand for all that we required, if the payment was wholly in cash.

11,378. Would you find it inconvenient to pay for these fish altogether in cash?-Yes, unless my employers were to give me sufficient cash to meet their demands.

11,379. Your arrangements are made upon the footing, I suppose, that the bulk of the payments are to be taken in goods?-That is understood, although there is no arrangement made about it.

11,380. There is no arrangement made with the men, but it is understood that a great proportion of the transactions are to be settled for in goods?-If the men get as good articles from us as they can get from any other party, I don't see why they should not take payments in that way.

11,381. It might very well happen, I suppose, that even if you did pay in cash, the man would take his cash and spend it at your shop?-Yes; and sometimes that is done.

11,382. But, in point of fact, your business arrangements are made upon the footing that the great amount of the fish sales are to be paid for in goods?-There is no arrangement at all.

11,383. But your own business arrangements are made on that footing? You don't keep a sufficient supply of cash to meet the requirements of a ready-money trade?-No, that has not been the practice.

11,384. Then is it not an exceptional case, and a mere favour to the fisherman, to pay him in money?-It is in his own option to take either goods or money. If he wants the goods he gets them, and if not we pay him in cash.

11,385. But is it not the case that a man is not paid in cash unless he expressly asks for it?-He is not paid in cash unless he wishes it. He gets whatever goods he requires, and the balance is paid over to him in cash.

11,386. The first thing settled between you, after fixing the price, is what goods the man is to take?-Yes.

11,387. And after that, if there is any balance over, it is paid to him in cash?-Yes.

11,388. But, as a rule, he takes out his goods first?-Yes.

11,389. Do you suppose that three-fourths of the value of the fish sold are paid for in goods?-I could hardly say. We never keep any account of that.

11,390. What is the usual quantity of fish brought to you at one time in winter from one boat?-It varies very much.

11,391. Will it be two or three cwts.?-Sometimes more, and sometimes less.

11,392. Would five cwt. be a good catch for it day in winter?- Yes, it would be a good catch.

11,393. Are there many ling caught in winter?-Not many. There are very few tusk caught then. They are chiefly cod, and some ling. There are three classes of cod. There is a large class, and a small class, and a middle size, and the price is different. The price for small cod is now 5s. per cwt., but the large cod that can be sent to Spain are always paid for higher. The price for them is 7s. now.

11,394. Suppose a man were bringing five cwt. of cod to you, he would get, I suppose, about 30s. for it, if it were equally composed of large and small cod?-Yes. That would be divided among the men in the boat,-say three or four men.

11,395. That would be about 7s. 6d. each?-Yes, supposing the price to be at the rate you have mentioned.

11,396. Would it be usual for the man to get the whole of that 7s. 6d. in goods?-That would depend upon himself. Perhaps he might require two-thirds of it in goods, and the other third in cash.

11,397. Would 2s. 6d. be about the largest sum would get in money upon such a catch of fish?-It might be more or less.

11,398. But he would sometimes get it all in goods, I suppose?- Sometimes.

11,399. Do you remember any case in which he got it all in cash?-There have been several cases of that kind. I was looking in the shop books before I came here, and I picked up some papers in the shop showing how much cash they get. [The witness handed in papers containing the following accounts:-

.

11s. 71/2d. Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., £0 1 61/2 Loaf, 4d.; sugar, 11/2d. 0 0 51/2 Soap, 21/2d., sulphur, 11/2d., 0 0 4 Soda, 11/2d.; cotton, 1s. 6d. 0 1 71/2 Cotton, 0 0 3 Porter, 5d.; biscuit, 3d.; cash, 6s. 9d., 0 7 5 £0 11 71/2

. 11s. 71/2d. Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 61/2d.; £0 1 101/2 Tobacco, 8d.; oatmeal, 1s. 3d., 0 1 11 Soap, 21/2d.; sund. 51/2d., 0 0 8 Cotton, 11d., 0 0 11 £0 5 41/2 Cash, 0 6 3 £0 11 71/2

. 8s. 3d. Tobacco, £0 1 0 Tea, 0 0 8 Cash, 0 6 7 £0 8 3

[Page 280]

. 8s. 3d. Oatmeal, 1s. 101/2d.; tobacco, 6d. £0 2 41/2 Stamps. 2d.; paper, 21/2d., 0 0 41/2 Soap and sod, 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., 0 0 61/2 Shoe-brush, 6d, 0 0 6 Handkf., 10d.; loaf, 4d.; syrup, 3d., 0 1 5 Soda and thd., 11/2d. 0 0 11/2 Acct., 1s.; cash, 1s. 11d., 0 2 11

<P. Lesslie>. 17s. 5d. Rum, 6d.; cash, 1s., £0 1 6 Do. 9d.; tea, 1s. 2d., 0 1 11 Tea, 1s. 2d.; sugar, 6d., 0 1 8 £0 5 1 Cash, . . 0 12 4 £0 17 5]

These are notes made at the time when the settlement was made with the men.

11,400. Do you remember when these settlements took place?- No. I merely found these papers in the shop, and brought them here. It may have been about three or four weeks ago, or it may have been longer.

11,401. Has there not been a much larger amount of cash paid in these cases than is usual in such transactions?-It is larger than in some cases.

11,402. And you might have found other slips or notes in which the whole amount was taken out in goods?-I don't know about that. But that is the way in which we settle, and the fish are afterwards charged to my employers.

11,403. Is it not often the case that there is not more than 1s. paid in cash on a transaction of 8s. or 10s.?-Sometimes that is the case.

11,404. Is it not oftener under 1s. than over it?-I could hardly say about that.

11,405. Is it not oftener under 1s. 6d. than over it?-I should say that it is.

11,406. Can you say that, in half the cases that occur, there is a cash balance paid at all?-No. I would not say that there was so little cash paid as that.

11,407. But you could not say to the contrary?-I could not say either the one way or the other.

11,408. In the case of a separate and distinct sale of fish, such as we have been speaking of, the price is paid in full, and there are no deductions of any kind to be made?-None.

11,409. The boats and the lines are the men's?-Yes, unless some of them may have got credit for their boats and lines.

11,410. Do you hire out boats for the winter fishing?-No; the men have boats of their own.

11,411. But they may have got the lines at your shop, and they may be standing against them there?-Yes, either standing against them, or they may have settled for them with Hay & Co.

11,412. In that case you may retain the price of the winter fish to meet the price of the lines or boat?-Yes, if the men wish that to be done.

11,413. Or if you have a heavy debt against the men, you may retain the price of the fish whether the men choose or not?-That is never done by me.

11,414. Has there never been an arrangement or understanding by which a portion of the fish delivered to you in that way is retained on account of the lines or boats supplied to the men?-No, not in winter.

11,415. Have either you or Messrs. Hay & Co. any interest at all in the boats used in the winter or spring fishing?-I have none. I have only a share of one herring boat. I receive a salary from Messrs. Hay.

11,416. Have Messrs. Hay any interest in the boats used in the winter fishing?-No; the boats belong to the men, and they have them on their own account.

11,417. Have you an interest in several of the boats engaged in the summer fishing?-No. As I have said, I have only one share of a herring boat.

11,418. You have no share in any of the smacks that go to the Faroe fishing?-No.

11,419. Are you not part-owner of some boats employed in the summer fishing?-No.

11,420. Were you ever so?-No. I have never had any share of any boat except the herring boat that I have a share in now.

11,421. Have you the management of Messrs. Hay's curing establishment here?-Yes.

11,422. There is a large curing establishment here, with beaches?-Yes.

11,423. How many people are employed there in the fishing season?-It depends on the success of the fishing in the summer, and the amount of fish we get.

11,424. How many were employed last year?-I could not say exactly. Perhaps about ten or a dozen were employed about the beaches at Scalloway.

11,425. Had you the superintendence of the beaches at Burra?- No; there were men appointed for that.

11,426. With regard to the ten or a dozen employed at Scalloway, were those men, women and boys?-Yes.

11,427. Were they paid weekly wages?-Yes. They were paid every Saturday, either by me or at the shop.

11,428. Were they paid in money every Saturday?-No, they had to get supplies during the week; and at the end of the week any balance they had was paid in cash.

11,429. Was there generally a balance due?-It was very rarely that there was. They had generally to get supplies to the full amount of their wages.

11,430. Is payment made to them in the shop at the counter?- Yes. Their advances are entered against them in the book, and then their wages are placed to their credit and if they have anything to get it is given to them.

11,431. Is there a separate ledger account for each of these parties?-Yes, every one has an account, and when he gets advances these are put to that account.

11,432. Can you say that any money ever passes at any settlement with these beach people?-Sometimes there has been a little, but not a great deal.

11,433. Will their average wages be 8s. or 9s. a week?-Not so much. In summer the women get 10d. a day, and in winter 1s. We have a few people employed in winter, but not so many as in summer.

11,434. Are you engaged in the hosiery business at all?-No.

11,435. Do you purchase any quantity of butter and eggs from the people in the district?-Not a great quantity. There are no cattle in the village to give butter, but I buy a small quantity from people in the district.

11,436. Is that paid for in goods?-Yes.

11,437. Do the Burra people bring butter and eggs to you sometimes?-Very little. They sometimes bring a few eggs in summer, and they always get goods in return for them.

11,438. Do the Burra people bring all their eggs to you?-No; they are at liberty to sell them to any person they choose.

11,439. When settling time comes, what have you to do with the men who have accounts in your books?-I send in a note of each man's account to Messrs. Hay, at Lerwick.

11,440. Has the man checked his account in any way before you send it in?-If they choose, they can get their accounts read over to them. Some of them have pass-books, while others have only their accounts read over.

11,441. Do they all get them read over to there?-Generally they do. If they have any doubt about their account, they get it read over; but I have very few disputes of that sort with them.

11,442. Is it the general practice to read over the accounts to the men?-If they wish it.

11,443. But do they generally wish it?-Some of them do, and some do not.

11,444. I suppose the majority do not?-Yes.

11,445. Are they rather careless about these things?-Yes.

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11,446. Suppose you read over a man's account to him, and he objects to any of the items, how could he get that corrected?- Sometimes a man may forget, and he would come to recollect afterwards; but it is very seldom that that occurs with us.

11,447. If he has not a pass-book, has he any means of checking his account at all?-Yes; by his own memory.

11,448. But when you have an entry in your own book, and he says it is wrong, do you correct that entry according to his memory?- No; we would not do that.

11,449. You try to convince him that he is in error?-Yes, and we generally succeed.

11,450. Do you always succeed?-I would say so but we have had very few cases of that sort.

11,451. Don't you think it would be much better if the men would all take pass-books?-Yes; it would prevent any doubt about these matters.

11,452. But I suppose it would give you a good deal more trouble?-It would.

11,453. Is there anything to hinder you from paying ready money when you are settling the price of fish as they are delivered?-If the law was that, we would have to do it the same as others.

11,454. But is there anything to prevent you from doing it, although there is no law on the subject?-There is nothing to prevent us.

11,455. Would it not facilitate your business a good deal?-Yes.

11,456. You could carry on your business with less trouble to yourself ,-only the men might perhaps spend the money at another shop, instead of yours?-Yes.

11,457. Is the price paid for winter fish, when they are bought by you in small quantities, less than is usually paid for summer fish #at settling-time?-No, it is the same price.

11,458. Have you the management of the oyster fishing here?- There are very few of them caught. I have not the management of that, but I sometimes buy a few.

11,459. Do you sometimes buy lobsters?-Not many.

11,460. Are they all paid for in goods in the same manner, and to the same extent, that you have mentioned?-Yes, just in the same way as the others.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, LAURENCE MONCRIEFF, examined.

11,461. You are a baker and provision merchant in Scalloway?-I am.

11,462. You are not a fish-merchant at all?-No.

11,463. Do you purchase hosiery to some extent?-I purchase fancy hosiery to a small extent,-principally veils and shawls, and things of that kind.

11,464. Do you usually pay for it in goods from your shop?-Yes.

11,465. Do you pay for it to any extent in money?-No. I never give money for hosiery.

11,466. Is it always understood that people selling hosiery at your shop are to take goods in exchange?-That is always understood.

11,467. Are you often asked for money?-No. It is always the understanding that they are to take goods but I have been asked once or twice for money.

11,468. Do you employ any people to knit with your wool?-Yes.

11,469. Are they paid in the same way?-Yes.

11,470. Are they employed entirely in knitting, or do they sometimes work at other things?-Some of them depend entirely, or almost entirely, on knitting; but when they require money for their rent or for any particular article which they cannot get for knitting, then, I suppose they have to work at something else.

11,471. Or perhaps they sell their knitting to a shop where they can get what they want although you do not deal in it?-Yes.

11,472. They may go to Lerwick and sell it for soft goods?-They may; but I keep a small assortment of soft goods.

11,473. Therefore they can get most of the articles they want in your shop?-Yes.

11,474. If they cannot get the articles they want are you aware whether they have sometimes been obliged to sell the goods they have got for hosiery, in order to procure what they want?-A case or two of that kind has come before me. I remember one occasion, when I gave a woman some provisions for some soap or something, when she was in a difficulty for the provisions; but that is the only case of the kind that I remember clearly about. Perhaps there may have been more.

11,475. What was the nature of that case?-I suppose she had bartered her knitting for the soap in some place. She was requiring provisions, and could not get them, and she exchanged the soap to me for provisions.

11,476. Was that long ago?-It is some time ago but I don't remember the exact time.

11,477. Did that case strike you as being in any way peculiar or extraordinary?-No. Very few of the hosiery dealers keep provisions, so that at the time the woman had no other way of getting them.

11,478. What price did you give the woman for the soap which she sold to you?-I think I gave her as near my own selling price as I could. It was a small quantity only that she offered to me and it was not worth making any difference upon it. That is generally what I do in cases of that kind which happen to come before me.

11,479. Do you generally give them as near as possible your own selling price for the soap?-Yes.

11,480. Just enough to allow yourself a little commission for your trouble?-No, I don't think I could have any commission on the like of that; at least I don't make a practice of charging a commission in cases of that kind. I don't like to do it if it can be avoided, but in cases of great necessity I sometimes find it my duty to do so.

11,481. You sometimes find it your duty to relieve people's necessities in that way?-Yes, sometimes, if I can manage it.

11,482. But don't you give them a lower price than that which they have nominally purchased the soap for?-I don't think I do that.

11,483. Do you not buy the soap so as to make some little profit upon it when you re-sell it?-The amount of the transactions in that way is so small that I can hardly say. I try to avoid doing it at all; and unless in a case of extreme necessity, I would not do it. It is merely in a case where it is required in order to save life that I do anything of the kind.

11,484. How many women do you usually employ in knitting with your own wool?-I have had very few employed for some time back, perhaps only two or three.

11,485. Do they keep accounts with you for what they want?- Very few of them. I just pay them at the time; but I have a few accounts that I run with some of them.

11,486. Are these accounts both with women who knit with your wool, and with women who knit with their own wool and sell their goods to you?-It is principally with those who knit with my wool that I have accounts.

11,487. What was the name of the person from whom you bought the soap on the occasion you have mentioned?-I think it was either Margaret or Catherine Irvine.

11,488. Was that a very exceptional case?-I should think so.

11,489. Have you not frequently bought from women the goods which they had got in shops at Lerwick?-No, not frequently. That is the only case I remember of distinctly. I remember something being said about the women bringing goods for sale at other times, but I have no distinct recollection about that. It would hardly do for me to make a practice of that, because I have to live and support my family by my profits.

[Page 282]

11,490. But if the women were disposed to sell the goods to you at such a price as would enable you to derive a profit on your re-sale of them, that would be quite legitimate and fair?-Yes; but they could not do that.

11,491. Why?-Because it would cause them a considerable loss. I suppose the goods are priced at an advance before they get them, and they could not afford to sell them to me at a less price than they had paid for them themselves.

11,492. You said you had heard of other cases being mentioned, in which women had offered their goods for sale: what have you heard about that?-I have heard some of my family speaking about the women getting their goods exchanged for provisions, or something of that kind.

11,493. Is your shop generally attended by yourself, or by some of your family?-It is generally attended by mny brother-in-law; he is not here.

11,494. Can you say that he has not bought goods in that way from knitters?-I think not. I don't think he would do that without letting me know about it.

11,495. Do you know of any person here who purchases goods in that way from women who have got them for their hosiery?- There may be such persons but I am not aware of any one who makes a trade of it, or who could make a trade of it. There may be some who do that in order to oblige a woman or to relieve her necessities, but I don't think they could make a practice of it. I have heard of Mrs. Tait doing it in that way.

11,496. Would you show me where you keep your accounts with these women?-Yes. [Produces book.] It is only a small part of that book which I use for that purpose. This [showing] is an account of a woman who dresses for me. Besides what is entered to her account, she is sometimes paid by goods which do not appear in the book at all.

11,497. I see here an entry: 'To amount from line:' do you give lines?-I sometimes give a line to her when I do not care about entering it in the book. I should like better to pay her at once what I was due to her, if I could possibly do so.

11,498. What was the purpose of giving the line?-Just as a security.

11,499. She did not want the goods at the time, and you did not want to open an account?-No.

11,500. You would rather that these women would take the goods at once than have the trouble of keeping an account with them?- Yes.

11,501. What was the form of the line you gave?-It was just a credit note, bearing the name of the party and the amount for which they had to get credit from me.

11,502. Is the amount of that note understood to be paid in goods or in money?-It is never understood to be paid in money. I could not give the same price in money as I could give in goods.

11,503. Does the line express whether it is to be paid in goods or in money?-No.

11,504. Do you issue many of these lines?-Not many; very few require them. They generally take out goods to the full amount at once.

11,505. How did you happen to enter that line in your book?-The woman was getting fully more work from me than she could take out in goods at once, and she preferred to continue working for me and to get things for her family as she required them.

11,506. I see that the bulk of the entries in these accounts are for provisions?-Yes, and for such other goods as we keep-tea, sugar, loaves, butter, meal, flour, soda and other things.

11,507. Where do you get your supplies of worsted?-Principally from Edinburgh or Leith.

11,508. Do you buy any Shetland worsted?-No; I cannot get it to buy.

11,509. Have you tried to get it and found it difficult?-Not often. It was only last spring that I began the hosiery trade at all.

11,510. Do you import all your worsted direct from Edinburgh, or do you get any of it through the Lerwick houses?-I get it all from a wholesale house in Edinburgh.

11,511. What is the quality of the worsted you get from there?-It is generally the finest quality, but not mohair. I don't deal in mohair at all. We generally use two qualities for veils, and these qualities are distinguished by numbers, but I don't remember the numbers just now. I buy it by the pound, and I think it costs me from 5s. to 8s. per pound.

11,512. Do you sell the worsted to knitters?-Yes, when I have an extra supply of it.

11,513. Are you paid for it in hosiery articles or in cash?-In either way; I give it for either when I do sell it. When they have a quantity of hosiery to sell, I prefer them to take an assortment of goods, because provisions are a thing that most people have very little profit upon. If they take the whole price in meal or in anything of that kind, I would not have much profit upon it.

11,514. You would rather have them to take some of the price in soft goods?-Not in soft goods, but in an assortment of groceries.

11,515. When a woman brings her hosiery to you first fix the price, and then, I suppose, you ask her what she wants?-Yes.

11,516. When you come down to a balance of 1d. or 2d, how do you settle that?-If they want nothing else, I often give them the balance in cash. It is the understanding that they are to take the price for their hosiery in goods, but still I don't hesitate to give them 1d. or 2d., or any small thing in money.

11,517. You may give them a penny, or a postage stamp, or a package of sweeties, or anything of that sort?-Yes.

11,518. Have you any accounts with fishermen?-No; they generally run their accounts at the places where they are employed. I would not like to run the risk of supplying them. I think those who are getting the benefit of their fishing ought to run the risk of giving them what supplies they want. I deal with a good many of them in ready money for bread and provisions; not to a very large extent but just in a general way.

11,519. Do you find that they always have ready money with which to pay you for provisions and bread?-Most of those who deal with me have.

11,520. Do you think businesses such as yours would be improved if the fishermen were paid in ready money for the fish they take?-It is possible they might.

11,521. Don't you think you would have a better chance of succeeding in business if the fishermen did not have such long credits?-It is very likely.

11,522. They would have more ready money in their hands throughout the year?-Some of them would.

11,523. At what season of the year have you the largest receipts in your ready money business?-In summer and harvest, I think; but I attribute that more to the weather than to anything else. The country people cannot get to the place in all weathers; they have often to come by sea, and then if they leave home at all it is generally just as easy for them to get to Lerwick as to go to Scalloway.

11,524. Still I don't see how that accounts for your ready money business being larger in summer and harvest than at other periods of the year?-The boats can come from the west side and from the islands in summer more readily than they can in winter, when, perhaps, they cannot get away for weeks. It is chiefly upon people in the country that my business depends. The village of Scalloway is small, and the business from it is also small, so that it is only when the weather is suitable that my customers from the country cannot in to deal with me.

11,525. Do you have a larger amount of business from your immediate neighbours in the spring than at other seasons?-No, I have not noticed that. The business is so mixed up that I can hardly say.

11,526. You don't think the fishermen round about you come to deal with you to a larger extent after settling time in spring than at other periods of the year?-I am not aware of that.

[Page 283]

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CLEMENTINA GREIG, examined.

11,527. You live at Braehead, Scalloway, with your sister?-Yes.

11,528. Your mother died about two years ago a very old woman?-Yes; she was 95.

11,529. Have you supported yourself for a long time by knitting?-Yes; I began to knit thirty-three years ago, and since then I have not earned a sixpence by anything else, except my own family work. My mother also depended on me.

11,530. What kind of knitting do you do?-Shawls and veils.

11,531. Have you ever got any money for your work?-I have sold several shawls and veils to gentlemen who were travelling through the country in July and August, and got money for them; but I never got a penny in all my life from any of the merchants in Lerwick. I was the first individual in Scalloway who commenced to knit, and I have taught many of the people here.

11,532. Do you knit with your own wool, or with worsted that is given out to you?-On several occasions, within the last three years, I have bought some Scotch worsted; but before that I always spun the wool myself, and sold my own goods. I never knitted a shawl or a veil for a merchant in my life.

11,533. Did you think it better to knit with your own material?-I think it paid a little better when we got a price for it, but it was very seldom that a sufficient price was given. For shawls that I used to get £1 for from gentlemen in the south, the merchants never offered me more than 17s. or 18s., and that was paid in goods.

11,534. Who did you knit most to?-To Mr. Robert Sinclair. I scarcely ever sold a shawl to any other merchant than him.

11,535. Have you sometimes asked him for money?-Yes. Two years ago, when my mother was dying, and my sister was brought in with a broken limb, I took a shawl to Lerwick, in order to get a doctor. I went to Mr. Sinclair with the shawl, and he asked what I wanted. I said I was selling it in a case of necessity, and that I wanted 18s., and he offered me 17s. I asked him, if he would give me a little money if I sold it to him for 17s., but he said he would not, and he rejected it. I sold the same shawl, when I came back, to Mr. Garriock, Reawick, and I got £1 for it in money from him.

11,536. Does Mr. Garriock buy shawls for sale?-No. He told me he had got an order from some ladies for such work; and generally when he gets an order he buys one or two of these things from me, and sends them off to his friends, but he is not a merchant.

11,537. The shawl which you sold for £1 would be a large fine shawl?-Yes. I have got as high as 25s. in money for them.

11,538. How long does it take you to make such a shawl?-When I spin the wool myself it takes me a month, but with clean worsted I will make it in about three weeks.

11,539. How many cuts does it take to make a shawl of that sort?-It takes 32 cuts of Shetland worsted to make a shawl of about 22 or 23 scores, 21/2 yards square.

11,540. Where do you buy the wool that you spin?-I often buy it in the shops in Lerwick when they have it to sell.

11,541. Do some of the merchants in Lerwick sell the wool?- Yes, when it comes in. The poor people who bring it from the country sell it for meal and goods, and the merchants send it out again. I have bought it from Mr. George Laurenson for the last six or seven years. He gets the best of it from Unst. His shop is in Lerwick, beside Mr. Sinclair's.

11,542. Do you buy that wool by the lb.?-Yes; we pay 1s. 6d. for the finest wool, and half pound of that makes a shawl. It will produce 32 or 33 cuts, and make such a shawl as I sold for £1. I last bought wool from Mr. Laurenson in July of last year. I got 11/2 lbs. at that time at 1s. 6d. a lb. When I am busy I buy some Scotch worsted and knit it too.

11,543. Is the Scotch worsted what is called Pyrenees wool?-Yes.

11,544. Where do you buy it?-From Mr. Sinclair but when we sell him a shawl he will not give us worsted back upon the shawl.

11,545. Not even Scotch worsted?-No. I must pay the money for worsted, whether it is Scotch or Shetland. The Scotch worsted sells by the oz., at 10d. or 1s., according to the fineness of thread. It takes 6 oz. of that worsted to make a shawl for which I will get £1.

11,546. Have you bought any Shetland worsted?-I have always bought the wool and spun it myself.

11,547. How long will the spinning of half-a-pound take?-It will take me a week to spin it sitting very close at it and sleeping very little.

11,548. Would it be cheaper to buy the Scotch worsted?-Yes; but articles made of it do not sell so well. The Shetland worsted is preferred, as being much better.

11,549. Do you think you will have a larger profit on a shawl, the wool for which you have been a week in spinning, and in knitting which you have been employed another four weeks, than on a shawl which you make of Scotch worsted?-Yes.

11,550. When you buy the Scotch worsted and make a shawl of it, how long will it take you to knit it?-I will make it in less than three weeks.

11,551. What will be the difference in the price which you get for the shawl at the end of that time?-When I have sold a shawl made of Scotch worsted to gentleman or lady who happened to be in the country in July or August I have got as much for it as for one made of Shetland worsted, because the one is as fine as the other, but they prefer the Shetland thread to the Scotch thread. The merchants in Lerwick will not buy a Scotch shawl from me. They put out worsted of that kind to be knitted for themselves, but they will not buy such things from us. They will only buy the real Shetland work.

11,552. Have you ever done any knitting in silk?-No.

11,553. Is it as a favour that the merchants sell you worsted when they do sell it?-No. They are quite willing to sell it if we have money to pay for it.

11,554. Have you asked for worsted in return for your hosiery?- Yes. I asked it from a Mr. Sinclair, and he would not give it. I have asked that both from himself and from some of the men in his shop, and they said it was not a customary thing, and they could not give it.

11,555. Have you ever offered to take a lower price for your knitting if you were paid in money?-Yes. In the case I have mentioned, I offered to take a less price if they would give me 1s. or 2s. in money; but they refused, and I took home my shawl, and did not sell it to them.

11,556. In that case did you ask for the whole price in money?- No; I only asked him if he would give me a little money upon it. The price I asked for the shawl was 18s., and I offered to give it to him for 17s. if he would give me some money.

11,557. Did he price the shawl at 20s.?-No; he priced it at 17s. I priced it at £1 and I got that for it when I took it home.

11,558. Have you ever been obliged to exchange any of the goods you got from the hosiery merchants?-I never exchanged anything for provisions, because when parties came to the country in July and August, I would often get two or three shawls sold to them for money.

11,559. Do you know that people who knit have sometimes been obliged to exchange soft goods for provisions?-I believe there are some who have been under the necessity of doing that.

11,560. Do you know any people who make a practice of buying goods from women in that way?-No, I don't know any one who makes a practice of it.

[Page 284]

11,561. Are there not some people who go about the country hawking goods, which they have bought from the women?-I believe there are; but I do not know their names, because I have never been in the habit of dealing with them.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, EUPHEMIA RUSSELL, examined.

11,562. You live with your mother at Blackness, Scalloway?- Yes.

11,563. Your mother is an old-woman and bedridden?-Yes; she is seventy-two.

11,564. Do you support yourself by knitting?-Yes, or by out-door work when knitting cannot be sold for money.

11,565. Would you give your whole time to knitting if you could get money for your work?-Yes.

11,566. How long are you obliged to go to out-door work in the year? Two or three months every year?-Yes; if it was all put together, it would be two or three months.

11,567. Do you just go to that when you want money?-Yes.

11,568. Is it in the fields or the fish that you work?-Sometimes in the fields and sometimes at the fish.

11,569. For how long have you been in the habit of knitting?-For about twenty-five years.

11,570. Have you often been paid in money for it?-Never, except on an occasion when a stranger was passing, or when Mr. Garriock would take my work. He has sold several shawls for me.

11,571. Did you hear what Clementina Greig said about the quantity of worsted required for a shawl?-Yes; I agree with her evidence about that.

11,572. Have you bought wool yourself?-Yes; I have bought wool from Widow Nicholson, who lives near here, and also from James Williamson, when he had a little to spare. I paid 1s. 6d. for his wool, and 1s. 4d. for hers; but that was not used entirely for shawls. I took the best of it for shawls, and the rest was used for other purposes.

11,573. Did you spin that wool yourself?-Yes. When my mother was in health she spun it; but I spin it for myself now.

11,574. Do you take as long to spin it as Clementina Greig said?- Yes, quite as long.

11,575. Do you sometimes get a little money for your hosiery?- Not from the merchants in Lerwick. I never ask for it there, because it is not the custom to give it.

11,576. Do you keep an account with any of these merchants?- No. I just sell my goods right off, and settle for them at once.

11,577. Have you ever sold them any hosiery made of Scotch worsted?-No. I never made with that Scotch worsted; I always made my own worsted.

11,578. Have you ever had occasion to exchange any of the goods which you got from the merchants for your hosiery?-I have exchanged tea for meal with the country people round about, but nothing else. I took more tea from the merchant than I intended to use myself, and I have given it in exchange for meal several times.

11,579. Do you generally take a quantity of tea from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. When Mr. Sinclair bought my goods, as he always did when I offered them to him, he never refused to give me anything in his shop that asked from him, except worsted. I once asked worsted from him, and I did not get it.

11,580. But you got everything except worsted or money?-Yes.

11,581. Have you lately taken more tea than you required, and exchanged it for meal?-I have not done it this year, because I sold a shawl to Mr. Garriock, which supplied me with money in the meantime, and paid my rent and some other little things besides.

11,582. When you want money, do you generally get it in that way?-When I want money, I usually give a shawl to Mr. Garriock, who will sell it for me when he has the chance. If he cannot get the shawl sold at the time when we need the money, we go to out-door work; but Mr. Garriock is kind enough to let the shawl lie until he can get it sold for us.

11,583. But one way in which you get money is by selling the tea which you have got in exchange for your hosiery?-I have never sold tea for money-only for meal.

11,584. But when you have no meal, and no money with which to buy it, that is the way you take to get it?-Yes

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, MARY COUTTS, examined.

11,585. You and your sister have lived for a long time in Scalloway with your father and aunt?-Yes.

11,586. Are they old people?-Yes.

11,587 Have you and your sister been their chief support by your knitting?-Yes, and by other work as well.

11,588. What kind of knitting have you done?-Shawls and veils.

11,589. Do you knit with your own wool, or have you got it out from the merchants?-The most of it belonged to the Lerwick merchants. I knitted it and took it to them.

11,590. How were you paid for your work?-In tea and goods.

11,591. Did you ever get money?-No.

11,592. Did you ever ask for it?-Yes.

11,593. Did you never get 6d. at a time?-I have got 3d., but that was the most. I once asked 1s. from Mr. Robert Linklater, to pay for mending my boots; but it was refused. That was about eight years ago.

11,594. And I suppose that did not encourage you to ask it again?-It did not. We ceased to knit for him.

11,595. Did you ask for money from anybody else?-Yes.

11,596. Did you get a little?-Nothing except a mere trifle, perhaps 11/2d. or 2d. from Mr. Sinclair.

11,597. Was that merely a balance that you had to get on your knitting?-No.

11,598. Have you an account there?-Yes. There is an account in his books.

11,599 All your knitting goes into that account and all your out-takes go into it too?-Yes.

11,600. You are just paid in goods, with 1d. or 2d. in cash now and then?-Yes.

11,601. How do you get your provisions, such as meal and potatoes?-We give tea to the farmers, and get meal and potatoes for it. We have sometimes to go to the west side, to Walls and Sandness, for that. Our aunt Elizabeth Coutts, has done that for us. She has not been to Walls and Sandness for the last two years, but she went regularly before. It was only for our own house, not for other people, that she took the tea there and got the meal and potatoes in exchange.

11,602. During the last two years how have you got your meal and provisions?-We have knitted for Mr. Moncrieff last year.

11,603. And therefore you did not need to barter your tea?-No.

11,604. Did you get the full price for your tea from the farmers?- I suppose we did sometimes, but I could not say. They did not weigh out the meat and potatoes which they gave in exchange; they merely gave a little for the tea which my aunt gave them. I have known her go as far as Papa Stour, twenty-four miles away, to make these exchanges. That was where most of her friends were.

11,605. Have you often had to barter your goods for less than they were worth?-Sometimes, if there had been 21/2 yards of cotton lying and a peck of meal came in, we would give it for the meal. The cotton would be worth 6d. it yard, or 15d.; and the meal would be [Page 285] worth 1s. I remember doing that about three years ago; but we frequently sold the goods for less than they had cost us in Lerwick.

11,606. Do you make fine shawls?-Yes.

11,607. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of 21/2 yards square?-10s. 6d.; and I have got as high 6s. from Mr Moncrieff, but the worsted was his own.

11,608. What was the cause of that difference between 10s. 6d. and 16s.?-The finer the worsted is, the more we get for knitting it.

11,609. How many cuts of Shetland worsted would it take to make such a shawl?-About 34 or 35. The shawl I got 16s. for took about 7 oz. of Scotch worsted.

11,610. How long would it take you to make it?-My sister and I are not in very good health, and we do not work very steadily, but it would be some weeks from the time we got the worsted until we returned it.

11,611. Do you know what these shawls would sell for?-No,

11,612. Have you never sold a shawl of that kind yourself?-I have sold shawls to Mr. Sinclair of our own spinning, and got 18s., 19s., and 20s. for them.

11,613. Were these shawls very much the same as that which you got 16s. for?-No, they were not so fine.

11,614. Would they be much the same as those you got 10s. 6d. for knitting?-Yes; they were quite as fine.

11,615. And you would sell them for 18s. or 20s. in goods?-Yes.

11,616. What would the wool of one of those shawls you sold to Mr. Sinclair cost you?-It would cost 1s. 6d. per lb., and 1/2 lb. would make one of them.

11,617. That would be 9d. for the wool. How long would the spinning take you in the way you work?-Perhaps more than a week. We have to go to the hill for our peats and turf, and that takes up part of our time.

11,618. Which do you think pays you best,-getting 10s. 6d. for knitting the shawl, or spinning your own wool and selling it?- Spinning our own wool pays best.

11,619. Do you sell your shawls yourself?-Sometimes; but our aunt generally goes with them.

11 620. Have you asked for money yourself and been refused it?-Yes; I was only refused it once.

11,621. What was the largest sum of money you ever got from the merchants?-3d. or 4d.

11,622. Did your aunt sometimes succeed better in getting money than you did?-Sometimes. When visitors were here she would; she always sold them to them.

11,623. But when she sold to a merchant, has she often got more money than you have mentioned just now?-No; when she sold to the merchants, and did not want to take goods for the whole, she took a line. It was from Mr. Sinclair that she got lines, and when we wanted goods we took back the line and got them. We once got lines from Mr. Tulloch also. We only got goods for them, not cash.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, ISABELLA HENDERSON, examined.

11,624. You live in Scalloway with your father and sister?-Yes.

11,625. Is your father an old man?-Yes. He is between sixty and seventy years old. He is not fit to work much, but he goes to sea occasionally in fine weather.

11,626. Do you and your sister chiefly support the family by your knitting and other work?-Yes.

11,627. Do you require cash sometimes for your rent and provisions?-Yes.

11,628. Have you a little bit of ground?-Yes. We have a small bit from the farmers during the season for potatoes.

11,629. Where do you generally sell your veils?-We just sell them to any of the merchants. We make them chiefly with our own wool, but sometimes we get worsted given out to us from Mr. Sinclair and Mr. Arthur Laurenson.

11,630. Have you accounts with these merchants?-Yes. We always had accounts when we got out worsted from them.

11,631. When you knit for them with their worsted, are you paid in goods?-Yes.

11,632. And also when you sell an article of your own?-Yes.

11,633. Have you ever got any money from them?-No.

11,634. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes. It is some time ago, but I asked once or twice, and was refused. After that I was accustomed to get nothing but tea or soft goods, or anything else they had in the shop, and I did not ask for money again.

11,635. Did they ever ask you to take a less price when you asked for money?-No.

11,636. Did they never offer to give you money if you would take less for your goods?-No

11,637. Have you ever had to exchange your goods for provisions?-Often. I have done that with several people. Sometimes, when I sold my veils, I would have to take a line from Mr. Sinclair; and if I knew any person who was requiring such goods as Mr. Sinclair kept, I would sell the line to them, and they would go to Lerwick with it and get what they wanted.

11,638. Who have you bartered your lines with in that way?-I am not inclined to tell their names, because it was done to me as a favour, and they did not wish it to be made known. I may say, however, that I have given the soft goods to Mrs. Tait in Charles Nicholson's shop.

11,639. Was Mrs. Tait always ready to take your goods?-She was not very ready, but when she saw it was necessary, she would do it out of kindness.

11,640. When you dispose of your goods in that way, do you generally get the full value for them?-Not always.

11,641. You have to take a little off them in order to get what you want?-Yes.

11,642. Do you do that several times in the year?-I do it very often.

11,643. Do you know that other knitters have to do the same thing?-Very likely they do. I believe there are others who have to do it besides me.

11,644. Have you often given away your lines in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, very often.

11,645. Do you make a practice of it?-Yes, I have had to do it.

11,646. Do you get a great number of lines in the course of the year?-Sometimes; not a great many. I just get them as I require them.

11,647. What do you get for the lines when you part with them in the way you have mentioned?-I have got money, and sometimes provisions.

11,648. Have you got money for a line lately?-Yes, in harvest. It was a line for 7s.

11,649. Did you get 7s. in money for it?-Yes; but when the people came to take the goods, if they did not get them to their own mind, I had to make up whatever loss they had upon them.

11,650. Was that the bargain, that if they did not get their satisfaction in goods, you were to give them back some of the money?-No, not the money. I was just to give them something in addition. Of course, they could not expect the money back from me.

11,651. Did you give them anything back?-They have not sought for it yet, and I cannot say whether they will ask for anything or not.

11,652. Have you always got the full amount of the line in money, when you gave it in that way?-No; not altogether.

11,653. Have you sometimes given it for less than the sum named in it?-Yes.

11,654. For 6d. or 1s. less?-That just depended on the amount of the line. I could not say particularly.

11,655. Did you get the full value for all the lines [Page 286] which you parted with last harvest?-Yes, I got the full value for them, but it was as a favour to me that I got it.

11,656. Can you mention any case in which you got less for a line than the sum that was named in it?-I could not remember any particular case where that happened with a line; but I have often suffered a good deal of loss by the soft goods. On one occasion I lost 1s. 6d. upon 6s. 6d.

11,657. Did you get 6s. 6d. worth of soft goods, and give them away for 5s.?-Yes.

11,658. Did you get 5s. in money?-No; not altogether in money, but partly in meal. They said the cost price of the articles would be 5s, and they gave me that value for them.

11,659. Have you ever given anything back, when the people that you gave the lines to were not able to satisfy themselves at the shop?-Yes, once. I gave them the worth of 1s. in other goods that I had got from the shop.

11,660. What was the value of that line?-I cannot say. The lines I have got have run between 3s. and 10s.; but I could not say the exact amount of that particular line.

11,661. Do you know any people who make a trade of buying goods from the knitters, and selling them through the country?-I could not say that any person makes a trade of it. I don't think any person would like to do that.

11,662. Are there not some women who hawk goods through the country, which they have got in that way?-I know there are and I have done that myself more than once.

11,663. What have you done more than once?-Taken the soft goods which I got at Lerwick, and gone through the country and sold them. The last time I did that was three years past in spring, and I had done it before.

11,664. Was it in a bad year when you did that?-Yes.

11,665. And you wanted potatoes?-Yes.

11,666. Had you to travel far in order to get them?-Between two and three miles.

11,667. Had you tried often before you got your goods sold?-Not often. Of course, I had spoken to the people before I took the goods to them. I did not go out on the chance of selling them.

11,668. Were the goods taken as a favour to you, and not in the ordinary way of business?-Yes, it was done quite as a favour.

11,669. But do you know any person who travels through the country regularly, and hawks goods which have been bought from the knitters?-I don't know any person particularly who has done that.

11,670. Have you ever heard that such things were done?-I cannot say that I have.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ANN LEASK or INKSTER, examined.

11,671. You live in Scalloway?-I do.

11,672. Have you sometimes knitted hosiery goods for sale?-Yes; I have knitted some for Mr. Sinclair.

11,673. Have you been paid for them in money or in goods?- When I knitted goods for sale I was paid for them in money. I knitted some for Dr. Hamilton, Bressay, and I was paid money for them. He had got an order for them from the south.

11,674. But when you sold them to merchants, you were paid in goods?-Yes; I never asked them for any money, because I did not require it. I always took what I required in cottons, cloth, and so on. Besides, I knew it was not the practice to give money.

11,675. Did you sell your own knitting?-No. I knitted for Mr. Sinclair, except what I got orders to knit from the south.

11,676. Have you an aunt who knits also?-Yes.

11,677. Does she sometimes sell shawls made with her own worsted?-She did formerly, but she does not do so now.

11,678. Do you think the merchants make any profit by the shawls they buy?-I cannot say; perhaps they do.

11,679. They say they sell them to the merchants in the south at exactly the same rate as they buy them here. Do you know of any case where a merchant has sold a shawl at a great profit?-No.

11,680. Do you know of a merchant buying a shawl from you for 15s. or 16s., and then selling it within a few minutes after that for double the money?-No. I do not remember any case of that kind.

11,681. Did you ever hear of such a case?-Not so far as I recollect.

11,682. Did you or your aunt ever sell a shawl at 15s., or about that price, which was sold immediately afterwards, in the same shop, to a gentleman for about twice the money?-I never saw that done. My aunt may have done so for anything I know, for I was not always with her. I was in service for some time, and I cannot answer for what she may have done at that time. My aunt's name is Ann Williamson; she lives in Scalloway.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH IRVINE or SMITH, examined.

11,683. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,684. Have you been in the habit of knitting?-Yes, a little. I have knitted for several people, but chiefly for Mr. Sinclair. I have knitted for him for eleven years, and I keep an account with him.

11,685. Do you get what goods you want out of his shop?-Yes. I asked for work from him when I was in great need, and I got supplies and worsted, and whatever I asked from him.

11,686. Has that system of dealing been going on for eleven years?-Yes.

11,687. Have you always got your supplies from his shop?-I always got what I asked.

11,688. Have you got money from him when you wanted it?-Yes. The first I got was 2s., and the last I got was 10s.

11,689. What was that for?-I just got it on the work I was doing.

11,690. When did you get the 10s.?-It was before you came to Shetland; I cannot tell how many weeks it was ago. I sent off a score of veils to my sister-in-law in Lerwick, and told her to ask a few shillings for me. She did so, and Mr. Sinclair gave her 10s.

11,691. Had she to ask more than once for the money?-No; she just took in the veils, and he gave her the money, so far as I am aware.

11,692. Did you tell her to say what you wanted the money for?-I did not.

11,693. Had you ever got as much money as that before?-No; but whatever money I asked I got, from 6d. upwards.

11,694. Have you ever asked for a sixpence or a shilling?-I have asked for it many a time and got it and I generally got a little more than I asked.

11,695. Was 2s. the next largest sum you got before the 10s.?- No, I had got 3s., and 4s. 6d., and so on.

11,696. Did you want that money to pay your rent with?-I have a pension of 11s. a quarter from the Merchant Seamen's Fund, and that pays my rent The pension is paid to me in Lerwick by Mr. Stewart.

11,697. Do you always get payment of that yourself when you go to Lerwick?-Yes, except sometimes when I cannot go, and then I send a paper to my brother in Lerwick, and he gets the money for me. My brother is in Mr. Harrison's store.

11,698. Did you ever have occasion to barter any of the goods you got for provisions?-I never did that except once when a woman took a quarter of a pound of tea from me and gave me milk for it, as I had not [Page 287] the money at the time. She was well satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's tea., and told me to get it from him. It was the same to her as money.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, JOHN THOMSON, examined.

11,699. You are a shopkeeper and grocer at Sandsound in the parish of Sandsting?-Yes, in a small way.

11,700. How far is that from here?-About 10 miles when we go by land, but it is a little shorter when we go by boat.

11,701. On whose property is your shop?-On the property of Mr. Greig of Reawick, and Mr. Umphray is trustee for it.

11,702. How far are you from Reawick?-About 3 miles.

11,703. Do you do anything in the fishing?-A little. I buy fish in winter and spring, but not in summer. I don't have the chance of buying any in summer. The place is a little inland, and there is not much fishing carried on there, except in bad weather in winter and spring when the men go to fish in the bays.

11,704. Do you cure the fish yourself?-Yes.

11,705. How much may you buy in the course of a winter and spring?-In some years I have bought as much as nearly 7 tons of dry fish, cod and ling, and in other years as low as 2 tons.

11,706. Do you settle with the men for these fish when they are delivered to you?-Yes.

11,707. Do they take the price in money or in goods?-I give them money unless they want goods, but if they want goods they get them.

11,708. Do you ask them if they want anything?-Sometimes, and at other times if they don't ask for goods I give them the price.

11,709. You deal both in groceries and soft goods?-Yes, but very little in soft goods, except at times.

11,710. Do some of the men run accounts with you?-Some of them do until about 1st April when they are going to Faroe or to the south; but with others settle just at the time when they get the goods or when they give me their fish. That is done either way as the men prefer it themselves.

11,711. Do you run accounts with the fishermen for supplies at other seasons of the year?-Sometimes, when they are a little hard up in the summer time, I give them a little supply either of meal or tea, or anything else, to oblige them; but I don't like to do that to a great extent. I cannot do it very well.

11,712. Do the fishermen generally go for their supplies in summer to the larger merchants?-Yes; those who go to the Faroe fishing generally do so.

11,713. Why is that?-Because when they are out at the fishing for the larger merchants, it is better for them to take their supplies at their shops.

11,714. But why could they not deal with you as well?-The larger merchants are more able to give them credit as they are fishing for them. In summer and harvest I generally sell, for cash when I can get it, and I am not very able to give long credits.

11,715. Do you do much business for cash in summer and harvest?-Not much; about £2 or £3 a week is generally the most.

11,716. And I suppose the men and their families generally have to go to the large merchants where they can get credit at that season?-At that season of the year they do.

11,717. Do you think you would have a better business if the men were paid for their fish as they were delivered?-I suppose I might.

11,718. They would not require to get credit then?-No; but the men who go to Faroe in the smacks have to make long voyages, and they could not be paid in that way.

11,719. But there are a number of men at the haaf in your district, are there not?-No, not in my district. There is scarcely a boat in my parish. The boats which go to that fishing are farther north-at Northmaven and Sandness.

11,720. Then the Faroe fishermen in your parish are only home twice in the summer?-Yes; they generally come home twice, once in June, and then about the beginning of harvest but some do not return until September.

11,721. Therefore they could not, in that case, be paid at the delivery of their fish, so as to have cash to deal with a merchant who is not employing them?-They could not.

11,722. Do you think you would have a better chance of business if they were settled with when they came home from Faroe, instead of having to wait for a good many months for a settlement?-I don't know. It takes so long a time to get the fish dried, that I don't think they could very well be settled with when they came home.

11,723. They might be settled with then if they were paid according to the weight of the fish when they were landed?- Yes; but I could not say whether I would do any better business in that case or not.

11,724. Do you think you would do a better business if you had some boats of your own?-Yes.

11,725. Why?-Because I would be getting more fish.

11,726. But would you do a better business in your provisions and goods?-Yes, I might be a small bit better.

11,727. Would that be because the men would come to you for supplies?-Yes; and then I would have more fish too.

11,728. Are the men at liberty to sell as many fish as they please to you in winter and spring?-Yes, at any time of the year.

11,729. Then you could engage a boat's crew in your district without any restriction?-Yes; there are no bound men there.

11,730. Are there many merchants in the parish of Sandsting who do about the same extent of business as you?-I think most of them do more business than me, because it is longer since they commenced, and they are better in the way of it.

11,731. Do you mean that they have got a larger connection?- Yes; and a better locality.

11,732. Are most of them engaged in buying fish?-No; there are scarcely any of them about me who are in the fishing trade, except Messrs. Garriock & Co. They have almost all the fishing business in that part of the country.

11,733. Have they the largest shop business too?-Yes.

11,734. Whom do you sell your fish to?-To Mr. Harrison generally. We sell them to him as soon as they are dried at the end of the year.

11,735. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if we want cash.

11,736. If you don't want cash, do you take goods for your shop?-Yes, if we want them; but if we want cash he gives it at any time either in advance or at settling time.

11,737. But he does supply goods in a wholesale way to merchants?-Yes; he sometimes supplies me with little meal and tea, and general groceries.

11,738. Do you not get all your supplies from him?-No, not the whole of them. I think I get as much from Glasgow as from him; generally from two houses there.

11,739. What do you get from Glasgow?-Tea and sugar and coffee, and general groceries.

11,740. Do you also get the same articles from Harrison & Sons?-Yes.

11,741. Do you pay the same price to both?-They are nearly all about the same price, except that the goods from Glasgow may be about a halfpenny per pound less.

11,742. Is that after allowing for freight?-No; it is taking them at cost price.

11,743. Do you write for these things to Glasgow direct?-Yes, when I get them from there.

11,744. When do you order them from there?-My [Page 288] dealings in that way are not always at the one time. Sometimes in the spring I order them fortnightly, and sometimes monthly, and sometimes at longer intervals. They are sent to Lerwick in the steamboat, and brought across to Scalloway by carts, and I come here with a boat for them. I think it is about six weeks since I got any tea from Glasgow, and it is a month since I got some other stuff.

11,745. Did you come from Sandsound to Scalloway for the tea?- No; I took it out the north road Weisdale and all overland.

11,746. Did you come to Scalloway on purpose for that?-No; the north carts took it out.

11,747. Do you think the tea which you got in that way cost you more when it was delivered than the tea you got from Harrison & Sons?-No. I think that, taking it on the whole, and after paying the freight it would come to just about the same.

11,748. Were the qualities the same?-Yes, as near as I could judge.

11,749. Do you sell both kinds of tea at the same price?-Yes, at 8d.

11,750. How much of your fish that you sell to Harrison & Sons will be paid for in goods?-About one half as near as I can judge.

11,751. Do you receive the other half in cash?-Yes.

11,752. Was that the case last year?-Yes.

11,753. When do you settle with Harrison & Sons?-I settled with them last year on 1st October for the fish which I had got in the previous winter and spring.

11,754. Do many of the shops in your parish deal with Harrison & Sons in the same way?-I think none of them do. None of the other merchants there sell fish to them, so far as I am aware.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, AGNES TAIT, examined.

11,755. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,756. Do you live alone?-Yes.

11,757. Do you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; I cannot work at anything else. I knit fine shawls and veils. I have knitted for the last six months to Mr. Moncrieff with his worsted, and I have been paid in goods. Before that I knitted with my own worsted, and I sold my work to any merchant in Lerwick, generally to Mr. Sinclair. I never asked any money from him, because we knew that it was the rule that we would not get it. I wanted it for many purposes; but I would not have got it even though I had asked it.

11,758. But you could not get on without some money, I suppose?- No. I sent some shawls and veils south for money with which to pay my rent.

11,759. Did you get enough money from them for all that you wanted?-I was often at a loss for money, and then I had to sell tea and other things which I had got in Lerwick for my hosiery. I sold tea and soft goods to any neighbour who was kind enough to take them.

11,760. Such as Mrs. Tait?-No, I never sold any to Mrs. Tait.

11,761. Did you sell your things often in that way?-Yes, very often.

11,762. Every month?-I don't think I did it every month.

11,763. Did you do it two or three times every year?-Yes; oftener than that.

11,764. How much goods did you sell in that way?-If I sold a shawl for about 18s. I would get 18s. worth of goods, and of that a good deal was tea-perhaps one pound or a pound and a half.

11,765. Would you sell all that tea?-Yes.

11,766. And something else besides?-I don't recollect of selling anything else except the tea.

11,767. Did you always bring home some tea from Lerwick in order to sell it?-Yes.

11,768. And did you always find some of your neighbours ready to buy it?-Yes; there were always some of them kind enough to buy it from me.

11,769. Did you sell it at the full price that it had cost you?-Yes.

11,770. You did not sell it under its value?-No.

11,771. You did that very often, because you had no other way of getting money?-Yes.

11,772. Do you ever get any lines from the merchants in Lerwick?-No.

11,773. Do you always settle for your hosiery articles at once?- Yes.

11,774. Would you rather have money than be paid for your work in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, I would rather have money; but we knew that we would not get it, and therefore we never asked it.

11,775. Do you think you could make a better use of the money than you do of the goods?-Yes, a great deal better.

11,776. You think you could turn it to better account?-Yes.

11,777. Do you think you take more out in soft goods than you require?-We often take out things which we are not requiring. We cannot get anything else and therefore we have just to take out the goods.

11,778. Can you mention anything which you have taken out when you were not requiring it?-No. I afterwards sold it; I did not keep it.

11,779. What are the goods you have sold?-Cottons.

11,780. Anything else?-No; but I have not sold any cotton for the last twelve months.

11,781. Did you ever sell cotton or any other goods under the price you paid for them?-No, I generally got the value. I did not sell these things about Scalloway; I went up occasionally to see some friends of mine in the west side of Sandsting, and I took the goods with me.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, WILLIAM HARCUS, examined.

11,782. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-Yes; I have a small business here. I have carried on business as a merchant here for between four and five years.

11,783. Have you many transactions with the fishermen here?-I have, in buying and selling groceries and general goods, but not in curing fish.

11,784. Do you run any accounts with fishermen?-No; unless perhaps for a few days, until they come back again to settle. It could not be said that I do credit trade. It is professedly a cash trade.

11,785. Have you any disadvantages in carrying on your trade from the system of barter which prevails in Shetland?-Perhaps if the whole trade were done in cash, there might be some advantages in some respects-that is to say, if there was money always coming to the fishermen at the end of the season, or when the settlement takes place.

11,786. If that were so, you think a merchant carrying on a cash business would be able to increase his receipts?-I think so.

11,787. Is it your opinion, from your own experience, that a ready-money business is limited by the want of money in the hands of the fishermen and tenants in the district?-I think it is. I think if there was money there would be more trade done in a ready-money way than there is.

11,788. Are you aware that very little money, compared with the amount of their earnings, passes into the hands of the fishermen?-I have no means of knowing that exactly; but I don't see much money, among the fishermen. What money we get is principally from sailors returning from the south, and, of course, a little from the fishermen after settling time.

11,789. Do you find that your business is larger after settling time than at other times?-Last year it was larger, because there was a good Faroe fishing. This year I don't think there has been any difference.

11,790. Do your books show that there is a larger [Page 289] cash business done after settling time?-No, my books don't show that. I don't enter cash transactions in them.

11,791. How do you know that the business was larger at that time?-Just by noticing the daily or weekly drawings.

11,792. Did you keep notes of your weekly drawings?-I did at one time, but I have been so busy lately, and so much away from home, that I have not got that attended to.

11,793. How long is it since you kept notes of your weekly drawings which would show whether your business increased or not in the spring?-I think it was only in the first year that I was in business that I did so; but I can recollect pretty well about the average amount of my weekly drawings. In a small business like mine we can depend a good deal upon the memory for that.

11,794. And so far as your recollection serves you, you think your weekly drawings were larger at that period?-Yes. When there has been a good fishing, and the men have something to get at the settlement our drawings are usually larger after that.

11,795. Do you think that shows that the men prefer, when they have money in their hands, to deal with you rather than to deal with the fish merchant who employs them?-I don't think it does; at least I could not say that it does, because the fish merchant who employs them might be having a larger cash return at that time too.

11,796. At all events you may fairly entertain the opinion that you would have a better chance among the fishermen if a cash system were general?-I think so.

11,797. If, for example, the fishermen were paid by weekly, or fortnightly, or monthly payments, for their fish delivered during the summer, do you think you would be more likely to obtain an additional share of their custom?-If that were possible, I might; but I don't think it would be possible to pay them at such short periods, because it would occupy so much time. The fishermen would have to come in and wait perhaps whole days before they could be settled with, and I don't think that would be a good plan for them at all.

11,798. If a note of the fish is taken at the time when they are delivered, would there be any difficulty in settling at the same time?-I never considered that; but I think there would be a difficulty in settling with the fishermen every day when they landed their fish.

11,799. In winter and spring they are settled with every time they deliver fish?-Yes; but the quantity delivered then is comparatively small. Sometimes in summer the fishermen are working ten or twelve miles away from where the curer is, and of course, to come in and be settled with every week, or even every month, would be a great hardship. They might lose very good days when they could be more profitably employed at the fishing. I think quarterly or half-yearly settlements would be as much as could be managed.

11,800. You have not had any experience yourself in settling with fishermen, either before you began business here or since?-No. I have a few men fishing lobsters, but they are not worth speaking about. I think there are only three crews' of them, and I settle always with them when they bring up their fish; but the trade is so small that there is no difficulty in settling with them then.

11,801. How long does that fishing last?-It is only carried on during the winter; and it was arranged that they should come fortnightly with the lobsters, and settle fortnightly, when the weather would permit them.

11,802. Do you do anything in the oyster fishery?-I did at one time, and I still do a little, but there are very few to be had.

11,803. How are they paid for?-In cash when I buy them.

11,804. Do you know what is the practice of other buyers-I would rather that they should state that themselves. I think Mr. Nicholson buys for cash, but I am not certain. He is present.

11,805. When you settle for your lobsters, where is the payment made?-In my shop.

11,806. In that case do the men generally spend part of the cash there and then?-They sometimes spend part of it.

11,807. Do they not spend part of it generally?-Yes; but I lay down the money on the counter, and they take it up. They have the choice either of spending it or taking it away.

11,808. Are accounts kept with any of these men?-With one of them who superintends the bringing home of the oysters, there is an account kept.

11,809. How often is that account settled?-Just whenever he wants a settlement. He always gets money with him to disburse for current expenses, and he is permitted to take from that whatever he wants for his own use; and if he requires more money, then there is a settlement.

11,810. Do you mean that you settle with him whenever he wants a new advance?-No. He always has some money of mine in his hands, and he has authority to use that both in paying the men who are fishing for me, and for his own use.

11,811. But when that money is exhausted he comes and gets a new supply?-He settles for that money, and what he has taken for his own use is put to his own account, and his own account is settled whenever he wishes to see how we stand. That is done frequently; and I have the book here which is kept with him. [Produces pass-book.] This [showing] is the cash he gets for the general account, £7, 13s. 4d., and then £10, and then £3, 17s. 2d. At that time he was in a different trade; he was collecting shell-fish. Then he buys produce, and the account is balanced at the end of October, when he has £5 still on hand to give me. Here [showing] the account balanced again, and he had £2 still on hand.

11,812. You keep that pass-book with that man; but not with the other fishermen whom he employs?-No. They just get their money.

11,813. Where are these men employed?-In St. Magnus Bay.

11,814. That is a long way from here?-Yes.

11,815. These are not the men that are paid in your shop?-The men who bring the oysters are paid in the shop, and sometimes one of these men may come along with the other man to help him to bring home the lobsters, and then they are all paid in the shop.

11,816. But not the others who do not come?-No. The man who has charge of the fishing for me takes the money with him to pay them when he goes back.

11,817. I understood you to say that when the men came with oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do but they are not asked to do it.

11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they should do so?-I think they do. I have heard them remark that they ought to spend the money where they get it.

11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling among the men?-Yes, it is a common feeling in the country.

11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in the shop where they get it?-Something like that I should not say, that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course, they are not asked to leave it.

11,821. But there seems to be a kind of understanding that they are to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem to have the opinion that they ought to do that.

11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but, of course, we are glad to get what money we can.

11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of it?-No.

11,824. Are you engaged in the hosiery trade at all?-I once bought a little, just to try the trade, but I gave it up. My experience of it was that it would not pay. Being the only one about here who gave [Page 290] meal for the hosiery, it was principally meal that was taken, and I found no profit on it.

11,825. Then that would lead you to form the opinion that it would not pay unless soft goods were taken in return for the hosiery?- Unless goods were taken on which a heavy profit was got, I did not see that it could pay me; but I tried the trade for so short a time that I could hardly say I gave a fair trial, or that I could speak so well about it as one who had tried it for years.

11,826. Do you not think it would be a more expedient system if hosiery goods were paid in cash, according to prices regulated by the demand, and that the merchants should make a fair profit upon the hosiery itself?-That is my opinion. I believe that everything ought to be paid for in cash, at a fair price to allow a profit.

11,827. Have you had many cases coming under your observation in which women have been unable to obtain the necessaries of life without bartering away the goods they have obtained for their hosiery?-I have known few cases of that kind.

11,828. Have you been induced to purchase goods from these women?-No.

11,829. Have you known parties who have done so?-No. They have been offered in my shop, but I have never bought any of them.

11,830. Have they been frequently offered?- Not very frequently; but I have no doubt, if I had begun to buy them, they would have been offered more frequently.

11,831. Do women generally expect to get the full price for the goods which they offer?-I just refused to buy them. I never came to the question of price at all, because if I had begun to buy goods in that way, my trade would have degenerated entirely into an agency for that sort of barter.

11,832. Are you aware whether there are parties in the country whose principal trade consists in purchasing goods from such women and selling them again?-I am not aware of any.

11,833. You don't know whether there are hawkers or pedlars who live in that way?-I don't know. I think it is only right for me to say that it takes a long time to settle with Shetland men owing to them not being able to read accounts, and that may account for the fact that they settle so seldom. I believe that if crew were to settle every three months, it might take them a whole day to carry through that settlement.

11,834. Is that from defective education in arithmetic?-Yes, from defective education.

11,835. Shetland men generally seem a very intelligent and well-educated class of men for their rank of life?-Some of them are.

11,836. Do you think they are further back in arithmetic than in other branches of education?-I think so.

11,837. How do you account for that?-I cannot account for it.

11,838. In what way have you ascertained that fact?-In settling with the few men that I have had dealings with.

11,839. Don't you think that if pass-books were kept regularly the settlement would become a shorter process than it is?-Yes; but many of them would not be able to read the pass-books, and of course they would be of little use to them. Still, a great many now can read them, because the boys are being better educated, and I think the country is getting ripe for a new system. I think it right you add that pass-books, as a matter of course, should be given to every one having accounts.

11,840. But suppose the parties having accounts don't choose to bring pass-books with them, and neglect to keep them up, are they not themselves to blame?-Yes; the merchants cannot help that.

11,841. Don't you think it would be as easy for the fishermen to have the price of their fish entered in the fish book at the time they are delivered, and the calculation of the whole value made at that time: the amount of each take of fish is entered in the fish book when it is landed?-I suppose so, but I have no experience of that.

11,842. Might the price not be entered as easily?-I should think so; but that will be a question for those who are engaged in the trade. I can see no reason why it should not be done; but I understand the custom of the country is to fix the price afterwards at the end of the season.

11,843. But the price might be fixed according to the current price at the end of the season?-I have had no experience on that matter, and I cannot say.*

11,844. If you don't drive a credit trade, I suppose you don't keep any books except a day-book?-I just keep a day-book and ledger, for the wholesale trade. There are no retail transactions that pass through my books at all. The ledger contains the names of those I deal with in the south.

11,845. Are the prices at which you sell provisions higher or lower than those at which they are sold in the neighbouring shops?-It would be impossible for me to say exactly; but I think they are about the same.

11,846. What is the retail price of meal just now in your shop?-It is 141/2d. per peck.

11,847. And of flour?-There are two kinds, one at 1s. and on at 13d. Meal is always 1/2d. peck dearer in Scalloway than in Lerwick, on account of the cartage.

11,848. Is there no meal brought here by sea?-Very little.

11,849. Have you many business transactions with the inhabitants of Burra?-Yes, some.

11,850. Do some of the men purchase at your shop the supplies they require for their families?-Yes, occasionally.

11,851. Do they do so for ready money, or upon credit?-Either for ready money or for eggs.

11,852. Do they sell all their eggs to you?-I don't know. I think they sell to all the grocers in the village.

11,853. In what way are their eggs paid for?-The eggs are generally paid for in barter at one price, and [Page 291] in cash at another price; but, for the last three months, I have bought them at the barter price for cash. The present price is 9d. per dozen, whether paid for in goods or cash, but they are very seldom sold for cash.

11,854. What is the kind of goods generally taken in exchange for eggs?-Everything we sell-tea, sugar, meal, bread, and soft goods.

11,855. Do you export a number of the eggs you buy?-Yes. They are sent south by the steamer.

11,856. Have there been any whales driven in here, while you have been resident in Scalloway?-There was one shoal of whales driven into the bay below this place since I came here. They were sold by auction. Mr. Garriock, of Reawick, managed the sale. The parties concerned in the capture got two-thirds of the proceeds of the oil as their share.

11,857. Are you aware that complaints are made with regard to the landlord's claim to have one-third of the oil?-Yes; there have been complaints made. I had a share in the whales that were driven ashore, and I wrote to the Board of Trade about it, but it seemed they could do nothing; at least they did not choose to do anything in the matter.

11,858. Were the whales of the bottle-nosed kind?-No. They are known by the name of caain, or driving whales.

11,859. Did the Board of Trade decline to interfere on the ground that the Crown had no interest in the kind of whale that was driven ashore?-Yes; they said the Crown had no interest in that kind of whales. We thought, as the Government claim the foreshores and beaches, the proprietors had no right to claim any share of the oil, because the blubber is never taken above high-water mark Most of the whales were killed at sea, and dragged ashore, and we thought the fishermen should have the same right to beach whales as to beach cod or ling, or anything else under the Act regulating the fishings.

11,860. Did you obtain any information at that time, as to the grounds upon which the landlords' claim for one-third of the whales was based?-I did not ascertain that they had any claim for it, other than the custom of the country, in the same way as they claim right to bind the fishermen to fish for them, and to no other. The Board of Trade did not say that the landlords had any right to claim the whales; they advised me to go to law and see; but I did not think it advisable to incur the expense of raising an action on my own account.

11,861. Have you found your trade hampered in any degree by the fishermen feeling under an obligation to deal for their supplies with the merchants by whom they are employed?-I have said already, that if the fishermen were paid oftener, more money would be circulated, and trade would be more divided; but it would all depend upon whether the fishermen were in debt or not, because we could not expect the fish-curers to pay those men who were in debt to them.

11,862. Have you found fishermen representing to you that they would purchase goods at your shop if they were not obliged to go where they could get credit?-I have occasionally heard such things here, but not very often.

11,863. Perhaps you have suspected that oftener than it has been expressed to you?-Yes.

11,864. A man does not always speak about his reasons for dealing with a particular merchant?-I don't think he does; but I don't think it fair if I pay ready money for such things as I buy, such as oysters and winkles, that others should not do the same to a greater extent than they do. I don't mean to say that they should cash for everything, but I think they should settle oftener.

11,865. You think the fishermen should be able to have a little money in their hands at times, instead of having it only once a year, in January?-I think so.

11,866. And even then, I suppose, they don't always have to get money?-I don't think they have.

11,867. Do you think that, upon the whole, your payments to fishermen are repaid to you?-Not at once. They may take the money home and come with it again, but it is not handed over to me at the time when the men get it. I have paid £40 in one week for shell-fish, without drawing more than £10.

11,868. Do your books show that?-No.

11,869. These were all cash transactions?-Yes.

11,870. But I suppose you may sometimes have paid £40 out in a week and drawn £30 of it back?-No. I never drew £30.

* Mr. Harcus afterwards sent a letter in which he said-

'Finding that exception has been taken by certain of my neighbours to a part of my evidence before the Truck Commission, I wish to say in explanation, that when the question was put whether I would approve in all cases of daily or weekly settlements, several difficulties occurred to my mind, and the want of proficiency in arithmetic among the fishermen was one of them, and not the only one, as is being attempted to be made to appear. I hope my words will bear out this idea. If my memory serves me right I gave as one difficulty the great distance between the fishing-ground and curer's headquarters; and I was having in consideration the extra expense that would be incurred if provision were made at out-stations for daily or weekly settlements, and the probability of an extra hand being required whose wages would have to come off the fisherman.

'With regard to my statements as to the proportion of Shetland fishermen who would be able to settle quickly by having pass-books, I was considering that it would be the duty of the men to divide their own shares, and to make all calculations ready for entering in their several pass-books, and that where there were boys forming part of a crew, and having fractional shares, very few indeed of the men could divide such shares. I think I also stated that I was speaking of those I had dealt with; but, of course, I could not be understood to speak of anything further than my experience went.

'I was also having in view that should a crew only require a few minutes to settle, yet if many crews came up at one time, as the tides and nature of the fishing would necessitate, some of them would have to wait several hours, which time could not possibly be spared, as during the busy part of the season the men can only allow themselves from four to five hours out of the twenty-four for sleep. Neither do I think that pass-books can expedite settlement much as some say. They can do little more than save the time required to head a printed form of account, say three or four minutes for each crew; but of course, are indispensable for other purposes.

'It will be seen from my evidence that the oftener curers settle with their men the better for my trade; and therefore, wishing to guard against having my mind influenced by selfish motive, I stated honestly what objections to daily or weekly settlements occurred to my mind at the moment.

'I trust it will be seen from my evidence as to my own practice that I approve of making settlements as often as practicable, in order to teach the people self-reliance and provident habits, and also to give them a chance to lay out their earnings to the best advantage.

' I have no wish to disparage this people. On the contrary, I think they deserve very great praise for being what they are under very unfavourable circumstances, and if this were the proper place I would have great pleasure in saying a good deal on this point; but though their general intelligence is perhaps superior to that of the same class in any other part of the country, I have not met with much proficiency in arithmetic among old and middle-aged men especially; and it is not difficult to see from the evidence the small amount of their experience in handling accounts, and the want of inducements to cultivate the art of book-keeping.'

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Rev. NICOL NICOLSON, examined.

11,871. You are a clergyman of the Independent Church in Scalloway?-I am. I have been twenty-two years here, first as missionary, and afterwards as pastor of a church.

11,872. Are your people mostly engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.

11,873. I suppose you are intimately acquainted with the condition of the fishing population of this district?-It appears to me by this time that I am not so well acquainted with it as I thought, because I have been hearing things coming out that I did not understand to be the case before the evidence was given.

11,874. Were you aware of the fact that very few fishermen received a large part of their earnings in money?-I understood that all of them who were out of debt got money from the merchants when they wanted it. I was once a fisherman myself, and that was the way in which I was dealt with. I did not think that in any of the shops here the men who had cash in the merchant's hands, and who were in necessity for it would not have got it.

11,875. Do you not think it would be better for the fishermen to be paid for their fish more frequently than once a year?-There are certain boats that deliver their fish weekly, and certainly it would be better for the men in them to be paid weekly; but there are a great many of the fishermen employed in smacks, from which they do not come ashore weekly, nor monthly.

11,876. Do you mean that the Faroe fishermen cannot be paid at short intervals?-I mean that those who fit out smacks and agree with men to fish on board of them for the season, cannot bring about a settlement with them until the end of the season.

11,877. But would it not be expedient for a man who is engaged in the home fishing, and who comes ashore every two or three days, to have his money paid to him at shorter intervals than those at which he now gets it, so that he might use it at his own discretion?-It has come under my observation that many crews who were ready to fish had no boat nor lines until they went to a merchant who would supply them with them, and then they made an agreement with that merchant to fish for him. They are in debt before they begin, and how can they be paid until the merchant sees his boat and lines clear?-Until they are cleared, he cannot afford to pay the men.

11,878. But in other trades, merchants frequently have to pay weekly wages to the men they employ, and take their risk of the market?-They take their risk of the market as it is; but if a merchant has due to him the whole value of the boat and lines, he cannot pay money down to the men and allow them to go away with it. He must keep it until he gets paid, or else he will be a poor man.

11,879. Would it not be within the power of the fishermen to purchase their own boats and lines?-They should do that, but I don't find them doing it. I know of only one man here who has done it.

11,880. Do you think it is impossible for the ordinary run of fishermen to make as much money as would pay for their boat and lines?-Most of the fishermen hereabout can never do it, owing to the way they live and the small fishings they make. They are not very fit to go out except in fine weather; and then they have to maintain themselves on shore in coarse weather.

11,881. How does the way in which they live prevent [Page 292] them from being able to purchase boats and lines?-They are poor men; they have no capital; and they are neither fed nor clothed in such a way as to enable them to carry on the fishing properly. If any man will give them credit for a boat and lines they just hang on with him, and never make money, or catch fish from which money can be made. I know a number of boats that seem to do very little all the year round. The crews are mostly old, worn-out men, and some of them are perhaps not very provident at home. I never saw them fed and clothed like regular fishermen; and you cannot expect them to go to sea properly.

11,882. What do you mean when you say that they are not fed and clothed like regular fishermen?-I mean like fishermen on the coast of Scotland, or in any other place.

11,883. Have you had some experience among fishermen on the coast of Scotland or elsewhere than here?-Not on the coast of Scotland, further than that I have gone among them, and spoken with them, and seen how they get on. I have seen them go off almost every day in winter, unless when there was a very extra breeze of wind.

11,884. Have they better boats in these places?-Yes; they have good boats, and they are well-clad, well-fed, healthy men; while there are men going on board the boats here who I believe, these other men would not take on board with them, owing to their want of strength.

11,885. You are not speaking of the ordinary run of Shetland fishermen just now?-I am speaking of the Scalloway men. I understand that in some of the islands, such as Burra, there are a class of very good men; but here there are no men staying ashore, except young boys and old men. All the rest go into the merchant service. A few go to Faroe, but only a few.

11,886. It is among these people who live in Scalloway that your experience chiefly lies?-Yes; it is to them I refer when I speak of the people about here.

11,887. So that when you are speaking about the advantages or disadvantages of a change, your remarks rather apply to the people of Scalloway than to the Shetland fishermen in general?-I say that most of the fishermen with whom I am acquainted in Scalloway, except one boat's crew, are such men as never do make earnings. They cannot get their boat and lines except on credit, and the merchants who give them out on credit require to keep what little fish they catch until these are paid, while the poor men are always asking for further advances on which to live. Therefore the men cannot have any money; and I don't blame the merchants, because the men still continue indebted to them.

11,888. Do you entertain that opinion with regard to other fishermen, strong young men, who are able to make better fishings than those you are now speaking of?-I believe there are such men in Burra, and perhaps even in Trondra, but I don't know any such men in Scalloway who are inclined to go to the fishing. Strong young men there go elsewhere.

11,889. Could these strong young men in Burra and Trondra purchase their own boats?-I think they could.

11,890. And that you consider would be an advantage to any fisherman?-Yes, it would be an advantage but I question whether many of the young men in Burra would confine themselves to boat fishing.

11,891. Do you think the system of being paid only once a year has the effect of producing improvident habits among the men?-I don't know. I was once a fisherman myself, and paid once a year, and I liked it well enough, for if I wanted money sooner I got it; but if I could do without it, I was pleased to get a larger sum at one time, and have it in reserve.

11,892. There is no doubt that, to many men, it may be an advantage to get a large sum paid at once; but, looking at the generality of the people that you live among, do you not think it would be better for them to have their money in their hand, paid to them every fortnight or every month? May they not, under the present system, run up larger accounts with the merchant who supplies them than they can afford to pay?-I am not aware that money is forthcoming at all from the fishing carried on in these boats. I have already said that I don't think the boats are fished so as to clear money, and consequently the men cannot have money. They are generally very poor and in debt.

11,893. Do you mean that almost all, the men in Scalloway are so?-All the fishermen that are in the boats, except one boat's crew that stands on a different footing from the others.

11,894. Do you ascribe that to the system which prevails here, or to any fault on the part of the men?-I can scarcely ascribe it to the fault of the men; I would say it was their misfortune. They are old and some of them infirm, and they cannot fish like stout, healthy men.

11,895. Have many cases come under your observation in which women who knit have been in distress for want of food in consequence of the way in which the hosiery is paid for?- I have not generally heard them blame the hosiery system for it exactly, but just the want of general employment.

11,896. I suppose most of the women here knit more or less?- Yes; I believe the greater part of them do.

11,897. And I suppose you are aware that knitting is almost invariably paid for in goods and not in money?-In listening to the examinations here to-day, I have heard conflicting accounts about that. One woman said they got no money, and another said she got as high as 6s. and 8s. at a time.

11,898. But even that woman admitted that the rule was to pay in goods, although she got money when she asked for it?-I believe it is the rule to pay in goods.

11,899. Have you had any experience as to the effect of that upon the female portion of the population?-I think most of them that I am acquainted with act very judiciously notwithstanding.

11,900. They are able to keep themselves notwithstanding that they do not get payment for their labour except in goods?-Of course they do keep themselves; but they are not so well off as they would require to be. If they could get part of the payment in cash, it would no doubt be a great advantage to them.

11,901. Do you think they would make a good use of the money if they had it?-There may be exceptions, but generally, I think, they are a provident people.

11,902. Do you think the women who are paid in goods for their hosiery sometimes get things which they do not need, simply because they are asked to take shop goods in payment instead of money?-I am not personally aware of that. I heard one woman say to-day that she sometimes had a good deal of things lying on hand; but I don't know of that being the case from my own experience.

11,903. The people have not complained to you with regard to it?-They have not. Some of them have said to me they would like to have money, while others have said they were quite well satisfied with goods.

11,904. Is there any other statement you can make with regard to the subject of this inquiry?-I am not aware that there is. I may say that I am in no way obliged either to the hosiery merchants or to the fishcurers. My living comes quite from another quarter; but I must say, when I am asked, that I believe we have honest men in both departments of business, both as buyers of hosiery and as curers of fish. I don't think any country will produce men of better principles, so far as my knowledge goes.

11,905. Does it follow from that that the system which they work is a good one?-No; I would not say that. I should like to see a better system brought in, if it could work; and I believe the merchants themselves would be glad to see a ready-money system introduced if it were possible; but the difficulty is to see how it can be got to act. We have hosiery merchants here, such as Mr. Harcus, who have tried it, and who have had to give it up, because they found it would not work.

[Page 293]

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.

11,906. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-I have been. I retired from business a year ago. My son, Gideon Nicholson, my daughter, Mrs. Tait, and another daughter's husband, David Dalgleish, succeeded me.

11,907. How long were you in business in Scalloway before you retired?-About 25 years.

11,908. Were you engaged in business both as a fishcurer and as a draper and general merchant?-Yes.

11,909. How many boats did you generally employ in the haaf fishing?-About ten or twelve boats for the ling fishing in the summer time. In some years the numbers differed.

11,910. Were these boats generally manned from Scalloway and the district round about?-No, there were very few of them from Scalloway. There were some from Maywick, parish of Bigton, about twelve miles south, and some from the island of Havera.

11,911. Had you a fishing station there?-The fish could not be cured there, as there was not a beach for that purpose, and they had all to be brought to Burra to be cured. For the last two or three years they have been brought to Scalloway, and cured on beaches here.

11,912. Were you tacksman of any properties in that district?- No, I never was tacksman; but the proprietor, Mr. Bruce of Simbister, held me accountable for the rents of the fishermen employed by me. He holds us accountable for them yet. It is in Messrs. Hay's hands just now, because Mr. Bruce does not act for himself.

11,913. In what way do you arrange about the rents of the fishermen whom you employ?-I have seen that when a fisherman was £10 or £20 in my debt I still considered that I had to pay his rent for him to the proprietor. I have paid the proprietor from £60 to £80 a year when the fishermen were perhaps due me £100 or £200.

11,914. Was that done under an obligation which had been undertaken by you to the proprietor?-No; I never undertook the thing, but I always did it for the poor men.

11,915. Was there a kind of understanding between you and the fishermen that you should advance the money for their rent?- There was not much understanding about it, but I always did it, and it is done at the present time.

11,916. Is that done for the accommodation of the proprietor, or for the accommodation of the men?-It accommodates both parties. Many of the men could not pay their rent themselves, and what were they to do if it was not paid for them?-Their corn and crop would have to be taken from them, and they would have had to come to me for more meal next summer. Therefore it was better for me to allow them to keep their crops and to pay their rents for them.

11,917. In what way is the payment made? Is it done by you handing the money to the men with which to go and pay their rent themselves, or do you put it down against them in their account, and send the proprietor a cheque for the sum?-Often before the time when it should be settled I pay it to Mr. Bruce or to Messrs. Hay.

11,918. Do you often pay the whole rent of the men in your employment, to Mr. Bruce, in one sum?-Yes, or rather to Mr. Bruce's factor. When the men had anything particular to say to their proprietor they would come along to me for the cash, and take it to him; but with regard to the body of the men, I never put them to that trouble. It was some trouble for them to go from Scalloway to Lerwick, and then to travel home age in.

11,919. Do you get separate receipts for all the men, and give them to them at settlement?-Yes.

11,920. Is the rent generally paid on their account before settlement?-Very often it is, or about that time. The term for the payment of their rent is at Martinmas, upon 11th November, and it is generally same time after that before we commence to settle with the fishermen. We must know what price we are to get in the market for the fish before we know what we are to give them, or how we are to settle with them.

11,921. What sum did you pay to the proprietor in that way during the last two or three years you were in business?-I should say that about £60, or from £60 to £70, would be about the usual thing.

11,922. Would the amount of each man's rent be about £4 or £5?-Yes, perhaps some higher, and some a little lower.

11,923. Then perhaps twelve or fifteen men would have their rents paid in that way?-Yes.

11,924. But that would only be a portion of the men you were employing?-Yes.

11,925. If you had ten or twelve boats, you would have fifty or sixty men employed in them?-No. Some of them are small boats that fish close to the shore, with perhaps three men in them, or two men and two boys.

11,926. Then you might employ perhaps thirty men and boys altogether?-Yes.

11,927. Would one half of these men not be tenants at all?-Most of them were tenants of Mr. Bruce.

11,928. Were they under any obligation to fish for you?-No.

11,929. Could they have engaged with any other person if they had liked?-Yes.

11,930. Have you objected to pay the rent for any one of these men when he was considerably in your debt?-No. If I paid for one, I paid for all. I have paid rent for a man who was between £20 and £30 in my debt.

11,931. Does the landlord give you any return for these advances which you make to him?-No.

11,932. Is it not a considerable advantage to him to have his rent made secure in that way?-There is no doubt about it.

11,933. But don't you get anything from him even in the shape of a favour?-No; I never asked it, and never got it.

11,934. Have you any fishing station on Mr. Bruce's property?- No. The fishermen on the island of Havera cure their fish in the island, and that is on his property, but I have no concern with anything else.

11,935. Do they cure their fish themselves, and sell them to you?-They cure them on the island, and send them to Scalloway, and I sell them for them.

11,936. Have they an arrangement peculiar to themselves about their fish?-No, there is no peculiar arrangement. Their fish have always been under their own command, and I could not sell them without their consent, and I have lost considerably by that.

11,937. In selling their fish do you act as their agent?-Yes.

11,938. Do you charge a commission for that?-I never had so much good sense as to ask a commission; I did it for nothing.

11,939. You sold them for them, and I suppose they took a quantity of goods from you when they wanted them?-Yes. They took lines and hooks, and bread and clothes, and such things as they required.

11,940. Did they get all their supplies from you?-I think they got the most part of them from me.

11,941. How many people live at Havera?-I think there are four families, but I am not sure.

11,942. Do the other people on Mr. Bruce's estate who fish for you, and whose rent you pay, deal entirely in your shop for their supplies?-I think the most part of them do.

11,943. Is that one reason why you pay their rents for them?-I suppose so.

11,944. Do you find that these men are generally in your debt at settlement?-Only some of them. There are some of the men who have always plenty of money to get, but there are others who have commonly been behind.

11,945. Are more than one half of them commonly behind?-No. There are more than one half of them who always have money to get.

11,946. Still there are some of them who are usually a good bit behind?-Yes; but I hope they will get and be able to pay it off. Some of them are men whose [Page 294] sons are willing now to pay for their fathers, and it is a great matter to see that.

11,947. The debts you refer to have been incurred for supplies of hooks and lines, and meal and other things required for the family?-Yes; chiefly for meal. Of course, they get hooks and lines also but they require a great deal of bread and meal.

11,948. Do those men who fish for you own their own boats, or do the boats belong to you?-The boats are all their own.

11,949. Are you not a boat-owner?-Not with these men.

11,950. Have you some boats here?-Yes; I had too many, and got very little profit from them.

11,951. The boats you had at Scalloway were hired out by you?- Yes; it got the name of hire, but I never received it. The nominal hire is 5s. per man. If it carries three men it is 15s. and if four men, £1. That is for three or four months in the year.

11,952. These are small boats?-Yes.

11,953. Is that the kind of boat that is commonly in use in Scalloway?-Yes.

11,954. Are there none of the six-oared boats in use here?-There are none in use here just now. Even in summer it is the small boats that are used here. They fish near the shore and the small boats are more handy than the big ones.

11,955. Then there is no haaf fishing from Scalloway?-No.

11,956. Are all the fish that you cure, the produce of that inshore fishing?-No; I have vessels that go to Faroe.

11,957. But you have no deep-sea fishing for ling?-No. I should not say that I never get the hire, because in some few cases I have got a little for it.

11,958. Then is it the case that you must look to the profit you make from the fish for the only remuneration you get for the use of these boats?-It would have been better for me if I had bought few or no fish in Scalloway, because the people here cannot get so much as will keep them alive. As has already been stated, the men in Scalloway are old men, who are not able to fish much.

11,959. How many tons of fish did you sell from that part of your fishing last year?-I am not able to answer that exactly just now, but there are commonly from 20 to 25 tons that come from Dunrossness.

11,960. And as much from Scalloway?-No; all that are got here is a mere trifle, and then we buy some in winter and spring from different quarters.

11,961. Do you also buy some in summer from other places too?- A few lots, not much.

11,962. Do the Burra men come and sell you a few lots in summer?-As little as possible.

11,963. Do you not like to buy from them?-I don't like to see men leaving their masters. My men might do the same.

11,964. I suppose your men do sell to other people's factors occasionally?-I don't think there are many men among them who don't do that.

11,965. Is it when they want a little ready money that they do that?-They can get it from me when they ask for it.

11,966. Perhaps, if a man is a little in your debt, he will not care to come and ask you for ready money?-There are men who are due me £5 and £10 and £15, and I just pay him for his fish over the counter when he brings them.

11,967. That is for the winter and spring fishing?-Yes. I would be happy if he could make as much from his fish as would keep him alive, but the worst of it is that these men cannot do that.

11,968. When you pay them money over the counter for their fish, do they generally pay some of it over the counter for supplies?- Yes; if they can buy articles as cheap from me as from another, they always do that. I have seldom seen them do anything else; but if they want a little money for any particular purpose, they can get it for that purpose.

11,969. They may need it for rent, and they will perhaps take it away to pay to their landlord?-That is not very often the case. If they have a house from another proprietor I very often have to pay the rent for them.

11,970. Do you lay out a good deal of money in that way?-Rather too much.

11,971. Do you sometimes pay other debts that are due by the men as well as their rent?-I suppose most of their debts are with me, except their rents.

11,972. Therefore most of their money matters are transacted through you?-I think so.

11,973. In fact, you are a sort of banker for the place?-I don't know that; it is very little that I get to bank.

11,974. When a man is well to do and has a balance to receive, does he sometimes leave it in your hands?-If they thought I was ill off for money they would do that. One year I lost about £200 on the price of ling, and rather than see me ill off for money one and another of them who had money came and offered it to me.

11,975. Do you mean that they left what was due to them on their fishing in your hands?-Yes; and they offered me besides money which they had laid up in former years, if it could do me any good and keep me going on.

11,976. Do you not think the men would be much wiser to take their own money and spend it as they wanted? Would they not understand the value of the money better in that way, and take better care of it?-They take their money at the end of every season.

11,977. But in the meantime they have spent perhaps three-fourths or four-fifths of all their earnings?-Of course they have been lifting their lines and hooks and everything of that sort, but they have never wanted money when they asked for it, even although they had nothing in my hands. Sometimes they asked for it to buy a cow or some particular thing, and they sometimes got as much from me as £4 or £5.

11,978. But you don't give it to them unless they want something particular, and mention to you what it is?-No.

11,979. Do you think it is a good system for men to leave all their affairs in your hands?-I don't know; I did not want them to do so unless they liked.

11,980. Would not the merchant require to be a very honest man when he is so much trusted?-He would indeed.

11,981. And a man who was disposed to deceive the fishermen who trusted him would have very ample opportunities to do so?- He would.

11,982. I suppose that has been done in a few exceptional cases in Shetland?-No doubt it has.

11,983. Do you think a fisherman who lives under that system is an independent person?-A man who has plenty of money to serve his purpose is as independent a man, or he should be, as any.

11,984. Do you think the fishermen have plenty of money to serve their purposes?-Not in general; but there are a few who have it.

11,985. Do you think they might all have it?-I don't think so.

11,986. Is that owing to bad seasons, or owing to a bad system, or what?-It is sometimes owing to all these things together.

11,987. I suppose all the men you employ, and some others besides, keep accounts in your books for the supplies which they require for their families and for the fishing?-Yes.

11,988. Each man has a ledger account?-Yes.

11,989. And although you are out of the business, you are still intimately acquainted with the way in which it is conducted?- Yes.

11,990. Do you think that one half of the men at this settlement have a balance to get in money?-I think most of the ling fishermen had, but the cod fishermen were much more in debt.

11,991. You had not many ling fishermen?-No, only a few boats.

11,992. It is the Dunrossness men you speak of as the ling fishermen?-Yes.

11,993. The Scalloway men are not ling fishermen?-No. I think there was only one boat that went from Scalloway.

[Page 295]

11,994. Is the business still carried on in your name?-No; it is carried on in the name of Nicholson & Co.

11,995. Have you any interest in it at all?-No.

11,996. It is practically the same business, however, which you carried on?-Yes.

11,997. When you carried on business, were you in the practice of buying hosiery?-Very little. I never took it at all, except when the poor people were starving and in want of bread. They sometimes came to me and said they wanted bread, and could not get it in Lerwick, and I gave it to them.

11,998. Have you taken the goods they have got for their hosiery in Lerwick and given them provisions instead?-Not very often, but I have done that out of compassion.

11,999. Have you sometimes given them money in that way?-I would not have seen them at a loss for a shilling if they wanted it for any particular purpose.

12,000. Have you sometimes taken their lines from them which they got from the Lerwick merchants?-No; I don't remember doing that.

12,001. Have you been asked to do that sometimes?-I don't think so.

12,002. Have you not been asked to give them provisions for lines?-No.

12,003 Was it mostly cotton and soft goods or tea that you took from them?-It was cotton and soft goods, not tea. They had a chance of getting a little meal and potatoes in country places for their tea, and they did not require to come to me with it.

12,004. What kind of price did you allow them for these things?- I allowed them the same price as I sold such articles at in my own shop; but they had paid a higher price for them in Lerwick. When they brought the goods to me, I saw they were not equal to mine at the same price.

12,005. So that you generally buy these cottons at a lower price than they have been charged at in Lerwick, but at the same price that you were in the habit of selling them for here?-Yes.

12,006. The knitters therefore would be losers nominally by the bargain?-Yes; but it was not much that they brought to me in that way-it was hardly worth mentioning.

12,007. What would be the difference in price on a yard of cotton?-Perhaps 1d.

12,008. Did you find that there was always that difference?-I don't exactly remember; but I remember sometimes looking at the articles, and seeing that they were inferior to mine at the same price. That was very easily seen.

12,009. Do the women sometimes object to give you the goods at a lower price than they had paid for them?-No. It was through necessity they came to me with them, and they always felt very grateful that they could get bread in exchange.

12,010. Has that system gone on at times until now?-Yes, at times.

12,011. You have some vessels employed in the Faroe fishing?- Yes, there are two.

12,012. Are these still in your hands, or have you handed them over to the company?-I have handed them over to the company, as agents.

12,013. But they are still your property?-Yes; at least they are partly mine. There are some other people who have shares in them.

12,014. Do the men who are employed in these Faroe vessels generally belong to Scalloway and the neighbourhood?-No; only a few of them. The others come from different parts of the country; some from as far west as Sandness, and others from as far north as Delting, and so on.

12,015. Have these men accounts opened in your shop for their outfits?-Yes.

12,016. And also for supplies to their families?-The young men don't require supplies.

12,017. But if there are any of them married men, they will have accounts, and their families get supplies from the company's shop during their absence?-Yes.

12,018. Then there is a settlement with them at the end of the season?-Yes. As soon as we can know what the fish are to bring in the market there is settlement made.

12,019. Have you a written agreement with these men?-Yes; it is written on stamped paper and each man signs it.

12,020. Have you made your agreements for 1872?-They are written and are being filled up now.

Scalloway, January 22, 1872, DAVID DALGLEISH, examined.

12,021. You are now a partner of the firm of Nicholson & Co., Scalloway?-I am.

12,022. You have been present and heard the evidence of Mr. Charles Nicholson?-Yes.

12,023. Have you anything to add to it, or anything additional to suggest?-No. He has had long experience in the business, and I have had very little. I have only been in it twelve months, since Mr. Nicholson retired.

12,024. You have been shown certain returns with regard both to the home and Faroe fishing, which you have been asked to fill up and return to me. You will do so at your earliest convenience, with the assistance of Mr. Nicholson if necessary?-Yes.

12,025. I see a number of fishermen present; if there are any of them who wish to make any statement to me I shall be glad to hear them. [No answer.] If no one wishes to give any further evidence, I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.

.

LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 1872

-Mr Guthrie.

GEORGE GEORGESON, examined.

12,026. You are a merchant at Bayhall, in the parish of Walls?-I am.

12,027. How long have you been in business there?-I have been in business in Walls for about twenty-seven years. My place of business is in the village in the centre of the parish.

12,028. Are your customers principally of the class of fishermen and tenants?-They are mostly fishermen and farmers. The greater part of my business is in ready money transactions.

12,029. Are there some farmers there who do not go to the fishing?-There are some small crofters, but they all go to the fishing. These parties are not confined to me in the business they do. They can go where they choose. I supply them, and they pay me once a year.

12,030. Are you engaged in the fish-curing business yourself to any extent?-I do not cure fish now. At one time, about twenty or twenty-five years ago, I cured fish, and had some small vessels, but I don't do anything in that way now at all.

12,031. You say your transactions are mostly for ready money?- Yes, mostly.

[Page 296]

12,032. But I suppose you have some accounts when you have a customer that you can trust?-Yes.

12,033. And with him, as you said, you settle every year?-Yes.

12,034. Are there many of these accounts in your business?- There may be some hundreds of them; I cannot say how many.

12,035. Does not every one of your customers open an account in that way?-Not every one; perhaps not above one-third of them.

12,036. You have an annual settlement with them?-When we get an annual settlement, we consider that to be very good. Sometimes it does not come up to that; but we would like it every three months if possible.

12,037. Are many of your transactions settled by means of barter?-Not many.

12,038. In what way is that system of barter carried on with you? Is it by the purchase of eggs and other produce?-Yes; eggs are looked upon as money. We make no difference upon the price of our goods whether they are paid for in eggs or money. With regard to hosiery, our trade is a mere nothing. I think would cover all that I buy in the year.

12,039. Do you pay for hosiery in cash at all?-No.

12,040. I suppose the system that prevails with you is very much the same as that which exists in Lerwick?-It is not the same as in that town at all. The difference is, that we do not manufacture goods to order. We merely buy them when they are offered to us, if they please us. I don't think there is any other difference.

12,041. Is the price you fix for the hosiery generally such as to allow you a profit upon the sale of it?-It is not; sometimes we really pay more for it than we get.

12,042. But do you sometimes look for a profit upon it?-If we look for a profit we don't get it out of the hosiery. If we have a profit, it must be upon the goods that are given in exchange for it, because we often sell hosiery below its value, according to its value here.

12,043. But I suppose you sell it below its real value only in consequence of some change in the market, or some miscalculation?-Perhaps that is the case; but, in point of fact, we don't buy hosiery as a trade. We are forced to buy it. We don't care for that trade at all, because we always lose by it.

12,044. In fixing the price to be given for the hosiery goods, don't you endeavour to make it at such a figure as will at least keep you safe, and possibly allow you a small profit on the hosiery itself?-I cannot say that we do. We are forced to take the hosiery as a matter of business. We don't deal in that at all, so to speak.

12,045. But don't you endeavour to fix the price at such a figure as would allow you a profit?-Of course we do, so far as we can; but in many cases we sell the hosiery goods below what we paid for them.

12,046. Do you sell them in Lerwick, or send them south?-We send them to Scotland. We don't sell them in Lerwick at all.

12,047. In what other departments of your business does a barter system prevail?-I may say that, except in eggs and hosiery, our trade is principally for cash and we deal in barter for eggs because we look upon them as being the same as money.

12,048. Do you give the full price for eggs?-Yes.

12,049. Do you pay for them principally in tea?-In anything the people want. It is all the same to us. If they want cash, and we pay a few shillings in cash, then we pay a halfpenny less per dozen for the eggs; but that is all the difference we make otherwise we treat them the same as cash.

12,050. Do you purchase a considerable quantity of eggs in that way?-I cannot state the amount exactly.

12,051. Do you send a box south by every steamer?-Yes, and sometimes more than that in the season. Perhaps we send a couple of boxes in the season when they are being brought in.

12,052. Do you send 10 or 20 dozen?-More than that. We can put, perhaps, from 70 to 100 dozen in a box, and we may have two such boxes a week in the season.

12,053. And these, as a rule, are all paid for in goods?-Yes.

12,054. At what time of the year do you generally get your accounts settled?-The fishermen settle their accounts generally about November or December.

12,055. Is that after having settled with the fishcurers?-Yes. I supply the men with what they want through the season until that time, and then they settle. Most of the men who deal with me cure their own fish, and sell them the best way they can.

12,056. Is it a common thing in your district for the fishermen to cure their own fish?-Yes; they have liberty to do that.

12,057. To whom are the sales of these fish made?-They sell them anywhere they choose. Sometimes they send them south, but principally they sell them to Garriock & Co. The men are rather confined in that way. They don't have exactly their free will to sell them, unless merely a little.

12,058. Do you mean that they have not their free will to sell their fish where they like?-They have that way; but where a proprietor is dealing in fish, the men are generally expected to sell to him.

12,059. Are Messrs. Garriock & Co. factors for some of the proprietors there?-Yes. They are factors for the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.

12,060. Do the men look upon themselves as being bound?-They are not really bound. They have a little liberty.

12,061. But they think they ought to sell their fish to Garriock & Co. rather than to another?-Yes, that is what is understood, but they are not really bound.

12,062. In what way have you observed that feeling among the men, that they ought to sell to Garriock & Co.? Do they sometimes speak of it to you?-If Garriock & Co. offered them the same price as other merchants, they consider they ought to give them the preference; that is the only way in which I have seen it.

12,063. Would they sell to Garriock & Co. if they were offered a less price?-I don't think they would.

12,064. They would be independent enough not to agree to that?- I think so. But there is a confusion there. I could not enter into explanations upon that point fully.

12,065. Why?-Because I don't think it is necessary.

12,066. But that is just the very point I want to know about. What have you to say with regard to it?-I know that sometimes, if I were offering the same price as Garriock & Co., I would not get the fish from the men.

12,067. Have you tried that recently?-I have.

12,068. Were you willing to resume the business of buying fish?- Certainly.

12,069. But the competition of Garriock & Co. was too much for you?-Not the competition, because I offered the same price, and perhaps even more, and could not get them.

12,070. Do you mean that Garriock & Co. had such an advantage over you, from their position as factors and proprietors in the district, that you could not venture to compete with them?-Yes, I ventured, and I could not get the fish.

12,071. Was that the reason why you gave up the fish-buying originally?-No, that was not the reason. I had some small vessels, and they were unsuccessful, and I just dropped out from the business.

12,072. But you think that the buying of the fish from the fishermen might be more remunerative lately than it was before?-I could not say about that; but the fishermen had the liberty to cure their own fish if they had liked, and then they sold them dry.

12,073. Was it dry fish that you proposed to purchase?-Yes. It was dry fish that I made the offer to buy, but we would not get them even if we had given the same price as Garriock & Co., or more.

12,074. How long is it since you offered to buy the dry fish?- Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago.

12,075. In what way did you make your intention known: did you offer to certain fishermen at that time [Page 297] to take their fish?-Yes. I have sometimes offered them to buy their fish, but I never could get them to sell them to me.

12,075. [sic] Do you remember any particular men to whom you made that offer?-I could not mention any particular man; but I have offered to several crews to buy their fish, and they would not sell them.

12,076. Do you remember what skippers you offered to?-If it is necessary to give names, I would rather do so in private. [Hands in the name of one skipper and crew.]

12,077. Do you remember any others?-I might mention several, but I don't think it is necessary.

12,078. What answers did they give to your offer?-I sometimes offered the currency, or above the currency, but that did not matter: I could not get their fish.

12,079. Did they decline to entertain your offer?-Yes.

12,080. What did they say was their reason?-They considered themselves as a sort of tied down to sell to one; but I know they were not tied down, and that they could have sold their fish to any one they chose.

12,081. But they did say to you that they were tied down?-They did.

12,082. Was it through a fear of disobliging the factor that they refused to sell their fish?-I suppose so. Perhaps they thought that if they required a favour again, they might not get it so easily if they made a change.

12,083. If the favour they expected was in the way of an advance, would they not have got that from you?-Yes, at any time, either in money or in goods.

12,084. What other favour could they expect from the factor?- From the fact of Messrs. Garriock & Co. being factors, they had more power than I had with regard to the men.

12,085. Did the men express any fear of being turned out of their holdings?-They did not.

12,086. But that may have been in their minds?-Perhaps it might.

12,087. Did you ever hear of any influence being used by Garriock & Co. to secure the fish of these men or of other men?-I cannot say that they used any undue influence; but, of course, it was an understood thing that they had the first chance, and the only chance of them. Where Messrs. Garriock cure the fish, of course they have the fish to themselves; but where they do not cure them, it is considered that they shall have the first chance of buying the fish.

12,088. Where they cure, of course, there is an engagement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No. That was the case about 30 years ago but it is not so now.

12,089. But in the ling fishing the crews are all engaged in the beginning of the season?-Yes; but there is no price fixed at the beginning of the season. About 30 years ago that was the case and there was some more competition.

12,090. Was it the case 30 years ago that the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes, there was a price fixed, and sometimes agreements were written on paper for the ling fishing, but that practice fell away. Sometimes the fishermen got above the real value of the fish under that system.

12,091. Do you know whether that system existed only in your part of the island?-No, it existed all over Shetland more or less unless where the factors had control over the fishermen. At that time every man who had his freedom could sell his fish to the best bidder.

12,092. But he can do so still, only the price is now fixed according to the current rate at the end of the season?-He cannot do so exactly in every place in Shetland. The price is not understood to be known until the fish are sold, which, I think, makes the fishermen scarcely so persevering in fishing as they were when they did know the price. I think when the price was fixed at the beginning of the season, they persevered even more than they do now.

12,093. Was that system given up before you ceased to be in the business?-No, it continued after that. The thing which made the price to be fixed at the beginning was, that other buyers than the native buyers came into the market, and there was more competition.

12,094. Was there much more competition at that time than there is now?-In buying fish green there was more competition, but now the competition is very little.

12,095. How do you account for that?-Where factors have the power, it is understood that the men must fish either to the factor or the proprietor.

12,096. Do you think the factors have more power now than they had in those times?-I rather think they have in some cases.

12,097. In those times was it not the rule that the fishermen were always bound to deliver the fish to the proprietor, or to some one appointed by him?-It was.

12,098. So that, in that case, there could not be competition?- There were several people who had the chance of buying the fish at that time; but, of course, they could not get their summer fish. They might get fish during the spring season in small quantities, but that was all.

12,099. I thought you were speaking with reference to the summer fishing, when you said that in those times there was a great deal of competition, and that the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes; that was the case about thirty years ago but within the last twenty years it has fallen away.

12,100. But even at the time you speak of, were not the fishermen very frequently bound to deliver their fish to the proprietors or their factors, or tacksmen?-They were bound in some places, but not so much in our part of the country as elsewhere.

12,101. The men were not so much bound in the district that you speak of when the price was fixed at the beginning of the season?-The price was fixed in many cases, but not in all.

12,102. Then the fish in those times were bought from the fishermen green?-Yes.

12,103. And it was the price for green fish that was so fixed?- Yes. The proprietor never fixed the price. It would only be fixed by a buyer or it merchant.

12,104. Do you think it would be advantageous to return to that practice of fixing the price at the beginning of the season for green fish?-Where fish are bought green, I think it would.

12,105. Would it not be better for all parties if the fish were always bought green, and cured by a professional curer?-I don't think it would. There are some of the fishermen who can cure the fish as well as any professional curer.

12,106. Are the fishermen in your neighbourhood generally supplied with vats and other implements for curing fish?-Most of them who cure for themselves have implements of their own. They only require their supplies, such as lines, and salt, and food from the merchant.

12,107. I suppose these independent fishermen who cure their own fish, frequently take their lines and salt and materials for curing from you?-They get them anywhere they choose. They have much more liberty in that way in our parish than, I think, they have in any part of Shetland.

12,108. Would you say that curing by the men themselves is practised to it greater extent in your parish than anywhere else in Shetland?-Much more. Since the men began to cure their own fish they have got on well, and they have got much out of debt, and become more independent.

12,109. When did they begin to cure their fish?-It is about fifteen or sixteen years since it came to be practised to any extent; but there are it good many of them who do not cure their own fish yet. I should say there are about one half of them who sell their fish green.

12,110. Do those who sell their fish green engage at the beginning of the season with Garriock & Co.?-They sell their fish to them. They do not have any price stated at the beginning, but are settled with according to the current price at the end of the season.

12,111. Do you find that the men who are so engaged to sell their fish according to the current price at the end of the season, are less frequent customers at your [Page 298] shop than those who cure their own fish?-Yes; that must be a consequence.

12,112. Why?-Because it is understood that their supplies must come from the place where their goods are going. They are a sort of bound; they are not independent; but if they were curing for themselves, then they would have their freedom to go anywhere they chose.

12,113. Do you mean that the men who are paid according to the current price at the end of the season want to get their supplies on credit?-Of course they must get their supplies on credit at the place where they are giving the proceeds of their work.

12,114. Is there any other reason why they deal with the fish-curer for their supplies? Does a man who has money in his hand go to the fish-curer by preference for his supplies, as well as a man who has not?-Some men would go there even although they had the money, and get an advance on credit.

12,115. Do the men think it an advantage to get their supplies on credit?-Some men do, even although they paid a higher price for them.

12,116. And they might at the same time have money in the bank?-Yes.

12,117. Do you think that is a common notion among the men?- No, I don't think it is a common notion.

12,118. Are the men who act in that way men to whom you would yourself give credit?-Yes. I have sometimes given them credit for their supplies, such as salt and lines, and anything they wanted.

12,119. Would you consider yourself safe in giving them credit, even if they were engaged to deliver their green fish to Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-No. I would not like to deal with the men who sell their green fish, because I would run the risk of not getting my money from them.

12,120. But you say the men will take advances from the curer during the summer, even although they are quite able to pay for what they are getting?-Some men will do so from their natural disposition; but, as a rule, if the skipper goes to a certain place for his supplies, it is considered that his men must go there too.

12,121. How is that?-The skipper, of course, has some control over his crew on shore as well as at sea.

12,122. Do you think the skipper sometimes advises or persuades his men to go to a particular shop?-He might; I cannot say that he would not, but that is not known to me.

12,123. Do you suppose there is any understanding that it is part of the skipper's duty to guide his men to the right shop?-I don't think the skipper is tempted in any way to do that. I don't know that he derives any benefit from it. There may be a premium given to a skipper for being the best fisher; but I don't think the skippers are tampered with to control their crews as to the shops where they are to deal.

12,124. Who has the appointment of the skipper?-The crew may choose a man for themselves.

12,125. Have you noticed, as a rule, that the skippers deal at the fish merchant's shop more commonly than the men?-No. I think there is no difference in that way, so far as I have seen.

12,126. Then the only reason you can suggest for men who sell their green fish dealing at the shop of the curer, is because there is a sort of understanding among them that they shall take their supplies there?-Yes. In fact, they would not get them anywhere else because they could not get the money to pay for them. The man who buys the fish has the first chance of the men's money; while we who don't buy the fish have only a second or a third chance of being paid. We would not care to supply men in that way, because we don't consider ourselves safe.

12,127. But in giving supplies to the men who cure their own fish, you think you have some security?-Certainly.

12,128. What is that security?-The men are more independent, and if they sell their fish south, they are sure to get their money at the time.

12,129. But you told me that these men are under some kind of obligation to sell their fish to Garriock & Co.?-There is some understanding of that kind, but they are not bound.

12,130. They always give them the preference?-Yes.

12,131. And you have been unable to buy their fish from them?- Yes. Even if I were to offer a somewhat higher price, I know that I would not get them.

12,132. If that is the state of matters with them, then you have not much more security for your advances in their case than in the case of the other men?-I have security. There is no fear for them.

12,133. May they not be taking supplies all the season from the merchant's shop?-We have a good chance of knowing where they get their supplies; and men like that, who are independent, are not likely to run away with the money when they get paid for their fish. They are safe enough to pay their accounts.

12,134. Then your reliance is very much on the character of the men themselves?-Certainly.

12,135. Do you find that the men who cure their own fish are of a more reliable character, and more to be depended upon, than the others?-Generally they are, and they are more persevering.

12,136. I suppose Messrs. Garriock & Co. know pretty well what men deal at your shop, and what men deal at their own?-I think they do.

12,137. Have you ever obtained from them, or through them, payment of any accounts that have been run up by men at your shop?-No. I would not like to apply to them for that. I think they would rather pay the money to the men themselves.

12,138. Do the men who deal with you upon accounts generally keep pass-books?-Some of them do.

12,139. Do you find any irregularity or difficulty in settling their accounts, in consequence of the want of pass-books?-I find none; but, of course, if a man understands accounts, and keeps a pass-book, I find it more agreeable to settle with him. The more ignorant a man is, the more trouble you have in settling with him.

12,140. Are there any other buyers of dried fish in that district than Garriock & Co.?-There is no other person who buys them in large quantities.

12,141. There may be small buyers, but I suppose they don't have much chance in the circumstances you have already described?- No; they don't have a chance.

12,142. How do these small buyers get any fish all?-There are very few who buy dried fish, and who have the chance of getting much. They might get few tons in some years, but not as a regular thing.

12,143. Is there any public-house in the parish of Walls?-No.

12,144. Or any one who has a grocer's licence?-No, there has not been one for some years.

12,145. You don't hold a grocer's licence for the sale of spirits?- No.

12,146. Where do people in that parish get their supplies of liquor?-There are two licensed houses in the next parish of Sandsting-one at Tresta, and one the Bridge of Walls, on the Sandsting side.

12,147. Have the people to go there for all their supplies of that kind?-Yes.

12,148. I believe they are a very temperate people?-I think they are.

12,149. Have you ever been asked to purchase second-hand goods in small quantities by your neighbours, by people coming from a distance?-No.

12,150. Have you not been asked to buy small packet of tea across the counter?-Never.

12,151. Do you know whether the people in your district sometimes get their supplies of tea from those who have got the tea in exchange for hosiery in Lerwick?-No; there is no practice of that kind among us.

12,152. If it happens, it will be an exceptional thing so far as you know?-I never knew any case of the kind.

12,153. When you were engaged in the fish business yourself, were you ever asked to advance the rent of any fisherman from whom you had bought fish?-I might sometimes advance money to a fisherman to help [Page 299] him to pay his rent, but I cannot say that I was ever pressed either by a factor or a landlord on that point.

12,154. When you gave that advance, it was given directly to the fisherman?-Yes, and voluntarily.

12,155. Do you ever make money advances now for that purpose, or for any other purpose, to your customers who have accounts with you?-I have not done so within the last two or three years; in fact, most of the men don't need it; they can get on without it.

12,156. The accounts incurred to you, and which are settled for at the end of the year, are paid in cash, I suppose, for the most part?-Yes, in cash.

12,157. The only things you get in part payment, and which are entered on the other side of the account, are eggs and sometimes butter?-There is not much butter. The greater part of my trade is done in cash.

12,158. But eggs and hosiery may sometimes be entered in the account?-Not much hosiery. I don't do much in that way.

12,159. You said it might amount to £50, but the transactions, I suppose, are settled at the time?-Yes. In some years I do not do the half of that, but would cover my transactions in that way in any year. I remember some years ago buying three or four times as much, but now the knitters all go to Lerwick with their work.

12,160. What hosiery you do buy is all settled for at the time?- Yes, it is paid right off there and then. The articles are offered to us, and if we are satisfied with the quality and the price we take them, the same as in any other money transaction.

12,161. Do the accounts which you settle at November or December generally amount to some pounds apiece?-Yes; with those fishermen to whom we have advanced.

12,162. Are these accounts generally paid in cash which the men have got from Messrs. Garriock & Co. for the sale of their fish to them?-Yes.

12,163. I suppose you take good care to bring as many of your accounts as possible to settlement immediately after the settling time with Garriock & Co.?-Yes; that is our usual practice.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN TWATT, examined.

12,164. You are a merchant at Voe, in the parish of Walls?-I am.

12,165. How far is that from Bayhall?-About five minutes' walk.

12,166. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Georgeson?-I have.

12,167. Is your business much of the same description as his?- It is exactly the same. There is no difference between them whatever.

12,168. It is conducted with the same class of customers?- Exactly.

12,169. Are your settlements made at the same season?-Yes.

12,170. Have you ever been in the fish-curing business yourself?- Yes. For the last two years I have done little in the winter season. I get no fish in summer.

12,171. Do you buy the fish green?-Yes; in winter.

12,172. Are you ready to buy them cured if you could get them?- Yes. I have often offered for fish, but I never could get them. I have made the offer publicly to all the boats.

12,173. In what way did you intimate that offer publicly?-I just said to the men that I would buy their fish, and give as high a price for them as another. I have said that if I did not give them 10s. more, I would not give them 10s. less; but I could not get them.

12,174. What did they say?-They said nothing, but they never gave me the fish.

12,175. Did you mean by the offer you made to them that you would give them a price fixed at the beginning of the season?- No; I could not fix a price then. I meant that I would give them as much as any other fish-buyer who was in the trade.

12,176. Did you mean that you would give them that price at the end of the season when they delivered their cured fish?-yes.

12,177. Did you make a special offer to any particular crews?-I have said to some of the men to tell their skippers what I had offered. The skipper was not in at the time, but I told one of the men that I would give him 10s. more than any other one if he would give me his fish.

12,178. Have you reason to believe that the man carried your message to the skipper?-Yes; I know he did carry it.

12,179. Did you get any answer to it?-No.

12,180. Then how did you know that the man had carried your message to the skipper?-Because I asked the skipper afterwards about it; and he said he had been engaged at the beginning of the season to deliver his fish to another party.

12,181. Were these fish to be cured by himself?-Yes.

12,182. Are contracts made so early as that with men who cure their own fish?-In some cases they are.

12,183. Was the other party in this case Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-I don't think it was. I would rather mention the name privately. [Hands in the name of a fish-curing firm.]

12,184. Are these gentlemen you have named extensive purchasers of cured fish in your district?-I believe they would buy all they could get.

12,185. Perhaps they have the same difficulty which you experience in buying fish?-I suppose they have.

12,186. Do you carry on any business with men who are engaged to fish in the ling fishing for Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-Yes. I supply the crews with what they require for the fishing, such as lines, and hooks, and tar.

12,187. Are they not expected to take their supplies from the shop of the merchant with whom they engage?-Sometimes it is much handier for them to get them from me than to go to Reawick for them; and when I know the crew will pay me, I supply them to them.

12,188. Your shop is at a great distance from Reawick, or any of the larger fishing stations?-Yes.

12,189. Do you make these supplies to the men to a large extent?-No, not to a large extent; only to a few boats. It is only to the crews that I make these supplies, because the company accounts are paid first at the time of settlement, and I look to the skipper to see that I am paid.

12,190. Then a company account of that kind is a safer thing than an account with one of the men?-Yes.

12,191. Do the fishermen themselves, as individuals, get supplies from you on credit while they are engaged in the ling fishing?- Yes.

12,192. Do they not go more frequently to Reawick, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co.'s other stores, for supplies?-Yes. There are certain parties that I won't give them to.

12,193. Do you furnish the principal part of the supplies to those men in your neighbourhood who fish for Garriock & Co.?-No. Garriock & Co. do that themselves. It is only when they cannot get over to Garriock a Co.'s stores, or when Garriock & Co. might be out of any article they want, or something like that, that they come to me. They only come to me for what they want when they cannot do better.

12,194. Is it the case that some of them come to you for supplies because Reawick is so far away?-Sometimes that is the case in the busy season. When the fishing is going on they are glad to go to the nearest place, and get a few lines or hooks, or what they want but when they do go to Reawick they take as much from there as possible.

12,195. Are they expected to do so?-I rather think they are.

12,196. Do you understand that from the men themselves, or is it merely your own inference from the way in which they act?-It is my own opinion.

[Page 300]

12,197. Have you heard anything from the men which has confirmed that opinion?-No, I could not say that I have.

12,198. Do you find that the connection of the fishermen with a large company of that kind, which buys their fish, and which acts as factor upon the estates where the fishermen live, interferes with the extension of your own business?-I cannot say that it does.

12,199. Have you not told me already that you have not been able to buy fish from the men, although you wanted to do so?-Yes; it interferes with me in that way, so that I cannot get the fish.

12,200. But you don't suppose the men would deal at your shop, in preference to the shop of the merchant who employs them, even although they could do so?-If they were fishing to me, I believe they would deal with me the same as with any other one. I cannot quite agree with what Mr. Georgeson said about that. I think there is a little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to the shop. I think it is an understood thing between the skipper and the fishbuyer, that he (the skipper) is to get something extra.

12,201. Does not the skipper usually get a fee?-No; he is generally supposed to get the same as the men, but I rather think he gets a little more.

12,202. You say that that serves as a bribe: for what purpose?-I leave that to you.

12,203. Do you suppose it has the effect of making him influence the men to take their supplies from the merchant's shop?-I leave that to you to judge.

12,204. Do you suppose that the skipper, in general, does guide his men in that direction?-I rather think he does in some cases.

12,205. Have you known any special instance that you could point to, where that was done?-There was one boat's crew with whom I was settling for a small company account. I asked them why they did not give me their fish as we were next-door neighbours, or something like that; and the men all got up against the skipper, and said they were quite willing to give me their fish, only that the skipper had gone away and made an agreement for them before.

12,206. That was for the sale of their fish?-Yes, for the sale of the dry fish. I would have bought them at the same price as Garriock & Co, or any other one.

12,207. But that was not a case in which the men were induced to go for supplies to the fish-curer?-They did not require to go there for their supplies unless they had liked, because they could have got their supplies from me if they had said they would give me their fish at the end of the season. If they had done that I was willing to supply them with money, or meal, or anything they wanted.

12,208. These were men who were curing their own fish?-Yes.

12,209. But have you known any cases in which men who were engaged to fish during the whole season, and to deliver their fish green to Garriock & Co., were induced by the skipper to go to Reawick for their supplies?-I cannot say that I have.

12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to Reawick for supplies although it is much farther away?-Yes.

12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient. They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price as they can at Reawick.

12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is about 10 or 12 miles.

12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are brought by boats and sometimes round by the rocks.

12,214. When a crew cure their own fish, is it the rule that the sale must be of the whole catch of the boat, or can each man sell his fish separately?-No, they must all be sold together; and they generally go to the place where the skipper or the majority of the men want them to go.

12,215. Do you think the skipper has a considerable influence in that matter?-I think he has.

12,216. Of course, where the men are fishing independently, and curing their own fish, there is no arrangement with the merchant for the skipper's fee?-No; that is an understood thing between the skipper and the fish-buyer, and I don't think the men know anything at all about it. There is no fee at the ling fishing, and the men can go to whom they please. They are different there from what they are in the Faroe fishing.

12,217. Do you buy any hosiery?-I buy it little, and I pay for it in the same way which Mr. Georgeson explained. It is all done by barter.

12,218. Do you also pay for eggs and butter by goods?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.

12,219. You are a merchant at Bridge of Walls, in Sandsting?-I am.

12,220. You are a son of Mr. George Johnston, merchant at Tresta?-Yes.

12,221. Is that in the same parish, but at some distance from your place?-Yes; I think it is about eight miles away.

12,222. Your father is in delicate health, and has not been able to come to-day?-Yes. He has not been able to come in consequence of the rough day.

12,223. Were you concerned in his business before you set up business on your own account?-Yes.

12,224. You are acquainted with his business at Tresta as well as with your own?-Yes.

12,225. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Georgeson to-day?-Yes.

12,226. Is your business and that of your father similar in character to Mr. Georgeson's?-Yes, it is just the same only we have a spirit licence in addition. My father has a public-house licence, and I have a grocer's licence.

12,227. Then you supply what spirits may be wanted in the parishes of Walls and Sandsting?-Yes. I suppose we supply the principal part of them; but the people may go to Lerwick or any other place for them if they choose.

12,228. Your dealings in that way, I suppose, are always settled for in cash?-Yes, always in cash.

12,229. Is the bulk of your other transactions paid for in cash too?-No; there is a good deal of credit given.

12,230. To what class of customers do you give credit?-To the fishermen.

12,231. Have you any fishermen who are employed in your own boats?-We have no boats fishing to us.

12,232. Do you buy cured fish or green fish from the fishermen?- No, we don't buy any. My father has one vessel of his own that goes to the Faroe fishing. He had three about five or six years ago.

12,233. Where do you get the men for these Faroe vessels?-They are very much scattered. Sometimes, we get part from Walls, and sometimes part from Sandsting.

12,234. Do these men take supplies for themselves and their families during the summer from your father's shops?-Yes.

12,235. And they have an account which is settled at the end of the fishing season?-Yes.

12,236. Do you buy no fish at all?-No. My father has an interest in two boats that fish on the home banks off Shetland. That is the cod fishing; they don't go to the Faroe fishing. They are smacks, but they are small.

12,237. That bank is between Shetland and Orkney?-Yes.

12,238. Exclusive of the men who are engaged in the Faroe fishing, have you or your father many accounts with fishermen living in the district?-Not very [Page 301] many. We have some, but they are principally with men who go south, and we supply their families during the time they are away. They go principally to Liverpool, and sometimes to Greenock, and enter the merchant service. They remain away for a year or two, and then come home for a winter.

12,239. Do these men send allotment notes home to their wives?- Not often. They generally remit money home at the end of the voyage.

12,240. Then you have no security at all for your advances, except the personal credit of the men?-None at all.

12,241. There may be some stock on their farms occasionally?- Of course they have a little.

12,242. Have you any accounts with fishermen on the ling fishing at home?-Not many. There is no ling fishing carried on close to where I live.

12,243. But a few of your neighbours are engaged in it?-No. I think there are none of them engaged in it.

12,244. Is it the same with your father's place?-Yes; there is no ling fishing there at all.

12,245. Have you any accounts with fishermen engaged in the Faroe fishing for other merchants than yourselves?-We have some, but not many.

12,246. I suppose these Faroe men generally open accounts with the merchants in whose smacks they are engaged?-Yes, generally.

12,247. Have you anything to say in addition to what was stated by Mr. Georgeson and Mr. Twatt in their evidence?-The only thing I would like to say is, that I think all the men have complete liberty to engage anywhere they choose, or to go to the fishing or south as they like. I don't think any compulsion is used.

12,248. I don't think any of the previous witnesses said there was any compulsion in that way. Have you ever endeavoured to purchase cured fish?-No.

12,249. Why? Did you never think of it?-No.

12,250. Was that because you considered you would have no chance of getting the fish to buy?-I could hardly say that; but I never thought much about it.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ARCHIBALD ABERNETHY, examined.

12,251. Are you a shopkeeper at Whiteness, in the parish of Tingwall?-I am.

12,252. In what goods do you deal?-Principally in eggs and butter.

12,253. Do you deal in groceries and a little in soft goods?-Yes.

12,254. Do you pay for eggs and butter generally in goods?-Yes, generally; but I very often pay money for eggs too.

12,255. Do you make a difference on the price, according as they are paid for in money or in goods?-Yes; there is a difference of 1/2d. per dozen, as a general rule.

12,256. Have you ever bought fish?-Yes, a little.

12,257. Do you buy them dry or green?-I buy them green, and cure them myself.

12,258. Do you own any boats?-No. Occasionally I may hire a boat and a crew for a month or two about this season of the year for the spring fishing, before they go to Faroe.

12,259. Do you fix the price of your fish at the time they are delivered, or do you settle with the men for them according to the price at the end of the season?-They will scarcely agree to fix a price at the time they are delivered, in case the price of fish may rise during the year, and then they expect to get a better price for them. They prefer to wait until the fish go to the market, and then they know what the price is.

12,260. Is that what is done when you buy the fish green?-Yes.

12,261. In that case, you settle with them according to the current price at the end of the year?-Yes. I generally guarantee to give them that price.

12,262. I thought you said you had only one boat for a short time at this season?-I sometimes have one or two boats for a short time at this season, and that is generally the agreement I make with them.

12,263. Don't you buy the fish promiscuously, as it were, from any man who comes and offers them to you?-Yes.

12,264. Do you do that only in the winter and spring, or also in the summer?-It is only in the winter and spring that I have the chance of doing it. There are scarcely any fish got in our quarter in the summer time, because the fishermen are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing then.

12,265. Are none of them engaged in the ling fishing?-None at all.

12,266. Do you keep accounts for supplies that you make to fishermen?-Yes, a few.

12,267. Are these men engaged in the Faroe or the ling fishing?- Principally in the Faroe fishing.

12,268. Do any of these men get their whole supplies from you?- None of them. I think they are generally supplied from the shops of the owners of the vessels they are in.

12,269. Do they get the most of their supplies from there?-I think so.

12,270. Do these men live near your shop, or are they living at a distance from you?-They live pretty near me. Some of them are near neighbours, and others live about three or four miles away.

12,271. How many men of that kind may there be who deal occasionally with you, but who get the bulk of their supplies from the parties for whom they are fishing?-I should fancy there may be about forty or fifty of them.

12,272. Have most of these men got accounts?-Generally they have, but not to a great extent; perhaps for a few shillings.

12,273. You understand they are supplied chiefly by the merchant for whom they ship?-Yes, generally.

12,274. Would it not be more convenient for them to get their supplies nearer their own homes?-I don't know that it would make much difference. It is not very far from our place to Lerwick. I think it is only about eight or nine miles, and the people generally are in the town every now and again with hosiery and things of that kind.

12,275. Who are the merchants with whom most of the men engage for the Faroe fishing?-I think the principal parties are Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay & and Messrs. Harrison & Sons.

12,276. Do the people generally carry home their meal and provisions from Lerwick when they buy meal there?-A good deal of it comes in that way; but it is a very common thing, when the men are going to Faroe, for them to bring the smack round to Whiteness and leave a boll or two of meal at their houses there before they go away.

12,277. What prices do you pay for the fish caught in spring and winter?-From 6s. 6d. to 7s. We are paying 7s. just now for cod. There are very few ling caught.

12,278 What is the price for the small fish?-It is 4s. 6d. for the smallest and then there are different prices from that upwards until we come to the big size.

12,279. What quantity of fish will you get in that way from a boat's crew in the course of a winter and spring?-I really don't know. I don't get them all. They may come to me with a few cwts. perhaps, and perhaps go to Scalloway or anywhere else with the rest. They are quite at liberty during the winter, so far as I know, to go anywhere they like where they can get the best price. When they come to me they generally take what goods they want, and if there is a balance over they usually get it in cash.

12,280. When they come with fish in that way, I suppose you generally ask them what they want after fixing the price?-They know the price before they come with them, and they generally want some things out of the shop. If they do not, then they get the cash.

[Page 302]

12,281. Do you weigh the fish?-Yes, we weigh them in presence of the men.

12,282. Is not the first thing you do after that to see what goods the people want?-Very seldom. I just ask them if they are wanting any goods, and then they buy them; but they sometimes take the whole price in money, and sometimes they settle previous accounts with fish which they bring in that way. In winter that is generally the way in which they settle their accounts with me.

12,283. Are the accounts which the men run up in summer generally settled by the sale of their winter fish?-Yes; that is the way in which the thing is done in our quarter.

12,284. How many tons of dry fish would you be able to sell from that kind of trade?-Perhaps three or four tons, or the like of that. It is not carried on to any great extent.

12,285. Do you sell these fish at what is called the current price?-No; I just take my chance. I get them dried perhaps in April or May, and send them south.

12,286. Can you sell them earlier than the large fish sales of the year?-Yes. The spring fish are all dry by April or May.

12,287. Is the price of cured fish generally higher early in the season than it is in September, when the large sales take place?-I don't know; the price is very fluctuating.

12,288. Are you aware that the current price this year for ling was £23 per ton?-Yes; but I am not aware of that price having been paid for any of the small fish such as I am speaking of.

12,289. What did you manage to sell your fish for last year?-I sent them principally to Leith, and I got about £16 per ton for them on an average, after deducting expenses. I do not know the price at which the fish were actually sold, but that is what I realized. I sent them to an agent in Leith, and that was my return.

12,290. Do you suppose that any of the men that you bought fish from would get as much as £5 from you in the course of the winter and spring for their fish?-I don't think they would.

12,291. Might one crew get as much as that?-Yes, more than that; or if they were going to the spring fishing also, they would get perhaps £4 or £5 each man for the big cod. I paid more than that per man last year, when they had been both at the winter and spring fishing.

12,292. I suppose most of that would be settled for by the men taking the goods?-No; I think three-fourths of it would be settled for in cash. That would not be so in every case; but in some cases more than three-fourths would be paid in cash.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, LEWIS F.U. GARRIOCK, examined.

12,293. You are a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co., general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick?-I am.

12,294. You have prepared a statement which you wish to appear as part of your evidence?-Yes.

12,295. Is that statement correct?-It is, to the best of my knowledge.

[The witness then handed in the following statement:-]

'I am a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co. general merchants and fish-curers at Reawick.

'Mr. Umphray, the senior of the firm, and myself, are proprietors of land. Mr. Umphray, my younger brother, and I, are joint factors on the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.

'I am trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles.

'Our general store for all sorts of goods is at Reawick. We have, besides, two small shops or general stores, one in the Island of Foula where there are about forty families, and the other at Sandness, where there are about seventy-five families.

'We engage our fishermen and servants from the district of country comprising the parishes of Weisdale, Aithsting, Sandsting, Walls, Sandness, and Foula, with a few from districts beyond Tingwall, Burra, etc.

'We cured last season the fish from ten smacks fishing at Faroe, Iceland, etc., and five smaller vessels prosecuting the fishing in the neighbourhood of our own and the Orkney Islands. There are other owners interested in some of these vessels, but we engaged the crews on shares; and at the end of the season, when the value of the fish was realized, we accounted with owners and men for their proportions. The gross value will be about . . . £4600 0 0 The cost of bait, salt-curing, etc., . . £650 0 0 The cost of biscuit, coals on owners' account, 250 0 0 Proportion paid crew individually, . . 2200 0 0 Proportion paid owners, 1500 0 0 £4600 0 0

'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash, under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but they are under no obligation to take such advance from us and can, if they choose buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either for cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of the men can do without advances, having spare money; but the fishing could not be carried on if we were not to supply them, especially as regards the lads in their first and second year.

'In years when the fishing is not remunerative merchants making those advances lose heavily in bad debts.

'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them for £427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and provisions on board, £71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal, etc., to their families, £114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, £239, 17s. The other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, £81, 7s. 11d.; goods, £129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, £374, 13s. 6d. The same crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., £63, 3s. 4d.; goods, £67, 7s.; cash, £198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years as regards our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably more than half their gross shares paid them in cash.

'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to English smacks fishing for us at it contract price-and we derive about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were such a mode attempted it would lead to fixed wages, and would end in loss to both men and owners, and a great falling off in this branch of the fishery.

'BOATS.-About one-fourth of our cure last year was from open boats-six-oared boats at far haaf, and four-oared boats at home haaf. About 63 tons of these are from crews who cure their own fish, and deliver at one time, at the end of the curing season. The remaining 71 tons are delivered fresh every day, as landed at our stations. Those who cure their own fish, whether they have advances of salt, meal, etc., from us or not, are at perfect liberty to treat with and sell to any merchant they can get the best price from when their fish are ready. Their boats and gear are all their own. The understanding about those delivered fresh is, that we pay not less than the current rate of the country. These men, as well as the others, own their boats and gear. The peculiarities of their situation make this mode of delivering in a fresh state a necessity. At two of the stations we receive from in that way; and we prefer it, although the fish should [Page 303] cost us higher than those cured by the men themselves, as we can make a much better article, having skilled men and better appliances. To show that our boat fishers do see more than a pound at settlement, I take the liberty to hand you herewith an abstract of my settlement last and previous month with the men at two stations in Walls, by which it appears that 36 men employed at far haaf, and 34 men at home haaf, had value in fish, £829, 19s. 1d. Our supplies in boats, lines, salt, meal, and other goods, was £29, 0s. 81/2d.; and I paid them in cash £600, 18s. 41/2d. I have not access to some of the station books; but, from an abstract of my last year's settlement at one of these stations, there was placed to credit of the men for fish, work, curing, etc., £655, 0s. 6d., which was thus disposed of: '1st. To account of arrears of advances of meal, etc., from previous years, £71 12 7 '2d. Fishing material, meal, goods, and cash from storekeeper during year, 270 7 2 '3d. Cash at settlement, 313 0 9

'It is not always so; this same island for three years, 1867-69, suffered severely from the crops being blasted, and the fishing of 1868 proving a failure (each fisherman's earnings for the whole year only amounting to about £3). We supplied them with meal during these years, at the end of which they were due us £228, 19s. 9d., besides some arrears of rent to Dr. Scott. All this is now cleared off, unless some three or four individuals; and the more provident have a good few pounds saved.

'In settling with our men, the whole crew, both as respects smacks and boats, are brought in together, and the statement of the division is gone over carefully. Afterwards each man comes separately, and every item of his account read over, or if a pass-book is kept (which is very common) it is made up. Copies of the account are given in every case when desired. I think our men are perfectly satisfied with the present system.

'The tenants on the Melby estate are perfectly free to earn their living as they choose; and it is the same as regards Mr. Umphray's tenants (who number 75) and my own. On going over the roll of Mr. Umphray's tenants, I observe there are only 17 fishing to my firm (some of them only part of the season), and of my tenants only 4.

'It is the exception, not the rule, for our fishermen to be in debt to us. Of the 70 men representing the sixteen crews of which I have given particulars, all had money to get, with the exception of six, who are due us balances to the amount of £33, 2s.

'We employed last year 40 beach boys, from 13 to 17 years of age. All had cash to get at settlement, and none are in advance on the coming season.

'HOSIERY.-We take hosiery in barter for any sort of goods required, including meal and provisions. We have found this branch of trade uniformly a losing one but it is convenient for our customers-families who occupy their spare time from farm work in knitting plain articles-to get such exchanged; and it would put them much about if we were to give it up, being so far from Lerwick, and the neighbouring country shops only taking such things as they have an outlet for. A good many of the girls go to town, perhaps once in the year, with their hosiery.

'EGGS.-We take in eggs in the same way, but pay cash readily when asked.

'We have only one price in our stores for goods, whether sold for cash or barter.

'My firm has no separate account for the wife, and with other members of the family, unless when such are working or fishing for themselves.'

12,296. You say in your statement that Mr. Umphray and yourself are proprietors of land: is that in the district in which your business is carried on?-Mr. Umphray is a proprietor of land there. His rental is somewhere between £300 and £400, and the number of his tenants is between 70 and 80.

12,297. What is the rental and the number of tenants on the Melby estate?-The rental is about £1200, and there are nearly 300 tenants; but I cannot give the exact number.

12,298. Do most of the tenants on these estates fish for you in summer?-There are more of them who fish for us than for any other.

12,299. Do you think all who are engaged in the ling fishing fish for you?-By no means; but I should say that fully three-fourths of them do.

12,300. You say in your statement that you are trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles: are they the Misses Scott of Scalloway?-Yes. Mrs. Spence and Miss Scott.

12,301. Are you aware that some complaints were made by the inhabitants of the Burra Isles, a few years ago, to the agent for the proprietors in Edinburgh?-Yes, there was a letter sent to him.

12,302. In consequence of these complaints, did you make an investigation and report?-Yes; I went to the island to inquire into the matter. The prayer of the petition was, that the proprietors should be more careful, when another lease was given, not to allow certain things which the tenants complained of to be inserted in it.

12,303. At that time was a new lease in contemplation?-No; there were two or three years to run of the old lease.

12,304. Was the lease of Burra, under which the islands were then held by Messrs. Hay, granted during your management?-No; it had been granted some years before.

12,305. A copy of the letter to Mr. Mack which occasioned the inquiry, was sent to you at the time?-Yes.

12,306. The first complaint in that letter was, 'That every householder is bound to pay £1 sterling annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing smack, not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea Co.; otherwise he must remove from the island, or expel any such son from his home.' I have not seen the lease in question, but did you find that that was a well-founded complaint?-There was nothing of the kind stated in the lease. My understanding of the complaint is, that when the lease was taken by Messrs. Hay, they entered into an arrangement with the tenants with regard to the terms on which they were to occupy under them.

12,307. Did you ascertain whether any such stipulation had been entered into between Messrs. Hay and the tenants?-I investigated the matter upon the spot, but I could not find any case where the money had been paid.

12,308. In what year did you make the investigation?-In 1869.

12,309. Did you find any case in which the money had been demanded?-I did not find any; but I understand that Messrs. Hay had sent round or had handed to each of the tenants the terms of the engagement under which they were to occupy, and that there was something about it in that. I did not see it myself; but I understood they were either to fish to Messrs. Hay, or to have liberty to fish elsewhere if they chose on payment of £1. That was the rule that had been laid down by Messrs. Hay; but I could not trace any case in which the money had been paid.

12,310. Have you any objection to state the name of the party who wrote the letter to Mr. Mack which you now hold in your hand?-I believe it was a private communication, and I would rather not mention the name. The writer says, 'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential communication may receive your kind consideration.' I don't know that it is of much importance who wrote the letter; but I may mention that he was a minister who was in the habit of visiting the island, and to whom some of the people had made complaints. It became very clear to me, from my investigation, that the case had been very much overstated. I got particulars of the prices paid to the men for several years, and I made inquiry at other places in the neighbourhood about the prices, and I could not find that they had any cause of complaint about the prices paid to them for their fish.

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12,311. Did you find the statement to be correct which is contained in the third head of the letter: 'The price given is never less than 1s. per cwt. below the average paid for green fish in the islands; and in the case of herring, not less than 5s. per cran below the market price is a common thing'?-There was no foundation for that statement whatever. I found the Burra people were getting fully as much as any other fishermen.

12,312. Did you ascertain that from an examination of the books of Messrs. Hay & Co, or from statements made by the people themselves?-I ascertained the prices paid to the men from Messrs. Hay & Co.'s books, and on comparing it with the prices paid in other localities, I found that that was an unfounded statement altogether.

12,313. Did you find that the fourth complaint, about oysters being underpaid, was correct?-I found that in that very season the men were selling their oysters where they liked. There was no restriction at all at that time. There had been before. I believe Messrs. Hay had endeavoured to prevent anybody from coming in and dredging upon the oyster beds that lay between the islands, and to get the people to deliver the oysters to them; but they had given up that before that time and allowed them to sell them where they chose.

12,314. I suppose the result of there being no restriction is that the oyster beds are nearly exhausted?-They are almost entirely exhausted. In the course of two seasons they were all taken up.

12,315. Did you ascertain whether a regular system of deception had been practised in order to evade the obligation to deliver to Messrs. Hay, while the restriction existed about the oysters?-I did not find that there was a regular system of deception, because, at the time when I made my inquiry, any oysters which the men dredged were sold where they pleased. Messrs. Hay found out, that unless they had an Act of Parliament, they did not have the power of hindering the men from selling where they chose. That oyster bed had been held by the proprietor almost exclusively as his own property, and for generations it was dealt with as such. Messrs. Hay & Co. came into the proprietor's place and I daresay they very naturally supposed that they had the same right; but on the men insisting on selling where they chose, they found they could not prevent them.

12,316. Did you find that at the time when it was supposed Messrs. Hay had that power, a system of deception had prevailed, as is alleged in this letter, in order to evade the supposed obligation?- That is one way of putting it; but I should suppose that before the matter was determined as to the right of the people to sell oysters where they chose, they had been in the habit of quietly going to other parties with the oysters, that Messrs. Hay should not know.

12,317. Then I suppose that, so far as it went, that complaint was not very far from the truth?-It was perfectly untrue. The statement made in the complaint was that Messrs. Hay only gave 1s. per 100, and that that was paid in goods, while the men could get 2s. 6d. elsewhere. I found that to be utterly untrue.

12,318. Was it the case that Messrs. Hay paid a larger price than was stated, or that the higher price could not be obtained elsewhere?-Oysters had been selling years before as low as 1s. per 100; but Messrs. Hay were paying the same price as other people at that time. I think 2s. 6d. was the price in 1869.

12,319. Were Messrs. Hay paying that price then?-They were paying the same as Mr. Harcus who is still a buyer.

12,320. Was he the only other buyer?-No. I believe Mr. Nicholson and Mr. Tait also purchased about that time.

12,321. But the previous time, when the oysters were selling for 1s. per 100, was before the date of your inquiry?-Yes, it must have been some time before.

12,322. Could a larger price have been got elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I don't know. I know that oysters were not so dear at that time as they became afterwards; but at the time when Messrs. Hay & Co. were the only parties buying oysters, they got very few. They were not fished to any great extent.

12,323. Did you find that the fifth complaint, that every person on the island selling any article to a neighbour was liable to expulsion, had any foundation?-It had a foundation to this extent, that Messrs. Hay did not allow anybody to set up a shop in the island; but it was nonsense to say that people were not allowed to sell any article to a neighbour, such as fish or any of their produce.

12,324. A resident clergyman or schoolmaster might have got fish for his table if he wanted them?-Yes, or any article of produce that the people had. The complaint was only true so far that the people were not allowed to set up retail shops in the island.

12,325. Was there any prohibition on selling tea?-That is what I refer to.

12,326. Even if they had no shop, was not one neighbour prevented from selling a 1/2 lb. or 1/4 lb. of tea to another?-I am not aware that Messrs. Hay ever looked into the matter so closely as that.

12,327. But was not that the substance of their complaint?-Of course, if anybody had set up a tea-shop, that would have been objected to. But this complaint refers to the practice of getting tea and other goods from merchants in exchange for hosiery; and it goes on to say, that if a woman exchanged that for anything she wanted, she exposed her family to the loss of house and land, and expulsion from the island, if she was known to sell any of the goods she had received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour.

12,328. Did you hear of any person being expelled for that?-No, nor threatened. They told me that several of them would have had tea and various other things in the island for selling to their neighbours, if they had been allowed, but that they were prevented from doing so, and I approved of that.

12,329. Did you find that the people were in a state of nervous apprehension about expulsion?-Not in the least.

12,330. Then how do you account for this letter, and for these charges being made, if they were not in a state of anxiety and nervousness about the matter?-I think the case was put much more strongly in the letter than it had been put to the writer of the letter by the people themselves.

12,331. You don't think that the people of Shetland or the inhabitants of Burra are liable to panics of that kind?-There was no panic that I was aware of at that time. Some of the people, when I read over the letter to them, were very much amused to hear what had been said, and they attributed the statements to two or three persons who were usually dissatisfied with their condition.

12,332. Is it within your knowledge whether the Burra people were in the habit for a series of years of carrying over their oysters to Lerwick, and retailing them there openly?-Yes. I have often met them carrying oysters to Lerwick in kishies for the purpose of selling them there.

12,333. You are acquainted with that from the fact that you then resided in Scalloway?-Yes, and from coming and going and meeting the people.

12,334. Did you find existing in Burra, at that time, feeling of bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants under them?-I could not say that there was anything of that sort. I found that the people would much rather not have been under a lessee at all, but have been allowed each to fish for himself.

12,335. Did they wish to fish and cure for themselves?-Some of them would have liked that, but I found from the best fishermen that they would not have considered that to be any advantage for the island on the whole.

12,336. What reason did they assign for their objection to being under a lessee?-Just that they were under certain restrictions as to the ling fishing; and naturally a man would prefer to be altogether free, and to be able to deal as he chose.

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12,337. Did you think these restrictions were such that the people might reasonably complain of them?-I thought they had not much to complain of.

12,338. At that time the lease of Messrs. Hay & Co. was within a year or two of its termination?-Yes. I think it was the last year of it.

12,339. The letter was dated 5th April 1869, and think the lease expired in November following. Has it been renewed since?-No. The tack has been continued on the old plan for two years, as a sort of intermediate arrangement. There is just a missive which expires in November next. Indeed I had some difficulty in getting Messrs. Hay to renew the arrangement, even for two years.

12,340. Were they unwilling to resume their liability for the rents upon the same terms?-Yes. The reason they gave to me was, that the great bulk of the people were fishing where they chose, and that they did not have much profit by the island.

12,341. Do you mean in the ling fishing, or in the Faroe fishing?- I mean in the fishings generally. There were only a few old men remaining at home for the fishings, and it was not a great deal of the produce of the island that they had anything to do with.

12,342. Do Messrs. Hay pay the tack duty annually or half-yearly to the proprietors?-Half-yearly.

12,343. The tenants, I suppose, as is usual in Shetland, pay only once a year?-Yes, they pay in November.

12,344. If the proprietors were taking the ground into their own hands, is it probable they would require the tenants to pay half-yearly, or has that been in your contemplation?-The money would require to be raised half-yearly, because it has to be paid half-yearly. There are heavy liabilities such as interest on bonds to be paid out of it every half-year, and the money must be raised for that purpose.

12,345. Do you believe it to be possible for the tenants in Havera, or on such an island, to pay their rents half-yearly?-I don't think such a system would work. Spring and summer is the time when they earn their money to pay their rents with, and we would not be able to collect the rents at Whitsunday from the tenants.

12,346. Are you aware whether the tacksmen of Burra interfere with the tenants in the sale of their cattle hosiery, or eggs?-I know they do not interfere with them in that way.

12,347. Are you aware whether the tacksmen insist on the tenants taking their supplies from their shops at Scalloway or Lerwick?-I am sure they do not. Nobody ever alleged that to me.

12,348. Would you as trustee for the proprietors, object to such a restriction?-Certainly.

12,349. Are you the factor on the estate?-I am trustee. I have to collect the money from the property, and pay the burdens, and account to the ladies for the residue.

12,350. Do you suppose the Burra islanders would be benefited by the establishment of shops in Burra by the tacksmen?-I don't think that would be any particular benefit to them.

12,351. Is there a population there to support shops?-Not shops.

12,352. Or a shop?-I daresay a shop might pay; but I don't think it would be any advantage to the people. They are so near to Scalloway that a shop in Burra would only get a portion of the custom of the island.

12,353. Do you think the Burra men have an opportunity of purchasing their goods at other shops than Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Certainly; they don't deal exclusively with them. They can buy their goods where they like and I think they divide their custom very much.

12,354. Where else do they buy?-In the other Scalloway shops and in Lerwick.

12,355. Did you ascertain that in the course of the inquiry which you made in 1869?-It is a fact well known to me from my intercourse with the people, I am meeting them every month, not on the island, but elsewhere.

12,356. Do they tell you that they purchase their goods elsewhere than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I never put the question to them, because I was quite aware of their dealings being divided. A great many of the men are fishing to smack owners in Lerwick, and probably have a good deal of their dealings with the merchants they fish to.

12,357. Are some of them in your own Faroe vessels?-Yes, we have two or three.

12,358. Is that your reason for believing that they are not confined in their dealings to the shops of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I know that to be a fact, from various circumstances.

12,359. But you know it from the circumstance that they are engaged in fishing to other merchants?-No; that does not follow.

12,360. It does not follow as a necessary consequence that they do not deal with Messrs. Hay & Co. but it is a reasonable presumption, that if they are fishing to another merchant they get some of their supplies from his shop?-Certainly.

12,361. Are you prepared to say that the bulk of the dealings of the Burra men is not at Messrs. Hay's shops?-I should think that much more than one half of their dealings must be with other people. That is speaking of the whole population of the island, and including those men who go to Faroe.

12,362. Are the greater number of the men in Burra engaged in the Faroe fishing?-There are more of them engaged in the Faroe fishing than in any other.

12,363. And more on an average than in other districts in Shetland?-Yes. They have taken to that kind of fishing more readily than others.

12,364. How, does it happen that they have taken to it?-I don't know; I suppose it is just from their position, and their early training in boats. They take to a good fishing rather than to the Greenland trade. They are generally good fishermen. Taking them as a class, they are better fishermen than in any other district that I know of in Shetland.

12,365. Would it be a reasonable presumption to suppose that they had taken to the Faroe fishing in order to avoid the restrictions which are laid upon them with regard to the ling fishing?- Certainly not. These young men would not have remained at home about the shore fishing. If they had not gone to Faroe they would have gone to the merchant service or to Greenland.

12,366. Do you think the restriction had anything at all to do with it?-Nothing whatever.

12,367. But you ascertained in the course of your inquiries, and you know now, that there is a restriction by the terms of their leases upon the Burra men with regard to the ling fishing?-Yes, they hold their land under condition that they are to deliver their fish to Messrs, Hay.

12,368. Your largest shop is at Reawick, and you have also two small ones at Foula and Sandness?-Yes.

12,369. Do most of the fishermen engaged in the ling fishing usually deal at one or other of the stores you have mentioned?- Yes; there is no other store near.

12,370. Do you mean that there is no other store near Reawick?- No. I thought you referred to the two smaller shops. All the men get the whole of their supplies from our stores there.

12,371. At Sandness and Foula there are no other stores within reach of the fishermen residing there?-No.

12,372. Is there any restriction upon the opening of other shops in Foula, or on the sale of goods there by any other party who chooses to attempt that?-As acting for the proprietor, I don't think we would allow it. We would not allow small shops in either of these districts if we could help it.

12,373. Would you allow a trader from Scalloway or Lerwick to sell goods out of his smack there?-Yes; and I have known instances of them going there from [Page 306] Walls and Scalloway. There is no restriction upon the like of that.

12,374. Are the inhabitants sometimes supplied with meal and articles of dress and provisions by other merchants from the mainland?-The Foula people, annually, when their fishing is over, come to the mainland, and they can then lay in what supplies they are in need of.

12,375. Do they come in every year themselves?-Not the whole of them, but many of them do.

12,376. Do you know whether or not any traders visit the islands for the purpose of selling provisions or goods?-No; they have not done that lately. They could have no object in going there.

12,377. Why?-Because they could not compete with us. We have a shop there for the supply of goods, and we supply them to the people on as moderate terms as other parties could do. Therefore the men have no object in dealing elsewhere.

12,378. I suppose it would be a very small trade that could be driven with 40 families?-Yes, rather.

12,379. But I presume you consider it fair that, as you supply these families year by year, and are in a sense responsible that their supply shall not run short, you should in return have the bulk of their business?-They may go where they choose.

12,380. But would you continue to supply them if you did not have the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the young men wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to the mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it, and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty or not and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to the schoolmaster, and asked him, to circulate it among the men.

[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in the affirmative by 65 men:-

'Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a curing establishment on the island of Foula, and found the undivided produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of it, while furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at ordinary rates, would, now that some parties have shown an inclination and even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain the views of the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to continue their establishment as before; or would they prefer each to cure as it suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? Whilst there is always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour, and sell their produce in what appears to them the best market, the isolated position of the island appears to require that one system be followed by all.

'The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the former system be preferred; or no if otherwise.-1867.']

12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created

great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they would be left to their own resources.

12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the islanders?-Yes, we went on as before.

12,383. Was it previous to that that the last attempt was made to trade in the island by outside traders?-I think so; I do not think there has been anything of that sort attempted for several years.

12,384. Do you remember when any attempt of that kind was made?-I cannot say. I remember hearing of some boats coming in from Walls or Scalloway, I forget which.

12,385. Did you object to any one coming from Orkney?-No, not in this generation. They came from Orkney above 80 years ago.

12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made by the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.

12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to the inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and boats there, and part of their trade would not pay. I may say that we supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at Reawick.

12,388. The majority of the fishermen engaged in your ling fishing, you have said, have their accounts at one or other of your shops, and those at Foula and Sandness have no other shops within reach?-Yes.

12,389. Is it not the case that many of the men have accounts and take their supplies at Reawick, who live much more conveniently for other dealers in the district?-Yes, we have accounts with many people in the neighbourhood of other shops.

12,390. But the men come to you, I suppose, because they sell their fish to you?-I don't know. For instance, we give very small supplies to the Walls men. They deal a good deal in the shops in their own neighbourhood, and we pay them for their fish in cash. I have mentioned in my statement, that of £829, 19s. 1d., which was the amount of their earnings, we paid them 18s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement. These men lived from 8 to 10 miles distant from Reawick, and with some of them we have no dealings in goods at all.

12,391. Do men who live nearer Reawick take a greater amount of supplies from you?-Yes.

12,392. Why do you not adopt, with these men on the mainland, the same rule which you have laid down at Foula, that you must have their whole dealings or none?-We don't require to do it with the men on the mainland. They are at perfect liberty to deal where they choose.

12,393. But you might lay down that rule if you pleased?-We might; but I would not consider it fair to do so.

12,394. Would it be impracticable to carry it out?-I don't know. I suppose it is done in some places in Shetland; but the men in our neighbourhood have always been free to deal where they chose, since we had anything to do with them, and we were always prepared to pay them for their fish in money.

12,395. But, in point of fact, they have sometimes taken a very large portion of their earnings in goods?-I think, when we give in our schedules, it will be found that we have paid them more than one half of their earnings in money.

12,396. Was it not the case formerly, that the amount paid in goods was much larger than it has been for the last few years?- I don't think so.

12,397. I understand you buy a considerable quantity of fish which have been already cured by the crews themselves?-Yes. We don't look upon these men as our fishermen. They are at perfect liberty to sell their fish when they are cured, to any one they please.

12,398. But, in point of fact, many of these crews are composed of tenants upon your own or Mr. Umphray's property, or on Melby?-Yes, a good many of the ling fishers are.

12,399. Are you aware whether these men have been invited to sell their cured fish to other dealers than you?-Yes; I suppose they have offers every year.

12,400. But they generally prefer to sell them to you?-They do. We can always give them the best price, because we are exporters, and buy from the merchants; and we have always given the men the benefit of the highest price going.

12,401. Have you been told by them that they have been offered a higher price than you paid them, but that they preferred notwithstanding to sell to you?-No; I never knew of any case of that sort.

12,402. I have been told today that some men in that district have been willing to give a higher, or at least as high, a price as that which you gave at the end of the season for cured fish, and that they could not get the fishermen to give them the chance of buying them at all: has that come within your knowledge?-I think that is wrong. I was not present when these parties were examined to-day; but I know that one of them near our station at Dale offered the men this year £21 [Page 307] for their ling if they would sell them, but they preferred just to put fish into our hands without the price being stated, and we paid them £22 for the same fish.

12,403. What was the current price this year?-The shipping price for ling was £23, but these fish cured by the men themselves are not equal to the fish cured by us or by the larger curers. They are somewhat inferior, as they are cured in smaller quantities.

12,404. Were the men to whom that offer was made mostly tenants of your farm, or on the Melby estate?-Not necessarily; but I think the bulk of them must have been tenants on Melby.

12,405. Has any intimation ever been made to the tenants on that estate that they ought to sell their fish to you?-Never.

12,406. Has the contrary been intimated to them by Dr. Scott or by yourself?-It has always been given out that they were at perfect freedom to fish where they chose.

12,407. In your statement about the Faroe fishing, you say that the fishing could not be carried on if you were not to supply them, especially as regards lads in their first and second year: is it the case that lads at the Faroe fishing, in their first and second years, are generally much more deeply in debt to the merchant than the older men?-Yes; they require larger outfits, and they have not had any means of earning money before with which to buy clothes.

12,408. Are these outfits necessarily obtained from the merchant who owns the smack in which they sail?-We are obliged to advance them to them. It is rather a risky thing for us sometimes, but they cannot go to the fishing unless they have such supplies.

12,409. Still you can secure yourselves at settlement?-Yes, if they make a fishing.

12,410. And if they don't make a fishing, they will probably engage with you in the following year?-As a rule they do.

12,411. If they did not, you could take them to the Small-Debt Court?-Of course; but we always prefer a free man to a man who is in the book with balance against him.

12,412. Do you find that such a man fishes with more heart than a man who is in debt?-Undoubtedly.

12,413. He thinks he is going to get something for himself, and not merely something to pay off a debt?-For many years we have had very few indebted men, so that I cannot say much about that.

12,414. In arranging with the crew of a smack for the year's fishing, do you embody your agreement in writing?-Yes; it is a stamped agreement. There is one for the crew of each smack, and they are written out each year.

12,415. Do they differ materially in their details?-They are all the same for the Faroe fishing. They have been altered from year to year, according to circumstances, but not very much.

12,416. Does that agreement leave the whole power of disposing of the produce and of fixing the price in the hands of the fish-curer?-Not of fixing the price exactly. The men are to be paid at the current price for the year. That is their stipulation with us.

12,417. But the ascertainment of the current price is left entirely to the merchant?-Yes. The merchants have to dispose of the fish, and account for them to the men.

12,418. These agreements make the fishermen and the merchant really partners or joint adventurers, so far as the fishing of the season is concerned?-Of course they do.

12,419. But it leaves the merchant in the position of having the sole power over the produce, both as to selling it and fixing the price?-He has the power of completing the cure of it and of selling it. The merchant has to take the risk in selling. If we were to sell to a party who failed, we would still be responsible to the men for the current price.

12,420. Is that expressed in the agreement?-I don't think it is expressed in our agreement, but it is understood.

12,421. Is it not the case that the fishermen can only claim what is really got for the fish?-No. If we were to sell them at half-price, we would still be bound to pay the men the current rate at the end of the season.

12,422. If you sold them for the current price, but failed to recover that price from the buyer, would the fishermen have any recourse against you?-Yes; we would have to pay them.

12,423. Has that been done frequently?-No. There was one instance where we sold fish and got almost nothing for them, and yet accounted to the men for the price. I think that was in 1867. The party to whom we sold the fish stopped payment, and we only got a small compromise.

12,424. Had you paid your fishermen before the failure?-I think not; at least we knew of the loss before we settled with the fishermen, but there never was any thought of not paying them. We knew that we were responsible for the payment to the men, under the terms of the agreement.

12,425. Then the agreement does lay the risk upon you?-Yes, it does lay the risk upon us, although it does not expressly state anything about a loss.

12,426. The other articles in the agreement provide for the amount of food to be furnished by the owners?-Yes.

12,427. And a scale of victualling if the men go to Iceland?-No, we have nothing about that. Our fishermen are all partners to the end of the season. We do not pay them in wages at all.

12,428. Are there not sometimes special stipulations for that event?-Other owners sometimes send out their vessels on wages, but then it is another agreement altogether that is entered into.

12,429. What are the other conditions in your agreement?-The owners bind themselves to find the ship, and everything relating to her; to provide the coals necessary for the voyage; and to give the men an allowance of 8 lbs. of bread per week. The men, on the other side, agree to accept of a certain proportion of the fishing: one half, after deducting certain items for salting and curing the fish, in full of wages, or as their interest in the affair; and they also provide bait. The details of the agreement are given in the statement I have produced.

12,430. You say that sixty-three tons of your cure is from crews who cure their own fish and deliver them at one time at the end of the curing season; and these, of course, as you have already said, would be sold at a rather lower price than fish of your own cure?-Yes. They are never equal to our own cure; indeed they cannot be, from want of skill; and from the fish being cured in very small quantities, they can never be properly pressed.

12,431. Do you know of any case in which a trader in Walls attempted some time ago to introduce the practice of buying fish, and paying for them in cash at delivery?-Yes, I have heard of that, I think, in more cases than one.

12,432. Have you tried it yourself?-No, I don't think we have. Sometimes, if we buy small quantities from the fishermen, we pay them in cash if they wish it so.

12,433. But you have not known any case in which that has been attempted throughout the whole year?-I think the men could always sell for cash at any season if they chose.

12,434. Could they sell in that way to you?-Yes, to me or to any of the dealers in Walls. We would be quite prepared to take their fish and to pay them cash, but we would pay for them at such a safe price that they would not sell them.

12,435. Have you known of any dealer other than yourself who has attempted to introduce that system?-I know that the Walls people have offered to buy from the fishermen generally, and to pay cash if they chose, and they have probably paid some.

12,436. Do you know why they have not succeeded in carrying out that system?-They could not agree with the men about the price. They would not give so high a price in cash as the men expected.

12,437. You say that last year you employed forty beach boys from thirteen to seventeen years of age, all [Page 308] of whom had cash to get, and none of whom are in advance on the coming season: is that a usual state of things with the people employed in curing?-It is with us.

12,438. But I suppose that, in fact, they all take supplies from your stores during the season?-Yes, more or less. They must have meal to live upon, at any rate.

12,439. And they get that as they want it from you in the course of the season?-Yes.

12,440. Are they paid by beach fees?-Yes; they are paid by a certain sum, which is settled for at the end of the season.

12,441. Are any of them paid by weekly wages?-We have a number of people employed in curing fish, who are paid either daily or weekly-just occasional hands; and we sometimes have to put out quantities of fish to be cured by contract. These are paid for in cash as soon as the fish are put into the store and weighed.

12,442. In that case, are advances made at your store to the parties so employed?-Yes. We sometimes advance money while the work is going on, but never goods.

12,443. If they want money, do they come to you with a line from the contractor?-We have never given it in that way. If the contractor requires some money to pay the people who are working for him, he comes for it himself.

12,444. Have you any dealings at all with the parties employed under your contractor, or do you make him transact all the necessary business with them?-We transact with him entirely: we have nothing to do with the parties under him.

12,445. Do you also employ parties in the curing at weekly wages yourselves?-Yes. At Reawick and at all the stations we have extra hands on when there is much to do.

12,446. Do you find that these parties require to come to you for supplies before the weekly pay-day?-There are some cases of that kind, I daresay.

12,447. Is it not the case, in the majority of cases, that you have to give them supplies?-The most of our payments in that way are in cash, and they are made every week or ten days.

12,448. Is Saturday your pay-day?-We have no fixed pay-day for the people employed among the fish.

12,449. If they require to come for, advances in the meantime, in what way are these given out?-Most of our work in that way is done at Scalloway, where we have no shop, and we could not give them goods. They get their money when their work is done every week, or at all events within the fortnight.

12,450. Do they not get advances of money in the interim?-No, not the daily hands. The contractors whom I mentioned before sometimes get some money.

12,451. But the daily hands don't get any money until the settlement?-Not as a rule. I may perhaps give them a few shillings between the pays, but that is not common thing; they don't require it.

12,452. If they want supplies in the meantime, have you any idea how they get them?-I have no doubt they can get credit from the shops in Scalloway.

12,453. Do you know whether they have a practice of applying to your manager there for a line or a certificate, to the effect that they have wages to receive in order to satisfy the shopkeeper?-No; I don't think they do that.

12,454. Have you ever known of such cases?-I don't remember of any case, and I don't think there has ever been a case of the kind.

12,455. Do you know whether these people run accounts with the shopkeepers in Scalloway?-I know that often what they have to get on the Saturday night is partly forestalled in the shops.

12,456. Have they told you that, or how have you found it out?-I have found out from the shops that they were giving them credit.

12,457. Have the shopkeepers applied to you to stop their wages?-No; I would not stand that. I have always paid the money over to the people themselves, and if they have run accounts they have to go themselves and pay them.

12,458. Have you found a tendency among the people employed by you to run into debt in that way at Scalloway?-Yes.

12,459. Do you not think that is due to the system which prevails in the country, of running accounts instead of paying in ready money?-I cannot say.

12,460. Would you say that a party who was engaged to work to you for a week at curing, feels that it is a natural thing when he has money to receive at the end of the week, to have it all exhausted by his out-takes from the shop before it is due?-I don't know if it is the feeling; but it is just a custom they have got into, and a bad custom.

12,461. Then there is such a tendency to get into debt before the pay is due even when it is paid in cash?-Yes, there is a tendency in that way.

12,462. You say that you found the hosiery trade a losing one for you, but convenient for your customers?-Yes; that is the only reason why we have anything to do with it.

12,463. Is it convenient for your customers because they get supplies of goods for hosiery at your shop, without the necessity of taking the hosiery to another market and selling it?-Yes. When they come to us with money and eggs, and produce of that kind, they may have some hosiery with them too; and we cannot very well turn them away, and cause them to go a great distance with it.

12,464. Do you fix the price of the hosiery?-Yes.

12,465. You do not require to take it at a price which would not remunerate yourselves?-No. Of course, if they asked more than we were inclined to give, they would have to take it away.

12,466. Have you any dealings in kelp?-None. There is some kelp on Dr. Scott's property, but Mr. Adie purchases it.

12,467. Does he pay a rent to Mr. Scott for the kelp shores?-He pays a trifle; it is not much.

12,468. You say you have a certain number of boats engaged in what is called the home cod fishing?-Yes, they are small smacks.

12,469. You are almost the only people who are still engaged in that business?-Yes.

12,470. What number of vessels do you employ in that way?-We had five out last year; we used to have ten or twelve.

12,471. What would be the number of the crews in these five vessels?-They would average nine hands.

12,472. How long in the year are they engaged in that fishing?- For a little more than three months, from 1st May to 15th August. The men in that fishing go on shares, and are settled with in the same way as those on board the Faroe smacks. The arrangement as to the division is different in these vessels The crew get seven-twelfths of the earnings, and we don't find bread or coals.

12,473. Do these men come home oftener than the Faroe fishers?-Yes; they come home weekly. I now produce a settlement with one of these vessels. [Produces it.]

12,474. That shows that, as nearly as possible, four-fifths of the whole earnings were paid in cash?-Yes. Two of these men are our tenants. I think we had three of Mr. Hay's tenants in that vessel. It is a mixed crew; we never ask whose property they are on when we engage them.

12,475. You say in your statement that your firm has no separate accounts for the wife and none with the other members of the family, unless when they are working or fishing for themselves: is that when the other members of the family are fishermen or beach boys?-Yes.

12,476. Or when the wife is engaged in curing?-We have no married women employed in any branch of our business.

12,477. Do you keep any account with women engaged in the curing?-No. These women are only employed by the day.

12,478. I believe that you are yourself a skilful boatman, and acquainted with the fishing in all its details? Do you think it possible in Shetland to prosecute the [Page 309] winter fishing to a greater extent than at present, if boats of a superior class were introduced?-Not to any great extent. I have no doubt the fishing will increase. It is increasing, and will increase, and the boats will be improved

12,479. I presume you would be glad to continue curing to as large an extent in winter as in summer, if you could get the fish delivered to you?-Yes. I think there are facilities all round Shetland for that and they could sell their fish any day. It is not for the want of a market that the men don't fish. The great barrier is the weather.

12,480. Would the weather be as great a barrier if the boats were of an improved class?-The men could not have a better class of boats than they have.

12,481. Would decked boats not enable them to fish all the winter?-No.

12,482. What is the difference in that respect between Shetland and the east coast of Scotland?-We have a heavier sea, and more uncertain weather here. Our present boats can go out in a lull, and some more quickly ashore when the weather gets rough; but the heavier decked vessels could not do that. In order to fish with decked vessels, the men would require to remain at sea in good and bad weather.

12,483. Would that be impracticable here?-I think so. It would not pay.

12,484. Would that be from want of a market?-No; it would be because there was not enough good weather, and the men would not catch fish enough. Some of the welled smacks have gone out in winter, and gone up to Grimsby with their fish, and that has paid occasionally.

12,485. Are there vessels of that class in use in Shetland?-Yes, several. Mr. Harrison had one up in December which succeeded very well, and there is one out from Scalloway just now at Faroe; but it is not considered that it will be extensively or generally continued, the fishing is so precarious.

12,486. Are the men unwilling to engage in the winter fishing in any of these modes?-I think it will be very difficult to get many men to go to it.

12,487. In other places the winter fishing with decked vessels is practised all winter, is it not?-On the coast of England it is.

12,488. The men there go to the Dogger Bank mostly?-Yes.

12,489. Is there any reason why that sort of fishing cannot be practised in Shetland?-There are many reasons why it cannot be done. There is the heavy sea, and the deep water, and the nature of the fishing grounds.

12,490. Would long-line fishing be impracticable on the banks of Shetland?-In winter it would. It could not be done in these vessels.

12,495. Is that owing to the nature of the ground, or for what reason?-It is owing to the depth of the water and the strong tides.

12,492. Has it ever been tried to set lines from these decked vessels?-In summer it has been tried, and it has generally failed. It has always been discontinued.

12,493. I believe it is necessary to set lines with rowing vessels?- Yes; the fishermen consider that to be the safest way, after all.

12,494. But they do sail out their lines sometimes, do they not?- Yes; and that saves them the trouble of pulling.

12,495. Is it only recently that that practice has been introduced?- I think so. I have not heard of it until lately; but I believe it is now done in consequence of larger boats being used than were in use at one time.

12,496. What is the amount of the poor-rate in the parish of Sandsting?-It is 2s. 4d. on the landlord, and the same on the tenant.

12,497. Is not that rather above the average?-It is. In Walls it is 1s. 10d. Alexander Wallace is the inspector in Sandsting, and Mr. Umphray is the chairman of the Board.

12,498. Does Wallace live in Sandsting?-Yes; on the Walls road.

12,499. How long has he been inspector?-I could not say. I think six or eight years, or more than that.

12,500. Where does he pay the paupers' allowances?-I think he used to go to the parish church at one time, but latterly, I believe, he has paid them at his own house.

12,501. Who is the inspector in Walls?-James Georgeson.

12,502. Does he also pay the paupers at his own house?-Yes, so far as I know.

12,503. Has there ever been a practice of paying them at Reawick?-There are a few, I think five or six, in that district whom our shopman has been in the habit of paying. Wallace sends their pay to him, as they live five or six miles from his (Wallace's) house.

12,504. Are these paupers always paid in cash?-Yes.

12,505. Are they paid in the shop?-I suppose so. There was some inquiry about that lately. I asked the man about it, and he said he invariably paid them in cash; but we put a stop to it, as the thing was not considered to be regular. It had just been done to save the inspector trouble, or to save the people from going so far for their money.

12,506. Have you any knowledge as to how men are employed here for the Greenland fishery?-I am not engaged in that business myself, but I know pretty well how the thing goes on.

12,507. Are there any men from your district employed in that fishery?-There are a few who go to it from some little distance from where I live.

12,508. Do the men employed in that fishing require a larger and more expensive outfit than those who are employed in other fishings or in other seafaring pursuits?-They require warmer clothing. I think that is the only difference.

12,509. Do you suppose that the first month's wages which a lad going to that fishing gets is sufficient to provide him with the necessary outfit?-Certainly not, and I know that in consequence of that very few lads are now going to Greenland. They cannot be fitted out now as they used to be before the new Board of Trade regulations were issued.

12,510. Have you that knowledge from the statements of the lads in your neighbourhood?-Yes, I know it from the men and the lads who go to the fishing. It is coming to be mostly men who are taken for these voyages.

12,511. Is that because the men have already got outfits?-Yes. They could not take lads who are insufficiently clothed; while the men are better clothed, and are more able to stand the severity of the climate. That fishing used to be a nursery for our young men, bringing them up to be able to take their position in the merchant service; but now it is not, and cannot be.

12,512. Do you think the result of the Board of Trade regulations has been to prevent agents in Lerwick from giving the young men credit for their outfits?-I think that must have been the result; and it has prevented so many young men from being employed as there used to be.

12,513. Have you known of any young men going to Greenland with insufficient outfits in consequence of that difficulty in getting credit?-I cannot say that I have known of any particular case; but I should suppose it was very likely to have happened.

12,514. Do you know that, in point of fact, young men engaging to go to Greenland cannot get any reasonable amount of credit from an agent in Lerwick?-Yes, I know that to be the fact; and I also know it to be the fact that there are very few young men now going there.

12,515. Can you tell me of any young man who has said to you that he would have gone to Greenland if he could have got an outfit?-No, I cannot.

12,516. Has that ever been said to you by any young man in Shetland?-I don't know that I ever put the question to any one.

12,517. Has anybody made such a statement to you without you having put the question?-No. I have asked some of the men how it was that there were so [Page 310] very few green hands now going to Greenland, and they said the young men and lads could not be fitted out now as they were before,-that they could only get one month's advance, and that if their wages were only 16s. or 20s. a month, that would only buy them a pair of boots, and they had nothing for clothing.

12,518. In what way did that question suggest itself to your mind?-I think it was from noticing the fact of so many young lads pressing in to go to Faroe. We found more lads wishing employment at Faroe than we could find room for, and on making inquiry I found that that was the reason.

12,519. Why is it that the agents do not give the same credit as they gave before?-I think it must be in consequence of the Board of Trade regulations.

12,520. But these regulations do not interfere directly with the giving of credit; they only provide that the payment of wages shall take place in presence of the superintendent at the Custom House and shall be in cash?-I am aware of that.

12,521. The agent has, with an honest man, the same security for payment of his account that he had before, only the wages cannot be retained by him at settlement?-It must be from the fact that the wages cannot be retained, that the credit has been limited.

12,522. Do you think it would be an expedient thing that these young men should be allowed to incur an account for their outfit, and that the agent furnishing that outfit should be in a position to retain the wages due at the end of the voyage?-I would not give an opinion upon that point. Perhaps it is better as it is.

12,523. Do you wish to make any remarks upon the Report by Mr. Hamilton to the Board of Trade, which was printed in the appendix to the previous report of the Commissioners?-I think that report is manifestly incorrect in what Mr. Hamilton says in regard to the Shetland system generally. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' I don't know where Mr. Hamilton could have got that information from.

12,524. Your own firm is an exception as regards the women, because you have no transactions with them?-It is surely not an exception. I think it must be the rule. I don't believe that such a system exists generally, as that of keeping separate accounts for a husband and wife.

12,525. But the younger members of the family may have separate accounts, and a few of them have separate accounts even in your business?-They have, if they are employed by us. A man may have five or six sons, every one fishing and getting his own share and having his own account.

12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton's report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions which he had formed when he was a boy.

12,527. Was the state of things different in Shetland when he was a boy from what it is now?-Yes, it was a good deal different; I think we are improving. I think there are more of the fishermen now who are free to deal as they choose. I think they have a much greater outfit in every way for fishing, and much better returns; and the fishermen, as a class, are living better and wearing better than they did in those days.

12,528. Is there anything else in the report that you wish to correct?-I consider that the report is altogether wrong.

12,529. I should like specific statements about that, because gentlemen have come to contradict the report before and have gone through it sentence by sentence?-I consider that Mr. Hamilton was going out of his way altogether in making that report.

12,530. Still it might be correct, for all that?-It might be; but it appears to have some weight as coming from the Board of Trade, whereas Mr. Hamilton could have no opportunity of knowing these things from personal knowledge or of judging for himself.

12,531. The point on which he had been directed to inquire was as to the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling vessels?-Yes; and if he had confined himself to that, he would have been doing what was quite right; but all these general remarks about the Shetland System are very wide of the mark, and must have been got from hearsay, because many of them are incorrect. He says, for instance, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he will probably never get any employment again.' I look upon that as an ill-natured, unfounded remark.

12,532. Was there any foundation for that in time past?-I don't believe there was any foundation for such a statement at any time.

12,533. Have you any personal knowledge that enables you to contradict that statement, or have you any knowledge of the matter different from the hearsay knowledge which you attribute to Mr. Hamilton?-I am much better able to judge of it, because I have been mixed up with these men every day for the last thirty years, and if such a thing had taken place I would have heard of it.

12,534. Have you ever made any inquiry among them as to whether that statement was correct?-I have made the most minute inquiries as to how they were treated, and they volunteered statements about how they got on, and why they went to one agent rather than to another.

12,535. What sort of reasons did they give for that?-Of course they had their own reasons for preferring one agent to another. For instance one man thought he got his supplies cheaper from a particular agent, and he went to him.

12,536. Did the reasons they gave for preferring one agent to another, all assume that the man got his supplies from the agent who engaged him?-I have been speaking now of what took place in the trade formerly. For some years back I have not heard anything about supplies at all. They say they get their month's advance now in money.

12,537. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the men do get their supplies from the agent still?-I believe they get them to a very small extent.

12,538. You mean to a small extent, compared with what was the case in former times?-I believe so.

12,539. Is that belief rounded upon the statements of the men themselves, or is it simply from hearsay?-I have been told so by the men.

12,540. Have they told you that they get smaller outfits now than they did formerly, or smaller supplies from their agents?-The class of men who go now to that fishing are not the same as they used to be; they do not require the supplies which the green hands used to get.

12,541. You mean that they do not require so large outfits?-Yes.

12,542. But if they are men with families they probably require much larger supplies for their families during their absence. I suppose they get these supplies from the agents?-I know that in some cases they do; but I know that my firm supplies many of the families of men who go to Greenland, and they pay us in money when they come back and have got their settlement.

12,543. Has your firm a larger business in the way of supplying the families of fishermen who go to Greenland than it formerly had before these regulations of the Board of Trade were introduced?- I think so. I think that formerly the men confined themselves more to the agents for their supplies.

12,544. Are you aware whether at any time the men were under any obligation to ship with one agent more than with another for the Greenland voyage: have you [Page 311] heard anything to that effect from the men?-No. I never heard them speak about being compelled in any way with regard to the Greenland trade.

12,545. I do not speak of compulsion; but have you heard of them being expected or obliged in any way, or of influence being used?-I never heard of them being influenced in any way. I don't think that was ever the practice with regard to the Greenland trade.

12,546. Is there any other passage in the report to which you wish to refer?-Mr. Hamilton says, 'This is merely one phase of the truck system in Shetland, on which are also based arrangements with the crews of coasting and home trade vessels, of the few foreign going vessels, of the Faroe and Iceland fishing vessels, and of the large fleet of fishing boats. Some of the seamen and fishermen feel, and bitterly complain of, the bondage of the system; but, as a rule, the character and habits of the natives have become so assimilated to it, that they are either unconscious of its existence, or are reconciled to its working, that they would probably themselves be averse to any change; for although they may have no option but to work for one master at such remuneration in goods as he may see fit to give, yet they feel that in bad seasons he will not let them starve.' That is a fearfully overdrawn picture.

12,547. I suppose your firm has often had occasion to make large advances in a bad season in order to carry your fishermen through?-Yes.

12,548. And these advances have been repaid by the men from the produce of the following seasons?-Yes; but I deny that there are such hardships as are spoken of here. We have often had to advance a fisherman for perhaps two years' rent, and he had to remain in debt. His fishing was not sufficient to meet his requirements.

12,549. In that case the man would usually continue to fish for you?-Yes. He usually continues until he has wrought off his debt.

12,550. Have you known men in that position who attempted to dispose of their fish to other employers?-I cannot say that I have.

12,551. Have they always continued with you until their debt was wiped off?-They continued from year year at any rate.

12,552. But they did not leave you in these circumstances?-No; as a class, they are much too honest for that.

12,553. Have you ever had an occasion, when a man came to you from another employer, to become responsible to that employer for a debt due by the fisherman to him?-No, I don't think we ever undertook anything of that kind.

12,554. Have you been in the converse position of obtaining payment of a debt due to you from a fisherman who changed his employment?-I don't recollect any case of the kind.

12,555. Does any arrangement exist between your firm and any other by which you undertake the debts of that firm, and they undertake yours in such cases?-No; we have never taken fishermen into our employment under such circumstances. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'The employer has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour, leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' That is a state of things which I know nothing about, and I don't believe it exists.

12,556. If a merchant has full power to fix the price of the fish, and if he also fixes the price at which he sells his goods, and the fisherman has no other place where he can get credit for the supplies which are necessary for his existence, is it not conceivable that that state of matters might be abused?-It is conceivable, and there may be a few cases of that kind; but to speak of that as being the rule, is not correct.

12,557. Have you ever heard complaints from the men engaged in the Greenland fishery that they could not get their wages settled for at an earlier period?-I never heard of any difficulty in that way.

12,558. Have you heard them complain that the agent had contrived to keep them in his debt?-I never heard of such a thing. Often when they had money to pay to us, they have said they had not been in for their wages, and that they were going; but they never said there was any difficulty in getting it, if they only went to Lerwick for it.

12,559. Is all the rest of Mr. Hamilton's report correct except those passages you have referred to?-Certainly not. I do not agree with it at all. There is shade of truth about some things stated in it, but it is overstated.

12,560. Do you differ from this statement in it: 'For this purpose they employ agents in Lerwick who get, as I am informed, little direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men?'-That used to be the case.

12,561. That means, of course, that the agents' chief profit arose from their sales of goods to the men; and that used to be the case formerly?-Yes.

12,562. When did it cease to be the case?-I believe that since the Board of Trade regulations were enforced there has been a change.

12,563. Have you heard of any gentlemen giving up the agency in the Greenland trade in consequence of their failure of profit from that source?-I think Messrs. Hay & Co. have given it up; I have not heard of any others.

12,564. Have you any doubt at all that the principal part of these agents' profits was derived from sales of that kind, at least previous to 1868?-I should think that that is quite correct, if you speak of several years ago.

12,565. The price for the fish caught in the summer fishing is fixed according to the current price for dry fish at the end of the season. How is that current price ascertained?-We know how much green fish make one cwt. of dry. It varies according to the size of the fish, and their original quality. The average is about 21/4 cwt. of green fish to one cwt. of dry.

12,566. Is that the average which is taken in calculating the price every year, or is there sometimes a different average taken?-That is taken generally. It varies a little, according to the fish being very thin or fat at the time they are caught; but 21/4 cwt. is a very fair estimate taking one time with another. We know how many tons of wet fish we have at the station, and we know how many tons of dry fish we get from that place. I have seen the proportion as high as 21/2 cwt.

12,567. The produce of dry fish at one station might differ from the same quantity of wet at another?-Yes, it will never be the same.

12,568. Then, in calculating the amount in order to settle with the men, do you take it overhead at all your stations?-We take our chance of it varying.

12,569. You do not settle with the men at one station according to the actual quantity of dry fish produced from the green fish delivered there?-No. We have one price for all the season.

12,570. How do you ascertain the current price of dry fish in order to settle with the men? Is it from your own sales, or do you communicate with other merchants?-We are not very extensively engaged in buying the fish green from the men.

12,571. Do you not buy sixty or eighty tons annually?-Yes; but we generally make a calculation for ourselves. We don't always pay the current price.

12,572. Is it not your bargain to pay the current price?-That is the understanding with the men; but we have sometimes paid the current price, and sometimes we have paid more. We don't bind ourselves by what others pay.

12,573. Did you ever pay less than the current price?-No; but we have sometimes paid more.

12,574. The men have no voice at all in settling what the price shall be: it is left entirely to the merchants, is it not?-I think it is left very much to the merchants with regard to the green fish.

12,575. Is the competition for fish sufficient here to bring the price up to the highest figure?-Yes; there is no fear of that.

12,576. Are you prepared to say that any complaints [Page 312] which the fishermen make to the effect that they do not get the fair current price which they ought to get for their green fish, as regulated by the current price at the end of the season, are unfounded?-We very seldom have such complaints.

12,577. But if there were such complaints, do you say they are unfounded?-I think the fishermen, generally are very fairly paid for green fish.

12,578. Are there not two prices for fish exported from Shetland, according as they are sent to one market or to another?-There are many prices. Although a current price is fixed, there may be a considerable difference in what the curer realizes. If a curer chooses to take the chance of consigning to a certain market, he may get more or he may get less than if he chose to sell here at what is the shipping price.

12,579. If a curer sends his fish to the Spanish market, for example, he may get a much higher price than by selling to a purchaser at home?-He may get a higher price.

12,580. Does he generally do so?-He generally does, because it is the best fish that are selected for that market; and if I choose to reserve a certain portion of any cure and take my chance of how the market will be going after Christmas, I may get more or I may get less. I may speculate in that way as I like; but every curer does not get the same price for his fish, although there is a current price fixed.

12,581. How is that current price fixed?-I cannot explain it very well. There is generally a great fight for about a fortnight between the purchasers from the south and the merchants here. The south-country buyers come down here, and sometimes they come to terms at once but sometimes they go away without fixing if they cannot agree upon the terms. About the month of September, however, the price generally comes to a figure at last at which the bulk of the fish go.

12,582. At that time are there communications between the fish-curers here upon the subject?-Yes; they consult together as to the offers they have, and whether they are to hold for a higher price, or take what they can get.

12,583. Is it usual that the bulk of the fish is sold at nearly the same figure?-As a rule, the bulk of the fish go at one price.

12,584. And the current price, according to which the men are paid, is fixed by that?-Yes.

12,585. Do you think it would be possible to introduce in the fishing trade here a system of paying at short intervals for the fish delivered?-I think it would be quite impossible. We would be very thankful if we could do so. We would be quite ready to pay our own men in cash the same as we pay all the Englishmen. We get large quantities of fish from English vessels, for which we pay cash; and we would be quite as ready to pay our own men in cash as them.

12,586. Why is that impossible?-There are many reasons for it. Our men deliver their fish at a great number of little stations all round the islands, and we could not have a person at each of these stations to pay them, without a considerable expense. That is the case with the curers generally.

12,587. You have only two stations besides Reawick?-We have more stations than that for receiving fish.

12,588. Would the factor who receives the fish not be quite competent to pay the men at short intervals?-Sometimes he might be there for that purpose, and sometimes not; but the difficulty would be with the men themselves. They would not be satisfied to have a price fixed then.

12,589. But part of the price might be paid as a bounty, as it were, and the balance might be payable according to the current price?- Such an arrangement might be made; but I don't see any object it could serve because, if our men wish an advance of money during the fishing season at present, they can get it. If they wish money to pay for anything they require while the fishing is going on, we make no difficulty in giving them that advance, because we know they are delivering fish which will cover it.

12,590. Would not the principal difficulty in the way of such a system be the necessity under which the men are of getting advances in goods or cash during the season? Would they be able to hold on till the fortnightly or monthly payment without getting advances?-They only require a very small proportion of their fishing, either in money or in goods, during the season. The great proportion of it has to be reserved for their annual payments of rent and poor-rates, and various other things of that sort. The great difficulty would be with the men: they would not like the system, because they would feel that they would be losers by it.

12,591. How would they be losers?-Because no curer would risk such a high price in the summer season as he is ready to pay the men in the autumn, when he sees what he can afford to pay.

12,592. But when a certain amount of fish is delivered, it is quite plain that something will be due to the fishermen at the end of the season: would it not be possible then to fix a minimum price, below which there could be no reasonable expectation of the fish falling at the end of the season, and the men might be paid according to that minimum price?-That would only increase trouble, without any earthly advantage, so far as I can see.

12,593. The men would have the money in their own hands?-The men have the money in their own hands as it is. I believe that from all respectable curers they get money for any purpose they ask it for.

12,594. But they have to go and ask for it specially?-Certainly.

12,595. And perhaps they have to ask for it as a favour?-Well, it is a favour. The money is not due for the fish. They have delivered the article, but it is in advance.

12,596. You mean the bargain is that the fish are to be delivered as caught, but not to be payable till the end of the season; so that the mistake, if there is one is in making that bargain?-I don't see that there is any mistake in it.

12,597. Do you not think the fisherman would be wiser to make the bargain to get his money paid as he wants it, instead of being obliged, when he does want it in the course of the season, to ask for it as a favour?-Such a system could not work, because in these boats there are certain expenses which must come off the whole crew. They may have hired men along with them, and they could not divide each day's fishing or each week's fishing, without a great deal of trouble and confusion.

12,598. Do you think the present arrangements between the curers and the men are so complicated that it is necessary to have only one settlement for the year?-I think the present system is the best that can be devised. It would be a complicated system if weekly payments were made; but there is no complication as it is at present.

12,599. Do you think the system that has been suggested would require too much accounting?-Yes; and the men could not take the time to do it, without being great losers.

12,600. Do you receive a large portion of your annual cure from the English boats which fish for you?-Yes. I suppose we receive about one-third of our cure from them. All the men who fish for us in these boats are paid wages, and they have a small allowance, called score money, on the fish which each man takes.

12,601. Do you buy their fish green at a fixed price?-Yes, at a price fixed with the master or owner, usually before the vessel comes out.

12,602. That price is a standing price for the whole season?-Yes, we take our chance.

12,603. And the owner also takes his chance?-Yes.

12,604. Do you think the men in these boats prosecute the fishing as vigorously and successfully as those in the Shetland boats, who are paid on a different principle?-They prosecute it with great rigour. Generally they are thoroughbred fishermen. They have all been apprenticed to the fishing when they were boys of 8 or 10 years of age.

12,605. Can you say that the practice which prevails in the Shetland boats produces a greater amount of energy in carrying on the fishing, and results in a [Page 313] larger capture of fish than in the case of these Grimsby boats?-I know that the Shetland boats catch more fish when competing with the others.

12,606. Are they equipped in the same way, or is there any difference in the style of boat or of equipment which would account for that?-They are very much the same class of vessel as to size and equipment.

12,607. Are the English boats in any way superior?-No, there is very little difference. Some of the smacks we have are the very same, having been built by the same builders. I am speaking now of the Faroe fishing, and these English vessels are all of the same size and description.

12,608. Which system do you think the best of the two?-The best for the Shetland fishermen is to have their share. Our men are better paid than the Englishmen.

12,609. Do they take more from their shares than the Englishmen take from their wages, as a rule?-Yes. I know the amount of their earnings.

12,610. I have been requested to ask you this question: In what number of boats, fishing at one station to different curers, would these men be willing to accept the value of a week's fishing, probably amounting to £20, and carry to their homes by sea, or undertake the subdivision of them more frequently than once annually, that at present?-I think I have answered that, or almost that question already. I have already said that I believe the men would refuse to adopt that system.

12,611. Is that in consequence of the trouble it would entail in dividing the fish?-Yes, and the time taken up with it. Besides, they don't require it.

12,612. How do you account for the English boats coming north to compete with the Shetland crews, although they receive less for their fishing than the Shetland fishermen do?-They are fishing all the year round, and they come north to fill up their time when fresh fish do not pay them on their own coasts.

12,613. Fishing is their only employment?-Yes.

12,614. You think it is not likely to become the only employment of Shetland fishermen?-Not generally.

12,615. And you think it is not expedient that it should?-I don't think it is. I think they all require something to do on the land as well.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, examined.

12,616. Are you a fisherman and tenant in Skerries?-I am.

12,617. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Bruce.

12,618. Do you pay your rent to him?-No, to Mr. Adie.

12,619. Is he your tacksman?-Yes.

12,620. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Adie.

12,621. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie, or can you engage to fish with anybody you like?-We are bound to fish for Mr. Adie.

12,622. How do you know that?-Because Mr. Adie told us we were not at liberty to fish for any other man except him.

12,623. When did he tell you that?-I cannot state the date exactly, but it has been since I commenced to fish there, eighteen years ago. That was the time when the agreement was made last.

12,624. What agreement?-That we were to deliver all our produce, fish, and every other thing, to him, and to no one else.

12,625. If you chose to fish for anybody else, what was the penalty to be?-That we were to be removed from our crofts.

12,626. Has any person been removed for fishing to another than Mr. Adie?-None, for there have been no offenders.

12,627. How many people are in these lands?-There are almost 130 of a population, old and young. There are six boats belonging to the islands that fish for Mr. Adie.

12,628. Do a number of people come there in the summer time from other places to fish?-Yes. They fish both to Mr. Adie and to Mr. Robertson. These are the only two who employ men there.

12,629. Has Mr. Robertson a station and a shop there?-Yes; he has a store for supplying his fishermen.

12,630. Is it open all the year round?-No, only during the fishing season.

12,631. Where do you get your supplies?-From Mr. Adie's shop at Skerries. It is open all the year round, and is kept by Robert Umphray.

12,632. Do you pay for your supplies at the time you get them, or do you settle for them at the end of the year?-Sometimes at the end of the year, and sometimes not for fifteen months.

12,633. How does it happen that you are sometimes fifteen months in settling?-We live in an isolated place, and Mr. Adie's people cannot sometimes get conveniently exactly at the twelvemonth's end, but they make arrangements to come when they please.

12,634. Is it sometimes late in the spring before they come to settle?-Sometimes we have not settled until March, but the usual time is at Martinmas.

12,635. Have you any objection to that state of things?-The only objection I have to it is that we do not have our freedom to fish to the person who will pay us best, and we should also like to be able to get our goods from the best market we can, and at the cheapest price we can.,

12,636. Can you not get your goods from any market you please just now?-No.

12,637. Why?-Because we cannot get our pay in hand.

12,638. Can you not get cash from Mr. Adie or from Mr. Umphray when you ask for it?-Yes, if we have it to get.

12,639. If you want supplies during the season, before the settlement comes, do you get them?-Yes, we can get our supplies then, as far as our earnings are likely to cover them.

12,640. Have you ever been restricted?-Yes; they only allow us to go so far as our earnings are likely to pay, and no further.

12,641. Have you ever been refused supplies?-Yes. I cannot give the date of that, but I have been put on an allowance both of meal and other things.

12,642. Did you get a certain amount of goods from the store each week?-Yes, each Saturday night.

12,643. How often have you been put upon that allowance?-That is always done, unless we can clear ourselves in Mr. Adies book.

12,644. When were you last put upon an allowance?-In 1869.

12,645. Was that a year of scarcity?-In our isolated place there is generally scarcity, because our crops are scanty.

12,646. Are they not sufficient to keep your families all the year round?-No.

12,647. Therefore you have every year to buy a certain amount of meal from Mr. Adie?-Yes, we have generally to buy about six months' provisions from him.

12,648. Were you put on an allowance in 1869 because you were in debt?-Yes

12,649. What allowance was made to you then?-Three pecks of meal a week; and there are seven of us in the family.

12,650. Was that less than you required?-Of course it was, but I could get no more.

12,651. How much do you use when you are not upon an allowance?-I could not say exactly, because when I can buy it for myself I take no notice. I think, however, we would require about five pecks a week.

12,652. Did you find the allowance of three pecks to be too small for you?-Of course we did.

12,653. Was the rest of the island put upon an allowance at that time?-All the indebted men were.

12,654. Were there many of them?-Most of the men in Skerries, in the fishing line were in debt at that time.

12,655. At what season of the year was that?-In summer.

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12,656. Were there a number of men at that time in the island who did not live there?-Yes, a great number.

12,657. Were they put on an allowance too?-I could not say as to that. I can only speak of those who live constantly in the island, and more especially myself.

12,658. Do you not think it was quite reasonable, that if a person to whom you were due money was to continue to make you further advances, he should use his own discretion as to the amount of these advances?-Of course, if I got the goods at the market price. I think I ought to have got my meal, or whatever I was requiring, at the market price in Lerwick, adding something for freight.

12,659. Did you not get it at that rate?-No; I found that I could buy meal 7s. per sack cheaper in Lerwick than in Skerries; and from that down to the lowest thing we got, it was generally charged one-third more than it could be got for in Lerwick or any place near to it. I have paid for a sack of meal at Mr. Adie's station at Skerries, when I could have got it from any merchant in Lerwick at 50s. or 51s.

12,660. That was a difference of 10s.: when did you do that?-I could not say, but I have done it. I think it was about four years back.

12,661. Was that before 1869, when you were put on an allowance?-Yes.

12,662. Were you in debt at that time?-Yes.

12,663. Did you get an advance of a sack of meal at a time, and were charged 61s. for it?-Yes.

12,664. Where could you have got it in Lerwick for 50s. or 51s.?- From Mr. John Robertson, senior. I got it from him at that, and paid the cash down.

12,665. Did you get another sack from Mr. Adie at the same time?-Yes, at the same date.

12,666. Did you get both of these supplies within month of each other?-Within a month or two.

12,667. Have you any pass-book or any paper to show that?-No.

12,668. Did you get a receipt from Mr. Robertson for the money?-No.

12,669. At what season of the year was that?-In January.

12,670. And you think that was about four years ago?-Yes.

12,671. That would probably be about January 1868?-I think so, but I cannot exactly say.

12,672. Did you buy the meal from Mr. Robertson in your own name?-One part in my own name, and the other part in the name of my father, John Hutchison.

12,673. Who gave the order to Mr. Robertson?-I did.

12,674. Did you tell him that one half of the meal was for yourself and one half for your father?-Yes.

12,675. Do you know whether the purchase was entered in his books?-I cannot say, for I paid the cash down.

12,676. Do you know anything about the quality of that meal?-It was just about the same quality as we could get from Mr. Adie.

12,677. Was it before or after you got the meal from Mr. Robertson, that you bought the sack at 61s. from Mr. Umphray?- It was after, about two months after at the furthest.

12,678. Did you say anything to him about the price when you got it?-I did; and Mr. Umphray told me he must sell it at the invoice price which his master sent to him.

12,679. Did you take the meal at that price?-I was obliged to do so, when I could not make a better of it.

12,680. Could you not have gone and got some more from Mr. Robertson?-I could; but I had no expectation of having anything at the end of the time with which to pay him.

12,681. Did you think Mr. Robertson would not have given it to you on credit?-I don't think it, for I could not have asked it.

12,682. Do you think Mr. Robertson would have given you the meal as cheap if you had been buying it on credit?-He would have given it to me cheaper on credit than Mr. Adie did.

12,683. Is there any other time that you remember, when you bought meal or any other goods at Adie's shop, and when you could have got them cheaper elsewhere?-That has happened every time.

12,684. But did you ever try at what price you could get your goods at another place in the same way as you did at that time?- I have done so at times. We can get as many sillock hooks at Messrs. Hay's shop, at Simbister in Whalsay, for 1d. as we can get beside us for 11/2d.

12,685. Do you generally buy your sillock hooks at Whalsay?- No; we generally go for them to the store where we are supplied. I could also get washing soda in Lerwick for 1d., and we pay 11/2d. for it at Skerries. I bought 14 lbs. of it in Lerwick yesterday at 1d. a lb. The last I bought at Skerries was about two months ago, and it was marked down to me at 11/2d. If I were buying as much as 14 lbs. at a time in Skerries, I would get no discount upon it; I would still be charged 11/2d. per lb.

12,686. Do many of the people in Skerries go for their supplies to other places?-No; they all go to Adie's store for them.

12,687. Why do they do that when the prices are so high as you say?-Because they are bound so far to do it, in this way: that they fish for him, and all their earnings go to him, and they must go to the store for whatever supplies they require.

12,688. Do you mean that they are obliged to get their supplies on credit, and that they have credit nowhere else?-They cannot have credit anywhere else until they see whether they have any money to get, and then they can come to Lerwick or any other place with their money; but they cannot do that at any other time.

12,689. Are you at liberty to sell the produce of your farm to any person you please?-No. We are under the restriction to take it all to Mr. Adie's store.

12,690. Who told you that?-Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor.

12,691. Is there anybody else you could sell it to?-No; except in the summer time, when Mr. Robertson's man is there.

12,692. Have any of you offered to sell to him?-Yes.

12,693. Have you been prevented from doing so?-Yes; we have been prevented in this way, that we were obliged to go to Mr. Adie with all that we had, or else we would have been put out of our crofts.

12,694. Did anybody ever interfere with you selling to Mr. Robertson?-If it had been known that it had been done, they would have interfered; but no man, so far as I know, ever put the produce of his farm or of his fishing past Mr. Adie.

12,695. Do you know of any person being fined for selling to Mr. Robertson's man?-No; but I know that my father was fined 2s. 6d. for selling a dozen of eggs to a man at the lighthouse station. That was in 1858.

12,696. Was that by Mr. Umphray?-Yes.

12,697. Was he Mr. Adie's factor at that time?-Yes.

12,698. Do you know of anybody having been fined in the same way since?-No; except men going to Greenland, or going any other way where they think they can be better. They are fined in this way, that every man, young and old, on the island, is obliged to fish for Mr. Adie.

12,699. But if a man goes to Greenland he is not on the island?- No; and it is for that reason he is fined.

12,700. But if he is not on the island, how can he be fined?-He comes back in the winter.

12,701. Who has been fined in that way?-I was fined, for one, in 1855.

12,702. Have you been at the Greenland fishing since that?-No.

12,703. Have you been away from the island since?-No.

12,704. Why have you not gone since?-Because I became a tenant of Mr. Adie then, and I had to stick by that and fish for him.

12,705. Were you not a tenant of his at the time when you were fined?-No.

[Page 315]

12,706. Then why did you pay the fine?-I must either pay the fine, or my father would have been warned away for me.

12,707. Were you told that your father would be put away if you did not pay the fine?-Yes.

12,708. How much did you pay?-£2.

12,709. To whom did you pay it?-To Mr. Adie himself.

12,710. Did you get a receipt for it?-No.

12,711. Was it put down to your account?-Yes.

12,712. Was it ever repaid to you?-It was never repaid to me, but these fines were repaid to some others. It was repaid to Andrew Williamson, for one. There were six men belonging to Skerries who went to Greenland in 1855, and they were all fined £2 each.

12,713. That is a very old story. Did it ever happen again?-No.

12,714. Have men gone to Greenland from Skerries since then?- Yes.

12,715. And they have not been fined?-No.

12,716. How did they escape?-I cannot say.

12,717. They just had their liberty, and nothing was said to them?-Nothing.

12,718. Do you think the fines imposed on these six men served as a warning?-I don't think so.

12,719. That did not prevent other men from going to Greenland?-No, not for a few years back.

12,720. But did it do so at the time?-No; some men went to Greenland immediately after that, and were not fined. I think the fines were imposed on these six men in order to try to stop them from going there; but it did not have that effect, and it was not attempted again.

12,721. Why did you not get back your fine, when it was repaid to Williamson and the other men?-I never asked it back.

12,722. Have you or anybody else been fined for that, or for selling your goods to other people, since 1855?-No.

12,723. Except on that one occasion in 1858, when your father was fined for selling eggs?-Yes.

12,724. Can you sell your eggs to the lighthouse keepers now, or to any person you please?-Yes.

12,725. You are not bound now to sell them to Mr. Umphray?- Not so far as I know.

12,726. Have you sold eggs to Mr. Robertson's man within the last year or two?-Yes.

12,727. How do you sell your beasts?-To Mr. Adie.

12,728. Can you not sell them to any person you like?-Yes; but the cash must be returned to him.

12,729. You mean the cash must be handed to because you must pay your debts?-Yes.

12,730. Is there anything else you wish to say about Skerries?- Nothing, except that I may state, on behalf of all the men who are in the town now from Skerries, that they would like their freedom to fish for any man who would pay them best, and be allowed to get whatever they require from the cheapest market.

12,731. Supposing you had your freedom, is there one to whom you could sell your fish for a better price than Mr. Adie allows?- There are no others at the present time, so far as I know; but opposition might arise if there were more buyers than one, and if we had our freedom.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, PETER HENDERSON, examined.

12,732. Are you a fisherman and farmer in Skerries?-I am.

12,733. How long have you been there?-This is the second year since I came there, but I was born in Skerries. I have been living in the North Isles for about twelve years.

12,734. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

12,735. How do you know that?-I just know it in the same way that the rest of the tenants know it. He is our tacksmaster, and of course we have to fish for him.

12,736. When you took your bit of land two years ago from him, were you told that you must fish for him?-Yes. Mr. Umphray told me so.

12,737. Did Mr. Umphray let the land and agree with you about it?-Yes.

12,738. He told you at the time that you must fish for Mr. Adie, and you entered into that agreement, quite understanding what it was?-Yes.

12,739. Do you take your supplies from Mr. Adie's shop, and settle up every year at settling time?-Yes. I have always had a balance to get then.

12,740. Did you get money besides that in the course of the season if you wanted it?-Yes, when I asked for it.

12,741. Did you ask for much?-No; perhaps for £1 or so, when I required it.

12,742. Were you at liberty to buy your supplies at any other place you liked?-Yes, if I had money to give for them.

12,743. Could you have got money?-I did not ask it for that.

12,744. If you had asked for money with which to go and buy your meal and tea in Lerwick, would you have got it from Mr. Umphray?-I don't know that. If he had known it was my intention to go with it to other parties, I don't think he would have given it to me, because he would have wanted for himself any profit there was upon it.

12,745. Have you any reason for supposing so?-I have only my own reasons for supposing it, and I would think so.

12,746. Has he ever told you that he expects you to buy your goods at his shop?-No. He has never said anything about that.

12,747. Has he ever had any occasion to tell you that?-No.

12,748. Do you think he would tell you that if you went and got your goods in Lerwick or in Whalsay?-I don't know.

12,749. Have you ever been fined for selling your produce to anybody else or for fishing for another than Mr. Adie?-No.

12,750. Do you want to have liberty to fish for another?-Of course we should like to fish for any one who would pay us most.

12,751. But you came voluntarily to Skerries two years ago, knowing that you could fish only for Mr. Adie there

12,752. Why do you object to that now?-I don't object to it, only I should like if I could get more for my produce.

12,753. Do you think you could get more for it from any one else?-I don't think I could get more for it at the present time, because Mr. Adie is paying as high price as any other man.

12,754. Why did you go to Skerries?-Circumstances led me to go. I could not keep the land I was on, because the rent was too high. That was in Fetlar.

12,755. Do you get your land cheaper in Skerries?-I have only half a house and land in Skerries, but I could not get that chance in Fetlar. I had a heavy tack of land there, and I was not able to pay for it.

12,756. Do you know anything about the price and quality of provisions in Skerries?-They are dearer than in Lerwick. I bought a boll of meal in Lerwick yesterday from R. & C. Robertson's, to take home with me, and paid 19s. 6d. for it, while the price in Skerries just now is 23s. I have not bought so much there lately, but I know by the peck price that that is the price of it. I bought a peck lately, and it was marked down to me at 1s. 4d.

12,757. Would it not have been less if you had bought a boll?-It might have been a little less, but not much.

12,758. To whom do you sell your cattle?-To Mr. Adie.

12,759. Do all the people in Skerries sell their cattle to him?- They generally go to the roup at Voe, and have a chance of selling them there.

[Page 316]

12,760. Do they take their cattle or ponies all the way to Voe?- There are no ponies in Skerries.

12,761. Are you paid in money for your cattle at the time of the roup?-Yes, if we want it. Of course Mr. Adie does not like to pay us the whole of it in money if we are in his debt, but if a man is clear he gets whatever he wants.

12,762. If a man is clear does he always get his money down, or is it put into his account?-If he wants to leave it in Mr. Adie's hands he will get interest for his money, but if he wants the money itself it will be paid down to him.

12,763. What are the usual earnings in the summer fishing?-They vary according as we are successful or not. Last, summer I think I had £18, 6s. for my fish from April to Lammas.

12,764. Did you catch some fish in the winter and early spring, before that?-Very little. I got perhaps 30s. for them.

12,765. Is the fishing of the Skerries men in summer as large as that of the men who come from the mainland?-Yes. Most of the Skerries boats are quite as well fished as the boats that come from the mainland.

12,766. Had you as much money to get as most of the mainland men?-I believe I had. I don't think there were any who were much above me.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, recalled.

12,767. How much did you get for your summer fishing last year?-£17, 19s.

12,768. Was that as much as most of the mainland men got, so far as you know?-Yes. I don't know what money they actually got; but I know the number of cwts. they took, and I know that none of them had much more than me. The highest of the mainland boats had 252 cwts., while our boat, which was manned entirely by Skerries men, had 246 cwts. 1 qr. 18 lbs. The mainland boat I have mentioned was one of Mr. John Robertson's. Ours was the highest fished boat belonging to Mr. Adie at Skerries. The six boats belonging to Skerries had all about the same take.

12,769. Do you think the Skerries boats generally had a smaller number of cwts. than the mainland boats?-In general they had more.

12,770. Was that because they lost less time in coming and going to the fishing?-Yes. The Skerries men had the advantage of Friday afternoon and Saturday above the Lunnasting men, who went home at the end of every week on the Friday afternoon, and did not return until Monday about twelve o'clock.

12,771. You had thus a longer time at the fishing than the Lunnasting men. How do you account for it that you had not one-third more fish than they?-I just account for it by chance or fortune.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, DAVID ANDERSON, examined.

12,772. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am. I have been there since I was a child.

12,773. Do you hold a bit of land?-Yes.

12,774. Do you consider yourself bound to fish for Mr. Adie?- Yes, the same as any other.

12,775. Were you told so?-I was not; but my father was when he signed his agreement for the land, about twenty years ago. I have the half of the farm with him.

12,776. Have you ever been fined or found fault with for fishing to another, or for selling the produce of your farm to any one else than Mr. Adie?-Never.

12,777. I suppose there has been no occasion to do so?-No.

12,778. Have you ever sold fish, or eggs, or butter, or cattle to any one except Mr. Adie?-No.

12,779. Have you always got as good a price from him as you could have got anywhere else?-I usually got the currency.

12,780. Do you think you would have been better off if you had had liberty to deal with another?-I don't know that I would.

12,781. Have you any wish for a change?-No.

12,782. Are you content as you are?-Yes.

12,783. Do you think the evidence of the two previous witnesses was correct with regard to the price and quality of the goods at Skerries?-Quite correct.

12,784. Are the goods dearer at Skerries than they are elsewhere?-Yes.

12,785. But you have no wish for a change, and are quite content to go on paying the higher prices?-I am merely content to fish for Mr. Adie as well as for another; but I think the prices which he charges for his goods in the shop are far too dear.

12,786. But you are not bound to take all your goods from his shop?-No, not if I had the money.

12,787. Do you not get the money at settling time?-Yes, at settling time I do; but hardly as much as will keep me going for a twelvemonth, and I must go to him for some supplies.

12,788. Do you not get enough money at settling time to carry you on for two or three months?-Yes.

12,789. After that could you not get credit from any other shop where you could get your goods cheaper?-I have no doubt I could if I knew that I could pay my account at the twelvemonth's end.

12,790. But if you had credit at another shop where you could get your supplies cheaper, and if you got no credit from him, you could get all your money from him at settlement, instead of having part of it in supplies?-I could, but we have our rent to pay to him annually. In the meantime we might have a good fishing or a bad fishing, as Providence sends it. If we had a good fishing, we might have enough money to pay the men from whom we had got credit; but if not, we would not have plenty of money and then how could we pay our accounts?

12,791. Does not Mr. Adie take the same chance with you?-Yes.

12,792. You might have no money to pay him for the credit he has given you?-That is quite true.

12,793. Therefore he has to wait for payment just as another merchant would have to wait for payment, if you get your goods on credit from him?-Yes.

12,794. Then why do you think that another merchant would not give you credit?-There is no doubt we would get plenty of credit.

12,795. Have you ever compared the prices of goods at Skerries with what you could get them for at any other place?-Yes; and everything is dearer there than it is in Lerwick. For instance, cotton is always from 2d. to 21/2d. a yard dearer at Skerries than at Lerwick. I have bought cotton of the same quality at both places for oiling, and I found there was that difference in the price. Then last year I bought a sack of meal in Lerwick for 42s., and we were paying 46s. in Skerries for it at that time. It was in February last year that I bought it in Lerwick, from Mr. Charles Robertson, and I bought some in Skerries in April or May. I think the freight to Skerries is 8d. a sack. We generally get it conveyed by Mr. John Robertson's packet when we buy it in Lerwick, and I think his charge for it is 8d.

12,796. Were these two purchases of meal of the same quality?- Just about the same.

Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ALEXANDER HUMPHRAY, examined.

12,797. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am.

12,798. You are not a tenant yourself?-No. My father is a tenant, and I live with him.

[Page 317]

12,799. Do you fish to Mr. Adie?-Yes.

12,800. Are you not at liberty to fish for any other person?-I don't know. I am in my father's boat, and therefore I cannot get clear. I would like to oblige Mr. Adie as far as possible by going in his boat; but if we have fish to sell, and if there is another merchant in Skerries who would buy the fish, and perhaps give us 3d. or 6d. per cwt. more for them, we cannot sell them to him. We must give them all to Mr. Adie.

12,801. How do you know that?-Because we have seen it.

12,802. When did you see it?-About four years ago. There was another merchant there, who was giving more for the fish, but I could not leave the boat and go to him when the other men in the boat were bound to give their fish to Mr. Adie.

12,803. Did you think you were free at that time?-I did not know. I thought Mr. Adie could pay as much as any other man for fish, but he would not do it; and I could not take my fish out of the boat and sell them to another man when all the other men were selling their fish to Mr. Adie. It would not have looked right.

12,804. Who was the other merchant?-Mr. John Hughson, Yell. He was offering 3d. per cwt. more, and yet we could not give him our fish.

12,805. Did you try to take your fish away to him?-I did not try. I would have liked to have done it, but the fish had been weighed before I could get my share, and it would not have looked well to have taken them away.

12,806. Did you speak about that at the time?-Yes, I spoke about it to Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor, and he said we must give our fish to him, as we were bound to do so.

12,807. Have you ever been at Faroe or Greenland?-I have been fishing to Mr. Adie at Skerries all along.

12,808. Were you employed as a beach boy there at one time?- Yes, for two years. That was five years ago. The regular fee then was £3 for three-fourths of the year, and £4 for a splitter.

12,809. When you were engaged as a beach boy, did you get most of your payment in supplies?-Yes.

12,810. You were settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; and I was buying their goods at the same time.

12,811. How much of your fee did you get at the end of the year?-I got £1 the first year. My father did as much for me as he could, so that I did not require to buy meal from him. I got about £1 at the end of the second year also.

12,812. When you were a beach boy, could you not get your cash in hand if you asked for it in advance in the course of the year?-I know we might have got 1s. or 2s. to serve a particular purpose, but no more.

12,813. Were you expected to take it out in supplies?-Yes.

12,814. If you had asked it by the week, would you have got it?- No; they said they would not give it until the end of the season, and it was fixed then according to the amount of fish that had been taken.

12,815. Was not your beach fee a uniform sum, whatever kind of fishing there was?-No; there was a sum fixed at the beginning of the year, and then at the end of the season they gave us what they liked.

12,816. Is that the practice still?-Yes.

12,817. If it is a good fishing, the beach fee is fixed higher?-Yes.

12,818. And you think it is always higher in proportion to the success of the fishing?-Yes; and according to the number of years you have been at the work.

12,819. How many beach boys and men are employed at Mr. Adie's station in Skerries?-There are usually about six boys and two splitters. In some years there are eight, and I have seen as few as three and four. They settle with us at Skerries, in Mr. Adie's house there, not in the shop. They brought the books over from Voe.

12,820. When you were settled with at the end of the year, were you asked if you wanted anything?-No.

12,821. You were paid the money?-Yes, whatever I had to get. If I was due £1 or £10, there was 1s. per pound of interest charged against me, and that was done with every one in Skerries. I knew a man who was due £14 last year, and he had to pay 14s., but he cleared himself this year. If a man's debt is above £40, that is £2 a year he has to pay, and they never can get out of debt.

12,822. Are there many men who are due above £40, and who never get out of debt?-As far as I can learn, there is one.

12,823. How do you know that he never will get out of debt?- Unless better times come, I don't know how he can. He will not be able to do it with the present fishings.

12,824. Has he been long in debt in that way?-I believe he has been for a good while. Sometimes the debt may be £1 more or £1 less but the interest is always charged.

12,825. Have you sometimes had a balance to get at the end of the year?-Yes; sometimes I may have had £5 or £6 to get, and sometimes nothing.

12,826. When you have a balance of that kind to get, does Mr. Umphray never ask you if you want any goods?-He never says anything. We just please ourselves. I would never take anything from the shop at Skerries if I could get it in Lerwick, because everything is overpriced there. For instance, there is soap and soda. You cannot get a bit of soap there under 6d. a lb., and soda is 11/2d., while here it is 1d. Everything I could mention is dearer there than here. Sugar is 5d. and 6d. there, and I know that in Lerwick we can get as good for 5d. as we get there for 6d. If we were paid money every time we come on shore with our fish, or every time we want it, we would be able to get our things very much cheaper from other places.

12,827. Are you sure the sugar which you pay 6d. for in Skerries is not better than you would get for 5d. here?-I don't think it is. We pay 7d. for hard sugar there, and we can get the same kind for 6d. here.

12,828. Would you not have a long way to go from Skerries in order to get your goods cheaper, even although you had your money in your hands?-There is a packet going to Whalsay every week, and goods are almost as cheap there as in Lerwick. They are far cheaper than in Skerries, and it is the same freight to Whalsay.

12,829. I suppose it is not very easy to get goods carried to Skerries?-Unless from Whalsay it is not very easy. We can get them quarterly; but we could get them every week by the packet to Whalsay, by sending a letter to Lerwick, and then we could get them brought to Skerries when we had a chance.

12,830. Does Mr. Robertson's packet only go in the summer season?-Yes; but the Commissioners' mail packet comes every week to Whalsay, and any of us could go over there and bring whatever small thing we wanted.

.

[Page 318]

BODDAM, DUNROSSNESS, FRIDAY, JANUARY 26, 1872

ROBERT HENDERSON, examined.

12,831. You are the son of Mr. Gavin Henderson, who is a merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness?-I am.

12,832. You have charge of his business now?-Yes, mostly.

12,833. Are you in partnership with him?-No.

12,834. You are his manager?-Yes.

12,835. Of what does your stock consist?-It is most impossible to say. It consists of drapery goods, groceries, ironmongery, coal, and I don't know what more.

12,836. Do you buy some hosiery?-A little; and we buy eggs as well.

12,837. I believe you have about the largest business in the neighbourhood?-We do a reasonable business.

12,838. You are not engaged in the fishing in any way?-We buy fish, but we have no boats of our own.

12,839. From whom do you buy fish?-From any parties who present them to us. We buy scarcely any in summer. It is mostly in winter that we get them, because in the summer months the boats are all engaged to certain fish-merchants, and the men sell their fish to them or to the proprietors.

12,840. Is it generally the proprietors who have the fishing in their own hands?-Some of them have, and some have not. Mr. Bruce of Simbister does not have the fishing in his hands; the others have.

12,841. To whom do Mr. Bruce of Simbister's tenants generally fish?-His tenants on the west side, those round us, fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun., Lerwick, and for Mr. Robert Mullay, Lerwick.

12,842. How many boats has Mr. Mullay?-I don't know exactly; perhaps seven or eight. He has a station at Ireland, and Mr. Robertson, jun. has one at Spiggie. They have no shops there. They have only the stations hired from Mr. Bruce. Those of Mr. Bruce's tenants who fish from Spiggie are bound to fish for Mr. Robertson during the summer months, and those who fish from Ireland at that time are bound to fish for Mr. Mullay.

12,843. Do you understand that these tenants are bound to fish for these merchants?-Yes.

12,844. Is that the understanding in the district?-Yes; but during the summer months only.

12,845. Do you know that from the men themselves?-Yes.

12,846. Have they often told you that they are bound to fish for these tacksmen?-They have often told me that; but they are not tacksmen, they only have the stations.

12,847. Do these men deal a great deal at your shop?-Yes.

12,848. Have they ever told you in what way they are bound, or how they know they are bound?-Robert Robertson, of Noss, once wished to have liberty to dry his fish for himself, and to fish from Spiggie, and he would force a beach for himself quite apart from Mr. Robertson's beach, but he was refused liberty.

12,849. When was that?-I could not say; it was about four or five years ago, I think.

12,850. Do you know any one else who was interfered with in the same way?-I know a man from Ireland who was obliged to beach and draw his boat in a ghive some distance from Ireland, in order to sell his fish to Charles Nicholson, Scalloway. His name was Gavin Goudie.

12,851. Are these the only curers for whom the tenants of Mr. Bruce of Simbister fish?-No. If they do not fish from Spiggie or from Ireland, they are at liberty to fish for whom they like. They can dry their fish or sell them wet, just as they please. A good many of them fish from about Scatness and West Voe, and sell their fish to Hay & Co. A few of them fish from Voe, and sell their fish to Mr. Grierson of Quendale.

12,852. But they are at liberty to sell to any person they like?- Yes. Mr. Grierson of Quendale has a station at Voe in tack, and the fishermen are not bound to fish for him unless they like.

12,853. Have you dealings with all the fishermen in your neighbourhood on the Simbister estate?-Not with all, but with most of them.

12,854. And also with some on the Sumburgh and Quendale estates?-Yes.

12,855. Are your transactions with these men generally paid for in cash, or do you run accounts with them?-We run accounts with them partly, and their purchases are paid in cash partly.

12,856. Do you run accounts with them for any length of time?- For a year. There is only a yearly settlement here, and we run accounts with them to the end of the year, when they settle with their fish-merchants. Then, as a rule, they pay us, though there are exceptions.

12,857. How do these exceptions occur?-Perhaps they are not able to pay us.

12,858. I suppose you are not very willing to give long credits in that way?-No. We would wish very much to have the credit system done away with; but we must do it.

12,859. You have not got the same security as a curer for whom the men are fishing?-No.

12,860. Do you think that more of the fishermen would deal with you if you were able to afford them the same credit as they get from the curers?-It is very likely they would.

12,861. But you restrict their credits?-Yes.

12,862. Have you understood from any of the fishermen, that they are obliged to deal at Grutness or Quendale in order that they may get their goods on credit?-Mr. Bruce, so far, as I know, does not interfere with his men with regard to the purchase of their groceries or goods. If they buy at Grutness, I suppose it will be so much the better; but if they did not buy there, I never heard any of them say that Mr. Bruce would say anything to them.

12,863. That is not the question. What I asked was, whether the fact that they can get a longer credit there, and there only, and that they have no ready money, obliged them to go to these shops?- Very often it does.

12,864. Do you know that from the statements of the fishermen themselves?-Yes.

12,865. Is it a common feeling amongst men with whom you come in contact, that they would like to have liberty to fish for themselves?-Yes, very much so.

12,866. Do they speak as if they felt that the restriction which is put upon them with regard to fishing is also a restriction as to the shop at which they are to deal?-If they have no cash, it comes to be a restriction. What the men want is to have the stations in their own power, so as to be able to dry their fish for themselves, or to sell to whom they like. That would give a competition in trade; but while the fishermen are bound to fish to certain parties, it causes a monopoly in trade.

12,867. What is about the utmost amount to which you can allow an account to run in the course of the year?-It depends very much upon the position of the party who is running the account. Ordinarily we allow an account with fishermen to run from 30s. to £2, but some of them run accounts up to £10.

12,868. Have you any men on the Sumburgh or Quendale estates who have run up accounts as high as £8 or [Page 319]£10?-Not on Sumburgh or Quendale to that extent; but I daresay some of them do run up accounts to the extent of £5 or £6 or £7.

12,869. Are the men who run accounts to that extent fewer upon these estates than upon the Simbister estate and the other estates in the district?-We don't run such heavy accounts as that with any men at all, unless they have something else to fall back upon

12,870. What was about the average price of your meal in 1870?- It varied very much. Before the French War broke out, the meal was very low. I remember that in the first of the season we were selling oatmeal for 17s. per boll, or 34s. a sack.

12,871. How much was that per lispund?-4s. 3d.; and it rose throughout the season to about 21s. 6d. or 22s., or 5s. 6d. per lispund.

12,872. Is the lispund less than a quarter boll?-We give it nearly about the same size. We give 34 lbs. to a lispund.

12,873 Is that usual in the country?-No; 32 lbs is the usual measure. We give 8 lbs. for a peck, and charge a less price for it than for a quarter of a lispund. We have the meal in boll bags, and when parties want a boll we sell it without breaking bulk.

12,874. Would you look over your books for 1870, and ascertain the highest and the lowest price at which you bought and sold meal in the course of that year?-Yes.*

12,875 At what are you selling tobacco?-We sell Irish roll at 11d. per quarter, and mid at 1s. per quarter. We sell the mid at 31/2d. per ounce, or 6d. for 2 ounces.

12,876 What is the price of the best quality of soft sugar?-We sell soft brown sugar at 5d. per lb. We sell our best crushed sugar at 6d., and hard sugar at 61/2d.

12,877 Do you sell lines?-Sometimes. Our price for 2-lb. lines is 2s., for 21/4-lb. lines 2s. 3d., and for hooks is 8d. per 100.

12,878. Are these quite as good as are sold by your neighbours?-I suppose they are. We sell them freely.

12,879. What is the price of a 60-fathom line?-We don't keep these, but they generally come to about 1s. per lb. The price depends upon the weight. When we buy fish we do so at a stated price, which is fixed at the time of the purchase Most of the fish we buy are in the winter time, from those tenants of Mr. Bruce who fish for Hay & Co. and Mr. Robertson and Mr. Mullay in summer. In winter they are free to sell to whom they like; and we put a price on the fish, and give them cash over the counter when the fish are delivered.

12,880. Do they sometimes take away the price of their fish in goods?-They can please themselves. We pay them cash, and they buy goods or not as they like

12,881. Do you always give them cash?-Yes, when we have got it. Sometimes we may give them an I O U, and others prefer to have the amount put to their accounts but the fish are bought at a certain price, and that is divided at the time amongst the men.

12,882. In winter the boat's crew, I suppose, consists of 3 or 4 men?-Yes.

12,883. Is any difficulty experienced in fixing the shares of the men at the time?-No. The price is just divided among them according to the way in which they want it.

12,884. You ascertain the price of the whole catch of the boat, and then each man takes his third or his fourth, as the case may be?- Yes, whatever the catch may be, each man gets his share of it.

12,885. Would there be any difficulty in paying for the fish in that way in the summer fishing?-In the summer fishing it would not work very well, because it would not do to give the men their cash just off-hand; but there is a way in which it could be done equally well. Suppose the men knew what the price of the fish was to be, the amount could be left in the hands of the parties who bought their fish from them. They don't require to draw all their money at once.

12,886. Do you mean that they could draw some of it?-Yes. What I hear the men complain of is, that they don't know what price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season; but if they had the fishing in their own hands, so that they could sell to whom they liked, they could make their bargain at the commencement of the season if they chose, in the same way as the herring fishing is carried on at Wick.

12,887. Or they might fix the price from week to week, or from month to month?-Yes. If there were several parties who were at liberty to buy the fish from the men, that would cause competition in the market, and the probability is the price would go higher.

12,888. But you think it would not work so well to have the men paid every time the boat came in in summer?-I don't think it would, because they would be liable to spend the money.

12,889. Is that the only reason why you think that system would not work?-Yes, the only reason.

12,890. Would there be any difficulty in settling?-We don't experience any difficulty in settling with our men.

12,891. Might it not require a curer at a station such as Spiggie or Ireland, or at a more distant place, to have a more efficient factor there than he would otherwise have, and perhaps also to keep money there?-That might be avoided. For instance, Mr. Irvine has some workmen here who work for him in building houses and other things; and he tells their foreman to hand us in a note of their time every fortnight, in order that we may settle up with the men. The men don't choose to draw their money whenever it falls due; but we give the foreman a few pounds, and he gives them as much money as they like to draw. Some of them don't draw any of their wages until the end of the season, when they get it to pay their rents with; and the fishing might be managed in the same way.

12,892. Are those masons and labourers who are employed by Mr. Irvine?-Yes; on the Simbister estate. Of course they know the money is there, and they can draw it every fortnight if they like; but there is nothing to prevent them from leaving it until the end of the season, or whenever they wish to square up.

12,893. I suppose these men very often have accounts running at the same time?-Some of them have, and some have not; but that is quite a distinct matter. Their wages are always paid to them in cash.

12,894. But they often don't choose to ask for it?-They sometimes don't choose to ask for it till the end of the season.

12,895. Do you think they have a fear themselves that it might be spent if they took it sooner?-It is quite possible they have.

12,896. And they get what they want in the meantime at your shop, or anywhere else where they can have credit?-They may or they may not, as they like. That is entirely at their own option; but they can get supplies of cash from their foreman when they want them.

12,897. Is it the foreman who gives the money to them?-Yes. We supply the foreman with cash when he wants it; and then he gives it to the men when they want it, and charges it against them.

12,898. You have a note of the men's time furnished [Page 320] to you every fortnight by the foreman. What is the purpose of that?-In order that the accounts may be regularly kept.

12,899. Who keeps the accounts?-We do.

12,900. Do you add up the men's time every fortnight, and make a note of the amount that is due to each?-Yes.

12,901. In that way, supposing a man has an account with you, you know whether he has been overdrawing it in goods or otherwise?-Yes; but he draws the cash from the foreman if he applies for it, and then the foreman gives us a note of the cash he has paid, and of the man's time for the fortnight.

12,902. But if the man takes out goods he settles with you?-Yes; or if he draws the money from the foreman, he pays the goods he has got from us with it.

12,903. If he has an account with you, in that case he will settle with you at once?-If he has an account with us he allows his account to go on, and the foreman pays him cash when he wants it When he gets cash from the foreman, it is at his own option to square his account with it or not, as he likes.

12,904. If the man is in your debt, do you still give him the cash?-Yes.

12,905. But you could retain it if there was any doubt about the men's solvency?-We always do hand them the cash.

12,906. You have never had occasion to retain it on account of a man's delay or refusal to pay his debt?-No.

12,907. Do you sometimes get stray lots of fish during the summer?-Not much. Sometimes, perhaps, we get a 'supper piltock.' The men take home a few fish for their own family use, Sometimes a man has large family, and another man has a small family, but they require to take home an equal number of fish to each of them; and then the man who does not require so much sells what he has got extra and that is called a supper piltock.

12,908. I suppose there is not much smuggling of fish going on here?-I don't think so; not in the summer time.

12,909. But if a man who is bound to fish wants a little ready money, does he not come to you with a lot of fish?-Not in the summer time; they would not be safe to do that. They would get their warning if they sold their fish past their proprietor in the summer time.

12,910. If it were known?-Yes, if it were known.

12,911. But don't they try to do it sometimes on the sly?-I don't know that they do.

12,912. You take them all for supper piltocks, if any are brought to you?-I suppose so.

12,913. Do you buy hosiery upon the system that is usual in the country?-No; we buy for cash.

12,914. Are you the only merchants in Shetland who do so?-I don't know; but it is very little hosiery we deal in. We find it very easy to buy, but very difficult to sell. We are not rightly in the market. We wish to carry on the hosiery trade on the same principle as the rest of our business, buying everything at a cash price, and giving cash for it if it is asked.

12,915. Do you find any unwillingness on the part of the knitters to take lower prices for their hosiery if they are to be paid for it in cash?-No, they are ready to sell for lower prices if they can get cash; and so they may, because sometimes girls come into our shop with cottons or flowers or other goods which they have brought from Lerwick, and ask us to exchange them.

12,916. Are you often asked to take flowers in that way?-Not often, because we refuse to do it, unless they are goods which have been bought from ourselves. In that case we exchange them; but if they are bought from other parties we won't take them. We find that the goods which are offered to us as having been received for hosiery are very much higher priced than what we would sell the goods at ourselves.

12,917. Have you been offered goods in that way lately?-Not lately, because we have refused to take them. The girls have told us that there is no use asking for cash in Lerwick, because they won't get it, and they don't ask us to take the goods, because they know we won't take them.

12,918. Do you remember any case in which you were offered goods that had been obtained for hosiery at a lower price than they were nominally sold at to them?-I have been offered goods at a lower price, certainly, but I could not mention any particular case.

12,919. Has that happened more than once?-It has happened very often.

12,920. About what amount of business are you doing in hosiery on that system?-Very little at present.

12,921. Is that because you don't get a sale for it?-Yes. As I said, we have not got into the market rightly.

12,922. Do you find it difficult to get the hosiery sold at a profit when you buy it on that system?-Yes.

12,923. Have you been obliged to sell it at something like the price which you paid for it?-Yes, we don't look for a profit upon hosiery.

12,924. Then why do you deal in it if you don't look for a profit?-Because it gives the people a chance of getting cash for it, and then we have a chance of getting the cash again.

12,925. I suppose that generally you do get the cash again?- Generally we do; but that is quite optional with the people themselves.

12,926. Do you pay for hosiery in goods at all?-If they ask for goods, of course we give them goods; but if they ask for cash they get it. That is the way in which we do all our business. We put the goods that we buy at cash prices, and we put the goods that we sell at cash prices, and it is a matter of indifference to us whether they ask goods or cash.

12,927. But, in point of fact, the hosiery may be paid for in goods, and no cash may pass if the party so chooses?-That may happen, but we don't do it as rule. As a rule, some other party buys the hosiery who knows better about it than I do, and hands the cash to the party from whom the hosiery is bought, and then they are at liberty to buy from us, or from any other person they like.

12,928. Are the eggs which you buy paid for on the same principle?-They are paid for in goods or cash, as the parties wish.

12,929. But the custom of the country is to pay for them in goods?-That is the custom of the country.

12,930. Do you generally find that the people who bring them are content to take the price, or prefer to take the price of them in goods?-They often take the price in goods, because they want them, but at the same time that is quite optional with themselves.

12,931. Are there not two prices for these things, whether they are paid in goods or cash?-Some parties have two prices, but we have not. We have only one price. We often prefer to pay the people in cash when they really want goods, because it saves a great deal of trouble in settling with them, and then they buy goods again.

12,932. Do you find that your cash transactions for goods are generally greater at one season of the year than at another?-Yes, very much greater. Our busy season for cash commences when the landlords and fishcurers commence to pay the men for their season's fishing, and we continue to drive a large trade of that description until April.

12,933. Do you then find the men beginning to ask for credit more frequently?-Yes.

12,934. Do you think it would be better for the trade generally, as well as for the men, if they were paid more frequently, and the settlements were not so distant?-It would certainly be better for us if they were paid more frequently, because then we would be paid more frequently also.

12,935. Do you think it would be better for the men too, and that they would make a better bargain with their money, or do you think it is just as well that the money should be kept for them?-I consider that the money is kept up a great deal too long. For instance, if the fish-curers paid for the fish at the end of the fishing season, that is, on 1st September, that might serve the men very well; but as it is with some parties, it is the 1st of April or the end of March before they are paid.

[Page 321]

12,936. Are the men sometimes in difficulties with regard to their supplies, in consequence of that?-No; because if they have anything to get, they can obtain supplies from the stores of the fish-merchants. They can get anything they like from them in goods. Perhaps that is the reason why the settlement is sometimes so long delayed, because it gives the men the chance of running a larger account than they would otherwise do and then they have less cash to get.

12,937. Have you any ground for that statement other than from mere inference?-No. There is one thing I may mention in connection with the fishing, that when the men sell their fish green, the drying of them must be paid for to other parties; but suppose the men dried the fish themselves, there are often windy days, when they cannot be at the fishing, and then they work at the drying of their own fish when they would have been doing nothing if they had been on-shore. In that way they can dry their fish for themselves very much cheaper than the fish-curer can dry them.

12,938. But can they do it as well? Do you think the fish cured by a fisherman himself command as good a market as those cured on a large scale by a curer?-We have had very little experience in that matter, because we don't buy fish in that way.

12,939. Do you cure any fish at all?-Yes; we cure the fish which we buy in the winter time wet.

12,940. How many fish do you sell in the course of a year?-From 10 to 20 tons.

12,941. Do you sell these at what is called the current price?- There is a current price for the ling fishing, according to which the fishermen are paid, and we try to get the most out of the fish that we can.

12,942. Do you generally get above or below what is called the current price in Shetland?-I don't know, because merchants, as a rule, don't care about saying much about what they have got for their fish.

12,943. Are you not consulted by other curers about fixing the current price?-No; we just act for ourselves.

12,944. Do you get a lower price for winter fish than is given for summer fish?-Yes, as a rule, we get less for them.

12,945. Your father is present to-day, but he prefers that you should be examined, as he is not in very good health?-Yes.

*Mr. Henderson afterwards furnished the following statement:-

LIST of OATMEAL invoiced to and sold by Gavin Henderson, Dunrossness, in 1870. Date of Invoice. 1870. a March 11. 24 Bolls Oatmeal, sold by him at 16s. 6d b " 18. 24 " " 17s. 0d c April 15. 8 " " 18s. 0d d May 13. 6 " " 18s. 0d e " 13. 14 " " 18s. 0d f June 3. 20. " " 19s. 0d g 24. 8 " " 19s. 6d h July 26. 16 " " 21s. 0d i Aug. 10. 2 " " 22s. 0d j Sept. 30. 2 " " 19s. 6d k Nov. 4. 2 " " 19s. 0d. l 126 Bolls

a ...£19 16 0 b ... 20 8 0 c ... 7 4 0 d ... 5 8 0 e ... 12 12 0 f ... 19 0 0 g ... 7 16 0 h ... 16 16 0 i ... 2 4 0 j ... 1 19 0 k ... 1 18 0 l £115 1 0 Average price sold at per Boll, 18s. 3d, as nearly as has been ascertained.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, THOMAS TULLOCH, examined.

12,946. You are a fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden?-Yes.

12,947. Do you employ a number of boats' crews for fishing in summer?-Yes. I think I had about 20 altogether last year.

12,948. Are the men you employ chiefly tenants on the Simbister estate?-No; they are on the Sandlodge part of the Sumburgh estate.

12,949. Are they in any way restricted as to the person to whom they are to sell their fish?-No.

12,950. Do you also buy fish in winter from any men who choose to sell them to you?-Yes.

12,951. Have you bought any from tenants on the Quendale estate?-No, not from Quendale tenants.

12,952. Have you bought any fish in winter from the Sumburgh tenants in Dunrossness?-No.

12,953. Do you settle with your fishermen annually in the winter, in the same way as other merchants do?-Yes; once at year.

12,954. Have you a shop at which they run accounts?-Yes.

12,955. I suppose they generally incur an account in the course of the year, which runs away with part of their earnings?-Yes.

12,956. And you set the one against the other?-Yes.

12,957. Are your boats hired out to the men?-In some cases they are, but in other cases they are their own boats.

12,958. What is the amount of the boat hire they pay?-£2 for the summer.

12,959. Do you hire out lines and hooks also?-Very seldom.

12,960. Do you sometimes make an arrangement by which the men buy a boat and pay for it by instalments?-Yes. It will take about five years to pay it up.

12,961. Is that arrangement made at the beginning of the transaction, or do you just sell the boat, and leave the men to pay it up as they are able?-It is an arrangement which is entered into at the beginning. They have to pay so much every year,-say £1 a year from every man.

12,962. Do you find that the men generally manage to settle up for their boats within the five years?-Yes, about that time.

12,963. How long does at boat last?-Some of them last longer than others, but I should say that on an average they last about fifteen or sixteen years.

12,964. Do you pay the same rate for the fish that are caught by men who own a boat and by those who hire one?-The same.

12,965. Is the price which you pay for your fish generally a higher one than the current price?-Generally it is a little higher.

12,966. What is the reason for that?-I don't know. We like to get the services of the men, if possible.

12,967. I understand the current price last year was 8s. for ling?-I don't think it was so much.

12,968. What did you pay?-I paid 8s. 3d. in 1870, and 8s. 9d. in 1871.

12,969. Do you think the current price was less than 8s.?-I think so, but I am not quite certain.

12,970. Are you obliged to give a higher price in consequence of competition among fish-curers in your neighbourhood?-No.

12,971. Then why do you do it?-We just want to satisfy the men.

12,972. Do the men in your district require a higher price than their neighbours in order to be satisfied?-Yes; they want a higher price, and it has been paid for some years back.

12,973. Can you account for that in any way?-No. I once got into the way of giving a little more than the currency, and the men have always looked for it since.

12,974. Were not the men in your district, until lately, bound to fish for a tacksman, Robert Mouat?-Not in our district. The men who fished for him lived at some distance from me.

12,975. Have you settled this year?-Yes.

12,976. What would be about the average amount of cash which each man had to receive at settlement?-I should say about £4.

12,977. Would the amount of his earning from the fishing be £12 or £15 on an average?-Not so much. It might be about £8 or £9.

12,978. Has the fishing in your neighbourhood been less successful this year than in other parts of Shetland?-It has been less successful for some time back, but last year it has done very well; I should suppose about an average.

12,979. Some of your men, I suppose, would have nothing to take at settlement?-Yes, some had nothing.

12,980. They had exhausted the amount of their earnings by advances in shop goods?-Yes, and in money advances too. The advances were not all in shop goods.

12,981. Do they often ask for advances before the end of the season?-Often.

12,982. Do you think it would be an advantage if they were paid more frequently for their fish?-I don't think so. I think they would not get such high prices.

12,983. Do you mean that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, the merchant would be cautious about fixing a high price?-Yes.

12,984. But if the prices varied from time to time, according to the state of the market, would the men not be better to have the money in their own hands, and then they would have a chance of a variable price?-In that case they would; but some people don't know how [Page 322] to take care of their money when they get it. They don't know how to lay it out.

12,985. If they had money in their own hands, would they not learn to take care of it?-I don't know. I think it would be rather a difficult matter to learn some of them.

12,986. What other fish-curers are there in your neighbourhood?- Mr. Smith. There is no other merchant in the immediate neighbourhood. Mr. Harrison has also some curing done there.

12,987. Has he a station there?-Yes; it is about mile from my place.

12,988. How far is Mr. Smith from you?-He is next door.

12,989. Is there not a good deal of competition between you three?-Not much.

12,990. Are you not all anxious to get a larger number of boats to fish for you?-Of course.

12,991. Has not that some effect upon the price which you offer for the fishing?-Perhaps it has a little.

12,992. Do you think if you were the only curer there, you would be able to get your men to give you their fish for 8s.?-Perhaps I might, if they could get no other body to take them, and who would give them more.

12,993. Have you always given the same price as Mr. Smith, or is there sometimes a difference between you?-There never is any difference.

12,994. How long have you been in business there?-For fifteen years.

12,995. How long has he been there?-I think about sixteen or seventeen years.

12,996. Do his men sometimes shift from him to you, or the other way?-Yes, sometimes.

12,997. Is there any particular reason for that?-I cannot say; I suppose it is just their fancy.

12,998. Is a man more likely to shift when he is in your debt, or when he is out of it?-When he is out of it.

12,999. When he is in your debt, does he like to continue to fish for you until his debt is paid off?-Sometimes he does.

13,000. Have you any arrangement with Mr. Smith by which, when a man changes from one place to the other, the new employer takes in hand the debt which the man is due to his former employer; or becomes responsible for it?-There is no arrangement of that kind between us.

13,001. Have you sometimes done that?-I believe I have done it.

13,002. Have you undertaken a debt due to Mr. Smith?-Yes, when it was not very much.

13,003. And you have got it from the man at the end of the season, or as soon as he was able to pay it, and handed it over to Mr. Smith?-Yes; he either got it, or it was set down in his book.

13,004. How often may that have happened?-Not very often.

13,005. Has it been done lately?-Yes.

13,006. I suppose it is not an unusual thing in the fishing trade for that to be done?-It is not unusual. Of course, the curer that the man leaves expects him to pay his debt when he does leave.

13,007. Are you responsible to any landlords for the rents of their tenants?-No.

13,008. Do you, in point of fact, sometimes pay the fishermen's rents for them?-Yes, to Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.

13,009. That is to say, the fishermen, instead of getting the money from you, have the amount of their rent entered in their accounts, and you pay the whole in a cheque to Mr. Bruce?-Yes; but in some cases I give the money to the men.

13,010. How do you pay it to the landlord when it is paid by you to him?-I just give Mr. Bruce a cheque for the whole when it is collected together.

13,011. How many men's rents may you have paid in that way last year?-I think about six. I gave money to the others, and they handed it to Mr. Bruce themselves.

13,012. Is there any arrangement with the landlord that you should do that?-None.

13,013. Does he sometimes apply to you for the rents of particular men?-No.

13,014. Do you sometimes buy cattle?-No.

13,015. Do you buy eggs?-Yes.

13,016. Do you pay for them in goods?-Yes.

13,017. Have you two prices for them, as they are paid in goods or in cash?-No. If the people did want cash I would not like to give them so much in cash as in goods, because it is cash that I look for in return.

13,018. But I suppose you are never asked for cash payment for eggs?-Very seldom.

13,019. What is the price of meal at your shop just now?-I think Scotch meal is about 5s. a quarter, or 20s. a boll.

13,020. What was it in the summer of 1870?-I don't remember.

13,021. What was it last summer?-I think it was about 5s. or 6s. up or down, according to the market.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JAMES SMITH, examined.

13,022. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Hill Cottage, Sandwick?-I am.

13,023. Your shop is near that of Mr. Tulloch?-Yes, next door.

13,024. You have heard his evidence?-Yes.

13,025. Do you conduct your business in the same way?-The very same.

13,026. How many boats do you employ?-I had about twenty last summer.

13,027. What did you pay for you fish then?-8s. 9d., and I understand the current price of the country has been 8s.

13,028. Have you paid 9d. more than the currency?-Yes, on ling.

13,029. Did you pay as much higher a price for cod and tusk?- No. We paid 7s. for cod and tusk, and I understand the current price of the country has been 6s. 6d. We paid 4s. 3d. for saith, and I understand the current price has been 4s.

13,030. Do you generally pay as much above the current price as you have done last year?-No, not as general thing.

13,031. Can you assign any reason for your price this year being so much higher?-No, I cannot assign any particular reason.

13,032. Is it not in order that you may get as many fishermen as you require?-The great reason is to try to please the fishermen as far as possible; and in our quarter they are very bad to please.

13,033. Why do you want to please them?-To get them to fish for us. We are anxious to have as many fishermen as possible. There is one thing which enables Mr. Tulloch and I to pay somewhat higher prices than the currency; which is, that our curing places are very near to ourselves, and we can always see the curing carried on, and can cure cheaper.

13,034. Do any of the fishermen in your district cure for themselves?-Yes.

13,035. Do you buy from them?-Sometimes. They sell to us if they choose.

13,036. Do you think the fish which they cure are as good as yours?-Not unless they have a factor. When they cure them by their own hands they are never so good.

13,037. What do you mean by them having a factor?-A man set over the fish to look after the curing of them, the same as I have.

13,038. Do the fishermen who cure for themselves have a factor?-Yes; the men at our place have a man to whom they pay so much per ton per every ton of dried fish which are produced.

13,039. In that case, where the fishermen agree to employ a factor, do you think the curing is as well done as it is by you?-It is, when they get an experienced man for the purpose.

[Page 323]

13,040. In that case do the men club together in order to buy implements, vats, and other things for curing?-Yes.

13,041. It is it sort of co-operative system?-Yes.

13,042. Do you do anything in hosiery?-No.

13,043. Do you buy eggs, and pay for them in goods?-Yes.

13,044. Are the prices of the goods in your shop the same as in Mr. Tulloch's?-They are generally the same.

13,045. What is the price of meal at present?-Scotch oatmeal is 20s. a boll, or 5s. a quarter; Shetland meal is only 3s. or 3s. 6d.

13,046. Is the Shetland oatmeal of much inferior quality?-As a general thing, it is much inferior. There is not much of it sold. The people generally use their own meal, and it is much to be regretted that they require a great deal more than what they can grow.

13,047. Do you think you could manage to pay your people, without much inconvenience, as the fish are landed?-I think I might manage that, but I don't think it would be for the public good. In the first place, the fishermen would not be able to get the fishing articles and the quantity of meal they require before the fishing commenced, because they would not have money to pay for them. Another reason is, that if they had the money they don't very well know how to manage it, and it would be spent before rent time came. Then, if they had no money, the landlord would have to go and take their corn or their cattle and roup them in order to get his rent, and the people would be losers.

13,048. Do you think one advantage of the present system is, that it carries the men through a bad year?-Yes. Last year we had a very good fishing, but the majority of them had their rents to get. For as few fishermen as I have, I had to advance them in order to help them to pay their rents.

13,049. Do you sometimes pay their rents for them?-I do so, as a general thing. It is expected that the fish-merchant will not see them at a loss; but, of course, if a ready-money system was introduced, they could not look to the fish-merchant for any help.

13,050. Why should they not look to him then?-If I only had the men engaged from voyage to voyage, or from week to week, and did not have the advantage of knowing that they were to fish for me next year, it could not be expected that I would advance them £140 to help them in paying their rents for this year.

13,051. But perhaps they would not need it if they were in the habit of getting their money?-In my opinion, they would need it more than they do now.

13,052. Have not other people than fishermen sometimes to pay rents?-Yes.

13,053. And they manage to have it in hand when the rent day comes?-Yes; but these people, as a general rule, have bigger farms, and cattle and ponies that they sell, and that helps them on with their rents.

13,054. But there are rents to be paid by people who have small farms, or no farms at all; and if they manage to gather up for their rent day, might not the fishermen do so as well?-They might do so; but in our quarter-and I can only speak for it-the great majority of the people have enough to do when there is a good season, and when there is a bad one they are far short.

13,055. Then I suppose the reason which you are now assigning for keeping up the present system is rounded upon your opinion, that the people of Shetland are less careful and less sensible than people of the same class in other parts of Scotland?-I don't believe they are less sensible than the fishermen or men of the same class elsewhere. I believe there are as competent men in Shetland, as a general rule, as in any other part of Scotland; but the fishing is a very fluctuating piece of business, and I think that very often they could not manage to save up money for their rent if there was a cash system. Of course there are differences among them. There are some men in our quarter who are laying past money, while there are others who are overhead in debt, in spite of all that can be done for them.

13,056. I understand you have been frequently at Fair Isle?-I think it is about six or seven years since I was there last, but I was very often there before. I had a small vessel of my own, and I went to the Isle to barter goods with the people. I bartered them for cash, not for fish.

13,057. Did you go there every year for some time?-I went three or four times in some years, and I continued going for seven or eight years.

13,058. Did you go as a private speculation of your own?-Yes.

13,059. What kind of goods did you take?-Tea, sugar, tobacco and cottons.

13,060. Was there any particular reason for giving up that trade?- No; I was getting tired of it.

13,061. Did you find it a hazardous sort of thing?-It was very much so: I ran many a risk of losing my life. It was an open vessel, without a deck, that I went in, and in the winter time the coast there is very dangerous.

13,062. Was the market open at that time at Fair Isle?-Generally in the winter time it was.

13,063. Was it not open in the summer time also?-Not so much, because the man who had it in tack generally supplied the fishermen at that time with their stores and meal. I made one or two trips there with meal, because the people sent for me to bring it, as their master could not get their meal forwarded so quickly from Orkney as they required it.

13,064. Who was the tacksman then?-John Hughson from Orkney.

13,065. Have you been there since he ceased to be tacksman?- Never.

13,066. Was your trade with the Fair Isle people objected to by him?-He never objected to me.

13,067. Did he object to any one else?-Not to my knowledge.

13,068. Then you could trade with the people as much as you pleased?-Yes; there was no restriction whatever. I very often spoke with Mr. Hughson himself.

13,069. Did you stop at the time when Hughson ceased to be tacksman?-I was almost giving up the trade before he ceased to be tacksman. His time was not quite run out the last time I was there.

13,070. Who succeeded Mr. Hughson as tacksman?-Mr. John Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh.

13,071. You have not been there since he became tacksman?- Never as a trader. I was there once when a ship was wrecked on the Seil. I have made a mistake there: I have been once at the island trading since Mr. Bruce bought it, and I had full liberty from him to go.

13,072. Did you get express permission from him?-Yes.

13,073. When was that?-I don't remember; it may have been four or five years ago.

13,074. Why did you ask permission?-He wished me to go in with goods to the people, and I told him I did not like to go with freight there unless he would allow me to trade for myself; and then he gave me full liberty.

13,075. Was Mr. Bruce not sending a vessel of his own at that time?-He could not get a vessel to go. It is such a nasty coast for inexperienced men, that it is difficult to get men to venture there.

13,076. You agreed to go only on condition that you had the trade in your own hands?-Yes; and I had his freight in the meantime.

13,077. Did you understand at that time that you were not at liberty to trade with the Fair Isle people without Mr. Bruce's permission?-I did not understand anything about it. He only asked me to go with freight, and I asked him if I would be at liberty to trade with the people myself, and he said I would.

13,078. Did he not say that it was only for this special occasion that you were to have liberty?-He did not.

[Page 324]

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, 1872 JOHN HALCROW, examined.

13,079. You are a fisherman at Levenwick?-I am.

13,080. On whose property is your ground?-On that of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

13,081. Was that ground formerly under tack to Robert Mouat?- Yes. His tack expired about a year ago; but before that, he had become bankrupt.

13,082. Were you bound to fish for him?-Yes.

13,083. Were you also obliged to deal at his shop?-No. I had a little money of my own, and I went to any merchant that I thought I could get the best bargain from.

13,084. Did you go to Mouat for a good bargain?-No.

13,085. Why?-Because he never had good bargains. The quality of his articles was not good, and the price was dearer than that of any merchant in the neighbourhood.

13,086. Were many men in the habit of dealing with him?-Mr. Bruce's tenantry both in Channerwick and Levenwick were bound to fish for him.

13,087. But did they deal with him for shop goods and provisions?-Yes, almost all of them dealt with him.

13,088. Why?-Because they were bound to do it.

13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.

13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?- No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce, and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.

13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes, for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had any money to get from him.

13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he received all their fish.

13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.

13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if they would take it.

13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.

13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.

13,097. Then they would have money to get, at the end of the year if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.

13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He said he did not have it to give them.

13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases they got it.

13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.

13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they would not take his goods.

13,102. Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.

13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.

13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to give me.

13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of 1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again to Mr William Irvine.

13,106. Why did you give Mouat your rent for 1871 nearly two years before it was due?-Because I thought he was to have the tack for two years more.

13,107. But it was your own fault, was it not that you had to pay it twice?-I don't know about that.

13,108. Could you not have got the money from Mouat?-No. I would have had to apply to the civil law to get it.

13,109. You could have got the value of it in goods from him?- Yes. I could have got it in goods; but they were of an inferior quality, and I did not want to take them. [The witness produced a receipt for the rent of 1871 from Mr. William Irvine, and also receipt from Mouat in the following terms: '£5 MOUL, 13 . 1871. ' This is to certify that I have from Thomas Halcrow the rent of 1871 in my hands. ROBT. MO.']

13,110. Is that Mouat's signature?-Yes; it is what I got from him.

13,111. Did you see him write it?-I did.

13,112. Do you know any other men who paid rent to Mouat in the same way?-I don't know of any others who paid him in that particular way, but I know some men who had money in his hands.

13,113. Was John Mouat one of them?-Yes. He had money in Robert Mouat's hands by the fishing.

13,114. Was he not able to get his money at the settlement of 1870?-No. I know that he could not get it.

13,115. Do you know anything about that except that he could not get it?-No.

13,116. You have another document in your hands: what is it?-It is a copy of our account from Mr. Smith for the fishing.

13,117. Do you get a copy of your accounts from Mr. Smith at every settlement?-Yes. I have only settled with him one year.

13,118. This is an account for two men; and it shows the prices you got in 1871,-ling 8s. 9d., cod 7s., tusk 7s., and saith 4s. 3d.?-Yes.

13,119. Did you get all that in cash?-Yes, except what I had received in cash before. I had received a little cash in the course of the summer. I had got no advances from him in goods, because his shop was so far from where I lived.

13,120. Why are the two men's accounts in the same slip of paper?-Because there are five of us who go in one boat; and three men agreed to fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun. and two for Mr. James Smith.

13,121. Whose boat was it?-James Gilbertson was the skipper; and the boat belonged to the men.

13,122. Is it a usual arrangement, that part of the crew fish to one merchant and part to another?-No.

13,123. How did it happen in this case?-Because we wanted our liberty. We did not want to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson.

13,124. Would you not have been at liberty if you had fished for Mr. Robertson?-Our reason for not fishing for him was because Robert Mouat called all his tenants to the Moul, and ordered them to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson for him two rising years.

13,125. Was Mr. John Robertson Mouat's trustee in his sequestration?-Yes.

13,126. Some of you declined to fish for him, and others engaged to fish?-Yes.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GILBERT IRVINE, examined.

13,127. Are you shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, jun.?-I am.

13,128. Do you also act as factor on the estate?-I don't know that I could be called a factor exactly. I just do things about the estate as Mr. Bruce wishes me.

13,129. But you are sometimes employed as, a factor or overseer going about the estate?-Yes, at times.

13,130. Are you aware that the tenants on the Sumburgh estate in Dunrossness parish are under tack to Mr. John Bruce, jun., and are bound to deliver their fish to him?-It is understood that they are to do so, but some of them don't do it. There are some of them who have not fished for Mr. Bruce, and are not are very doing so at the present time; but these are very few. The general understanding is, that they are to deliver their fish to him.

13,131. How long have you been at Grutness?-About twenty-three or twenty-four years.

13,132. I believe it was about 1860 that Mr Bruce took the tack?- Yes.

13,133. How were you employed at Grutness before [Page 325] then?-I was there for Messrs. Hay & Co. They had the shop there formerly, and some of the men belonging to that estate were employed by them as fishermen.

13,134. Do you remember intimation being made to the tenants about 1860 that they were expected to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. I think there was some person sent round with a letter to that effect, but I did not see the letter.

13,135. However, you know that such an intimation was made?-I understood so.

13,136 Do you remember, a good many years ago, of one James Brown at Toab selling some fish to Robert Leslie?-I don't remember about that at present.

13,137. Do you remember of James Brown's farm being advertised to be let at the shop, a ticket being put up there?-I don't remember about that.

13,138. May it have happened, although you do not remember?- It is possible it may have happened; but I don't remember anything about it at the present moment.

13,139. Can you say that such a thing did not happen twelve years ago?-I think James Brown had not got a farm twelve years ago.

13,140. Perhaps it was his father?-I never knew his father. I think his father was dead before James Brown came to the parish.

13,141. Do you remember any case of a farm being advertised because the tenant had sold his fish, or attempted to sell them, to another merchant?-I do not remember any case of a farm being advertised for man selling fish. The tenants have been reproved for doing so; but I cannot remember of any farm being advertised for that.

13,142. Have you spoken to them about doing such things?-Very likely I have.

13,143. Do you know one Thomas Aitken?-Yes.

13,144 Do you know whether he had to sign a paper agreeing to fish for Mr. Bruce so long as he lived on the ground?-I did not see the paper.

13,145. It was not through you that that was done?-No.

13,146. Was there any special arrangement with him about fishing?-I don't remember anything about it. If there was such an arrangement, it would be with Mr. Bruce.

13,147. You say you have sometimes reproved the tenants for selling their fish to others?-Yes. There have been some seasons when, from the end of October until May, they delivered none at all, or not more than perhaps one cwt. or so. I believe most of them have not delivered more than that during the whole time.

13,148. But that was their winter fishing?-Yes.

13,149. Have you said to them that they ought to deliver some of their winter fish to you?-I told them, even last year, that if the proprietor was aware that they were selling all their fish to other merchants, he would be offended at them, or something to that effect.

13,150. Had that any effect?-Not much.

13,151. They did not bring their winter fish to you?-No.

13,152. Would it be as convenient for them to bring their winter fish to you as to another?-Mr. Bruce had a station at the beach head, and a factor, who was paid all the season round, for taking fish, and salt and everything ready for them, but they would not bring them to him.

13,153. Where did they go with them?-I don't know, I suppose to the merchants round about.

13,154. Did they go to Messrs. Hay & Co., or to Quendale?-I could not say where they went.

13,155. Why did they not choose to come to you?-I don't know. It is a general practice in Shetland, that tenants fishing for landlords try to do as much trade with other merchants as they can.

13,156. What has been their reason for that practice?-I think the fact that they fish for their landlords has created a kind of feeling that they are rather in bondage.

13,157. And they like to have their liberty in winter?-I think their feeling is, that they don't like the proprietor to know all their transactions. That has been a practice in Shetland for a long time, both in the north and the south.

13,158. Have you had occasion to reprove the tenants for carrying off their fish or smuggling them to other merchants in summer?-I think I have done so once or twice. I remember on one occasion seeing a boat coming from the sea to land their fish. I counted the fish they had in the boat; I don't recollect the number, but they were not all brought to the store. I made inquiry about that, and found that some of the fish had been taken to other merchants; but I never told Mr. Bruce about it.

13,159. Your settlements at Grutness are made every year?-Yes, once a year.

13,160. What is the usual period at which the settlements are completed?-In some years Mr. Bruce has begun towards the end of January; but last year, on account of him being out of the way, and me not having the accounts ready, the settlement went on as late as April.

13,161. Are the balances of these settlements always paid in cash?-Yes; they are readily paid. Mr. Bruce always did that.

13,162. Do you sometimes make advances in money to the men in the course of the summer?-I do not make these advances. Mr. Bruce sometimes does so and when at settlement some of them are in debt, he gives them money in advance. It very seldom happens that a man, even when he is in debt at settlement, will not ask him for some shillings, or for £2 or £3, and he always gives it to them, although they have no money to get, but have been in his debt for some time.

13,163. Do the men run accounts at your shop at Grutness as they do with other merchants, for the purpose of supplying their families and of getting supplies for the fishing?-Yes; what they get is chiefly meal and hooks, and things of that kind. We do not do much in dry goods.

13,164. Except outfits for the fishermen?-Yes, except what we cannot avoid giving them.

13,165. At what time of the year are your transactions with the fishermen largest?-In summer. While the fishing is going on, our place is very busy.

13,166. Is that the season when the meal of the fishermen themselves is exhausted?-Yes. I have seen in bad years, when there was a poor crop in Shetland, that they had to get meal supplied to them so early as February; but for 2 or 3 years back the crops have been better, and most of the men have carried on till April or May without requiring any advances of that kind.

13,167. Then your principal sales of meal are in the summer time?-Yes. We seldom do anything in it after the crop has been got in, except perhaps in the case of a person who has had a very poor crop, or no crop at all, and then we may give him some.

13,168. The quantity of meal which each man gets is entered in the ledger account in your book at the time that he gets it?-Yes; we just keep one ledger account. Sometimes the meal is marked on slips of paper or in a little book when I am out of the way, but I try to enter all these things in the ledger daily.

13,169. But they are all entered in the ledger account, although there may be some little delay in entering them?-Yes; every person has all his dealings entered in one account.

13,170. I understand, from what I saw in the books last night, and from what you mentioned to me, that you don't fix the price of the meal when it is given out?-No. I don't know yet the current price of bear meal for this year.

13,171. At first you only enter the quantity that is given out?- Yes.

13,172. And the price of the meal is fixed at settlement?-Yes, or some time before it, in order that I may get the account extended and added up.

13,173. In what way is the price of the meal fixed for the year?-It is generally taken on an average. In 1870, for instance, which is the last year for which there has been a settlement, meal was pretty low in [Page 326] the spring, varying from 18s. to 19s. per boll, and it rose during the season until it was somewhere about £1, if not above it. These changes frequently take place in the markets; and in fixing the price for a particular year, we generally make an average of the prices from first to last. If we were not to do that, then it might chance that the poorest people might get the whole of their meal at the dearest price, or when the price of meal was highest; but the way in which we take it makes it more equal over all.

13,174. Do you take the average according to the whole quantity of meal which you have sold?-Yes. We add up the total amount of meal sold, and the prices per boll which the meal has cost. I don't do that, but I believe that is the way in which it is done. It is generally done by Mr. Bruce himself, but I have a general understanding about it. For instance, if 20 bolls cost a certain figure, and 30 bolls cost another figure, if we add the amounts together, and take the average of the whole, we know what to sell it for. That is the way in which I would do it, and I believe it is the way in which it is done.

13,175. You first strike the average of the wholesale price, and then you allow a certain amount of profit upon that?-Yes. We include the expense of bringing it here, and then we make an average price accordingly.

13,176. Do some of the fishermen who deal at your shop have pass-books?-Very few; but I think a great many of them keep accounts themselves. I never saw many men settling who did not know what quantity of meal they had had.

13,177. Have you sometimes objected to the trouble of keeping pass-books for the men?-I don't recollect doing that, but I might have said that it was vexatious. I think there were two or three cases in which I was anxious that the people should have pass-books, and I began them with them. They came with them for a certain time, but then they would come without the book, and that confused me altogether. However, I never was very much asked to keep pass-books for them, and the fact is that it would have been almost out of my power to have attended to them. I am frequently out of the shop, and there are days when the men are coming ashore in large numbers, on which we could scarcely have time to mark down the meal.

13,178. Have you a fixed day in the week for giving out meal?- We have had a fixed day for some years back. Formerly we had no particular day, but we could not get them to understand the quantity of meal that was to be disposed of; and as there are some people to whom we only allow a certain quantity of meal per week, we have found it better to fix a particular day on which they are to come for it. People who have credit, or who have money in Mr. Bruce's hands, can come any day and get what they please, so that there are scarcely any days in the week when some is not given out; but the bulk is given out on a particular day, generally on a Friday.

13,179. You said just now that certain people had to be restricted to a given quantity of meal: are these people who are in debt?- Yes, and people who have been in debt. If it had not been for that restriction, there are some people on the estate who were in debt not long ago, and who would still have been in debt.

13,180. I thought it was because they were in debt that you restricted them?-No; we restricted some because they might have got into debt. We just gave them an allowance sufficient to support them through the week; but if we had given them more, or given them what they wanted, they would have taken double the quantity. These, however, are only a few individuals; in general the people are much more careful.

13,181. When you put parties on an allowance in that way, are they generally people who have had a balance against them at settlement the year before?-Generally they are. Some of them may have been in debt £8 or £10, and some as high as £20, and it is these people we put on an allowance in order to try to keep them going.

13,182. Do people who have no balance against them, and who can get an unlimited supply of meal, come to you on Fridays along with the rest?-Sometimes, and sometimes not; they just come as they choose.

13,183. Do they frequently not come to you at all for meal?- There are few of them who don't come for meal; but the greater part of the men at Dunrossness are generally in good circumstances, and have the command of money, and they generally buy their meal in Lerwick, or where they can get it cheapest.

13,184. In looking at your books last night, of course I did not find the prices for meal entered for the year 1871?-No.

13,185. But I saw that a lispund of bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 6d.?-I think the lispunds were 4s. 4d., and the quarter bolls 4s. 6d.

13,186. I noticed also that you sometimes charged what you call a lispund at a different price?-Yes; when we break a boll and sell it in quarters, we generally call it a lispund. Sometimes two or three men may get a boll and divide it among themselves, and it is generally charged to them as lispunds. That accounts for the lispund sometimes being charged at one price and sometimes at another.

13,187. When you do actually weigh out a quarter boll, you charge it at 4s. 6d.?-We seldom weigh that out. They take the boll and divide it among themselves; we seldom weigh it.

13,188. When the prices are not entered until the end of the season, how do you know whether to charge for a quarter boll or for a lispund, when you have put it in your book in the first instance as a lispund in both cases?-I had slips of paper or a little pass-book, and when we gave the meal out we had a line for the boll weight and a line for the lispund.

13,189. What is done with the lines?-We have some of them yet.

13,190. Do you file them?-No. We rule the small pass-book, and have a place in which we enter the lines, so many for lispunds, so many for bolls, and so many for quarter bolls, or whatever it may be.

13,191. Do you call that book the weighing-book?-Yes. It is generally only part of the meal that is entered there.

13,192. When you are putting in the prices at the end of the season do you go over all the entries in that book, and all the entries in the ledger account as well?-There is a great deal of the meal that we never keep any slips for, but just enter it direct into the ledger and we know which of these people are getting lispunds, and which are getting quarter bolls.

13,193. How do you know that?-At the beginning of the season we know quite well the people we are giving the meal to regularly, and those who just get it as they come.

13,194. Are there certain people who always get it in lispunds, and others who always get it in quarter bolls?-Yes.

13,195. And you know which is which?-Yes, because the people who get it regularly generally get it in lispunds; and sometimes if we give them a boll or half a boll, we mark it in the ledger at once.

13,196. Then you say that bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 4d. per lispund, and 4s. 6d. per quarter boll?-I think so.

13,197. And a lispund of oatmeal in 1870 was 5s. 6d.?-I think it was 22s. per boll, or 11s. 6d. per half boll, but I cannot say exactly. I think the price per lispund was 5s. 4d.

13,198. Then the entry which I noted of half a lispund of oatmeal in 1870-2s. 9d., would be for one half of a quarter boll?-I would suppose so; but I could not be sure about that unless I saw the entry.

13,199. But although you saw the entry, that would not help you?-It would not, but I could not say anything positive about that.

13,200. I received this piece of half-bleached cotton from you [showing], which you sell at 41/2d. a yard?-Yes.

13,201. Also this piece [showing], which you sell at 8d.?-Yes.

[Page 327]

13,202. And this piece of shirting [showing], which you sell at 1s.?-Yes.

13,203. These were all got from J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow?- Yes.

13,204. You sell your tobacco at 4d. per oz.?-Yes. We have two kinds, both sold at 4d. or 15d. per quarter lb.

13,205. Is that the price, whether it is entered in the account or sold for cash?-We very seldom sell for cash, but the price is the same in both cases.

13,206. Do you not take cash in the shop at all?-Yes, we take it if we get it; but we never have the chance of getting much of it. We get a few shillings occasionally. I don't think we get so much cash in the course of the year as will pay for postages.

13,207. That shows that your business is entirely for the supply of your own fishermen?-Entirely; and Mr. Bruce was never inclined to increase the trade as a shop trade. It is only to accommodate the fishermen that the things are kept.

13,208. That is to say, it is to accommodate those who do not have money with which to go elsewhere?-Yes. The men, on coming ashore, do not have time to go for lines and supplies to some other place; but it would be better for Mr. Bruce and the whole concern if there was no store there at all.

13,209. Do you mean to say that there is no profit on goods?- There is a profit on the goods, but the shop cannot pay the people that have to attend to it.

13,210. Are you paid by salary for your attention to the shop, or have you an interest in the sale of the goods?-I have no interest in the sale of the goods at all.

13,211. You sell your 2-lb. lines for 2s. 2d.?-Yes.

13,212. You sell your best sugar for 6d.?-Yes. During the summer, until the end of the season, it was 61/2d.: but now they get sugar of the same kind for 6d.

13,213. You purchase it from Greenock-two cwt. at a time?-I cannot exactly say where the last sugar came from. We had an agent in Glasgow to buy it from Greenock, and I understand he did so.

13,214. I observed an entry in December 1871-1 lb. sugar, 6d.: was that the best?-Yes. That was part of the last sugar we broke up.

13,215. That sugar was invoiced to you on 14th September 1871?-I think so; but the sugar had been higher in the course of the year.

13,216. What was the price at which sugar sold in your shop in 1870?-I think it was 61/2d., because the price of sugar was higher then. We had the finest sugar in 1870 as high as 7d., but never above that.

13,217. Do you keep only one kind of sugar?-No, we have more than one kind. It is not always alike. We have two different kinds of sugar.

13,218. I show you an invoice dated 12th May 1870, 1 cask sugar 2 1 25 18 2 1 7 at 42s. 6d. £4, 18s. 4d. Grutness shop debtor, £6, 1s. 41/4d.

At what price did you sell that sugar per lb.?-I think it was 61/2d.

13,219. What would be the freight of it from Greenock to here?-I could not say. I think Mr. Bruce keeps the freight accounts.

13,220. The sum of £6, 1s. 41/4d. is entered against the shop: is that the sum you were to realize by the sale of that sugar?-Yes.

13,221. Or does it merely indicate the price and the expenses, leaving you to fix the selling price yourself?-No; I think that is what was expected to be realized, and all expenses and inlake have to come off that. I think that is the net sum that must be realized after expenses and inlake.

13,222. Was there no more than that realized from the sugar contained in that invoice?-I could not say. I have not tried that particularly.

13,223. You have shown me two invoices of meal, one August 12th, and the other August 23d, 1870, from Jonathan Mess; one for 10 bolls oatmeal at 19s., and the other for 15 bolls at 17s. 9d.: I suppose the difference in price between these two is to be accounted for by the variation in the market price at that time?- Yes.

13,224. Was that meal which you got in August the dearest purchase of the year?-I don't remember.

[Produces invoices, showing the following purchases in 1870:- April 1, 25 bolls of oatmeal at 15s. " 1, 1 " " " 15s. " 22, 20 " " " 15s. 6d. June 3, 40 " " " 16s. 3d. " 14, 60 " " " 16s. 3d. Aug. 12, 10 " " " 19s. " 23, 15 " " " 17s. 9d.

Those are the prices at Aberdeen, exclusive of the cost for bags, which were charged separately.]

13,225. Was that the whole supply of meal for 1870?-Yes.

13,226. Had you a stock in hand at the beginning of the year?- None.

13,227. I think you said before that you had very few sales before April?-Yes; we do very little in meal before the fishing begins.

13,228. What quality of oatmeal is contained in these invoices?- It is meal ground entirely from Scotch home-grown oats. A great part of the meal that comes to this country is grown from foreign oats, and is not nearly so good, and it can be bought far cheaper.

13,229. Was the oatmeal of the best quality which you sold for 5s. 4d. per lispund, or 5s. 6d. per quarter boll?-Yes.

13,230. Do you know anything about the freights from Aberdeen?-I think Mr. Bruce will be better able to speak to that than I can.

13,231. You get your tobacco from Mr. Henry Christie, Edinburgh?-Yes.

13,232. Have you charge of the despatch of goods to Fair Isle when they are required?-Yes. When the vessel is going I supply the man's orders if the things are in Mr. Bruce's shop. At times we have to buy trifling things at other shops to supply the people with.

13,233. I noticed in your Fair Isle order-book an entry of 2 cwt. soap ordered from Hedly & Co., Newcastle, on 30th August 1871: at what price would that be retailed in Fair Isle?-At 6d. per lb.

13,234. Have you the invoice price of that?-No, not in 1871: but it was very similar to the price in 1870. We generally got the finest extra pale brown soap. [Produces invoice of 18th August 1870, showing the price of soap at that time to be 28s. per cwt.]

13,235. In the same order-book there is an entry of 4 cwt. soft sugar, ordered on 30th August 1871 for Fair Isle: at what rate would that be sold there?-If it is the same quality as ours, it would very likely be sold at 7d.; it would be at least a halfpenny dearer in Fair Isle, to cover the expense of freight.

13,236. But you don't know what was the quality of sugar that you sent to Fair Isle in August 1871?-No; we never break up the casks, but the quality ordered would be the same as the common brown which we order for ourselves.

13,237. Are the whole supplies to Fair Isle furnished by Mr. Bruce?-He generally furnishes what is ordered by the factor.

13,238. Do you know whether the factor has instructions to prevent any one else from trading with the inhabitants?-I don't think he has very positive instructions on the subject, because he could not prevent it. Mr. Bruce and I were there this year, and at that time two vessels came to trade. We saw them there, but could not prevent them. One pretty large sloop came down from Westray, belonging to a man called Luggie; and Rendall came also and traded during the whole night when I was asleep. We did not know that he was doing anything until he was under weigh, and when the vessel was off we saw that he had half-a-dozen cattle on board. Rendall goes from house to house [Page 328] on the island, and trades with the people just like a hawker.

13,239. Are the inhabitants prohibited from selling their cattle to Rendall, or to any other outside trader?-I think they were made aware that Mr. Bruce wanted the preference of the cattle from people who were in debt; but it is generally those individuals who are in debt who try to slip off their cattle in that way when they have a beast to dispose of. The people who are well to do on the island give Mr. Bruce the preference willingly.

13,240. Do you purchase cattle for Mr. Bruce?-Merely in the way of business. He was in the south when the public sales took place this year, and I and his grieve did purchase a few beasts for him. Our only object in doing so was to keep up the sales, so that the tenants might get a better price for their cattle.

13,241. Like other merchants in Shetland, does Mr. Bruce purchase a number of cattle for re-sale?-No: he never drives a trade of that kind. He has four cattle sales in the year, and he buys his cattle generally at these sales: which have been the means of keeping up the price of cattle in this end of the country ever since he began them.

13,242. Are cattle frequently taken by Mr. Bruce in liquidation of a debt due by a tenant?-Those tenants who are in debt, and who have cattle, are generally requested to bring them to a public sale.

13,243. When a man is in arrear, is he asked to do that?-Yes, when he has a beast to dispose of. These are Mr. Bruce's instructions.

13,244. Do you recollect one Thomas Wilson in Fair Isle being forbidden to sell a cow to Rendall?-The factor may have forbidden him, but, so far as I know, neither Mr. Bruce nor I did so.

13,245. Did you know of a cow of Thomas Wilson's being brought over and sold here for £4, 1s.?-Yes. I remember that transaction quite well, for he wanted me to buy the cow for Mr. Bruce; but I thought as he had come out of the island with her himself, the best way to give him a fair chance of selling his cow was to allow him to take her to the public sale and put her up to auction. He said he had had an offer of £5, 10s. from Rendall, but I said I did not think the animal was worth it.

13,246. Do you think he was really offered £5, 10s.?-It was £4, 10s. he said he was offered, and Mr. Bruce of Vinsgarth bought the cow for £4, 1s. at the sale.

13,247. Then he only lost 9s. by not taking Rendall's offer?-Yes; and I only had his own word for it, that he had been offered that.

13,248. Are you quite sure it was not £5, 10s. that Wilson said he had been offered?-Yes, I am sure it was £4, 10s.

13,249. Did she not look like a cow that anybody would offer £5, 10s. for?-No: she was sold too high as it was. I bought far cheaper cattle than that for Mr. Bruce. When the cow was sold Wilson was quite satisfied with the price

13,250. Would you be surprised to hear that the meal at Grutness is very often sold at 4s. a boll dearer than the same meal had been got for in Lerwick?-I would be rather surprised at that. It cannot be the same quality of meal if that is the case.

13,251. Do you say that it is not the case?-I cannot say what they may sell their meal for at Lerwick. The men sometimes go to Lerwick with money, and bargain to get goods under the market price. I have seen that done, and a handle of that may be made in Lerwick.

13,252. Are you aware whether the tenants on the Sumburgh estate have been offered leases and refused them?-Yes.

13,253. If they had got leases, would they have released them from the obligation to fish for their landlord?-I don't think Mr. Bruce would have given lease of that kind unless he had raised the rents on his property, because it is on account of the fishing that he does not raise them as it is.

13,254. Do you understand that the farms are let at a lower rent in consequence of the men being obliged to fish?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce would get higher rents if that was not the case.

13,255. Do you know whether these [showing paper headed, 'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate'] are the rules that were laid down for the management of the property?-Yes.

13,256. I believe very few of the men have accepted them?-None at all, to my knowledge.

13,257. But that contains no obligation about fishing?-No; but the thing in it which the men object to is the last paragraph: 'Subject to the above rules, the landlord reserves right to take into his own hands any part of his estate at any time on giving the tenant legal notice.' The men object to that, and I think I would do the same if I was taking a lease.

13,258. Do you understand that if the men agree to these regulations they would be free from the obligation to fish, or is that obligation referred to in the clause, 'The tenant shall be bound to observe the rules generally in force on the property for the time being?'-Of course it would be considered that they would still have to deliver their fish to Mr. Bruce at the current rate of the country; but although they have no leases, there is no man who has been annoyed on the property since the young laird had the management of it.

13,259. Have you sometimes heard the men complaining that they only got lispund weight?-Sometimes they did, but sometimes when we had to give them pecks we could not afford to give more.

13,260. When you sell pecks do you charge boll price?-No, we charge it little beyond that; but if we retail meal out in peck weight we lose a great deal.

13,261. Supposing 5s. 6d. was the quarter boll price in 1870, what would be the price of a peck?-We would not weigh it out in that way.

13,262. What would be the price of a peck if it was weighed out? Would it be 1s. 41/2d.?-It would be somewhere thereabout; but there is not so much inlake [sic] in weighing out small quantities of meal as there is in other things.

13,263. But if you were selling a peck of meal when the price was 5s. 6d. per quarter boll, what would you charge for the peck?-I suppose it would be 1s. 4d.

13,264. That would be a 1/2d. less than the quarter of quarter boll?-Yes, I think I would charge about that.

13,265. Then is there any foundation for the statement of the men, that they only got lispund weight at the boll price when they bought it in pecks?-There might be but I could not say as to that. It might have happened in some cases.

13,266. But that would be intended to cover the loss in weighing out?-If we take a sack of meal and weigh it out in lispunds and pecks, there is a great inlake [sic] and often when the meal comes wet there is some of it lost in transport, and when it lies long there is a great deal lost in the stores by vermin and in other ways, and the inlake [sic] must be met in some way.

13,267. Do you always read over the accounts of the men to them before settlement?-Generally.

13,268. Do you check them along with the men?-Yes; and Mr. Bruce never enters the amount of their accounts until the men are satisfied with them.

13,269. You hand in the total amount of a man's account at the shop to Mr. Bruce in order that it may be entered in Mr. Bruce's own ledger for settlement with the man?-Yes. When Mr. Bruce begins to settle, the Grutness ledger is brought up to the office, and the accounts are added up and squared off. Mr. Bruce never enters a shop account in his ledger until he and the men agree that it is correct. Some of the men also have accounts of their own, and can compare every article as it is entered in the shop ledger.

13,270. Do you know what arrangements are made with the men about boats and lines?-There is no arrangement. They furnish their boats and lines for themselves.

13,271. Is that so in all cases?-Yes. If a man is not able to buy his boat, or when he is shifting, he [Page 329] goes to Mr. Bruce before the fishing season begins and gets an order for a new boat.

13,272. Is he expected to pay that up by instalments?-He is not asked for it until he settles matters at the twelvemonth's end.

13,273. But is there a fixed instalment payable each year by a term of years, or is it paid just as the man finds himself able to do so?- There are some men with money to get who would be able to pay up the whole price of their boat at the first settlement, or the greater part of the price. That is seldom the case, but I have known it to happen. Generally they get twelve months' credit, and at the end of the twelve months any money that is due to them is entered the same as cash to account in Mr. Bruce's books. Then if a man cannot pay his way altogether, the balance is carried on perhaps for several years.

13,274. How long is it before a boat that is purchased in that way is usually paid for? would it be three or four years, or more or less?-Of course it depends very much on the circumstances of the men. If it is a poor man who has generally been behind, he may have a balance this year against him, which may run on for half a dozen years always increasing, and his share of the boat may be in that balance.

13,275. You mean that his share of the boat may be very long in being paid, while the other shares may be paid up sooner?-Yes; but the expense of a boat is not very great. I don't think one of the boats we have would cost more than £3 for the whole affair-that is, the material we give the order for.

13,276. Do you mean to say that a boat for the longline fishing costs only £3?-The material of it does.

13,277. Do you not use the six-oared boats here?-They are beginning to use the six-oared boats now, but they are very expensive. There are two or three now. I think there were some before Mr. Bruce came to the place, and now for the last two years their use is becoming general.

13,278. Has the fishing been carried on entirely with the small boats hitherto?-Yes; and I believe the small boats in general make most money.

13,279. How many men are in each of those small boats?- Generally three men, or two men and two boys.

13,280. That is a different system from what prevails in other parts of Shetland?-There is no difference, except that our men make more money than they generally do in the north fishing, and there are no men in Shetland who have to incur less expense for sea material.

13,281. Do you engage any fish-curers?-Yes, for Mr. Bruce.

13,282. Is the fee fixed at the end of the year according to the result of the fishing?-No; it is generally fixed at the beginning; but when a heavy fishing occurs, we generally advance their wages a little.

13,283. Do these men and boys generally run an account at the store?-Very little. I was observing from the books, that one man had as high a fee as £10 last year, and £12 the year before, and this year I think he is to have £10 again; and I don't think he has an account of £1 in the book, or anything near it. All that he gets is a mere trifle; a few shillings up or down.

13,284. Do most of the people engaged in the curing get a large part of their earnings in money?-Most of them do. There is seldom a year when we do not have people from other estates curing for us. We get them wherever we can; of course at as low a rate as possible. They sign an agreement for the season, and then they are paid according to that agreement generally at Martinmas.

13,285. Are the tenants upon the estate bound to send their sons to the curing?-They are not regularly bound, so far as I know; but it is understood in the same way as with the fishing, that if a man has a son, and we can afford to give him as much wages as another, we are to get the preference.

13,286. Have you interfered with any boys going to other engagements, in order that you might have them for the curing?- There was one case of that kind last year, with the son of William Goudie.

13,287. Had he got another engagement?-He was not engaged. His uncle is manager at the station, and he wrote me saying that he boy could get £3, 10s. of wages from another party, and that we would not get him again unless we gave him that wage. That was far higher for a boy's wage than we were in use to give, and I told the boy to tell his father to come over and speak to Mr. Bruce or me about it. The father came over and told Mr. Bruce and me that the boy had been offered £3, 10s. and we distinctly told him that if we could not afford to give him the same wages, he was at liberty to go to any one he chose. I also said we could hardly believe that he had got such a rise, but I told him, and Mr. Bruce also said, that if he could get 1s. more we did not want the boy, and he could engage him to any one he chose. The father went home, but he thought that perhaps we would be displeased if he gave the boy to another, and the boy went to the store. He went with his own accord, and by his father's instructions, and remained the whole season. He was a very good boy, and when he settled with Mr. Bruce he gave him the same wages that he had stated, £3, 10s. The father was a tenant of Mr. Bruce's, but at first we could scarcely believe that the boy had got the offer of such a rise.

13,288. Do you believe now that he got the offer of such a rise?- Yes. The man was one of those who were examined in Lerwick, and that was his declaration, and I believe it to be true. There have been other cases where boys have not been interfered with when they had engaged with another party. Last year one of Mr. Bruce's tenants had a boy who was engaged with another party to cure fish, and he would not come to us at all, and there was nothing said about it.

13,289. Is there any expectation on your part that the men whom you employ in the fishing shall come for goods to your shop?- No. We would rather be clear of it. The only trouble we have in the matter is to keep some of them from coming too much to us. They want more goods than we are inclined to give them. We never lay in goods to induce them to come, while those who have plenty of money go to other shops, and perhaps never come to us at all. We never ask them to do so.

13,290. Do you think you would get as many and as good men to fish for you if you did not have the shop at all?-I think so. The principal advantage which the shop is to them is that when they are coming ashore they require fishing material, such as hooks, twine, lines, and other things, at the place where they land, and before they go to sea again. We endeavour to get the best of that material for them, because there are always a great many complaints made in Shetland about the quality of that material. Two or three years ago, when I was south, I went to two or three of the principal makers, and got hooks made on purpose for our trade. We pay 41/2d. per 100 for them to the manufacturer above what other merchants pay; and the other merchants sell their hooks at 2s. 4d. per lb, while we sell them at 2s. 6d., being a loss to us of 21/2d. upon every 100 hooks that we sell, over what is charged by our neighbours.

13,291. That is to say, you get 21/2d. less profit than other merchants do?-Yes. I also made arrangements for lines and twine being made specially for us in the same way. For 2-lb. lines, although we try to keep a better article, we charge only 2s. 2d., while I find that other parties charge 2s. 3d. for the same thing; and our articles are better, because they are made specially for us.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JOHN BRUCE, jun., examined.

13,292. You are a son of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and you hold a tack from him of his property in Dunrossness?-Yes.

13,293. You have prepared a statement on the subject [Page 330] of this inquiry which you wish to appear as part of your evidence?-Yes.

[The witness put in the following statement.]

'The tenants on the property in this parish managed by me are at liberty to go to sea or to the Greenland or Faroe fishing, or to pursue any land occupation as they please; but if they remain at home and go to the home fishing, they are expected to deliver their fish to me and receive for it the full market value. This is one of the conditions on which they hold their farms and is, I consider, a beneficial rule for the fishermen. They must fish to some merchant, and as I give them as high a price as they could get from another, they are no losers, while I provide suitable curing and fishing stations, and these stations of mine are the most convenient places for them to deliver their fish.

'I am obliged to keep stores at some of the fishing stations for the convenience of the fishermen, to supply them with fishing gear, groceries, and other things which they may require. But no fisherman is expected or wished to take anything from these stores unless it is his wish to do so.

'Any fisherman can get the full value of his fishing in money from me at any time if he wishes it. I have never once refused to pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money. And, in fact, there are many cases in which fishermen take nothing whatever out of my stores, but receive the full value of their fishing in cash.

'I have also fishing for me fishermen who are not my tenants, and over whom I have no control; and these are treated in every respect the same as my own tenants.

'Prior to 1860 the tenants on the property managed by me were permitted to fish to any one they liked, and the people were very much in debt, both to the landlord and to the various merchants to whom they fished-and, for the most part, could not pay their rents.

'The debts to the landlord averaged two years' rents over the whole property.

'On account of the general state of bankruptcy, I was obliged to take the fishing into my own hands, and I consider the people now to be in a much more flourishing state.

'For the most part, fishermen are quite satisfied with having their accounts read over to them. But those fishermen who ask for copies of their accounts at settlement always get them, and the books are always open for them to refer to at any after-time.

'With regard to the prices charged at the stores, the goods I keep are in all cases of the best quality, and may be a little higher-priced than goods of the same description but of inferior quality, but I am not aware that anything is charged unreasonably high.

'NOTE.-The only grievance of which my tenants can complain is, that they are obliged to fish to me. This, I will endeavour to show, is no grievance at all, but an advantage to the fishermen.

'In looking over the whole of Shetland, it will be found that the most prosperous districts are those under the direct management of the landlords.

'Many of the fishermen in this country (as indeed many of the poorer classes everywhere) are unable, from want of thrift and care to manage their own matters in a satisfactory manner, and require to be thought for and acted for, and generally treated like children, and are much better off under the management of a landlord who has an interest in their welfare, than they would be if in the hands of a merchant whose only object was to make a profit out of them.

'A merchant who has no control over the fishermen, may, in some cases wish to get them and keep them in his debt, in order to secure their custom; but the case of a landlord also a merchant is quite different. It is his interest to have a prosperous, thrifty, and independent tenantry; and he will use his utmost endeavour to keep them out of debt, and to encourage saving habits.

'I can see no reason why the fact of a man being a landlord should prevent him from being also a merchant and fish-curer; and if so, why he should not secure a lot of good fishermen by making it one of the conditions of occupancy by his tenants, that if fishermen they shall fish to him.

'The very fact of a landlord being a fish-curer would lead up to this, for tenants would naturally wish to stand well with their landlord, and other conditions being equal, would prefer to give him their fish.

'The same thing is done everywhere else. In Orkney, in many estates, the tenants are obliged to manufacture a certain quantity of kelp, and to deliver it to the landlord at a certain fixed price, which leaves the landlord a large profit.

'In many counties in England and Scotland, farmers are required to send their grain to mills belonging to landlords, and to perform certain services, such as cartage for the landlord, either free or at a low fixed rate. I can see no greater hardship in a Shetland landlord letting his farms to tenants who will fish to him, than in a south-country manufacturer letting his cottages to tenants who will work to him.

'There are, no doubt, many things in the Shetland system of trade which might be improved; but the system has been of long growth, and is so engrained in the minds of the people, that any change must be very gradual; a sudden and sweeping change to complete free-trade principles and ready-money payments would not suit the people, but would produce endless confusion, hardship, and increased pauperism.

'Under the present system, our small rentals and large population, our poor-rates are very high. But the landlords support a great many families which would otherwise be thrown on the rates.

'It is no uncommon thing, where a family is deprived of its breadwinner, for the landlord to support the family till the younger members grow up, and are abler to provide for themselves, and repay the landlord's advances.

'Abolish the present system suddenly, and I am afraid our poor-rates would become unbearable, and nothing would save the country but depopulation.

'It has never been the habit in Shetland to fix the price to be paid for the fish till after the fishing is over. Complaints have been made against this, and I do not defend the practice, but I believe it to be popular with fishermen; and I believe, on the whole, they receive more money for their fish under the present practice they would if an engagement at a fixed price was always entered into at the commencement of the season.

'If you ask a fisherman if he has a grievance, he will be sure to try and find one for you; but I do not believe that the respectable part of my tenants find it to be any grievance their being obliged to fish to me.*

[Page 331]

13,294. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.

13,295. Has he explained correctly, so far as you have heard, the manner in which the business is carried on at Grutness?-His statement was substantially correct; but I could satisfy you on some of the points that he did not know about.

13,296. There was a question asked about a Thomas Aitken, whether he had signed any special obligation with regard to fishing?-I am not aware that he ever did. It would not be usual to make him sign any agreement with regard to that.

13,297. Was there any agreement signed with regard to the fishing when you were in partnership with Mr. Grierson?-None that I am aware of with regard to the men, and I know of no special agreement with Thomas Aitken.

13,298. Was there any agreement with any of the men?-No. The only persons who sign agreements are fishermen who do not belong to the property I manage

13,299. Are agreements signed with them?-Yes. In the case of a man coming to me for an advance of money, I occasionally make him sign an agreement to fish for the rising year, in case he may take the advance of money from me and then go somewhere else.

13,300. Do men from adjacent properties sometimes come to you for an advance in that way?-Yes.

13,301. Do they get advances from you in money or in supplies?- In money or in goods, but generally in money; and in these cases agreements are sometimes written out.

13,302. Do you remember James Brown being told by you the reason why his farm was advertised to be let?-Yes; but I am not very clear about the time.

13,303. Was it about ten or twelve years ago?-I don't think it was so long ago as that. There were two men, James Brown and William Irvine, at Toab; I either advertised their farms, or threatened to advertise them.

13,304. For what reason did you do that?-I am not very sure that I can recollect. I don't think it was for selling fish. I think it was for breaking some rule.

13,305. Was it not because he (Brown) had sold some fish to Robert Leslie, Messrs. Hay's factor?-I think not. I think it was for declining to assist to cure some fish in spring; but if James Brown swears it was for selling fish, that may have been the case.

13,306. In what way do you fix the average price of meal for a year?-We take what other people are charging in Lerwick and elsewhere; and after considering the quality of the meal, and our extra expense upon it, we charge what we think it can reasonably bring, without any regard to the cost price of it.

13,307. Do you not take the cost price into consideration at all?- Of course it is an element, but not the principal element, in fixing the price.

13,308. You think you are entitled at Grutness to put an additional charge on the meal above what it is in Lerwick, in respect of the risk and expense of carriage?-Yes. Then the price at Lerwick, is a cash price always, while at Grutness it is a credit price.

13,309. Do you mean that at Grutness the settlement for the meal sold does not take place until the end of the year?-Yes; that is one reason why the meal is a little dearer at Grutness than it is at Lerwick, because when a man goes to Lerwick he goes with the money in his hand, and pays for the meal at the time as a rule.

13,310. But at Grutness it is usually settled for as against fish?- Yes; but very often it is supplied long before the fish are there to meet it.

13,311. Mr. Irvine has said the supplies generally begin in April, and the fish begin to be caught in April or May?-Yes; the summer fishing begins about 15th May.

13,312. The fish are not paid for either until the following spring?-No.

13,313. So that the fish are bought at a credit price, and the meal is sold at a credit price?-Yes; when the accounts are balanced.

13,314. But the fish with which the meal is really paid for are in your hands all the time?-They may or they may not be.

13,315. Are they not in your hands from the time they are caught?-Yes; but a man may have money to his credit with me, or he may be in debt when he gets the meal.

13,316. But the fish are not paid for to the fisherman at a credit price?-No.

13,317. Then why should the meal be charged a credit price any more than the fish?-Perhaps there is no good reason for it. The reason would only hold good when the man is in debt.

13,318. Are the men as often in debt as not?-No. My people are pretty free from debt. I should say that not over one in six or seven is in debt.

13,319. What is the freight of meal from Lerwick?-I think it is 11d. per boll in the steamer from Aberdeen to Lerwick; 1d. for landing at Lerwick; 4d. from Lerwick to Grutness by the packet; and 1d. for landing at Grutness.

13,320. Do you sometimes bring your meal direct from Aberdeen to Grutness by a packet?-I have once done so. I had a vessel coming up at any rate, and she took load of meal on board.

13,321. You say in your statement that you have never refused to pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money: I presume that means at settlement?-Yes, at settlement, or if wanted before.

13,322. If a man applies for money before settlement, do you consider how much is reasonably due to him at that period of the year?-If he is a good man, I would give him any sum he asked for. If he was a man I was doubtful of, I would only give him the amount he had at his credit, but he might get that full amount at whatever time he asked for it.

13,323. In these circumstances, is there any reason for the complaint of the men, that they cannot get their money until settling time?-There is none.

13,324. The settlement last year was protracted as late as April: is that usual?-It is not usually so late as April. The settlements are generally finished by March.

13,325. Can you suggest any reason why the settlements with the men in Shetland should not generally be at an earlier period than that?-It is merely a matter of convenience. The settlements could be earlier if the men so wished it; but I don't know that it would do any good although they were earlier.

13,326. With regard to Fair Isle, is there a standing prohibition against other traders dealing with the inhabitants [Page 332] there?-To a certain extent there is. I don't object to people trading there if they confine themselves to hosiery and eggs, and that sort of thing; but what I am afraid of is, that persons may go there and buy fish.

13,327. The inhabitants there are under an obligation, as a condition of their tenure, to fish for you?-Yes.

13,328. As the landlord, do you place a restriction upon the sale of their cattle also?-Yes, there is a rule to that effect, but it is a very lax one.

13,329. Is it not virtually the result of the obligation to fish or to sell cattle to the proprietor alone, that the proprietor has the power of fixing the price, and that the tenant has no option at all with regard to that in either case?-That is not the result. Even although the proprietor buys the cattle and prevents any one else from competing with him, still he respects public opinion so far, that he gives the full value for the animal.

13,330. Then public opinion is the only check upon the proprietor, and of course his own sense of right?-That is his only check.

13,331. How do you ascertain the current price of fish, according to which you pay your men at the end of the year?-There is an understanding among the principal fish-curers with regard to that.

13,332. Is there a consultation upon the subject?-Yes, either directly or indirectly, and they all pay the same.

13,333. Do you send your fish Scotland generally, or do you send them abroad?-I send them principally to Ireland. Our fishing here is principally for saith, which is not carried on to any great extent in any part of the country except in this parish; and that kind of fish only finds a market in Ireland.

13,334. Did you pay as high a price for saith last year as Mr. Smith and Mr. Tulloch?-No. I have not settled yet for last year.

13,335. But you did not get such a price for your saith last year as would justify you in paying so high a rate?-I did not; and I can explain the reason. These small curers send their fish away in retail lots, and realize a price for them that no large curer can get.

13,336. Have the small curers more trouble in selling?-They have much more trouble; but they do the work themselves, and they don't take that into account.

13,337. Does that not show that fishermen curing on a small scale on their own behalf might realize higher prices if they could cure equally well with the large curers?-Not if all the fishermen were on that footing. Unless they entered into some sort of co-operation, they could not get their fish sent to market at all.

13,338. Would they not be likely to sell them through travellers coming up for the purpose of buying fish?-Yes.

13,339. The returns with which you are to furnish me will apply to the year 1870, as you have not yet settled for the year 1871?-Yes.

*Mr Bruce afterwards put in the following additional statement:- I may here mention that stores such as I keep at the stations for the convenience of the fishermen do not pay as a speculation, though we could not very well carry on the business without them. For instance, the store at Grutness, some of the accounts of which you examined, would show a balance-sheet thus- Gross value of goods charged against the shop at retail prices during season 1870 £410 11 21/2 Cost value of goods at the various markets. £313 0 10 Freights on do. 28 16 4 12 tons coals at 21s. allowed to storekeeper; say fire and light 15 0 0 Wages to storekeeper-I pay £70 say for store 40 0 0 Nominal profit, say 13 14 0 £410 11 21/2

But against this nominal profit has to be placed rent of shop, and house occupied by storekeeper, incidents such as stationery, wrapping paper, twine, furniture, etc., interest on capital invested in goods, loss in retailing goods, bad debts, and loss by deterioration of goods on hand. These figures are not supposed to be exactly correct, but they are substantially so, and at all events are near enough to show that these stores, as managed by me, do not pay, and would certainly never be kept with a view to profit were they not required as a matter of convenience. In a place like Fair Isle, with a population of only 226, there is only room for one store. As I have to keep a store there for the convenience of the islanders, I discourage them from trading with any one else, as the only chance to make my store pay is to get the whole or the greater part of their custom. Though there is a rule that the islanders shall not trade with others, I have never enforced this rule where I believed the parties visiting the island did not attempt to buy fish-in fact, in many cases I have given liberty to parties to trade with the islanders; and the only case in which I have enforced the rule, as in the case of a man from Orkney who, I had evidence to prove, stole my fish from the station at night, and shipped it on board of his vessel. I have no poor-rates and no paupers in Fair Isle, and I have never evicted a tenant. If a widow or other poor person can't pay their rents they sit rent free, and get help from their friends, and my manager has orders to see that no one starves. I may mention that I have some property of my own in Sandwick parish where the tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and they do not fish for me; but they pay good rents, and are not in arrears. I also manage a property in the parish of Cunningsburgh belonging to my father. It consists of 69 holdings, at a rental of £194, 19s. 7d. and the arrears of rent due on the property when I took the management of it in 1869 amounted to £487 10 3 Since then I have received payment of £97 9 21/2 And have written off in compromise with tenants deeply in debt, sums to the amount of 63 11 7 Thereby reducing the balance to 326 9 5 £487 10 3

These tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and none of them fish to me. I have not yet evicted any tenant, and if they go on as they are doing I may have to make no change; but should they fail to pay their rents as in times past, I must either evict the non-payers, or take the fishing into my own hands.

JOHN BRUCE, jun. SUMBURGH, SHETLAND, 1<st. Feby>. 1872.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ROBERT HENDERSON (recalled), examined.

13,340. I understand you want to make some explanation of your previous evidence?-Yes. I said that when we bought fish we paid for them when they were delivered. As a rule we do, and any party who wishes to be paid at once can be paid at once; but sometimes, when a few men are going in one boat, they wish merely to have the weight of the fish marked, and then have it squared off perhaps in a month or two or at the end of the fishing.

13,341. You are speaking now of the winter and spring fish?- Yes.

13,342. So that you have some accounts for fish?-Yes.

13,343. And these may be liquidated partly by the men taking goods?-Yes, just as they like.

13,344. In these cases, is there a ledger account with the goods on the one side and the fish on the other?-Yes, if the men choose to have it so; but it is entirely at their own option whether they are to be paid at once or whether the fish are to be put into the account.

13,345. What may be the amount of these accounts generally?- Will they be as much as £2 or £3?-Yes; sometimes £4 or £5.

13,346. In some of these cases no cash may pass at all?-As a rule, the men wish, to have the cash placed to the credit of their private accounts; but if they wish cash at once they can get it.

13,347. Will you have 20 or 30 of these accounts in a year?-No. There may be four or five accounts for crews in that way, but they are the exception. As a rule, we pay for the fish when we receive them.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, OGILVY JAMIESON, examined.

13,348. You are shopkeeper at Mr. Grierson's shop at Quendale?-I am.

13,349. Do you also act as factor or overseer on his property?- Generally I do.

13,350. Do you keep all the books connected with the fish-curing and shop business?-Yes.

13,351. How many fishermen are employed by Grierson?- Perhaps from 80 to 100 hands, men and boys.

13,352. How many do you employ in the curing?-Generally 14 or 16.

13,353. When you take on a boy as a beach boy, is he paid by a fee?-Yes.

13,354. That is settled like the fishermen's accounts at the end of the season?-Generally; but sometimes they want to know their wages before and they are told what they are.

13,355. Do you ever pay these fees as advances, or during the course of the season?-Generally, when they require anything, they get it from the shop, and the balance is paid in cash, or the whole amount is paid in cash if they have taken no advances.

13,356. I suppose a beach boy, or one employed in the fish-curing, generally begins by opening an account and taking out supplies?- Sometimes they do, and sometimes not. Some of them have not taken out more than perhaps 2s. during the whole season.

13,357. Do three-fourths of them run up accounts?-They generally do to a small extent, but not to the full amount of their wages.

13,358. What is the average fee for a boy?-It is generally 30s. for the first year, and it is advanced according as they are found to be worth it. 50s. was the highest we paid the boys this year.

13,359. Will a boy ever have 10s. or £1 to get at the end of the year?-Yes, and sometimes more. I should wish to state that we had a boy last-indeed we have had him for two years-over whom we have no control. Last year he had 25s., and in the present year he was engaged for 27s. but I paid him 30s.

13,360. I understand there are some of the boys over whom you have control?-Yes.

13,361. That is to say, they are the sons of tenants?-Yes; and it is one of the conditions of their holdings, that they have to supply boys when they have them suitable for the purpose.

13,362. That is one of the conditions, in the same way as it is a condition of their holdings, that if the tenants themselves engage in ling fishing at all, they shall fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.

13,363. Have you known any cases of boys engaged to other employers who have been required by Mr. Grierson, or by you on his behalf, to give up that engagement and come to you to work at the beach?-There has been no case of that kind, to my knowledge.

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13,364. Do you know James Jamieson at Berlin?-I do.

13,365. Had he a son, a boy of thirteen, employed with you lately?-Yes, last year.

13,366. Are you aware that he had previously been engaged as a servant to a neighbouring farmer, and that Mr. Grierson required him to come and work at fish-curing?-I did not know that he was engaged at all.

13,367. Who engaged him for the curing?-I did.

13,368. Did he not state to you that he was already engaged to another master?-Not that I remember of.

13,369. Do you know James Brown, Millpond?-Yes.

13,370. Is he an elderly man now?-Yes.

13,371. Is he engaged at the fishing?-No.

13,372. Do you know whether he had to pay £1 of liberty money?-He has not done so within the last year or two, to my knowledge; but I think he paid it in 1869. However, I am not quite clear about that. I know that I got notice about the liberty money, and I think either he or his son went to Lerwick to Mr. Grierson about it.

13,373. Did he pay it?-I cannot say.

13,374. Was he at that time an old man, and fishing with two or three other old men, but not actively engaged in the summer fishing?-He was not fishing at all, so far as I know.

13,375. Then why had he to pay liberty money?-I don't know. Perhaps it may have been on account of his son, but I cannot say.

13,376. Would any transaction of that kind take place with Mr. Grierson and not with you?-It might.

13,377. Do you know Charles Eunson?-Yes.

13,378. Had he to pay liberty money in 1867?-I cannot say; I have only been three years in Mr. Grierson's employ,

13,379. Is Brough on the Quendale estate?-Yes.

13,380. Do you know James Shewan, who lives on the Brough property?-Yes.

13,381. Whom did he fish for last year?-I think he cured fish for himself. He was fishing at Scatness, and I think he delivered his fish to Hay & Co.; but I am not sure.

13,382. Had he to pay £1 of liberty money at last settlement?- Yes.

13,383. Was that in January 1872?-I think it was before January; but he paid it at the settlement.

13,384. Have there been other cases of liberty money being exacted and paid in 1871 and 1872?-There has been one other case besides Shewan's.

13,385. Why did these men choose to pay the fine rather than to deliver their fish to you?-I cannot say. One man who pays it does not fish at all, and I suppose they think they get value for it, or else they would not pay it.

13,386. Who pays it and does not fish?-William Gilbertson, the Mails.

13,387. You have not got the books connected with the fishing business in your possession at present?-No; they are all in Lerwick at present, except one daybook.

13,388. I noticed an entry in one of your books this morning, of one boll meal sold on 2d June 1870 at 16s. 6d.?-Yes, that was the price at that time.

13,389. Did the price vary much during that year?-Very considerably.

13,390. What would you consider a fair average of the price for that year?-I think it was from 17s. 6d. to 22s. or 23s. per boll, so far as I remember.

13,391. Do you think 22s. or 23s. was the highest price during the year?-I think so; but I am merely speaking from recollection.

13,392. What is the price of a 2 lb. line at your shop?-2s. 3d.; 21/4 lbs. is 2s. 6d.; 13/4 lbs, 2s.; and 11/2 lbs, 1s. 9d.

13,393. How many kinds of tea do you keep?-Three kinds, which we sell at 8d., 9d., and 10d.

13,394. How many kinds of sugar?-Three kinds, which we sell at 5d., 6d., and 61/2d.

13,395. What is the price of your tobacco?-1s. and 1s. 2d. per quarter for mid and small tobacco. We sell it at 31/2d. and 4d. per ounce for single ounces and 6d. and 7d. for two ounces.

13,396. Do your men own their own boats?-Yes, entirely.

13,397. You not hire out any boats?-Not any.

13,398. Do you sell the boats to them?-No; they buy them for themselves, or Mr. Grierson buys them for them.

13,399. Do you make an advance to them for the purchase of boats?-Yes; we generally give a line as security to any person supplying boats to the men.

13,400. Does the builder obtain the payment from you?-Yes. He is paid direct by us in cash.

13,401. Do you get repayment from the fishermen by instalments?-Not by instalments; they sometimes pay it all up in one year, but sometimes when a man is in arrears it runs over a good many years before it is paid. The sum he is due for his boat is included along with the rest of his dealings.

13,402. Is it the small boats that are used at Quendale?-No; we have mostly large boats now, which cost about £20.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.

13,403. You keep the post office at Virkie near Sumburgh?-I do. I am a tailor to trade.

13,404. You are aware that the men in your neighbourhood are under an obligation to fish for the tacksman of the estate and that many of them deal at the shop at Grutness?-Yes.

13,405. I presume there is no obligation upon them to purchase their goods at that shop?-I suppose not, unless circumstances compel them to do so.

13,406. What circumstances compel them?-There are many of them who have not got cash with which to go to any other place.

13,407. Have you sometimes purchased goods at the Grutness store yourself?-I have occasionally.

13,408. Did you find the quality and the price good and reasonable?-The price was generally higher than I could purchase the goods for at any other place, and the quality was sometimes as good and sometimes not so good. About a year ago there was cotton at Grutness at 16d. a yard; but it had been purchased during the time of the American War, when the price was high, and the price was kept up still. I have some goods that were given to me to supply Mr. Bruce's fishermen with including some of that cotton, and I have never been told to reduce the price.

13,409. Were you entrusted with that cotton to sell it?-Yes. I got about £50 worth of cloth and furnishings about five years age to supply to such tenants as had not the means to go to any other place; and although the prices of cotton and wincies fluctuated since I have continued to sell at the same price. Of course most of it is gone now.

13,410. But you have been selling it at that advanced price?-Yes. The fishermen have taken it who had no other way of getting it.

13,411. Have they taken it on credit?-Yes; most of it has been given on credit. There were very few who have taken any of it except those who had no money to go to any other place.

13,412. If they had had money, would they have been able to get exactly the same article at a cheaper rate?-The cloth was pretty moderate, because, when I brought it from Grutness, Mr. Bruce asked me how it would range with the cloth Mr. Henderson had. I told him it was dearer, and he said he would take off some of the price of it, for he meant to give the fishermen the same advantage which they got in another shop; and the three pieces of cloth which I got were reduced 1s. upon each yard. In that case no one complained about the price of the cloth, only the furnishings were higher.

[Page 334]

13,413. Is there any other article with regard to the price and quality of which you can speak?-I have not dealt in Grutness for some time, because I generally had money, and I bought my goods elsewhere, where might get them cheaper. I got most of them from Mr. Henderson, and some I got from Lerwick.

13,414. Do you sometimes buy from Hay & Co.'s, shop at Dunrossness?-Yes,

13,415. Are some things cheaper there than at Grutness?-Some things are and other things are much about the same.

13,416. What things are cheaper?-Tea and sugar, and such things as these.

13,417. Is Hay & Co.'s shop nearer to you than Grutness?-Yes.

13,418. Is it nearer to most of the people than Grutness?-Yes. Grutness is rather out of the way.

13,419. Do you know anything about a meeting that was held at Grutness, some time ago?-I know there was a meeting of fishermen held at the schoolhouse but I was not there. After the meeting several of the men came to my house on their way home, and spoke about what had taken place. They were generally dissatisfied with the way in which the meeting had been conducted.

13,420. What was the occasion of the meeting?-It was in order that they might lay their grievances before the commissioner at Lerwick. I believe one of the men actually went there.

13,421. Did you understand that the others were unwilling or afraid to go?-I understood, from what they said, that they were unwilling, for fear of offending their masters. They told me that at the time.

13,422. What did they say?-They accused some of their number of cowardice. Some were frightened for one thing, and some for another.

13,423. What were they afraid of?-Just of offending their masters; that was their principal idea. They were afraid they might be warned.

13,424. What was the complaint they had to make?-I believe their principal complaint was about the bondage which they are under.

13,425. Do you think they have not so much to say about being settled with only once a year?-Of course that was discussed too and they thought it was not right. They thought the settlement was made too late in the year. That was one of their objections; but the principal thing was, that they wished their liberty to sell their produce to any person who would pay the best price for it.

13,426. Have you lived in Dunrossness all your life?-I have been in Dunrossness all my life except twelve years, when I was south.

13,427. Was your father a farmer or crofter and fisherman in Dunrossness?-Yes.

13,428. Before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his own hands, I believe, the tenants were free?-No; the fishermen were bound some forty-three years ago. My father held a croft then on the estate of Brough, of which Mrs. Sinclair was proprietor, and she bound him over to fish for Mr. Bruce at that time, although she did not take the fishing herself. That fishing came to be the most ruinous concern that ever happened to my family, because it brought my father into debt that he might otherwise have been clear of.

13,429. How did it bring him into debt?-Because the fish were not managed properly, and of course they came to be sold as bad fish, and the men got nothing for them, or next to nothing. I heard my father say that they got 3s. 11d. for dry fish in the last year of the fishing, and they had to pay for salt and cure out of that.

13,430. Could a free man, at that time have got more?-A free man was getting from £9 to £10 a ton; and things came to such a pass that the people got desperate. There were poor years at the same time, and the men applied to their landlord, and got their liberty on condition of paying 15s. a head of liberty money. That was kept on until a few years ago, and then it was put into the rent again.

13,431. But it has only been since 1860 that the men have been bound again to fish in this district for their landlord; they were free before that time?-Yes, they were free for about twenty years. Of course I have always been a free man, because I have not been a fisherman.

13,432. Have you known many men in your district being warned in consequence of fishing for others than their landlord?-I have not known many.

13,433. Have you known men who would have fished for others if they had not been afraid of being warned?-I suppose they would have preferred that but warning comes to be a very serious thing here. In the south a man can shift from town to town and get employment: but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there, either for love or money.

13,434. Do you know of any case where compulsion has been used to oblige any of the men to deal at any of the stores in the district?-I cannot say that I have.

13,435. Do the men never get a hint to that effect?-No; but I suppose they are obliged to go through necessity, because they have no money with which to go anywhere else.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GEORGE M'LACHLAN, examined.

13,436. Are you the principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh Lighthouse?-I am.

13,437. Where do you get the supplies for your house?-I get most of them from Aberdeen and Granton.

13,438. Do you purchase them yourself?-Yes.

13,439. They are not supplied by the Commissioners?-no.

13,440. Have you got any supplies at the neighbouring shops?-I have got very little from Grutness.

13,441. Have you got any from Hay & Co.'s shop, from Quendale?-No. I opened an account with Mr. Henderson after I came; but I have only been here since 1st. July.

13,442. Have you found Mr. Henderson's goods reasonable in price?-Quite reasonable in price, and good in quality.

13,443. How far is his shop from you?-About six or six and a half miles.

13,444. How far is Grutness from you?-About one and a quarter mile, or a little more.

13,445. How far is Hay & Co.'s shop?-About two and a quarter miles.

13,446. How far is Quendale from you?-I think about four miles.

13,447. Why do you go so far as Mr Henderson's or Aberdeen, or Granton for your supplies?-I opened an account at Mr Henderson's shop, because I could get anything there that I wished, and because Mr. Henderson was highly recommended to me before I came to the country at all.

13,448. Have you found the supplies at Grutness to be expensive?-I never bought much there.

13,449. Did you find that that shop was understood in the neighbourhood to be an expensive one?-I have heard people say so.

13,450. Was that the reason why you did not get your goods there?-Not particularly. One reason was because it was dear, and another reason was that they cannot supply us with general articles such as we want. I thought it was much better to open an account with man who was reasonable in his charges, or who at least was recommended to me as such, and a man who could supply me with anything I wanted.

13,451. What have you bought at Grutness or at the other shops?- Sometimes I have bought small things such as tobacco, but my wife has got most of the things we required.

13,452. Have you bought any tobacco at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes. I found it to be of ordinary quality. I think [Page 335] the price was 4s. 4d. per lb., as far as I can recollect but I am not quite sure, because I never bought much there. I could have got tobacco of about the same quality at Mr. Henderson's for 3s. 6d. I now produce a piece of Mr. Henderson's very good tobacco.,

13,453. Have you bought tobacco at Grutness also?-Only very little. I don't like the sort of tobacco that is kept there. There are two kinds kept at Grutness: but the best quality is too small in twist for smoking, and I don't care about teasing it up.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, LAWRENCE GARRIOCK, examined.

13,454. Are you a fisherman at Scatness?-I am.

13,455. Are you bound to fish for anybody?-No. I have always been at liberty. I am on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, and I generally fish for Hay & Co.

13,456. They are the factors on the estate?-Yes.

13,457. Do you deal at their shop?-Yes, occasionally, when I like.

13,458. Do you pay your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.

13,459. Does he come down to settle at Dunrossness every year?- Yes. He settles in a room above the shop at Laighness.

13,460. Do you go through the shop to it?-Yes.

13,461. Have you generally money to receive at settlement?-I have had a little to receive for some years; but I run an account at the shop, and I am almost always in debt.

13,462. If you have got money to receive, is it paid to you in cash?-Yes. I am paid in cash what is due.

13,463. If there is anything due to you, do they ask you, as you come through the shop, if you want any goods?-No, that is left to my own choice.

13,464. But it would be quite fair to ask?-Yes, but they don't do it.

13,465. Are you satisfied with the quality of the goods you get there?-Yes. I never had any reason to complain about the quality, and the price is something similar to what I could get them for at other places.

13,466. At Grutness, for instance?-I never had much dealings there. It lies rather out of my way.

13,467. Is Hay & Co.'s shop the most convenient shop for you?- Yes.

13,468. Have you ever dealt at Gavin Henderson's shop?-Yes, I have tried it too.

13,469. Are not his goods cheaper than Hay & Co.'s?-No; they are much about the same. I could not say there was much difference. I have bought meal, cottons, and tobacco from him, land the difference in price was not worth mentioning.

13,470. Do you keep a pass-book at Hay & Co.'s?-No. I just trust to those who are serving me.

13,471. Were you at a meeting of fishermen held at Scatness a few weeks ago?-I was.

13,472. What was the object of the meeting?-I could scarcely say. The men assembled on purpose to give you (the Commissioner) some information about how they were situated, as you had come to Shetland to inquire into the matter; but when they were met together, they appeared to be frightened to say anything at all. Therefore the meeting was broken up, and every man went home.

13,473. How did it appear that they were frightened?-By the way in which they behaved at the meeting. There was a paper drawn up, and the men were to sign their names to it, but none of them would sign their names except about a dozen or so. The rest appeared to be very much frightened, and I told them so.

13,474. What were they frightened of?-They did not say, at least I did not hear them; but it was supposed they were frightened for the proprietor giving them their warning.

13,475. If they did not say it, how did you know they were frightened for that?-Because none of them would sign their names to the paper which was to be sent to you.

13,476. They might not have had any grievance all?-They might not; but all the men who were present wished to be at liberty to fish, and they were frightened to sign the paper saying that they wanted that. At least they appeared to be so, from not putting down their names.

13,477. Did not some of the men who were present come to Lerwick?-Yes. One man went, and some others went when they were summoned.

13,478. How did you happen to be at the meeting when you were not a bound man?-I went to see whether anything would be said about the right of the landlord to take one-third of the whales which are driven ashore. Occasionally whales are driven in from the sea; and I have seen us commencing at six o'clock on summer morning and working till late in the afternoon, or perhaps six at night, in getting them secured. Then, when the whales were flinched, the proprietor came in and took away one-third of the proceeds, and we were rather dissatisfied about that.

13,479. Do you think you ought to have got the whole?-Yes.

13,480. Did you not flinch the whales upon his shore?-Yes, but below high-water mark.

13,481. Has it not been always the custom in Shetland that the proprietor gets one-third of the blubber?-It has been so all my time.

13,482. Why do you submit that if it is not right?-The way we submit to it is because they have told us that if we carried off all the blubber they would raise the rent of the land we were labouring.

13,483. Who has told you that?-It has been said all my time.

13,484. Has any proprietor ever told you that?-There are men who have asked it and striven for it in my time. I have never done it myself, although I was very much dissatisfied about it: but the poor men are frightened to presume any further, for fear of the land being further burdened upon them, and it is so much burdened just now that we can scarcely pay for it.

Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ARTHUR IRVINE, examined.

13,485. Are you a fisherman at Garthbanks, on the Quendale estate?-I am.

13,486. You have handed in to me a document signed by 28 fishermen on the Quendale property, stating that 'We, the undersigned, hereby certify that we have been honourably dealt with by Andrew J. Grierson, Esq. of Quendale, our present landlord and fish-merchant; and it is our desire to continue with him as our fish-merchant, and resolve that no other fish-curer in Shetland will get our fish until he refuses to take them?'-Yes.

13,487. How long have you fished for Mr. Grierson?-About 13 years.

13,488. Have you always sold your fish to him?-Yes.

13,489. And have you always got a fair price for them?-I have got the currency of the country.

13,490. Could you have got a higher price anywhere else in the district?-Not in our district, that I know of.

13,491. How far do you live from the place where the fish are delivered?-I live close to it. The curing place is about 50 yards from my house.

13,492. Who wrote this document?-I did.

13,493. When?-Yesterday.

13,494. Did anybody suggest to you to do so?-No. It was done at my own option.

13,495. Did anybody speak to you about it?-No.

13,496. Did you just take it into your own head?-Yes, at six o'clock last night.

[Page 336]

13,497. Did you get all these men to sign it last night?-Some last night, and some this morning on my way here.

13,498. Are they all neighbours of yours, quite close to Quendale?-Yes.

13,499. Were they all quite willing to sign it?-Yes; and more would have signed it if they had been asked.

13,500. You think Mr. Grierson is a very good landlord?-Yes; and we do not want to fish to any other. If there is any one better than him we don't know it.

13,501. Do you think you would not make anything more of it by curing your own fish and selling them to any other merchant?- We cannot cure the fish ourselves on that station, because there is no convenience except for one. There is room for all the boats, but only room for one man. The beaching station cannot be divided. It is not like down about Scatness, where there are so many different places for landing.

13,502. Are you a skipper in one of Mr. Grierson's boats?-Yes, of a six-oared boat.

13,503. Do you ever act as a factor to him?-No.

13,504. Do you receive his fish?-No.

13,505. Do you not hold any employment under Mr. Grierson?- No. I have a bit of ground from him, and I act in looking after his peat-mosses, but that is all the employment I have.

13,506. Do you get a small salary for that?-Yes.

13,507. Do you get all your goods at the Quendale shop?-Yes.

13,508. Do you get paid in money at the end of the year?-Yes; any one who has money to get, has it paid to him at that time.

13,509. Have you always something to receive?-No, some years I have something, and some years not.

13,510. Had you some cash to get last year?-No.

13,511. Were you behind the year before also?-I was not behind for that year, but I had been behind before.

13,512. And there has been a balance against you for good number of years?-Yes, because Mr. Grierson gave me an advance when I first took the land from him.

13,513. Do you think that if you were not bound to fish for Mr. Grierson your rent would be raised?-We think so, but perhaps we my be wrong.

13,514. Has anybody suggested to you that your rents might be raised if you were not going to fish to Mr. Grierson?-No, that is only our own imagination.

13,515. Has Mr. Grierson ever said so?-Not to my knowledge.

13,516. Did you ever hear that he had said so?-No, I never heard that.

13,517. Do you think it would be a reasonable thing for him to raise your rents if you were not fishing for him?-I cannot say; I think our rents are high enough as it is.

13,518. But you are afraid that your rents might be raised, and perhaps that may be the reason for some you having signed that paper?-It may have been, but I cannot say.

13,519. Are the goods which you get at Quendale store of good quality and cheap enough?-They are as cheap as we can get anywhere.

13,520. Have you dealt much anywhere else?-No; I have got most of my goods there.

13,521. Do you know anything about Gavin Henderson's goods?- I know a little about them, and I think they are very much the same as at the Quendale store, both as to price and quality.

13,522. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

13,523. Is there any other person present who wishes to make any statement?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until further notice.

.

LERWICK: SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, 1872

-MR GUTHRIE.

JAMES POTTINGER, examined.

13,524. Are you a fisherman residing in Burra?-Yes. I live with my father, who is a tenant there.

13,525 I understand you wish to make some statement; what is it about?-It is about the way in which I have been served in Burra. My father and I had to spend upwards of £12 on repairs on the house where we lived about 1865; and in January 1866, when I was in Messrs Hay's employment, they asked me for extra for peat leave, because we put a small chimney in the bedroom end of our house. I refused to pay it, but when Mr. Irvine settled with me he paid me all except the pound, which he kept.

13,526. What employment were you in then?-I had been at Liverpool with a cargo. I was not at the fishing at the time; I was settling up for my voyage to Liverpool at the time when the pound was taken off.

13,527. Had you got any supplies during that winter from Hay & Co.?-I did not have much.

13,528. Had you been in their employment the summer previous?-No; I had been in Messrs Harrison & Son's employment at the Faroe fishing. When Mr. Irvine would not give me the pound I said I would not sign the books, and I have not signed my account yet. The thing ran on from then until last year, when my father was charged £4 for the extra peat leave. He came back to Burra and asked me what he should do, and then he went in again to Lerwick and paid it. Then, this year, I went in to Mr. Irvine and asked him if he was not to take off the pound, and he said he would never take it off; and when my father settled this year again he had to pay it.

13,529. Then that is a charge made upon your father and not upon you?-Yes.

13,530 Is your father the tenant?-He is, but I went in and paid half of the rent and got a receipt for that half; but the pound was not included in it.

13,531. Why was it not charged upon you?-Because he gripped my father for me.

13,532. But why was it not charged upon you first?-Mr. Irvine told me that we were burning two fires in the house, and that I would have to pay that, but I would not do it

13,533. Had you built an addition to the house when you were married?-I was at the expense of building it. It was a new end to the house that was built then.

13,534. Is it a rule that all who live on the island and burn a fire have to pay peat leave?-Every house has the same privilege that I have, but none of them pay it except myself.

13,535. How do you mean that they have the privilege?-They have a small chimney in the bedroom, the other apartment in the house, the same as I have.

13,536. Why do you come to me to complain of that?-I did not think it would do any good, but I thought I would let you know that such a thing was done, because I think it is unfair.

13,537. Has it anything to do with the fishing?-No.

13,538. Were you ever in Messrs. Hay's employment at the fishing?-I was three years in their vessels as a lad, but that is twelve years ago. I have been twelve years in Messrs. Harrison's employment.

[Page 337]

13,539. Did you leave Messrs. Hay and go to Messrs. Harrison?- Yes.

13,540. Did Messrs. Hay object to one of their tenant's sons leaving their employment and going to fish in the smack of another curer?-No.

13,541. Have you been asked to go in Messrs. Hay's smacks since?-Yes. Mr. Irvine asked me to go in their vessels both in 1866 and 1867, in both of which years I had vessels from them in the winter time, but I told Mr. Irvine that I would not leave the vessel or the employ I was in and go with them.

13,542. Was it before or after you were charged that sum for peat leave that you were asked to go?-It was in the same year. 1866 was the first time I had to pay £1 of peat leave.

13,543. But you said you were charged with that in January 1866; was it before or after January 1866 that Mr. Irvine asked you to go in his Faroe vessel?-It was both before and after I went to Liverpool for Messrs. Hay in the 'North Sea Queen.'

13,544. Was it some time after you came back from Liverpool that you were settled with?-No; it was in the same week or the week after.

13,545. Had you seen Mr. Irvine after you came back and before you settled with him?-Yes.

13,546. Was it when you first came back that he asked you to go to Faroe in the following season?-It was at the time when I settled, and also when I joined the vessel.

13,547. Do you think if you had not refused to go in one of Messrs. Hay's vessels to the Faroe fishing you would have been charged with peat leave?-I don't know about that.

13,548. Is the charge for peats just so much for each fire that is burned?-We don't know; it is just included in the rent.

13,549. Is it not charged separately from the rent?-No; it is all put together, so far as I know; it is all called land-rent.

13,550. Have you any note of your settlement with Mr. Irvine in 1866?-No. I don't think I got any receipt then; but I got a receipt yesterday when I paid the half-year's rent.

13,551. I suppose the people in Burra were quite at liberty to go to the Faroe fishing with any person they pleased during the last twelve years?-No, some of them were not at liberty, but I was at liberty because I had charge of a vessel. A single man who was not master of a vessel did not have liberty.

13,552. How do you know that?-Because I have been told of tenants who had to pay £1 in consequence of their sons going to the Faroe fishing. Andrew Laurenson paid £1 for going to Faroe in Messrs. Harrison's employ, and he has not got it back. I don't know any one else who has not got the money back except him; but there may be others who had to pay it, and who have not got it back.

13,553. Were a number of the young men obliged to go to the fishing in Hay & Co.'s vessels?-A good few of them went in their vessels, and some of them left and went in the vessels of other owners.

13,554. But did you know of any man leaving another owner's vessel in which he was engaged, and going in one of Hay & Co.'s because they required him to do so?-No; I only know that money was paid for that.

13,555. Do you understand that if you had not been a master, but had been merely an ordinary seaman, you would have been obliged to go in Messrs. Hay's vessels?-So far as I know, I would.

13,556. Would you have been bound to do so if they had offered you as good a vessel as master as the one you were going in?-I don't think it; I never heard anything about that. I wish to say that I could get turf from another island which would not cost me over one-fourth of the pound which Hay & Co. charged me for peat leave. My father asked Mr. Irvine yesterday whether, if I got the turf in that way, he would take the pound off me, and he said he would not.

13,557. What kind of agreement do you sign with Harrison & Co. when you go to the Faroe fishing?-It is a written agreement.

13,558. I suppose the fishermen in the Faroe fishing regard themselves as partners with the owners of the ship to the extent of one half?-Yes, that is what we sign for.

13,559. The owners of the ship are always the curers that you deliver the fish to?-Yes.

13,560. And I suppose the owners employ men as curers?-Yes.

13,561. The payment which the fishermen get at the end of the year will depend a good deal upon the way in which the fish are cured, because, if they are ill cured, the fishermen will receive less money?-Yes.

13,562. Or if the fish are ill sold the fishermen will also suffer?- Yes.

13,563. Therefore the fishermen have as much interest in the curing and sale of the fish as the owner has?-Yes.

13,564. But I suppose you leave the management of these matters in the hands of the owners?-Yes; the owners have all the management.

13,565. Is it understood in the Faroe fishing that you get one half of the actual returns from the fishing?-They tell us so.

13,566. It is not according to any current price that you get it, but it is one half of the actual price at which the fish are sold which you are to get?-Yes.

13,567. And you trust entirely to the owners to obtain that price, and to account to you for one half of that, under certain deductions?-Yes.

13,568. Do you know what deductions are allowed before the proceeds of the fish are divided?-I cannot tell; I have seen it all in the agreement, but I cannot recollect what it is just now. It is every man's wish to see a bill of sale for their fish at settling time, but such a thing has never been asked for. I have never asked for it so long as I have gone to the fishing.

13,569. You think you ought to see the bill of sale?-Yes; and that is the opinion of all the fishermen, so far as I know.

13,570. Do the men in Harrison & Son's employment undertake to be ready to join the vessel for putting in salt, bending sails, and so forth, at a certain time before the vessel leaves?-Yes, and that is usually done.

13,571. How long are you bound to remain in the vessel?-Until about 13th August.

13,572. On board the vessel, what do you do with the fish when you catch them?-We bleed them, and wash and split them, and salt them in the hold, and generally prepare them so as to fetch the best market.

13,573. The deductions which are charged before dividing the fish are the expenses of curing and the price of the salt?-Yes. They put the salt and curing altogether, and charge £2, 10s. for that.

13,574. They do not charge the actual cost, but make a slump charge for the whole work?-Yes.

13,575. There is also an allowance deducted of 10s. per ton to the master, and 2s. 6d. to the mate?-Yes.

13,576. And the agreement which you sign provides for a certain quantity of bread for each man?-Yes, 8 lbs. of bread per week; and there is an allowance of 9d. for score money. The score money is paid before the division is made, so that one half is paid by the owners and one half by the men themselves.

13,577. Is it also part of the bargain, that the fishermen are liable for breaking lines or spoiling any part of the vessel?-Yes.

13,578. On returning you put the vessel into dock and unbend the sails?-Yes.

13,579. There is a stipulation in the agreement against smuggling, is there not?-Yes.

13,580. Is there any smuggling carried on at Faroe-Not a great deal now.

13,581. Is there any arrangement about going farther north than Faroe if required?-Yes; if the master thinks it prudent to go to Iceland or elsewhere before a certain time, the men are taken bound to go, and in that case they are paid by wages, which are fixed in the agreement. They begin to run from the 13th or [Page 338] the middle of August, and continue till 1st October. But if we are going to Iceland during the summer, the men run their share of the fishing the same as they do at Faroe.

13,582. It is only for a late voyage to Iceland that they get wages?-Yes.

13,583. Do you often go upon these late voyages?-I have done so for the last few years.

13,584. Are the men bound to go upon them?-They are bound to go if the master or owners require them; but there are plenty of men to be got at that period of the year, so that if any man wants his liberty then he can get it.

13,585. You can fill up your crew from other boats which are not going upon these late voyages?-Yes.

13,586. Does the Iceland voyage commence from Foroe, or do you come to from Lerwick first?-We come back to Lerwick.

13,587. There is a scale of victualling for that voyage contained in the agreement?-Yes.

13,588. The men don't provide their own food?-No; it is provided by the owners. The men provide nothing.

13,589. There is a less supply of bread on the Iceland voyage than on the other voyage, is there not?-Very little less. They have 8 lbs. per week in the summer time, and 7 lbs. at Iceland.

13,590. Do you always get ample supplies according to your agreement?-Yes.

13,591. Do you also get your small stores and outfits from the owner's shop?-Yes. We always go to his shop for what we want at leaving.

13,592. Do you also run an account with Messrs. Harrison for supplies to your family during your absence?-Perhaps some of the men do that, but I don't do it. I pay the money for what I want, and get it where it can be got best.

13,593. Do you run no account at all?-Not much. I sometimes run an account for a little with Messrs. Harrison when I want anything,-perhaps in the year, and that is settled at settling time.

13,594. But most of your supplies you get elsewhere-at Scalloway or Lerwick?-Yes.

13,595. Do all the men in your vessel keep accounts at Harrison & Son's, and get their supplies there?-Yes.

13,596. You purchase your own lines and hooks for Faroe?-Yes. A lead of lines for each man will cost about 11s.

13,597. Is that the only fishing expense that you have?-Yes; but perhaps we may have two leads of lines in one summer.

13,598. Do you always purchase them from the owners?-Yes; or they are put on board the vessel, and the men take them as they require them. The master keeps an account of that.

13,599. How do you do on the Iceland voyage for these fishing supplies?-The men pay hire for their lines on the Iceland voyage.

13,600. Then the lines in that case are at the owners risk?-Yes.

13,601. If they are lost, do the owners bear the loss?-The men have to pay for them if they lose them, and if they return them they only pay hire for them.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, recalled.

13,602. You have handed in an agreement for the year 1871 with the crew of the 'Royal Tar?'-Yes.

13,603. Is that the form that is always used by Mr. Leask in agreements for the Faroe fishing?-Perhaps a word or two may vary, but that is the substance of the agreement. It is in this form:

'Royal Tar.' 'We, the undersigned, hereby agree to prosecute the cod and other fishings ,in the said vessel wherever required by the master or owner during the fishing season of 1871, that is, from the time we are requested to join the vessel until the end of August if required, it being understood that one half of the net proceeds of the fishing belong to the owner of the vessel, and the other half to be divided among the crew in the proportions set opposite their respective names; the owner supplying the crew with 1 lb. of bread per man per day.' Then follow the men's names and residences, and their ages, the last ship in which they were employed, their capacity as master, mate, second mate, sharesman, or half, or three-quarter sharesman, as the case may be. In the next column there is given the rate per ton of premium or extra above the share, being 9s. in this case to the master, 3s. 6d. to the mate, and 1s. to the second mate. Then follows the rate of score money to each man, being in this case 6d. throughout. There is also a column for observations, in which it is noted opposite the names of three men, and as much as he is worth; how is that fixed?-It is left to the discretion of the principal men of the vessel.

13,604. Is anything else of importance ever entered in the column for observations?-If anything occurs, of course it will be entered. I may mention that the time when the men generally have to join the ship is about the middle of March. That time is not fixed by the agreement; it is merely said that they have to join when they are requested.

13,605. What do you do about an Iceland voyage?-The Iceland voyage generally commences about the middle of August, after the Faroe voyage is over. The agreement does not refer to that.

13,606. Do they make a separate agreement for an Iceland voyage, the men being paid by wages?-Yes.

13,607. I understand you have something to add to your previous evidence?-Yes. When my examination ceased previously, I think I was speaking about the work-people, and I have now brought one of the time-books to show the proportion of money and of goods received by each. [Produces book.]

13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871 at Sound beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the amount of their accounts for the week.

13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the superintendent.

13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week, and 2s. is the cash he has to get.

13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day, showing the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes.

13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week, but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance until the end of the year, but we square accounts before.

13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual.

13,614. Is that not a sufficient balance for the whole?-I daresay it comes to the same thing as a sufficient balance, only the account is not ruled off.

13,615. Is it done in pencil?-It is done in ink, but it is not ruled off in lines; it is not added up.

13,616. But there is an addition made in the inner column in ink: how is that done?-It is just like any ordinary account, with double money columns. The wages are credited; then the goods stand against them, and the balance is charged, so that the one squares the other.

13,617. Is that done each week?-Yes.

13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?- Always.

13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the work-people.

13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this- [showing]-is the account, a fair average of a [Page 339] week throughout the season?-I think it will be about a fair average.

13,621. It shows £5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned; and of that, £3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week, the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in goods?-Yes, principally in provisions.

13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes, but in others you will find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was paid in cash.

13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of twenty-seven people employed altogether?-Yes.

13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash than the average, because in the following week £2, 9s. 2d. was due, and £1, 1s. 6d. was paid in cash. In another week £4, 12s. 2d. was payable, and £1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week £4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and £1, 4s. 5d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last week which appears in the book £3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and £1, 2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed then also?-Yes; people, of course, require the same amount of provisions, whether they earn much or little, the amount of their balance in cash being less where the work has been less.

13,625. In the Faroe fishing formerly-I am not speaking of Mr. Leask's business only, but of your general knowledge of the country-was it the case that tenants were held under an obligation to fish for particular persons, just as they now are in some places in the ling fishing?-I am not aware of any tenants having been compelled or bound to fish to their proprietor in the Faroe fishing, either now or formerly.

13,626. When was the Faroe fishing introduced into Shetland?-I think about 1851 or 1852.

13,627. Have you known cases in which proprietors or tacksmen attempted to get their ships manned from their estates, not by compulsion, but by persuasion or influence?-I am not aware of any compulsion having been used at all.

13,628. When the Faroe fishing was first introduced, was it not the case that a merchant's smacks were manned for the most part from lands of which he was proprietor or tacksman?-I believe that is quite true, because when a merchant had tenants he invariably got the preference from them; but they were not bound to go to the fishing for him.

13,629. There was not such a demand for places on board Faroe vessels at that time as there is now?-Nothing like it.

13,630. Now the service has become more popular?-Yes; and the number of the ships has increased considerably, so that the number of men required is far greater.

13,631. Is there always an ample supply of men for that fishing?- Not always.

13,632. When men fall short, what means do you adopt to increase the supply? Have you to canvas for men, or do you raise your terms, or what is done?-There is very little difference in the terms. Men have been very scarce this season in consequence of the bad fishing last year, but we have not altered the terms. I remember one year we had to offer wages as an inducement to the men to ship. In 1861 there was a bad fishing, and in 1862 we had to guarantee them £1, 10s. a month of wages; but I don't think fishermen in general like wages.

13,633. Have you ever had recourse to any other means except persuasion to fill up your vessels not except persuasion; but we have not been at a great loss for men. We have generally had as many as we required, until this season. I don't think we will be able to get as many as we require this season, because of the bad fishing last year.

13,634. I suppose the great bulk of the business in Mr. Leask's shop passes through accounts with fishermen and others?-Yes, the great bulk of it.

13,635. When a man pays in cash for the goods he buys, does he get a discount?-No. We price the goods at the very lowest at the commencement, and we don't alter the prices.

13,636. There are not two prices, according as the man pays in cash or takes it out in his account?-No, it is all the same price.

13,637. Then a man has no advantage in paying cash?-None whatever.

13,638. And he is not expected to pay in cash?-Not if he be employed by Mr. Leask. Of course we sell a great quantity of goods for cash to persons whom we don't employ, both in the provision shop and also in the draper.

13,639. In addition to the fish which are delivered in a wet state at your stations, do you purchase dry fish?-Mr. Leask has been in the habit of purchasing ling for a firm in Dublin for many years. He also buys cod in a dry state occasionally.

13,640. Last year, I understand, you bought all the Greenbank fish?-Yes, all the Greenbank ling, not the other.

13,641. And also some from Mossbank?-Yes.

13,642. Did you also buy dry fish from Thomas Williamson, Seafield?-Yes.

13,643. Do you supply Pole, Hoseason, & Co. with goods as wholesale merchants?-No.

13,644. Then these fish would be settled for by cash or bills?- Yes; by cash at three months from the date of shipment.

13,645. Were these ling paid for at the current price-Yes, at £23 per ton, free on board at Mossbank or Cullivoe, the port of shipment.

13,646. The men, I understand, are paid according to the current price of dry fish at the end of the season?-Yes. They get all the advantage that the curer can afford to give them. The price is not fixed at the commencement, and I think it is much better not.

13,647. What was the current price at the end of last season?- £23.

13,648. Is that calculated to afford 8s. per cwt. for green fish?- Yes. In the previous year the price was, I think, £21 for dry fish, and the price allowed for green fish was 7s. 3d. for ling. Of course tusk and cod were much less.

13,649. How would a transaction such as you have mentioned be taken into account in ascertaining the current price at the end of the season? Would you stand in the position towards the curers of a wholesale purchaser?-Exactly.

13,650. Do you think a number of small sales in the course of a season may be able to get a higher price than a large curer who sells all in a lump all the end of the year?-At rare times he may sell a small parcel for a larger price; but generally, I think, the small curers get a less price than we do at the end of the season.

13,651. Would you be surprised to hear that some small curers were able to pay their fishermen much higher prices for ling and all other fish than the larger curers, and that they have done so, in point of fact, for some years back?-Such a thing is quite possible. They may have got more for their fish when dry.

13,652. How would you account for that?-I cannot account for it; it may have happened by accident.

13,653. Do they require less remuneration for their trouble?-No.

13,654. Or does selling in small parcels enable them to get a higher price?-Sometimes it may.

13,655. Do you think they may sell to retail dealers at once, and thus get the advantage of the retail price?-Perhaps they may sell a small parcel at once at a higher price; but, as a rule, I don't think they do. I think a large parcel generally sells best.

13,656. Is not a large parcel sold to parties who themselves supply retail dealers?-Yes.

13,657. But a small dealer, by taking a little more trouble, may possibly sell direct to the retail merchant himself, so that he secures his profit without the intervention of another dealer?-He may.

[Page 340]

13,658. Is that the way in, which you account for him getting a higher price?-That is the only way in which I can account for it.

13,659. The small curers get not only the curer's profit, but they also get the wholesale fish-dealer's profit at times, by selling direct to the retail dealer. Do you think that is a reasonable explanation of the matter?-I think so. It is the only way in which I can account for it, because I know that the large curers pay the utmost they can afford to the men.

13,660. Do you supply Thomas Williamson, Seafield, with goods?-Yes.

13,661. Are these set in the account against the fish which you buy from him?-Yes.

13,662. And that account is settled from time to time?-Yes.

13,663. Is that the only security which Mr. Leask has for his supplies to Williamson?-Yes; in fact he has no security at all until he gets the fish.

13,664. I suppose Mr. Williamson's is a case of man starting business without much capital?-I think so.

13,665. Is Mr. Leask his security with the Commercial Bank?-I know that he became answerable either for an account or for the value of boats, or perhaps for both; but I could not say what he may have done with regard to the Commercial Bank.

13,666. Are you aware that Williamson obtained letter from Mrs. Budge's agent requiring the fishermen on Seafield to fish for him?-I am not aware of that; I never heard of it before.

13,667. You showed me before the correspondence which had taken place between Mr. Leask and Mr. William Jack Williamson. In a letter dated 7th December 1869 Mr. Leask stated that he had directed the fishermen to fish to him (that is, Williamson), and that Williamson had become liable to him (Mr. Leask) for the rents as James Johnston had done: had he done so?-I suppose Mr. Leask simply recommended them to fish for Williamson; he did not direct them.

13,668. But the word used in the letter is 'directed?'-That simply means recommended. Mr. Leask never directed them to fish for Williamson, or to fish at all. They might have gone to the ends of the earth, to the south, or elsewhere, for anything he cared; but when they did fish, I suppose he wished them to fish for Williamson.

13,669. Probably that recommendation would be taken into account in fixing the rent to be paid for Williamson's premises at Ulsta?-It was not. The rent has never been reduced on account of that.

13,670. But it would not be reduced; it would rather be raised, because that would increase the value?-There was no such understanding at all. I deny most positively that Williamson's rent was increased in consequence of the tenants being allowed to fish for him.

13,671. Was Williamson on the property when Mr. Leask bought it?-Yes. Mr. Leask has been at very great expense on Williamson's property, repairing houses, and one thing and another, and very likely he would have raised the rent in consequence of that. I think he paid about £20 one year for improvements, and there were other improvements carried through which cost a great deal of money; and I consider that Mr. Leask was entitled to a percentage upon that.

13,672. Did he get a rise of rent?-I don't know that he did. I am only saying that if he did get it he was entitled to it.

13,673. But is it not reasonable to suppose that man can pay a higher rent for a piece of ground if the fishermen in the district are under an obligation to deliver their fish to him?-He ought certainly to pay more for a monopoly; there is no doubt about that.

13,674. Do you not know whether the rent was altered after Mr. Leask bought the property?-I believe the rents in general were raised a little,-not the whole of them, but a great many of them,-because Mr. Leask has been at a great deal of expense in building new houses, and otherwise.

13,675. Have you any doubt at all that the fact that the fishermen were fishing for Mr. Williamson and Mr. Johnston was taken into account in fixing the amount of their rents?-It had nothing whatever to do with the fixing of the rents.

13,676. Was it merely as a favour to the merchant who occupied the premises that the tenants were directed to fish to him?-Quite so. It was merely a favour to recommend the tenants to fish for him.

13,677. That was no favour to the fishermen, however?-I don't think it was, but it did them no injustice, because I have no doubt Williamson would have paid them the same price as other people.

13,678. Did Williamson become liable to Mr. Leask then for the rents of the fishermen?-No, never. Williamson never became liable for anything but the balance in his hands.

13,679. Mr. Leask's letter states that he had directed the fishermen to fish to him, and that Williamson had become liable to him for the rents, and he complains also that Williamson had not fulfilled that obligation: had he not become liable?-He may have talked about doing so, but he never did so.

13,680. Did he promise to become liable?-He may have promised to become liable, but to the best of my knowledge, he never did so.

13,681. Is it not a very usual, indeed almost a universal, arrangement in Shetland, that some of the fishermen's rents are paid to the proprietor by the fish-merchant to whom his tenants fish?-Yes; I believe that is quite common.

13,682. Is it not very often done by debiting the fishermen with the amount of the rent in the fish-merchant's books, and the fish-merchant handing a cheque to the proprietor for the slump sum of the rents due by his fishermen?-Yes, that is quite common.

13,683. Is it not almost universal?-I believe it is, but in this case it was not done. Williamson simply paid the balance in his hands which was due to the fishermen. When the balance could not pay for the rent, of course Williamson did not make it up.

13,684. He did not pay any rents for fishermen who were not able to pay for themselves?-No.

13,685. But James Johnston had done so, and fulfilled his obligation?-In one or two cases, I believe, Johnston did so. I could not even say that he has done that, but I think there was some understanding of that sort.

13,686. In that letter of December 1869 to Williamson, Mr. Leask refers to Johnston as having fulfilled the stipulation on that point which Williamson had failed to do. I suppose you have no reason to doubt that that statement is correct?-None; only I was not aware of it. I did not pay any attention to that part of the letter.

13,687. Is it the practice for Mr. Leask to pay to the proprietors the rents of a number of fishermen who have accounts with him?- No; he pays no rents for the men whatever.

13,688. That practice does not exist in connection with the Faroe fishermen?-No. It is only in the home fishing, so far as I know, that that is done.

13,689. Are the rents of any of the men employed in the Faroe fishing by Mr. Leask paid through him to the proprietors?-If an individual gave an order on Mr. Leask in favour of the proprietor, of course it would be paid if the fisherman had funds in Mr. Leask's hands to meet it.

13,690. But not otherwise?-Not otherwise. No guarantee is given.

13,691 Are such orders frequently given?-Frequently; at least they are not uncommon.

13,692. A fisherman sometimes, at or before settlement, gives an order on the shipowner in favour of the proprietor?-Yes.

13,693. And you may perhaps have a number of such orders from the tenants of a particular proprietor?-We have some, but very few.

13,694. When a number of such rents are payable to single proprietor, do you give him one cheque for the whole?-I don't remember any order of that kind being given, except one.

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13,695. I believe you wish to make some additional statement with regard to the Greenland whale fishery?-Yes. With your permission I would again refer shortly to Mr. Hamilton's report, in case there is anything in it which I left uncorrected when I was previously examined. I think I showed last day that crews have been discharged within about one month or less from the date of their being landed; and I referred to the crew of the 'Esquimaux' in May 1870, and to the crew of the 'Polynia' from Davis Straits in November 1871. The former crew contained the latter, I think, 19 men, who were discharged within less than a month.

13,696. Have you known any other cases in which the crews were discharged as rapidly?-I refer to the shipping master of the port for other cases. I have no doubt there are plenty more.

13,697. Are there any others within your own knowledge?-I don't remember any, but I have no doubt there are others. I admitted that in some cases seamen have taken an unreasonable length of time before coming to be discharged; but I explained that that was not the fault of the agents, but of the men themselves. Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised form prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't believe it.

13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.

13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.

13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of the families?-Yes.

13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes; but I don't consider that to be truck at all.

13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the value of the man's fish being taken out supplies of goods, and the balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.

13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.

13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people in Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.

13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but goods?-That is their own fault.

13,706. Still it may be the fact although it is their own fault?-It may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.

13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about the meaning of the word truck than as to the actual state of matters in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think there is any room for complaint about the state of matters in Shetland, as a rule.

13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain advantage by getting advances of goods?-Of course they have.

13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such advances when they require them?-Of course I don't deny that; but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good thing in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather short.

13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize them until then. None of the fish-curers get one penny for their fish until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very small parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.

13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a better position?-Yes.

13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is selling his butter and milk and cattle.

13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.

13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes; but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance in the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to whom he sells his fish.

13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.

13,716. Is it not possible for a fish-curer beginning business on a small scale, to carry on his business without any capital at all, or almost without capital?-If he gets assistance he may, but it is not possible to do it without assistance. No one can carry on business to any extent without capital.

13,717. But he requires only a limited capital, does he not?-He requires a good deal of capital, but it depends entirely upon the extent of his business.

13,718. He has no wages to pay until about the time when he realizes the sales for the year?-But he has goods to supply or money to advance.

13,719. But he may have a certain amount of goods which may be got at three or six months' credit, according to arrangement?- Yes.

13,720. For instance, Mr. Thomas Williamson, at Seafield, does not pay for his goods, I presume, until his fish are sold to Mr. Leask?-That is an exceptional case. If Mr. Leask or Mr. Adie, or any other person, chooses to accommodate such a person as Mr. Williamson, they may do so; but that is not the rule, by any means.

13,721. It is an exceptional case in this respect, that the fish-curer there has a very small capital, and that he has obtained goods on credit?-Yes.

13,722. Still it illustrates the possibility of doing these things under the system which prevails?-Yes, I may mention that the merchants in Lerwick are not so hard as merchants in the south, in requiring that money must be paid at the end of three or four months. A merchant in Lerwick may allow his account to run on for twelve months, because that is the custom of the country.

13,723. Is that the only other point in Mr. Hamilton's report which you wish to refer to?-No. I deny that almost every fisherman in the island is in debt, and that his wife and other members of his family are also in debt.

13,724. How do you know that?-I would refer you to the bank-books, particularly to those of the Union Bank, and also those of the Commercial and National Banks, and of the Post Office Savings Bank, and the Seamen's Savings Bank.

13,725. Are these all the banks in Shetland?-Yes.

13,726. Are you aware that men who take advances in goods and cash from you as their employer frequently have considerable sums in bank?-Yes. I can point to a home fisherman, not a tenant of Mr. [Page 342] Leask's, who has accumulated between £100 and £200 within the last few years.

13,727. Does he take large advances?-I don't know what he takes; he does not deal with Mr. Leask at all. I can also point to a man in the Greenland trade, who within the last six years has saved up, I think, about £130 or £140.

13,728. Do these men obtain advances from their employers in the same way as other men?-Yes; they have accounts in the same way.

13,729. But they have a large balance at the end of the year; probably they don't allow their accounts to exceed their earnings?-Quite so.

13,730. You don't know about the debts which stand in the books of other merchants?-No.

13,731. So that you really cannot say to what extent fishermen are in debt to merchants other than Mr. Leask?-I cannot say to what extent they are in debt to other merchants; but I don't believe they are in debt to any great extent. Part of them may be in debt to some extent, but not the majority. The debtors must be a minority among the men.

13,732. What is the next point in the report to which you wish to refer?-I have already proved that the average quantity of ground on the farms of Mr. Leask's estates in Sound and Whiteness is about 12 acres, and not 3 or 4 acres, as Mr. Hamilton alleges, and I produce the rent rolls and plans to show that the rent is under 10s. an acre. In addition to that, in Sound and Whiteness the tenants have the free use of extensive scattald for their sheep and cattle.

13,733. Are the farms divided there?-Yes, they are all divided. In Yell the tenants have an unlimited amount of sheep pasturage, for which they pay 6d. per head per annum.

13,734. Still these estates of Mr. Leask's only form a small portion of the land in Shetland?-Yes; but I believe they may be taken as a fair criterion for the rest.

13,735. Then you would say that this would have been a fair statement if it had run thus: 'These fishermen for the most part also rent small farms of about 10 to 12 acres, paying a rent of about £6 a year?'-Yes; from £5 to £6 a year on the average. The rents range from perhaps £3 to £12, but on an average they may be taken as from £5 to £6. Then I admit that the direct profit from the shipping agency or the commission allowed to the agents is not a sufficient remuneration for the trouble the agents have and the work they have to perform. I also admit that they do make some profit from their customers; and also that many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage; but I explain that in consequence of that the agent is very often sacrificed in the event of a bad voyage, because then a number of the young hands in the Greenland trade are always in debt.

13,736. Is it within your experience that a much smaller number of green hands is now employed in the Greenland fishery than formerly?-Yes, the number is much smaller than it used to be.

13,737. Is that in consequence of the reluctance of the agents to engage green hands who require an outfit?-Yes. The agents do not wish to give £5 or £6 of an advance for outfit to young hands who have only 30s. to get.

13,738. Therefore they single out more experienced hands, who get larger wages and require no outfit?-Yes, that is my experience.

13,739. Has that tendency been very strongly exhibited within the last few years?-It has been very strongly exhibited of late.

13,740. The agents have made a great effort to exclude young hands, and to obtain experienced men?-Yes, and that admittedly in consequence of the risk attending the advances to the young hands.

13,741. Have the masters of the ships concurred in that course of conduct?-They generally do so. So far as the sealing voyage is concerned, they generally prefer to have experienced hands, but in the whaling voyage they may have about one-fifth of young hands.

13,742. Have they complained about the reduction in the number of young hands engaged for these voyages?-I cannot say that they have.

13,743. Are the gentlemen here who act as agents authorized in any way to engage men for ships?-The masters of the ships are invariably present when the men are engaged; indeed they engage the men themselves.

13,744. Then no engagement is made by the agents?-Very seldom, unless in presence of the master.

13,745. Is that in order to comply with the 147th section of the Merchant Shipping Act?-No; it is because the masters prefer to see the men they engage. Two or three years ago, I think in 1869, we engaged about sixty men and sent them to Dundee; but the masters did not like that plan, and preferred to see the men themselves.

13,746. Are you aware that the 147th section of the Merchant Shipping Act provides, that 'if any unauthorized person engages or supplies any mate, seaman, midshipman, or apprentice, to be entered on board any ship in the United Kingdom, he will be liable to be prosecuted; and if convicted, to a penalty of £20 for each offence?' I was not aware of that.

13,747. It is also provided, that 'the only persons authorized to engage or supply mates, seamen, midshipmen, and apprentices, are the following: owner, the master, or the mate of the ship, or some person who is the bona fide servant and in the constant employ of the owner; the superintendent of a Government Mercantile Marine Office, or an agent licensed by the Board of Trade?'-I may mention that Mr. Leask is part owner of most of the vessels for which he acts as agent; indeed of all except one.

13,748. Therefore he would not fall within that clause as you read it?-No; he would not come within that.

13,749. But you say that, in point of fact, the practice here is, that the seamen are engaged by the master of the ship?-They are virtually engaged by the master.

13,750. And what takes place between the men and the agent before that engagement, is merely of the nature of preliminary negotiations?-Quite so; they are all engaged in presence of the shipping master and the master of the vessel, or at least legally engaged. That is the only binding engagement which is made with them; and it is made in presence of the shipping master and the master of the vessel. It frequently happens that we may arrange in Mr. Leask's office with men to go in the ship, and they fail to appear at the Shipping Office; so that the agreement in the office of the agent is not at all binding.

13,751. Do you remember any occasion of the master of a ship objecting to take any man whom you had recommended to him?- I cannot say that I remember that, but it may have occurred. We generally endeavour to get good men; but when men are scarce, we may have been forced to take what men we could get, and these may not have pleased the master altogether.

13,752. Do you remember any occasion on which the master of a ship objected to take the men whom you wished him to take, and suggested that you were asking him to take men who had accounts with you in preference to others?-I don't remember of that; it may have occurred, but I don't think so. I have known us sometimes trying to persuade a master to take a young lad, out of charity; and sometimes he would do so, against his own inclination.

13,753. Mr. Hamilton says, 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents; or, in other words, for the agent to undertake to pay himself part of the seaman's wages.' Is that so?-I already explained that we never gave allotments.

13,754. He also says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeeper, are practically debarred from doing so?'-I deny that most emphatically.

[Page 343]

13,755. Do you say that a man who obtains an engagement through Mr. Leask or you is quite at liberty to go to any other shopkeeper and obtain his outfit from him?-Yes; he can go wherever he pleases. Every man gets his advance note from the shipping master, or at least in his presence, when he engages.

13,756. Have you never invited any of these men to obtain their outfit at your shop?-We never invited them, but plenty of them have done it.

13,757. Have none of Mr. Leask's people invited them?-No, we never invited them; but they mostly all take a certain amount of goods from us, for all that.

13,758. Do the preliminary negotiations to which you refer generally take place within Mr. Leask's premises?-Yes; but sometimes I have seen it done on board ship.

13,759. Are the same men generally engaged by you for a succession of years, or do they change from one agent to another?-It is not very common for masters to change their men. The men generally stick to one master, and a great number of them stick to one agent; but it is quite common for them to change agents. Mr. Hamilton also says, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread.' I deny that entirely.

13,760. I think you told me in your previous examination that no lists were now exchanged between agents?-It was the custom at one time to exchange lists of balances due by seamen, but it is not done now.

13,761. How long is it since that custom ceased?-I have seen very little of it for a number of years.

13,762. Is it half a dozen years ago since it was given up?-Fully that.

13,763. Have you known any case of a man being refused employment in consequence of dealing with another agent for his outfit?-Never. We were always anxious to get hold of good seamen, whether they dealt with us or not.

13,764. Has that never occurred in the case of middling seaman?- No; even then we never objected to take any seaman in consequence of him going elsewhere with his custom.

13,765. Has there been a large supply of seamen during the last few years for the Greenland trade?-They have been about equal to the demand, certainly not more. I think when the ships were all manned last year, the men were done. There may have been few boys left, but the men were done when the ships were done,

13,766. Have you known any case of a man obtaining an engagement through you and getting his outfit from another shop?-I have no doubt there are plenty of cases of that kind, but I could not point to any particular case.

13,767. Do you remember of any such case occurring?-I cannot say that I remember; but I know that there are plenty of our men who buy very little, perhaps only a few shillings' worth, from us when they go.

13,768. But do you know any case of a man in want of an outfit, engaging with you and getting that outfit from another employer?-I cannot point to any such case.

13,769. The cases which you have in your mind, in which the men have bought very little from you, may be the cases of men who have been for many years at the fishing?-Yes, and who did not require an outfit.

13,770. What was the state of the supply and demand in 1870?-I think it was very much the same as in 1871: the supply was just about equal to the demand, but in 1867 the demand was greater than the supply. In March of that year the 'Jan Mayen' had to leave here three or four men short of her complement. In 1868 I think the supply was about equal to the demand, and also in 1869. In the summer of 1869, after the month of May, the supply was fully greater than the demand.

13,771. Were there few vessels going to the whaling that year?- Yes. In May there were some vessels here engaging men, but we had more men that year than ships.

13,772. How did you select your men that year?-The captain selected there.

13,773. Had you no voice in their selection?-I was not present when they were engaged. Mr. Leask and Mr. Andrew Jamieson were present. I refer to the 'Camperdown' and 'Polynia' in May 1869.

13,774. Were these your only whaling vessels that year?-We had more; but I think we had only these two in at that time when the men were so plentiful. With regard to Mr. Hamilton's report, again, I admit there is no time fixed for settlement, but I have already explained that we cannot compel the men to come until they like. I also deny that the men have to give back all the money that they receive. I have shown that we paid £1120, 12s. 3d. to the crew of the 'Camperdown' in 1865.

13,775. Mr. Hamilton does not say that the men had to give back all the money that they received. What he says is, 'The man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That is only that the men who are in debt to the agent in an equal or greater amount have to hand back the money to him?-The idea that is conveyed is, that every man is in that position.

13,776. Do you deny Mr. Hamilton's statement, that 'when the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion of the crew should not be settled at once?'-Yes, I deny that. I say that no man has to ask twice to be settled with.

13,777. That is not the question. Is it to the agent's interest that the settlement should take place at once or not?-If we wish to have as little trouble as possible, it is our interest to settle with the men at once; but if an agent wishes to retain the men's money in his hands for a month or so, it may be a little to his interest then to delay the settlement.

13,778. May there not be a good deal of money his hands belonging to the men?-There may.

13,779. It is quite a different question whether the agent acts as his interest dictates, but still it is to his interest in such a case to delay the settlement for some time?-I admit that it may be to his interest to retain the money, but I deny that he delays the settlement on that account.

13,780. He may have an interest to retain the money, and it may also happen that a certain amount of supplies is being taken out by the men before they are settled with?-It is very seldom that a man buys anything after he comes home.

13,781. But even although that has not occurred in your business, it is quite possible that in other businesses, or in the hands of an unscrupulous agent-I don't suppose there are any such here,-the settlement may be protracted in order that the agent may retain the money in his hands, and be running up an account against the men at the same time?-I say that the shipping agents in Lerwick are all highly respectable men.

13,782. That is assumed in my question; but I am putting the case of another kind of men engaging in the business. I suppose you can conceive such a case?-Such a case is possible. Shetland is not exempt from bad men.

13,783. In such a case, might not the settlement be protracted for such reasons?-I don't think it could, because, if the settlement is unduly protracted, the man has nothing to do but apply to the shipping master and complain.

13,784. Still that would require an application to the shipping master in order to get it put right?-Yes.

13,785. Do you deny this statement of Mr. Hamilton's: 'I need hardly point out that it is clearly most important, in the interests of the man, that he should not merely nominally but actually receive his [Page 344] wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he likes?'-That is common sense. There can be no doubt about that. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But while the men employed are not free agents,'-I deny that,-'however fair an employer may desire to be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand, the employer wants to make all he can out of those he employs, and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of their labour,'-I deny that,-'leaving to them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' I deny that he has the opportunity of doing that.

13,786. You will observe that it is not alleged that any agent in Lerwick does so. All the allegation which Mr. Hamilton makes is that the opportunity exists?-I deny that there is such an opportunity, because Shetland men in general are very intelligent. They are not at all what they have been represented to be. They are a very sharp, acute, intelligent lot of people, and they are perfectly able to take care, and do take very good care, to protect themselves, and to make sure that their accounts are just. I further think they are very provident, as can be proved by the amount of deposits in the banks. I don't think they are an extravagant people at all. In my opinion they are a very careful, active, energetic, intelligent people, as a rule, much more so than will be found among the same class of people in other parts of the United Kingdom.

13,787. Do you think it is a sign of independence and intelligence, and care in money matters, that fishermen and seamen should leave all these matters in the hands of merchants and landlords?- They don't always do that.

13,788. In the majority of cases they pay their rents through their fish-merchant, and many of their accounts are paid by him?-That must be so, because they have no other means of doing it.

13,789. Most workmen in other parts of the country have their wages in their own hands every fortnight or every month, and can disburse them at their own pleasure; whereas in Shetland the universal practice is for the fisherman to run an account with the fish-merchant to whom he delivers his fish, and the fish-merchant transacts all his money matters for him. Do you think that is a proof of their intelligence and independence?-The man has merely a current account as he would have with a banker. He gets money, or anything he likes, if he wishes to pay an account. I suppose the fish-merchant, if he has money in his hands, would give it to him; but to settle with the fishermen every week or every fortnight is utterly impossible in Shetland.

13,790. Why?-Because the fishermen are in a sort of partnership with their employers. For instance, in the Faroe fishing it is a joint speculation betwixt the men and the owner. The men supply their time and labour, and the owner supplies the vessel and other things, and the men cannot get their share of the proceeds until the fish are dried and sold. It is quite impossible for the fish-merchant to settle with them every week or every fortnight unless they have been paid by wages. Of course, if they were paid by wages, the curer could settle at short intervals with the men, or with some one on their behalf when they were away.

13,791. Is it not the fact that in almost every case the fishermen depend for the accuracy of their accounts upon the fish-curer?- No, they all have a good check upon their accounts. They have them carefully read over, and every item criticised; and if they don't remember exactly about a particular article, they will not settle for it until they do remember.

13,792. You are now speaking of the Faroe fishing and the Greenland fishing, of which you have had experience?-Yes.

13,793. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I should wish to refer to certain passages in the previous evidence given before the Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,207 Mr. Smith is asked, 'Is it a fact, that very little money passes between the proprietor and the fishermen on these occasions?' [that is, at settlement], and he replies, 'It is the fact.' I say that it is not a fact, and I have proved already that the men do get money. At Ulsta the amount earned was £86, and the cash paid was £72.

13,794. Of course you are only speaking now of what comes under your own observation in Mr. Leask's business?-That is all. Then in question 44,219 Mr. Smith is asked, 'As a rule, are these fishermen in their debt?' and he replies, 'I think very often they are.' Now I say they are not in debt. The balances at the end of the year are generally in their favour. Then, in question 44,225, referring to the payment of the men employed at Greenland, Mr. Smith is asked, 'Are the wages handed over to the agents?' and he replies, 'The fishermen have the right of insisting that their wages should be paid at the Custom House in terms of the articles, but that is very extensively evaded.' I deny that.

13,795. Have attempts never been made to evade that rule about paying wages at the Custom House?-I don't think so. There is no chance of evading it:

13,796. Do you say that no attempt has been made to make deductions other than those allowed by the statute at the time when the wages were paid at the Custom House?-I say that, during the first year or two, settlements were made in the Shipping Office of the agents' accounts as well as of the men's accounts.

13,797 Was not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I cannot say as to that.

13,798. When is the last payment of oil-money made?-It is not always at the same time. Sometimes it is in November, and sometimes in December.

13,799. Where is it paid?-At one time it used to be made in the Shipping Office also, but now it is invariably in the agent's office.

13,800. Is not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I don't think so. It is an arrangement between the parties. Mr. Smith further says, that what he calls the evasion of the Act is as much at the wish of the fishermen as at the wish of the proprietor. That conveys the idea that the Greenland men are generally tenants of the agent, but I may say that in the 'Camperdown' crew in 1865 only one man was tenant of Mr. Leask. In question 44,243 Mr. Smith is asked, 'Confining ourselves to the whalers, is there any reason why the settlement should be so long delayed?' and he replies, 'I see none, except to save the merchants trouble.' I deny that; and I say that it gives the merchants more labour and trouble to be going up to the Shipping Office so often.

13,801. In the following answer Mr. Smith says the fisherman has the power to insist on the settlement taking place at the Custom House if he chooses. Have you known any cases where they have insisted on that?-They don't require to insist. So far as we are concerned, they never have to ask twice to be settled with.

13,802. Had you any applications from Shetland men before 1867 to have such settlements at the Custom House?-I cannot say that I remember any. The custom then was to pay the men as soon as we got the remittance from the owner, which was generally about a month after the ship landed her crew. No doubt, if a man had come before then wishing for settlement, we would have refused to settle with him if we had not got the remittance. That, however, was previous to 1867.

13,803. If a man insisted on getting payment and going to the Custom House then, what would have taken place?-The Custom House did not interfere then at all.

13,804. Then there was no case before 1867 or 1868 of a seaman asking you to go and settle in presence of the superintendent?- No.

13,805. And such settlements were never made presence of the superintendent?-No, except in 1854 and 1855, and I explained why we settled there then.

13,806. But from 1854 or 1855 down to the issuing [Page 344] of the notice in February 1868, there was no instance of the settlement being made before the superintendent?-None, to my knowledge.

13,807. The accounts during that time were settled invariably in the agent's office, in the same way and on the same principle as fishermen's accounts?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,247, Mr. Smith says he considers the system of barter to be hurtful to the independence of the people very much. I deny that the people are not independent. I consider them to be as independent as any people in the kingdom. Mr. Smith also says, 'They don't know the value of money, and they don't know how to eke it out, or make it last. They are very improvident in that way, and a men's energies are entirely destroyed.' I maintain that the Shetland people know very well the value of money, and they also know how to eke it out and make the most of it. I also say they are not improvident or extravagant, but the reverse.

13,808. Do you think a man who is deeply in debt fishes as well as a man who is not in debt?-It is an exception when a man is deeply in debt: but that statement is a charge against the whole people of Shetland. There are exceptions to every rule, and it may be the case that some men are in debt.

13,809. But you don't know the circumstances of the whole people of Shetland?-I have a pretty good idea with regard to most of them.

13,810. Would it surprise you to be informed that two-thirds of the fishermen in any district in Shetland were in debt at settlement to the merchant to whom they sold their fish?-Yes, that would surprise me.

13,811. Then the opinion you have formed as to the character of the Shetland people proceeds on the supposition that that is not the case?-It proceeds upon my own experience with Mr. Leask's tenants and fishermen and seamen.

13,812. Would it surprise you to hear that a large proprietor in Shetland had said that fishermen required to be treated like children,-that they could not manage their own money matters,- and that therefore he was obliged to take them into his own hands?-I would be surprised to hear that, and I would not agree with it at all. I have found them all to be very intelligent and very sharp, and perfectly able to take care of themselves.

13,813. Do you think the men who are engaged in the ling fishing are of the same class as those with whom you have had dealings?-Some of them are the same, and I think the men employed both in that fishing and in the Faroe fishing are all much the same. They have all had the same opportunities. Then in Mr. Walker's evidence, in answer to question 44,366, he estimates that £60 or £70 goes into a Shetland house every year. I think that is an over-estimate. About one half of that would be nearer the truth.

13,814. But his estimate of what goes into a Shetland house does not apply to fish merely, but to all produce and stock from the farm, and kelp and hosiery?-Still I consider that to be an over-estimate, and I think about one half the sum he named would be nearer the mark. Then, in question 44,368, he is asked, 'But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' and he replies, 'Not a fraction of it. If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing.' I deny that most positively, and I have proved it not to be the case.

13,815. But that is only in your own business?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,386, Mr. Walker says the cost of rearing a lb. of Shetland wool was something like 8s. to 10s. He must have been taking leave of his senses when he stated that. In order to disprove his statement, I say that Mr. Leask's tenants in Yell pay 6d. a head for sheep for grazing over a whole twelve months, and a Shetland sheep carries from 2 to 3 lbs. of wool on an average, so that the cost of rearing it is something like 21/2d. or 3d.

13,816. But you don't include the price of the sheep or other expenses except that of pasturage?-There are no expenses, except driving now and then. They don't require to feed them in winter, except perhaps for a day or so, when there is snow on the ground.

13,817. Do they get no artificial food?-No. Very little of that is ever imported.

13,818. You don't take into account the rent which the tenant pays for his ground?-That has nothing to do with the rearing of the sheep. They are reared altogether on the scattald.

13,819. But the use of the scattald is limited to tenants?-No. Those who are not tenants get permission from Mr. Leask to graze sheep on the scattald at 6d. per head, being the same rate as for tenants.

13,820. Is that the usual practice in Shetland?-I don't know that it is, but that is the practice with Mr. Leask, and plenty of people who are not tenants of his enjoy the same privilege. I merely mention that to disprove this statement of Mr. Walker's, which is so glaringly incorrect. I hold that 1 lb. of Shetland wool as bought from Mr. Leask's tenants costs only from 2d. to 3d. I don't think I need take up your time by going over the evidence any further. I would merely say that I disagree with all, or almost all, of Mr. Walker's statements. The parts of his evidence with which I more particularly disagree are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. 44,290, 44,316, 44,318, 44,319, 44,337, 44,345, 44,346, 44,351, 44,353, 44,366, 44,368, 44,369, 44,370, 44,372, 44,374, 44,384, 44,385, 44,386, 44,389, 44,392, 44,411. The statements in Mr. Smith's evidence which I more particularly deny are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos. 44,160, 44,195, 44,222, 44,225, 44,226, 44,241, 44,244, 44,245, 44,246, 44,247, 44,248, 44,252.

13,821. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK, examined.

13,822. I believe you are the largest employer in the Faroe trade, and also one of the largest fish-curers in the island?-I am one of the largest: I don't know that I am the largest.

13,823. The previous witness, Mr. William Robertson, has been for a long time in your employment?-Yes.

13,824. He came forward to be examined, I understand, at your suggestion, in order that you, being advanced in years, might not require to do so?-Yes; and he has been more in the habit of settling with the men than I have been myself.

13,825. Have you heard the greater part of his evidence?-I have.

13,826. Do you know it to be correct?-I do.

13,827. You concur in it generally?-Yes. There is only one point on which I would make a remark. With regard to some fishermen getting higher prices than others from small curers, I know there were one or two parties who got more last year, the reason being that there are frequently parties in Scotland who get orders for fish for Australia, and these parties give a higher price than ordinary in order to get good fish, and they are shipped earlier in the season than the bulk of the fish. Last year, also, one or two curers shipped to parties in London at a higher price, and consequently were able to give a higher price to their fishermen; but that was only an exception.

13,828. That would not explain the fact of certain curers paying a higher price every year?-No.

13,829. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE SIMPSON, examined.

13,830. Are you a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I do not wish to give any statement before you at all, [Page 346] because the proprietor may not look well upon me, and perhaps may raise my rent or warn me. My name has been put in to you privately without my knowledge. I did not give it in myself.

13,831. Every one knows that you do not come here of your own free will, but that you have been summoned to come just as you would be summoned as a witness in a court of law. Now that you are here, you are bound to answer the questions which are put to you, and to speak the truth?-I will do so as far as I can, and as far as my memory will enable me.

13,832. Then you are a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I am.

13,833. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman of Lunna?-I believe I am, so far as I can understand.

13,834. You have no liberty to sell your fish to anybody else?- No.

13,835. Was there a meeting held at Lunna about eight or ten years ago, at which Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson were present and told the tenants that they were expected to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I believe there was.

13,836. Were you there?-I don't remember.

13,837. But you knew about it?-I heard that Mr. Bell had delivered the fishing over to Mr. Robertson.

13,838. Was that the reason why you did not want to come forward to-day?-Yes.

13,839. You knew you were bound to fish, and you did not want to say anything to the contrary?-Yes, in case it might affect me in any way with them.

13,840. Would you prefer to have your liberty?-Of course; but my days are done now. I have been bound to serve the estate since I was eleven years of age, and now I am sixty. I was two years at the beach when I was a boy; and I went to the ling fishing when I was thirteen.

13,841. Has there been any time since then when you could have sold your fish to anybody else than the landlord or his tacksman?-I could have sold some of them to small fish-curers or yaggers if I had pleased; but I did not attempt to do so, because I thought I was bound to fish for them.

13,842. Are there small fish-curers or yaggers who buy fish on the sly in the summer?-Yes.

13,843. But in the winter you can sell your fish to any person you please?-I don't think we can do that either. None of the tenants can sell their fish in winter unless they do it privately.

13,844. Do they all sell their winter and spring fish to Mr. Robertson at present?-Yes.

13,845. Have they always sold them to the proprietor or his tacksman?-Yes, except those who sell them privately.

13,846. Are there many yaggers about Lunna?-Not many.

13,847. Do they come round in the course of the season and attempt to buy fish from you?-There is one or two of them in Skerries. Mr. Adie is there.

13,848. But he is not a yagger?-No> John Hughson is also there. Thomas Hughson was there for a while.

13,849. Who does Hughson act for?-John Hughson has only one boat; but I believe he would buy fish from any one if he could get them.

13,850. Where does Hughson live?-John Hughson lives at Coppister, in the south-west part of Yell; and he has a man in Skerries who cures some fish for him. I think they are in partnership in some way.

13,851. What is the name of the man in Skerries?-I cannot say.

13,852. Have you seen men selling their fish to Hughson's factor in Skerries?-No.

13,853. But you know that he is ready to buy them-I hear that.

13,854. Do you think that a man selling his fish to these men, or to any other yagger, would lose his farm?-I don't know.

13,855. But you don't sell to these people yourself, for fear of losing your farm?-I wish to serve the man that I am bound to, and to sell all my fish to him, so far as I can.

13,856. Are you bound to fish for him by your own free will?-I believe it is the landlord who has bound me, but I cannot say.

13,857. Can the landlord bind you unless you agree yourself to be bound?-I am his tenant, and I must submit to his terms.

13,858. Could you not get another holding if you were not satisfied?-The holdings are very difficult to get, because a large part of Shetland has been laid out in sheep farms, and tenants have no opportunity of getting places.

13,859. Do you know John Johnston and Arthur Anderson, who were once in Lunna, and who went over to Burravoe some years ago?-Yes.

13,860. Do you know why they left?-I cannot say, unless it was because they were not satisfied in some way or other, and looked out for better places.

13,861. Did they not leave because they did not want to be bound to fish?-I cannot say.

13,862. Where do you get your supplies?-I purchase them in Lerwick, or wherever I can get them cheapest, except when I run out, and then I take them from the shop at Vidlin.

13,863. Do you buy much in Lerwick?-Sometimes I buy a good quantity; but when my stock runs out, I go to the merchant who is nearest to me for any small thing I want.

13,864. Then you don't get much of your supplies at Mr. Robertson's shop at Vidlin?-I can get any supplies there that I ask for, but I wish to go where I can purchase them cheapest.

13,865. Can you purchase them cheaper in Lerwick than at Vidlin?-Yes; but of course we must allow for freight.

13,866. But, allowing for freight, do you think you are cheaper, on the whole, by buying in Lerwick rather than in Vidlin?-Yes.

13,867. What kind of goods do you get at Vidlin?-Meal or tea, or anything I want.

13,868. Do you get most of them there?-No; I only get a part.

13,869. Does it depend upon whether you have a balance in your favour, or cash in your hands, that you go to Vidlin?-I sometimes go for credit and sometimes for cash.

13,870. Do you get your goods at the same price there, whether you get them on account or pay cash?-I believe I do.

13,871. Is that [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Robertson at Vidlin?-Yes. The account is kept with Mr. Robert Sutherland, the shopkeeper there. I also produce an old account for 1864.

13,872. Do you always keep a pass-book?-No; only at times. I got that account just after the settlement. I thought it rather too heavy, and I wished a copy of it; but I cannot say whether it is accurate or not.

13,873. Did you get a discount when you complained about the account being too high?-I don't remember; but I have sometimes got a small discount.

13,874. Is the settlement at Vidlin generally in December?-It is generally after Martinmas, sometimes sooner and sometimes later.

13,875. We need not go back so far as 1864. Have you ever got an account like that since?-No; I think that was the heaviest account I ever had.

13,876. You never disputed the rates you were charged since then?-No, I never disputed them.

13,877. Do you always get your account read over to you at settlement?-Yes; Mr. Robertson sometimes does it.

13,878. Do you settle with Mr. Robertson himself?-Yes.

13,879. Does he always read over your account?-Sometimes he reads it over, and at other times he allows me to get it read over by Mr. Sutherland.

13,880. Is there a separate account kept for any of your family?- No.

13,881. I see from your pass-book that in 1870 you got two advances of cash in April and June?-Yes.

13,882. Do you get cash advanced to you when you ask it?-Yes.

[Page 347]

13,883. Had you a balance to get at the settlement for 1870?-I think I had.

13,884. I see that on September 9th, 1870, you were charged quarter boll best oatmeal, 5s. 8d.; September 26th, quarter boll, 5s. 6d.; one peck, 1s. 4d. Were you buying meal in Lerwick at that time?-No; that was just about the time when I was getting in my crop.

13,885. Did you buy any meal in Lerwick last summer or autumn?-I bought some in April before I began to the fishing. I paid £2 to Mr. John Tait for sack of Orkney oatmeal.

13,886. The book you have produced also contains your fish account?-It contains a copy of it, which was made by my son on Thursday night, from an old pass-book which I used in settling with Mr. Robertson.

13,887. In 1870 you got 7s. 3d. for your ling: did all the fishermen in Lunnasting get the same?-Yes.

13,888.,Was that the current price for the year?-Yes, but I believe some got more.

13,889. Did you hear that the people about Sandwick had got 8s. 3d. for ling that year?-Yes.

13,890. Was that from Smith and Tulloch, the curers there?-I don't know the men's names, but I believe it was.

13,891. Do you think it would have been possible to pay you as high as that, and to allow the fish-curer a decent profit?-I could not know unless I had been dealing in the fish myself, but I don't think it would have been possible.

13,892. The current price this year was 8s. for ling, 6s. 6d. for tusk and cod, and 4s. for saith?-Yes.

13,893. Do you think there was a higher price paid anywhere else this year?-I cannot say.

13,894. If you had got the price that was paid in 1870 at Sandwick, would you have had a larger sum to receive for your fishing?- Yes; we would have received about £13 more for the crew on the summer and harvest fishing.

13,895. Do you fish much in harvest?-No; we sometimes fish two weeks after old Lammas Day.

13,896. Is that put into a separate account from the summer fishing?-Yes, but it is all paid at the same time, because it has been earned by the same crew.

13,897. Do you sometimes fish in small boats in winter?-I have done that on former occasions, but not now. I have dropped the winter fishing.

13,898. Did you sometimes take large quantities of fish in winter?-Sometimes the fishing then was not very good. In some years we might make a few pounds by it.

13,899. Did you always sell your winter fish to the tacksman at Vidlin?-Sometimes; but I cannot say that we did so always.

13,900. Did you consider yourself bound to sell them to him?-I believed I was bound.

13,901. But you were not so strict in doing it in winter as you were with regard to the summer fishing?-No.

13,902. What led you to think that you were bound to sell your winter fish to him as well as your summer fish?-I don't know. I only knew that the tacksman wished to have them; but we did not sell them all to him.

13,903. Are you at perfect liberty to go to Lerwick for your goods if you choose?-Yes.

13,904. Does Sutherland or any one else ask you at settlement if you want any goods?-No; they just give me whatever goods I ask.

13,905. But do they ask you if you want anything when you are settling?-At times they may, but not always.

13,906. Do you settle in the shop at Vidlin?-We settle in the office behind the shop.

13,907. Do you go past the counter into the office?-Yes.

13,908. After you have had your account read over to you, and the amount of your fish stated, are you ever asked whether you want any more goods?-No; not unless I please to take some.

13,909. But are you ever asked if you want them?-I cannot say that I am. If I buy anything myself, then they may ask me if I want anything more.

13,910. Do they not ask you unless you are buying something at any rate?-No.

13,911. Does not Mr. Sutherland sometimes ask you if you want goods before you go in to settle?-No.

13,912. If you take goods at that time, are they put into your account for the past year, or do they go into your account for the next year?-They are entered any way I choose. Perhaps they may be marked down to account, or I may pay for them in cash if it is any small thing. I don't wish to run a heavy account.

13,913. Do you pay in cash for the articles you get in Lerwick, or have you an account with Mr. Tait?-There are some merchants who know me who would give me credit for perhaps twelve months or so, but sometimes I pay cash down.

13,914. I suppose they know that you have got something in the bank?-It is not much. Mr. Robertson is my banker.

13,915. Then you sometimes leave your balance in his hands at the end of the year, and get interest on it?-Yes.

13,916. Why do you not deal more with him for your supplies when he is your banker?-I deal with him in Lerwick, but I deal as little as possible at Vidlin, unless when I run out.

13,917. Do you get goods from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-Yes, I get what I want.

13,918. Have you an account with him here as well as an account in the shop at Vidlin?-Yes.

13,919. Do you get any meal from him in Lerwick?-Yes, and tea and sugar.

13,920. Do you get them cheaper from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick than at Vidlin?-Yes.

13,921. On the opposite side of your Lerwick account is there entered any money or interest that is due to you?-Yes; Mr. Robertson enters that in his book.

13,922. Do you know whether John Hughson buys a large quantity of fish in the course of a year?-I cannot say.

13,923. Why do the men prefer to sell to him?-They do it of their own free will.

13,924. Do they get a larger price from him?-Perhaps they may, but they only sell to him privately.

13,925. Did any man ever tell you that he had got a larger price from Hughson?-I don't remember.

13,926. Would he be paying money at the time for the fish which were sold to him?-Perhaps he might, or in any trifle of goods which were needed at the time. There are some things which Mr. Robertson may be out of in Skerries, and we have to go to another merchant for them. For instance, if we wanted a refreshment of spirits, or anything like that, we have to go to Mr. Adie for it.

13,927. Does Hughson's man keep spirits too?-I don't know. Perhaps he may have a little for supplying his own men, but I don't know anything about that.

13,928. Has Mr. Adie got a licence?-Yes.

13,929. When fish are bought by Mr. Adie's man or by Hughson's man, are they paid for at the time, or is there an account kept of them?-I cannot say; perhaps the men may run a small account, and settle it up afterwards. I have had to go to Mr. Adie for many a thing, and I have run an account with him for them.

13,930. Do you not sell fish to him?-No.

13,931. You merely run an account with him for anything you want?-Yes.

13,932. Has Mr. Robertson not a shopkeeper at Skerries in the summer time as well as Mr. Adie?-He has a small supply of goods there, such as lines, and tea and sugar; but that is all. Sometimes I required something else and went to Mr. Adie for it, and sometimes I bought my stores at Lerwick.

[Page 348]

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE ROBERTSON, examined.

13,933. Are you a fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting?-I am.

13,934. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman, Mr. Robertson?- Yes.

13,935. How do you know that you are bound?-Because I understand we are bound by Mr. Bell to fish for him.

13,936. Who told you that?-When Mr. Bell came in to rule over us at first, the agreement was that the tenants were to give the offer of all their produce to him, and to no other man.

13,937. Did Mr. Bell tell you that?-Yes.

13,938. Was that about ten or twelve years ago?-It is longer ago than that.

13,939. Was it when Mr. Bell came to the estate first?-Yes.

13,940. Did he buy your fish at that time?-Yes.

13,941. Was there a meeting at which Mr. Bell told you that?- Yes; it took place in the house of Lunna.

13,942. How were you informed that Mr. Robertson became the tacksman?-We were informed that he was the tacksman, and we knew it.

13,943. Was there a meeting at that time too?-I was aware of none.

13,944. You only heard that Mr. Robertson became tacksman, and you don't remember who told you?-No.

13,945. Have you always fished for him since, and got the current price?-Yes.

13,946. Do you get your provisions at the shop at Vidlin?-Yes; and sometimes I get them from Mr. Robertson's shop in Lerwick, if I ask them there.

13,947. Do you keep an account at Lerwick also?-Yes, a small account.

13,948. Is it separate from the Vidlin account?-They are all brought together and settled for at the same time.

13,949. Do you get your goods cheaper when you come to Lerwick for them, than when you get them at Vidlin?-I cannot say, because I never had money to purchase them with.

13,950. You have always had to run an account?-Yes.

13,951. Had you a balance to get in cash at the end of last year?- No; I was in debt.

13,952. Have you been so for many years?-Yes.

13,953. Have you sometimes bought your goods at other shops?- Not often, because I did not have money to buy them with there.

13,954. When you did buy them at other shops, where did you get the money?-In the first part of the time I had a little; but I have not bought anything at other shops lately.

13,955. Do you not sometimes sell your winter fish for a little money in hand?-No.

13,956. Do you sometimes get an advance from Mr. Robertson?- Yes. If I ask for a little money I get it.

13,957. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. I have got an account of my last year's dealings here. [Produces it.]

13,958. Have you always had a pass-book?-No.

13,959. Is this the first one you had?-Yes.

13,960. You pay your rent to Mr. Robertson, and it is put into your account?-Yes.

13,961. You begin on December 12, 1870, with a balance against you of £22, 18s. 8d., and that was increased at December last to £39, 14s. 2d., including the rent?-Yes.

13,962. You were credited at settlement with a payment of cash in August of £2, and with the amount of your fishing, £18, 12s. 11d., reducing the balance to £19, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.

13,963. Where did the cash you paid in August come from?-It came from the sale of an ox.

13,964. Who did you sell it to?-I cannot exactly say, because it was my wife who sold it. I was at Skerries at the time.

13,965. Have you got any supplies since November from the Vidlin shop?-Yes.

13,966. Are the supplies of the men sometimes stopped when they get too deep in debt?-Yes.

13,967. Are they then put upon a certain allowance?-Yes.

13,968. Is that a common thing about Vidlin?-I cannot say for any one but myself. I have been put upon an allowance; but I cannot say how much it was, because it was my family who always got it.

13,969. I see that in your book on June 14, 21, and 28, there are entries on each of these dates of 24 lbs. oatmeal, and 3s. 81/2d. for flour; was that your allowance?-I believe so.

13,970. There are similar entries on July 5 and 12, and there is no other entry till 26th July, when you got double the quantity, but it is entered in a different form?-Yes.

13,971. Did you understand that you were on an allowance all last summer?-Yes.

13,972. Was that done with the view of reducing the amount of your debt?-Certainly.

13,973. And it is considerably reduced now?-Yes.

13,974. Do you think you will get it all wiped off?-I don't know. It depends on the fishing and the crop.

13,975. Are there many men are in the same position as yourself?-That is a secret to me. I don't know how the men's accounts stand with Mr. Robertson.

13,976. Why did you get so far into debt?-I and my family had a fever in the middle of summer about six years ago, and I got behind then. My earnings were all stopped by the fever.

13,977. Do you think that if you had ready money you would be able to purchase your supplies cheaper than you can get them at the Vidlin shop?-I don't know. Perhaps if I was trying, I might be able to purchase them a little better. There are freights and other things that must make them dearer at Vidlin than elsewhere.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SIMPSON, examined.

13,978. Are you a fisherman at Valour, in Lunnasting?-I am.

13,979. Are you a relation of Laurence Simpson, who has been already examined?-I am his brother.

13,980. Have you heard his evidence?-Yes, I heard good deal of it; but his case is different from mine, because he has had ready money with which to purchase things as he best could, and I have not had it. I have been obliged to take my goods from the people I was fishing to, because I did not have money with which to buy them at any other place.

13,981. Do you think he got his things rather cheaper than you in consequence of having ready money?-I think so.

13,982. Were you obliged to deal at the shop at Vidlin?-I was, because I was in debt.

13,983. Were you bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I was.

13,984. Do you think you could have got a better price for your fish if you had been free?-Perhaps we might; but we could not ask for it, because we were bound.

13,985. If you were free, would you attempt to cure your own fish, or to sell them to another curer?-I might.

13,986. Do you think you would make anything by curing your own fish?-I think I would.

13,987. Would you be able to give some idle time to it when you could not go to sea?-If we were curing our own fish, two or three boats would join together, and employ a man and a boy for the purpose, and then the men would have all their time to go to sea.

13,988. Would you have a factor of your own?-Yes, if we had our freedom.

[Page 349]

13,989. Have you often thought about that?-We would have thought about it if we had had our freedom; but we were bound, and we could not do it.

13,990. Have you got your pass-book?-I have had no pass-book for some time. There was one year when I had a pass-hook for some time, but it was not made up regularly, and it was given up. Then the whole account was put into the ledger, and Mr. Sutherland went over it with me at settlement; but the last year Mr. Sutherland was busy, and we did not get it done. This year, however, Mr. Robertson has given me a copy of the account for the two years' transactions. I only got it to-day before I came down here, but I cannot understand it very well. [Produces two passbooks.]

13,991. Did you get the copy of your account after you got the summons to come here?-No. The girl came with it just about the same time that the summons came. She had been over at the shop, and she brought the summons with her.

13,992. Did you ask Mr. Robertson at settlement for a copy of your account?-I asked Mr. Sutherland to read over my account, and when I went to hear him read it he said he would give me a copy, and he has put it down in a pass-book.

13,993. I see here an entry on 17th current, 'To paid freight on b. meal, 5d.' What does that mean?-It was a boll of meal I got from Lerwick, and very likely Mr. Sutherland has paid the freight for me.

13,994. Did you get that meal from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?- No, I got it from William Smith.

13,995. The balance against you in December 1869 was £30, 5s. 3d., and it was reduced at last settlement to £21, 17s. 111/2d.?- Yes, I have brought it down to that by my two years' earnings.

13,996. How did you happen to have such a large debt?-I had a fever in the same year that Laurence Robertson was ill, and I earned no more that year, although the fishing then was a good one. My illness brought me into debt that season, and I have never been able to clear it off.

13,997. I see in your account on 7th September last, 'By balance to kelp, per son Robert, 6s. 4d.' How does that go into your account?-The boy had some things out of the shop, and that has likely been to pay for them.

13,998. Had he an account of his own for kelp?-He had no account, because he is not old enough yet but he was working with his mother and sisters at the kelp, and he got some clothes.

13,999. Had his mother and sisters some out-takes from the shop while they were working at the kelp?-Yes.

14,000. And the 6s. 4d. would be what was due on the kelp above the amount of these out-takes?-It was what they allowed the boy for his share of the kelp.

14,001. Had your wife and your daughters accounts of their own separate from yours?-Yes.

14,002. Do the other members of your family always have accounts of their own, independent of your account?-They have had accounts for kelp, and perhaps for some other trifles besides.

14,003. Do they take in hosiery at the Vidlin shop?-Very little.

14,004. Do they take any of it from the members of your family?-I don't know if they have much to give them, but if they wanted a little at a time they might have taken some of it to them.

14,005. I see on September 22, 'By 74 lbs. wool at 111/2d.' What was that?-It was wool that I gave into the shop to help to pay off my account.

14,006. Was that all the wool off your sheep for the year?-It was not the whole of it. I had a little more than that. There had been some of it used for my own family. The sheep were kept in a park which Mr. Bell had taken in. We had it as a free pasture before, but he took the pasture from us, and rouped the park for £15, to keep 200 head of sheep. That was the reason why we were bound to give our produce to Mr. Robertson. I considered it right in me to give him the wool, in order to pay for the rent of the park; but previously we had that pasture at our own freedom.

14,007. Were you bound to sell the wool and the sheep in that pasture to Mr. Robertson?-Mr. Robertson was the cautioner to Mr. Bell for the rent of it, the same as he was for the rent of our toon.

14,008. Was he the tacksman?-Yes.

14,009. And Mr. Robertson let you the park?-No. Mr. Bell let us the park. It was his own property, but Mr. Robertson was cautioner for the rent.

14,010. Was the park at Lunna House?-No. It was a park about a mile to the south of Lunna. We were allowed by Mr. Bell to put 200 head into it, and we did so; but there came a dearth, and it could hardly bear that number.

14,011. Have you got the park still?-Yes, I and my brother and Mr. Anderson. There was another man interested in it at first, Hunter Sinclair, but he gave up his share, and now the three of us have it.

14,012. Have you one-third share of the sheep which are put upon it?-Yes.

14,013. And this was the wool which had been produced from these sheep?-Yes; and because Mr. Robertson had become bound for the rent of the park, we thought we ought to give him the wool in return.

14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland.

14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking me for it, but I would not sell it to them.

14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would not consent to sell it to them at all.

14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d. wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right to it.

14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your wool?-I cannot say that he had.

14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid my debt he would not have asked it.

14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to another.

14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes.

14,022. How do you sell your eggs?-We sell them mostly to Mr. Sutherland, and get small stores for them at the time, such as tea or sugar, or anything we want. They do not go into the account.

14,023. The eggs are never paid for in cash?-No; but I have no doubt we would get cash for them if we asked it.

14,024. But you always choose to take tea or sugar?-Yes, just the things we are needing.

14,025. Is that the way in which all the people in your neighbourhood do with their eggs?-I cannot say it is the way with the whole of them. Perhaps some of them may take them to other places for anything they want; but I believe most of the people dispose of them in that way to Mr. Sutherland.

14,026. Do you know Robert Murray at Swinister-Yes.

14,027. He is a merchant there, and keeps a shop?-Yes.

14,028. Does he sometimes buy fish?-He buys small fish, like what are called hand-line fish, or fish caught with lines near the shore; but I cannot say whether he has the summer time or not. He may have, for anything I know.

14,029. Does he sometimes engage people to fish for him in the winter or spring or summer?-I don't know.

14,030. Do you know whether he once engaged a [Page 350] man named Peter Williamson?-I heard so. I heard that Williamson was bargained to fish to Robert Murray, and that Mr Robertson would not allow him to do so. I never asked Mr Robertson about that.

14,031. Are you a relation of Mr Robertson?-I am his cousin.

14,032. Does Murray sometimes buy fish in the same way as the yaggers do?-He buys fish in his own shop; but I don't know that he goes to the Skerrries, or anywhere at a distance to buy fish.

14,033. Do the men sometimes go to him when they want a little ready money or supplies that cannot be got at Vidlin?-There are none of the fishermen at Lunnasting who go to him, so far as I am aware.

14,034. Is his place a long way from where you live?-Yes; it takes me a good day when I go there by sea, and it is a long way by land; but I never sold a tail of fish to him in my life.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, MARGARET JAMIESON, examined

14,035. Do you live in Quarff?-Yes.

14,036. Are you sometimes employed in knitting?-Yes, in knitting and dressing. I have also a little farm which I work, but I generally work at the knitting and dressing when I can get that kind of work to do. The farm is my brother's but he is very ill.

14,037. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it given out to you by the merchants?-I always knit with wool which I purchase for myself.

14,038. What kind of things do you knit?-Shawls, veils, haps, plaids, and other things.

14,039. Are you always paid for these in goods?-I sold a plaid to Mr Sinclair in the spring when I was unwell, and did not get it settled for until the summer. The price of the article was 18s., and I asked a halfpenny from him, and he refused to give it to me.

14,040. Did he not give you the halfpenny?-He gave it to me in the end, because I had to post a letter, and I got the halfpenny from him for that purpose.

14,041. Was the postage of that letter only a halfpenny?-No, but I had another halfpenny of my own, and I required the halfpenny from him to buy a stamp with. On Wednesday last I sold a plaid to him for 20s. and asked 2s. in cash at the end of the settlement, but they refused to give it to me. I then asked 1s. 6d., and they said if I got that they would mark it as 1s. 9d. against me.

14,042. Who said that?-It was one of the serving-men in Mr Sinclair's shop; I don't know his name. Then I asked 1s., and he said it would be 1s. 3d. against me; but I refused to take it on that footing. I then asked for 9d. which he consented to give me, saying he did not have it in the shop, but that he would borrow it from one of the clerks or serving-men.

14,043. Did he say he did not have 9d. in the shop?-Yes. I got 6d. and left 3d. due, which I could not get unless I took calico.

14,044. You did not put him to the trouble of borrowing the 9d.?- He borrowed 4d. from one of the persons there, and he found 2d. in the counter.

14,045. Do you think there was no money in the till at that time?- I do not know anything about it except what he told me. I consider from my own experience, and from what I hear from others, that we are very much like the Hebrews of Egypt,-very much burdened down with many things, and not able to bear our burdens.

14,046. When you took the shawl in the other day, which you sold for a pound, did you bargain that you were to get payment for it in goods?-There was no bargain made about it.

14,047. When you sold the shawl in the previous spring, was it marked down in an account, or did you get a line for it?-I got a line for it.

14,048. Did you send in your shawl?-No; I went in and sold it and asked a line, which I got.

14,049. Did you not want the goods at the time?-I got some goods and the balance in a line.

14,050. But you did not want to take the whole in goods?-No, I refused to do that. I did not want them until afterwards.

14,051. Does it often happen that you don't want goods when you sell your shawls, and that you would rather have money?-We would rather have money, because there are many things that we require it for. There are many taxes we have to pay, and there are many things we can only buy with money.

14,052. Would you take a lower price for your hosiery if you could get cash instead of goods?-I don't know, because goods will help us through a part of the year as well as if we got a little money. I consider our hosiery is worth what we sell it at, even although it was paid in cash.

14,053. Where do you get your wool?-I get it from any person who has wool, and who will exchange it for a little tea or hosiery, or a bit of calico or yellow cotton.

14,054. Do you spin it yourself?-Always. I am not able to get it spun for me, because that has to be paid for in money, and I cannot get the money.

14,055. Are you not able to pay for worsted?-No, because it has to be paid for in money; and I am not able to put the wool to the spinner, because that would require money too.

14,056. Do you sometimes have to pay money for wool?-If we can get a day's work or anything of that kind to do, we may get a little wool in exchange for it, but it is not very often we can get that.

14,057. Have the people who sell wool generally a fixed price for it?-Yes, according to the fineness or coarseness of it.

14,058. What do you pay for the finer wool?-It may be about 1s. 6d., according to the quality of it. I think the cheapest we can get is 1s.

14,059. But you get it by barter; do you give goods for it at the same price as you paid for them?-Generally we give a parcel of goods, and they will give us so much wool as they think it is worth. It is never priced at all; we merely give a small parcel of tea in exchange for so much.

14,060. Do you sometimes buy wool at the shops in Lerwick?- No, I cannot say that I ever bought any there.

14,061. Have you any sheep of your own?-Very few. We sometimes get wool from them, but not much.

14,062. Have you sold wool from them?-Never.

14,063. Can you not get as much wool off your own sheep as serves you for your own work?-No, we don't have so many of them as that.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.

14,064. Do you wish to say anything about the evidence which Margaret Jamieson has just given?-Yes. I wish to explain that those in the shop have no power to give money except by referring to my father. Then with regard to the want of money in the shop, it may have happened that my father had taken the money with him to the bank, as very often happens. Frequently when there is some small change in the drawer, it is given away upon lines or something of that kind. I suppose that is the explanation of what the witness has said.

14,065. But I suppose the practice is that you don't give money at all unless you can help it?-If the bargain is made for money, then we give money; but I don't see that we have any right to give money when the bargain is made for goods, any more than if the bargain had been made for goods we could compel them to take money for it. Sometimes my father is [Page 351] very unwilling to take hosiery, and would rather not buy it, either for goods or money. That is frequently the case when he is not requiring the article, or when the article is of inferior value.

14,066. Was what the witness said correct about 1s. 6d. being offered to her in money for 1s. 9d. and 1s. for 1s. 3d.?-It depends on circumstances. In some cases if an article was sold at 1s. for goods, the person might get 9d. or 10d. for it in money, according as the article was worth it. If it was an article which we had a special order for, we would perhaps give 10d., because we would soon get the money back again; but if it was an article that was likely to lie for some time, we would only give 9d. for it.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, senior, examined.

14,067. You are a merchant in Lerwick, and tacksman of the estate of Lunna?-I am.

14,068. Have you a fish-curing establishment at Vidlin?-It is at Skerries. We take a few fish at Vidlin, but there is not much done there.

14,069. But you have a store at Vidlin?-Yes.

14,070. Have you also a curing establishment in Lerwick?-We do very little with it. We sometimes take a few dried fish here.

14,071. You were present to-day and heard the evidence of some men from Lunnasting parish?-Yes.

14,072. Do you wish to make any observation or any statement with regard to that evidence?-I think there are no particular observations I can make, except with regard to the difference between the charges for goods in Lerwick and in the country. We always have some additional expense upon the goods which are sent to the country, but we make the difference as small as we possibly can.

14,073. What should you say was the difference between the prices charged at Vidlin and those which you would charge in Lerwick?-Perhaps from 21/2 to 5 per cent.; but the fact is, that for some things the prices are the same. For instance, cotton goods are the same price.

14,074. Can you land them at Vidlin at very nearly the same price, as at Lerwick?-Yes. The amount of freight would be very small, and we make a point to sell them at the same rates. I put on the prices myself, and I know that we sell these articles at the same price as here.

14,075. I understand the men on the Lunna estate are under obligation by the tenure on which they hold their land to fish for you?-Yes, if they fish at Skerries. Mr. Bell has booths and beaches there; and seventeen years ago he applied to me about them. I was very reluctant to go into the matter at all, but he asked me to assist him, and I agreed to do it, and we have been dealing in that way ever since.

14,076. Has Mr. Bell an interest in that yet, except that he receives his rent from you?-No. He has no interest in it whatever, except that by his arrangement with me he is secure in getting his rent.

14,077. Have you any fishermen fishing for you who are tenants upon other estates than that of Lunna?-Not at that place. I have had several people in Nesting, on Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground. They have fished for me perhaps for thirty years; but it is very little they do, and they generally give their fish dry.

14,078. Are these winter or summer fish?-Both winter and summer.

14,079. What do you pay for a fisherman's summer fish of his own curing?-Their own fish are generally never so well cured as when cured by the merchants themselves. This year I paid the men £21 for their own cure, and I don't think I could get above that for them. For my own cure the current price was per ton.

14,080. What were the circumstances connected with the case of Peter Williamson who had come under an engagement to Robert Murray at Swinister last season?-I don't know what engagement he came under to Murray, but Williamson denied it to me. All I can say about it is that he is a tenant of Mr. Bell's, and that when he settled his account at Vidlin with me it was understood he was to fish again; but one of his partners had engaged to go with another boat of mine, and he (Williamson) did not know very well whether he would manage to get a boat for the fishing or not. I suppose he had made some kind of statement to Robert Murray about that; but at that time Williamson was really very much indebted to me. I had kept him and his family alive with meal for year after year, and he was very far behind; and it would scarcely have done to have allowed him to go anywhere he liked. I got a crew for him, and then he was quite willing to go and fish for me. I think he ought to have asked me first before he made any promise to any other body, because he knew that it was the rule on the estate to fish for me if they fished from Skerries at all. There are many of the Lunna tenants who never fish for me, but who fish for Mr. Adie or go to Faroe and Greenland, and I never stop them from doing that at all.

14,081. It is not part of the understanding that any men who go to Faroe or Greenland should go in your boats?-No.

14,082. If a man goes to Faroe or Greenland, he is free to go for whoever he likes?-Yes.

14,083. Is he free if he stays at home?-If he goes to Skerries, as there is an establishment there belonging to the estate, and which must be kept up, it is understood that any man going there must fish for me; but Mr. Adie has a good many of Mr. Bell's tenants fishing for him, and when people go to Feideland I never interfere with them.

14,084. Are there many of them who go so far as Feideland?- Yes, a good many. The Delting tenants do that.

14,085. I understand you had a considerably smaller number of men employed last year than you had some years ago?-Yes; they had succeeded very well for two or three years previously, and they had received a good deal of supplies, and I did not ask or force anybody to go to the fishing unless they chose. I told them that if they could do better otherwise, I should be very glad if they did so; but I am sorry to say that those tenants who fished elsewhere, or who went to Greenland, did not seem better off.

14,086. How do you engage your beach boys and curers at Skerries?-I generally engage them by the week.

14,087. Are they mostly connected with the Lunna estate?-Yes, generally; but sometimes I engage others.

14,088. Then you don't pay, as they do in other places, a beach fee by the year?-We settle with them at the year's end. We cannot very well do otherwise.

14,089. Are they engaged on weekly wages?-Yes.

14,090. That is to say, the wage is counted by the week?-Yes.

14,091. It is not a fee for the season?-No; it used to be, but I found it better to pay them by the week, and let them know what they have to get.

14,092. Is that wage fixed at the commencement of the season?- Generally it is, but sometimes it is not. Sometimes we don't know what the boys can do, as we have not tried them; and we like to see what they are fit for before we arrange what they are to be paid. We generally give them what we consider a fair thing.

14,093. These people, you say, are settled with at the end of the year, and they have been taking supplies as they require them?- Yes; they require little meal and other things to live upon.

14,094. Do they get these at Skerries in the course of the season?-Yes.

14,095. And these supplies are accounted for at settling time?- Yes.

14,096. Have the people so employed in curing generally a balance to get, or do they generally exhaust [Page 352] their wages in supplies?-That depends very much upon the disposition of the party.

14,097. But what is the fact in the general run of cases?-We generally have a balance to pay them. The dealings of these beach people are usually small. They cannot be very large, but they generally have a balance in their favour, and they get what is due to them in cash as soon as we ascertain its amount.

14,098. Do they get a small sum of cash, if they want it, in the course of the season, for any particular purpose?-Yes; I keep cash at the station for that particular purpose, so that none of the men may be disappointed if they want it.

14,099. But I suppose it is a very small proportion which they ask for in cash?-They cannot expect much. They don't need it.

14,100. They have nothing to do with it at a place like that?-No; but whenever they want it they get it; and sometimes when they get cash, they don't put it to the best purpose. They are near a spirit shop there.

14,101. Is that Mr. Adie's?-Yes.

14,102. Is his the only spirit shop there?-Yes.

14,103. Do you think people supply themselves more with liberally with spirits and other luxuries in the fishing season than they do during the rest of the year?-I think not, generally.

14,104. They are working harder at that time, are they not?-Yes.

14,105. And they would require a larger supply?-Yes; but the men are not very much addicted to that. A few individuals may be; but the men, upon the whole, are not extravagant in that way.

14,106. I noticed that a purchase of meal was made by Thomas Hutchison in Skerries at your shop about January 1868. Can you tell me what the current price of meal was at that date?-I was told it was in 1867, and I looked up the prices for that year.

14,107. I have found, however, that it was in 1868. What do you think the price was at that time?-I would not like to say, because the price of meal varies so much; but I will look my books, and mention what it was.

14,108. You were engaged in the herring fishing one time, I understand?-Yes; and I unfortunately am a little engaged in it still. It has been a complete failure lately.

14,109. What is the nature of the arrangement with the men in that fishing?-The men are generally understood to have the nets and the boats. The boats are their own property. If a crew wants a boat, which costs from £17 to £18, I have to pay for it; but I wish them to have the name of owning the boat, and I charge them hire, although the hires really cannot pay the price. I wish them to call the boats their own, and I do not debit them with the price, but it is charged in a separate account to the crew.

14,110. Is that account debited yearly with the hire of the boat?- Yes.

14,111. How do you arrange about the nets?-They are also entered in a separate account for the crew.

14,112. How is the payment for the fish arranged?-The men get one half of the fish for their labour, and the other half goes to the credit of the boat and nets. It is entered to the credit of the boat and net account, and the other half of the fish goes to their own account.

14,113. Is there a fixed hire for the boat and nets?-There is no fixed hire. We generally charge £1 for the herring fishing, and £2, 10s. for the haaf or summer fishing.

14,114. How long does the herring fishing last?-About six weeks; but the men rarely go to it at all, because lately there have been no herrings on the coast.

14,115. Then it is hardly a hire that is paid for the boat and nets, but you furnish both and get one half of the fish?-Yes.

14,116. There is no account for the boat and nets, except that you take one half of the fish and the other half is divided among the men, without any other deduction, unless for the amount of any account which they may have incurred?-Yes.

14,117. Is the price of the herring fixed at the commencement of the season?-I never made any arrangement about that with them, but usually paid the price which Messrs. Hay & Co. paid. But we have got none to pay for lately at all.

14,118. How long has that fishing been in existence here?-For four years with me, but there has been a herring fishing existing here for a long time.

14,119. Are Messrs. Hay the principal parties engaged in it?-Yes.

14,120. Then the herring fishing here is not conducted on the same principle as at Wick?-It is not.

14,121. No price per cran has been fixed at the beginning of the season?-I think not.

14,122. Is there any particular reason for that?-I don't know any reason for it at all.

14,123. I suppose it has been rather assimilated to the other fishing speculations of Shetland?-I believe so.

14,124. The arrangement you enter into is as nearly as possible the same as exists in the other branches of the fishing trade here?- Yes.

14,125. There is a settlement at the end of the year for the summer fishing?-Yes. The men are settled with for both branches of the fishing together.

14,126. In a letter which you wrote and sent along with the returns you have made, you say, 'In the year 1868 I paid about £300 in cash advances for the people on the herring fishing alone, which has since then turned out a complete failure. These circumstances account for the large amount of debt shown to be due in the year 1870.' Does that mean that when the people went to the herring fishing you had to make considerable advances to them in cash?- I may explain that these men had been fishing for Mr. Adie, and a number of them were due him money on account, and I paid all their advances and cleared them off with Mr. Adie. I took them into my own hands, and of course these sums had to be debited in the men's accounts.

14,127. At that time had you gone into the herring fishing more largely than before?-Yes.

14,128. Had you no men engaged in the herring fishing then who had been fishing for you in the home fishing before?-No, I had not been in the herring fishing for twelve years before.

14,129. But had you any man who had been engaged in the home fishing of the year before for you?-Yes; the men had all been engaged at the ling fishing for me, but they fished for Mr. Adie in the herring fishing as soon as the ling fishing was over, and some of them seemed anxious for a change, and others not.

14,130. For what change?-That I should have the herring fishing as well as the ling fishing. It was their own request that I should begin the herring fishing again, and I thought it was as well to do it.

14,131. Had they had accounts with Mr. Adie, as regards the herring fishing, separate from what they ran for the time they were employed in the ling fishing with you?-Yes.

14,132. Did Mr. Adie go out of the herring fishing altogether when these men left him?-No. He is in it still, but he had not so many hands employed in after they left him as he had before.

14,133. You thought it a reasonable thing, when you took away his herring fishers, that you should take their accounts with them?- Yes; that was suggested by some of the men to me, and I intimated to Mr. Adie that some of the men wanted it, and that it would be as well to carry it out.

14,134. Did the men say to you that they had accounts with Mr. Adie?-I knew that.

14,135. And perhaps they demurred a little, or felt little difficulty in leaving him in that state of matters?-They did not say much about that, but I thought it was fair to clear Mr. Adie if I took away the men who had been engaged to him.

14,136. Have you ever known such an arrangement [Page 353] being made when a change of employment took place in any other branch of the fishing business?-No.

14,137. If a man shifted from one employer to another in the home fishing, has it been usual for the new employer to take over any debt that the man may have incurred to the previous employer?-I should suppose that would be reasonable, but I am not aware that it has been generally the case.

14,138. Have you known any instances where it has occurred?-I think I remember one or two instances.

14,139. But you don't know of any special arrangement between merchants to that effect?-No.

14,140. And you have not entered into any such arrangement yourself?-No.

14,141. Did any of the men object to the debt which they had incurred to Mr. Adie being transferred to you?-No; I think they were rather pleased at it, because they were afraid Mr. Adie would have been hard upon them for it.

14,142. Might he have been harder after they left his service?- There is no doubt he would, and he would have had a right to be so.

14,143. Do you purchase kelp on the Lunna estate?-Yes.

14,144. Does your tack include a lease of the kelp shores?-In point of fact I have no tack, but merely a letter, and just now I am acting upon a verbal agreement from year to year. I can give it up whenever I choose, on giving it short intimation.

14,145. Does that arrangement include the kelp shores?-Yes.

14,146. What is the price allowed by you for kelp?-4s. 6d. when paid in goods.

14,147. Is there a different price when it is paid for in cash?-Mr. Sutherland manages that matter; but I am pretty sure that he pays only 4s. in cash, and anybody can get that who chooses.

14,148. But I suppose most of them take it in goods-Many of them do. It is it very convenient way for them, and the goods are not charged any higher in consequence, but we consider that the profit on the goods enables us to give a higher price.

14,149. How many of the women may be employed in that way?- Perhaps about sixty, taking it as a rough guess.

14,150. All these people, I presume, have accounts open at the shop at Vidlin, as I have seen to be the case in other parts of Shetland?-Yes. We would be very glad if the accounts were less, but really it is impossible to work with the people without them. It is almost impossible to get the balances brought down, but we never refuse them cash when they have it to get.

14,151. Do you purchase wool to any extent?-No, I don't do anything in the hosiery line.

14,152. Do you think it would be possible to carry on the fish-curing business here profitably without combining it with the other business in the shop at Vidlin?-I don't see how it could be done.

14,153. But supposing it could be done,-supposing the people could get their supplies elsewhere,-would the fish-curer be able to carry on his business at profit?-All they would do in that case would merely be to take a commission, as they now do, for selling the fish. They calculate upon getting that commission at present, and that is what they would expect under another system; but the people unfortunately cannot do without these supplies. Some of the men, however, are well off. For instance, the man Laurence Simpson, who was examined today, is very well off and can do without advances. He can buy his meal wherever he chooses.

14,154. Would it be a profitable thing for the fish-curer if he were content with that commission, without having a profit on his goods?-Perhaps that might be done, but I don't know.

14,155. Is there any other point you wish to mention?-I have heard some of the men who have been examined here, saying that they would like their freedom. I have no objection to any man having his freedom and being allowed to cure his fish for himself, but I suspect such a system would destroy the character of the fish in the country if it were gone into. The fish would be injured by it; I know that by experience. The cure would not be so good as it is at present.

14,156. But if the men had their freedom, would they not employ a factor for themselves or would it not come to this in the end, that the men would sell their fish to any curer who was most convenient for them?-Many of them would cure their own fish, which they do now in some places, but we never can get the quality of the fish good enough when they are cured in that way. They cannot be put in among fine fish, because the men do not dry them so well as they ought to be, and they will not keep for any length of time.

14,157. Would they not very soon find that out, and either employ a fish-factor for the curing of their fish upon the co-operative system, or return virtually to the present system and sell their fish to any merchant who would take them, with the exception that he would pay for them in ready money?-I am afraid any change of that kind would affect the quality of the fish.

14,158. But if it affected the quality of the fish, the men would soon find that they did not get so good a price for them?-Yes.

14,159. And they would either return to the old system, or to some one under which the curing of the fish would be equally good. The men would not be content permanently to take a lower price?-They might be obliged to take a lower price, although they did not know it.

14,160. But I have been told today that the Shetland people are a very intelligent class, and they would surely have intelligence enough to discover that they were getting a lower price than they might get for their produce?-Some of them are intelligent, and no doubt they would discover that.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, examined.

14,161. Are you a clerk in the employment of Mr. Leask?-I am.

14,162. How long have you been in his service?-About nineteen years.

14,163. Have you been principally concerned with the engagement and settling with seamen employed in the Greenland whale fishing?-Principally, of late, since the settlement at the Custom House was commenced. That was five years ago.

14,164. Were you not employed in that way before?-Yes; not altogether, but along with others.

14,165. Before that time, the accounts of the men, I understand, were always settled at Mr. Leask's office?-Always.

14,166. And the men were paid merely the balance in cash?- They were paid the balance, but they had to get cash during the currency of their account besides that. They always got advances of cash in the course of the year if they wanted them.

14,167. The balance that was paid to them at the end in cash was the settlement for their wages and their first payment of oil-money?-Yes.

14,168. Was the settlement for the final payment of oil-money generally made at a later period?-Always at a later period.

14,169. Was there always a settlement before the last payment of oil-money became due?-Always, except when they happened to be in debt.

14,170. They might be in debt to a greater amount than anything that was due to them?-They might, but of course, if a man had money to get, he was sure to come forward when he required it.

14,171. Were the accounts which were run with the men at that time larger than you now allow them to incur?-I should say not.

[Page 354]

14,172. Are there some men even now who are indebted at settlement to the full amount of their wages and oil-money?- Very few.

14,173. But that does occur?-It may be the case with some of the young hands.

14,174. Does that happen now as often as formerly?-I daresay it does. It depends on the success of the voyage; but we are rather more particular now than we used to be.

14,175. In what way are you more particular now?-We know better what time the voyage will occupy and we always keep within the mark as far as possible.

14,176. Is there less security now for getting your money paid at the proper time than there was formerly?-I cannot say that we have experienced that.

14,177. Previous to 1867, you said the settlement of the men's accounts generally took place before the last payment of oil-money was due?-Yes, always.

14,178. Was that not so only in the greater number of cases?-It was always the case. The final payment was only a few shillings in general, and it was usually a considerable time before the owners advised us what amount of oil the vessel had turned out; so that if a man had the bulk of his wages to get, he generally got them a long time before the second payment of oil-money came.

14,179. Was the second payment usually made before the man engaged for another voyage if he was going?-In some cases; but if the man lived at a considerable distance from Lerwick, he would not come in for the few shillings which were due him for his second payment until he was about to engage again.

14,180. How was that second payment made? Was it in money, or generally in goods?-If the man had the money coming to him, it was usually paid in money; but sometimes he may have got a little advance on his second payment.

14,181. If that was the case it would be in his account?-Yes, a continuation of his previous account; but we did not care much about advancing on second payments, because they were so uncertain. The vessel might not turn out nearly so much as was expected.

14,182. You are aware that a new system was introduced about 1867 or 1868?-Yes.

14,183. And since that time you have been employed in going up to the Custom House to settle with the men?-Yes.

14,184. Do you take a quantity of cash up with you and hand it over to the men in presence of the superintendent?-Yes.

14,185. Have you, since that system began, invariably taken up your ledgers containing the men's accounts, or any note of the amount of their accounts, with you?-Of course we have never taken up the books.

14,186. Did you at any time take any notes or abstracts of the men's accounts?-I always took a note of the sum which each man had to get.

14,187. Was that a note of the sum which each man had to get for wages and oil-money?-No; it was a note of the actual amount due to the men, because each man had an account of wages furnished to him previously.

14,188. Had he received that from the captain?-No; the account of wages was made up by the agent on shore from the captain's store-book.

14,189. Is that account of wages always made up by the agent and handed to the men before settlement?-Yes.

14,190. Is it not sometimes taken up with you to the settlement?- The man always carries it up with him.

14,191. When you go up to the Custom House, are you provided with any note of the amount of the man's account due to Mr. Leask?-In the first years, I think we had that occasionally.

14,192. In what form did you take that up?-Just slip.

14,193. Was that a note of all the items in the account?-No

14,194. It was just a note of the total sum due to Mr. Leask?-Yes.

14,195. Have you not done so since the first year?-I think not.

14,196. When did you last take such a slip with you to the Custom House?-I think not after the first year, so far as I can recollect.

14,197. The first year of what?-The first year, say, 1867; I think I have not done it since that time.

14,198. Can you not tax your memory so far as to say whether or not you had it in 1870?-I did not have it in 1870; I am quite sure of that.

14,199. Nor in 1871?-Nor in 1871.

14,200. May you have had it in 1869?-I think not.

14,201. Was the last time you had it in 1868?-To the best of my recollection I think it was.

14,202. May you have had it in 1869, although you don't remember?-I think not, but I cannot be quite positive.

14,203. But you are quite clear about 1870, that you had no note whatever of the men's accounts with you, except what was entered in the account of wages?-Yes. I did not require it then. It could do no good.

14,204. Why was it required in 1868?-Because sometimes the men settled their accounts at the Custom House.

14,205. Would that be done often?-Sometimes; but not as a rule, I think.

14,206. When these regulations were introduced, and you first went up to the Custom House to settle, was it not intended that all the accounts should be settled there and then?-That was the regulation.

14,207. Was it intended that all Mr. Leask's accounts should be paid at the same time that the men got their money handed over in presence of the superintendent?-There was no formal proposal about that.

14,208. Was it not done in some cases?-In some cases it was, when the men agreed to do it.

14,209. Did the superintendent object to that?-He did not object. The whole money was paid down to the men, and sometimes they gave back what they knew they had to give back.

14,210. Would that be done in one half of the cases?-I could not speak to a proportion.

14,211. When they did not hand back then what was due to Mr. Leask, what was done?-They handed it back when they came down to the office afterwards.

14,212. Do they come down to the office now and pay their accounts after being settled with at the Custom House?-Yes.

14,213. Do you settle with five or six or a dozen of them at a time, as the case may be?-Yes, any number, from one up to a dozen, or perhaps more.

14,214. Is the settlement with these men after they have got their cash always carried out and finished on the same day at Mr. Leask's office?-Yes, invariably.

14,215. Do they come straight down from the Custom House to the office and pay their accounts there?-They generally come in the course of the day.

14,216. Do they come down along with you?-If it is only one man who has been settled with, perhaps we will come down together, and perhaps not, just as it happens. I have no fear for them coming down. I never bother my head about them after I give them the money.

14,217. Do you leave them to come down or not as they please?- Decidedly.

14,218. Is there never a black sheep to whom you have to suggest the propriety of coming straight down?-The men know they have the money to pay, and they look upon it as a just debt.

14,219. Is there not a note kept if a man fails to come down?-We are not likely to forget that. There is no note of it kept.

14,220. Do you note the fact that you have settled with him for his wages and oil-money?-Yes. The account is squared at once as soon as we come down from the Custom House.

14,221. Do you not note the fact in some form or [Page 355] other, that the man has not come down to settle his account when he has failed to do so?-No, the book would show that without any note. I may say, however, that I have scarcely ever had a case of that kind, except it may be one.

14,222. Was that Robert Grains?-Yes; and even he did come down ultimately and settle his account. He was settled with along with about a dozen others, and they all went down. Some of them had been settled with before I came down from the Custom House, but he did not come until I came myself.

14,223. Did he come down with you?-No; he came down himself. I believe the other lads induced him to come back to the shop and settle his account.

14,224. Had he at first refused to do so?-He had been telling the lads that he was going to keep the money or most of the money. I think they said he wanted to go right away and never come near the shop at all, but they induced him to come.

14,225. Did he give any reason for wanting to go away?-Nothing, except that he wanted the money for some other purpose.

14,226. Was his account for goods equal to the whole amount of his wages?-He had about £1 to get.

14,227. That means that he had all his money to hand over to you except £1?-Yes.

14,228. Did you speak to him on the subject?-I did. I asked him if he meant to swindle us out of the money for the outfit that he got to enable him to go to Greenland.

14,229. Was it at the Custom House you said that to him?-No, it was at the office after he had come down. He said no, but that he required money to pay for a boat or to buy a boat, or something of that kind.

14,230. Did that happen on the day of settlement?-Yes.

14,231. Had you understood before that he was intending to go away without paying your account?-No, I had no idea of it.

14,232. Then how did you happen to ask him that question?-He came back to the office after he came out from the Custom House, and he was going to give back part of the money, but he wanted to keep more than he actually had to get after paying Mr. Leask's account.

14,233. But how did you know that he required persuasion to induce him to come back and pay his account?-I recollect the other lads telling me that they had induced him to come back.

14,234. Had they told you about that before Grains came down?- I scarcely think so. I think there were several of them there along with him when I came down.

14,235. Did he come down from the Custom House along with you?-No.

14,236. Was he at the office when you came down from the Custom House?-I am not quite sure whether he was actually there when I came down, but most of that crew were discharged that day. They had been landed the day before, and most of them were discharged on the day after they landed.

14,237. I don't quite understand how you knew about Grains having been unwilling to pay his account?-I knew it when he came to the office to give back the money that I had paid him at the Custom House.

14,238. Did he refuse to give you back the money?-He did; not all, but part of it.

14,239. Did he want to pay only a portion of his account?-Yes.

14,240. Did he say that to you when he came to the office?-Yes.

14,241. Was that the first intimation you had got of his intention to keep part of the money?-I think so.

14,242. Did you object to that, and tell him he must pay the whole?-I did.

14,243. Did you intimate what the consequences would be if he did not?-Yes; I daresay I told him that we would pull him up. I considered that we had run a considerable risk in giving him an outfit for his first year at Greenland, and that we were entitled to get the advance repaid, because we might never see him again.

14,244. Have you had occasion to advise any of the men on other occasions as to the propriety of paying agents' accounts, or giving them similar advice to what you gave in the case of Grains?-No; I think that was the only case which has occurred out of many hundreds.

14,245. Have the men always walked down quietly enough to your office?-Yes.

14,246. And often in company with you?-Very often. Perhaps, if there was one, he came back with me; but, as a rule, I would often stay behind for a little, or go down to the office by some other way.

14,247. Then possibly the men may have gone to the office before you?-They often did.

14,248. When you had a batch of them at the Custom House, did you not send some of them down to the office direct, while you waited to finish your settlement with the others?-They were settled with one by one; and they went away as they were settled with.

14,249. But as they were settled with, did you not send them down to the office?-They went of their own accord.

14,250. Did you never tell them to go to the office?-They knew to go.

14,251. Did you never tell them?-I have seen me telling them to go as soon as possible, because I wanted them to be settled with and away before I came down. Mr. Robertson generally would be waiting for them, and he might have to go out.

14,252. Do you mean that Mr. Robertson would be expecting them?-Yes.

14,253. And he might have other engagements which he had to attend to as soon as their business was over?-Yes.

14,254. Therefore I suppose you may often have had occasion to tell them to go down to the shop direct from the Custom House?- I may have told them to go as soon as possible.

14,255. Did you not always do so?-No.

14,256. Did you not always tell them so when you thought it was necessary?-No.

14,257. Do you mean that you may have thought it necessary for them to go to the shop and settle, and that yet you refrained from telling them so?-I never thought much about it at all. I just gave them the money; and sometimes I would tell them to go to the shop as soon as possible, because Mr. Robertson would be waiting for them. Sometimes that was about the dinner-hour, and very often they would not be there until I came down myself. I would be engaged settling with them up till three o'clock.

14,258. Did you consider that it was not necessary on every occasion to tell them to go back to the shop?-Yes.

14,259. Was that because the men understood quite well that they were to go to the shop and settle their accounts?-The men understood that quite well. They understood they had got the money that was due to them from the shop, and they understood that in general they had accounts in the shop for cash or goods, and sometimes for advances to their families, and they required no persuasion to go and repay these sums when they had got their money.

14,260. Did they know that they were expected to go down to the shop?-They were expected to go.

14,261. But did they know that they were expected?-They knew it.

14,262. So that, although they might have had debts due to other merchants, they were expected to go down and pay Mr. Leask in the first instance?-Yes.

14,263. And you expected that, although those debts to other merchants might have been incurred earlier than Mr. Leask's?- The debt contracted on the voyage was the first debt to be settled, and it was always understood that that debt had first to be paid, because it was all incurred during the voyage.

14,264. You mean that it had been incurred for the purpose of the voyage, and you held that you had a [Page 356] prior claim on the proceeds of that voyage for the amount of your account, just as a merchant has a lien on the supplies he furnishes to a shop?-Yes.

14,265. Would you have objected to the men going away and paying the earlier accounts before they paid Mr. Leask's?-Of course, if they paid them out of that money.

14,266. Had you instructions from Mr. Leask, or Mr. Robertson, or any one in Mr. Leask's employment, to see that the men did come down and pay their accounts?-I had no such instructions.

14,267. Did you consider that a part of your duty?-I did not consider it to be any part of my duty at all. If I had a dozen men to settle with, I settled with them one after another, and they went away. I did not tell them to stay there until I came with them, or follow them down by any means.

14,268. Was it no part of your duty to warn a man who was going away without paying, that he had first to settle his account at the shop?-No, I never saw a man who went away without paying.

14,269. But suppose the case of a man who did so: was it any part of your duty to remind him of the debt which he was due to Mr. Leask?-No. They did not require any reminding. They knew quite well about it.

14,270. Why did you cease to settle with the men in the Custom House after 1868?-Because the shipping master objected, and would not allow it to be done.

14,271. Was it to you, or in your presence, that he took that objection?-Yes, I was present.

14,272. Did he take the objection in any particular case when a settlement of that kind was going on with the men?-No, there was no particular case.

14,273. Did he do so at a time when you were settling with a man?-Yes; either with a man, or two or three men, I forget which.

14,274. What took place then?-The men just went to the office.

14,275. Did you remonstrate with the superintendent?-No.

14,276. You just went down to the office with the men, and settled with them there?-The men went to the office, and I finished my business at the Custom House and went down too.

14,277. Did you consider it a grievance to be prevented from settling with the men in the Custom House?-If the men were agreeable for it, I thought there was nothing wrong in it. It was entirely with their concurrence that it was done.

14,278. Is there anything else you wish to say wish to say?-I wish to say that I have examined the books, and I find that Mr. Jack Williamson's rent at Ulsta was not advanced after Mr. Leask purchased the property. I now show the valuation roll of 1860, where it is entered at £8, 10s., and in 1871 it is entered at the same sum. That rent included the farm and all accommodation-the shop, beach, booth, and everything.

14,279. I see he was tenant of an additional subject in 1871, for which he paid a rent of 10s.; and of grazing park at Ulsta at a rent of £6?-Yes; but the 10s. includes the dwelling-house, shop, farm, and all accommodation he had about the place.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ADAM TAIT, examined.

14,280. You are a shopman to Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I am.

14,281. Did you purchase a hap lately from Margaret Jamieson, Quarff, who has been examined today?-Mr. Sinclair purchased it, and I settled with her for it the time she sold it.

14,282. When was that?-About three days ago. It was a long plaid she sold.

14,283. What was the price of it?-20s. in goods; and that was paid.

14,284. To what extent did you supply her with goods?-I gave her 19s. 6d. worth of goods and 6d. in cash. She wanted 3s. in cash. I told her the bargain was made in goods, and I could not give it to her in cash. Besides, there was no cash in the drawer at the time. Then she thought of something else she wanted, and I borrowed 6d. from the clerk in the end gave it to her.

14,285. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. 6d. in cash it would be charged as 1s. 9d. against her?-I believe I did say that she would be charged 2d. in the shilling if she wanted cash, as the bargain had been made in goods.

14,286. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. in cash it would be charged as 1s. 3d. against her?-No. I merely said it would be 2d. in the shilling. I might have given her the cash she asked if we had had it, but there was no change in the shop at the time, and I had to borrow the sixpence that I gave her.

14,287. On what day was that?-I think it was on Wednesday last, but I am not certain, and about twelve or one o'clock in the day. I recollect the transaction very well, as the woman seemed to be ill-pleased when she went out.

14,288. Is it a frequent thing to tell a woman who asks for cash; that there is no cash in the shop?-No; that does not often happen.

Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

14,289. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to the evidence which has just been given?-I wish to say that it often happens that we have no small change in the shop, unless we get change for £1 and any cash that we get during the day is frequently given out again for goods before night. Therefore it is no evasion to say that there is no cash in the shop, because it is often the fact.

14,290. That happens in a great many shops, and it may happen more frequently in a shop where the cash transactions are few and barter transactions prevail?-Yes; it happens more frequently in that case.

.

LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 29, 1872

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Mrs. CATHERINE WILLIAMSON, recalled.

14,291. I understand you wish to make a correction on the evidence you gave on the first day of this inquiry?-Yes. I stated that I had sold a shawl to Mr. Laurenson; but I should have said it was to Mr. George Laurence, Commercial Street, Lerwick, and not to Mr. Arthur Laurenson.

14,292. Was the rest of your evidence correct?-Yes.

[Page 357]

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, recalled.

14,293. Do you wish to make any addition to your former evidence?-Yes. I wish to say with regard to the Accountant to the Board of Trade's report, that I consider it unjust to the agents concerned in the Greenland trade, and I concur generally in all that was said by Mr. William Robertson on that point.

14,294. Is there any particular fact in that report, apart from matters of opinion, which you think is incorrectly stated?- The report commences: 'In accordance with my instructions, I paid special attention to the circumstances attending the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling vessels, great difficulty and delay having been experienced by the Board of Trade in getting the releases for such voyages completed within anything like a reasonable time.' I do not consider that to be correct. The Board of Trade never fixed a time for the releases to be completed, and consequently the men do not come for their settlement until it suits their own convenience.

14,295. Do you mean that before 1868 no rule existed on that subject?-There is no time fixed even now for the men to come.

14,296. Does not the third head of the regulations provide that, when the men are landed, the master shall deliver the store-book, and that the balances due shall be paid in presence of the superintendent?-The master does deliver the store-book when the crew are landed, but the regulation does not say that the men are to appear immediately before the superintendent. If they would remain in town, that would be done; but they prefer going home, especially when they are not required by the regulations to remain.

14,297. The Merchant Shipping Act provides that the master or owner shall pay the wages of every seaman within three days after the cargo has been delivered, or within five days after the seaman's discharge, whichever first happens?-These are the terms of the Act; but that never was the rule in the Greenland trade, because the men are landed in any part of Shetland the ship first comes to, and the men never come forward to Lerwick to be settled with until it suits them to come.

14,298. I don't know that Mr. Hamilton lays the blame upon the agents for the delay in getting the releases completed?-Not in that sentence, but he does so subsequently in his report. He says, 'When the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion of the crews should not be settled with at once.'

14,299. Do you say that that is not for the agent's interest?-I say that it is not. It is not for his interest to delay the settlement, and the settlement is not delayed by him.

14,300. Is it not for the agent's interest to have the money in his hands as long as possible?-Perhaps if he has the money in his hands, he may make a few shillings of interest; but when the men come forward individually to settle, there is more time spent in making the settlement than any profit he can make can cover. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But no time is fixed for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again, and when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That statement is not consistent with fact.

14,301. Is it not true, as you have already stated, that the seamen do hand back to the agent the money which they have got?-Yes, but it is not true that they are indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount.

14,302. You think the amount of debt is not generally equal to the amount payable in wages?-I am quite sure it is not.

14,303. Was it, at any time in your experience, common for a man to have an amount of debt to the agent equal to the amount of his wages and oil-money?-Very often, when they had made a bad voyage, the younger hands would be in debt.

14,304. Mr. Hamilton says, in another part of his report: 'For this purpose to engage the men at Lerwick, they employ agents in Lerwick, who get, I am informed, little direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men;' is there anything incorrect in that, in point of fact?-It is quite correct that the agents have little direct profit from their agency. The remuneration is quite inadequate for the amount of work and expense connected with the trade. Then he says, 'These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are proprietors of land themselves, or act as land agents for others.' There are only four agents altogether, and there are only two of them who are proprietors of any quantity of land. The others do not act as land agents, so far as ever I heard. 'Many of the men engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage.' That applies chiefly to the young hands, who require extra clothing when going to such a cold climate, and they get it from the agents. 'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in favour of the agents.' I never saw that. It is not done in Mr. Leask's business. Of course I cannot speak with certainty for the others, but am pretty certain it is not done in any case.

14,305. In your experience the seaman takes no allotment note at all, so that the only advances which are got during his absence are those which are made through the agent in the shape of supplies to his family, without any allotment note being required?-Yes. We have always done so.

14,306. But the agent is quite aware that no allotment note has been granted?-Yes.

14,307. So that the effect is just the same as if the allotment note had been given to the agent?-It is not quite the same in settling with them, because we have to pay the whole money to the men; whereas, if an allotment had been granted, it would have been deducted.

14,308. But if there is no allotment note made out to the man, and given to his wife or any of his friends, the agent has not to pay the money away?-No.

14,309. So that he is in perfect safety to make advances in the shape of any supplies which may be required during the man's absence?-He is quite safe to do that if the man pays him back at the end of the voltage.

14,310. At least he is in greater safety than if the man's friends were in a position to draw part of his wages during his absence, because he knows that the wages cannot be spent?-Yes. If the man's family have a note, that is all the advance they require in general; but as it is when a family have a weekly allowance, I should say they get about one half of their allowance in cash.

14,311. Do the families have a weekly allowance from the agent?-In some cases.

14,312. Is that done by private arrangement?-Yes.

14,313. Are these families residing in Lerwick, or mostly in the country?-Mostly in Lerwick. Families residing in the country only send in occasionally for anything they may require, but they are not by any means bound to do it.

14,314. But is it a common thing for the families of men residing in Lerwick, or near it, to get a weekly advance in provisions or in money?-It is quite common.

14,315. Is it mostly in provisions or mostly in money that that advance is given?-I think it is about one half in money. They always get some money.

14,316. Is that entered in the man's account?-Yes. Then it is not correct to say that a man who wants to take his outfit from any shopkeeper is practically debarred from doing so. He can do so if he likes.

14,317. Does he ever do it?-There is no doubt he does.

14,318. Have you ever known any case of a man doing so?-Yes, plenty. We know that when a man does not get goods from us, he must get them somewhere else.

[Page 358]

14,319. But he may have had an outfit before, and did not require a fresh one for that voyage?-He may.

14,320. Have you ever known a man who required an outfit for a voyage taking it from any agent but the one who engaged him?- Yes.

14,321. Can you name any case of that kind?-I could not exactly name a case.

14,322. Could you show me any case in your books in which the man has not got some outfit from you?-Not very many, I think. On short voyages to the sealing, a considerable number of the men would not require it. Men who had been going there for years, and who were only going on a short voyage, would be well enough provided with clothes. Generally men who get good wages are all provided with their necessary outfit.

14,323. But you think you could show me very few cases in your books in which a man did not require some outfit and did not get it from you?-On long voyages perhaps there are not many.

14,324. Did you ever supply an outfit to a man going on a whaling voyage upon the engagement of any of the other agents?-I think not exactly an outfit; but we have sold them individual articles.

14,325. Did you ever do that on credit?-I daresay we have.

14,326. Do you know that you have?-Yes.

14,327. In what case?-I could not exactly name a case, because if a man comes in wanting to buy anything we sell it to him, if the other agent did not have it, or he did not choose to take it from him. I know that has been the case both with us and with others.

14,328. Have you run an account with the man for that?-If he was well known to us, we would have no objection to give him credit.

14,329. But can you name the case of any man who was engaged for the whaling by another agent and who received credit from you?-I could not name a case. It is done just in the ordinary way of trade, and we would not pay any attention to a case like that. We could not be expected to recollect where every customer was going.

14,330. Is it not the case that every man who engages with you does take so much of his outfit as he requires from Mr. Leask's shop?-I think that is very generally the case; but he does it because he chooses to do it, and because, I suppose, he thinks he will be as well served there as by going elsewhere. With regard to the report, again, I say that the greater proportion of the men are settled with in a reasonable time.

14,331. Do you mean within six months?-The greater proportion of them are settled with in one month.

14,332. That is the case now?-Yes.

14,333. But formerly the time was considerably greater, was it not?-I don't think there was much difference. The men came then when it suited them, and they do the same now, except when they are all landed in Lerwick at one time, and choose to stay few days in town to get the settlement carried through. They are not bound to a day now more than they were then; but the releases and official papers in the Custom House can prove the proportion of men discharged within the month.

14,334. Mr. Robertson showed me some accounts with Greenland whaling men in which there was a charge for insurance upon outfits: is that an arrangement made by you with the men?-Yes.

14,335. Have you explained to them the nature of the charge, and why it was made before entering it in your books against them?- Yes; we have been doing that for the last fifteen years at least. If the vessel is lost, then the men don't pay for the outfit; it is paid by the insurance.

14,336. Mr. Leask is also an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, and there is a charge of 3s. made at the beginning of each man's account for a payment to that Fund?-Yes.

14,337. Does that 3s. cover the loss of clothing?-They get that in addition. When the vessel is lost, the man gets an allowance for clothing, and also the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund. He gets the allowance for clothing in this way: that he pays nothing for the goods if the vessel is lost, and then he gets the allowance from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society in addition, and is sent home free if he is landed in any part of the kingdom.

14,338. Therefore that is a double insurance?-Yes.

14,339. If a man is lost, his widow, in return for the 3s., gets an annuity or some allowance?-Yes. The amount of it depends on the number of years he has subscribed, and the number of his family. It varies considerably; but she gets an allowance at first, and generally a small annual grant.

14,340. Is that 3s. paid in every case when the men are going to Greenland?-It is such a small payment, and they have experienced so much benefit from it, that they never object to it now.

14,341. I suppose that charge is entered in a man's account as a matter of course?-Yes.

14,342. You say that if a man who subscribes that 3s. loses his outfit, or his boat, or anything, that is covered by the insurance, and he is entitled to a certain payment, which is made by the agents?-Yes.

14,343. Is that payment always made in cash?-Always.

14,344. How long is it since it has been universally made in cash at your agency?-It has always been made in cash, so far as I had to do with it.

14,345. Do you remember of any sums of a few pounds in cash being paid from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-There are often payments of that kind.

14,346. Do you remember any case of it man being refused payment of his allowance in cash?-No.

14,347. Or being asked to take goods?-No, I don't recollect any such case.

14,348. Do you remember the case of a man named Williamson from Coningsburgh having a claim against Mr. Leask, as agent for the Society, in respect of a loss which he had sustained, and falling within the conditions of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I don't recollect anything about the case or about the man.

14,349. Do you remember any case where the amount due from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund was put to the credit of a person insured, in order to reduce the debt due by him to Mr. Leask?- No, I don't recollect any such case.

14,350. Can you say that that has never been done?-I cannot say that exactly. Perhaps if the man chose to put the money to his account it would be done.

14,351. But can you say it has never been done where the man did not choose to put the money to his account?-It has never been done where the man did not choose, so far as I know.

14,352. Do you know any case in which Mr. Leask has asked the man to do it, or has proposed to do it, and the man has resisted?- No.

14,353. Is an allowance of that kind sometimes put to the credit of a man who has an account in Mr. Leask's books, and taken out in goods in the course of the year?-It may be in some cases.

14,354. Is it not usually the case when a sum of that kind falls due that it is entered to the man's credit?-That is not usually the case, because nobody knows whether it will be paid or not, or whether the man will have a claim to receive money.

14,355. But when you know that it is due, and that it is to be paid, and the man happens to have an account, is the amount not just entered in that account and credited to the man?-It may be in some cases, but it is only when a man is wrecked that he is entitled to any allowance from the Society; we don't know when he is to be wrecked, and therefore he cannot get advances on the faith of a claim against the Society.

14,356. I am not speaking about advances on the faith of a claim; but when the money is due, is it not generally put into the man's account?-Not generally, but there may have been a case or two of that kind.

14,357. Is it generally handed over to him in cash?-Generally.

[Page 359]

14,358. Even when a man has an account, and when the balance of that account is against him?-The man perhaps will not require it to be handed over to him if he had an account and wished the amount of his debt to be reduced by putting that to it. In that case there would be very little occasion for a transfer of the cash, but I can scarcely recollect any cases of that kind.

14,359. I am not asking whether the man wishes it or not, I am asking whether it is ever done, or whether it is generally done?-I should say it is not generally done. I would say it is almost never done.

14,360. How many of these payments have you to make in the course of a year?-In some years there are very few.

14,361. Will there sometimes be a dozen?-Perhaps there may, but I could not say, without the books.

14,362. And you say that out of the dozen payments which you make, one half of them will pass through the men's accounts?- No, I should not say that.

14,363. Should you say that three out of every dozen did so?-No, I should not even say that.

14,364. Should you say that one in every dozen passed through the men's accounts?-I might say one, but I could not be sure. It might be less, or it might be none at all.

14,365. Might it not be more?-It is not a regular business transaction at all, and it is very seldom that such a thing ever enters the accounts. It is a present payment for an accident happening to a man, and he just gets the money, and there is no more about it; but it might happen occasionally that he applied it towards payment of a debt.

14,366. The premium or subscription of 3s. universally passes into the man's account?-Yes.

14,367. I cannot quite see why the payment of a policy should not also go into the man's account if he has one?-It is only when a man is wrecked that such it payment is to be made. There are many men who have been paying for twenty or thirty years, and have never had occasion to claim against the Society, while there are others who have.

14,368. But if a man happens to have an account running with Mr. Leask, do you say that the payment is made to him in cash rather than put in to the account?-No, I don't say that, because the man might make no difficulty in applying it to his account, if he had one; but we are applying for men from different parts of the country who have no account with us, and in these cases the money is paid over at once.

14,369. In the majority of cases in which the money is paid through you when it is due, is it not to the men who have paid their premium through you?-By no means. We issue a great many tickets to men who are not in our employment at all,-men going south, and fishermen on the islands. I think we are generally called upon to make applications in cases of loss in preference to the other agents, and that money is paid over to the men at once.

14,370. Then do you say it is the case that the money is entered in the man's account whenever he has an account with you?-If the man to whom the money was to be paid had an account, it might probably be put to that account; but of course it would only be done with the man's concurrence.

14,371. Did you ever know any man object to that being done?-I cannot say that I ever did.

14,372. Are you sure that you never did?-Yes, I am sure.

14,373. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to correct the statement made in the report, that it is the interest of the agent to delay the settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again. I say that is not the fact.

14,374. Is it not the fact that that is the interest of the agent?-It may be the interest of the agent, but it is never done.

14,375. The report only says that it is the interest of the agent: it does not state that he does it?-I think it does. It says that the man is indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount, and that it is the interest of the agent to delay settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again. What I object to in that statement is the impression conveyed by it, that all the men are in debt to an equal or greater extent than their earnings. I think that is the way in which the statement would naturally be read; but, as a rule, the men do not run accounts after they come home until they settle, and then they will only buy what they require. They are never importuned to buy or to take goods, nor is the settlement delayed for that purpose.

14,376. You say the men are never importuned to buy anything. Are they not asked at settlement if they want anything?-No. Their money is paid them as soon as they call for it, without any demur.

14,377. I know it is; but are they not asked at that time if they want to take any goods?-After they have got their money we may ask them if they want anything; and if they are as well served by us as elsewhere, sometimes they do buy some goods.

14,378. I suppose in a number of cases the men are quite ready to take what they want from your shop, and to pay for it with the cash they have got?-Yes.*

*Mr Jamieson afterwards put in the following Return in supplement of his evidence:- RETURN relative to the Discharge of Greenland Seamen from Vessels for which Mr. JOSEPH LEASK was Agent. Year 1871.

Ship's Name and Voyage No. of men Date of Place of En-gaged Landing Landing

a Camperdown, sealing voyage 33 Apr. 30 Lerwick b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 Apr. 17 Lerwick c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 Apr. 17 Lerwick d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 Apr. 21 Scalloway e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 31 Apr. 17 Lerwick f Victor, sealing voyage 30 June 1 Lerwick g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 19 July 21 near Scalloway h Total 206 62 52 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 20 Oct. 26 Lerwick j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 Oct. 26 Lerwick k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 14 Oct. 29 Scalloway l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 26 Nov. 11 Lerwick Longhope m Total 79

Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in Apr. May June July a Camperdown, sealing voyage 25 b Polynia, sealing voyage 12 11 c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 15 3 d Narwhal, sealing voyage 13 9 e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 22 4 f Victor, sealing voyage 19 5 g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 4 h Total 62 52 19 9 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 14 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage m Total 79

Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in

Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec a Camperdown, sealing voyage 3 1 1 2 b Polynia, sealing voyage 3 6 2 c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 10 2 d Narwhal, sealing voyage 2 2 3 e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 2 1 f Victor, sealing voyage 19 4 1 g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 10 1 1 h Total 33 4 7 13 5 i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 8 10 2 j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 k Narwhal, Davis Straits whaling voyage 13 1 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 21 5 m Total 8 63 8

Ship's Name and Voyage Not Dis- Totals Remarks. charged at Year's End

a Camperdown, sealing voyage 1 33 157 men returned in April, of whom b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 95 were landed in one day. 114 were c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 discharged by the end of May. d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 I requested the rest to return for e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 31 discharge not later than August, when f Victor, sealing voyage 30 the ling fishing terminated. g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 19 h Total 2* 206 * The only cases I ever had. i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits whaling voyage 20 j Polynia, Davis Straits whaling voyage 19 71 out of 79 landed in October and k Narwhal, Davis Straits November were discharged in a month. whaling voyage 14 l Camperdown, Davis Straits Whaling voyage 26 m Total 79

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, WILLIAM BRUCE TULLOCH, examined.

14,379. You are a merchant and shipping agent in Lerwick?-I am.

14,380. You have been engaged as an agent for Greenland [Page 360]whaling vessels for some time?-Yes, on my own account, or as a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., for five years.

14,381. Before that, you were in the employment of Mr. Leask?- Yes.

14,382. I understand you desire to make some statement with regard to the evidence which has already been led upon this subject?-Yes. I heard a part of the evidence of Mr. Wm. Robertson; and some parts of what I heard I could not agree with. In the first place, with reference to the handing of lists of balances at the end of the year by one agent to another, he said that practice had been discontinued for a number of years. So far as I know, that is not the case.

14,383. Does that practice still exist?-I know nothing to the contrary.

14,384. To what do you refer?-To the balances that may be due by men to the agents.

14,385. Have you in your business had such lists handed to you, or have you handed them to other agents in the trade?-Yes.

14,386. Is that still done?-It has been done within the last five years. It was the only legitimate way of keeping before you the men who were in debt. When they went from one agent to another, that was the only way in which we could know where they were, or whether they were still continuing to go in the trade; but, of course, when any balance was recovered, it was always with the entire concurrence of the indebted person.

14,387. Do you mean that when any balance was paid by an agent on his behalf it was with his concurrence?-It was always understood to be with his entire concurrence.

14,388. I suppose the practice you refer to came to this, that an agent to whom a man was in debt was able to recover from the agent who engaged him for the subsequent year in the Greenland voyage the amount of his debt or a part of it?-Yes, that was the object of it.

14,389. And the agent so paying became the creditor of the seaman, and trusted to be repaid out of the man's earnings from the voyage which was begun?-We might have a list of perhaps half a dozen men from an agent, and it might happen that only one of these men had been out for that agent for that year. If the man had the means to pay and was willing to pay, then of course he left it with the agent to do so.

14,390. If he had not the means to pay, was it usual for the agent engaging him for that year to advance the money?-Never. I never knew of a case where a debt was paid in that way, unless when the man had money to receive at the end of the voyage.

14,391. Then, at the end of the voyage does the agent receiving that list retain the money?-He would retain the money, and give a note to the man, or send the money with the man.

14,392. Would he send the man down to your office?-The man would often come himself, and sometimes be the bearer of a note stating that he left that money with the agent.

14,393. Has that been done since the regulations of 1868 came into force?-The regulations were in 1867.

14,394. The copy I have is dated 1868?-1867 was the first year that the men had to be paid at the Shipping Office.

14,395. Was there a previous notice to that I have got, which is dated February 1868?-I am not quite sure; but if there was one, I think it must have been something similar.

14,396. The change of procedure may have taken place without a notice; but you say that there was a change made in 1867?-Yes. That was the first year when we were obliged to pay the whole at the Shipping Office.

14,397. Have the lists you refer to ever passed since that new system was introduced?-Yes.

14,398. Can you remember the last time when such a list was handed to you?-I have a case here in point. In a book of the 'Arctic,' which I now produce there is an entry in the account of Magnus Thomson, dated 29th April 1868, 'By value in account with Hay & Co., 10s. 3d.'

14,399. The man was credited in the account for a sealing voyage with 10s. 3d., paid by Hay & Co. to you, the balance having been against him in his account with you for a previous sealing voyage to the extent of 11s. 9d.?-Yes.

14,400. Was that done in consequence of your handing Hay & Co. a note showing that balance against the man?-Yes.

14,401. Can you say whether any such cases have occurred since 1868?-I don't recollect any other case.

14,402. Have you ever handed such lists to Mr. Joseph Leask, or any person in his establishment, or received them from his house?-I went along one day and mentioned the names of two men to one of Mr. Leask's men, but I had no list.

14,403. Who was the person to whom you mentioned the names?-Mr. John Jamieson, the brother of the young man who was examined just now. I told him the names of two men who were indebted to me, and asked him if he would be kind enough to mention it to them. A day or two afterwards one of these men went to settle with Mr. Leask at the Shipping Office, and was discharged, and shortly afterwards he came and paid me a sum to account. I may mention that I was aware they could not keep the amount off the man's account; but I mentioned the matter to Mr. Leask's people, because I knew they would have an opportunity of seeing the men when they came to be discharged, and I wished them to remind them of their debt.

14,404. I suppose it was expected that if any case should occur in which a debt was due to Mr. Leask, you would do the same good office for him?-Yes.

14,405. Have you done so for Mr. Leask?-I am not aware that I have.

14,406. Have the names of any persons been suggested by Mr. Leask's people to you, in order that you might, if they were engaged by you, remind them of their debt to him?-Not so far as I recollect at present.

14,407. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. Robertson?-When you referred to the case of a man not having settled for his second payment until the time when he engaged for another year's voyage, you asked him if, when he got that second payment and his first month's advance for the following voyage, he left much of that money with the agent. Mr. Robertson stated that in many cases he did; but in all my experience, which has now extended over thirty years, I seldom ever saw a man leave any part of his first month's advance and his second payment both at the same time with the agent. If he did, it was an exceptional case.

14,408. Did he usually transmit it to his family for their maintenance during his absence, or spend it at the time in supplies for them?-Yes; in the case of a married man, I think the most of it was sent home, to be a provision for his family during his absence.

14,409. Is it usual for the man, at the same time, to send home a certain amount of supplies for his family upon an account?-Very often that was the case.

14,410. Is it not the case now?-It is not done to the same extent now, in consequence of the recent Board of Trade regulations, because the men don't get nearly so many advances.

14,411. Is the agent not willing to trust them to the same extent now?-No; they do not get the same sort of supplies now which they did formerly, which was generally meal.

14,412. But does the agent still afford them supplies of another kind?-He gives them an outfit for the voyage.

14,413. Does he not generally go beyond that in the supplies which he gives to them?-Not to anything like the same extent as formerly.

14,414. In fact he restricts their credit?-Very much.

14,415. Would you say that the advances given in that way are now reduced by one half?-Fully. Another statement which Mr. Robertson made was, that [Page 361] their books don't show the cash paid when the men are discharged at the Shipping Office.

14,416. I understand from what Mr. Robertson stated, and I think I saw from the books themselves, that the books still show the amount due to the man after settling his account with Mr. Leask,- that is to say, that the system of book-keeping which was in use before 1867 is still continued in the shop?-Yes.

14,417. The cash is actually paid in presence of the superintendent, but no settlement takes place in the books until afterwards?-Yes.

14,418. Has your system been changed since 1867?-Our system has not been changed; only, so far as I know, the practice of paying the whole balance to a seaman was not put in force until 1871. We had then ceased to be agents.

14,419. Had you ceased to be agents in 1871?-Yes.

14,420. In what way was the system carried on until 1871?-Every man on being landed was furnished with an account of wages, according to the Board of Trade regulations; and our practice, when furnishing that to a man, was to read over his account from the ledger, and tell him what balance he had to get, according to our account; and he was paid accordingly at the Shipping Office. When he appeared at the Shipping Office, the shipping master, or any one acting for him, asked the man if he had got his account of wages from the agent. He said 'Yes.' 'Are you satisfied with your account?' 'Yes;' and then I paid the amount of the balance. The shipping master did not see that what I had paid was the exact sum entered in the account of wages.

14,421. Then, in point of fact, what you paid was the sum actually due to the man in his private account with you?-Yes; that is to say, we squared accounts at the Shipping Office.

14,422. Was the shipping master aware that the cash actually passing was not the sum stated in the account of wages?-I am not aware of that. It was only last year that I understand the real sum paid was entered in the release which a man subscribed, and of course the shipping master had then to be satisfied that the actual sum was paid.

14,423 Was there a change in the form of the release then?-Yes, to that extent.

14,424. I understand the release is signed by the seamen, and the sum paid to each man is entered in the column opposite his name?-Yes.

14,425. That column either did not exist or was not filled up previous to 1871?-Yes. There was no column of that kind then.

14,426. Was that the reason why, in 1871, the superintendent began to look into the matter more closely, and to require that he should be satisfied that the actual sum named in the regulation account of wages was handed to the seamen?-Yes.

14,427. Under the present system, the superintendent has to give a certificate to that effect upon the release?-I suppose so.

14,428. Mr. Robertson stated that, in his experience, no allotment notes were ever taken in the names of the agents?-Yes; and that is another thing with regard to which I differ from him. That has been done in my own experience. Several young men, who had no wives to receive their allotment notes, asked at the Shipping Office if they could be made payable in my own name and the shipping master said it was quite legitimate. I think that occurred first in 1867.

14,429. Have you had such allotment notes in your own name since?-They were signed in that way unasked by me. I never knew about it until the men stated it in my presence.

14,430. The object of signing the allotment notes in that way was to enable you to draw their wages, or rather to retain their wages in security for your advances to them?-It had that effect.

14,431. In what year did you cease to act for Mr. Leask?-I left him in the end of 1865.

14,432. Had any allotment notes been taken before then in the agent's name?-Not to my knowledge.

14,433. While you in his employment, was it the practice to give the sailors no allotment notes at all?-Yes. I am not aware, from my own experience, that allotment notes were granted previous to 1867.

14,434. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr. Robertson's evidence?-Not having heard the whole of his evidence, I cannot say; but these are the only points on which I differ from him, so far as I heard what he stated.

14,435. You have handed me a memorandum with regard to the voyage of the s.s. 'Narwhal' of Dundee, in the seal and whale fishing of 1866, showing the earnings of the Shetland portion of the crew, the amount in cash paid to each man, and the time of settlement?-Yes.

14,436. Was that memorandum made for the owners?-No. I have made it up from my books for the purposes of this examination.

14,437. That statement shows that thirty-one men were engaged through you for that vessel in that year, that their earnings amounted to £411, 15. 8d., and the amount paid in cash to £321, 19s. 10d. You also state the average earnings to be £13, 5s. 8d.; the average cash £10, 7s. 9d., and the average goods £2, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.

14,438. You also state that seven of the men were discharged on the same day when they left the vessel and that the others were discharged afterwards at different times, varying from seven days up till two, two and a half, seven and a half, and eight and a half months after they left the vessel?-Yes.

14,439. Was the average amount of cash received by the men of the 'Narwhal,' on that voyage, below or above, the average received by men in other ships, in your experience?-I have not looked particularly at the other books. That was not a very successful voyage, otherwise the goods might have been a little more, and the cash would have been more as well.

14,440. You have also produced a similar memorandum with regard to the s.s. 'Arctic,' in 1867, after the new regulations were introduced, which shows that the proportion in goods and money had not altered very much?-Yes.

14,441. Do you think it has altered since 1867?-I don't think so.

14,442. I thought you said that since 1867 you had greatly limited your advances to the men?-I consider the amount advanced, even in 1867, to be limited.

14,443. The amount of goods advanced in 1866 was £2, 17s. 11d. out of £13, 5s. 8d. of average earnings in the case of the 'Narwhal,' and in 1867, in the case of the 'Arctic,' it was £2, 13s. 1d. out of £11, 15s. 3d. of average earnings: that was very nearly the same proportion?-Yes.

14,444. Can you say that the amount of cash paid now is much greater than it was as shown in this return?-No; of course much will depend upon the success of the voyage, but I don't think there would be a great difference in the proportion.

14,445. Then is this memorandum intended to show that as much cash was paid before 1867 as you pay now?-I just took these two ships for the two respective years. I had no such object in view as you suggest.

14,446. Do you think that, in point of fact, as much cash was paid before 1867 as is paid now?-As I said before, it depends very much on the success of the voyage.

14,447. But you have had a great deal of experience, and, taking an average successful voyage, would the payment of cash be as great before 1867 as it has been since?-The regulations of the Board of Trade won't interfere with that to any great extent, but the agents have not been engaging so many young hands since.

14,448. Is it your experience, as well as Mr. Robertson's, that green hands are not employed now to the same extent as they were formerly?-Yes; that must be the experience of every one.

14,449. What is the total cost of a green hand's outfit?-About £7.

14,450. The average amount spent on outfit by a man who has been at the whaling before must, I suppose, be [Page 362] considerably less?-A man who has been there for many years before may be keeping up his outfit.

14,451. May he require to spend £3 or £4 when he goes out again?-He may not require to spend one half of that.

14,452. And besides that he obtains a higher wage?-Yes.

14,453. Are you in the habit of insuring your men's outfits?-Yes.

14,454. What is the rate of insurance?-I think it is from 5 to 6 guineas per cent. I may mention that the Greenland trade was always considered to be a great nursery for seamen. A great many of our naval reserve men now, the majority of whom could compare with similar class in any part of Great Britain, commenced their career in the Greenland trade; but now these stringent Board of Trade regulations have utterly prevented, or nearly so, agents from taking them.

14,455. Is that because it has lessened the agents' power over the men?-No, it is because the men can only engage for one voyage; while almost the whole of the ships go to the seal fishing first, and come home, and then go back to Davis Straits.

14,456. Do the men ever engage for both voyages at once?-They have done so for the last year or two but it is not legal.

14,457. But they did it formerly?-Yes.

14,458. And they have resumed the practice within the last year or two?-Within the last two or three years the young hands have come to know that they cannot be forced to go both voyages, but that if they choose to leave at the end of the first voyage they do so. Of course an agent, when giving him an outfit for the sealing voyage, knew that nearly the same outfit would do for the whaling; but he cannot run the risk of giving that outfit upon one voyage merely, and therefore he cannot engage young hands.

14,459. I thought you said they had begun within the last year or two again to engage them for both voyages?-No. I say they have given it up within the last few years, because the young hands came to know that they could not be compelled to go both voyages if they chose to leave at the end of the sealing voyage.

14,460. Then that is another reason for ceasing to employ young hands?-That, in my opinion, is principal reason.

14,461. Are these young hands not anxious to get employment for both voyages?-If they have to rough it very severely in the first voyage perhaps they get cured of going, and wish to stay at home.

14,462. But the abstracts you have produced show that the amounts of goods in 1866 and 1867 were very much in the same proportion; so that that is not consistent with the general proposition you stated, that the agents have restricted their credits to the men very much since these regulations were enforced?-As I said before, I made up these two lists in this way, that one was for the last year when the agents could settle without going before the shipping master, and the other was for the following year when they were compelled to go.

14,463. The abstracts you have produced, if they are to be taken as representative cases, rather show that the system introduced in 1867 made no difference at all?-I merely took these two years as specimens of what was done before and after the new system was introduced. I can prepare statements for other years if you think it necessary.

14,464. Perhaps the explanation may be that the 'Narwhal' was the case in which the greatest amount of cash was paid before 1867, in your experience?-I did not fix upon the ships in that way. I merely took them for the reason I have stated. The first man's account in that list shows that of £28, 11s. 3d. which he had to receive, he got £27, 15s. in cash. What I meant to show by that was, that the agent had no control over the man's cash, but that when he asked it he got it.

14,465. How many ships had you in 1866?-Two; the 'Narwhal' and the 'Erik.'

14,466. Did the men in the 'Erik' receive as large a proportion of cash as those in the 'Narwhal'?-I could not say positively unless I had the book, but I think they could not have had so much.

14,467. Would they have a good deal less?-They would have considerably less, because the vessel returned clean. The voyage was utterly unsuccessful.

14,468. Then, taking your experience while in Mr. Leask's employment before 1866, should you say that the men sailing in the ships for which he was agent generally received as much cash as the men of the 'Narwhal' in 1866?-I think on an average they would; but of course that would be in pretty successful years.

14,469. I am not speaking about the actual amount of cash which they would receive, and whether it was larger or smaller, but would they receive the same proportion of cash and of goods as is shown by your memorandum?-Scarcely.

14,470. Would the proportion be considerably less?-I am hardly prepared to say.

14,471. Are you prepared to say that since 1867 the men in the ships under your charge have got the same proportions of cash as against goods as are stated in the memorandum with regard to the 'Arctic'?-Nearly. I shall furnish a statement for a year or two in order to show how the matter stood then.*

14,472. How many vessels had you in 1871?-I had none in 1871. In 1870 I had two-the 'Narwhal' and the 'Arctic.'

14,473. Have you a separate book for each year?-I have for each ship. I should wish to make a remark with regard to the report of the Accountant of the Board of Trade. Enough, perhaps too much, has already been said on that subject, but I think his report is couched in rather exaggerated terms, and, to a cursory reader, is calculated to convey a very erroneous impression. To a careful reader it is very different, I must acknowledge, but with a cursory reader it might have that effect.

14,474. Then you don't go so far as Mr. Robertson has gone, and say that the statements in it are utterly erroneous?-No, I cannot do that.

14,475. You merely object to the general impression which it conveys?-Yes; but I decidedly object to that. I would also say that in my experience, which is nearly as long as that of any one in the agency I never knew of an agent intentionally putting off time in settling with the men. When I was in Mr. Leask's employment, before the passing of the Merchant Shipping Act, when the men were landed and got what cash and goods they wanted, they would generally ask at what time they would be settled with, and we would tell them that in the course of a month, by which time we got the returns ready-that is, the [Page 363] ship's accounts for wages and oil-money-we would settle with them at any time. That was the universal practice.

14,476. Formerly you did not settle with the men until you had got funds put into your hands by the owners-No; and we generally got these in the course of four weeks.

14,477. Do you know of any case in which a settlement was refused on the ground that you had not received funds from the owners?-No; I do not recollect of any such case.

14,478. Is there any foundation for this statement in Mr. Hamilton's report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any employment again.' Has a man had any difficulty in getting employment because he had carried his custom away from a particular agent?- I don't think so. If there was such a case, I think it must have been only one.

14,479. Was there one case?-I say I think it could only be one case.

14,480. But do you know of any one case?-Having left Mr. Leask's business, I consider it treading on rather delicate ground to speak about that; and I would not like to be pressed. Of course I must always remember in giving my evidence that I am on oath, but I would not like to be considered as equivocating.

14,481. I think you are giving very candid evidence; but you ought to tell if there is any foundation for the statement that the men had been refused employment because they had carried their custom elsewhere?-I am only aware of one solitary case.

14,482. Was that because the man had gone away and got an outfit or supplies elsewhere?-I am not aware of a man being denied a berth because he had taken an outfit elsewhere. I think the report of the Accountant is incorrect in that respect, because I have known no case in which a man has been refused a berth because he had taken his outfit elsewhere.

14,483. What was the one case to which you referred just now?-I cannot condescend upon the particulars which led to it specially; but there was one case of man being engaged, or partly engaged. He had been with the same master for some years before, but some little difference arose, and the man was prevented from going the voyage, and did not go to it. I cannot say what was the particular cause for that.

14,484. What was the name of the man?-Thomas Manson, Bressay. That has been the only case of that kind, in my experience of the Greenland trade.

14,485. The practice in engaging seamen, I understand, is that the men go to the agents and intimate their desire to be employed for the voyage?-Yes.

14,486. The agent has not the power of making legal engagement with the men, but the engagement is finally made by the captain?-Yes.

14,487. Do you go on board the vessel with the men for the purpose of having them engaged, or is the engagement generally made by the captain on shore?-There have been a few cases of engaging men on board ship, but very few.

14,488. But it is done at a meeting between the captain, the agent, and the men?-Yes.

14,489. I suppose the agent, where there are a number of men, has some voice with regard to their selection?-Unquestionably.

14,490. Are you aware whether any effort has been made by agents, either yourself or others, to secure engagements for the men who had larger accounts or larger debts in your books?-Of course there have been a few cases where an engagement has been got for a man who was in debt.

14,491. Do you know of any case where the captain has objected, or complained of the efforts made by the agent to get such men engaged?-No, I don't recollect of any such case.

14,492. Did you know a Captain M'Lennan who came here for men?-Yes.

14,493. Did he make any objection of that kind on any occasion?-No.

14,494. Did he not complain of it being done?-Not to my knowledge. I never heard any such complaint, either from him or from the owner on his behalf.

14,495. Were you at one time agent for a vessel of which he was master?-Yes, in 1870. He had his men sent south to him in the previous year. We had him for two years.

14,496. Were you not in business at all in 1871?-Not as shipping agents.

14,497. Had you applied to have the agency for Captain M'Lennan's ship in 1871, before you gave up the business?- No; we had her from 1866 till 1871, when we gave her up voluntarily.

14,498. Was no complaint made at all that you had endeavoured to engage men who were in your debt or who were running accounts with you?-No.

14,499. In your business, who was in the habit of settling with the men at the Custom House? was it yourself or a clerk?-It was invariably myself. In fact it was the same individual who had to appear every time. The shipping master would not allow one person to come now, and another person to come then.

14,500. You have already stated that, so long as you were engaged in the trade, the amount of your account was deducted, and only the balance was handed over to the man in presence of the shipping master?-Yes.

14,501. So that, in point of fact, your account was settled in the Custom House just as it was before the Board of Trade regulations, with this exception, that there was no writing or reading over of the accounts at that place?-Yes. Before 1867 it was done in our own office. I may mention that in several cases, of which this [showing an account of wages] is a specimen, the men actually got what they had to get according to the Board of Trade regulations. In that case the sum which the man had to get was £5, 16s. 3d.

14,502. Did he get the whole amount because he had no account at all?-He had an account, but he got this sum in full because his wife had not drawn all his allotments.

14,503. Were the allotments deducted in that account?-Yes, that was invariably done.

14,504. Did you draw the allotments for your account?-We drew them regularly from the owners.

14,505. So that this man got his balance due upon the account of wages, because his allotments had been applied to the account due to you?-Yes. I may mention that his account was very trifling,- in fact was next to nothing; and in addition to that he had a balance to get, when he came down to the office, of £3 odds due upon his allotments.

14,506. Have you any vessels engaged in the Faroe trade?-No; we are in no way connected with that fishing.

14,507. Have you any share as owner in any of the vessels for which you have acted as agent?-No; and as we are entirely out of that trade just now, have no reason for making the statements I have done, except merely to give it correct account of the way in which the business has been conducted. The statement I have made is altogether an unprejudiced one.

14,508. But you think the 21/2 per cent. allowed to you was a very inadequate remuneration?-Since the recent Board of Trade regulations were issued, it was because we had often to throw our own business aside to attend to the men when they came to settle.

*Mr. Tulloch afterwards furnished the following statement:- Men on s.s. 'Arctic,' of Dundee, voyage to seal and whale fishing in 1867. Amount of wages and oil-money, £411 14 6 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-35 men, 318 14 6 Amount of goods sold, £93 0 0

Average earnings, £11 15 3 ,, cash, 9 2 1 ,, goods, 2 13 1

Men on s.s. 'Narwhal's' voyage to seal and whale fishing in 1869-M'Lennan, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc.,. £303 15 2 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-19 men, 255 11 6 Amount of goods sold, £48 3 8

Average earnings, £15 19 9 ,, cash, 13 9 0 ,, goods, 2 10 9

Men on s.s. 'Erik,' of London, voyage to seal fishing in 1869-Robert Jones, master. Amount of wages and oil-money, etc., £365 10 10 Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of crew-25 men, 326 4 4 Amount of goods sold, 39 6 6 Average earnings, £14 12 5 ,, cash, 13 1 0 ,, goods, 1 11 5

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GEORGE REID TAIT, examined.

14,509. You were for a number of years engaged as an agent in Lerwick for whaling vessels?-I was.

14,510. How many ships had you generally?-I have had as high as eighteen in one year.

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14,511. For these, I suppose, you would sometimes employ 100 or 200 men?-Fully that; perhaps about 250 men.

14,512. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Tulloch?-I have.

14,513. Are there any points on which you differ from him?-Yes. So far as my own experience is concerned, since the issuing of the Board of Trade regulations in 1867 we have invariably settled with our men at the Shipping Office without deducting our own account

14,514. Were these settlements conducted by yourself, or by one of your clerks?-Principally by one of my clerks; but at times, when he was absent, I generally settled with the men myself.

14,515. Was that clerk Mr. Leisk, who is now your successor in business?-Yes.

14,516. Is the statement correct that these settlements were generally protracted for months, and were only made at intervals as the men came up?-I don't think it is generally correct. When a vessel arrived at Lerwick, the men were generally settled with at once.

14,517. Even before 1867?-Even before 1867. I don't think there is any difference with regard to the dates of settlement.

14,518. Then what effect have the regulations had?-I don't think they have had very much effect, so far as my own experience goes.

14,519. Have they had the effect of reducing the amount of debit against the men in the agents' books?-I don't think so.

14,520. You have not found it necessary in consequence to restrict your advances to the men?-I have not. I just give them much about the same as formerly

14,521. Have you formed any idea from your experience as to what proportion of a man's earnings in an average voyage may be exhausted by his supplies in goods?-I have taken a note of it for the last three years. In some cases it has been as high as 20 per cent.; but where the vessels were successful, the proportion of goods was not by any means so great, compared with the amount of oil-money and wages. In that case it would sometimes be reduced to 5 per cent. In the case of the 'Arctic,' Dundee, last year, £995, 6s. 8d. was paid at the Shipping Office to 29 men, and they afterwards returned and paid me £48, 2s. 5d. for goods That was a very successful year, and the 'Arctic' was particularly fortunate. I may explain that out of the twenty-nine men there were only eight taken on the second voyage The vessel made two voyages, and that return is exclusive of the eight men who went with her the second time.

14,522. So that the advances were really made for the sealing voyage only?-Yes, really for the sealing voyage.

14,523. And I suppose it was from the sealing voyage that the greater part of the returns were made?-No. I think the eight men grossed pretty nearly as much from the second voyage.

14,524. But that was an extraordinary case altogether, was it not?-Our vessels were all fortunate last year, on the whole.

14,525. However, you say that in some cases the amount of goods has been as much as 20 per cent. of the whole earnings?-I think so; but these were exceptional cases.

14,526. After the new regulations were issued, did the men universally come down and settle their accounts as soon as they received their cash at the Custom House?-As a rule, they did.

14,527. Are they expected to do so?-A great number of the men who are customers of my own are always very honourable in settling their accounts.

14,528. But is it understood when you are paying them the money that they are to do so?-Yes.

14,529. Is there an understanding expressed at the time when they are getting the advance, that they are to settle as soon as they receive their wages?-We have never expressed it in words, but I should fancy that there is such an understanding.

14,530. Have your accounts since 1867 been kept in the same way as they were before?-In the same way.

14,531. That is to say, they show the receipt by the seaman of the balance due after deducting his account, and don't show the actual sum received by him at the Custom House?-We generally credit the men with the full amount of wages, oil-money, and seal-money payable to them; then there are the advances prior to the voyage; then there is the sum paid at the Shipping Office;-the full amount is entered against the men; and then the sum returned.

14,532. Do you make a separate entry of that so as to show what has been actually paid?-Yes.

14,533. Have you known any case of a man declining to come down from the Shipping Office to pay his account at the time?- There have been two or three very rare cases.

14,534. What happened when such cases occurred?-The men are still due the amount. That was all that happened.

14,535. Did you make any effort to get them an engagement in the following year?-No; I have never seen them since. I think two of them are south.

14,536. Have you seen any evidence on the part of the men in other cases of an unwillingness to come down?-No. I have never seen any evidence of that at all. We leave the men at the Custom House after we pay them, and they always turn up afterwards and pay us.

14,537. Do you ever accompany them down from the Shipping Office?-We never have to do such a thing. It may be a day or so before they come, but they always pay very honourably.

14,538. Do you generally tell them at the Custom House that they are to come down to the office?-No. I do not recollect ever once telling them that, or giving them the least hint on the subject. I trust to their honour, and they always come forward. I may remark, that masters of vessels coming home from the sealing are very anxious to proceed with all despatch to Dundee or Peterhead, and it is sometimes difficult to make the harbour here. It would be an exceedingly annoying thing to force shipmasters to spend some days perhaps in making Lerwick harbour; so that they are very anxious in passing Shetland, to land their crews at any of the islands; but in that case the expenses of the crew are invariably paid to Lerwick, and it may be a fortnight perhaps before we see the men. Generally speaking, however, they are in town in less than eight days.

14,539. Have you known any cases in which your account for goods furnished was entered in the captain's store-book?-I have known cases of that some years ago-perhaps about three years ago, I should fancy; but am not certain.

14,540. Was that done after the new system was introduced?- There was a special order of the Board of Trade issued afterwards, preventing us from doing so. It was done before that time.

14,541. Did that order prohibit such entries being made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, with the exception of the captain's own account.

14,542. Such entries were made, I presume, to entitle you to deduct the amount of your account at the settlement before the superintendent?-Yes.

14,543. Do you think the remuneration of 2 1/2 per cent. is sufficient for the trouble that an agent has in obtaining engagements for the men and settling with them?-That depends entirely upon the success of the vessel. Some vessels, such as the 'Arctic' in the voyage I have mentioned, pay well enough; but if the vessel is unfortunate, the remuneration is scarcely sufficient.

14,544. But, taking the vessels overhead, is it sufficient?-I don't think it is, considering the time and trouble that are necessary.

14,545. Might not the rate of remuneration be raised by agreement with the owners?-They have refused to increase it. There was an application to that effect made some years ago, and I think they refused to entertain it.

14,546. Then I fancy the agent's principal inducement to continue in the business is that he has an opportunity [Page 365] of supplying the men with goods?-I don't think there are many agents inclined to continue the business now.

14,547. You have given it up yourself?-Yes.

14,548. But your successors are to continue it?-Yes. I think for a year they are to continue it.

14,549. You are not one of the gentlemen who have come voluntarily forward for the purpose of contradicting the official report of Mr. Hamilton?-No; but, so far as my own experience is concerned, I think Mr. Hamilton's report was very much exaggerated. In fact it was not correct, because all our men invariably got paid in full at the Shipping Office, without any deductions, since 1867. From the report, it would appear that the agent deducted his own account, but that was never done by me.

14,550. But if you put your account into the captain's store-book, that was getting deduction of it?-There was a special clause in the ship's articles, entitling us to do that. During the last three years that has been prohibited, so far as the Shetland men's accounts were concerned, but not in the Peterhead ships' articles. I think the clause still holds good with regard to Peterhead crews.

14,551. In your business, were you in the practice of taking out the allotments of wages in your own name?-No, not the allotments.

14,552. Did you give any allotment notes at all?-Yes, since 1867.

14,553. Did you do so in all cases?-No. I have had allotment notes, in a few exceptional cases, made out in my own name, when the men desired that. They volunteered it at the Shipping Office in a few cases; but the great bulk of them were made out in their wives' names and, where they were young men, in the name of their mothers.

14,554. Were there many cases in which no allotment notes were taken at all?-Yes. I think last year we had one crew who had no allotment notes at all; and before 1867 I think no allotment notes were given.

14,555. Since 1867, has it been a common thing for men not to take allotment notes at all?-It is common thing for the men to take them if the voyage is long; but if it is short, the captain does not give allotment notes, because the voyage would be ended before the first note was due.

14,556. Have you known any case in which agents have endeavoured to secure engagements for men who were due them money, or who were running accounts with them, in preference to other men who were not in that position?-I never knew any such case, although I have heard it often talked about.

14,557. Have you heard the captains complaining that the agents wanted them to take men who were indebted to them, rather than the best men who were not in debt?-I have heard Captain M'Lennan say so. I was not his agent at all, but I heard him make such a complaint in our place last year. I did not know anything as to the truth of it.

14,558. Were you acquainted with the system of exchanging lists which Mr. Tulloch spoke of?-Yes; but I have seen none from anybody for the last five or six years, nor have I handed any within that time.

14,559. What was the purpose of these lists?-It was simply for the purpose, if possible, of procuring payment of the balance due, or of ascertaining where the man was employed. The list gave us a sort of idea where he had been in the previous season.

14,560. Was it a list of all the men who were in your debt, and who had not engaged with you, that you handed to the other agents?-It was generally a list of about half a dozen men, whether they engaged or not. It depended upon whether they were customers.

14,561. But if a man engaged with you, it was quite unnecessary for you to hand his name in a list to any other agent?-Yes; it was quite unnecessary then.

14,562. Therefore the list must have contained the names of men who had not engaged with you?-Yes.

14,563. At what period were these lists made out?-About the spring, or some time during the season, prior to the vessels returning from the Arctic regions.

14,564. Have you ever handed lists of that kind to Mr. Leask or to any of his people?-Yes, when Mr. Tulloch was a clerk to him, but never since the regulations of the Board of Trade were issued.

14,565. Have you known any case of a man being paid his wages before the superintendent, and leaving to hand back a large proportion of them to the agent in settlement of his account?- Yes. If he was an honest man, he would come down and settle his account, whatever it was.

14,566. May it have happened in many cases that he had to hand back the whole or a considerable portion of his earnings in that way?-Yes; in the case of a young lad whose earnings were small, his account might amount to the whole.

14,567. Your books, I have no doubt, would show many cases of that kind?-Yes, many cases.

14,568. Did you cease to engage young hands to the same extent as formerly, in consequence of the regulations of the Board of Trade?-Yes. That is the sole reason why so few young hands are engaged now.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, sen. recalled.

14,569. Have you examined your books for January 1868?-Yes.

14,570. Did you find any entry there of a sale of meal to Thomas Hutchison, Skerries, or to his father?-No; there is no entry of a sale of meal in that month.

14,571. Did you find the price at which your meal was being sold in the following month?-Yes.

14,572. You have no entries to show the price during January?-I cannot find any.

14,573. At what price was it being sold in February 1868?-At 52s. That is the price I charged; but I find the price was rising that year, because in the following month again it was charged 1s. higher; and it is quite possible that I would sell a sack at 50s. in January.

14,574. Is it possible you may have sold a sack of meal without it being entered in your books at all?-Yes; we frequently do that. If the cash is paid down we don't make any entry of it.

14,575. The price of 52s. in February was the credit price?-Yes.

14,576. So that, if a man were buying it over the counter, he would probably get it 1s. cheaper, paying for it at the time?-Yes. We usually give it 1s. cheaper when paid for at the time, than when we give two or three months' credit.

14,577. Do you do an extensive business in meal?-Yes.

14,578. Is there much difference in the price of the meal sold in Shetland, according to the quality of it?-There is a considerable difference in the prices of flour.

14,579. But is the meal generally about the same quality?-Much about the same.

14,580. Is there a difference between south-country meal and Orkney meal and Shetland meal?-There is no Shetland meal sold. We never get any to buy; at least very little.

14,581. I have seen one or two entries of Shetland meal in country places: would it be sold much lower than south-country meal?- Yes, very much lower.

14,582. But it is not an ordinary article of commerce in the country?-No. There are very few who deal in it.

14,583. In comparing the books of different merchants selling meal throughout the country, would it, in your opinion, be fair to assume that a merchant in a country district was selling the same quality of meal that you sell in Lerwick?-Yes. I think they would be selling the same quality. There may be different qualities of meal, but I think they all keep the same qualities. For instance we keep three kinds of flour.

14,584. That is in flour, but in meal is it usual in Shetland to keep more than one quality?-I think not.

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14,585. You keep only one quality of meal?-Yes.

14,586. And you are inclined to believe that merchants in other parts of Shetland will generally be selling the same quality?-I think so. Of course it must be a little dearer in the country, but I have heard of prices being charged, at which I was a little surprised.

14,587. Did you at one time give a note of the prices of meal to a man, Henry Gilbertson?-I was inquiring at my clerk about that, and I found that he did it. Of course he would give the prices which he knew, and which he would find in my book. I may mention that the prices of meal differ very much in one year.

14,588. But probably not within one month, unless there is a sudden rise?-No; not unless there is a sudden rise or a sudden fall. I generally consider that we should charge as little for meal as we can, so that the poor people may get it at as low a price as possible; and we take a less profit on it than on other goods.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN LEISK, examined.

14,589. You are a partner of the firm of Leisk & Sandison, merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick?-I am.

14,590. I understand you were previously in the employment of Mr. George Reid Tait, who has now retired from business?-Yes; I had been in his employment since 1862.

14,591. Were you in any other business of the same kind before?-No; I entered business then for the first time.

14,592. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Tait?-Yes.

14,593. Do you agree generally with him in the account he has given of the way in which seamen have been discharged and had their wages paid?-Yes. I think it was generally correct.

14,594. Have you been in the habit of going up and paying wages at the Custom House?-I generally went with the men there.

14,595. Is it the custom now to hand them over their wages in cash, deducting only the sums which they have got for the month's advance, the allotment money, and the captain's account for stores?-During the last year, 1871, we only deducted the captain's stores and the first month's advance.

14,596. Were there no allotments?-The men had allotments but we did not deduct them. We were entitled to do so; but I found it simpler not to deduct them, and trust to the men refunding.

14,597. Then the allotments were not entered in the accounts of wages at all?-No.

14,598. Why did you not enter an allotment which the man had really drawn?-Our reason for not doing so was that in some cases they had not received the allotment in full, and they did not understand the accounts very well. In fact we found they understood them much better when they saw the full amount of their wages and were told the amount of advances. It was less trouble to us, and we got on better with the men by doing so.

14,599. Did you not include the allotment in the settlement with the men at the Custom House because it was involved in their accounting with you?-Yes; it became involved with that.

14,600. Had the allotment notes in 1871 been taken in name of the agent?-Very few of them. Perhaps in one or two cases they were, but not more.

14,601. Had they generally been left in his hands?-Yes, generally.

14,602. When not taken in his name, but left in his hands, in whose name were they made out?-Generally in name of their wives or some of their relations.

14,603. Had you found that the wives had come to get advances?-Yes, generally they had.

14,604. But not to the full extent of the allotment money?- Sometimes, and in other cases they did not. In Lerwick they always got supplies to the full extent, but in the country they did not.

14,605. In what way did they get supplies?-Chiefly in money.

14,606. But in the country they did not take money to the full extent of the allotment note?-Sometimes they did. In fact the allotments were generally paid in cash.

14,607. Was it usual for the wives only to take it as they wanted it, and not to draw the full amount of allotment money due at any one time?-They generally had it divided in four; and they came for it weekly, instead of monthly-the allotment note being payable monthly.

14,608. Was it in consequence of that practice of drawing upon the allotment money that you found it more convenient not to put it into the account of wages?-Yes.

14,609. If it had been drawn at monthly intervals the account would have been simpler?-It would.

14,610. And it might have been entered in the account of wages without any trouble?-Yes.

14,611. Why was it not paid over to the women monthly?-They generally wanted money before it was due. It is only due two months after the vessel has left; and they required money before that time and generally got it.

14,612. When the two months had expired, did you not settle accounts with them, so as to clear off all that was due?-In some cases we did. When they were drawing upon us regularly we did so, but we did not make a practice of doing so.

14,613. I suppose you were supplying them with goods at the time as they wanted them?-If they wanted goods we supplied them, but we never asked them to take them.

14,614. Neither did you ask them to take the full amount of their allotment money when it was due?-No.

14,615. Have you since 1862 been in the habit of settling the accounts with seamen engaged in the whaling trade?-Only since the new regulations in 1867.

14,616. Since then has it generally been you who have gone up to the Custom House for Mr. Tait?-Yes, almost invariably, except when I was away.

14,617. Since 1867 has the deduction for your account ever been made in settling at the Custom House-Never since 1868. There was an order issued by the Board of Trade in 1867, but it was not very complete, and there were fuller regulations issued in 1868.

14,618. But the system was altered in 1867?-Yes. There was nothing to prevent us from including supplies for the men in the captain's store-book previous to 1868; but the new regulations prevented that, and we never did it afterwards.

14,619. Then it was only in 1867 that any entries were made in the captain's store-book?-Yes, by us. There was a clause about that in the regulations of 1868 which was not in the regulations of 1867.

14,620. Have you ever read over to the men the account of their transactions with you before going up to settle at the Custom House?-We generally read it over when they come to pay it.

14,621. Is it ever done before they go to the Custom House?-If they wish it, it is done but we never volunteer to do it.

14,622. Has there been any case since 1868 in which settlement of your account has been made or proposed at the Custom House?-I don't remember one. I know it was never allowed by the superintendent. He always counted the money, in every case since 1868.

14,623. Do you know how it was done in the case of other agents?-I don't know.

14,624. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Tulloch to the effect that up to 1870 he had only paid the cash balance due to the man after deduction of his account, and that the superintendent had not taken care to see that the whole amount was paid, except the legal [Page 367] deductions?-Yes. I understood that that had been allowed in Mr. Tulloch's case, but it was not allowed in ours.

14,625. Had you been expressly debarred from doing so by the superintendent?-Yes.

14,626. Was that done on any occasion when you were about to settle your own account there?-No. We never tried that; but he has repeatedly counted the money, perhaps not every man's, but that of two or three, to see that it was complete.

14,627. Has that been done since 1868?-Yes, always since 1868.

14,628. Do the men universally come down to your shop to settle their accounts after receiving the money?-Yes, I think invariably. I only remember one case in which a man failed to do so. Perhaps there has been one case more, but I don't think it.

14,629. Who was the man whose case you remember?-John Henderson, Yell.

14,630. Have you had occasion to remind the men that they ought to come down and pay their accounts?-No; we do not remind them of it, but we always explain the account of wages as we hand it to each man.

14,631. Is that explanation made in the Custom House?-No; we explain it previously. The man is supposed to be satisfied with it before he goes to the Custom House.

14,632. When making that explanation, do you also tell them that they are bound to come and pay their account for furnishings to you?-We do not tell them so. We tell them that our account is not included in the account of wages, and has to be paid simply when they get their money.

14,633. And the men have always come down without being told, and have paid their accounts at your shop?-Yes. They generally leave the Shipping Office one by one as they are paid, and come down to the shop, sometimes straight, and sometimes they do not appear for a long time afterwards. We never look after them, but just trust to their coming.

14,634. I suppose the amount of your account for outfit and furnishings sometimes exceeds the amount of wages and oil-money due; at least in the case of young hands?-In the case of young hands only; and as rule, in their case it does so. It is a very exceptional thing in the case of older hands. The young hands have less clothes to start with, and they require larger outfit, and their wages are smaller.

14,635. Do young hands invariably come back to you in the second year to get an engagement?-Not invariably.

14,636. What do they do in that case?-I don't know what becomes of them. Perhaps they go to some other fishing, or engage with some other agent.

14,637. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining his outfit from another shop than that of the agent by whom he has been engaged?-I don't know of any.

14,638. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining what he wanted for his second or third voyage from another shop than that of the agent who engaged him?-No, I have not been aware of it. If he had money to get at the end of the voyage, he possibly bought what he wanted elsewhere. I don't know of such a case, but it may have happened.

14,639. Was there a correspondence between Mr. Tait and the superintendent hereabout the system of paying seamen at the Custom House within the last three or four years?-There was some correspondence between them in the beginning of 1871.

14,640. Was that after the publication of Mr. Hamilton's report?- Yes.

14,641. How did that correspondence originate?-I think it originated from some document that came down for explanation from the Board of Trade through the shipowners in Dundee. Mr. Tait sent it up to the Shipping Office here, and asked what was complained of in discharging the seamen.

14,642. Did he get an answer?-The correspondence was carried on between Mr. Tait and Mr. Gatherer. I was not concerned in it.

14,643. Had you any interviews with Mr. Gatherer on the subject?-Yes, one. I carried up the document to him which had come from the Board of Trade and conveyed a message to him from Mr. Tait asking what was complained of, as we did not know of anything wrong. He refused to give me an explanation, saying at first that he knew nothing about it. I insisted that there must have been some complaint from him or from this quarter, but he still refused to give me any explanation of it, and I got none.

14,644. Did the correspondence follow upon that interview which you had with him?-Yes.

14,645. Was any explanation obtained in the correspondence?-I am not conversant with the correspondence, and I cannot answer that question.

14,646. Are you engaged in any other branch of the fishing business except the agency for the whaling vessels?-No. With regard to the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society, I heard Mr. Jamieson's evidence upon that point, and I would like to add, that a man who is wrecked has the option of applying through any agent that he may choose, and is not bound in any way to apply through the man who has sold him his ticket.

14,647. What is the practice in cases of that sort?-The men generally apply through the agent nearest to them.

14,648. Have you known any cases in which men or widows have applied through others than the agent who sold them the ticket, in order that they might obtain money instead of being paid in goods?-I did not know that that was their reason, but it might have been.

14,649. In such cases as those to which I have referred, have they generally asked for money?-They have generally got the money, so far as I know.

14,650. But you are not acquainted with any case in which that has been assigned as the reason for applying to a different agent?- No; I never heard it. They would likely apply to the agent they were best acquainted with, or who lived nearest to them. There are five agents in Lerwick, one of whom is the fishery officer, who is not connected with trade in any way, so far as I am aware.

14,651. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to the time for settling with the men, we generally, as soon as we can get their accounts ready, fix a day for them to appear at the Shipping Office, and we settle then with as many as make their appearance.

14,652. You do not settle with the men on landing?-When the men land, we fix a day for settling with them, and as many men as appear on that day get their wages then, and the rest get them when they call.

14,653. But if you see the men when they land, in order to fix the day with them, why is it that you cannot [be] there and then settle with them?-Because we cannot get the accounts ready. We require some time to make up the accounts of wages, and then they have to get discharges, which take them fully as much time as the accounts. There is a great deal of writing to be done in that; they are all made out in duplicate.

14,654. Do you mean that your own shop accounts have to be made up?-No, our own shop accounts have all been made up long before; it is only the accounts of wages that have to be made up at that time.

14,655. Have they to be made out in duplicate?-No; only the discharges.

14,656. Are not the whole crew discharged in one document?- That is the release; but each man besides has to get a separate discharge, and a certificate of character and ability and conduct.

14,657. Do you ever settle accounts of wages with the men before your own shop accounts are made out and balanced?-Never. We always make out our shop accounts shortly after the vessel sails.

14,658. But you may be giving supplies to the families all the time when the vessel is away?-Yes; but it is very easy to add that. It is always posted up, and can be added to the account at any time. I now produce the store-book of the 'Tay' in order to show you [Page 368] the form in which we understand it has to be kept in order to comply with the regulations.

14,659. Is that book kept by the captain?-Yes, We generally furnish a book for the purpose. The captains are not very careful about that, and we have had a great deal of annoyance with the Shipping Office in consequence.

14,660. Is there a separate store-book, kept in these steamers for the Shetland men?-Yes. The entries are filled in by the captain, and signed by him and each man; but sometimes they are not very particular in getting them signed, and objections have been made to receiving them at the Shipping Office in consequence.

14,661. Who is G.R.?-That is the signature of one of the clerks in the Shipping Office. That book will show the dates on which the men have been paid. The vessel arrived on Sunday 14th May, and we fixed the 17th as the day of settlement, when a few men made their appearance. There are three days allowed by the Merchant Shipping Act for settlement.

14,662. Do you think that is too short a period to enable you to make out all these accounts?-Three days are plenty of time. That settlement was made within the three days. The vessel arrived on the Sunday, which of course does not count, and we had Monday and Tuesday for making out the accounts. The Monday was a mail day, and we put them off until Tuesday. We employed ourselves making them out on that day, and appointed the men to meet us at the Shipping Office, at ten o'clock on the Wednesday morning, and you will see how many men made their appearance out of a crew of fifty men.

14,663. How many of them did so?-I have not counted them over, but the dates are all there when the men were settled with, with the exception of one man, John Robertson, Yell, who has not made his appearance yet. Mr. Tait sent him a verbal message, requesting him to come down and get his wages, but he has not attended to it.

14,664. I see that one of these men was settled with on 15th May, being the day after the vessel arrived?-That has been an exceptional case. The man had probably been anxious to get away, but I don't remember.

14,665. I also see that a number of them did come forward on the 17th, or within a few days after it?-Yes. They came just when it suited them. I think there were only about a dozen who came on the 17th out of the fifty.

14,666. How soon were they all cleared off, except the one man who has not come yet?-I could not answer that question without referring to the book, but most of them would be within a month. There are always a few exceptional cases in every ship, of men who either do not require the money, or who have something which prevents them from coming.

14,667. Had you ever got a ship cleared off so rapidly before?- Frequently.

14,668. But not before 1871?-Yes; in 1870 and 1869 we got them settled with as rapidly. The settlements are never put off by the agents, but the men may stay away as long as they like of their own free will.

14,669. I suppose the agent seldom continues to furnish supplies after the men have returned from their whaling voyage?-They don't get any supplies afterwards, as a rule.

14,670. Is there anything more you wish to say?-There are some parts of Mr. Hamilton's report which I think I ought to notice.

14,671. Have you heard any part of the evidence of Mr. Robertson or Mr. Jamieson with regard to that report?-I heard a part of Mr. Jamieson's evidence this morning, but I did not hear Mr. Robertson's. Mr. Hamilton says, 'Any man who carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man.' That is incorrect, so far as my experience goes.

14,672. Have you known any case of a man who did carry his custom to another shop?-Yes, I have known several cases of that kind, but I could not name them. There have been men who had money in their possession at the time of engaging, who did not purchase their outfit from us.

14,673. Would there be one in 1870 of all the men engaged by you?-I could not say; but I have known some of the men who purchased their outfit from us for cash at the time of engaging and who had no accounts whatever.

14,674. Were any lists exchanged of these men?-Never, to my knowledge.

14,675. The only lists you know of were those which related to men in your debt who had not paid up this debt?-Yes, and that was only previous to 1867.

14,676. Have there been no such lists exchanged since then?-Not that I remember.

14,677. Have you verbally mentioned the names of such men to other agents, and made inquiries about them since 1867?-I don't remember any particular case.

14,678. May you have done so?-Yes.

14,679. And many such inquiries have been made at you?-It is possible. I don't remember of it being done, but I would not say that it had.

14,680. Does it happen in your experience that green hands have generally to hand back the whole of their earnings to the agent?- Green hands frequently do so, where their wages are low.

14,681. And they may perhaps remain still in the agent's debt?- Possibly in some cases they do, but it is the interest of the agent now to have as few green hands as possible.

14,682. Was that his interest before 1867?-Not so much as it is now. Mr. Hamilton also says that it is the interest of the agent to delay the settlement until he gets the men in debt to him again. That is not the fact.

14,683. Do you mean that it is not the fact that it is his interest to do so?-It is not his interest; and it is not the fact that he does it, to my knowledge.

14,684. Is it not the interest of the agent to get man to take goods from him?-It is the interest of the agent to sell goods to a man, but not to get him into his debt.

14,685. But if a man takes goods from the agent, is he not in the agent's debt?-He does not leave it as debt. When a man gets his wages, it is the interest of the agent to sell as much goods to him as possible; but that is a cash transaction over the counter after the settlement

14,686. Are there many such cash transactions?-A good many-not so many at the time of settlement; but we see the men repeatedly after they have been paid.

14,687. Do they come back to you and spend part of the cash they have got?-Yes. I cannot tell whether it is the same cash or not, but they do spend cash. We see them almost daily.

14,688. When you have been settling in Mr. Tait's office with the men who had been at Greenland, was it usual, when they came down from the Custom House, to ask them if they wanted any goods?-Sometimes we did that, and sometimes not; but we never pressed them to take goods.

14,689. But it was not unusual to ask them?-We might ask them if they required anything, and sometimes they bought something from us after settlement.

14,690. In that case would it be added to their account at the time, or would there just be a handing back of the cash to you for the goods?-Just a handing back of the cash.

14,691. Such purchases are usually made after settlement?-They are always made after settlement, at least almost invariably; but occasionally I have seen men purchasing goods and laying them aside until they got their money, and then paying for them. In that case the goods were not entered into any book, but were just put up into a parcel and laid aside for them.

[Page 369]

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Dr. ROBERT COWIE, examined.

14,692. You are a medical practitioner in Lerwick?-I am.

14,693. Are you a native of Shetland?-Yes; a native of Lerwick.

14,694. Have you lived here almost all your life?-Yes; except when I was south for my education.

14,695. I presume you have had many opportunities of mixing with all orders of people here in the course of the practice of your profession, and also previously to some extent?-I have.

14,696. You are acquainted with the fact that a system of barter prevails very extensively in different parts of the islands?-Yes, almost universally.

14,697. And that both fish and hosiery are paid for, to a considerable extent, in that way?-Yes.

14,698. With regard to hosiery, has it come within your own knowledge that knitters are paid in goods to an extent that is unwholesome for themselves and for the community?-Yes, in drapery goods.

14,699. In what way has that been forced upon your attention?- Sometimes in the discharge of my professional duties, I have observed that there was an utter disproportion between the clothing and the food of these knitters. I am no judge as to the value or quality of the goods, but many of them are clothed in a very gaudy, showy manner, and in a way quite inconsistent with their position in life. I have reason to know at the same time that their food is utterly insufficient. I have known knitting girls, one might almost say, starving or very nearly, starving, when they were at the same time very well dressed or dressed in a very showy manner; and I would give an illustration of that. I remember one Sunday, between one and two o'clock in the afternoon, being called in to see a poor man, in Lerwick. He was very ill, and evidently dying. He asked me if I could prescribe anything that would relieve him, and I replied that I knew of no medicine that could really do him good,-that the only thing I could recommend was some sherry wine and beef tea. His reply was, if it came to that, it was utterly out of the question, for he had not the means of getting such luxuries. He told me that all the money they had in the house was a single shilling, and that they had lived for some days, as far as I remember, entirely upon tea and bread. A few minutes after having that conversation with him, I saw the poor man's daughter-who was his only daughter, so far as I am aware, and who lived with him-going to church, dressed like a fine lady. That struck me as being a very deplorable state of matters. Here were a family who were on the verge of starvation, and unable to get medical comforts for their dying parent, and yet the daughter, who was a knitter, was I might almost say magnificently dressed.

14,700. Is that the strongest and most striking instance of the kind that has come under your notice?-I think it is, in that form.

14,701. Have you seen other instances in which you were led to believe that the state of things was similar?-Yes, very similar. On many occasions knitters have consulted me as to their health, complaining of certain forms of dyspepsia. I inquired as to their food, and found it was very insufficient, while at the same time they were well dressed, at least apparently well dressed. But I would remark as to their dress, that I have reason to believe that the dress which the knitting girls in Lerwick and girls of the lower orders all over Shetland wear is not adapted to the climate. There is too much cotton in it; it is too thin, and it is insufficient to protect them from the inclemency of the weather. In former times in Shetland a great deal of the clothing worn by the females was home-made: it consisted of woollen garments, which were much better adapted to the climate.

14,702. Is it not the case that in the country districts the women still make the greater part of their own clothing?-I suppose they do; but what I intended to refer to just now was their inside clothing. I think there is too much cotton worn now, and not sufficient warm worsted clothing.

14,703. Then the worsted underclothing which the Shetland women make is entirely for the market, not for their own use?- I fear they sell it and buy cotton underclothing instead. I believe the disproportion, as I may term it, which exists between the food and the clothing of these knitters is chiefly, if not entirely, due to the system of truck by which they are paid.

14,704. Do you refer to the difficulty which they have in getting money for their work?-Yes; and to the fact that they get goods, chiefly drapery goods, for it.

14,705. Do you think that induces them to take larger quantity of dress than they really need?-I think so.

14,706. But at the same time you say that they do not have a sufficient amount of good underclothing?-Yes. I do not think they have a sufficient amount of good, warm, substantial underclothing for the climate in which they live.

14,707. Might they not get that if they required it in return for their work?-I suppose they might, but the fact is that they very seldom have it. They rather prefer to take showy outside clothing.

14,708. If women are reduced to distress for food, but yet have a considerable supply of handsome clothing, would you not suppose it natural that they should have recourse to the pawnbroker's shop in winter, or when they were in straits?-I would, but I am not quite sure if there is a pawnbroker's shop here. There is a sort of pawn in the town, but I don't think it is much resorted to. I have no doubt, if they were in a large city, they would resort to the pawnbroker's; but pawnbroking is practically unknown here. The people, some way or other, have not got into the way of it.

14,709. Have you known any cases in which women, in a state of distress for food, have sold their clothes to private individuals for it, or have endeavoured to do so?-I am aware that there are one or more old women employed, either regularly or occasionally, in going round the houses and hawking clothes which had been obtained by knitters for their goods. On one occasion I met in with one of these women. I was seeing a patient in the house of one of the lower orders, and the woman came in with some article of children's clothing to sell. I inquired how she had got it, and I was told that she was hawking it for some person who had got it for knitting goods.

14,710. Then she had not bought it, but was selling it as the agent of another person?-Yes. She was selling it, as I understood, as the agent of the knitter.

14,711. Have you had opportunities of obtaining any knowledge with regard to the amount of immorality which prevails in Lerwick?-I have heard, and I have reason to believe, that it prevails to a very considerable extent; but I have had no means of obtaining any accurate knowledge on the subject.

14,712. Are you aware whether the amount of professional prostitution is greater in Lerwick than in other places of the same size?-I am not very well acquainted with small towns similar to Lerwick; there are only one or two small towns that I know well. I am better acquainted with large cities, such as Edinburgh and Aberdeen; but I scarcely think that in Lerwick there is a greater amount of professionals prostitution, in proportion to the size of the place, than there would be in a seaport town of a similar size.

14,713. Would you say there was a larger amount of occasional prostitution?-I believe there is. I don't think I could prove it, but I have good reason to believe so.

14,714. Is that from knowledge which you have obtained in the discharge of your professional duties, or is it from general observation?-It is partly from hearsay, and partly from general observation.

14,715. Can you ascribe that in any degree to the system of barter which prevails?-I think it may to a large extent be accounted for by that system; because the knitters, I believe, are insufficiently supplied with food, and they are supplied with plenty of handsome clothing. They are thus led to walk about the streets good deal, and are in that way led into evil courses.

[Page 370]

14,716. Is that an opinion which you have entertained for some time?-Yes. I think it is to be expected in the ordinary course of events, that if women, have insufficient food and plenty of showy clothing, they will be more apt to go astray than others who have comfortable homes, and plenty of food and clothing in keeping with their position in life.

14,717. You are aware, I presume, that statistics show the amount of illegitimacy in Shetland to be less than it is in many parts of Scotland?-I am aware of that.

14,718. Is not that inconsistent to some extent, or apparently inconsistent, with the opinion you have expressed about the state of morals in Lerwick?-It is apparently inconsistent; but I am afraid that in Shetland we get credit for a higher state of morality than we are entitled to, in the country districts.

14,719. Do you mean that the system of registration here is not efficient?-I mean merely that the Registrar General's returns do not always show that illegitimacy corresponds with immorality.

14,720. Is that in consequence of the marriages being celebrated at such times as show the existence of what clergymen call antenuptial fornication?-It is partly in consequence of that, but not altogether.

14,721. Then is it possible to reconcile these statistics entirely with the prevalence of an excessive amount of immorality?-I have heard attempts to explain it, but I don't know if they were satisfactory. However, it is such a delicate matter that I would rather not enter further into it.

14,722. Have you no satisfactory explanation to give on the subject?-No.

14,723. Has it fallen within your observation, that the want of food has had any physical effect upon the women employed in knitting?-I remember being recently told by a respectable married woman, who was very well acquainted with the habits of knitting girls, that many of them enjoyed very good health, and felt pretty well and vigorous during the first two or three days of the week, but became languid towards the end of it; and she explained that circumstance in this way: These girls got an extra supply of food on the Saturday night, and they walked about a good deal during the Sunday, which, as it were, recruited them; but towards the end of the week their supplies got exhausted, and they did not enjoy much out-door exercise, and therefore became languid.

14,724. How do you account for their obtaining an extra supply of food on the Saturday night?-They were probably settling then. Many of them, I may explain, are not mere knitters, but are otherwise occupied. They are very ready, I believe, to take other work when they can get it, and many of them live not wholly by their own exertions, but partly on their parents and friends; therefore there would be extra supplies of food and groceries going into the house on the Saturday night, which they had enjoyed during the first days of the week.

14,725. Have you been aware of cases in which the way of dealing has led to the formation of imprudent habits on the part of the women?-I think they are very extravagant as regards dress.

14,726. Do they also expend a great deal of money on what may be called luxuries in food, rather than upon what is necessary, when they have money?-I think they do. The lower orders in Shetland use a very large amount of tea, much more than is good for them. It is very strong tea, and they take it very frequently during the day-I think to an unwholesome extent. I think it injures their health very considerably.

14,727. Is oatmeal still used to a great extent as an article of diet?-It is used in the country districts, but I think not so much in Lerwick. Here it is more loaf bread that is used.

14,728. In what form is oatmeal generally used in the houses of the poorer Shetlanders?-I think it is chiefly in cakes, what would be called scones in Scotland. I don't think it is so much in porridge, so far as I am aware.

14,729. Is that the bulk of the diet of a fisherman's family?-That, and fish and potatoes.

14,730. Don't you think that, taking the Shetlanders as a body, they are as well off with regard to diet and clothing as any similar class in Scotland?-I think the peasantry in the country are so, on the whole. The lower orders in Lerwick differ considerably from those in the country districts; there are more employments open to them. I think the people in the country are better fed, on the whole, than those in Lerwick. They enjoy more fresh air, and are a better-off class of people, on the whole, than the lower orders here.

14,731. Has any special matter come within your observation that you think of mentioning with regard to the system of barter in other trades than hosiery?-Nothing very special. I think the system of the men being compelled to fish to the landlords or tacksmen on certain estates is a bad system, and should be abolished. One of the many evils resulting from it is that very often men don't know whether they have money or are in debt. They may think they have means, and at settling time they may discover they have nothing.

14,732. Would that not happen all the same if the creditor were a merchant who had no connection with the land?-It might, it arises from the system of long credits.

14,733. Have you known cases in which a man was under a false impression as to the balance at his banker's, as one may say?-I have. The other day a man in the country sent for me to visit his wife professionally; and on leaving he told me he had not the means in the house, but that he had sufficient to pay me, and good deal more, at the merchant's. I afterwards saw the merchant with whom he dealt, and he told me something similar. He also told me to send the man's account to him, which I did; but a few weeks afterwards the merchant wrote me that he had been mistaken,- that he found, instead of the man having means in his hands, that he was in debt, and he had had to advance him his rent, and that I could not get my account paid in the meantime; but that he would do his best to get it for me at a future time.

14,734. Is it a common thing to have accounts paid in that way through the merchant?-Very common.

14,735. The merchant, in short, appears in many cases to transact the whole of a man's business affairs?-Yes; he appears to pay his rent very often, and to transact other business for him.

14,736. He pays accounts for him of all sorts?-Yes.

14,737. So that the man may know nothing at all of his money affairs?-He may know little or nothing.

14,738. Do you speak of that as being a general thing within your own knowledge?-Yes.

14,739. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that system of dependence upon the merchant upon the character of the people generally?-Yes; they are deficient in that sturdy independence, if I may so express it, which characterizes the peasantry throughout the rest of Scotland. The system fosters a dependent, time-serving, deceitful disposition, and it cripples enterprise.

14,740. Don't you find at the same time that the people are generally very well able to take care of themselves in any ordinary transaction? They have intelligence sufficient?-Yes; they are sharp enough. The Shetland peasantry possess very considerable intelligence; but there is in them a want of proper independence.

14,741. Do you mean that the position in which they are develops a kind of cunning rather than acuteness or cleverness?-Yes; it fosters a sort of low cunning. The system having been continued, one might almost say, for centuries has fostered that element in their character.

14,742. That you represent as being the principal defect in the Shetland character?-It is one of the principal defects.

14,743. In other respects, do you not think they are a very superior class to the ordinary run of peasantry in Scotland?-They are careful and intelligent, and they are [Page 371] pretty well-bred. They have a good deal of the , more so than the most of peasants but there is that want of proper independence amongst them which I have mentioned, and they are of a very conservative disposition. I mean by that, that there is a want of desire to better themselves; for instance, to improve their houses, or to produce better crops, or to educate their families. There is a want of proper ambition among them; they are content to remain very much as they are.

14,744. Do you mean to represent that as being the effect of the system of barter which prevails?-I think it is partly the result of the system of barter, and partly of the short leases which are given of the land, and the want of any encouragement to improve their land and houses.

14,745. As a rule, the houses in Shetland are still in a very defective condition?-Very much so indeed. As far as we can see, they are in the same condition as they have been for centuries.

14,746. Are there many districts in the country where the houses still consist of a single room and have no chimney?-There are a good many instances in which they want chimneys, but they have generally two apartments-a but and a ben end, as it is called.

14,747. In such houses how is an exit furnished for the smoke?- Just through holes in the roof called 'lums;' but I am glad to observe a disposition to correct that in some districts. In many houses lately I have noticed that they have built wooden chimneys, and these improve the houses very much.

14,748. That has been so in Unst; but perhaps your professional duties don't take you so far?-I have not been in Unst for some years.

14,749. But in the course of your professional visits you have to travel over the whole extent of the mainland?-Yes, over the most of it.

14,750. Formerly, I understand, glazed windows were very rare in Shetland?-Very rare.

14,751. Has there been a change in that respect in recent years?- Yes, a very considerable change; but in some of the more primitive districts glazed windows do not exist yet.

14,752. In that case, is the light only admitted by the door?-Only by the door, and the lum or hole in the roof.

14,753. Are there many houses of that description in Shetland still?-A good many. I am afraid I could not say accurately how many.

14,754. Can you say whether these houses are inhabited by people who are pretty well-to-do as peasants?-Yes; I believe many of them are pretty well-to-do. They have bits of ground, and good earnings from their fishing, and are free of debt; and probably many of them have some means, although that is not known. It is one peculiarity of their character, that they don't like it to be known when they have money. I believe many of the men have considerable means in the banks, but they conceal it.

14,755. Have you had occasion to observe that yourself?-I don't know that I have had direct occasion to observe it; but I have heard it, and I believe it to be the fact.

14,756. Is it the current belief among those with whom you converse, that there are many of the fishermen who have means of their own, which they conceal from other people?-Yes.

14,757. What would you say was the character of the Shetland people with regard to sobriety?-I should say that, on the whole, they are very sober and steady; and I may give an illustration of that. It is well known that the Shetlanders as seamen are very highly prized at ports in the south, such as Liverpool and Shields; and very often a shipmaster, when desiring a crew, will put into the advertisement 'Shetland men preferred.' I believe the reason for that preference is not so much that the Shetlanders are better seamen, although they are as good if not better than others, but because they are more steady and more to be depended upon. For instance, I have heard of a shipmaster who, if he had occasion to land at Quebec or some port in America, and had to take a boat's crew on shore with him to bring him back again at night, he would select the Shetland men in his crew for that purpose if there were any, as he was more sure of having them in waiting for him at the time he wanted. That is not the result of personal observation, but it is what I have heard on good authority. I may state further, as a proof of their sobriety, that I have had occasion to examine it very large number of Shetland seamen in my capacity as Admiralty surgeon and agent. I have held that office for five and a half years, and during that time I have examined probably between 500 and 600 men, and I almost never yet found any traces amongst them of venereal disease, which is it very common thing amongst seamen. That is a proof of the steady habits of the Shetland men.

14,758. I understand there are very few public-houses in Shetland?-Very few. I think there is only one public-house in the mainland of Shetland outside of Lerwick, but there are several places holding grocers' licences where the men can buy liquor.

14,759. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I don't know that there is anything further, except that I may state it as my opinion, that it would be better, both for merchants and their customers, if the barter system were abolished and all transactions were carried on in cash. I believe the system of long credits is very injurious to all the parties concerned in it.

14,760. Do you think habits of independence would be fostered among the Shetland people if they received their wages or other payments in cash?-Yes; habits of independence and enterprise would be fostered, and I believe the merchants would be able to make better use of their money by turning over their capital more frequently.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, PETER MOODIE, examined.

14,761. Are you it seaman and fisherman in Lerwick?-I am.

14,762. Have you been for a number of years at the sealing and whaling?-I have been at it since 1855, exclusive of two years when I was south.

14,763. Did you always ship from Lerwick?-Always.

14,764. From what agent?-I have been from them all. The first year I shipped was from Hay & Co., the next from Mr. Leask; and I have been from Hay & Co., Mr. Leask, and Mr. George Reid Tait ever since.

14,765. Did you get your outfit from Hay & Co. in 1855?-I did. I was then a boy, and I was glad to get it from them, because I had no person to give it to me except the agent.

14,766. Is it usual for green hands to get their outfit from the agent who employs them?-Yes. I don't think they would get it from any one else.

14,767. Did you pay off your outfit in the first year?-I did, and I had something to get.

14,768. Have you always had something to get ever since?-No, not every year. One year our ship had to come home because the master had fallen from the mast-head, and I was not clear with the agent upon voyage; but I shipped again to Davis Straits, and I did clear it off before the end of the season.

14,769. Do you always get a large quantity of supplies from the agent you ship with?-If I want it, I do, but if I like, I can get my first month's advance and my half-pay ticket; only, I find that the agents can supply me with everything I wish, and I have not taken a halfpay ticket except in one year, and I sold it as soon as I got it. I found, however, that I could get my goods as cheap from the agents as from the grocer's shop; and besides, I found that when I took my ticket to a grocer he did not like it. But the agents will allow you to take whatever you want. I have seen me go into an agent's shop in Lerwick about Christmas, and he would advance me 10s. or 15s. or £1 if I wanted it, and I paid him up for it, perhaps in the course of the [Page 372] next year; whereas I don't think many of the grocers would have advanced me one penny.

14,770. Don't you think your wife could have got her goods cheaper if she had had the money to pay for them?-No. I have never found that I could get them any cheaper. I have had groceries from a grocer's shop, and I have had the same things from agents, and I have found them to be all the same price.

14,771. It was the practice some years settle your accounts at the agent's shop, just in the same way that a fisherman settles with his curer at the end of the season?-Yes, we did that regularly.

14,772. For some years back, however, you have had your wages paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes.

14,773. Have you had them paid without any deduction except your advance?-Yes, except that and the ship's bill. If I had taken any goods from the agent before I went out, of course I got my money, and I could go and pay him when I wanted. He did not take it from me at the Custom House.

14,774. Did the agent ever seek to deduct the amount of his account at the Custom House?-Never from me. I cannot speak for anybody but myself.

14,775. Did you never see it attempted?-I did one year, but that was before they understood exactly how it was to be done. They had made out our account of wages so that the amount of their account was taken off; but as soon as we came to the Shipping Office, the shipping master told the agent that it was not to be done in that way. He altered our accounts of wages so that the money was all given to us, and then we went back to the agent's shop and paid him.

14,776. Was that in 1867 or 1868?-I don't remember which it was. I think it was in 1867.

14,777. Has any deduction of that sort been made since?-Never from me.

14,778. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House to the agent's office and settle your account with him?-I generally do so, if I think the agent is in his office; but if he is settling with some others besides, and has to wait with them at the Custom House, I may wait until the next day and then go along and settle it.

14,779. Do you generally go down from the Custom House in company with the agent or the clerk who has been paying you?- Generally I do. I think it is as well to pay my debt as long as I am able, rather than to spend the money, and perhaps not be able to pay afterwards.

14,780. Have you any difficulty in getting an engagement in a good ship?-I have never had any difficulty in getting an engagement from any of the agents I applied to, either from Hay & Co. or Mr Leask or Mr Tait. If I told them I wished to go in such a ship, they generally gave me a chance, if I was pleased with the wages; and if the wages were low and I would not go, I generally got an engagement in some other ship.

14,781. Did you ever get your outfit or supplies from some other agent than the one you engaged with?-No. I never did that, because I found I could have no advantage by it. I have found the system better here than ever I did in the south, because here, if I got my first month's advance, I could get a half-pay ticket along with it; but in the south when I shipped, I got a month's advance, but very seldom a half-pay ticket. In some places I have paid 2s. in the pound, and sometimes 3s. in the pound, for cashing my note; while here the agents don't charge any money for cashing an advance note at all. In Glasgow I have paid 2s., and in the Sailors' Home I have paid 1s. 6d. for that, but here I pay nothing to the agents; at least I have never done it.

14,782. When you take an advance note, do you generally cash it?-Yes, here I do.

14,783. Are you not content to take it out in advances of goods?- If I require it I take it; and if not, I do not. They never asked me to take it in that way. I have come into the office, and I said I wanted my advance note cashed. It is not supposed to be paid until after the ship leaves, but generally the practice with us has been to come down as soon as soon as we have finished signing and ask to get it cashed. Perhaps there is not enough money in the office at the time, and they will give us £1, and say that we will get the rest afterwards. However, I may be willing to take it until I can get it all, and I came back again and get it all.

14,784. When you come down to settle you account at the office, are you usually asked if you want any more goods?-When you come down to settle you account at the office, are you usually asked if you want any more goods?-I was never asked to go and settle my account and to take more goods; but after the money was laid down before me, and I went into the shop to settle any small account I had, they would say, 'Do you want any clothes, Peter?', and I would say 'No;' and there would be no more about it.

14,785. How do you do about the last payment of oil-money? Is it paid at the Custom House?-Generally it is. It has been paid to me for the last two years; but last year it was not, because I was away when it was due. They asked me if I wished to go to the Custom House with it, and I said I did not; that it was all the same to me if I got the money when I cleared the ship's book.

14,786. Have you sometimes had a large sum to get for a last payment of oil-money?-Yes. One year I got about £5 for it from Mr Leask.

14,787. Do you take payment of that when it becomes due, or is it not paid to you usually until you go to get engaged for the next year's voyage?-I have never waited so long for it as the next year's voyage.

14,788. When you get your second payment of oil-money, is it just put into your hand, even although you have been running an account?-Yes. If I have been running an account they lay down the money to me, and then they tell me what my account is, and pay it.

14,789. Do you continue to run an account with the agent after getting your first payment?-Sometimes I do, but very seldom.

14,790. Do you pay in cash at the time for any supplies you get after you have received your first payment?-Yes; whatever I get I pay for them at the time.

14,791. Do you deal in any particular place for them?-Yes; in R. & C. Robertson's.

14,792. You don't deal during winter with the agent who had engaged you for the voyage?-When I have got an engagement through a particular agent, I don't think it is right that I should take the money from him and give it to another; and therefore I get what I want for the voyage from the agent that I getting money from.

14,793. But why do you prefer dealing with R. & C. Robertson in the winter time?-Because Mr. Robertson and I were boys at school together; and when I had a house of my own, he supplied me with goods when I wanted them. That was my only reason for preferring him to any one else.

14,794. But notwithstanding that, you prefer to go to the agent for the supplies you want, when you are on your voyage?-Yes. I have tried it both ways. I have tried taking money out, and buying what I wanted with it, but I did not find that it made any difference.

14,795. Is there not a sort of understanding among seamen who go upon Greenland voyages that they are to take their supplies from the agent who employs them?-I cannot say for anybody but myself. There may be such an understanding, but I cannot say. They may perhaps have asked me if I wanted some small things, and they were there for me if I wanted them; but that was in addition to my first month's advance, and they ran their risk of being paid for them.

14,796. But is there not such an understanding among the men, that they are to get their supplies from the agent who employs them?-Yes, that is the general understanding among the men; but the agent does not bind them in any way to take them. They never did that to me; I don't know what they may have done to others.

14,797. Might the men not stand a chance of not having a good engagement next year if they took their custom elsewhere?-That is wherein the agent loses; [Page 373] at least I don't know if they lose, but they run a chance of losing when the men go off to another agent, because they have then to lie out of their money. If they have made advances to the amount of £3 or £4 to a boy who has only 15s. or 16s. a month, and who will only be out three months on the voyage, they cannot get their money from him then; and perhaps they may never get it, because the boy may go upon a south voyage, and then they lose sight of him. There have been cases of that kind which have come within my own knowledge. I was shipwrecked in 1869, and young lad who was along with me told me he owed 10s. to Mr. Tait. We came back to Shetland again, but he went south two months afterwards, and I don't know if Mr. Tait has been paid yet. The boy has not come back to Shetland again, at any rate.

14,798. But that was not the question I was asking you. What I asked was, if you did not take your custom to the merchant who employed you, would you stand a chance of not getting a good engagement next year?-I have never had any difficulty in that way. I have got an engagement through Mr. Leask, and taken £3, 2s. out of his shop for a voyage of six weeks and a few days; and I came back again next year, and got a ship the same as ever. I went in the same ship again.

14,799. Is there anything more you wish to say?-I went out for Mr. Tait last year. He has resigned the business now to his brother-in-law and another, but I have no doubt I shall go back to the shop and get ship from them; or I could get one from Messrs. Hay the same as ever, if they had any ships this year.

14,800. Have you ever paid a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-Yes.

14,801. Have you ever got anything out of it?-Yes, twice; both from Mr. Leask and Mr. Tait.

14,802. Had you much to get?-The first time I had anything to get was after I had been paying in two years, and I got 30s. when I came back.

14,803. What did you lose that year?-I lost different things that I could hardly name.

14,804. Did you get the things replaced?-No.

14,805. Did you get cash for the 30s.?-Yes.

14,806. Was that cash put into your account?-No, I got the money paid down to me.

14,807. Was it paid down in the same way the next time?-Yes. At that time I got it from Mr. Leask. In fact I got it from him before the money was actually payable, because I was going south.

14,808. When was that?-In 1864. I was wrecked in the 'Emma,' and I wished to get south; but I had not money enough, and I went to Mr. Leask, and he advanced it to me.

14,809. How much does your outfit generally cost at the beginning of the year?-I could not exactly say. Some years it will be more, and some less. There are some of the men who have people that make things for them, but others have got nobody to do that, and therefore they have generally more to get from the agents.

14,810. Do you generally lay out £1 or £2 in that way before you start upon your voyage?-Yes; and sometimes £4 or £5.

14,811. Is that an unusual sum?-Yes.

14,812. Who insures the outfit?-The agent generally insures it for his own advantage, so that if the ship is lost he gets his money.

14,813. But they charge the insurance to you?-Yes, they charge the insurance to us if we tell him to insure it. For a good many years I told the agent to insure for me, but I have not lost any ship. When I did lose a ship I have not been charged for it; at least if I was, it was not with my knowledge.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Daniel Inkster, examined.

14,814. Are you a seaman living in Lerwick?-Yes. I have been here for the last two years. Before then I lived in the North Isles, on the property which is now in Mr. Walker's hands.

14,815. Have you been at the sealing and whaling for a number of years?-Yes. I have been there for the last fifteen years, but not every year. I was at the ling fishing for about seven years during that time, at Cullivoe, where Mr. Peter Sandison lives.

14,816. Why did you leave Yell?-I was one of Major Cameron's tenants, and I was put away by his factor, Mr. Walker. He offered us leases but of course we knew it was not in our power to take them.

14,817. Why was that?-Because our farms were so small; and when we had to take one-fifth of them for rye-grass, that made them a great deal less. Then the scattald was taken away from us; but we still had to pay our rent, for all that.

14,818. Were you offered a lease?-Yes; but the lease was all on his side, and there was nothing on our side at all.

14,819. When you were in Yell, were you bound to fish for any one?-No. There was no binding at all.

14,820. Where did you get your supplies?-From Mr. Sandison. We always fished for him, and got our supplies from him. I was three years under Mr. Walker. During the first two years I paid my rent, but in the third year we had either to take his lease or go and I knew that I was not able to do it. He said to me that I would have to leave; but I did not know where to go, and I had a family to support. The last year I was on that property I came a little short of my rent, and I wanted him to wait for it until I came down to Lerwick; but he said he was not to wait any longer. He asked me what means I had to give him, and I said I had not much means at all. I said if he chose to take the crop he might do it, but that I would be left to starve afterwards. He took the crop at his own hand, and never put a value upon anything at all; but he told me that if I was not off the ground by such a time he would put me off. He went away to the south at that time, and when Candlemas came round I got a room in Lerwick before he came back. He has done that to a great many more besides me.

14,821. Then you had to leave because you had not paid your rent?-He got the corn and potatoes for the rent.

14,822. But you did not give him money; and if you had paid your rent he would not have taken your crop?-No; but many a proprietor has to wait for month or a couple of months for that, and he sometimes does not get it even then.

14,823. Were you not fishing for Mr. Sandison then?-Yes; but there was a very small fishing that year.

14,824. Had Mr. Sandison paid your rent before?-No; I had paid it.

14,825. You had not been at the whale fishing for several years before that?-No; but I have been for the last two years. I have gone to it since I have been living in Lerwick.

14,826. Whom do you ship with?-For the last two years I have gone out for Mr. Leask.

14,827. Did you require an outfit when you went two years ago?- Yes. I got it from Mr. Leask. It cost about £5.

14,828. What were your wages?-£2, 5s.

14,829. Were you both at the sealing and whaling that year?-Yes; I went both voyages in the same ship.

14,830. Were you due a large account to Mr. Leask at the end of the year?-About £16 or £17.

14,831. Was that for supplies to your family?-Yes.

14,832. Had you any money to get for your voyage?-Yes. I had £12 to get in the first year.

14,833. Had you £28 of earnings for the year?-Yes, for the first and second payments.

14,834. Was that money paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes.

14,835. How much of it?-The whole of it; and then I went down and paid what I was due at the shop after I had been paid off at the Custom House.

14,836. Who went down from the Custom House with you?- There were a good many more than me going [Page 374] down,- men who had been settled with at the same time.

14,837. Did you all go down together to Mr. Leask's?-Yes.

14,838. Who settled with you there?-Mr. Robertson.

14,839. Did you go down with him?-No. One of Mr. Leask's men came up to the Custom House and paid us there, and when we came back Mr. Robertson settled with us at the shop. The person who settled with us at the Custom House was either Andrew Jamieson or John Jamieson, I don't remember which.

14,840. Did he not go down to the shop with you?-No.

14,841. Did he say anything to you about going down to the shop?-No.

14,842. Had you seen Mr. Robertson or any of Mr. Leask's people before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes, one of them told us we had to go there, and that he would be there to settle with us.

14,843. Did he tell you anything else?-He did not tell me anything.

14,844. Had he arranged with you before about meeting him at the Custom House for the settlement?-Yes, either the night before or that morning.

14,845. Had he sent for you to tell you about that?-No; we were waiting there for a settlement.

14,846. Did he tell you at that time how much your account was with Mr. Leask?-Yes.

14,847. And did he tell you that you would have to pay it when you got your money?-Yes.

14,848. Accordingly you did pay it when you got your money, as you had been told?-Yes.

14,849. Did you get an engagement from Mr. Leask in the following year?-Yes.

14,850. Had you an account with him in the same way then, and some money to get at the end of the season?-Yes.

14,851. Were you told in the same way that you would be settled with, and that you would have your account to pay to Mr. Leask after you got your money?-Yes.

14,852. Did you come down from the Custom House with Mr. Jamieson then?-I did not.

14,853. You had been told before that you had to go down to the shop?-Yes.

14,854. And you did go down and pay your money?-Yes.

14,855. Had the rest of the men been told the same thing, that they were to come down and pay their accounts after receiving their money at the Custom House?-Yes, all the men who were in town that day.

14,856. Did you get any of your supplies anywhere else than at Mr. Leask's?-No; not when I was in his employment.

14,857. Why not?-Because I thought I could get my things just as cheap from him as I could get them anywhere else; and another reason was, that if I was short of money I could go and ask him for a supply, or for a little money; whereas if I had gone to any of the small groceries in the town they would not have been able to give me that.

14,858. Where do you get your supplies in the winter time when you are at home?-We generally take couple of bolls of meal from Mr. Leask and pay for them, or get an advance of them if no trade is doing in the town, or if any of us are in bad health.

14,859. Do you sometimes get your supplies elsewhere in winter?-Generally if we have any money, we can buy them at the cheapest market. There is no particular place where we go to.

14,860. Do you sometimes find a cheaper market somewhere else?-No. Mr. Leask can give an article as cheap as anybody in Lerwick can do. There is a Mr. Fraser, a grocer in Lerwick, from whom we got some things in the dead of winter. We take them from him during the week, and pay him on Saturday night for them.

14,861. Are his things as good and cheap as Mr. Leask's?-Just the same. He only charges us the currency.

14,862. Do you employ yourself at any trade during the winter?-I work at anything I have the chance of, when my health permits me. If I get the chance of discharging vessels, or doing a day's work, or anything of that kind, I take it; or sometimes we go to the fishing in a small boat.

14,863. Do you always subscribe to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund when you go the whale fishing?-Yes. I have been nineteen years in that Fund.

14,864. Did you ever get anything out of it?-I have got out of it twice. I was cast away in 1863 at Davis Straits, and I had £2, 15s. to get then. I got it in cash from Mr. George Reid Tait. The second time was when I lost a small boat by a storm at sea.

14,865. Were you at the fishing at the time?-No, the boat was secured, but the water came in and took her away. I applied to the agent, and he valued the boat, and sent the money to me.

14,866. Were you running an account with the agent at that time?-No.

14,867. Were you running an account with the agent at the other time when you got money from the Society?-The first time I was. I had an account with Mr. Reid Tait then, and I got the money from him which I had to get from the Society.

14,868. Do you know whether you pay insurance for your outfit when you get one?-I have done so, but not during the last two years.

14,869. Why?-Because I always insured so much on the voyage myself, perhaps upon £7 or £8.

14,870. Why do you do that?-In case the ship is lost, and then of course we get that paid to us until the insurance is taken off.

14,871. Who do you arrange that with?-With the agent who takes out the insurance for us-Mr. Leask or any of the agents. They take 1s. 8d. per £1 for insuring.

14,872. Is that for insuring the ship?-Yes.

14,873. Then it is not the agent's advance to you that is insured?- Perhaps they insure that themselves, but I don't know whether we pay for it or not.

14,874. Is the insurance you have mentioned the only one you pay?-Yes; the only one I pay, to my knowledge.

14,875. Do you get any writing for that insurance?-It has never been asked.

14,876. Has it ever been offered to you?-No; it never was offered that I have been aware of, because we always had to go to the ship and leave here to go south. Therefore I wrote to my wife to go to the merchant about the insurance.

14,877. Do you not join the ship at Lerwick?-Yes; but we are landed in Shetland from the sealing, and the vessel goes south and discharges her oil, and then they send for us to go south and join the ship there. That has been done during the last two years.

14,878. When you get your wife to insure for you, where does she go?-She goes to Mr. Leask.

14,879. Do you not know whether Mr. Leask charges you with an insurance upon your outfit?-No; at least I never was sensible of it.

14,880. Do you not read over your account when you settle it?- Yes, but I never observed that in it.

14,881. Is there no sum for insurance charged in it?-Not to my knowledge; but it may have escaped my notice.

14,882. How does your wife pay for the insurance which you effect?-I pay for it myself at the end of the voyage.

14,883. Who told you about the insurance first?-Mr. Leask or some of his people. I don't know any of them in particular; but of course we have always done it.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ARTHUR JOHNSON, examined.

14,884. Are you a tenant and fisherman at Colafirth, near Ollaberry?-I am.

14,885. Do you go to the ling fishing every year?- [Page 375] Yes. I was one year a hired boy, and I have been thirty-three years a sharesman.

14,886. On whose land are you a tenant?-On that of Mr. Gideon Anderson, Ollaberry. It is let on tack to Mr. John Anderson, his brother, and to Mr. John Robertson, Lerwick.

14,887. How do you pay your rent?-We pay our rent at Hillswick to Mr. John Anderson.

14,888. Is that done when you settle for your fish?-We have to go a day or two after we have settled for our fishing, and pay our rent to Mr. Anderson. We get a line from the man we have settled with and go to Mr. Anderson with it, and then he writes us out a receipt for the rent. We do not get the money to give to him at all.

14,889. Do you settle with Mr. William Irvine at Ollaberry?-Yes.

14,890. Are you bound to sell your fish to him?-He is only the factor for Messrs. Anderson & Co. We are bound to sell our fish to them.

14,891. Are you not at liberty to sell your fish to any other person you please?-Not in the summer time. We have not had liberty to do so for the last four years.

14,892. How do you know that?-Because Mr. John Anderson has told us so himself.

14,893. Have you wished to sell your summer fish to any other person?-Yes. If I was at liberty I could have an advantage by it. I have cured my own fish for nineteen years.

14,894. What advantage would you have by doing that?-We sell to more advantage when we are at liberty, but now we get less from Mr. Anderson than we got before for our salt fish, and we get from £1 to 30s. per ton less than he paid to other men who were free men. Last year he paid the free men £22, and he paid me £20, 10s. for salt fish.

14,895. Was it Mr. Irvine who did that?-Yes. He settled according to Mr. Anderson's order. Mr. Irvine is only the factor, and keeps the shop.

14,896. Were you not free to sell your cured fish to any person you pleased?-I did not think it.

14,897. But probably your cured fish were not of such good quality as those which brought £22?-I would put my character for having good fish against that of any man, because we attended to the curing of our fish ourselves. We only had a boy for washing, but we split and cured them ourselves, and we paid them all the attention we could. I know that the quality was good, because those who knew good fish told us so and I also knew it myself.

14,898. But when you got £20, 10s. offered to you, why did you not take your fish to another market if you thought you could get a better price for them?-It was not in my power then, because the fish were in Leith; they had been shipped there.

14,899. Did you deliver your dried fish without knowing what price you were to get for them?-Yes.

14,900. Why did you do that?-We must do it. We had no cellars of our own, and we had to put them into Mr. Anderson's cellar.

14,901. Why did you not get the price fixed before you delivered them?-Because that is not the practice. When we deliver our fish, they tell us they don't know the price.

14,902. Did you not see the bills of sale after the fish were sold in Leith?-No, I never see them.

14,903. Might you not have seen them if you had asked for it?-I never asked for it.

14,904. Then you have no reason to believe that you got less for your fish than they actually brought when sold in Leith?-I cannot say what the Leith price was.

14,905. But you could have seen the bills of sale if you had asked for them?-I do not think I would have been allowed to see the bills of sale.

14,906. You cannot be sure of that unless you had asked for them?-No, I cannot be sure of that; but I don't believe they would have been shown to me.

14,907. Why did you not ask for them?-I don't know.

14,908. Were you afraid to do that?-No, I was not afraid; but it did not occur to me to do so. I know that last year I was stopped from selling my fish, and free men were paid 8s. 6d., while I was only paid 8s. for them.

14,909. Was that for your green fish?-Yes.

14,910. Then what fish were you selling dry?-Ling, tusk, and cod.

14,911. Were these your winter fish?-No, they were the summer fish.

14,912. But I thought you were bound to deliver your fish green to Mr. Anderson?-No. We had been in the practice of salting them before we delivered them, and we continued to do so until last year; but he stopped us from salting them then.

14,913. I thought you said you had been bound for four years?- Yes. It is four years since we were bound to fish for him regularly; he got the tack then.

14,914. Have you been fishing for Mr. Anderson for these four years?-Yes; three years we delivered the fish to him salt, and one year green.

14,915. Then all you were bound to do was to deliver your fish to him, either salt or green?-Yes.

14,916. You could cure them or not, as you liked?-Yes, for the first three years; but this year he would not allow us to cure them.

14,917. Was that because the quality of your cured fish was not good?-The fish were good.

14,918. Did he not assign that to you as the reason?-No. When I was told not to salt the fish last season, I went to him and asked him if that was on account of bad fish, and he said, No, he could not say that it was.

14,919. Did he give you any reason for not allowing you to continue to cure your own fish?-Very little.

14,920. Did he give any reason at all?-He said that other fishermen in the neighbourhood were thinking that they might be allowed to cure their fish as well.

14,921. Do you think fishermen generally can cure their own fish as well as when they are cured by a factor who gives his whole time to it?-I think so, provided they would pay a little attention to it themselves.

14,922. Do you get your supplies at the shop at Ollaberry?-Yes; or from Mr. Anderson's factor at the fishing station at Hamnavoe.

14,923. Can you get these supplies as cheap at Ollaberry as you can get them anywhere else?-Yes. He made an arrangement last year that the meal was to be all one price, whether it was got at the station or at Ollaberry. We got it a little cheaper by taking it from Ollaberry the year before; but he made the regulation last year that it was to be all one price.

14,924. But do you get it as cheap there as you could get it from any other shop in the country?-No. If we had our money we could get it a little cheaper from Lerwick, or from other places.

14,925. How do you know that?-Because I buy some things from Lerwick, such as meal and tea, and I sometimes get the meal a little cheaper, according as the market there is high or low.

14,926. Have you any pass-books or accounts to show the prices you pay for the articles you get?-No. I kept a pass-book for a year or so, but I rather thought the prices were too high, and it annoyed me to look at it, and so I gave it up.

14,927. Did you think the prices were higher because you had the pass-book?-No. I thought they were rather too high, at any rate.

14,928. Did it not annoy you quite as much to hear the prices in your account read over to you?-When my account was read over at the time when I paid it, I knew that the price was high; but I do not think there was anything in the account except what I had had.

14,929. Is the price of your meal mentioned to you at the time when you get it at Ollaberry?-Very seldom.

14,930. Do you ask to know the price?-Sometimes we ask, and sometimes we do not.

14,931. Does the price vary throughout the season?-[Page 376] Yes, sometimes it does, according, to the rise and fall in the market.

14,932. It is not sold at one price all the year round at that shop?- No.

14,933. Do you buy your own boats at Ollaberry?-I had a boat of my own until four years ago; since then I have had a hired boat. The boat hire is £2, 10s. I got my lines ordered for me from the Glasgow market, because I thought I got them a little cheaper in that way. 21/4 lb. lines cost me 1s. 11d., including freight and everything.

14,934. Do you get any 2-lb. lines?-No; but we can get them at Ollaberry. They charge 2s. for them there. A 21/4 lb. line would be charged 2s. 3d. there if paid in cash, and 2s. 6d. if marked down to be paid for by instalments.

14,935. Can you show me any account for the lines you get from Glasgow?-No; it is five years since got them from there.

14,936. Were the prices you have mentioned as being paid for lines at Ollaberry the same as you would have paid there five years ago?-Yes, the price has been the same. The lines I am using now are the same lines that I got from the market for myself.

14,937. Did you buy a great quantity of them at that time?-I bought 25 buchts.

14,938. Did you get them for yourself only, or was it to sell to your neighbours as well?-It was for myself only.

14,939. Is there anything else you wish to say?-With regard to the fishing, I would like liberty to sell my fish to any man who would give me the highest price for them, or to cure for myself. We had some casks for storing salt, and we broke them down, and parted the staves among the partners to whom they belonged. Then there was a fish vat which is my own, and it is lying on the beach, and no man to buy it from me. It has been a loss to me altogether.

14,940. Was that in consequence of the intimation that you were to fish for your landlord?-Yes, and that I was to stop salting my fish.

14,941. Can you not get all your supplies at a cheaper shop than Ollaberry if you choose?-I could get them from other parties cheaper, but I don't have the money in my hands to get them cheaper at present.

14,942. Can you not get the money as an advance upon your fishing?-No. We could get a little, but not to a great extent.

14,943. Could you not get as much as would buy you a boll of meal?-Yes, but that would not serve for boat for the fishing season. We would need nearly two sacks.

14,944. Could you not get an advance of money upon your fishing large enough to buy that in Lerwick?-I don't think it; but there are other things required besides that. There are tea and sugar, and various other things that are necessary for the use of the men when they are at the fishing.

14,945. Do you think you would buy any cheaper if you had the money to buy these things with yourself, instead of getting them on credit from the merchant?-Yes, I would be cheaper.

14,946. Would you be any better off if your money was paid to you fortnightly or monthly?-Yes, if I was at liberty to sell my fish to any one who would give me the highest price for them; but if I am bound to give my fish to any particular man, and he gives me no higher price than he pleases, I would be no better off.

14,947. From whom did the free men you mentioned get 8s. 6d. for their green fish while you only got 8s?-From Mr. Anderson. That was at the settlement this year.

14,948. How many free men got that price from him?-There were four free men in that boat, and two tenants; but the six men that were in my boat were all tenants.

14,949. Did your boat get 8s. per cwt. for all the fish of the season?-Yes; and the others got 8s. 6d.

14,950. Did the two men in the other boat who were tenants get 8s. 6d. also?-I think they all got the same.

14,951. Where did the four men who were not tenants come from?-They live at Colafirth. They bought their boat and lines, and agreed to pay for them. We asked for 3d. per cwt. extra because the lines we used were our own, but they would not give it.

14,952. Do these four men not live on Mr. Anderson's land?- Two of them live on his land, and two on Busta.

14,953. If two of them live on Anderson's land, how are they free?-They are not free. They sell their fish to him.

14,954. But you said four of the men were free: where do they live?-They live at Colafirth, on the property of Mr. Gifford of Busta.

14,955. Do all the four free men live there?-Yes.

14,956. Was there any reason why they got 6d. more than you, except that they were free men and lived on the Busta property?- No; I knew of no other reason.

14,957. Did they not buy their boat and lines?-Yes, they had their own lines, but the lines we had belonged to ourselves too.

14,958. Was it said that they got a higher price because they had their own boat and lines?-Yes.

14,959. Did Mr. Irvine say so?-Mr. Irvine did not settle with these men. It was Mr. John Anderson himself.

14,960. Did he say that he gave them the higher price because the boat and lines were their own?-Yes.

14,961. He did not say it was because they were free men?-No, he did not say that; but had they not been free men, I don't think they would have got it.

14,962. Have any men who live on Mr. Anderson's estate got boats and lines of their own?-Yes. I think there is one man who has got a boat and lines.

14,963. Did he get 8s. 6d. too?-I don't know what he got.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled.

14,964. I understand you wish to give some additional evidence to what you gave when you were examined at Brae?-Yes. In the first place I spoke as if the party I have from Lunnasting parish was still in my house but it is four months since that party was removed to another house, at the instance of the Board of Lunacy.

14,965. How many different prices of meal are there at Voe, according to the weight sold?-A party taking a whole sack will get it at a less price; when divided and subdivided, the meal rises in price.

14,966. What is the lowest price just now?-I have not bought any lately, and I cannot tell; but there has been flour sold lately for fifteenpence a peck.

14,967. Is there only one price for meal at Vidlin?-Yes; only one price for the same meal, whether you take it in large or in small quantities. That has been my experience.

14,968. Have you any statement to make about the rise in price at Voe according to the southern market?-Yes. I have been told that Mr. Adie has said that it should rise not only in his cellar, but in his book too, according to the market in the south. Henry Manson, post-runner between Voe and Lunna says he heard him say so.

14,969. But that is not what you know yourself; it is only what you have heard from other people?-I have heard Mr. Adie say so myself, that it would rise in price both in his cellar and in his book.

14,970. Do you mean that it rises with the southern market?-Yes; but at Vidlin it does not rise until the meal that has been bought at a certain price has been finished. Mr. Sutherland has told me that a quantity of meal bought in by Mr. Robertson at a certain price remained at the same price until the last of it was sold, and the same with the next parcel.

14,971. When you have pass-books at Voe, is the price generally entered in the pass-book at the time when you get the meal?-No; it is not entered until [Page 377] settlement, when it is compared with their book, as my pass-book will show. There are several quantities of meal in it for which no price is entered.

14,972. Is it entered at settlement at one price for the whole season, or at different prices?-I cannot tell. If what they say is true, it is entered at the highest market price if the market has risen, because they say it rises in their book as well as in their cellar.

14,973. You have produced several pass-books to me. Is that [showing] a pass-book of your father's in account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes.

14,974. Have you carried through some of the transactions for your father at Mr. Adie's shop?-Yes.

14,975. I see here an entry on April 21, 1868, '24 lbs. meal at 5s. 3d.:' who made that entry?-It was made at the shop, not by me.

14,976. Here [showing] is another entry, 'April 25, one lispund Indian meal, 5s. 6d.:' who made that?-My father perhaps made some entries in the book himself when he got things, and when the pass-book was not sent to the shop.

14,977. Was that entry made by your father?-The entry of 24 lbs. meal at 5s. 3d. is not by my father. I think the other is by him.

14,978. There is another entry, June 30, of 'Indian meal, 2s.:' who made that entry?-It is not in my father's writing. It has been made at Voe.

14,979. There is another entry, 'July 1, one boll Indian meal, 16s. 6d.:' who made that?-It is my father's.

14,980. There is another, 'Dec. 6, Indian meal, 1/2 lisp. 2s.?'-Yes.

14,981. That account has been settled in January 1869, you having given 21 yards cloth at 3s. 6d.?-Yes.

14,982. Have you any doubt that all the things entered in that account were got by your father?-No. They were all got and settled for.

14,983. The next account was settled on March 17, 1870: have you any doubt that all the things entered before that date were got by your father at Voe?-No, they were all received.

14,984. On November 25 he got 1/4 gallon oil at 6d.: would that be sillock oil?-Perhaps it was.

14,985. In that settlement your father is credited with 26 yards cloth, which comes to £3, 13s. 8d. There is something else that comes to 1s., being £3, 14s. 8d. due to him, and £2, 19s. 4d. to Mr. Adie, leaving a balance in your father's favour of 15s. 4d.?-Yes.

14,986. Mr. Adie takes a discount for cash of 1s. 6d.: does that mean that he charged 1s. 6d. of discount on the 15s. 4d. which he was to pay to your father?-Yes.

14,987. Why was that?-I don't know; but it was a common thing, that when he gave cash he gave so much less for the cloth.

14,988. Was it the rule that all cloth was to be settled with by goods?-The price was 5 per cent. less if paid in cash.

14,989. But was it the rule that all the cloth was to be paid for by goods?-No. They just had to take the goods for convenience; but the wool was my father's, and I could go to whom he pleased with it.

14,990. The account for 1870 in the book is still unsettled?-It has been settled lately, and my father's account is now in another book.

14,991. Do you think the things that are marked in that book were got at the prices which are entered there?-Yes, so far as I know, they were. There was no dispute with my father, either about price or anything else.

14,992. We will go to your own books. Is this [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Adie at Voe from 1869 downwards?-Yes.

14,993. Were all the articles entered there got by you at the prices which are there marked?-Yes.

14,994. I see that in June and July 1869 there is some meal and flour entered in quantities, without any price being marked?-Yes.

14,995. How did that happen?-They know best themselves why they did not enter the prices. I cannot explain it.

14,996. I show you an entry of one quarter boll Indian meal: is that in Mr. Adie's handwriting?-I don't know; it will be in the writing of some of Adie's men. All the entries in that book were written in the shop.

14,997. Has that account been settled?-Not yet.

14,998. Is that the reason why the price has not been put in?-No, I should not say that was the reason.

14,999. Is this [showing] a continuation of the other account?- Yes.

15,000. Have you got all the articles that are marked in this book?-Yes.

15,001. Did you get all the articles entered there at the prices which are marked?-Yes, I got them at the prices marked when there is any price; but there is a sack of pease-meal entered without any price to it.

15,002. I see an entry on May 30, 'To dog licence, 5s.; by cash, 2s. 6d.:-2s. 6d.:' what does that mean?-I had 2s. 6d. that I paid as part of the dog licence, and Mr. Adie charged me with the rest.

15,003. Did you pay that licence through Mr. Adie?-Yes.

15,004. Does he transact all your business for you in that way?- Yes.

15,005. Does he pay your accounts for you?-No; he never pays any accounts for me, that I know of.

15,006. Did he only pay your dog licence for you?-He only paid one half of it. He might have paid the whole if I had asked him to do it.

15,007. The following are some of the entries in your book:-

1869. May 18. 24 Ind. ml., 0 3 0 16 o. meal, 0 3 0 29. 35 o. meal, 0 4 3 June 14. 1/4 boll In. meal. July 8. 35 sec. paring flour. 30. 35 overhd. flour. Oct. 23. 1/4 gall. oil, 9d. Dec. 10. 16 lbs. flour, 2s.

Was the oil mentioned in the entry of October 23, oil which you required for burning?-Yes; and I could have got it at the same time at Mr. Robertson's for not above 2s. per gallon.

15,008. In the continuation of that book there are the following entries:-'1871. May 31: 35 Ind. meal; 35 Shetland groats:' did you get these articles?-Yes.

15,009. Have you had any price fixed for them yet?-No; but I knew the price current at the time.

15,010. There is also in the same book an entry under date June 2, '1/2 boll overhead flour,' and 1s. 3d. is marked in small figures above the entry: what does that mean?-I don't know. It was there when I got the book home, but what it meant I could not say.

15,011. There are other two entries under date June 16, of '35 Indian meal, and 35 flour,' with the small figures 1s. and 1s. 3d. respectively written above them in the same way?-These figures may mean the price of the meal and flour per peck at that time.

15,012. There are also the following entries in the book:-'June 26, 35 flour, 5s.; July 5, 35 flour, 5s; and July 13, 28 Shetland meal, 3s. 91/2d.:' have you any doubt that all these entries which have been read are entries of articles which you got at the times stated from Mr. Adie at Voe, and that they were charged at the prices marked in the pass-book?-I have no doubt the entries are quite correct as to that.

15,013. You have also produced to me a pass-book kept by you with Mr. Robert Sutherland at Vidlin, in which I find the following entries. 'Nov. 11, 1869: 16 lb. oatmeal, 2s. 6d. Feb. 11, 1870: 16 lb. oatmeal, 2s. 3d.:' have you any doubt that these articles were got and charged at the prices stated?-I have no doubt of that, and that these were the regular prices they were being sold at.

15,014. Is there anything else in these books to which you wish to direct my attention?-There [showing] is an entry in the book with Mr. Adie, September 26, sack pease-meal, and there is no price stated.

[Page 378]

15,015. But there is no price fixed of fifty things in the book?- No; that is what I say.

15,016. Did you not ask to have the price of that pease-meal fixed at the time?-No.

Lerwick, January 29, 1872, CHARLES ROBERTSON, examined.

15,017. Your firm of R. & C. Robertson have an extensive trade in provisions in Lerwick?-Yes; we do fair business, both wholesale and retail.

15,018. Is it generally one kind of meal that is kept by each merchant for ordinary retail purposes?-So far as I know, it is.

15,019. Do you generally have only one quality of oatmeal in stock at a time?-Yes.

15,020. Is it the same with Indian meal?-We have not been in the habit of selling Indian meal.

15,021. Can you tell me the price of oatmeal on 21st April 1868?-It was 26s. 6d. per boll of 140 lbs. is the credit price; for cash it would be 6d. less.

15,022. How much would that be for 24 lbs.?-About 4s. 6d., or about 1s. 7d. per peck.

15,023. Would is 7d. per peck be your selling price at that time?- Yes.

15,024. Would 1s. 9d. per peck have been a high price for it in Lerwick then?-It would have been much higher than we would get for it.

15,025. Would you be surprised to find that at that date it was selling in the country districts at is. 9d.?-I would.

15,026. Was the price in a fluctuating condition about that time?- I see that a month later it was 1s. less, and two months later it was 2s. less per boll. The market was falling in April.

15,027. Did it continue to fall during the rest of the year?-I see that a month later than the last quotation I have given it was just about the same price.

15,028. Was there a good harvest in 1868?-No; but the crop here does not affect the market price.

15,029. But was there a good harvest that year over Scotland and England?-I don't remember just now. I see that in August 1868 the price was up 6d. per boll.

15,030. Was the price as high as 1s. 9d. per peck in January 1869?-It was not. I see on 26th January we have it charged at 23s. per boll, which would be about 1s. 6d. less per boll than it was in July, and 3s. 6d. less than it was in April 1868.

15,031. Therefore you would say that in January 1869 meal was considerably cheaper than it had been in April of the previous year?-Yes.

15,032. What was the price of oatmeal on February 11, 1870?-I don't have the price on the 11th; but on 5th February it was 17s. 3d., and on the 15th 17s., or about 1s. per peck.

15,033. Have you any means of telling me the price of Indian meal, although you do not sell it?-I have bought two or three bolls of it within the last year or two, and I have paid somewhere about 13s. or 14s. per boll for it. That would be somewhere about 9d. per peck, or rather 10d., because in weighing out there is generally about half a peck of loss per boll, and allowance must be made for that.

15,034. Then 1s. per peck would be rather a high price for it by retail?-Yes, it would be high enough.

15,035. I suppose the qualities of flour that you sell in your trade are more various than the qualities of meal?-Yes, we have several qualities.

15,036. What would be the price of your best flour on October 6, 1869?-I see the finest quality of flour would be about 14d. per peck. The next quality below that was 16s. per boll, which would retail at 1s. per peck; that is overhead flour, what we call fine.

15,037. On 2d June 1871 what would be the price of overhead flour?-It was 16s. 6d. per boll on 30th May, which would retail at 1s. per peck. There are two qualities of overhead flour, fine and common.

15,038. At that date would 1s. 3d. per peck have been a high price for overhead flour of any quality?-Yes, it would have been a top price. 1s. per peck was the price of the common kind; but there is only a difference in price of about 2s. per boll between common and fine.

15,039. Therefore, even for the fine quality, 1s. 3d. would be it very high price?-Yes.

15,040. What were the average prices of oatmeal in 1870?-

In Jan. about 17s. 9d. In April, about 17s. 6d. " Feb. " 17s. 3d. " May, " 18s. 9d. " March, " 17s. 6d. " June " 19s. 0d.

Up to the middle of July it was 19s. 6d., and then it took it start in the beginning of the French War up to 22s. In a week it was down 1s., to 21s., at which it continued during the first three weeks of August, and the last week 19s. 6d. September, 19s. The first week of October, 19s.; second week, and to the end of the month, 18s. 6d. November, 19s. December, about 19s. 3d. In 1871 the prices, taking them about the middle of each month, were-

s. d. s. d. January, 19 6 July, 21 6 February, 20 0 August, 21 0. March, 20 6 September, 21 0 April, 21 0 October, 20 0 May, 21 6 November, 19 0 June, 21 6 December. 19 6

In January 1872, 19s. cash, or 19s. 6d. credit. The prices I have given are all credit prices. If the cash was paid for meal at any of these times, it was always 6d. per boll less.

15,041. How do you proceed when you sell by the peck?-We always allow half a peck or a peck per sack for weighing out, and that comes to about 1/2d. a peck.

15,042. So that, when meal is 19s. 6d., as at present, it is 131/2d. per peck?-Yes, either cash or credit. We would not make any difference on the peck.

15,043. What was the price of flour at June 26, 1871?-Common overhead flour about that date in June was 16s. per boll, and the best overhead would have been 18s. or 18s. 6d. There is another quality of fine flour, the finest quality we keep, which would have been about 22s. per boll, or 5s. 6d. per quarter.

15,044. Was the price the same about 5th July following?-About the same. There has been little or no alteration on the price of that flour almost the whole season.

15,045. If you saw an entry of flour at 5s. in a passbook, and another of overhead flour at 1s. 3d. in the same book within the course of a month, would you think it probable they were the same article,-the quantity not being mentioned?-Yes. 5s. would be the price of a lispund, or four pecks and 1s. 3d. of peck.

15,046. Shetland meal, I suppose, is an article that you hardly ever have in the market?-We seldom or never buy it. In fact there is very little of it now to be got.

15,047. Then you cannot give me any information as to the price of it last July?-Not last July, but it always sells considerably below the price of south-country meal.

[Page 379]

LERWICK, TUESDAY, JANUARY 30, 1872.

-MR GUTHRIE.

ANDREW JOHN GRIERSON, examined.

15,048. Are you the proprietor of the estate of Quendale?-I am.

15,049. Are you also engaged in the fish-curing business?-I am. I have been so for 11 years.

15,050. Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson is your shopkeeper at Quendale, and keeps a shop there for the supply of your neighbours and fishermen?-Yes, for the supply of my fishermen primarily, and for any one else who chooses to go to it.

15,051. The returns you have made to me show the amount of dealing which these fishermen have had in accounts at your shop, and also other particulars of your business?-They do. They have been made up from my ledger for the two years which have been selected.

15,052. Were these favourable years for the fishing, or otherwise?-1871 was an exceedingly favourable year. I should say that 1867 was not more than a medium year. The price was miserable, but I had a great quantity of fish. Both the fishing and the price were good in 1871.

15,053. How do you arrange with your men about boats? Do the boats belong to themselves, or are they hired out?-I have no boats. They are debited to the men.

15,054. How long does it generally take for a man to pay up the price of his boat?-I have had no experience of these six-oared boats, such as I have been furnishing lately, because the fishing was entirely of saith until now.

15,055. Have you introduced larger boats lately?-Yes. I have got the men encouraged to take them within the last three years; and I have only supplied the large new boats within the past season.

15,056. About what number of tenants have you upon your estate?-I can tell by referring to the copy of my valuation return for the last year; but only one half, the smaller half, of my property is in Dunrossness. There are 48 tenants on Quendale and Brough, in Dunrossness.

15,057. Does that include the large farm there?-No; I am not including myself. I am holding my own farm, and I have counted it out. I have also counted out the Free Church minister, who holds a house from me.

15,058. Are these 48 tenants all men who might fish?-Yes; they don't all fish to me, but they might fish.

15,059. You have also a number of tenants in Sandsting?-Yes; I have 108 there.

15,060. Are the tenants in Sandsting at liberty to fish for any one they please?-They are at liberty to do anything under the sun, if they only pay me my rent. They are under no obligation whatever.

15,061. It is said that there is an obligation on the tenants on Quendale to deliver their fish to you. Is that so?-It is. That is a condition upon which they sit upon the ground.

15,062. Have you found them generally willing to agree to that condition?-They have agreed to it without the slightest difficulty. I am the third generation of the name for whom they have fished. They never sat upon the property on any other condition since it was purchased by us about 1765.

15,063. Do you consider that condition to be beneficial to the landlord and the tenants?-I do. I am satisfied that it is beneficial for the tenants when the landlord will take the trouble; but it is a very great deal of trouble.

15,064. Does it not depend entirely upon the landlord's efficiency as a man of business, whether the condition is a beneficial one for the tenants or not?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce, junior, Mr. Urnphray, and I are the only proprietors in the country who carry on the fishing to any extent.

15,065. Do you think it would be necessary to increase the rents of the tenants if they were not under that obligation to fish for you?- I certainly should increase their rents in Dunrossness if they were not under that obligation.

15,066. You are aware that a great deal has been said about that kind of obligation, and that some of your tenants and many of Mr. Bruce's have come forward and complained loudly about it?-I know that. I understand the complaint of a great part of Mr. Bruce's tenants has turned very much upon the question whether they should be allowed to dry their fish for themselves.

15,067. To some extent it has; but they also wish to be able to sell their fish as they please, whether they dry them or not. Still it is the case that a good many of them have spoken very strongly in favour of being allowed to cure their fish for themselves?-I would not carry on the fishing upon that condition at all.

15,068. Would you not buy the fish if they had been cured by the men?-No. I would not undertake to do that on any consideration, because you would just be swindled, and you could not help yourself in buying the dry fish. The men are not able to cure their fish and be ready to commence the next season's fishing. They could not come to me or to any other person at the end of the year, and say in an independent manner, 'Will you buy my fish?' because, in the first place, they must come to me or to some other person and ask, 'Will you be pleased to supply us with salt and, meal, and so on, and we will dry our fish and deliver them to you?' If we agreed to do so, the men commence, it may be from February, and we supply them with salt, lines, meal, and everything they require, and that goes on until the end of the fishing in August, when we must take their fish, but the fish are mortgaged already. Then, if we go to look at the fish, we find they have been salted with the least possible amount of salt, and they are just a parcel of rubbish; but we have paid for them already by the advances we have made, and we must take them and make the best or the worst of them. Besides, in the case of an unprincipled man, he has got the thing in his own hands, because he is aware that he has already pledged all his fish to you. They are still his property, however; but while the fish are undelivered, it is very easy for him to slip some of them on board one of the packets running to Lerwick, and sell them to any person for cash down. I am not a lawyer sufficient to know whether that would be a case of theft or not; but when the wet fish are weighed to me out of the boat, it is my own fault if I don't cure them so as to be fit for the market; and if any fellow steals any of my fish, then it would be a case of theft. I have seen the results of such a system on a neighbouring property, because Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh's property has only been under his son's management for eleven years. Before then his tenants were at liberty to go anywhere they liked, and they were drowned over head and ears in debt, both to their landlord and to their fish-curers.

15,069. Do you think the indebtedness of the fishermen is reduced when the landlord takes the fishing into his own hands?-I do think so; when they are dealt with in the same manner that is followed at Dunrossness now.

15,070. But you are speaking now of the previous state of indebtedness, not from personal knowledge of [Page 380] your own tenantry, but from what you know of Mr. Bruce's?- I was as well acquainted with them as if they were my own tenantry. I was living at my own place then; and when young Mr. Bruce and I went into partnership together, and endeavoured to secure the tenants from some of the merchants in Lerwick, it was part of our business to ascertain the exact amount of debts upon the south part of the Sumburgh property.

15,071. Are you prepared to say that the amount of debt due by the fishermen on that property was greater then than it is now?-I am not prepared to say anything more than what Mr. Bruce told me about the year 1866 or 1867. 1866 was the last of a series of years when there were very few of them in debt. Mr. Bruce and I were talking over the matter, and I was bragging about how small the debt was in my case, and he told me then that the debt was very much reduced; and I believe that now they are due nothing to any person except himself.

15,072. Can you give an idea as to the amount of debt that was due at the date you speak of? Do you think it would amount to the whole value of the stock on each man's farm in one half the cases?-No; nothing like that. A man's stock mounts up to a large amount of money when it comes to be turned into cash. I would not speak to precise figures; but my impression at present is, that the debt at that time might amount to about three rents, or something like £1200. There might be three rents in arrear of the rental.

15,073. Have you had any experience that enables you to compare your own property, at a time when it was not in your hands for fishing purposes with what it is now?-No. It has never been out of the hands of my family since the time I mentioned.

15,074. I believe it is not a common practice to raise rents in Shetland?-No; there has really been very little done in that way.

15,075. Has that something to do with the system of fishing for and obtaining supplies from the landlord?-I don't think it has been so much that, as the fact that the landlords are resident in the place, and there is a sort of moral pressure brought to bear upon a person who is living in the neighbourhood. You don't like to make yourself odious among the neighbours round about you. I think that has had more to do with it than anything else. It is not the same sort of thing as if a factor was raising the rent for a man living at a distance. On the Annsbrae estate the proprietors had not had the fishing for a long time, but I believe there was not a rise of rent there for two generations, until Mr. Walker commenced to deal with the property a few years ago. The land there was very cheap. I think the land is not over-rented, and there has been very little change upon it in that way until lately.

15,076. I understand the proprietors interested in fishing invariably make advances to their tenants, in the form of meal and goods?- They must do so.

15,077. That, I suppose, arises from a want of ready money among the tenantry themselves?-Yes. Those who have not ready money must have these advances. There are some people who do not require them.

15,078. Don't you think their number would be increased if by a ready-money system they were encouraged to save money and to acquire habits of frugality?-I don't think so. My experience, from the beginning of the business, so far as I have had to do with it, has been, that under the present system a prudent man who chooses to exercise self-denial could pass out of all possible control, either of landlord or fish-curer, to do him any injury. He could, if he chose, draw his money and send it where he liked; and I have had numbers of men who have not dealt to the extent of £1 in the year with me since I began business. They just took their money at the end of the year, and supplied themselves where they chose.

15,079. Does it not seem to you that the improvident have undue facilities for obtaining credit when they get supplies for the fishing from the landlord, who has an inducement to carry them on in the knowledge that they have to fish for him?-That has not been my practice. I don't like to make any bad debts, and in two cases I have turned a man about his business because I could not keep him out of debt. The most profitable fisherman is the man who pays his way, and not the man who takes goods out of the shop.

15,080. But in order to get your boats manned, I fancy you are obliged to make these supplies?-Yes, we must make advances.

15,081. Do you think the system of paying a man cash down for his fish, or at shorter intervals than an annual settlement, could be carried out?-I cannot see how it would work; and besides, I think if such a plan were introduced, the people would just revert to the present system. I am perfectly satisfied that, if you were to pass a law requiring the men to be paid in cash down, the result would be that we would have a meeting, and we would agree to pay so much per cwt., and the fishermen would say, 'We know you, and we will trust to you paying us that price at the end of the season.' That would be the case with the greater number of curers, such as Hay & Co., Mr. Garriock, and myself. The price would be fixed at a particular time but the men would take our word for it that they were to be paid at the end of the season. We would have to pay them a nominal price at short intervals in order to satisfy the law, but they would expect to be paid a higher price at the end of the season, if it turned out that we realized a higher price for our fish. That would be a binding arrangement, on the one side at least.

15,082. But that would not be a very fair bargain?-It would just be the bargain that we are constantly forced to make with the fishermen, because they always expect the curers to be fast on one side, but not on the other. For instance, if they sign an agreement to go to the Faroe fishing from March to August, and it comes a bad year, they don't get so many fish as makes the voyage a profitable one for them, and they say they will rather go to prison than go to the fishing another year, unless you put them upon wages. In the meantime you have made advances to them, and you must give them the chance of that. I know that Messrs. Hay and others have engaged fishermen for that fishing at a settled price, but when the end of the season came the fish had been sold so well that other curers were paying a high rate, and they have just had to put the bargain in the fire, and pay according to the higher price, or lose the services of the men.

15,083. Could not an arrangement of this kind be carried out, that a price should be fixed to be paid weekly, or fortnightly, or monthly, on the delivery of the fish, according as the case may be, and that the fishermen should be entitled, as in the whale fishing, to an additional payment, similar to oil-money, at the end of the season?-Yes, they might be paid at such a rate as the curer could afford, in the same way as is done now; but that would come practically to the same thing as the present system.

15,084. Would it not be a system of paying weekly wages, with an additional payment in proportion to the produce?-It would not be wages: it would be a weekly payment for produce, because weekly wages would never do.

15,085. Would it not virtually be wages, with a bonus on the amount of the produce besides?-I suppose it would; but wages are a different thing from paying a man for what he delivers to you. If you pay a man wages, he may turn lazy and do nothing, and you cannot be looking after him when he is at the fishing.

15,086. But this would be a payment of wages, and something more. He would have an inducement to work in order to increase the total produce at the end of the season?-That might be so; but I have thought over the subject, and I see no other way in which the system can be worked than it is at present. The law will be complied with nominally, but matters would fall back into their old state.

15,087. But if the law only required a certain proportion to be paid at short intervals, could it not be complied with, not only nominally, but substantially, in that way, and still recognise such an arrangement as [Page 381] you consider would be necessary?- It might be, but it would be a very disagreeable and a very difficult thing to carry out. It would be hardly possible to arrange the price that, was to be paid for the fish during the course of the season.

15,088. Would the price not always be very considerably below what the fish were expected to realize?-Supposing the price in a number of years had been, on an average, 7s. or 8s. per cwt. for ling, probably both curers and fishermen might agree to fix 5s. 6d. as the rate at which the men were to be paid in the course of the season, reserving to them a further payment, according as the fishing turned out?-Yes, it might be managed in that way quite well; but then what would the people do before they got any fish ashore at all? How would they be able to live then?

15,089. I suppose the object of the Legislature would be to teach them to lay by something on which they might be able to live when they were not actually at the fishing?-That might be the object, but the people might die in the teaching. It is all very well to come down and see the country in a year like this, when money has been flush; but if you had seen such a year as 1868 or 1869 or 1870, when the people were coming to you in January starving, and wanting you to advance them meal and other things, and a big debt standing against them at the same time in the merchant's books, you would have seen that it was not such a matter of plain sailing then.

15,090. Don't you think that even at that season the fishing might have been prosecuted to some extent?-No; there was nothing to catch. Besides, a good crop makes a great difference in Shetland. I don't think I bought thirty bolls of meal in the south country last year, but I was buying 300 or 400 for the same number of men in those years. Still, although the men are in such distress in bad years, I think you ought to know what an amount of money some of the fishermen have lying in the Union Bank, on deposit receipt. You would find then that they are not so poor as they have been represented.

15,091. Do you think most of the deposits in the banks here under £100 belong to fishermen?-I think so.

15,092. Do you also think that a number of the deposits above that sum belong to people of the same class?-I am satisfied of that.

15,093. In short, you think that almost all the deposits in the banks here must be those of fishermen?-I think most part of them are those of fishermen, crofters, and small tenants throughout the country; because I think that any person who had accumulated more than that sum would be likely to invest it in some more remunerative way than to leave it on deposit receipt in the bank. When people have been told in the public prints that a Shetlander nearly loses his head when he sees a £1 note, it is very important that there should be some inquiry on that subject.

15,094. Do you think that men who are indebted to you, for instance, or to any other person engaged in business, and getting advances in the course of the year, are likely to have deposits in the bank?-I don't think that. I could tell over the names of the men upon my property who I suppose have deposits; but I am perfectly satisfied that none of those who are indebted to me have any deposits at all.

15,095. It has been alleged that a fisherman might get advances from the merchant who employs him, although he had a deposit receipt in the bank, especially in a distant place, where it would cost some trouble to him to go to his bank and get his deposit receipt altered. Do you think he would do so if he only wanted a small sum?-I believe that to a certain extent he would. I believe that he might take advances from his landlord's shop during the season, although he had a deposit receipt, if he saw that he could get the things as moderate upon credit from his landlord as he could elsewhere, paying for them at the end of the year. That is sometimes done when the men want a boat. There are tenants of mine without means of their own, who have come to me and said they wanted a new boat. I would ask them who was to pay for it, and they would tell me that some of the men to whom the boat was to belong were not able to pay for then, although others might be able to pay their share; and it was better for the whole of them to pay their shares at the end of the season, because the men who had the money would have got no advantage by paying it at the time.

15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10 note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year. But he would never think of having a permanent running balance with me if he had money of his own in bank.

15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit some of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-Yes, I believe they do that for a single year. They would be great fools if they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with the shop, and they would be no better off if they were to pay for their goods in money.

15,098. Would they not be better off if they could get their goods cheaper for cash?-I don't know that they could do that. I cannot get the things any cheaper from the Lerwick dealers for cash. I pay my accounts here every six weeks, and get only 2s. 6d. or so off £4 or £5.

15,099. But are not the prices in Lerwick lower than they are in your quarter?-I don't think so. I think I am selling as low as they do in Lerwick, and sometimes even lower. Mr. Gavin Henderson's shop is near ours, and he acts as a powerful pressure upon us.

15,100. Do you sometimes exact liberty money?-I have exacted liberty money two or three times from landholders. I don't take it from young men-only from landholders. Three guineas is what I fixed it at, but I asked a pound only for the last man who fished off the property. His name was James Shewan; and I told him this year that he could fish for nothing, because I wanted his land to put a few sheep on. He is going to fish for nothing this year, and he is to leave at Martinmas.

15,101. That is to say, he is to fish to any party for nothing?-He can fish to any person he likes. I believe in the evidence which has been given, mention was made of a lad Thomas Johnston not getting liberty to go home to his father's house because he was fishing for another curer. The understanding I have with the tenants is, that I expect them all, both young men and old, to fish for me, on condition that I pay them as well as any other person; and I want to put as much pressure as I consider reasonable upon them for that purpose. But young men are not to be bound always to fish at the home fishing, and sometimes there may not be a way suitable for them; and I have told them all in such a case that they could go to Faroe or to Greenland, or go out of the parish into the next parish, and prosecute the fishing there. This lad Johnston, who was the son of a man considerably indebted to me, went down to the other side and fished to Messrs. Hay & Co., and I daresay I did come pretty hard down upon the father for allowing his son to go away. The result was, that the lad spent his winter about a mile and a half or two miles from his father's house in service there, but he has been back since then. On other occasions two or three young men have left the parish when they could not get a convenient boat in it, and gone to Dunrossness to the fishing, and I have never said anything to them about it. There is one lad who is to fish for Mr. Bruce in a boat's crew of his in the incoming season, and I have made no objection to it.

15,102. There was another case mentioned in the previous evidence also-that of a man named Williamson, at Berlin. It was said his son was engaged to a neighbouring crofter as a servant, and that he had been obliged to leave that and come to your employment as beach boy for a lower wage?-I cannot tell anything [Page 382] about that; but, as a rule, I expect the boys to serve me at the beach on the usual terms. I always make a point of informing them in plenty of time, perhaps about August, that I will require so and so the following year, so that they may not make any other engagement. If such a thing took place with Williamson's son, I never heard of it. I had a boy named Williamson in my employment at the beach last season, and I suppose he was a son of old James Williamson's, but I knew nothing about him having been previously engaged to another service. With regard to liberty money, I may say that in 1867 Charles Eunson paid me over £3 or three guineas; and John Flawes. I think they fished to me in the following year.

15,103. One complaint made by the men with regard to the price paid to them for their fish, was that some neighbouring curers at Sandwick, Thomas Tulloch and James Smith, paid 9d. per cwt. more for ling, and also an additional price for other fish above what is called the current price: can you explain how that arises?- I can explain how the current price, according to which we pay, is fixed, but I don't understand how Tulloch and Smith can pay the price they do. If you can investigate that and let us see it in the blue-book, we will perhaps get a wrinkle out of it; but we cannot understand it in the meantime. What I promise to my fishermen, and what I promise any stray boats that come to me-and I have three or four boats fishing to me just now from Simbister property-is, that whatever Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. John Bruce, Mr. John Robertson, and Mr. Mullay pay, will be paid by me also. Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Smith are no guide to me with regard to the price which I am to pay; and I tell the men they must go to them if they want their price.

15,104. Can you account for their higher prices by the fact that they sell, not to wholesale dealers as the larger merchants do, but to retail purchasers, and thus get both the retail and the wholesale profit?-That may account for it. I know that Tulloch's boat is coming up to Lerwick every week during the summer with casks of fish for retail dealers. Of course, when I am shipping 100 tons, I must allow a middle-man to take them, and he must have his profit; but I have nothing to do with how Tulloch manages his business.

15,105. Do communications pass between you and the other fish-curers as to the price of fish before you settle with your fishermen?-The fact is, that I have always found it the most difficult thing possible to make out what price they were going to pay. One curer may get a sort of a pull over another if he pays 6d. or so above the market price but that leads to very disagreeable feelings. I have asked Hay & Co. repeatedly what price they were to pay, and they have given me no answer; and I have actually found the current price by taking care to be about the last who sold, and seeing what my neighbours had got before me. At the present time I have squared up my books at a certain price; but Mr John Bruce has not settled yet, and if he pays 2d. or 3d. above me I shall have to turn my books over again and pay that additional. I have always been the second last in settling, just in order that I might see what my neighbours were to pay. One year I settled before Hay & Co.'s people, and they paid 2d. a gallon on the livers above me. I paid that up on the next year's livers, and lost a £10 note on the transaction.

15,106. Do you find the fishermen a difficult people to deal with?-Exceedingly.

15,107. Do they make many inquiries as to the prices at which you have sold the fish, or ask to see your accounts?-No. They begin to understand about the end of the season what the price is to be which they are to get. As a general rule we tell them that they will get what other people are getting, and they will hear in time enough; but they never think of asking what I am getting for the fish myself. The Faroe fishers are the only people who would be disposed to be troublesome in that way, because they are entitled to one half of the proceeds of the fishing.

15,108. Have you anything to do with the Faroe fishing?-I have one vessel there; but I don't supply the men with goods. Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask have been the agents for that; and I merely interpone my security, and pay cash for the goods, without a penny of profit upon them.

15,109. Do you give security to Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask for the advances which they make to your fishermen?-Yes; they are debited to me.

15,110. Are the fishermen aware that such security is given and that they can get advances at these shops?-Yes. Of course I speak to one of Mr. Leask's men, and tell him that they are not to advance the men beyond a certain amount, for fear of them going over the line.

15,111. Do you get no commission upon their transactions at these shops?-Not one farthing.

15,112. Do the fishermen in the Faroe trade require any exhibition of the bills of sale?-I do not know. I never was asked to exhibit my bills of sale; but they know exactly what the prices are. There are people going back and forward to Leith who know exactly what we get.

15,113. Are the fish sold by public sale in Leith?-No.

15,114. Are they sold by commission agents there?-We have often to sell them direct. It is a miserable thing to put them into a commission agent's hands. We try to make the best bargain we can with the middle-men from Glasgow or Belfast.

15,115. Is there a traveller who comes round and purchases the fish in Shetland?-They very often come round for that purpose.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM SIEVWRIGHT, examined.

15,116. You are a solicitor in Lerwick?-I am.

15,117. Do you act as factor on the property of Mrs. Budge, Seafield?-Yes; I have been so for about two years, or something like that.

15,118. [Shown letter from witness to William Stewart, Kirkabister, dated 22d November 1870, quoted in Stewart's evidence, question 8917]-Did you write that letter?-Yes.

15,119. Have you anything to say with regard to it?-All I have to say is, that the Thomas Williamson mentioned in the letter had been carrying on a small business at Seafield, and the tenants had taken a prejudice against him, and did not wish to do any business with him; the result of which was that he had resolved, or pretty well resolved, to leave the place, and the business premises were likely to be shut up in consequence. Before writing the letter, I had seen several of the tenants there, and particularly William Stewart, who was a leading man among them, and had endeavoured to overcome that prejudice. I told them that Mrs. Budge expected that they would, in her interest, fish to the tenant of the business premises upon equal terms-that is to say, if they could arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with any other body, but not otherwise. They seemed to acquiesce in that, or at any rate did not take any objection to it after I had explained the matter to them; and I believe they have been thoroughly satisfied with their transactions. I may explain further, that most of these tenants, or at least many of them, were in debt, some of them to a large extent, for land rent; and I thought it only reasonable that if they could assist the proprietor, they should do so. There was no compulsion, in the proper sense of the word. The tenants understood quite well that it was merely if they could make a bargain as favourable with Williamson as with any other body that they were to do that.

15,120. Did Williamson become responsible to the proprietor for the rent?-No.

15,121. Has it been paid through him?-I don't think so. Perhaps a few of the tenants have paid it through [Page 383] him, but he certainly was not responsible for it in any way. At any rate, I did not make him bound.

15,122. Do the tenants ever pay their rents directly to you?-Yes. Occasionally they hand them in to Mrs. Budge, who sends the money to me; but the settlements are all made by me.

15,123. How many tenants are there on that property?-I think altogether there are 25 or 26.

15,124. Have they any leases?-No; they are just yearly tenants. The proprietor was very anxious to give them leases, but she is only a liferenter herself, and she cannot give them the warrandice they should have.

15,125. How many of these tenants are fishermen?-I think there should be perhaps 15 or 16 of them, but I cannot be positive as to that. I believe Williamson has two boats manned from among them.

15,126. Has he also a shop?-Yes, a small shop.

15,127. And I suppose the trade of the shop depends on his securing a certain number of fishermen for his boats?-Yes, and on the good-will of the tenants there.

15,128. But if the tenants are in debt, are they not virtually obliged to deal at his shop?-I don't think so.

15,129. Do you think it probable that they could get credit anywhere else?-I certainly think so; and I think Williamson himself is in a position to go a great way in giving them credit.

15,130. Are you aware that Williamson commenced business with a very small capital?-I don't think he could have had much means; but I believe he has paid his fishermen in cash this season.

15,131. You mean that he has paid in cash any balances that were due?-I don't know that there were many balances due. I think the fishermen would not deal much with him, and he actually paid for the fish almost wholly in cash. I know that I sent him about £120 for the purpose.

15,132. Then, notwithstanding the obligation to fish that is laid on the tenants, Williamson has not been able to make a good business there?-I don't think he has, because, notwithstanding that the proprietor wished the tenants to deal with him as much as possible, they have not, in point of fact, done so more than they could possibly avoid. He is nearer to them, and they might get some things more conveniently from him than anywhere else. I am anxious to make it appear that I explained thoroughly to them, that if they could not arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with another, they were quite at liberty to do as they chose.

15,133. Is the letter I have shown you the only one that has passed on the subject of fishing with Stewart or any of the tenants on that estate?-The only one; and I have never had any complaints since it was written.

15,134. Have you had any experience in the management of property in other parts of Shetland?-Not a large experience, but I have a pretty good notion of the manner in which it is managed.

15,135. Can you say whether it is common for rents to be paid through the fish-merchant?-I believe it is rather common that the fish-merchant becomes responsible for the rents. The proprietor says to him, 'You have my fishermen, and you must pay their rents,' or something like that.

15,136. Do you know that, in point of fact, it is usual for a fish-curer to draw a cheque in favour of the proprietor for the rents of a large number of the fishermen employed by him?-I have seen it done. There is a small property in Delting that I have managed, where a number of the rents have been paid in that way; but there was no arrangement whatever that the fish-curer should pay the rents: they just came through him. I have got perhaps £50 at a time in that way.

15,137. You are also a bank agent?-Yes.

15,138. Has that practice not come within your knowledge as a bank agent?-I cannot say that it has.

15,139. You have not been long in that position?-Not long. Besides, I could not be sure that cheques presented were for that purpose.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT MULLAY, examined.

15,140. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-Yes, to a small extent.

15,141. Have you any other business?-I have a retail shop here.

15,142. How many boats had you employed in the line-fishing last year?-Seven.

15,143. You have a fishing station at Ireland, in Dunrossness, on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes. I pay rent to him for the beach and booth.

15,144. Is your station the only place in that neighbourhood where fish can be landed and dried?-There is no other place in that bay where fish can be cured; there is no other beach than the one I have.

15,145. Are the tenants on that part of the Simbister estate under any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever.

15,146. Do they, in point of fact, all fish for you?-Yes; all those who fish out of that bay.

15,147. Is that because there is no other beach?-I suppose there is no other cause for it.

15,148. Would it be a misstatement to say that the Simbister tenants in that quarter are obliged, by the terms of their tenure, to fish for you and for Mr. John Robertson, jun.?-Yes. They are not bound, because there are some of them who fish for me in one year, and perhaps they are at the farthest end of Shetland the next, and then they may come back to me again.

15,149. Do you keep a shop at the fishing station?-I keep nothing there except a supply of fishing lines and hooks.

15,150. Do any of the fishermen there get their supplies from your shop in Lerwick?-They get what they want.

15,151. Do they keep an account with you, which is settled at the annual settling time?-Yes; but many of them never get one penny from me except in the shape of cash. There must be an account for them in my books when settling with them, and when the fishing is divided between them and their partners; but many of them have no individual account for out-takes.

15,152. Have you any interest in the Faroe fishing?-None whatever.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, jun., examined.

15,153. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-I am. I have a retail shop here, and a fishing station at Spiggie on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.

15,154. Are the tenants in the neighbourhood of that station under any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever. If such a statement was made to you, it was entirely wrong. I am quite sure the tenants there do not hold their land under any such condition.

15,155. Do many of Mr. Bruce's tenants fish for you, in point of fact?-I think I had ten boats at Spiggie last year-three men in each boat.

15,156. Were these men mostly from Mr. Bruce's lands?-Almost entirely, I should say.

15,157. Was that because these lands are adjacent to your fishing station?-I believe that is the principal reason why they fished for me.

15,158. Might these men have cured their own fish, or fished for any other merchant, if they had chosen?-Yes.

15,159. Was there any local circumstance that prevented them from doing so?-They could not have cured their own fish in that neighbourhood, because the beach was mine. I possessed it and there is no other beach within several miles.

15,160. Therefore the fishermen residing in that particular place, may be bound to a particular fish-curer by the physical character of the country as well as by a legal obligation?-I believe that is so. That is the only way [Page 384] in which I can account for the men fishing at my station.

15,161. You have certain natural advantages at your station?- Yes; and I presume it is the same in many other cases. At the same time, I am willing to believe that if the men had had a choice of stations, they would just as soon have fished for me as for any other person in that neighbourhood. I settled with them at the end of the year, and paid them according to the current price.

15,162. You did not pay them above it?-No.

15,163. I believe there are some merchants in your neighbourhood who pay considerably above the current price?-They are not exactly in my neighbourhood, but there are such merchants within a dozen miles.

15,164. How do you account for them being able to do so?-I am not able to account for the proceedings of these gentlemen; they always appear to me to be inexplicable.

15,165. Could you not afford to pay at the price which they give?-No, not unless I worked for nothing.

15,166. Could you not do it if you were selling to the retail dealers direct?-I don't think I could: that could not be done, as a general rule.

15,167. Do you sell your fish to wholesale merchants?- Generally; I may say always.

15,168. Do you sell them in one lot at the end of the season?- Generally in one lot.

15,169. Do most of the men run accounts with you for supplies during the fishing season?-A few of them do.

15,170. Have you a store there for that purpose?-I have a station there, and during the summer season I keep some fishing materials at it, such as lines and hooks, and things of that sort. These are the only materials I am expected to supply them with.

15,171. Do you not supply them with meal and other stores?-It is expected that I will supply them with them too, if they ask for them; but the men generally in that neighbourhood are very well off, and they can get their supplies from other merchants, and in fact they do so.

15,172. Do many of them run accounts with you in Lerwick for supplies?-The only article I supply them with is meal, and it is principally the poorer men who get it from me; that is, men who are a little behind, and who would not get credit so readily as some of their neighbours.

15,173. Are these accounts for meal settled at the annual settlement in the usual way?-Yes.

15,174. Have you any other fishings, except at Spiggie?-I have a station at Levenwick also. I have not many boats there. I think there were about half a dozen boats fishing for me last season.

15,175. Have you a store there for supplying the fishermen?-I have, during the summer season, for supplying lines and hooks and other fishing materials. I have also a store there for the sale of general goods.

15,176. Is that a permanent store?-It has been permanent for the last twelve months.

15,177. Do the men keep accounts there when they want goods on credit, and settle for them at the end of the season?-Yes; but my instructions to my factor are, to give as little as possible, except fishing materials and some of the absolute necessaries of life, on credit.

15,178. You are the successor to the business of Mr. Robert Mouat?-Yes, and his predecessor too.

15,179. Were you trustee on his sequestrated estate?-No; it was Mr. William Robertson.

15,180. Did Mouat, during the last two years of his tack, call the tenants together and desire them to fish for you?-No. In October or November 1870 he came and told me he was going to give up the fishing, because he had so many other kinds of business, and he could not look after them all quite well; and he said he would give me the run of the store at Levenwick and the beach during the last two years of his tack that remained. I agreed to take it, and came down to the place. He was there at the time, and he invited a number of the men to wait upon him, and told them what he had resolved to do, and recommended that they should fish for me. Some of the men agreed to do so, and others said they preferred having their freedom to do what they liked; and they did so.

15,181. Did many of the fishermen who had been in Mouat's employment continue to fish for you when you took up that station?-I made up about five or six boats last year out of his men,-perhaps twenty men.

15,182. Did you find that these men were in great indebtedness?- I found that there were some of them very poor and ill-off, much worse than I would like to find them.

15,183. Did you take over any part of the stock which Mouat had in his shop there?-Yes, I bought the stuff that remained in his shop at the Moul.

15,184. Did you pay a full price for that?-Yes; it was sold at a valuation, at which he and I were present.

15,185. What was the quality of the stock?-It consisted principally of lines and some drapery goods. The quality of the goods that I bought was very fair. Some of them had been very recently brought in, but others had lain in the shop for a good while. These articles I generally refused to take.

15,186. Had you to take over any meal?-No; there was not an ounce in the shop.

15,187. Were there any articles of food of any kind?-No.

15,188. Then what you took over was entirely soft goods and fishing materials?-Yes.

15,189. Have you any knowledge as to the quality and prices of the provisions which had been sold in his shop?-No; that did not come within my knowledge at all.

15,190. Have you understood from the people in the neighbourhood whom you have since employed, that the quality was very inferior and the price high?-I have heard such complaints.

15,191. I suppose the people express themselves well pleased with the change that has been made?-I heard of nothing else.

15,192. Was that the only transaction you had with Mouat or with the trustee on his estate with regard to the shop business?-Ever since Mouat became tacksman of that property, I have had some dealings with him every year in the purchase of fish and herrings.

15,193. But had you any other transaction with him in connection with him leaving the property and you taking over the fishermen?-No; nothing beyond what I have stated.

15,194. Are you engaged in the herring fishing?-Yes.

15,195. How many vessels have you employed in it?-I would have perhaps twenty boats from Levenwick and Lerwick going to the herring fishing for about six weeks, commencing on 12th August, and ending about the end of September.

15,196. What is the nature of the bargain which you make with the crews of these boats?-It is understood that I am to pay the prices that are generally paid in Shetland for herrings. Prior to 1869 the price I paid to my men was generally regulated by the price paid by Mr. Methuen, fish-curer, Leith, who is the largest fish-curer in Scotland. He, up to that time, had boats from Mr. Bruce of Sand Lodge. Mr. Bruce, once a year, made a bargain with Mr. Methuen, and generally brought him to a very high figure, and my fishermen expected that I was to pay the same price that Mr. Methuen did. They considered that when Mr. Methuen, the greatest fish-curer in Scotland, was able to give certain price to his men, they ought to get the same and that was the price I always paid until three years ago. Since then the herring fishing has been almost a blank; it has been a source of great loss.

15,197. At that time did you become bound to pay them only the current price in Shetland?-There was no bargain made about that. In fact the fishing is so very uncertain, that it is just a matter of circumstances whether we speak about prices or not. Last year, for instance, I had to prepare for about twenty boats fishing, and, I think I did not get thirty crans of herrings altogether.

[Page 385]

15,198. You did not fix a price per cran at the beginning of the season?-No.

15,199. Are the men who are engaged in the herring fishing the same men who fish for ling during the summer months?-Yes.

15,200. Are the boats different?-Frequently they are the same boats.

15,201. Is the settlement made at the same time as the settlement for the ling fishing?-Yes.

15,202. Is there any other point you desire to mention in connection with this inquiry?-No. The whole question seems to be very well ventilated, and I have nothing to add.

15,203. Would you have any objection to a system of weekly or fortnightly payments for the fish that are delivered to you?-I would have no objection to that if it were practicable, but I think there are difficulties in the way which make it practically impossible.

15,204. Would these difficulties not be removed, or greatly reduced, if the weekly or fortnightly payment were only a portion of the price, or a minimum price of say 5s. 6d. per cwt. for ling, leaving the balance of the price of the fish to the end of the season, and to pay it then?-I don't think that system would work very well. It would entail a great amount of trouble and I cannot see how it could be carried out.

15,205. Would there be any trouble, except keeping cash at the stations and handing it to the fishermen at short intervals?-That would be one great source of trouble.

15,206. Would there be any other?-The difficulty of introducing such a system appears to me to be this, that the poor men would not be able to get on in January and February before the fishing begins, unless they obtained advances of some kind from the merchants. If a system of ready-money payments were introduced, the fish being paid for only when they were delivered in the month of June, then the men would have some difficulty in maintaining themselves in the winter and spring.

15,207. No doubt there might be some hardship or difficulty at first, but after one or two seasons do you not think the men would have learned to provide for that part of the season?-There are certain classes of men that I don't see how such a system could work with at all.

15,208. Could these men not find a certain provision in more application to the winter fishing?-There are some localities where the winter fishing is impracticable. The boats cannot be hauled up and down, so that really there are no fish got except in a few days of exceptionally fine weather.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER GARRIOCK, examined.

15,209. Are you a merchant in Lerwick?-I am an agent in Lerwick.

15,210. Do you keep a shop?-No; but I keep fishing materials for my men, and for general sale.

15,211. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, only in the Faroe fishing. I have three vessels employed in it.

15,212. Where are the men employed in these vessels supplied with their materials and fishing supplies?-Their fishing materials are got from me, and I generally appoint them to get their other materials from Hay & Co., or R. & C. Robertson, or Harrison & Sons. There are four or five individuals in Lerwick that I give them their option to get their materials from.

15,213. Do you guarantee these gentlemen for the advances they give to your men?-Yes; at least of late I have had to do it.

15,214. Do you settle with the merchants before settling with the fishermen?-No, not before. The men get their accounts from them, and we retain the amount.

15,215. Do you receive a commission upon the advances made by the merchants?-Occasionally.

15,216. Do you not always do so?-No. Some of them don't agree to give it; there is no arrangement about that.

15,217. Do those who give it get a reference?-They do not. The men have very often to go to them.

15,218. But you give them the option only to go to certain parties whom you name?-Yes. If they begin to deal with one party, they must deal with the same party during the season, because of the difficulty of keeping accounts with the various parties in the town.

15,219. You name a certain number of merchants with whom they must deal?-Yes; and they are generally the most respectable people in Lerwick, where they can get their supplies most moderately. But the men were naming any one themselves with whom they wished to deal, they would have the same option to deal with him, only they must deal with the same individual for the season.

15,220. Would you give a similar guarantee to a merchant whom the men named themselves?-Yes.

15,221. Do you do that in order that the families of the men may be able to live during the fishing season-Yes.

15,222. But it is only in the event of a man requiring these advances that you give such a guarantee, or require them to go to such a shop?-They all require it.

15,223. Are none of them able to live upon their own resources?- Plenty of them; but still they come for their supplies. There was an instance of that occurred with me only eight days past on Saturday. A man who had been in my employment for two or three years had been engaged two or three weeks before to go to the fishing for the rising season, and he came on Saturday and asked for supplies. I asked him where he wished them from, and he said Hay & Co.'s, and I gave him an order to go there. After giving it to him, he came and asked me for some cash. I told him thought it was rather early to come and ask for cash for the rising season, and that he could hardly have spent the money he had got from me at settlement. After a good deal of pressure, he said that about the time he had settled with me he had got some money from his son, and he had added it to the money he had from me, and had put it into the bank, and he did not like to draw it out again. Therefore it is not altogether from necessity that they get these supplies.

15,224. But they all take them as a matter of course?-Yes. There are some men who always get them, and the other men would think they were not so well treated if they did not get them also.

15,225. Then the necessity of making these advances to the men is one of the elements which the merchant must take into account in making his arrangements for the season?-To some extent it must be.

15,226. Is it not an element in fixing the price which the men are to get, that the merchant has to make advances of that description?- Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.

15,227. In the Faroe trade do the men get exactly the same price for their fish which the merchant realizes?-Yes, and something more.

15,228. Why do you give more?-Just because we are obliged to do it. This year I am paying more than I can get. I am bound to pay the currency, as it is called; and if the currency is higher than I realize for the fish, I am still bound to pay it.

15,229. Have you not been able to sell up to the current price this year?-No. I did not accept the price which was offered to me at one time, thinking the fish would be higher, but instead of being higher they fell. I did not sell until after the men were settled with.

15,230. Are you agent or owner of the fishing smack 'Gondola'?- Yes.

15,231 What was the amount of earnings of the men employed in that vessel last season?-The men's earnings in 1871 were about £19 or £20, on an average, for the season.

15,232. Was that the whole proceeds that were paid from the catch of the 'Gondola'?-Yes.

15,233. Was that the sum of which the men received payment after the necessary deductions?-The sum which each man receives varies according to his position [Page 386] in the vessel. The master received £42, 11s. 3d.; the mate received £25, 8s. 10d.; one man received £21, 6s., and the others ran from that to £19, 13s. 6d., if they were there the whole season, according to the amount of their score-money.

15,234. What was the amount credited to each sharesman for the value of his share of the fish?-It varied from £19, 13s. 6d. to about £21, 6s. for an ordinary sharesman. The score-money makes a little difference between one sharesman and another.

15,235. What was the amount of the share apart from the score-money?-It was £14, 4s. 7d. for the Faroe fishing. That was for the period when they were paid by shares; but there was a part of the season when they were paid by wages, when they were upon an Iceland voyage.

15,236. What was the number of the crew?-There were fourteen during the Faroe fishing. Of these, nine were full sharesmen, and the others varied from threequarters to half a share. There were 121/4 shares altogether, and the whole proceeds of the fishing would be divided by that.

15,237. What was the total take of fish?-20 tons 6 cwt. 3 qrs. 21 lbs.

15,238. Was that a fair average fishing for the season?-No, it was rather a poor season. I daresay it was fully an average for last year; but it was a poor fishing, taking other years into account. We would not consider it a paying season.

15,239. Who classes the quality of the fish?-It is generally the merchant. We usually send the first-class fish to Spain, and the other cod go to the home market.

15,240. You charge 52s. 6d. as the cost price for curing. Is that by arrangement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No.

15,241. Is it rounded upon an estimate of the actual expense of curing for the year?-We cannot ascertain every particular with regard to the expense of curing the fish and bringing them into market; but I am certain we are charging under the rate which it actually costs us, including wages, salt, material, and a great many other things that have to be embraced in it. We have often to include coffee and other things supplied to the women at the beach.

15,242. Are the people employed in your curing establishment paid by weekly wages or by fees for the season?-They are not paid in that way at all. Here [showing in book] is the account of a man, Arthur Leask, who employs some women from the mainland. I make a contract with him for the curing of the fish. He generally gives an order to the women, and I pay them what is contained in that order.

15,243. Is that the way in which most of your curing business is managed?-Yes.

15,244. Do you cure at the island of Linga?-Yes. Here [showing] is another account with people who have been curing for me for a number of years. I entered into the contract first with Laurence Thomson; he died and left the farm, and then John Thomson took it, and now Miss Thomson has it.

15,245. Is the work all done in contract with them?-Yes.

15,246. Do they give orders to their employés in the same way as Leask?-I think they manage it themselves, both there and at Linga, with the exception of the washing.

15,247. Do you pay them in cash?-Yes.

15,248. Have you any transactions with the people employed by them?-No.

15,249. Had they an account for goods in any shop?-Not so far as I am aware.

15,250. In what way are the people paid whom Leask sends to you with orders?-They are paid in cash altogether.

15,251. Have you a written agreement with your Faroe fishers?- Yes; I have a separate one for each smack every year.

15,252. Do you stipulate in that agreement what deductions are to be made?-Yes; at least that is done generally. The deductions, including the expenses of curing and bringing the fish to market, and master's and mate's fees, score-money, and cost of bait, are made from the gross proceeds, and then the balance is divided into two-one half going to the men, and the other to the owners.

15,253. Is there not a deduction for commission?-No; that is generally just an understanding.

15,254. What is that understanding?-That a commission is to be charged. In the account I have produced for the 'Gondola' commission and guarantee are charged at 5 per cent.,

15,255. Do the men at settlement see, or desire to see, the bills of sale?-They have never done so in any case.

15,256. Do they sometimes complain that they did not see them, or make any complaints about the price of the fish?-They are always grumbling; but they never made any direct complaint to me on the subject. In order to save a good deal of that trouble, the North Sea Fishing Co. have produced their accounts, but very frequently they have begun to settle with their fishermen at the currency before the accounts were ready.

15,257. Do the company produce their bills of sale to the men?- They are bound to do it if the men call for them.

15,258. Are you connected with that company?-I am a director of it. Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co., is the agent.

15,259. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the fishermen generally see the bills of sale of that company?-I cannot tell. That is a matter which is left in the hands of Mr. Irvine.

15,260. Are the men frequently in debt to you at the commencement of the fishing season?-No. There were some men who left me in debt last year, and they have gone elsewhere,-I don't know where. In fact I would rather get clear of a man who is in debt, and take my chance of getting my debt from him afterwards, than employ him again, unless he was a very good man.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, examined.

15,261. Are you a provision merchant in Lerwick?-I am. I have been in business for eleven years.

15,262. Do you deal in anything else but provisions?-Nothing of any consequence. Sometimes I get a little cottons, or small wares as we call them.

15,263. Do you sometimes purchase soft goods over the counter?-I used to do it; but I have not done so for the last twelve or eighteen months.

15,264. Why did you give it up at that time?-There were several reasons for it. I did not think it was a nice thing to do; and sometimes it was more bother than it was all worth.

15,265. You probably found your other business increasing?-It was not for that reason that I gave it up. I got more humbug by it than all the good it was.

15,266. How were you humbugged by it?-I would sometimes take goods in that had perhaps been stolen, and I lost them altogether. It was a kind of broker's business that I did.

15,267. Did you do a good deal of that business at one time?-Not much.

15,268. But still you were a broker to some extent?-It was not worth speaking of.

15,269. What kind of goods were you in the habit of getting in that way?-Various sorts of goods, such as wearing apparel. There was nothing else that I recollect of particularly just now.

15,270. Did you sometimes get cottons and other goods that were not made up into wearing apparel?-Not that I remember.

15,271. I thought you said you had dealt to some extent in cottons and calicoes?-I got them from the south along with my other goods.

15,272. Did you sometimes lay in a small stock of these?-Yes.

15,273. Have you never purchased any cotton, or [Page 387] calicoes, or dress stuffs not made up, from people at your counter?-I cannot recollect just now. I had a small book in which I entered these purchases.

15,274. Have you got that book with you?-I have not seen it for the last six months.

15,275. You will go for that book, and show it to me here?-Yes.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, LAURENCE THOMPSON, examined.

15,276. Are you a seaman in Lerwick?-I am.

15,277. Have you gone frequently on sealing and whaling voyages from this port?-Yes.

15,278. By what agent, have you been engaged?-I have gone from them all.

15,279. Did you have an account for outfit and supplies from the agent who engaged you every time you went?-Yes.

15,280. When did you go first?-In 1858.

15,281. Did you go as a green hand then?-Yes.

15,282. Where did you get your outfit?-From Mr. Leask.

15,283. Did you settle for it at the end of the voyage?-Yes.

15,284. Did you manage to pay it up the first year?-Yes; and I had 5s. clear.

15,285. Did you ask on that occasion for payment of part of your earnings in cash?-Yes; when I came home I got the 5s. which I had clear. I had had all the rest in goods.

15,286. Did you not want to let part of the goods stand on an account?-No.

15,287. You wanted to pay it all up and to be clear?-Yes.

15,288. Did you continue to engage with Mr. Leask for some years after that?-For two years; and then I went to Mr. Tait.

15,289. Why did you go to him then?-Partly because I wanted a longer voyage; I wanted to go to Davis Straits.

15,290. Had Mr. Leask no ships going the long voyage that year?-Yes.

15,291. Could you not have got a berth from him?-Yes, if I had asked for it.

15,292. Why did you not ask for it?-I did not just incline.

15,293. Why did you not incline?-I had no particular reason for it.

15,294. Had you run up an account with Mr. Leask the year before?-Yes.

15,295. Had you left him clear?-Yes; and I had got £2 in cash.

15,296. Had you a second payment of oil-money to get that year?-Yes.

15,297. Did you get payment of that in money?-Yes.

15,298. Was that before or after you had engaged with Mr. Tait?- It was before.

15,299. How long did you continue with Mr. Tait?-I went five voyages with him.

15,300. Did you get all your supplies during that time from him?- Yes, whatever I asked or wanted.

15,301. Did you always get your balances paid to you in cash?- Yes.

15,302. Had you no difficulty in getting that?-No; whenever I asked them I always got them.

15,303. Were you not sometimes asked to take them in goods?- No. They would ask you if you wanted anything, but that was all; and I got my things as good there as at any other place.

15,304. Had you not, in one of these years, to ask more than once for the money?-No, not to my recollection. If I asked for the money I always got it.

15,305. Was it paid to you in Mr. Tait's office beside the shop?- Yes. I went through the shop into the office, and Mr. Tait settled with me there.

15,306. Did he or any of his people always ask you if you wanted any goods when you went to get your settlement?-No, he did not ask me; but sometimes they would ask me if I wanted anything when I came out from settlement. We could either take it or leave it, any way we liked.

15,307. In some of these years, were there a great number of men going to Greenland?-Yes.

15,308. Were there sometimes more than there were berths for?- Yes.

15,309. But you never lost a berth?-No; whenever I asked it I got it.

15,310. Were you not known to the agents to be a good seaman, and were you not always on good terms with them?-I never was on bad terms with them, and I always got a berth when I wanted it.

15,311. But you always had an account with your agent?-Yes.

15,312. And a good lot of supplies?-Sometimes not very much, but sometimes I had a good lot.

15,313. Do you think the fact of your having a pretty large account had anything to do with your always getting a berth?-I don't think it. Sometimes I would have a good account with one agent, and go to another agent and get a ship from him.

15,314. Did you not always take your supplies principally from the agent with whom you were engaging for the year?-Yes, principally.

15,315. You were five years with Mr. Tait; that would be down to 1866: who did you go to then?-I went back to Mr. Leask.

15,316. Have you been engaged with him ever since?-No; I was with Mr. Tulloch in 1868.

15,317. Why did you leave Mr. Leask at that time?-I don't know. The ship was not in that I was going with, and I just shipped in another one.

15,318. Did you take your supplies from Mr. Tulloch that year?- Yes, whatever small things I wanted.

15,319. Had you been quite clear with Mr. Leask the year before, and got payment of your balance in money?-Yes. I got paid in the Custom House that year.

15,320. Was the amount of your account at Mr. Leask's shop deducted when they paid you at the Custom House?-Yes.

15,321. Then it was merely the balance that was paid to you there?-No; I got the full amount, and paid them back.

15,322. Did you go down to the shop and pay them back there?- Yes.

15,323. Had you seen your account at the shop before?-Yes.

15,324. Is that the way in which you have been settled with ever since?-Yes.

15,325. You see your account beforehand, and then go up to the Custom House, get payment of the cash, and then you bring down the money and settle your account?-Yes.

15,326. When you left the shop after seeing your account and went up to the Custom House, were you told to come back and pay your account the same day?-Yes.

15,327. You were always reminded of that?-Yes.

15,328. And when you came back to pay your account, were you asked if you wanted any more goods?-No. I did not buy anything unless I chose.

15,329. Do you generally get your last payment of oil-money in cash, or in goods?-In cash; but if I want them, I can get it in goods.

15,330. Do you sometimes want it in goods?-Sometimes we may take some trifling things on it if we want them, but if not we get it all in money.

15,331. Have you any reason to complain of having to go to the Custom House and then to go down to the shop and pay your money?-No.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, recalled.

15,332. You have now produced to me the book containing your transactions in the brokery line: are all [Page 388] your transactions in that business entered there?-Yes, so far as I know.

15,333. These transactions do not appear to have amounted, on the whole, to more than two or three per month on an average?- There might be that in some months, but in other months there would be nothing. It was a rare case when I bought anything in that way at all; it was merely when anything was brought to me that I thought worth buying.

15,334. Were these articles paid for in cash or in provisions?- In cash first, and then the people might spend it in provisions afterwards. I have seen me get all the money back again before they went out.

15,335. Have you known many instances of knitters bringing goods or articles of dress to you and selling them?-I never questioned them about that. If they came with an article, I asked their name and the price, but that was all. I have also asked them if they were sure it was not stolen; I was very particular about that.

15,336. Have they ever told you that the goods they were selling were goods that they had got for knitting?-I recollect them saying once or twice that they had taken them for their hosiery, but they took money from me when I bought the goods from them.

15,337. But they told you they had got these goods for hosiery?- They had perhaps got them out of certain shops; but I believe they had generally got them on credit, until they had something made which would pay for them.

15,338. Were these women employed in knitting?-Yes; but there were only one or two cases of that kind.

15,339. But you have known two or three cases in which women, known to you to be knitters, came with goods in that way and sold them?-Yes, they would say they had got them from so and so; but I don't recollect any particular party.

15,340. Can you point to any of these transactions in the book?- No; I don't recollect whether the articles that were entered in the book were got from knitters or from other parties. Sometimes they wanted cash for their goods, because they could not get cash at the shop where they were dealing.

15,341. But, in these circumstances, the people who were refused the cash got the goods, as you understood at the time?-Yes, I understood so.

15,342. And they took the goods, and brought them to you and got the cash?-Yes.

15,343. Did you know that these goods were got at a shop where hosiery was taken?-I cannot tell; I never asked about that. They may have said so but perhaps that might have been false.

15,344. Did they give the name of any party from whom they had got the goods?-No; they just said they had got the goods when they could not get the cash.

15,345. May that have been said half a dozen times?-Not so many. I only recollect hearing of it once or twice.

15,346. Do you say that it has not happened half a dozen times in the ten or eleven years that you have been in business?-I don't recollect it happening so often as that. I just recollect hearing it spoke about.

15,347. Do people sometimes come to you yet offering articles for sale, although you have given up that part of your business?-Yes, occasionally; but not so much now as before I gave it up.

15,348. Do you not sometimes take them still?-I don't think I have taken any since the 1st entry in the book on April 15, 1870.

15,349. Are you quite sure that you have never bought any article at all in your shop since then?-Not that I recollect.

15,350. Would you be likely to forget if you had done it?-I don't know; but I have not done it, so far as my recollection goes. I have once bought a jacket which I wore myself; but it was from a friend, a party that I knew, and it was not a thing that I was in the way of buying.

15,351. Can you swear that you have not had more than half a dozen applications, in the whole course of your business, from women whom you knew or supposed to be knitters, asking you to give them money or provisions for goods which they had got for their hosiery?-They never asked provisions for them. If they wanted provisions, they took them out afterwards; they just asked for the cash, and I gave them what I thought the article was worth to me.

15,352. Do you swear that you have not had more than half a dozen such applications in the course of your business?-I don't recollect more than one or two. Of course, I did not ask them pointedly where they had got the articles, or how they had got them, except merely that I wished to know that the articles had not been got in a dishonest way.

15,353. But I see that a great number of the entries in the book relate to transactions with females?-Yes.

15,354. Can you swear that the majority of these women were not knitters who were in the habit of dealing with hosiery shops, and who came to you and got cash for the goods which they had got there?-That might have been so, but I really cannot say.

15,355. Can you swear that one out of every two of these women did not come and sell goods to you which she had got in that way?-She might have got them in that way, but I cannot tell.

15,356. Were most of the purchases which you made, of new articles or of old?-The greater part of the things had been worn.

15,357. Do you think there was any other way in which the women got these articles, except by getting them from the hosiery shops?-Certainly.

15,358. Were there some of them which had been got at the agents' shops where the women were supplied, while the men were away at the fishing?-They might have had accounts at these shops, and got goods there in part payment for the men's wages.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA DALZELL, examined.

15,359. Do you live in Scalloway Road, Lerwick?-Yes.

15,360. Have you been in the habit of knitting and selling your goods, or have you knitted with your own wool?-I have both knitted with merchants' wool and with wool of my own.

15,361. Have you knitted for a long time, and had a great deal of experience in it?-I have knitted for about thirty-two or thirty-three years. During that time I have knitted mostly with my own wool.

15,362. How have you been paid for your hosiery?-Either in money or goods.

15,363. Have you ever been paid altogether in money?-Yes, often.

15,364. Is it not the usual way in Lerwick to pay for hosiery in goods only?-Yes, that is generally the way in which most of them do.

15,365. Why has an exception been made in your case?-I don't think any exception has been made with me. Whenever I brought a good article to the merchants I asked money for it, and when I thought it was an inferior article I never thought of asking for money.

15,366. Was it generally very fine articles that you knitted?-Not particularly fine, but I have sometimes knitted very fine articles.

15,367. Was it only for the very fine articles that you got the money?-It was only for them that I asked the money.

15,368. How much was the largest sum you got at one time?-I think I have got as much as £5 at one time from Mr. Arthur Laurenson, but I am not sure; his books will show.

15,369. Did you get that money for one article?-Not for one article. It was for a number.

15,370. Was it on an account with him that you got that?-Yes; but I do not remember the exact sum.

[Page 389]

15,371. What did you get it for?-There was a cloak and several other articles, and the balances upon several shawls which I had been leaving with him.

15,372. For what purpose did you get so much money?-I cannot remember exactly. I had a reason at the time for asking so much, but I don't remember asking the money when I sold the articles.

15,373. But you had a special reason for wanting that money?- Yes. I would rather not mention what it was, unless it is necessary.

15,374. Did you tell Mr. Laurenson the reason?-Yes.

15,375. Did you get all the money that was due to you at that time?-Yes. I sent a girl who was living in my house at the time to Mr. Laurenson for the cash, and he sent the balance by her, and a line along with it to show that he had paid it.

15,376. Was there not a discount taken off because you had got it in cash?-There was nothing taken off.

15,377. What was the next largest sum that you got at any one time?-I have got £3 at one time from Mr. Robert Linklater.

15,378. Was there any special reason for that?-I got it for a very fine cloak which I sold to him.

15,379. Did you sell it to him for a money price?-I sold it, and asked the money, and got it from him there and then.

15,380. Did you ever get as much as that on any other occasion?- No; but I have often got £2, which is generally considered the price of a good cloak.

15,381. Did you sell it to them for that in cash?-Yes.

15,382. Did you ever get money when you knitted for any merchant

15,383. How much did you get then?-I can scarcely remember. I knitted at one time for Mr. Gilbert Harrison, and I always got money from him when I asked it, whether it was a large sum or a small sum. The firm is now Harrison & Sons, but it was before young Mr. Harrison's time that I got that money. I don't think they deal in hosiery now; at least I have not dealt with them for a long time.

15,384. Have you dealt with any other merchant and got money in such large sums as that?-I once had a transaction with Mr. Wm. Johnston, and I asked in money and £1 in goods, and I got it.

15,385. There was a letter sent to me in which it was stated that you could tell me a story about a certain merchant in town: do you know anything about that letter?-No. I was wondering who had mentioned my name to you.

15,386. [Shown letter dated 9th January 1872, and signed W. Linklater.] Do you know that handwriting?-I do not, but I know what it refers to. It was merely a private thing that I was telling to another party about having taken some hosiery to a merchant.

15,387. Do you know the party who writes the letter?-I don't think I do.

15,388. What does the letter refer to?-I bought some stockings from a merchant in Lerwick, and I was selling some shawls to him, but he did not like to take hosiery in return for his stockings. He said he would take one half money and one half shawls, and I went home, and I think it was either 20s. or 30s. that I got from my husband to pay one half of the price.

15,389. What quantity of hosiery had you bought?-I think it was rather more than £2 worth.

15,390. Was that for your own family?-No. It was for a party who had sent to me for some hosiery, and I went to that merchant's shop for it.

15,391. Do you sometimes deal in hosiery yourself?-I sometimes send work south, but I oftener sell it here. It is a long time since that affair happened; and I think the price came to nearly £3, but I don't remember the amount.

15,392. How long ago was it?-Perhaps 12 years ago, or perhaps not so much.

15,393. Was it the practice at that time, as it is now, to pay for hosiery in goods?-Yes.

15,394. But when you bought hosiery, was it understood you were to pay for it in cash?-There was no understanding about it. I just went to the shop for the stockings, and the merchant agreed to take one half of the payment in hosiery and the other half in cash, which I paid to him. I asked his reason for doing that, and he said that by taking the hosiery it was turning his goods twice over for only one profit.

15,395. Was that the only transaction you ever had with that merchant?-I had plenty of transactions with him before, but not many after.

15,396. Do you sometimes buy a great quantity of wool?-Yes; but it is very difficult to get the best wool.

15,397. Where do you buy it?-Sometimes from country merchants, generally from Fetlar. I get some worsted from William Tulloch, Fetlar. I generally pay 4d. a cut for it. The finest is 6d. a cut; that is the kind which is used in making fine shawls and fine cloaks in Shetland.

15,398. You don't buy it in wool yourself, but in worsted?-Yes. There are some of the people in Lerwick who buy it in fine wool, and send it to the country to be spun, before they can get it really fine.

15,399. Are they not able to buy the finest worsted in the shops in Lerwick?-I never could do so.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, GEORGE JAMIESON, examined.

15,400. Have you a farm at North Roe, on the estate of Busta?- Yes. I have only had one crop there.

15,401. Have you been a fisherman?-Yes, all my life.

15,402. Whom did you fish for?-I have fished for different people in my time. When I was on Messrs. Hay's property I fished for them; but they suspended me from fishing, and I would not go again. They wanted to put me into a boat with some old men. I would not agree to that, and I lost my fishing for four years.

15,403. Were you at liberty to fish for whom you pleased?-I was not. They stopped other fish-curers from taking me during these four years.

15,404. How did they do that?-I offered to go for different men, and they would not take me for fear of Mr. Greig, Messrs. Hay's factor at North Roe.

15,405. Are the tenants on the Gossaburgh estate bound to fish for Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes. I was bound to do so all the time I was there. One year I agreed with Mr. Anderson, Hillswick, to go to the fishing for him, and I came with my share of fishing lines, but he would not give his men a share of lines to make up the fishing with; and he gave us an old boat that we would not risk our lives in, and he would not give us any meal.

15,406. Are you also employed in keeping paupers?-Yes, I have two old women-one from the parish of Lerwick, and one from the parish of Northmaven. I have £8 for the one from Northmaven. I only had 13s. for five months for the pauper who belonged to Lerwick, but now they have given me 1s. 6d. a week, which comes to £3, 18s. a year.

15,407. Who pays you these sums?-Mr. Greig.

15,408. Does he pay you for both the paupers?-Yes.

15,409. Does he keep the post office?-No; but they put the money into his hands, and most of it has been taken out in truck. He refuses to give me any money except a mere trifle.

15,410. Whom did you make your bargain about these paupers with?-One was with Mr. Johnston of Lerwick, and the other was with Mr. Bruce at Urrafirth.

15,411. Do you not receive post-office orders or money from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Johnston for the maintenance of these paupers?-It comes to Mr. Greig; I cannot say how it comes.

15,412. Have you ever asked that the money should be sent to you direct?-No.

15,413. Is Mr. Greig a member of the parochial board of Northmaven parish?-I believe he is.

[Page 390]

15,414. But he is not a member of the Lerwick parochial board?- No.

15,415. How does he happen to pay you money for Lerwick parish?-They send it to him.

15,416. Have you ever asked him for the whole of that money in cash?-No.

15,417. Why?-Because he seemed that he would not pay it in cash.

15,418. How did he seem so?-He said he would not do so, and that there was no use of him taking the trouble if I would not take the greater part of it out in truck.

15,419. When did he say that to you?-He has said it to me several times. He said it some time after I got the first pauper, who belonged to Northmaven. That is about two years back.

15,420. Did he say it to you when you went for the first payment?-Yes.

15,421. Had you not run up an account at his shop before the money was due?-I had not.

15,422. Did you owe him anything then?-I owed him nothing. He was my landmaster then, but I did not owe him anything.

15,423. Is that money paid quarterly?-It is paid monthly here.

15,424. Did you ever ask Mr. Greig for a monthly payment in cash?-I did not.

15,425. Why?-I cannot tell. I suppose it was because we always had his shop to go to for things that we required for the paupers, and we thought we need not ask for cash.

15,426. Were you not always due him as much as the monthly payment before it became due?-I was not.

15,427. Were you not due him something?-Yes, a small thing, but not the whole of the money.

15,428. Did you ever ask him for the balance in money?-Yes.

15,429. Did you get it?-Yes.

15,430. Then, when was it that Mr. Greig said he could not give it to you in money, but that you must take it out in truck?-Just when they sent the paupers to me.

15,431. Are you sure there was not something due to Mr. Greig then for supplies to the paupers?-There was nothing due.

15,432. Had you not got any supplies from him for these women before the first payment was due?-Yes, I got what I wanted whenever I asked it.

15,433. Then there was something due to him for that?-Yes; he never refused to give me anything for them as soon as I came for it.

15,434. There was something due to him for these supplies at the time when the first monthly payment became due?-Yes, but not to the whole amount of it.

15,435. Why did you say that you were not due him anything?-I had to take out the things because I could not get the money.

15,436. Did you ask him for the balance?-I did.

15,437. How much was there due to you at that time?-I cannot tell, because we don't keep accounts.

15,438. Have you no pass-book?-No.

15,439. Did Mr. Greig actually say to you that you must take your payment in truck?-He said we must take part of it in truck, and that he would not pay it all in money.

15,440. Did he use the word truck?-Yes.

15,441. Did he not say that you were to take part of it in goods?- Goods were the same as truck, and he meant that we were to take meal or tea, or anything, out of his shop.

15,442. But what did he actually say?-He said we must take goods out of his shop for part of the money, because he could not pay it all in money. He said that the first time I went to him.

15,443. When did he say it again?-He said it very often.

15,444. When did he say it last?-This winter.

15,445. Where did he say it?-In his shop at North Roe.

15,446. Were you asking for money at that time?-Yes. I asked him then for the 13s. which came for the pauper from Lerwick, and he said he would give me that, but that he need not have the trouble of paying it all down in money.

15,447. Had you not got a lot of supplies at that time?-No.

15,448. Do you swear that, when you asked him for the 13s., you were owing him nothing for supplies?-I was owing him nothing.

15,449. Had you got any supplies from him before that?-I had got nothing from him for the pauper from Lerwick.

15,450. But had you got supplies for your own household?-I had; but I was due him nothing.

15,451. Had all the supplies that you had got from Mr. Greig for other parties up to that time been paid for?-They were all paid for when I asked for the 13s.

15,452. Had you any account due at the-shop at that time?-I cannot tell. I don't think it. There could be nothing due.

15,453. You said just now that all the supplies you had ever got were paid for at that time?-They were paid for.

15,454. And then you say in the next sentence that you cannot say whether they were paid for or not?-I asked for nothing for this woman until the came.

15,455. Do you keep a separate account for every woman that you have?-I believe we do.

15,456. Do you know anything about your accounts?-I don't know a great deal about them.

15,457. Are you sure that Mr. Greig has told you that you must take part of your payment for the paupers in goods?-Yes.

15,458. Is not all that he has done merely to keep part of the money that was already due to him for supplies which you had got?-He said he would not pay it all in money. That is all I have got to say about it.

15,459. Did he not say that he would not give it all to you in money because you were due him something for supplies you had already got?-I was never due Mr. Greig anything.

15,460. Had you not got supplies from him before he said that?-I had got supplies, but they never ran up to the sum which I had to get payment of from him. There was always money due to me.

15,461. Were you ever due Mr. Greig anything at all?-I was not.

15,462. Did you not owe him money for the supplies you had got?-We never sought supplies that would run up to the sum which we had to get. There was always something in his hand.

15,463. Do you understand what it is to be due a man money?- Yes.

15,464. Do you understand that you are due a man money when you have got goods from him and not paid for them?-I know that.

15,465. Were you not due Mr. Greig money when you had got these goods and had not paid for them?-I was.

15,466. Was it not at the time when you were due him money for these supplies that he said he could not give you the money which was due for the paupers?-He said, first of all, that we were not to ask all money when we were due him for goods.

15,467. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing.

15,468. You have given your evidence in such a manner, that I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT IRVINE, examined.

15,469. Are you a broker in Lerwick?-I am a general dealer. I deal in new as well as second-hand goods.

[Page 391]

15,470. Do you deal in provisions?-Very little; mostly in soft goods.

15,471. Do you make many purchases of soft goods and wearing apparel over your counter?-Of wearing apparel, but not of hosiery.

15,472. Do you sometimes purchase articles which are not made up, such as cotton?-Yes, and new articles too. If a man buys an article that does not fit him, and he comes back to me with it, I will take it from him and sell him another, or give him the cash.

15,473. Is this [showing] the book in which you enter all your transactions?-Yes.

15,474. Are women in the practice of selling goods to you which they have got in the shops?-There is very little of that done. I cannot say that I ever recollect a case of it.

15,475. Have you many transactions with women?-Very few. It is mostly men's apparel that I get.

15,476. I see that in your book most of the entries are in the names of men?-Yes; I always deal with men, except on rare occasions.

15,477. Are you the only broker of this kind in Lerwick?-I think I am the principal one; I have a licence as a broker.

15,478. Can you say that you have not had any transactions with women who might have been knitters, and who were disposing of goods which they had got for their hosiery?-I cannot tell exactly. Sometimes they may have come in with goods which they had got in that way, but it is very little of that kind of thing that comes my way.

15,479. Have you had many dealings with women whom you knew to be knitters?-Very few. I don't know that I recollect a single case. As I have said, it is generally men's work that I get.

15,480. Do you enter every transaction which you have in the book which you have produced?-Every one.

15,481. Is it not possible that some purchases of that kind from women are not entered in it?-No; I do not want to omit them, because I want to punish them if they are rogues.

15,482. But these women will be perfectly honest in making such sales?-Yes, but I don't think there has ever been such a case in my business.

15,483. Have you ever bought any lines from women?-I never saw one offered; and even if it had been offered, I would not have bought it or meddled with it at all.

15,484. Do you know anything at all about the lines?-I don't recollect ever seeing one in my life because I am not in the way of it.

15,485. Have you heard of them?-I have heard of them repeatedly.

15,486. I suppose the trade of a broker is not a very flourishing one in Lerwick?-No, it is very dull; but I am a dealer also, and can make up things otherwise, which helps me through.

15,487. Do you know whether that business of buying second-hand articles is practised by any people who act as hawkers and who hawk through the country?-I don't know of any people who do that.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, FRANCIS GIFFORD, examined.

15,488. Are you a seaman, living in Bressay?-I am.

15,489. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for a good many years?-Yes, I went there during the first years of my time, and then I went south; but afterwards I have been at the sealing and whaling again.

15,490. Have you always engaged with some agent in Lerwick?- Yes, I have engaged with them all except Mr. Tulloch; I never went out from him.

15,491. Have you always received payment of your wages on your return from the voyage?-Yes, for the last three or four years I have always got my money at the Custom House.

15,492. Before the regulations were introduced according to which you were paid at the Custom House, did you settle with the agent at his shop?-Yes.

15,493. Did you always get your money on these occasions?-Not exactly.

15,494. Had you an account then for outfit and supplies?-Yes.

15,495. Did you always get the balance that was due?-Yes, I got it, but very little money.

15,496. Was that because you had a large account?-I don't know.

15,497. Do you remember some years ago being engaged by Mr. Joseph Leask on a voyage to what is called the west-ice?-Yes.

15,498. Is that in Davis Straits?-No, it is to the northward.

15,499. Do you remember applying for your wages in money in that year?-Yes.

15,500. Did you get it at once whenever you asked for it?-Yes.

15,501. Did you sail in the same vessel again that year?-Yes; but Mr. Leask was not for me going in her again, because I had got my money. If it had not been for the captain I would not have got with the vessel, but he said he would have me. The vessel was the 'Camperdown,' and that occurred in 1866.

15,502. What was Mr. Leask's reason for not engaging you for that vessel?-I don't know.

15,503. You said it was because you got your money?-I believe Mr. Leask thought I was for the double voyage, but I was only for the single voyage; and when I came home after the first voyage I got settled with him, because at that time I was intending to go south. I came over and got my money, but before the end of the week the vessel returned again, going to Davis Straits, and I went up to see if I could get a chance to go in her. When Captain Bruce told me to go and get my things and come with the vessel again, Mr. Leask was wild, and said I should not get a chance.

15,504. Had you intended at first not to go on the second voyage that year?-I was anxious to go but I did not know that the Captain was to put me down for the double voyage.

15,505. Why was Mr. Leask wild?-I don't know; I suppose it was because he thought I was only for the single voyage, and I came over and got my money.

15,506. Would he not have given you your money if he had known you were going the other voyage?-I believe he would not.

15,507. How did you happen to ask for your money at that time? Is it not usual to ask for it after the first voyage?-When the men go for a single voyage, which lasts for about six weeks, they are cleared off when they go home; but when they go for the double voyage they cannot get their money until the end of the season. Mr. Leask thought I was shipped for the double voyage and that I would come over and draw the whole of my money at one time; but of course I did not know myself that I was for the double voyage until the captain came again and put me down for it.

15,508. Do men never draw their money at the end of the first voyage except when they are done with the ship for that season?- They do it now. As soon as their six weeks are over and they come back again, they draw their money; but they did not do that before.

15,509. Was it always the practice before to make only one settlement for the long voyage?-Yes.

15,510. Have you always got your money since 1866?-Yes.

15,511. Have you also incurred an account at the same time with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.

15,512. How is it settled?-It was settled at the end of the season.

15,513. Was it read over to you before you went up to the Custom House to get payment of your money?-Yes.

15,514. Was the balance written out in the books before you went up?-Yes.

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15,515. You went up and got your money from the Custom House from the agent or his clerk, and then you came down to the shop and paid your account?-Yes.

15,516. When you went to the shop in the first place, were you always told to come back and pay your account?-Yes.

15,517. Who tells you to do that?-The agent.

15,518. Have you always had your account clear at the end of the season, or have you sometimes been in debt to the shop?-I have always been clear.

15,519. Do you know that young hands are sometimes in debt to the shop at the end of the season?-Yes.

15,520. Has there sometimes been a difficulty in getting berths in the sealing and whaling vessels, in consequence of more men applying than were wanted?-Yes.

15,521. What kind of men are preferred in such circumstances; is it the best quality of men?-There are generally all sorts of hands-green hands, and able seamen, and ordinary seamen of all kinds.

15,522. When a man is in debt to an agent, do you think he has any better chance of getting a berth?-My partners think so. They think that if a man is in debt the agent will perhaps try to get him into a vessel, in order that he may be able to clear off his debt.

15,523. Do you know that they have done that?-Yes, I have seen it.

15,524. What have you seen?-I have seen agents getting men who were in their debt put into their ships.

15,525. Have you heard the captains complaining of the agents putting inferior men upon them for that reason?-I have. Captain Bruce of the 'Camperdown,' complained about that in 1866. He said to the men that Mr. Leask was putting hands into the ship that he did not like, and that he would have liked better hands.

15,526. Did he state the reason why he supposed Mr. Leask was doing that?-He did not tell us about the reason.

15,527. Then how did you know that that was the reason why Mr. Leask had put in inferior hands?-I knew they were men who were in debt to him.

15,528. Did you know that from the men themselves?-Yes, I knew it from several men; but I don't remember their names- they were men on board the 'Camperdown' that year along with me.

15,529. Did they tell you that their being in debt had given them a better chance of a berth?-Yes; and that when they were in debt they got a ship.

15,530. Was that a general understanding among them?-Yes.

15,531. Did you know of any better men who wished to go in that ship, but who were refused because they were not in debt?-No; but I know that if men are debt to the agent they will get a ship sooner than those who are clear with him.

15,532. But you have always got a ship although you were not in debt?-Yes.

15,533. Are you an able seaman?-Yes, I am a boat-steerer.

15,534. Do harpooneers and boat-steerers get a higher wage, and are they more sure of getting a berth than ordinary seamen?-Yes, they get higher wages, and are more in demand.

15,535. On the occasion you spoke of, when you went in the 'Camperdown' with Captain Bruce, it was to the captain that you owed your engagement, and not to the agent?-Yes.

15,536. If the agent had had his own way, would you have been engaged?-I would not.

15,537. Had you an account with the agent at that time?-No, I had some more money to get from him.

15,538. Had he not paid you up the whole of the money that was due to you on the sealing voyage?-No; there was a second payment of oil-money which I had to get.

15,539. Is it quite understood among the whalers, that when their money is paid to them at the Custom House they have to go down to the shops and pay it to the agents?-Yes; they quite understand that they have to clear the agent's books.

15,540. I suppose a man would not think of letting his account stand any longer?-No.

15,541. What would be the consequence if he did that?-I cannot say.

15,542. Would he get a berth next year?-He might get a berth next year, but it is best to have the books cleared.

15,543. But suppose a man had other accounts due, would he have to go and pay the agent first, and let his other accounts wait?-I don't know about that.

15,544. Does not a man go and pay the agent first, whether he has other people wanting his money or not?-As a rule, they go and pay the agent first.

15,545. Have you heard any of the men complain that they had to pay the agents in preference to other accounts which they wished to settle?-No.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER HALCROW, examined.

15,546. Are you a seaman?-Yes.

15,547. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for some years back?-Yes, for nine years.

15,548. What agents in Lerwick have you been engaged by?-The whole of them.

15,549. Did you always get your outfit from the agent you engaged with?-Yes, the most part of it.

15,550. And you settled your account with him at the end of the year?-Yes.

15,551. Had you always a balance to receive in money?- Generally. Once I had not; that was in my second year.

15,552. Have you always got any money that was due to you paid in cash?-No.

15,553. When did you not?-The first year I was out.

15,554. Was there something due to you that year?-Yes,

15,555. Did you ask for it to be paid to you?-Yes, at different times; but I did not get it. I was told that the agent had not got it himself, and that therefore I could not get it.

15,556. When did you return that year?-On 1st October.

15,557. How long was it after that before you got your money paid?-I never got it paid at all. I had to take goods for it out of Mr. Leask's shop.

15,558. Were you told to take goods?-No, he did not tell me to take them; but I had to take them when I could not get the money. I was in need of them.

15,559. Did you want the goods?-Yes, I was requiring things, and I got them there.

15,560. Did he say that you had better take goods, as the money had not come?-No, he did not say that. He only said it was not come every time I came and asked for it, and as I could not wait longer I just took the things I had to get.

15,561. How long was it after you returned before you began to take the goods?-About a month or five weeks.

15,562. How often had you asked for the money within that time?-Three or four times.

15,563. Were you offered the goods?-No, I was never offered them until I asked for them.

15,564. Did you say anything about not getting your money to the agent or any of his people?-No, I did not say anything.

15,565. Are you sure there was £4 due to you at that time?- There was £4, 10s. due when we left home from the owners, and 30s. from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, because we were shipwrecked.

15,566. Then there was no oil-money that year?-None.

15,567. Did you not get the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund in cash?-No.

15,568. Did you apply for it in cash?-Yes; I applied at the shop for it, and I got a very little cash, perhaps about £1 at one time and another-not all at once.

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15,569. Have you ever taken part of your earnings in goods since then?-Yes, I have done so almost every year that I have been out.

15,570. But that was just in the account which you opened when you went away?-Yes.

15,571. Did your people get any advances when you were absent from the agent with whom you shipped?-Yes; a little.

15,572. And they get any supplies anywhere else?-They generally got them from the agent.

15,573. Why was that?-I don't know; they just got them there.

15,574. Do you not get a month's advance when you leave?-We get a month's advance now. We don't get the money before we leave, but we get a ticket to be paid three days after the ship sails. We generally give it to the agent, and get a little money on it, but not to the full amount of the advance.

15,575. Do you not leave that ticket at home?-Some of the men leave them at home, and the value of them is got afterwards.

15,576. Why do you not do that?-Because I may want the money before I go away, and I get a part of it from the agent.

15,577. In that case you have to leave your ticket with the agent?-Yes, we have to give it up to him.

15,578. Do you not get allotment tickets when you leave?-I don't know them.

15,579. Can you not get half-pay tickets if you want them?-Yes.

15,580. Is it not the practice to get them?-Sometimes they get them if they ask for them.

15,581. Do you take them?-No.

15,582. Why?-I don't know. We generally just get what we want in money or in goods, as we ask for it.

15,583. Do the agents give these half-pay tickets whenever they are asked for?-Yes.

15,584. Would they prefer you not to take them, but to take goods instead?-I don't know about that. I have not been told so.

15,585. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.

15,586. Do you think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.

15,587. Was he correct in what he said about a man who was in debt to the agent getting a berth more readily than another?-Yes.

15,588. Have you known that in your own experience?-I got a ship when I was in debt in my second year.

15,589. Do you think you got it more easily because you were in debt?-I cannot say for that.

15,590. Have you heard men speaking about getting a ship more easily when they were in debt?-I have heard them talking about it, but still I don't know about it myself except on that one occasion.

15,591. Have you known any case like that which Francis Gifford mentioned, of inferior men being put on board a ship because they were in the agent's debt, in preference to better men?-I never knew of that, but still it may have happened. I wish to say that in 1866 I shipped in the 'Diana' of Hull, for the west ice in Davis Straits, and when we were out I was beset in her for thirteen months, and for seven months we were on short allowance. We have never been paid for that short allowance, although the men in Hull were paid for it.

15,592. Have you applied for that?-There is a man here who has applied for it. I think he applied to Mr. Charles Duncan, writer, and also to the sheriff.

15,593. Who was the agent from whom you thought you should have got it?-Mr. Leask.

15,594. Did you apply to him for the difference which you ought to have got in consequence of being put upon short allowance?- Yes; and he told us it was no use applying for it, because he did not think we would get it. I never asked Mr. Leask about that myself, but other men in Lerwick have done it.

15,595. Did they mention to him that the Hull men had got the difference paid to them?-Yes.

15,596. Did Mr. Leask offer to do anything for you in that case?- Not as far as I know; but I was away from home at the time when the men applied for it.

15,597. Do you think that has anything to do with your dealings at Mr. Leask's shop?-I don't think so, but I suppose Mr. Leask could have applied for it if he had liked.

15,598. Had you an account with him that year which you settled as usual at the end of the season?-Yes.

15,599. Did you not apply for the difference on the short allowance when you were settling that account?-Yes. They told me then that they did not know but what they might get it for us, but still they did not say that we would get it, and it has not come yet.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM LAURENSON, examined.

15,600. Are you a seaman living in Bressay?-Yes. I have been at the sealing and whaling for thirty-six years. I have got settled, and got my wages paid to me at the Custom House for some years back, but that was not done when I first went.

15,601. Before you were paid at the Custom House, did you not get payment of your wages?-I got no satisfaction of them. I very often did not see an account. I would come over from Bressay two or three different times wanting to get settled, but they would shove me off time after time, giving me perhaps 10s. or £1; but they would not settle with me.

15,602. Were you owing an account for supplies at that time?- I got supplies from the shop when I went on the voyage, but I always had balances of money to get. I never was in debt.

15,603. By what agents were you treated in that way?-They are long dead now.

15,604. Did that not continue till 1867, when the new regulations came into force, according to which you were paid at the Custom House?-Yes; the system continued much the same until then.

15,605. Were you put off in the same way from time to time down till 1867?-Yes; perhaps getting £1 or 10s. now and again.

15,606. What agents were you engaged by, five or six years ago?- I was engaged by Mr. Tait, and I was three years for Mr. Tulloch; but I was paid at the Custom House then.

15,607. Were you often engaged by Mr. Tait before 1867?-I would be engaged by him perhaps two years at a time, and then I would leave him and go to another, and then go back to him again.

15,608. Who else did you engage with?-I went out a long time for Messrs. Hay, and I was with Mr. Leask too.

15,609. When you went, until five years ago, to get a settlement of your account, were you always put off with £1 or 10s., or some supplies, if you wanted them?-I was put off now and again.

15,610. Did all the agents who employed you treat you in the same way?-Almost every one.

15,611. Did you not get a settlement with Messrs. Hay when you asked for it?-Yes; I got a fair settlement with Messrs. Hay when I went out from their shop.

15,612. Were you ever put off in the way you have mentioned when you were engaged by them?-No; and I was engaged by them for ten years.

15,613. When you went to Mr. Tait, did he settle with you when you asked for it, even before the new system?-Yes.

15,614. Did he ever put you off in that way?-No. I was out of his shop when his father was alive, and he settled with me in the same way.

15,615. Had you ever to ask him twice for your money?-No.

15,616. Did you get a settlement whenever you went there for it?-Yes.

15,617. Did you always get your money in full when you went over to ask for it from Mr. Leask?-I got what was due to me; but I generally had some things out of the shop before I went, and then I got the balance.

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15,618. Could you always get it at once without any difficulty?- Yes; I just asked for it and I got it.

15,619. Then who were the agents who put you off in the way you mentioned?-They are all dead long ago.

15,620. I thought you said the system of putting you off in that way, and of giving you £1 or 10s. at a time, continued till about five or six years ago?-Sometimes it did, and sometimes not. Some years I never got a fair account, and in other years I did.

15,621. But you always got a fair account from Messrs. Hay?- Yes.

15,622. And from Mr. Leask?-Yes.

15,623. And from Mr. Tait and Mr. Tulloch?-Yes.

15,624. What agents were there besides these, five or six years ago?-It is far longer than five or six years since I was put off in that way, and did not get the settlement when I wanted it.

15,625. Will it be ten years since you asked for your money and did not get it?-It will be ten years, or above that.

15,626. Will it be fifteen or twenty years ago?-It will be from fifteen to twenty years.

15,627. Are you a harpooneer or a boat-steerer?-I am a boat-steerer.

15,628. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.

15,629. Do you think he was generally correct in what he said?- Yes. I know quite well that men who were in debt to the agent could get a ship sooner than I could, who was clear with them.

15,630. Could a man do that although he was not so good a seaman?-Yes.

15,631. Was that a general belief among the men?-Yes. For my part, I never was indebted to any of the agents, and therefore I got a ship whenever wanted it.

15,632. Did you get a ship because you were not in debt?-Yes; it did not matter. I stayed in one ship for a long time.

15,633. Were the agents more willing to get a berth for a man who was not in their debt?-No.

15,634. Did they prefer to engage a man who was in their debt?- Yes; but there were not very many that would be in debt. Perhaps a young hand, who had been a year or two only at the whaling, and had small wages, would be in debt, and they would take him next year in order to clear off the accounts which he had left the year before.

15,635. Do you think the green hands were ready to get into debt in order to make sure of getting a berth next year?-I don't know about that.

15,636. Then what did you mean by saying that you never were in debt, and therefore you always got berth when you wanted it?-I only meant to say that always got a ship when I wanted one, but that I never was in debt to the agents; and therefore I cannot prove whether they would take me more readily if I was in debt. But I have heard the men saying that those who were in debt would be shipped as soon as the others.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ELIZABETH MORRISON, examined.

15,637. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

15,638. What do you do?-Anything that I can. I go errands or knit stockings, or anything of that sort.

15,639. Do you sometimes go about selling things?-I have sold three or four neckties to different people.

15,640. Do you not sell other kinds of goods?-No. If I sell anything, it is of my own.

15,641. Do you sell shop goods of different kinds?-No.

15,642. Do you mean that you do not go about the country and hawk goods?-I don't do that.

15,643. Did you ever get any shop goods from a knitter for the purpose of selling them or exchanging them for other things?- No; the neckties I sold I got ready money for.

15,644. It is not neckties I am speaking about at all. Have you not sold goods that you had got from knitting women for that purpose?-No, not for some years past.

15,645. Did you once do that?-Yes, some time ago.

15,646. How long ago?-I cannot remember.

15,647. A year ago?-It is about that.

15,648. Did you not make a living sometimes by getting goods from knitters and selling them again in the country?-No; I never was out of Lerwick in my time.

15,649. Did you sell them in Lerwick?-I sold some bits of dribblets of things that were not worth mentioning; but that was some time ago.

15,650. What was it that you sold?-It may have been three yards of cotton, or such as that.

15,651. Did you get such things pretty often from knitters?-No, not often.

15,652. When did you get them last?-It was a long time ago.

15,653. Was it six months ago?-It would be above that.

15,654. Would it be twelve months since you got anything of that kind to sell?-I cannot say.

15,655. You said you had perhaps sold three yards of cotton: whom did you sell it for?-I cannot remember.

15,656. Whom did you get it from?-I cannot remember.

15,657. Have you got it more than once?-Perhaps once or twice; but it is a long time ago now.

15,658. Do you think you may have got it three or four times?-I don't think I did.

15,659. What else did you get besides the three yards of cotton?- Nothing.

15,660. Did you never get a bit of cloth for a dress?-No.

15,661. Or a jacket?-No.

15,662. Or a pair of boots?-No.

15,663. Did you ever get any tea or sugar to sell?-No.

15,664. Do you swear that?-I do.

15,665. Do you swear that you never sold a quarter pound of tea in your life?-I do.

15,666. Did you never sell any sugar?-No.

15,667. Did you ever buy any except out of a shop?-I never bought any except what I bought out a shop for my ready penny.

15,668. Did you ever tell anybody that you had sold things for knitters?-No, I could not tell any one that.

15,669. Did you get that cotton from a woman who had got it for her knitting?-I don't know in what way she may have got it, but I got it from a woman. Who she was I cannot say, because she picked me up in the street and gave it to me.

15,670. Did you get it sold for her?-I did. I don't remember who bought it; it was some country person.

15,671. Do you not remember who the woman was that you got it from?-I cannot remember.

15,672. Did you know her?-I did not know her.

15,673. In what way did she ask you to sell it for her?-She asked me if I could get anybody to buy it, and I saw a country woman at my side, and she bought it.

15,674. Why did the woman ask you to get it sold?-I don't know.

15,675. Had you never seen her before?-Neither before nor since.

15,676. Have you any idea why she asked you to sell it?-No, I have no idea of that.

15,677. Do you think she had ever seen you doing the like before?-There is many an old person such as me who does errands for many a one.

15,678. Have you done errands of that kind at other times?-Yes, years and years ago.

15,679. May you have done so a good many times?-I don't know. It was very seldom I did it.

15,680. What did you get for that cotton?-I cannot remember now.

15,681. Was it money you got for it?-Yes.

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15,682. Did you pay the woman you got it from at the time?-Yes.

15,683. Had you not paid her for it before you sold it?-I gave her the money just as I got it from the woman at my side.

15,684. How long was it between the time when you got the cotton and the time when you sold it?-Perhaps a minute or five or ten minutes. The woman was just at my hand who bought it.

15,685. Why could the woman who gave it to you not have sold it herself?-I don't know.

15,686. How much did she give you for selling it?-A penny.

15,687. Did you ever get a penny for selling anything else?-No; I don't work in that way for my living.

15,688. Are you sure you never got a penny for selling any other article for a woman?-I have got many a penny at different times, but not in that exact way.

15,689. What else do you do for your living?-I live very meanly.

15,690. But do you never get any more than a penny for doing an errand now and then?-I have no idea of doing errands only for my living.

15,691. Is there anything else by which you make a living, except by going errands?-I am not going errands for ever. I sometimes sit and knit a stocking in my own room; that is all I do.

15,692. Do you sell your stockings?-No; they are just for myself.

15,693. Then they will not make it living for you?-No; but perhaps some of my friends might lift a hand to help me.

15,694. Do you live on charity?-Not altogether on charity.

15,695. You do run an errand for a penny now and then?-No, not I.

15,696. Why are you reluctant to tell me the truth?-I am not denying the truth.

15,697. You are not willing to answer my questions: why is that?-I have answered them so far as I know, and as far as I am able. I have no more to say than I have told you, and I have told you all the truth.

15,698. You say you do not make your living by charity, and you only get a penny now and then for running errands, but that is very seldom: is there any other way in which you make your living?- When a person wishes to lift their hand to me in charity, I take what they have to give me.

15,699. Do you swear that you don't make the principal part of your living by selling things in the town?-I don't make my living by that.

15,700. Do you swear that you don't sell something every day?-I don't sell something every day.

15,701. Don't you sell two or three things every week?-No; I am quite sure of that.

15,702. Have you sold anything this week?-No.

15,703. Did you sell anything last week or the week before?-No.

15,704. Did you sell anything last year?-I cannot remember what I did last year, for my memory is quite gone.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM B.M. HARRISON, examined.

15,705. Are you a partner of the firm of Harrison & Sons?-I am.

15,706. Your firm, I believe, are extensively engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

15,707. In what form is the agreement you enter into with the men for that fishing?-The men agree, in the first place, to prosecute the fishing in a certain vessel, and to join the vessel any day when we may call upon them to do so, and proceed to the fishing to either Faroe, Iceland, Rockall, or any other place that the master may think most expedient, and to stay there as long as the master thinks fit, with the exception of the trips they may make home for landing any fish they may catch, or in case of accident or for any other good reason; in consideration of which services the fishermen have to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, etc., such as master's premium, 10s. per ton, mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and the cost of bait required for catching the fish. Along with that the men have to get eight pounds of bread per man per week and 9d. per score for the fish which each man takes, one half to be paid by the owners and the other half by the crew. That is the substance of the agreement. And then there are clauses for our safety, having reference to damage that may be done to the vessel or her gear, which the men bind themselves to pay for.

15,708. Is there a scale of victualling for the men in case the vessel goes to Iceland?-Yes. The agreement binds the men to fish according to it until the 20th August; and the next clause says that if the master or owner sees fit to leave Faroe for Iceland or for a late voyage, then the men agree to go upon the victuals and wages which are stated in the agreement.

15,709. Then in addition to the stipulations in the agreement, I understand the owner receives a commission of five per cent. on the whole proceeds of the voyage?-He is entitled to get it if he can, but very often we don't get it. This year we have got nothing.

15,710. Was that because the men objected to it?-We always try to pay as high as other people; but this year we have not made such good sales, and therefore we have not taken anything off, so that we might be able to give as much per ton as other people give. In other years, again, we may get two and a half or we may get five per cent, just as the fish sales turn out; and the men don't object to us getting it if we can.

15,711. Why is there no stipulation for a commission put into the agreement?-It has never been put into our agreements from the first.

15,712 Is it a usual thing to take it?-Yes, it is quite usual if we can get it; but we have to bear and haul with other people, and if the men would be dissatisfied with us taking it we have to give it up, and we would rather do so than have any words about it.

15,713. Was this not a good year in the Faroe fishing?-No, very indifferent.

15,714. What was the amount of a share in one of your smacks with an average take this year?-I should say about £18.

15,715. Was that sum larger than the ordinary, or would some of them be less or more?-We had some of them as high as £28 for a sharesman.

15,716. Were these in the larger smacks?-No; there were others as large, but less fortunate; and there were some of them much smaller, and they could not be expected to do so well.

15,717. Do the men ever ask for or get a sight of the bills of sale?-Yes. I have shown them to the fishermen this year.

15,718. Had you ever shown them to them before?-Yes. I had not shown them to every man, but I had shown them to the captain, who I expected would have more knowledge of the matter than the other men.

15,719. Do the men generally run accounts at your shop?-Yes; every one of them has an account.

15,720. Do you think they get most of the supplies for their families during the season from your shop?-I think they do. Perhaps there are two or three of them who want to look after their means better than the rest, and who have money lying beside them: these men may perhaps buy goods with cash, and not from our shop; but, as a rule, every one of them gets his supplies from us.

15,721. I believe the majority of your men are not in debt to you at settlement, but have a balance to receive in cash?-Yes. I think there are very few this year, and there were very few last year, who were in debt; and even with these men the amount of debt is very small.

15,722. Do you think the amount of debt was smaller than usual in the two years for which you have given [Page 396] returns, 1867 and 1871, or was it about an average?-That depends altogether upon the fishing. If it is not a total failure, the men are generally all clear of debt; but if a bad year comes in, then we cannot expect that.

15,723. How do you account for the fact that the men almost all take their supplies for the season from your shop in an account with you?-If they have no money, it is not likely that other people will give them supplies, unless they know them very well; and even if they have money, I always find that the men prefer to keep it and come to the shop again and take up goods.

15,724. Do they keep the money in their hands rather than pay for the goods in cash when they get them?-Yes, invariably. I have frequently noticed that practice among the men, and I have spoken to them about it. I have paid as much as £20 to a man at settlement, and then he would come into the shop and take out his outfit. I have asked them why they did so, and told them it would be better for them to pay for their goods with their own money, and then they would know what they were doing.

15,725. What was their answer to that?-They said they preferred to keep the money. It was always in their hand, and the goods could stand over for a year; and perhaps, if the next year's fishing is bad, they think we will allow it to stand for two years rather than push them for the price.

15,726. Would the men not get their goods cheaper if a system existed of paying in cash?-I don't think they would.

15,727. They might not get them cheaper as matters stand at present; but if they were, all willing to pay in cash, would it not be possible for you to give them their goods cheaper than you supply them upon credit?-I would not sell cheaper for cash. The goods are all marked in figures, and when they are paid for in cash they are charged at the same prices as when put down to the account. We have not two prices for our goods.

15,728. What proportion does your cash trade bear to your credit trade?-I should say that it is more than one third, but not one half.

15,729. In the answers you have given, are you speaking of the Faroe fishermen in your employment, or are you also referring to the home fishermen?-I have been speaking of the Faroe fishermen principally.

15,730. Where are the men employed by you in the ling fishing?- Most of them are situated in Sandwick parish.

15,731. Have they also accounts in your shop here?-Most of them have.

15,732. But not to the same extent per man as the Faroe men?- No; but we know exactly how much they are likely to gain, and therefore they are not allowed to exceed a certain sum.

15,733. Do you limit the credits of the men employed in the home fishing?-They limit their credits themselves, because they are grown-up men with families, and they know how far they should run their accounts. Of course, if they were running them further, we would limit them; but we rarely have to do that, because we know they must have the little which they do get.

15,734. Is not that the case with the Faroe fishermen also?-Yes; we limit them too.

15,735. But I understand you to say that the necessity for limiting the home fishermen is greater than in the case of the Faroe fishermen?-Yes.

15,736. Why is that?-Because I consider the home fishing is not so good a fishing: the earnings from it are not so great.

15,737. You said you knew quite well what the men are likely to earn in the ling fishing?-Yes. I can tell from my experience the outside which any ling fisherman can earn.

15,738. Do you know that before the season begins?-Yes. By taking five or six years together, I can see what a man has done in time past, and I don't expect that he will exceed it.

15,739. Do you think that any five years of a fisherman's life will give an average from which you can calculate his probable take for next year?-Yes; I think five years is quite sufficient.

15,740. The variation, I suppose, arises from the nature of the season?-Yes; in stormy weather they cannot go to sea so often as in good seasons, and in other times the fish do not come over the ground so well as they did before. Another thing is the herring fishing, which is connected with the ling fishing, the same boats being used for both purposes.

15,741. Are you engaged in it extensively?-No, not very extensively. I think we have about 10 or 11 boats altogether which fish in the herring fishery.

15,742. Is the engagement of the fishermen in the herring fishing similar to that which exists in the ling fishing?-It is exactly the same.

15,743. They are paid according to the current price at the end of the season, and that price is settled for at the same time as the price for the ling fishing?-Yes; they are both settled for together.

15,744. Do the returns which you have furnished with regard to the home fishing include in any of the answers the earnings from the herring fishing?-Yes; they apply to both ling and herring put together. In fact they apply to everything that the man has earned in the years to which the questions relate.

15,745. Do you think it would be practicable to introduce a cash system into Shetland in place of the annual settlements which now exist?-It would be better for the curer. I don't know if it would be better for the fishermen altogether. I think it would be better for perhaps one half or two thirds of them; but the other third, I am afraid, could not get on at all with the cash system.

15,746. Do you think they would have a difficulty in living over the first half of the year?-Yes; over winter or spring, until the fishing had commenced.

15,747. Do you think it would be impossible for them to get advances during that time in order to keep them going?-If they were to be paid in cash, the fish-curer of course would not give them anything until they brought the fish to him, and other people would be inclined to say the same thing. The man would merely have to be trusted like any other man going into any shop and purchasing goods on his own credit.

15,748. But, except for that difficulty, you would prefer a cash system?-I would.

15,749. Do you think there would be any difficulty in carrying out that system, supposing it were once begun, the men had tided over that transition period?-I think there would be none whatever.

15,750. Would it be possible to pay the men fortnightly or monthly, or at delivery?-I would pay them weekly.

15,751. Would you pay them the whole proceeds of the fish caught during the week?-I would pay them exactly for every tail they landed. I would fix a price with them at first, before they began to the fishing at all; but that price might be altered weekly, according the markets went up or down, the same as in any other trade.

15,752. Do you think the fishermen would agree to that?-We have asked them to agree to it, but they have not done so.

15,753. Was that because they did not like to have the price fixed and thus lose the chance of a rising market?-It was not so much the fixing of the price that they objected to. They would have agreed to that, but some of them who did not know where to find means said, 'What are we to do if we get no cash for a week or two in stormy weather, and we cannot go off; the merchant cannot supply us then.' Of course they could not expect us to supply them with anything after we had commenced with that system.

15,754. If the man was bound to fish for you, would you not be willing to give him supplies?-But they would not be bound to fish at all in that case.

15,755. But the men might be bound to fish for you all the season, although they were paid weekly?-I would not care to engage anybody then for the season. I would have a station at a certain place, [Page 397] with weights there, and I would pay for the fish as I got them.

15,756. Was that the nature of the offer which you made to the fishermen, and which they would not accept?-Yes. We would have no hold over the fishermen in that case at all.

15,757. Would it not be quite practicable to engage the men for the whole season and to pay them weekly?-It would be quite practicable.

15,758. Have you made an offer to them of that description?- Yes; we have made an offer to some fishermen who fish for us now.

15,759. Did you offer to engage them to fish for you for the whole season?-Yes. If they commenced, they would never think of changing.

15,760. In that case would there be any reluctance on the part of the fish-curer to make an advance to the men in a bad week if they were bound to fish for him over the whole season?-I should not care to do it because they might get no more fish after a certain date. At the end of the year the weather is very often such that the men cannot go off for weeks, and we might be advancing on the prospect of what never came, and then the men would be in debt.

15,761. In the case you refer to, were the fishermen not willing to accept your offer?-They were not willing.

15,762. Do you think it would have made any difference in that respect if the offer had been to pay a proportion of the price-say a minimum price of 5s. 6d. or so for ling-and that the balance should be paid according to the current price at the end of the season?-I don't know how that would do. I never spoke about that with the men. I think that would be giving them two chances. It would be giving them the cash, and then giving them the full value of the market after I had paid out my cash so much sooner than I would otherwise have done. When a thing is sold, it is sold, and you take your chance either to lose or to gain, but in that case the fishermen would have the cash in their hands, and they would also have the chance of benefiting by a rise in the price.

15,763. But in other trades, merchants have to lay out their cash in wages and take their chance of a return?-Yes; and I would do the same.

15,764. You would do the same if the men were paid wages, but would you not be prepared to make part of the wages dependent upon the market price of the fish?-No. I hold that in a business transaction, if a party agrees to sell, and you agree to purchase, the one takes his chance, and you take your chance too. That would bring each party to an understanding of how matters stood between them. If it was the practice altogether to purchase the fish green, and to pay for them in money, there would be so many people in competition for them that the men would be sure to get the full value, because, if I gave 6d. more, another man would be sure to give 6d. more if he could afford it, and the men would not lose by that. The fish would go up to the very top price, and the men would reap the advantage.

15,765. Do you think there would be always two or three competing merchants at each station?-Certainly there would. The stations are only half a mile apart; and if one man would not offer the price, another would do so.

15,766. Are your curers paid by weekly wages?-We have one curer paid by weekly wages.

15,767. Do you cure by contract?-Yes, as well as by wage.

15,768. How many people are employed in your curing establishment during the season?-I cannot say, because some go on for a week or two, and others go on at the end of that time; but we will have as high as forty and as low as twenty people who are not off work.

15,769. How are these people paid?-They are paid weekly by a daily wage on Saturday night.

15,770. Do they receive payment of their whole wages in cash?- Every penny.

15,771. Are they paid in cash even if they have had out-takes during the week?-They have no out-takes; we don't give them.

15,772. Is yours the only establishment in Shetland, so far as you know, where that is the practice?-So far as I know, I believe it is; but I am not certain. The only other one where I thought it was done was Leask's; but I happened to be present last day when Mr. Robertson was examined, and I heard him say that they did give credit, which I did not know before.

15,773. Has it been long the practice in your establishment not to give credit to your weekly workers?-It has been the practice for about five years.

15,774. Have you found it to facilitate your transactions very much?-Yes; and it was for that reason we gave up the practice of giving credit. When we first commenced to cure at Bressay, we paid by weekly wages; but the people usually wanted some advances before the Saturday night, and we found in a short time that we were losing money by bad debts while a great deal of time was involved in settling with them on the Saturdays. In fact it took up so much time, and caused so much trouble, that we stopped it altogether.

15,775. How did the bad debts occur?-The girls wanted to take up clothing, and on Saturday night they required food for another week, and we found they took up too much.

15,776. Have you found that the people are now contented with the system which you have introduced?-They are quite contented.

15,777. They don't come to you wanting out-takes?-Never.

15,778. Do you find they get on quite comfortably under the present system?-Yes. What took us hours before to settle, we can settle now in the course of half an hour.

15,779. Don't you think the fishermen might manage to get on under the cash system if it were introduced in the same way that you have done with your workers in the curing establishment?- The fishermen are different thing. The fish have first to be caught before they are paid for; whereas, in the other case, the people are engaged for a weekly wage, which they are certain to get.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLOTTE JOHNSTON, examined.

15,780. You live at Colafirth, near Ollaberry?-Yes.

15,781. How long have you lived there?-I was born at Colafirth, but I came to Lerwick when I was 25 years of age, and I was here for 17 years.

15,782. What did you do in Lerwick?-We kept a few boarders and lodgers.

15,783. What do you do now in Colafirth?-I have been employed scouring or dressing hosiery for the most part, and I generally had to go to one man with it for 10 years, except two months. I commenced on 1st. June 1861, and stopped on 8th April 1871.

15,784. Who did you dress hosiery for?-Chiefly for Mr. Morgan Laurenson, Lochend.

15,785. Do you also knit?-Yes.

15,786. Were you always paid for that in goods?-Yes.

15,787. Did you get them at Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend?- Yes.

15,788. Do you also deal sometimes at the shop at Ollaberry?- Yes.

15,789. Have you an account there?-Yes. I have had a good many accounts. I think the first account I had with Mr. Laurenson was in 1863.

15,790. Were these accounts settled regularly?-No; that was the mistake. I wanted to settle regularly after a few months, when I got home perhaps from 10 to 20 dozen, but he ran on the accounts for perhaps 14 or 15 months, so that I did not know whether I was going ahead or going back.

15,791. This account [showing] was settled on [Page 398] December 31, 1864: 'By contra., £7, 10s. 9d.' What was that due you for?-I had scouring, and I had two tatted rugs, and I knitted cloth.

15,792. I see the account is settled again on March 31, 1866: were you still working at the same things?-Yes.

15,793. The work you did was put at the end of the book?-Yes.

15,794. The book you have shown me is a very carefully kept pass-book, is it not? Is there anything wrong in it?-I was not satisfied, and therefore I kept it.

15,795. Why were you not satisfied with it?-I thought he charged me too much for my groceries, and gave too little for my dozens of scouring.

15,796. Could you not have fixed your price for your scouring yourself?-No, I did not get the chance. He did it all himself, because he had both sides of the question.

15,797. But you had no need to work for a less wage than you thought was fair. Could you not have gone somewhere else with your work?-He always thought I should work to him. I could have gone to many a place else, and got work and been paid for it what I thought was a fair price, but he thought I should still have to stay and work for him.

15,798. Why did he think so?-I suppose he thought he got as well done to by me as he could have got done to him by another.

15,799. But he could not oblige you to do anything you did not choose to do?-When I would refuse to do what he wanted me to do at a time when I was up myself, he would send the things to me in a box to be done.

15,800. But you did not need to dress the goods unless you got what you thought was a fair price for them?-I had to do it, because I had to work for my own maintenance.

15,801. Are the pass-books you have produced the only pass books you have?-Yes.

15,802. The next one is for 1868 and 1869. Is with Mr. Laurenson too?-Yes.

15,803. It is only brought down to October 1869. Have you had no pass-book since then?-No; I wanted to stop work then because I was not well.

15,804. Have you got no supplies from Mr. Laurenson since 1869?-Yes; I have got an account of them. [Produces account.]

15,805. When was the account settled last?-I think it was in April or May 1871; perhaps it may have been in June.

15,806. On May 16, 1870, I see you are charged 8d. for oatmeal: how much was that for?-4 lbs.

15,807. Were you told at the time you got it what the price of it was to be?-No; I did not know at the time how much it was to be.

15,808. On June 27 you are charged 2s. for tea: how much was that?-Half a pound.

15,809. Do you buy 4s. tea at Lochend?-We have bought 5s. tea at Lochend, but that was in 1863.

15,810. Is it very fine tea that you get at 2s. per 1/2 lb.?-We ask for the best that is in the shop.

15,811. Are you quite content with the quality of it?-We must just take it as it is, because we have no means of going anywhere else. I have a sample of it here. [Produces sample of tea.]

15,812. Is that 4s. tea?-No, it is 4s. 4d. tea. That [producing line] is the line they gave us for the goods we got on the 22d of this month. [Witness produces line in the following form

s d By hosiery 2 0 Tea 1 1 0 11 Rice 0 31/2 0 71/2 Sugar 0 21/2 0 5

s d 0 5 Soda 0 1 0 4 Soap 0 11/2 0 21/2 Cloves 0 1 0 11/2 Sugar and tobacco 0 11/2

15,813. Where do you say you got these goods?-At Lochend, from Mr. Laurenson.

15,814. You took him 2s. worth of hosiery?-Yes.

15,815. How much tea did you get for 1s. 1d?-A 1/4 lb.

15,816. How much rice did you get for 31/2 d?-1 lb.

15,817. How much sugar did you get for 21/2 d?-1/4 lb.

15,818. Did you pay him 21/2d. for it?-Yes

15,819. Was that loaf sugar?-Yes; I have a sample of it.

15,820. How much soap did you get?-The soap was 6d. per lb. [The witness here produced a sample of the tea for which she had paid 1s. 1d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the loaf sugar for which she had paid 21/2d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the rice for which she had paid 31/2d. per lb.; a sample of the soap for which she had paid 6d. per lb.; and a sample of flour for which she paid 2d. per lb. These were all docketed by the clerk as having been produced by witness, and purchased from Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend.]

15,821. Did Mr. Laurenson know that you were to bring these goods here?-No.

15,822. Did you get them for your own use?-Yes.

15,823. Were you asked by your summons to bring them here?- Yes.

15,824. Are the articles which you get at the shop at Ollaberry of the same quality as you get at Lochend?-Mr. Irvine, who keeps the shop there, is very kind to me. If I want all cash at any time, he gives it; and Mr. George Henry and Mr. William Smith have also been very kind to me. They would give me cash at any time on my hosiery if I asked for it.

15,825. Are you quite sure that the samples you have produced were got at the same price that is charged for similar goods in your account by Mr. Laurenson?-The prices in the account are those which are charged when the goods are given for work, but the samples I have produced were given in exchange for hosiery.

15,826. Are there two prices for goods at that shop?-Yes, they always charged two prices. When we pay for goods in hosiery, they are always above the price which is charged when cash is paid for them.

15,827. Do you get the goods cheaper when you pay for them by your work, such as you are dressing, than when you are selling hosiery?-Yes. The price is then perhaps 1d. less for the 1/4 lb. of tea.

15,828. How do you know that?-Because I see it marked.

15,829. Was the tea for which you were charged 4s. 4d., when you paid for it by hosiery, the same tea that is charged 4s. in the account?-I think so.

15,830. Are you not sure of it?-I did not see them take it out of the chest. I asked them for the same tea, but I don't know if they gave the same kind.

15,831. But did you ask for the best tea in the shop in both cases?-Yes, I always do.

15,832. Then all you know is that you asked for the best tea in the shop, and it was charged 4s. 4d. when you gave hosiery for it, and it was charged 4s. when it was put into your account for dressing?-That is all I know; but it is a very short time since it was 4s. 4d. It was always 4s. 8d. before.

15,833. I see that on September 29, 1870, you are charged 1s. 6d. for oatmeal: was that a peck?-Yes.

15,834. Were you paying 1s. 6d. for the peck of oatmeal at that time?-Yes; and I suppose there were others paying it as well as me.

15,835. Would you have paid the same for it in any other shop in the neighbourhood?-No. It was dearer [Page 399] than if I had had the cash and gone into another shop to get it.

15,836. What did you say when you went to Mr. Laurenson with the hosiery which you sold to him on the 22d?-It was my sister who went, not me.

15,837. Did she tell you what she said?-I don't think it.

15,838. Are you quite sure your sister did not say what the goods were wanted for?-I told her what goods to ask for, and she got what I told her to get.

15,839. Did you tell her what you were to do with them?-No; I had not got the summons then.

15,840. Would you have got these goods from Mr. Laurenson even although you had not got the summons?-Yes.

15,841. Did you want them for your own use?-Yes. I got them on the Monday, and I did not get the summons until the Tuesday night.

15,842. You have not brought the whole of the goods which you bought then. You have merely brought samples from what you bought?-Yes. I was only told in the summons to bring samples.

15,843. Was the note which you have produced, given in the shop at the time when the goods were bought?-Yes. The shop lad marked down the things on that slip of paper and gave it to my sister, so that she might show me what she had got, and what the prices were.

15,844. You have handed me a letter from one Laurence Clark, dated 25th January 1872, in which he says, 'I have to inform you that I built Miss Charlotte Johnston a house in 1863, and I could not get 1s. from her, because she wrought all her work to Mr. Laurenson, at dressing hosiery, and could not get so much cash as 1s. Therefore I had to take anything that she had to give me, that could do me any good. That kind of payment is not so good as cash.'-For what purpose was this letter written?-It is merely a line from the man who built my house, to show that I could not get cash with which to pay him.

15,845. What did you pay Clark with for building your house?-I got meal, tea, tobacco, sugar, and anything that was in the shop at the times which he required; but I had to reduce the goods to him to cash price, because he would have required his money of me, and I did not have it to give him.

15,846. What was the price charged for building your house altogether?-He charged 15d. a day and his food; I think it came to about £2.

15,847. Did you give him a great deal more in goods, according to the price which was charged to you for them?-Yes. I gave him six yards of cloth for jacket, and other things.

15,848. I see there is a lot of tobacco entered in your book about 1863?-Yes; that was for the men who were working at the house.

15,849. When was the house finished?-It is about eight years in October since it was done.

15,850. I see there is some tobacco in December 1864. Was your house finished before then?-No. It was finished outside, but not inside. We went into it in October, but the windows were not in, and it was two years before I was able to get the flooring put in one of the ends of it.

15,851. Did you give him a little tobacco every now and then until it was finished?-Yes; but he got other things besides tobacco.

15,852. Does that account for the entries of tobacco in August and September 1865 in your book?-Clark was paid by that time, but I had to get my house thatched.

15,853. Was it not to pay him that you got that tobacco?-It was either to pay him or some one else who was working for me. I did not have any money; and when any one did any job for me, I had to pay them in some way or other.

15,854. What did you give them besides tobacco?-I sometimes had a few dishes that they required, and they took them or tea.

15,855. Does that account for there being so many entries of tea in your book?-Yes. I got wool and potatoes for tea.

15,856. At the settlement in July last there was a balance due by you to Mr. Laurenson?-Yes.

15,857. Have you not been working to him since?-I was not able to work.

15,858. About a month ago you got a notice from him that you would be summoned to court unless you paid the balance of your debt, 14s. 31/2d?-Yes; but I did not expect that I should have had anything to pay.

15,859. Did you think the balance was in your favour?-Yes, I expected that.

15,860. But you were running up an account, and you did not know?-Yes, but that was not my blame. I always wanted a settlement; and if he had paid me for my work and my goods, I would not have been due him anything.

15,861. When did you leave home?-I left home on Thursday, and came by the steamboat. I did not go on board of her at Ollaberry until Saturday night, but I had left home two days before, and had to wait for her.

15,862. How old are you?-I was fifty-two in July.

15,863. You are not in good health, and you are not able to walk a long distance?-No. I cannot walk far on account of the rheumatics.

15,864. Have you any idea when you will get home?-No.

15,865. Do you intend to go back by the steamboat if you can?-If the steamboat goes I will go with her but if not, I will have to stay until the packet comes back from Northmaven.

.-I have to give notice that I do not think at present that I shall summon any more witnesses to appear in Shetland; but there will be a meeting at half-past nine o'clock, and if any one wishes to make any statement, or to bring forward any additional evidence, he will then have an opportunity of doing so.

.

LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 1872.

JOHN GATHERER, examined,

15,866. You have been for a long time Collector of Customs at Lerwick?-I have. Before questioning me, I would like if you would allow me to make a brief preliminary remark or two which may render clear any after-evidence which you may call upon me to give. At the time when certain gentlemen tendered their evidence on Shetland truck before the Commission at Edinburgh, I read the brief, necessarily imperfect, and probably inaccurate reports of the same which appeared in the Edinburgh weekly papers. I also read some articles and letters which appeared in the newspapers at the time. About seven months ago I read, as printed I think in a Parliamentary blue book, the report of Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade about the discharge of the Shetland whaling seamen at this port. I have never read the report since. On my return from the, mainland last summer, I found a gentleman had left in my house a copy of the evidence, as [Page 400] printed in a pamphlet form. I think the pamphlet contained a report of Mr. Arthur Hay's adverse evidence; but I had not time to read it before I posted the pamphlet to a friend in the south. I therefore never read his evidence. Beyond a brief newspaper paragraph, which I read recently, I literally know nothing as to the evidence which has been given under the present inquiry. I purposely kept aloof from the same, and from inquiring about the same. I appear here very reluctantly on the present occasion, and, as you are aware, I would not have appeared at all had I not been cited. I have several reasons for this reluctance to appear: I will mention two of them. I entertain very strong opinions condemnatory of the truck system, which I believe prevails all over Shetland; but I do not wish personally to have anything to do with the matter, directly or indirectly. I think it is to be regretted that the question as to the mode of paying the whaling seamen should have been introduced at in the Edinburgh evidence, and complicated by being mixed up with the general question of truck. Both questions, I think, should have been treated separately, as they are the subject of distinct laws and regulations, these laws at the same time being administered by distinct departments. From what I have already stated, you will see that I have a very imperfect recollection of the statements in Mr. Hamilton's report, but I recollect my impression of it at the time when I read it. It was, that the statements in the report were essentially correct representations of what had taken place at one time or other at Lerwick. I have heard that some one has questioned the accuracy of some portions of his report. It might be liable to misconception in this respect. When he inspected my office, we talked generally over the objectionable system that had so long prevailed here in the mode of discharging and paying off the men. A great deal of this must have been patent and notorious to Mr. Hamilton, as a former resident in Shetland, and having subsequent intercourse with the same; and he may not possibly, in his narrative of this to the Board of Trade, have clearly separated some of the past and the suppressed practices of the agents, and those of more recent date. This would the more readily occur, as I have reason to believe that at the time he prepared his report he was not aware that I had over a number of years repeatedly and fully reported the whole matter to the Board of Trade. I have here with me a report relative to the discharge of whaling crews during the last year, and some returns relative to the same, and for previous years, which I hurriedly prepared with the view of sending to the Board of Trade by the mail, which I expected would have sailed yesterday. When preparing the same, I was not expecting I would have to give evidence on the subject. I do not wish to hand in the documents, but I may have occasion to refer to them.

15,867. You showed me these returns last night, and allowed me to see the report which you were sending to the Board of Trade?- I did.

15,868. You are satisfied, I presume, as to the substantial correctness of these returns?-Yes, of my own report and the returns. There is a difficulty in preparing them, from the time that has elapsed; but, as you are aware, I have asked them to verify the accuracy of them at the proper quarter.

15,869. Subject to that verification, you believe these returns to be correct?-Yes. They were prepared by myself and those in any office from the records.

15,870. Therefore, if any application should be made to the Board of Trade afterwards for production of these returns under this Commission, you have no objection to their being regarded as part of your evidence given upon oath?-None; and in continuation of the report, I will refer to the fact that I have been examined before you.

15,871. You are aware that before 1867 the wages of seamen returning from Greenland voyages and landed in Shetland were never paid at the Custom House?-In some cases they were, but very seldom.

15,872. Do you also know from your own observation, and from what you heard at the time, that those seamen were generally running large accounts with the agents, by whom they were secured for these sealing and whaling voyages?-I was aware of that from the statements of the seamen, themselves.

15,873. In numerous cases?-Yes, in numerous cases.

15,874. In almost every case?-I believe so.

15,875. In what way did these statements come to be made to you?-The seamen often came and complained to me that they were not paid off. It may perhaps be proper to explain that at that time, before the special Board of Trade regulations were issued, the masters should have come and paid off the seamen. I may add further, that I am aware that every means was taken by the agents to keep the masters of the Peterhead and Dundee vessels from coming and discharging their men in cases where it would have been attended with no inconvenience.

15,876. In what way did you become aware of that?-I got numbers of letters from the masters stating that they were unable to attend themselves with the men. These letters, so sent to me, were often written by the agents, but signed by the masters.

15,877. Did you know them to be in the handwriting of the agents?-Yes, or of their clerks; and on inquiring at the captains when they came back to engage men again, some of them told me that the agents desired them to do so.

15,878. Not to pay the men?-Yes, not to pay the men. In these letters they stated that they often wished the men to appear, but that they (the men) ran away home; which statement the men subsequently told was incorrect.

15,879. At that time, was the payment of these Greenland seamen at Lerwick subject to the same general regulations which were in force in other parts of the empire?-Yes. There were instructions to shipping masters at that time.

15,880. Were these the same regulations that are still in force in other parts of the kingdom?-Yes.

15,881. They are still in force everywhere, except in Lerwick?- Yes. They are still in force, except in the case of Shetland, Orkney, and the port of Stornoway. I may mention that the procuring of seamen, by agents was at that time, and is still in other places, illegal and punishable by fine-that is, according to the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854. I believe the mode in which they then acted would in the south be treated as crimping; and allow me to say also, that the offence was rendered greater by the fact of the agents being merchants and supplying the men with goods.

15,882. I believe there is a prohibition of that?-Yes; and even licensed agents-that is, individuals licensed by the Board of Trade-are not allowed to be so if they have dealings with the men. That also is under the Act of 1854.

15,883. The regulation at the time you speak of, although it was not observed, was, that the men should be paid before the superintendent?-Yes, then called the shipping master.

15,884. That officer in this case was yourself, as there is no local marine board here?-Yes.

15,885. Why was the regulation not observed?-I am satisfied it was from the agents desiring to secure the profits on the supplies of the men.

15,886. Had you made frequent endeavours to enforce compliance with the Act?-Yes.

15,887. You reported repeatedly to the Board of Trade on the subject?-Yes. I may mention that, when I came here first, there was an attempt on the part of some of the agents to introduce their accounts into the men's accounts of wages, which I checked, and which I believe then led to the shipmasters not appearing.

15,888. That was many years ago?-It is a good many years ago. In some cases these accounts were introduced under the name of ship's accounts.

15,889. Was not that done as late as 1867, after the regulations had been modified? At least I was told that in some cases the agents had introduced their own accounts among the captain's stores in the ship's store-[Page 401]book?-I suspect that was done to a trifling extent, although I should not like to say decidedly that it was done.

15,890. Was there not a clause introduced in 1868 by which that was distinctly prohibited?-There were some defects in the regulations, and they were altered in order to meet the attempts made to evade them.

15,891. Since 1867 has the system been materially changed by the regulations then introduced by the Board of Trade?-Yes, materially.

15,892. The seamen now receive their full payment in cash in your presence?-They do.

15,893. Although not at the time required by the Act?-There is great delay in many cases.

15,894. That is said by several witnesses who have appeared here, to be due to the reluctance of the men to come forward, and their desire to go home and see their friends as soon as they are landed: is that so?-To a great extent, I do not believe that.

15,895. Have you any reasonable doubt that if the men were instructed by the master of the ship and the agents to go at once to the Custom House for payment of their wages, they would obey that direction?-I believe from my knowledge of the men, that if the master and the agent decidedly told them to go to the Custom House after being landed, they would go. There is no doubt that men after a long voyage are naturally anxious to get home; but if they knew they had to be paid then, they would readily accede to the request of the master and the agent.

15,896. Is there any reason you can assign, from your acquaintance with the practice in paying seamen's wages, why the accounts should not be all ready within the time allowed by the law?-My whole experience in the matter points to the fact that the agents are unwilling to have a speedy settlement, and that unless compelled they would never appear at the Custom House at all, or rather I should say at the Mercantile Marine Office.

15,897. Have you had occasion since 1868 to know that the seamen are still incurring large accounts, or considerable accounts, to the agents by whom they are secured?-I have endeavoured not to be cognisant of any of their dealings; but I may add further, that I believe, although the special regulations are outwardly and nominally complied with the agents still secure their accounts from the men for their supplies.

15,898. You think there is still a security-a sort of virtual impledgment of the men's wages although they are nominally paid over in cash?-Yes. It may not be by agreement, but the thing practically exists; and I never heard the agents conceal the fact that the profit on the seamen's wages is the main inducement to them in accepting the agency. That very fact, in my opinion, renders the whole transaction irregular and illegal. Of course, that is a matter of opinion.

15,899. Have you had occasion to interfere while seamen were settling wages with the clerk of the agent, in order to prevent part of the money being retained for the payment of the agent's account?-I may mention that the men, after being settled with at the Custom House generally run down to the agent's office. I know that, because I hear the men speaking about it, and the agents, or rather the agents' clerks, telling them to go down to the place.

15,900. Have you frequently heard the men told to go down?- Yes. The men sometimes blurt it out, and the agents' clerks are not very much satisfied at their doing so; but the whole thing is so well understood, that there is little concealment about it.

15,901. You have frequently heard conversations on the subject, showing that the men were expected to go down at once?-Yes; and some of the clerks had the audacity to attempt to deduct the amount at the office not later than last year.

15,902. Who were these? Are they mentioned in your report?- They are mentioned in my report to the Board of Trade.

15,903. Do you know whether one consequence of the new regulations has been, that the green hands engaged for the settling and whaling voyages are much fewer now than they were before 1867?-I am not aware of the fact. My attention has never been called to it.

15,904. Are you prepared to say that there are not fewer green hands engaged now than there were before 1867?-I cannot say as to that.

15,905. Your observation has not led you to think so?-No. The idea never occurred to me.

15,906. Have you had occasion to know whether the seamen have been told by the masters or the agents since 1868 to attend at the Shipping Office within the time required by law?-The special regulations, unfortunately, do not define any time within which they are to attend, and I have no doubt the agents know that fact.

15,907. The three days do not apply under these regulations?- That is a question that I should not like to give an opinion upon.

15,908. The clause about the three days is quoted in the last head of the regulations?-It is quoted there to show what the general law is.

15,909. But you have a doubt in your own mind as to whether it applies here?-I may at once say that these special regulations were a sort of compromise, and I am so far answerable for their being framed, thinking that they would secure the men their wages. My opinion now is, that it would have been better if the Act had been enforced as it originally stood; and I believe the thing will never be on a satisfactory footing as long as agents who are merchants continue to act as agents.

15,910. Is it not a benefit for the young men who are engaged for the Greenland fishery, to be able to get their outfit from the merchants on credit, as they do?-I think the same thing could be secured by other and legitimate means.

15,911. You know that the men get an advance note for the amount of the first month's wages?-Yes; and after these special regulations came into force, Laurenson & Co. were the first who paid the men over the counter in cash.

15,912. You are speaking now of the advances?-Yes, of the advance note. Messrs. Hay latterly did the same; and Mr. Tait, I think, did so this year for the first time. I recollect asking Mr. Laurenson if he sustained any loss by treating the men with confidence and giving them the money, and to the best of my recollection he said he did not.

15,913. But the outfit requires a larger sum than the advance amounts to in any case?-Yes; but allotment notes would meet that. That would give the relatives of the seamen an opportunity of drawing the money in their absence.

15,914. Are these the only means by which you think a young man without an outfit could provide himself with one?-I think any merchant would give the seamen credit, if they were certain that the present agents did not enjoy the monopoly of giving them their supplies. I may further state, that I believe a gentleman intends to a certain extent to act its agent for some of the vessels this year, to pay the men's advances in cash, and to allow their allotment notes to be paid by a banker or some disinterested party. If that system were introduced, it would knock the whole irregularity on the head. Such is my individual opinion.

15,915. Do you think the gentlemen who now act as agents would have any hesitation, or that any danger would arise to them, in supplying goods to the men, if they were not acting as agents, but merely as merchants?-I think they are not entitled to enjoy a monopoly of the trade.

15,916. But supposing they were not acting its agents at all, but merely as merchants, do you think they would hesitate, or that they would incur any risk by advancing outfits to the men its they now do, but without the security or the quasi security which they now possess?-In that case the men's custom would be distributed over all the town. They would give their custom to the merchants they were partial to, instead of being confined to the shop of the agent who engages them, as at present.

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15,917. But would those who got their custom incur any serious risk in giving them their supplies and outfits on credit?-They would be liable to the same risk that every merchant who embarks in trade is subject to. No man can deal with another on credit without being liable to a risk; but at present the merchants practically enjoy a monopoly of the seamen's supplies.

15,918. The seamen, however, could go to any other shop in town for their supplies if they chose?-At present they could, but I have no doubt they would offend the agent by doing so. If they repudiated his right to secure his own account, that would put an end to the thing, because the main inducement for the agents to act as they do is that they have the supplying of the men with goods.

15,919. Have you anything else to say?-Nothing.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.

15,920. You formerly gave evidence before the Commissioners under the Act of 1870, in Edinburgh?-I did.

15,921. Are there any points on which you wish to give further information?-I merely wish to reaffirm all that I previously stated. From what the people say, the only thing that seems to require explanation, is with regard to the value of the worsted or wool for the making of a shawl.

15,922. You refer to question 44,290: 'I know for a fact that the worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s. They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.; and they get from 25s. to 30s. for it?'-Yes. The question was intended to apply to half square shawls and haps selling at from £1 to 30s., according to the verdancy of the animal that was buying it. It takes about sixteen hundreds to make a hap, and the worsted will be worth. from 2d. to 21/2d. It will take from sixteen to seventeen hundreds to make a half square fine shawl, and the worsted of it will be worth about 4d.; and these shawls are sold at from 18s. to 30s., according as customers can be got for them.

15,923. Are haps often sold at so high a price as 30s?-No, not haps; they are sold up to about £1. That has been my experience. I may say that I have been in shops, when the first question asked before a price was stated was, whether the article was for the person's self or for a stranger; that is to say, was it to be sold to a person in the country, or was it to go away outside, because in these cases they have two different prices. I have likewise been in shops when, if there were any of the knitting girls there selling shawls or other articles, the merchant would take very good care to state the price to his other customers in the lowest possible voice, and at the farthest possible distance from these girls; and I have been repeatedly told that they will occasionally put the price upon a piece of paper, so as not to let the knitters hear it. That I say in contradiction to the assertion which is made, that the merchants sell the hosiery articles at the same price as that at which they nominally buy them. Again, I want to point out that in most cases all the worsted that the hosiery merchants in Lerwick dealt in up to the last year was bought from the country merchants for goods, and therefore that even that nominal value did not represent the true value of the articles. I produce an account containing transactions amounting to £146; it is all balanced by goods, which were entirely worsted, up to £1, 3s. 10d. The only item of cash I find in the account is 15s. Lately, however, they have been obliged and are ready to buy the worsted for cash, because they cannot do without it, and the supply of worsted is decreasing.

15,924. You are speaking of Shetland worsted?-Yes. I may mention also that that estimate of the value of the worsted for a shawl was intended by me to embrace the Yorkshire worsted, or what they call the Pyrenees, although I don't suppose either the worsted or the wool ever saw the Pyrenees: it is made in Yorkshire.

15,925. Are you speaking, in both these cases of haps and of shawls, of articles made of Shetland worsted?-All the haps are made from Shetland worsted, the coarser worsted.

15,926. You said in that answer to which you have referred, 'They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in goods that will be about 4s.:' is not that a little too strong?-I don't think it.

15,927. That assumes that the charge for the goods is about 100 per cent. above the cost price, or rather it assumes that it is 100 per cent. above the price at which the worker of the shawl ought to get these goods, which would not be the cost price, but the retail price?-No, I don't mean that. I mean to say that if these merchants were to go to the proper market, they could buy their goods at such a rate that they would be able to sell them at 100 per cent. profit; but I know that a great many of these merchants go to second-hand houses to buy. Whether it is for the object of getting long credits, or what it is, I don't know; but I know from the parties who come here that a great many of them are not first-class houses.

15,928. Have you any personal knowledge as to the wholesale houses with which these merchants deal for their goods?-Do you mean, do I know who comes down here?

15,929. Yes?-Yes, I do.

15,930. From what source is your knowledge derived?-From their travellers, and from seeing their goods coming down.

15,931. You are acquainted with the travellers of those houses?- Most assuredly.

15,932. And you know that they are not wholesale houses in the strict sense of the term, but middle-men?-Exactly. I say that the merchants here could go to much better quarters for their goods if they were to put their business on a proper footing. Wholesale houses in Aberdeen are not in the same position as wholesale houses in London.

15,933. Do London houses send travellers here?-No; but if the merchants' business was on a proper foundation they could get introductions to these houses, and do their business at a better rate.

15,934. Is there any other point on which you wish to make an addition or explanation upon your former evidence?-It has been generally remarked by fishcurers, that one reason why they could not give up the present system of dealing with their men was because the men would not have the means of getting boats and fittings for the fishing, whilst at the same time the principal fish-curers assert that they do pay enormous sums of money to the men. For instance, I have seen from the papers that it has been stated by Messrs. Hay & Co. that in the island of Whalsay alone they paid £1300 last year, whilst the total value of the boats and fishing gear there cannot be over £400. Therefore it is absurd to say that the men would not be able to supply themselves with boats. Again, it has been stated and maintained that the Shetland men as a race are intelligent, and in one sense they are. Indeed their intelligence is so acute that the employers are ashamed, as I have no doubt you have found in the evidence, to give them accounts. They are rather afraid that their acuteness would discover too much in them, but in addition to that they tell you it would be impossible for the men to divide the produce of the fishing among themselves if it was paid in cash at the station, because it would require a man conversant with accounts; so that it is an absurdity to say that they are an intelligent race, and yet cannot adjust the proportions which would go to the different men in a boat's crew if they were paid in cash.

15,935. Probably they would be sufficiently acute to adjust their accounts if they were accustomed to do so like other people in other parts of the world?-I say they are quite capable of doing that. They are quite capable of looking after their own accounts if these were [Page 403] produced to them. There is another thing I should like to point out with regard to the agriculture of Shetland as compared with that of other places. I am sorry I have come away without the statistics, but if you look into them you will find that we have a much larger number of stock in Shetland with a rental of only £30,000, than Orkney with a rental of £60,000, from which I deduce that it is a far greater object to the merchants and proprietors here to continue the people as fishers upon the present system, than to put the land upon a legitimate and proper footing.

15,936. In what way do you arrive at that inference?-The land is under-rented for the purpose of binding the men to continue as fishermen for their employers. A great deal of the land is in outsets, and these outsets were originally set at the mere interest upon the house that was built, or upon any enclosures that were made. That was done for the purpose of procuring extra fishermen, and the system has been continued to this day. By looking at the valuation roll, you would find an immense difference between the rents of merks land and the rents of outsets.

15,937. I don't suppose that any proprietor who employs his men in fishing would deny that if he ceased to do so the rents of his tenants must be raised?-I rather think they do deny that.

15,938. I have had admissions made to that effect in the evidence which has been given before me?-I have heard none of the evidence that has been taken; but I am glad to hear that they are thinking of turning over a new leaf, and admitting even that they are wrong.

15,939. I don't say it has been a general admission, but that admission has been made by one proprietor at least?-I say that it ought to be a general admission. Another thing I would mention is, that the people with their present beliefs are unfortunately too subservient to come forward and frankly give full evidence upon the matter, and I would give an instance of the sub-serviency and illiterateness that prevails among them. I received the other day a report from two men, in which they use such language as 'resources of science and art,' and one of them was styled the superintendent, and the other the manager, of the working department of the largest establishment in this place for the manufacture of blubber. One of these men could hardly sign his own name, while the other had to sign with cross. That fact I mention in order to show that these men are under the belief that they are bound to do in most cases as their superiors may dictate to them.

15,940. Has it come within your knowledge that many people have been afraid to come forward and give evidence before this Commission?-Yes; a great many people have told me they would not do it.

15,941. Do you refer to fishermen?-To fishermen and to females too. I may mention also that I have been instrumental in starting a large company here upon the limited liability principle, the first object of which is stated to be to afford to the people of Shetland an opportunity of prosecuting their fishings free from the truck system.

15,942. Is that a company for prosecuting the Faroe fishing or the ling fishing?-It is to be for all. It is to commence this year with the Faroe fishing.

15,943. Did you send out any vessels in 1871?-No, we did not begin in 1871, except with a single vessel in which I was interested, and which we sent out to see what we could do with it.

15,944. Did that vessel belong to the company?-No, not to this company. The company has been formed in Glasgow, of gentlemen who are desirous of putting down this iniquitous system.

15,945. Do you propose to carry on the fishing with out any shop?-Yes.

15,946. And to pay all in cash?-Yes.

15,947. Do you propose to pay by annual settlements?-The men still prefer going upon the old system of payments; but in order to provide for their outfit, as they call it, we propose to pay it in cash the moment the vessel leaves the harbour with them on board, and we intend to afford to their families an advance of what is fair and reasonable to keep them while the men are away. We are quite prepared to run all that risk against a bad fishing, and we will pay them the balance in cash at any moment they choose after they come home.

15,948. Are the advances you are to make to be in cash also?- Yes; they are to be in cash, not in goods.

15,949. Do you think it will be possible for the fishing business to be conducted, perhaps not immediately, but shortly after this, without the fishermen requiring advances either in cash or goods?-Certainly; and I say that if that system could be adopted now it could be carried on, looking to the amount of money that has been accumulated on deposit by the people in the country generally.

15,950. Then why do you propose in your enterprise to make advances in cash?-Just to suit the humour of the people, until they come to see for themselves that such advances are not necessary.

15,951. I suppose you want to begin cautiously?-We do, and to work them into the system gradually. In fact we wish them eventually to take shares in these vessels, and to get vessels and boats for themselves.

15,952. But in the arrangement you propose, so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned, the men will be sharesmen?-They are sharesmen in the produce, but they have no shares in the vessel; but I propose that they should eventually have an interest in the vessel, and we are quite willing to give them an interest in any vessel they choose. We are also desirous to get better boats for them in the ling fishing. It has been stated likewise that the people could not get their supplies at the stations if there was a cash system, as there would not be shops there, because the whole amount that is sold at the stations in the course of a year is merely nominal; and to show that, it is mentioned that it is usually an ordinary splitter who attends to the shop, or the fish factor. That man is not in the shop any time during the rest of the year, and it is said that there is only a very limited amount of goods sent there, being intended only for the supply of the men when they go out to sea. If that is the case, it would be no great hardship if these goods were not there, but I say that they would be there.

15,953. Do you think the men could easily take their own supplies with them?-Quite easily; and wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered. If there is money to be got there, you will be sure to find shops there too.

15,954. In what way were the men paid who went to the Faroe fishing in your vessel last year?-They were paid by shares the same as they had hitherto been, and this [producing it] is a copy of their settlement. The name of the vessel is the 'Lily of the Valley.'

15,955. I see that this account of the settlement is drawn up in the form which is ordinarily used in Shetland?-I don't know, but I suppose it is.

15,956. It shows the amount of fish caught, and then the deductions, and finally the division?-Yes.

15,957. I see no deduction for commission?-There is no commision.

15,958. That is usually, but not universally, taken by the owner?- I don't know why it should be. I think it is hardly fair if the men are doing their duty that the owner should not do his also, and take the fish to the best market.

15,959. You think the owner should be considered to be paid for that by his share of the produce?-I think so. I also produce a copy of our account for the expense of salt and curing.

15,960. Does this show the actual expenditure incurred by you in curing the fish brought in by the vessel?-Yes.

15,961. Was it arranged with the men that they should be charged only the actual expense incurred for salt and curing, and not an estimate according to the usual system?-Yes.

15,962. Is it not usual in Shetland that the expense of curing is deducted according to an estimate of 47s. 6d. and 50s., or 52s. 6d., as the case may be?-No; I understand it is the cost that is charged. The agreement [Page 404] with our men was that they were to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, salt, etc., and master's premium 10s. per ton, and mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and that they should receive 8 lbs. weight of bread per man per week, and also 9d. per score to each man for all the fish caught by him, one half to be paid by the owners, and the other half by the crew.

15,963. What was the return to the owners upon their share of that vessel last year?-22 per cent.

15,964. The total share payable to each man is shown in the account you have produced?-Yes. Their half share amounted to £188, 9s. 6d., but then they had wages in the succeeding voyage as specified in the agreement.

15,965. Is there any other point on which you wish to make any additional remark?-I may say that when I was south lately, I saw letters from some of the whaling agents here, which plainly indicated that the commission of 21/2 per cent. paid to them for the engagement of seamen for the seal and whale fishing, would not, in their opinion, afford sufficient remuneration to them.

15,966. Have you got these letters?-No; but I saw them, and I was asked by the owners in the south if I could put them in the way of getting an agent who would consider himself sufficiently remunerated by that commission. I was first asked if I considered 21/2 per cent. paid them for their trouble. I said certainly; and I then engaged with Mr. Scott in Lerwick to act as agent for these vessels. Their previous agents did not consider that they would be remunerated sufficiently unless they got a full opportunity of trading with the men.

15,967. Is Mr. Scott to act as agent without having any opportunity of trading with the men?-Yes. The advance will be paid in cash at the time of the engagement, and the allotment notes will be paid at the bank.

15,968. Did you make that arrangement in consequence of what the shipowners in the south said to you?-Yes. That is an experiment which Mr. Scott is about to make; but there is no doubt about the result of it, because 21/2 per cent. is a very liberal commission for doing little or nothing.

15,969. Are you now in the management of the chromate of iron quarries in Unst?-Yes.

15,970. I understand the wages there are not paid in truck?-No; they have not been since I had anything to do with the quarries.

15,971. Are you aware that that was the case formerly-Yes; it was truck from beginning to end.

15,972. Did you find that to be the case when you undertook the management of the quarries?-Yes; after I had commenced the thing I was asked by the man who had previously trucked them if I would allow the workmen to be settled with in the office, so that they could get them into the shop immediately afterwards.

15,973. In what capacity had that person trucked them? Was he secretary or manager for the company?-They had a sort of anomalies there for managing the company. This one was supposed to be paymaster, and then they had a manager. The paymaster was a director, and he had a shop too.

15,974. Did you ascertain that the men had been paid at that shop by lines or tickets?-There was no payment at all. Their accounts were adjusted from time to time, the amount of goods which they had got was taken off, and the balance was handed to them. It was done openly and above-board; the man himself told me about it.

15,975. But accounts are always kept and settled in Shetland without any attempt of concealment?-I think so. I never had any difficulty in discovering it. I may add further, from my experience as chairman of three parochial boards, that since the system of truck and paying with lines was done away with in the parishes I am connected with, the rates have been reduced considerably.

15,976. How do you account for that?-Because the people have got money. It used to be considered an acknowledged fact, that for a pauper's shilling, if they brought a shilling to the shop, they would get 14d. worth of goods. The money was able to go much further, because there was wholesome competition between the different merchants to get a share of the money.

15,977. I understand Major Cameron's tenants throughout Shetland are at liberty to fish for any fish-curer they please?- Yes, for any one they please.

15,978. I think in your previous evidence you referred to the lease to Spence & Co. in Unst, and expressed a sort of regret that it had ended in a monopoly?-Yes.

15,979. There has been a good deal of evidence given before me to the effect that a monopoly of that kind is beneficial, and that it is wholesome, mainly in preventing small shops from springing up in large numbers, and that it requires a large capitalist to develop the resources of the country properly: is that so?-That is perfectly true: but a merchant or any one who says that should recollect that except for the capital of the poor fishermen they could not carry on the business themselves.

15,980. Are you aware whether the fish-merchants generally are men of large capital?-I should say that they cannot be, from this fact, that they would readily pay the men in cash which they get, and which in the month of August must amount to about £40,000 due to the men, if they had it.

15,981. Is that merely an inference which you draw from the practice which prevails?-Yes.

15,982. But have you any personal knowledge on the subject?- Yes. Perhaps it would not be fair to mention the names of the firms, but I know several firms who have commenced within the last few years with no capital, and who are carrying on a business which in the south would require an enormous capital. I know it is alleged by merchants generally that they do not consider they are trading upon the poor man's capital.

15,983. I suppose you speak of the merchants trading upon the poor man's capital, in this sense, that they do not pay for the fish which is in their hands until about the time when they get their returns?-Exactly; that they neither are merchants nor agents. They are not merchants, because they do not pay the men for the raw material, and they are not agents, because they do not give them honestly their account sales.

15,984. Are you aware of the practice existing in Shetland, that the proprietors in many cases receive their rents from the fish-curers?-Yes. During the first year or two that I settled for Major Cameron, I got many cheques from the fish-curers.

15,985. Was that for the whole amount of rent due by a number of fishermen?-Yes, either that, or each man would bring his separate cheque; but in a great many cases in Shetland the fish-curer just pays it slump, or what is called guarantees it.

15,986. That is not an actual guarantee; it is merely an arrangement by which the fisherman, for the convenience of all parties, is debited in the fish-curer's book with the amount of rent which the fish-curer pays to the landlord?- True; but in it great many cases, as I have previously stated, I think there is a chronic balance against the men, which balance, I think, if looked into, would generally be found to be composed to a great extent of advances of rent for the next year, which practically thirls the men on to them, but which has no right to go through their books at all.

15,987. Are you aware whether the fish-curer is induced to make that advance of rent by the consideration that he holds his own premises from the landlord, and might be charged a higher rent, or lose some other advantage, if he did not do so?-Most assuredly. There is no doubt that, if they were thrown open, the rents of the business premises would double themselves throughout the country.

15,988. Have you known any instance in which the landlord favoured the merchant so far as to refuse to allow other businesses to be begun upon his estates?-Yes.

15,989. Had that happened in the case of Major Cameron's estates?-Not so far as I know, and no one [Page 405] has ever asked it. In fact we have business premises lying unlet just now.

15,990. Do you know that that has happened elsewhere?-I do; in more cases than one.

15,991. Is it not virtually the case in Unst, that no premises are allowed there except those of Spence Co.?-I don't know about that, because Spence & Co.'s principal premises are upon Henderson's property.

15,992. Were you not aware of Spence & Co. removing a merchant who had premises on the property of Major Cameron, which was under tack to them?-No; I think that was on a neighbouring property.

15,993. Was that the case of a house that was shifted bodily across the road?-It was not shifted bodily. The man put up a new place altogether.

15,994. Was that on Major Cameron's property?-No; neither in the one case nor in the other. I think he came off the Greenfield property, and he built a place upon the Earl of Zetland's lands.

15,995. Was there no one removed from Major Cameron's property in the neighbourhood of Uyea Sound, by Spence & Co.?-I don't think there was. There was a man there with a lease of land who kicked up a row with us about a pier and other things of kind, whose nephew, under his name was keeping a shop, and we distinctly told him that he must turn his attention to something else; that if he would use the house for a lodging-house or something of that kind he could stay, but that we would not allow him to do it under these circumstances.

15,996. Did he put up a shop elsewhere?-Yes. They built a new place to the west of Baltasound.

15,997. What were their names?-Isbister. If I am not misinformed, I think these parties are still carrying on the shop at Uyea Sound, conducted by a man Donald Johnston; at least I saw a boatload of goods coming ashore there, and on inquiry I was told they were for Isbister's shop.

15,998. Do you think such an arrangement as you have made with Spence & Co. is in any sense different as respects the interest of the men from that by which a proprietor cures himself, and employs his own tenants in the fishing?-In the way it is carried out, I don't think there is very much difference; but had it been carried out in the way that was intended and promised, it would have been very different. You must bear in mind that I don't think it is for the interests of the working people in Shetland to have scattald, and therefore it was intended that each man should have a farm for himself, and a lease of it, and they have a right to that under the lease to Spence & Co. Had they stuck to that, or were they to stick to that, they would be quite independent; but as they persist in believing that the scattalds are for their benefit, and as Spence & Co. have a right to these scattalds, it practically binds them to the merchants.

15,999. I understand that Spence & Co, from their lease, have absolute power to remove tenants if they don't comply with the rules and regulations which, are appended to the lease?-I don't think so, not without our sanction. I know that we don't think so.

16,000. That, if it is so, would give them an absolute power to compel the men to fish for them, just as much as when a landlord intimates to his tenants that they must fish for his tacksman on pain of removal. Assuming that they have that power, is not that the effect of it?-Assuming that they have that power, that would be the effect of it, but I don't think they have that power. It was never intended that they should have it, and I don't think they have it. I hold that we alone have power to turn off the tenants, and under the lease we only have power to bring in tenants.

16,001. The effect of the lease and the regulations appended to it, so far as I have been able to examine it, appears to be, that if a sub-tenant fails to comply with the rules and regulations appended to the lease, he may be removed by the lessee?-No, we quite deny that.

16,002. How do you reserve power under the lease to deal with the sub-tenant who does not comply with the rules?-We exclude assignees and sub-tenants, except as after-mentioned.

16,003. Perhaps the shortest way of dealing with that matter will be, that I should have an opportunity of reading the lease or it copy of it at leisure?-Certainly, but I may say decidedly that it was not intended that Spence & Co. should have such a power, and it is not being acted on, because we are now in process of warning four or five tenants who will not come under the rules. It was intended distinctly that we reserved all our present tenants, irrespective of Spence & Co. altogether.

16,004. But are not the powers with which Spence & Co. are invested with regard to peats and other matters, really such as to compel the tenants to remove if they do not comply with the rules?-No. The peats are reserved in our hands, for the purpose of compelling them to take care of the peat-banks.

16,005. That is not Mr. Sandison's reading of the lease?-I cannot help Mr. Sandison's reading of it but I am certain that it is the correct reading, from the fact that there was a very considerable correspondence carried on about Spence & Co. being allowed to put in certain tenants during the first two or three years of their lease. They have only right to put in new tenants within a certain time and after that they have no right to put anybody into a vacant farm.

16,006. You were speaking of poor-rates: do you think there has been no reduction of poor-rates in Shetland from any other cause than the reduction of truck?-Not in my opinion.

16,007. Have there not been better crops and better seasons lately?-Yes, but that does not reduce the number of paupers. The number of paupers has been increased rather than reduced.

16,008. But if there are good seasons with regard to crops and fishings, may not a greater number of paupers be maintained by their own friends, and fewer people fall upon the rates?-That might be so; but if the same number of paupers are on the roll, and if the allowances are practically the same, it must follow that the rates should be stationary.

16,009. Your statement is that the number of paupers has not been reduced?-It has not been reduced. It has been rather increased. I may mention that in Unst there has been a decrease from deaths, but not anything to account for a reduction of the rates from 8s. to 2s. 6d.

16,010. With regard to the price of shawls, when you spoke of a shawl being worth 25s. or 30s., did that apply to the merchants who purchase shawls for goods, or to private dealers?-I referred to what the shawls would be sold for to private individuals in the town.

16,011. The prices which you name for shawls are not the prices that were paid by merchants?-No; but with regard to that I may mention that I have heard merchants from the south say that when they sold goods to merchants here, in a great many cases they got goods back. There is a man named Saint in Aberdeen who deals considerably with the merchants here, and perhaps he would be able to give evidence as to whether he does not prefer to pay in cash, but that to give goods is insisted upon by the merchants here.

16,012. Did you mean to say in an earlier part of your evidence that the merchants here get supplies of goods mostly from second-hand houses?-I mean to say that they could get them from better houses if they chose.

16,013. Would you say that J. & R. Morley & Co.; Copestake, Moore, & Co.; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Fletcher & Sons, Manchester; J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Mann, Byars, & Co. Glasgow; George Peek, Manchester, Vesey & Sons, London; Allan & French, London, were second-class houses?-No; but I should like to know the extent of business which the merchants here do with them, and whether they deal wholesale with them or not.

16,014. Would you be surprised to hear that Shetland merchants engaged in the hosiery trade obtain the bulk of their goods from such houses as these?-I should say that perhaps that was the truth, but I should like to know the whole truth about the matter, because [Page 406] these houses, large as they may be, have certain clearances occasionally, which it may suit a people such as those of Shetland to take. I know at least one instance of a large quantity of that class of goods coming down in the steamer, and being damaged by a cask of porter being burst upon them, and a claim was made upon the Leith and Clyde Shipping Co. for something like 50 per cent. of profit, because it was a job lot which had been bought from big houses of that kind.

16,015. But I suppose there are job lots bought by almost every house at times?-Yes, but that has been the system here; in fact it has been stated by people in these big businesses, that they did get rid of their over-season's goods in that way.

16,016. I suppose over-season's goods come to all parts of the rural districts of Scotland?-I am not aware of that, but they may do so.

16,017. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing that I am aware of.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLES OLLASON, examined.

16,018. You are a member of the firm of Charles Ollason & Son, bootmakers, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,019. Did you receive that letter [showing] from Mr. Williamson?-Yes. [The following letter was put in:-] 'Haggersta, Jan. 20th 71.' 'Messrs. Charles Ollason & Son. 'Dear Sirs,-I am sorry to say that by some misunderstanding I did not get the wages that I expected to get; for instead of a 3/4th I only got a 1/2 share, and therefore instead of £18 I only got £12. I was due Mr. Stove £4 from the year that I was at the fishing from him, and he handed in that bill against me to Mr. Irvine, who retained that for him, so in that way I had nothing to get at all. Therefore I am sorry to say that I cannot pay the 15s. that I am due you for the boots that I got in August, and I beg that you will wait till the turn of the season, and then I hope that I will be able to pay you, for I am signed to go in the 'Olive' as a sharesman. If you cannot wait till then, you will be so good as to let me know. You will make out a bill, and I will sign it and hand it in to Mr. Irvine, and let it be marked against me, and then you will be sure of your money then-for it is entirely out of my power to pay you any other way just now. I beg that you will comply with my request, as I can't do better.-Your humble Debtor,

'M. Williamson, 'Haggersta, 'Whiteness.'

16,020. Was that letter written to you by him in answer to a demand for payment of your account?-Yes.

16,021. Were you surprised to get a letter of that kind explaining the reasons why your account was not paid?-We were not very much surprised, for we believed the facts to be just as he stated them.

16,022. Did you think it a reasonable enough explanation he was not able to pay you?-Yes; it was reasonable enough for him.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.

16,023. I now show you Messrs. Hay & Co.'s store ledger, kept by William Halcrow, their storekeeper here: was Halcrow the party referred to in the report which you mentioned in your evidence?- If Messrs. Hay & Co. say he is their superintendent, he is the same individual.

16,024. Is Messrs. Hay & Co.'s the largest establishment of that kind in Lerwick?-I understand so.

16,025. And the party mentioned in the report describes himself as superintendent of the largest establishment in this place?-Yes, general superintendent, and the other is described as the manager of the working department. The general superintendent is the one who signs his name, and the other is the one who signs with a cross, and they are the parties who speak about the resources of science and art.

16,026. Is the book I now show you kept in a fair enough mercantile hand?-Fair enough.

16,027. Would, you be surprised to hear that it was kept by William Halcrow?-I would not. The reason why I mentioned this matter at all was to show the subserviency of the people in Shetland,-that they are accustomed to do what they are bidden,- that they are ready to sign their names to what they really cannot understand, if they think it is doing a favour to any one above them.

16,028. Do you think Halcrow was incapable of understanding such a phrase as the resources of science and art?-I think so, as it is applied here; because I may mention that in the correspondence which passed before, and which refers to the same parties, they said they did not know that whales had skins.

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ARTHUR LAURENSON, recalled.

16,029. I understand you have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr. Walker with regard to the merchants in Lerwick, and that you wish to make some explanation in regard to it?-I have not heard it, but the substance of it has been reported to me since I entered the room. I have been told that he said that the merchants in Lerwick buy from second-class houses, and pay for their goods by consignments of hosiery. I wish to refute that, so far as I am concerned; and I refer to Messrs. J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; John Clapperton & Co., Glasgow, and Geo. Peek & Co., Manchester, as a proof that I deal with first-class houses.

16,030. Are these the only houses with which you deal?-No; I deal with a good many more.

16,031. Are there any houses from which you get portions of your goods which might be characterized as second-class houses?-No.

16,032. Is it the case that you ever get job lots or over-seasons goods?-Never, unless in the ordinary way of trade. Perhaps an article may be shown to me by a traveller occasionally, but only one pattern out of fifty which may be described as a job lot.

16,033. You do not get in a larger proportion of these goods than other dealers in other country towns?-No; I never bought a job lot altogether in my life. We never pay by consignments of hosiery.

16,034. Is there anything further you wish to state?-At the close of my last examination I wished to make objection to the credibility of a witness. I was asked to state it privately, and I now hand in paper with regard to it. [Produces paper.]

Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

16,035. Do you wish to concur with Mr. Laurenson in the statement which he has now made?-Yes. The only difference is that I deal with more houses in London.

16,036. The list of houses which I read from in putting a question to Mr. Walker was furnished by you?-Yes; but it does not include one half of the houses that I deal with. I wish also to say that I have now been 25 years in business, and I never to this day exchanged 2d. worth of hosiery goods for goods in the [Page 407] south. I do not mean to say that I have not bought hosiery goods for goods here, but I have never exchanged them in the south for other goods.*

16,037. Does any one present wish to give any further evidence?- [No answer.] Then I adjourn this inquiry. I have to think the Commissioners of Supply for the use of this room, which they have kindly furnished to me; and I have also to return my thanks to all parties in Shetland with whom I have met, for the courtesy which I have received from them, and for the readiness which they have shown in furnishing me with all information which I required.

*Mr. Linklater also, on the same day, sent the following letter to the Commissioner, referring to the same subject:-

LERWICK, 31st January 1872. W. GUTHRIE, Esq.

Sir,-I am sorry that I was absent when Mr. Walker in his evidence before you today stated, as I have been told, that the merchants here bartered their goods in exchange for drapery goods from second-class warehouses in the south. I beg to state that I have been thirty-seven years in business here, and have paid cash for all the goods ever I bought, and beg to refer you to the following houses from whom I get my goods.-I am, sir, yours very respectfully,

ROBERT LINKLATER.

J. & W. Campbell & Co., Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Anderson & Co., Glasgow; J. Clapperton & Co., Glasgow; Chamberlain & Birrell, Glasgow; John Howell & Co., St. Paul s, London; Fandel, Phillips, & Co., Newgate Street, London; Hutton & Co., Newgate Street, London; D. Hyam, Houndsditch, London; Copestake, Moore, & Co., London; George Peek & Co, Manchester; Hall, Russell, & Co., Bradford.

LERWICK: MONDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1872

-MR GUTHRIE.

<Mr. Guthrie>.-As I have been detained here longer than I expected, owing to the state of the weather, I have held this sitting to-day in order to examine some witnesses who were formerly suggested to me by gentlemen in Lerwick, and whom I was not able to call before closing the previous sittings, and also some others who I think may be useful in supplementing the evidence already taken.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. JOAN WINWICK or FORDYCE, examined.

16,038. Do you live in Chromate Lane, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,039. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is a pensioner. He was a carpenter to trade, but he does nothing now.

16,040. Do you knit worsted work?-Yes, I knit, but for myself only. I knit with my own wool, and sell the goods.

16,041. Have you never knitted with merchants' wool?-No.

16,042. To whom do you generally sell your hosiery?-I always sold it to Mr. Robert Sinclair since he became a merchant. I always knit haps or coarse shawls.

16,043. What do you pay for the worsted which you use in knitting?-When I buy the worsted it is 2d. per hundred; but when I buy the wool and spin it myself, it comes to be a great deal dearer. We cannot get proper worsted to buy, and we have to manufacture it with our own hands.

16,044. Is the worsted which you buy at 2d. per hundred the kind which you use for a hap of ordinary quality?-Yes.

16,045. At what price do you sell a hap two yards in size made of that worsted?-Perhaps about 10s.

16,046. Have you any of these haps in hand just now?-No.

16,047. Have you sold any lately?-No; I have not sold any this winter. I have not been knitting this winter to sell. I have just been doing things for my own family.

16,048. What else have you knitted besides haps?-I have knitted nothing but haps for a good while. Since I could not see to do finer work I have been spinning worsted and making frocks for my husband, and stockings and things of that sort.

16,049. Where do you buy your worsted?-I have not bought any worsted for a long time. I always bought the wool and spun it myself, because I could not get the worsted to buy.

16,050. Where did you buy your wool?-I buy skins from the women who sell the sheep, and get the wool ru'ed off the sheep when they are killed.

16,051. Are there women who go about and sell wool in that way?-They sell mutton, but they will sell wool to us when we go to their houses and ask them for it.

16,052. Do these women buy the whole sheep?-Yes, they buy them alive; and when they have killed them, they sell the mutton to any person in the town who will buy it.

16,053. Are there many such women?-I suppose there are a few, but I cannot say how many.

16,054. Is that the way in which many people get their supply of wool for spinning?-I think it is, because we cannot get wool in any other way.

16,055. How much wool do you buy at a time?-I have bought 10s. or 12s. worth at a time,-just the skin as I could get it.

16,056. How much do you think you pay for the wool per lb. in that way?-I have seen it cost me 2s. and 16d. and 18d.; but it has been higher of late since the wool became so dear.

16,057. Is not that a very high price for it?-Yes.

16,058. Is it not more commonly about 1s. per lb.?-Yes. When I came to Lerwick it was 1s., 8d., and 6d.

16,059. Is it not still to be got at 1s. per lb.?-Perhaps it may be in country places, where they have plenty of it; but I cannot get it for 1s. unless it is very coarse, and a great deal of refuse in it.

16,060. How much wool does it take to make a hap two yards square?-About 2 lbs. That would be 16 hundreds or cuts.

16,061. Are you speaking all this time of a hap of the ordinary quality?-Yes, the ordinary quality.

16,062. Do you know what a woman gets for knitting a hap of that kind when it is given out?-I cannot say exactly; but I think they give some knitters for plain work only 2d. per hundred, or perhaps a little more. That is what they say they get for knitting plain work.

16,063. Do they count the payment of the knitting by hundreds?-I suppose some of them do, but I have never put out any to knit myself, or taken any in to knit.

16,064. Then for a hap like that, if there were 16 hundreds in it, the knitter would get only 2s. 8d. for the knitting?-Yes; but I think that for knitting borders they get a little more. It is for plain frocks that they say they get 2d. per hundred.

16,065. Are you always paid in goods for your work?-Mr. Sinclair always gave me what I asked. When I asked a little money I got it, and when I required goods for my family, such as soap, soda, or tea, I got them too.

16,066. But I suppose it was understood that you were to be paid in goods?-Yes, that was the custom of the place; but he always trusted me with anything I wanted, if I happened to be due him something at times.

[Page 408]

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. ROSINA DUNCAN or SMITH, examined.

16,067. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,068. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is turning an old man now, but he was at the sea at one time.

16,069. Has he got a pension?-No.

16,070. Do you employ yourself in knitting?-I knit a little for my own family.

16,071. Have you given up knitting for other people-Yes.

16,072. Did you knit for Mr. Sinclair at one time?-I sold him a few haps last year.

16,073. Did you sell him a great number before that-I did not; but when I had any little things I sold them to Mr. Joseph Leask, and got money articles for them.

16,074. Did you ever sell so many as half a dozen to Sinclair?-I cannot say, for I did not count them. The last one I sold was to him.

16,075. What did you get for it?-12s.

16,076. How much wool was in it?-I cannot say, for I spun it myself, and wrought it until it was done.

16,077. Do you not know how many cuts of worsted were in it?- No; I did not count them.

16,078. What was the size of it?-I suppose it would be about two yards.

16,079. Was it made of fine wool or ordinary wool?-It was just the ordinary wool that is used for haps.

16,080. Were you paid in money or in goods for it?-I was paid mostly in goods, but he gave me money without my asking for it.

16,081. How much money did you get?-1s. or so. I could not exactly say how much, but he gave me what I required. I got the goods which I required, and he gave me that money, and he also gave me tea, which was the same as money, because if I had had to buy it I would have had to pay for it.

16,082. Could you get money for the tea?-I did not sell it; I kept it for my own use.

16,083. Did you ever sell anything that you got for hosiery?-No. I always required anything I got for my own family.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, examined.

16,084. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,085. Do you do anything else?-I keep lodgers. They are generally workmen, such as masons.

16,086. Do you knit a good deal?-No; all that I do in that way is very trifling. It is generally fine veils that I knit.

16,087. Who do you sell them to?-Mr. Sinclair; I work for him; he gives me the worsted. It is Scotch worsted that I get, but I don't know the quality of it, nor the price.

16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I have a few that I am knitting.

16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work for him.

16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?- From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine.

16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one of coarse?-Yes.

16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just now and let me see it?-Yes,

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.

16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew; but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the house-work.

16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost entirely.

16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls.

16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in goods.

16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked for it.

16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to private people, and they always pay me in money.

16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I like. I don't go to any one in particular.

16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing.

16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when we can get them.

16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it, and therefore I never thought of doing so.

16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing.

16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea, sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the shop.

16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?- Yes.

16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient to supply yourself with dress?-Yes.

16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is required for the house.

16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself.

16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No.

16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it has always done so in time past.

16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your mother?-No.

16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the very finest worsted either.

16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?- Yes.

16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?- Yes.

16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think so, judging by the fineness of the worsted.

16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes, sometimes.

16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and price?-Yes.

16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4 yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four borders in the square.

16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25 scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you got 12s. in goods?-Yes.

16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the merchants?-No.

16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid for knitting than when they are fine.

16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality. The worsted was not the very coarsest.

16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per cut?-I cannot say.

16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater.

16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?- I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d.

16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me here?-Yes.

[Page 409]

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled.

16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for veils of the same quality.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.

16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great number of job articles which tear in the dressing.

16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to 2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them.

16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d. worth of worsted.

16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got upon the whole.

16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?- About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz., and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d.

16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30 dozen veils, which cost me altogether about £45, and I sold them for about the lot.

16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could. I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or something like that.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.

16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr. Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s. 6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s. 41/2d. for it.

16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which you got 9d.?-Yes.

16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for it?-No.

16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls you knit?-Yes.

16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined.

16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick.

16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five years.

16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special regulations came into effect-1867.

16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that the men who received their wages at the Custom House were frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not.

16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so.

16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were here?-Yes.

16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions specified in the agreement.

16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice was stopped.

16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have been in 1869 or 1870.

16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870.

16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom House?-Not so far as I am aware.

16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it done.

16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a part of what was really payable to them?-Yes.

16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could see them keeping the deduction off.

16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the superintendent or of yourself?-Yes.

16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done, but it has not been done at all times.

16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye watching everybody.

16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a press of business?-Occasionally.

16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that.

16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that either.

16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an understood thing that they should do so.

16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is.

16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have overheard the agent and the men talking about it between themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he came to settle the other account at the shop.

16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has.

16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of seamen?-Occasionally.

16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are always engaged there.

16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing vessels?-Yes.

16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?- Yes.

16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd.

16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not aware. They are all selected before they come before us.

16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not observed that.

16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained.

16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the subject?-I think so.

16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no doubt there was little objection at the time.

16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it was troublesome.

16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to recollection.

16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that.

16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable.

16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries.

16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the first year.

16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at once.

16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and handing over the net balance only.

16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took place before you?-No.

16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?- Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I could not be positive.

16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can attend to them, they are.

16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes.

16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes.

16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying, so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to stop all these informalities.

16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No.

16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in settling, most undoubtedly.

16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months.

16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say.

16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better for all parties.

16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the course of ten hours for any whaling crew.

16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary.

16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of that.

16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of delay?-I never did.

16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands, there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again.

16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first instance without directing them to come and receive their wages?-I think so.

16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my knowledge.

16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly at Lerwick harbour.

16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD, examined.

16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be.

16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards.

16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool of different kinds-grey and black and white.

16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth about that.

16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly got for these little haps.

16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it.

16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s.

[Page 411]

16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845.

16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I got whatever I asked.

16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference whether I paid for it in money or in goods.

16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference.

16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so far as I know; but I can only speak for myself.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined.

16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes.

16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just now?-Yes.

16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes.

16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland and Davis Straits, for the most part.

16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling fishing?-No.

16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time; but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was able to go.

16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson & Co.

16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have been in Greenland almost every year since then.

16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom you were engaged?-Always.

16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes.

16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes.

16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent here, and sometimes not.

16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to send here for money when she could not get money from her neighbours.

16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so far as ever I knew.

16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of the time, but not at first.

16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you were absent?-I have done so lately.

16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left, that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid.

16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes.

16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?- No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things from him then.

16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes.

16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she required anything.

16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs. Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask.

16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent.

16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there, and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had been paid myself.

16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes.

16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late.

16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get credit from a neighbour.

16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even although there was an account due to him.

16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an account due?-Yes.

16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you were away?-Yes.

16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she asked it in that way?-I cannot say.

16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy supplies near home?-No, I never knew that.

16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known.

16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would.

16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that.

16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles.

16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted to him.

16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at first.

16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she has to sign it before she gets the money.

16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies; these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House.

16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you remember?-Yes.

16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago.

16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a month's pay every month when I was away.

16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it.

16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say.

16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that time?-No.

16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes.

16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes.

16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with the agent?-Not very much.

16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I don't remember; I don't think it was very much.

16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit, perhaps?-Perhaps there was.

16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money, that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as I am paid myself.

16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at once?-Yes.

16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it.

16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases.

16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself.

16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere else?-Yes.

16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most suitable articles.

16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had an account with the agent.

16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No, I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that.

16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he does.

16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not many ships that come here.

16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the case.

16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best chance of being engaged?-I don't know.

16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent, or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than another?-I cannot say that he has.

16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression or not I cannot say.

16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves.

16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case.

16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think there is some cause like that to account for it.

16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself.

16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop, you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next year?-I believe I would.

16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him.

16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I suppose I would have a chance.

16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I never saw that done.

16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account when I could.

16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that.

16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard about anything of that kind.

16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about that matter?-No.

16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think anything would happen at all.

16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House.

16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due.

16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months afterwards?-Yes.

16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for that year.

16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's books.

16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books.

16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account.

16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the book?-No; I did not know that until then.

16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books against you?-No; I was not surprised at all.

16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of course I would have paid it if I had been able.

16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once, to my recollection, in that way.

16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr. Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books against me next year.

16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No.

16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it will be more than twelve years ago.

16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at settlement?-No.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined.

16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper of a Faroe smack.

16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr. Leask's.

16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?- I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years.

16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.

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16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes.

16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes.

16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter.

16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient. For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us through part of the season.

16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?- Only very little.

16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?- Generally about the 1st of December.

16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in cash?-Yes.

16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require.

16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run an account of about £30 or £40 for myself and the vessel.

16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask £4 or £5 or £6 at a time, just as I need it.

16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?- No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned.

16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no doubt of that; but there is generally an account run.

16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway.

16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?- Yes.

16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I leave my money along with Mr. Leask.

16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his hands as I would get from the bank.

16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole balance that is due to you?-No.

16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed to you for it in your next account?-Yes.

16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes.

16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know.

16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked for money and did not get it.

16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what he has to get.

16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the merchant's shop?-It is just as they like.

16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They always do so.

16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity in time past.

16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?- No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew any men who did not take some supplies from him.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined.

16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes.

16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.

16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to the seal and whale fishing.

16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No.

16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them.

16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the agent who engaged you?-Yes.

16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes.

16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?- Yes.

16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes.

16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but I think it my duty to do so.

16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them.

16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange shop for them, because they would not give them to us.

16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?- Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not know us.

16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I don't take it out in that way.

16,355 But you could it?-Yes.

16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at another shop?-Yes.

16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No.

16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it, but we leave it with the agent; at least I do.

16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them out of the agent's shop.

16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has.

16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask for some time.

16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes.

16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it.

16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment note, but not otherwise?-Yes.

16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you had it?-I do.

16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally.

16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No.

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16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants it?-Yes.

16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know.

16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it.

16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing.

16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I suppose so.

16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling, that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like.

16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?- Yes.

16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference.

16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season; but I have changed agents occasionally.

16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co. to Mr. Leask then.

16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I wanted to go in. That was my only reason.

16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you changed?-Yes.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined.

16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I am.

16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes.

16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I have mostly been in the south.

16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No.

16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert Mullay.

16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?- Not for supplies, only for fishing material.

16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not ask for any; I did not want them at the time.

16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would.

16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for it?-I did not ask for it.

Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined.

16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick.

16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted with any person except the agent who will give me credit and therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my absence except through him.

16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my half-pay is usually 25s.

16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes.

16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too small?-Yes.

16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from the agent who engaged you?-I have.

16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always.

16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They said they did not know me.

16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.

16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the agent's for what I wanted.

16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling voyage?-Commonly they do.

16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are running an account with the agent?-No.

16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear with the agent at that time.

16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents before I went on another voyage.

16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in Lerwick.

16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if he had one?-Yes.

16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from an agent he should go and get his things from him.

16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you that reason for his refusal?-Yes.

16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not.

16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes.

16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the agent, and had signed clear in his books.

16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February.

16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it in the month of March.

16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your supplies?-Yes.

16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not, they usually make a change with the first month's advance they get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and best.

16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes.

16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places for what we want.

16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?- Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose, or as much as we have a mind to take.

16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go up to the Custom House.

16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at the Custom House?-No.

16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was due.

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16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages.

16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?- Yes.

16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay the balance due.

16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your account?-No.

16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything of the kind had been said to me.

16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No.

.

LERWICK: TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 6,1872.

JOHN HARRISON, examined.

16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick.

16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856.

16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes.

16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some.

16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of land or property in Shetland?-None whatever.

16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My father is a proprietor to a very small extent.

16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with land?-In no way whatever.

16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business, with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have gone into our service.

16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent times.

16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four years back.

16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe fishermen?-Yes.

16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be laid down for their observance.

16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do so?-I know of no such obligation.

16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different.

16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and who had money in their own possession.

16,441. How many of these cases have come within your knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not particularize them. There have been several cases which have come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men; but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the result would be that they would be warned out.

16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen. One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him which hindered him from going.

16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly interested in it ourselves.

16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years ago; I cannot say precisely.

16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country; and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets.

16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes.

16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us.

16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?- By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty different occasions, that although men were due us from £5 to £18 or £20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken, and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than employ them.

16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that ever was made.

16,450. You are aware, I suppose, that that statement was made in the evidence of a witness who was examined in Edinburgh?-Yes, I read something of that kind in the evidence; but I think it was erroneous. I suppose Mr. Walker, when he made it, thoroughly believed that the parties to whom he referred believed that having a number of debtors was the best thing they could possibly have; but my impression is quite different, because the fishermen who are in debt do not have the same energy, nor do they exert themselves so much in procuring fish as other men who are free. If the fishcurer who had so many debtors had called them in and said to them, 'Now men, I will strike off the balances against you, and you will get no more supplies until you bring fish ashore,' I have not the slightest doubt that at the end of the season the result would have been it great gain to him, and a great gain to the fishermen.

16,451. But you think that other parties in Shetland may have acted upon the principle referred to in Mr. Walker's evidence, although you do not approve of it?-They may have done so, and I have no doubt they have, because it is a common axiom in Shetland that if once you get a man into debt you have a hold over him. No doubt you have a hold over him, but it is simply a hold over a very unwilling slave.

16,452. However, you have acted upon a different principle?-I have always endeavoured to do so as much as possible.

16,453. And you think you have been justified in doing so by the results?-Decidedly.

16,454. Can you give me any particular instance in which you proved the superiority of men who were free from debt to those who were in debt?-I can give general instances of that. In an island called Hildesha, belonging to my father, the men were accustomed to cast their fish, as it is called, green, and to get payment at so much per cwt. when they were landed green on shore. I found, after three or four years' experience, that at the settlements the men were getting into debt, although they were very good fishermen; indeed there were no better fishermen on the west side of Shetland. When I asked them the reason they said, 'Will you give us liberty to cure and dry our fish, and to sell them to you, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co., when they are dry?' I said, 'Certainly, if you think that will better your condition. Our house is an exporter of fish to Spain, its well as Garriock & Co., and I expect that you will not give them the fish at the same price which we will give you for them, but that you will rather give us the preference, seeing you are tenants of my father.' The men said that of course I should get the fish immediately they were dried, and they thought that would be an advantage to them. The result of that was, that the men reaped a great benefit; and although some of them afterwards, left the island in debt to the extent of £50, the best of them are now free men, and have money of their own in bank.

16,455. Is it long ago since that happened?-It is more than four or five years since they left the island.

16,456. How long is it since they paid off their debts?-I think not more than three years ago, some of them.

16,457. Was that not binding the tenants to deliver their fish to you in the same way as proprietors do, whose method you disapprove of?-Certainly not. I stated distinctly that if they offered their fish to Garriock & Co., and could get more money from them, then they were at liberty to sell to them. There was no stipulation whatever to the effect that these men were to deliver their fish to us.

16,458. Except that they were to give you the preference?-That was not at all stated. They simply gave us the preference, because they had a notion-a very foolish notion-that we might have acted in the same way as other parties would probably have acted if they had not done so: that was, by giving them a warning and turning them out of the island.

16,459. Did you not say that you stipulated with the men for that preference?-No, I did not stipulate for it. When I said to them that I expected they would give us the preference I did so not in the way of a threat, but, seeing that the men were tenants of ours, and that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with any supplies which they might receive, from our house during the time of the fishing, I felt that they were right in giving us the fish. I don't deny, however, that there was a certain sort of coercion upon them, from the very fact of my father being their landlord.

16,460 Have you considered the existing system in Shetland with the view of suggesting a remedy for the grievances which are alleged to exist?-I have thought it great deal over it, and our firm has suffered a great deal in consequence of the existing state of affairs, in the way I have already referred to; but certainly the remedy one can hardly point out

16,461 What do you consider to be the principal evils which exist?-The principal evil in Shetland arises from the system of land tenure, whereby no man has a lease; or if he gets a lease and if he is a fisherman, that lease is such that it is impossible for him to continue to be a fisherman, and to prosecute the fishing with energy. It is those who have no leases who are so bound down that they cannot do anything in the least degree contrary to the wish of the landlord or tacksman. I may give one instance of that, which is rather ludicrous. I was down at Sandwick parish the other day, and I was very anxious to bring up some fowls to town if I could get them to buy. I sent a man round to see if he could get any for me, but he called back saying that although I had offered about twice the value for each of the fowls, he had found it quite impossible to purchase them, as it was an agreement between landlord and tenants, although the tenants had no leases whatever, that they had to deliver so many fowls about the month of February to the landlord. I don't know whether the landlord gave credit for these fowls and took the value of them off the rent; but my impression is that it was something over and above the rent, as a present for being allowed to sit without leases.

16,462. Was not that just part of the rent as kain was formerly paid, and is now paid in some parts of Scotland?-I don't think it was, because there is no account of rent in which that item is marked down, so far as I know.

16,463. But I suppose the obligation to fish which is imposed upon yearly tenants is the principal objection which you have to the present system of landholding?-Decidedly.-

16,464. It what way does it operate injuriously this way: that neither I, nor any man who has any amount of capital, can come forward and by competition enable these fishermen to get a larger price for their fish.

16,465. But the arrangement with these fishermen all cases is stated to be, that they get the current price at the end of the season. Would that current price be any higher than it is now if the tenantry of Shetland were not so bound?-I am speaking just now of the benefit to the fishermen, not of the benefit to the fishcurers. I think the current price at the end of the year might in many cases be less, even with greater competition, if the parties bought the fish green from the fishermen, all the fishermen being free, because several of them no doubt would be obliged to sell their fish at an early period of the year when they might not obtain a good price. That would therefore bring down the market, and the result would be that the fishermen [Page 417] in that way would get less money if a current price were fixed then. But with regard to the benefit to the fishermen, I think that if there was a system of cash payments the competition would ensure the highest price to the fishermen; and of course the parties who bought would have to take the risk, the same as every merchant does who buys an article in every other trade in the world.

16,466. If you were introducing a system of cash payments, how would you propose to work it in the ling fishing?-That is a very difficult question to answer. In the case of the ling fishing, as well as in other fisheries, the only way would be to pay the men when they came on shore, as the fish were weighed out of the boat.

16,467. Would you pay them the whole amount according to a price fixed at the beginning of the season or at the time of delivery?-At the time of delivery, not at the beginning of the season.

16,468. Then that price would vary according to the state of the market?-Yes. If the price were fixed at the beginning of the season, and if one boat or twenty beats fished to one man, the result would be that that party would have the power over these men, so that no other competitor could come forward, although the markets might rise to the extent of from 1s. to 2s. 6d. per cwt.

16,469. Then you would not only have the price fixed at the time of delivering the fish, but you would give up the existing practice of engaging a boat's crew to fish for the whole of the season?- Decidedly. In the case of the ling fishing I would leave power to the boat's crew to sell to whom they liked.

16,470. In that case would there be any choice but to deliver to any fish-curer whose station happened to be most convenient for the crew?-The distances in Shetland between the different stations are sometimes very considerable, and of course a fisherman would be obliged to deliver his fish to any party who had a station near his house, if no other person came forward, but by the existing law any person who wished to go into the trade could come forward and erect a booth on the shore, and put up all the paraphernalia necessary for the curing and drying of fish, no matter on whose ground it might be. There are plenty of beaches in Shetland; and if the fishermen at a station came on shore and found that they could get a higher price from any competitor who came forward, other than the person who had a booth erected on that beach, they would be quite entitled to sell their fish to that other party, who could cure his fish on the beach, seeing that the party who held the beach did not have any fish to cure on it himself, no matter to whom the property belongs.

16,471. Is it not the practice in Shetland for proprietors to let their beaches?-It has been the practice, but it is not legal. The practice has generally been to charge 1s. per ton for the curing of fish on the beach; there is no such thing in Shetland as a beach let, but the tenants or small crofters who want to eke out their incomes can cure fish, or rather dry them, for themselves on paying perhaps 1s. per ton to the landlord or to the tacksmaster, for the privilege of drying the fish on the beaches below the crofts which they occupy.

16,472. Is it within your knowledge that 1s. per ton is generally paid by every crofter who cures fish on the beach adjacent to his holding?-That is quite within my knowledge, because our firm have paid it to more than twenty small crofters who have been drying fish for us, and they have then had to pay it to their landlord or tacksman.

16,473. Do you mean that that charge has been made by the crofters against you?-No, not made against us.

16,474. But they have made that charge, and you have agreed to pay it as part of the price of their fish?-When I first went into the trade 12s. per ton was paid for drying fish to the crofters to whom I refer. After a short time they complained about the 1s. per ton for the use of the beaches and our firm then raised the price of curing to 14s. per ton, which we paid, if I mistake not, for two or three years when no other firm in Shetland paid it. Now, as I understand, other firms in Shetland are paying the same money, 14s. per ton for curing; but 12s. was the original price when I entered into the trade.

16,475. Is that for drying also?-Yes.

16,476. If a price were fixed at the time of landing the fish, and were paid in the way you mentioned, by one of several competing purchasers, do you see any difficulty in the way of a fisherman continuing to live and support himself, as an operative in any trade has now to do?-There would be very great difficulty at first, because the greater proportion of fishermen in Shetland are dependent on the supplies which they receive from the fish-curer to whom they fish. At many times the weather is so bad that they have not sufficient to live upon, and are obliged to go to the fish-curer and ask him for the necessaries of life for themselves and their families.

16,477. But in a time of slackness in the iron trade, or any other trade the same difficulty might beset the operative?-Yes, he might be in want of supplies. I have no doubt that the operatives in Lancashire and the manufacturing districts often suffer what our Shetland fishermen have no conception of. I thoroughly believe, however, that any sufferings which they might be exposed to in the first instance might be relieved in some way, which I cannot at present suggest; but still afterwards their condition would be greatly improved, because such a system would give them a great deal more self-reliance, and the knowledge that they were simply getting payment for what they delivered would make them more independent and more energetic. I believe the result would be a greatly increased fishery in the islands, and the throwing over of that serf spirit which exists at present among so many of the tenants in the islands who fish.

16,478. Is it not the case that the Shetland fisherman has an advantage over the operative in the south, in respect that he has got a piece of land, which of itself is often sufficient to support him and his family during the greater part of the year?-Generally speaking, the crofts would do so. It would be a very poor croft indeed which would not support them for at least six months a year. In such a case the piece of ground must be very small, or at all events it may be their own indolence which leads them not to make the most of it; but in that way the Shetland fishermen have a great advantage over the operatives in the town, who, if they do not earn a day's wages, cannot get a single farthing's worth of food, except from the charity of others.

16,479. But then it is said that the fishing is it more precarious trade, and extends only over it period of the year in Shetland. Does that not counterbalance any advantage which the fisherman derives from having a croft?-It is true that the fishing is a precarious trade, but we have always found that whenever the weather permits, energetic men can make a very fair earning from it. Of course, when the weather does not permit, it is impossible they can do anything except in the way of inshore fishing; but unless the weather is very bad indeed, if a man will only try he will get as much from that as will save his family from starvation. I think the advantage he has by his croft will compensate for any disadvantage to which he is exposed by the occurrence of periods of bad weather; and therefore I consider that his position is infinitely superior to that of an operative in a time of strike or it time of bad trade, when manufacturers are obliged to cast off their hands from want of sufficient work to keep their mills or their manufactories going.

16,480. Do you consider he would be better even if a system of cash payments were introduced, and he did not fall back or could not fall back upon the fish-curer when he was in want of supplies?-I consider it would be much better.

16,481. Would a system of cash payments be an insuperable obstacle in the way of a man of steady and respectable habits and good repute, obtaining advances in provisions from any merchant in his neighbourhood?-I believe it would help him very considerably. I consider that if it system of cash payments was introduced, [Page 418] a man would find a great deal more facility in getting goods at the lowest possible price from any person who might wish to put up a store in his neighbourhood.

16,482. Are you aware that a great amount of apprehension exists among fishermen in Shetland lest any change in the present system involving payments in cash should deprive them of the support which they derive from the fish-merchants in bad seasons?-I am aware that that is a very prevalent idea among them, and several instances of it have come under my notice during the last two or three years.

16,483. Are you of opinion that that apprehension may have had some effect in making the fishermen unwilling to come forward and to give evidence freely before this Commission?-I have not the slightest doubt that that has prevented men from coming forward who would have been able to have given the best possible evidence with regard to the questions you have asked me.

16,484. Are you now speaking from your knowledge of the people and of the system for many years?-I am speaking from my experience of the people and of the system, which experience has extended over more than 20 years.

16,485. Would it be possible to introduce a system of cash payments in this way, by allowing the fish to be paid for at the current price at the end of the season, if the parties so agreed, and arranging that at delivery a certain proportion of the price should be paid in cash: for example, that three-fourths of the average price for the last five years should be paid them, leaving the remainder of the price to be paid according to the current price as ascertained at the end of the season, thus giving the men the benefit of any rise which might take place in the market by that time?-I am afraid that if such a system were adopted, the party who got the fish from the men even on one occasion, and paid three-fourths or two-thirds of the value of the fish delivered according to the contract price, would have such a power over the men, that, even supposing a competitor came forward, say in a month afterwards, to buy their fish, they would not be able to sell to him although he offered a higher price, because the knowledge that there was a balance standing in the hands of the merchant to whom they had sold in the first instance would hinder them from taking advantage of the increased price from the other, for fear they might not be treated in the way in which they ought to be at the settlement.

16,486. But the question which I put assumed that the engagement of the fishermen was for the whole season?-I cannot see how in that case it would alter the system. It would remain the same as it is at present, because, if the engagement was entered into for the year, although there might be no contract or obligation on the fishermen to take supplies from the man who bought their fish, yet there would be a certain feeling on their part which would force them, as it were, to go with their money which they had received as part payment, and buy goods with it from his place. Therefore the merchant might have the same monopoly which he at present enjoys.

16,487. But if the men had the cash, would that monopoly be in any way injurious,-if you can call it a monopoly where the men have the choice between two shops, and voluntarily prefer that of the fish-curer?-Under the present system of land tenure it would have no effect, because whoever the landlord favoured, if the landlord was not a fish-curer himself, would of necessity have the preference in the dealings of the fishermen, as they would know that under the present system they are liable to get forty days' warning and be turned out of their farms at Martinmas.

16,488. Do you mean that under the present system the fishermen would consider themselves bound to deal at the shop of the landowner or tacksman if he were engaged in fishing?-If a system of money payments were adopted they might not consider themselves bound to do so, but there would be so many petty vexations put upon them, that the men, out of regard for their own comfort, would decidedly give the preference to the tacksmaster's or the landlord's shop, if he happened to be in the trade, notwithstanding that they might have to pay a trifle more for the goods which they got at his shop.

16,489. Then is it your opinion that, without altering the system of land tenure in Shetland, a system of cash payments would be unavailing to improve the condition of the people?-If no landlord and no tacksman under a landlord was in the fishery trade, then an improvement might be effected, but so long as landlords and tacksmen-who have power over the land sometimes to a much greater degree than the landlord himself can exercise-are fish-curers themselves, it is impossible that a system of cash payments can have any effect in ameliorating the condition of the fishermen as it now exists.

16,490. In what way do you think it possible to modify the system of long settlements now existing with regard to the Faroe fishing?-The only way possible, seeing that the voyage to Faroe extends to six or nine weeks on an average, would be, that when the agreements are made out a contract should be entered into between the owner and fishermen along with these agreements, providing that they are to deliver their fish at a certain price per ton weighed out on their arrival at a port in Shetland, whatever port they may agree to deliver them at.

16,491. Then, in the case of the Faroe fishery, you would suggest that the price should be known before the vessel sails, and not, as you propose with regard to the ling fishery, at the time of delivery?-No, I don't say that. The difference is, that the owner of a Faroe vessel, according to the present agreement, has the risk of the vessel and of the outfit, and also of the salt and of materials necessary for the prosecution of the fishery. In most cases, indeed in all cases, he requires to give advances to a certain extent to the crew, say from at the lowest to £7 or £8 in other cases. If he did not have the power of getting the fish in his own hands, by having a contract from the men to deliver their fish to him at a certain price rather than to others on their arrival after the first voyage the men would have the power to deliver their fish perhaps to another competitor, and the result would be, as is sometimes the case in the Greenland trade at present, where the men are paid at the Custom House, that his advances would not be paid to him at all. The difference appears to me to consist in this, that the fish-curer who gets the fish is the owner of the Faroe fishing vessel, whereas in the ling fishing the men who fish in the boats are the owners of them. That, in my opinion, makes a great difference.

16,492. It is part of the agreement in the Faroe fishing that the merchant should have delivery of all the fish, and that he is entitled to it, because he is the partner of the men in all that they take?-That it is the agreement

16,493. Then you think it would be possible, and perhaps expedient, that a settlement should take place at the return of the vessel from each voyage?-I believe most of the owners would agree to that; but my impression, from the feeling which I know to exist among the fishermen, is, that they would have a notion that they were lying under a disadvantage by making a contract before the fishing commenced.

16,494. Do you think the fishermen get any advantage in the Faroe trade from having their fish paid for at the current price at the end of the season?-They get a very considerable advantage in that way. We have been in the habit for several years of purchasing fish from vessels owned by Englishmen, and manned by English fishermen from Grimsby and Hull. We pay them a certain price per ton, cash down, when the fish are landed on the beach, and we are supposed to make, and I may say that we do make, a profit upon these fish when they are sold in a dried state. Our fishermen, generally speaking, get within a commission of the price that we receive for these Englishmen's fish, which fish are quite as good as our Shetland fish, and therefore they have the difference of the profit which we make on the price we pay for the fish in a green or wet state and the price that we receive when the fish are dried.

[Page 419]

16,495. Then, if the settlement were to take place at each landing of the fish, in whatever way it was made, you think the men would lose that advantage?-I don't say they would lose in all cases. In some cases they would gain. We have often lost in buying fish in that state, because the markets at the end of the season have fallen so very heavily.

16,496. Would there be any objection, in your opinion, to bringing the vessels employed in the Faroe trade under the regulations of the Merchant Shipping Act applicable to foreign-going ships?- There would be very great objection to that. It would ruin the fishery altogether if there was the slightest restriction upon the vessel sailing at any moment: a great part of a fishing voyage might be lost. In my opinion, a delay of twenty-four hours has, in many cases, hindered a crew of mine from gaining £100.

16,497. When a vessel comes in from her first Faroe voyage, how long does she usually remain in harbour?-That depends very much on the energy displayed by the men in getting the fish out and getting on board their supplies of salt and other fishing material requisite for the next voyage. I know vessels which have taken a week, and I know other vessels which have been off again in forty-eight hours. It cannot be done in less time than that.

16,498. I believe the vessels on their return don't always come to Lerwick?-No; the most of them go to the west side,-to Scalloway and the adjacent places in the islands.

16,499. So that it would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in each of these places, if any such regulations were adopted with regard to the Faroe smacks?-It would be necessary to have a Custom House officer in at least eight different places in Shetland.

16,500. Do you mean that there are eight places frequented by these Faroe vessels where they are in the habit of landing their cargoes?-There are eight places where the vessels go, no matter at which place they land; but there are more than thirty or forty different places in the islands at which they land their fish. I am simply referring to the places where the owners of the vessels live, and where the vessels go in order to receive stores and salt after the fish have been landed.

16,501. Then the fish may be landed at a different place altogether from where the vessel has afterwards to receive her stores and salt?-Yes.

16,502. But they do go to one of these eight places invariably before starting on their second voyage?-Yes.

16,503. What are these eight places?-Voe, Vaila Sound, Skeld Voe, Reawick, Bixter, Tresta, Whiteness, Scalloway, and Lerwick.

16,504. Do you think it is advantageous for the fishcurer, as a matter of business, to have a shop for the supply of his fishermen; and do you think that a system of short payments or of cash payments would be consistent with the fish-curer remaining also the keeper of a shop?-I don't consider that it would be advantageous for a fish-curer to have a shop where there was sufficient competition to cause him to sell at the low rates of profit which obtain in all places where there is a proper amount of competition, because he undertakes a risk which otherwise he would not do. He takes the risk of supplies to men who go to the fishing, and who may come back without anything whatever. Then, if he is not a landlord or tacksmaster, he knows perfectly well that he has not power over these men to force them to serve him for another year; and therefore I consider that if there was a system of short payments, and if the fish-curer had no advances to make to the men, he would be in a better position than at present, if he is a man of capital, and was able to lie out of his money until he could get the fish dried and prepared for market. There is no doubt that fish-curers in Shetland would require to have more capital than they do have if a system of short payments were adopted, because they get credit, perhaps for months, for the goods supplied to the fishermen; whereas if they had to pay cash they would be placed in quite a different position.

16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don't say that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the creditor's knowledge that they had such fish in their possession, obtain a renewal of their bills.

16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice.

16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?- In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever, because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing.

16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly.

16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that they may purchase goods where they please. I don't think that any of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some other necessary article for the house.

16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?- In some cases he may not be able to do so.

16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances from their employer although they may have money of their own?-I don't say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a certain extent.

16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the case.

16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice of hoarding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the fishermen?-I believe it does.

16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?- I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to have paid off the debt.

16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way, that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for them until the end of the season.

16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner whale fishing at Iceland.

16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?- The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you, refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men's earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average payment to each was £23, 15s., and in many cases those who had the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction except where they wished, were the men who took up the least advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings of the 81 men and boys in that year were £3022, 18s.; the total amount paid in cash was £1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of £23, 15s.

16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father's island after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing.

16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them.

16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen there?-The father of the family went to Burra.

16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and several sons?-Yes.

16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?- Yes.

16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke out a living in the best way he could.

16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not sufficient to keep them.

16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere.

16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more economical.

16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as well as others.

16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than under the other system?-Yes.

Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.

16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in Lerwick?-I am.

16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for the seal and whale fishing?-Yes.

16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to give in as part of your evidence?-Yes.

[The witness put in the following statement:-]

'I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief management of their ship-agency business, and particularly as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The masters generally selected first those men who had been with him the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of getting their first month's advance in cash, even before the recent regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases where they did not take all their first month's advance in cash, it was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially. Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month's advance could go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what they could not pay the first. Without such assistance these young men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the crews myself, but since then I have had to be assisted by one or more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent. instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first month's advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned, that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master, but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters' accounts there, although not permitted here.'

16,532. You say in that statement, 'The masters invariably chose the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that.

16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in most cases.

16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they had been engaged.

16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been engaged?-No.

16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could not know what they did in other shops.

16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things which the men have to provide jointly.

16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the captains?-Yes.

16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No; the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection have made.

16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?- No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me that he wants to go again in that particular ship.

16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The master generally has a list of his last year's hands, and if he likes them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the other men who come forward.

16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He generally has a list of his former crew there to look at.

16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his former crew?-No.

16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not entered in your books?-No.

16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then he takes his own men.

16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and see if there vacant berth that will suit him.

16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along with the rest.

16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take any man he chooses.

16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless he was a useless man that I knew was of no use.

16,550. Then you have refused to suggest a man in such a case?- Yes; if a man was not a good hand, or the like of that, I would tell the master so, and then he could take him or not as he chose.

16,551. But have you ever said to a man when he came applying for a berth, 'I cannot take you,' or 'I won't take you, before the captain?'-Not to my recollection.

16,552. Then a man might as well go to the master at once as apply through you for an engagement?-The master comes to the place to select his own men, and some of them go on board and apply to him themselves.

16,553. If you make no selection at all beforehand, is there any use for them applying to an agent? Might the men not go to the master at once and be selected by him, without your intervention at all?- They might; but the master wants an agent to assist him in collecting his men.

16,554. What assistance does the agent give him?-He helps him in engaging them. For instance, the articles are all filled up by the agent, except the names, before going to the Custom House, so as to facilitate business there. Perhaps there may be a number of ships lying here at one time, and there are a number of arrangements to be made. The agent carries through all that, and the master has merely to attend at the Custom House and see the thing completed.

16,555. That is to say, you give the master certain assistance after he has selected the men?-After he has selected the men we take down their names, their places of birth, and so on, and enter them in the articles.

16,556. But before he selects the men the agent has done nothing?-No further than that if a man comes wanting an engagement, the agent will tell him that the master will be on shore at a certain time, and the men are told to be there.

16,557. Is that the statement which is invariably made the men applying for berths to you, without exception?-Yes, invariably; except it is a man that I know is of no use and then I may tell him that I can say nothing for him.

16,558. How many men out of 100 applicants might you say that to?-Not many. I never turn any away if the man chooses to go and take his chance; but if I know that the man is not a suitable hand, I tell him that he cannot expect me to recommend him. But there are very few men of that kind.

16,559. Do you remember any cases in 1871 in which you intimated to the men that they were of no use, and that they would not get a berth?-I don't recollect any.

16,560. Do you remember any particular cases of that kind in the year previous?-I do not recollect any.

16,561. Have you ever intimated to any man who was owing you an account that he was of no use, and would not get a berth?-No, not to my knowledge.

16,562. In what way do you know that a man is of [Page 422] no use?-By being told by masters that he was of no use.

16,563. Have you a general knowledge of the men's abilities from their reputation?-Yes, from what I hear from the sailors who have gone in the same ship; or if the master has found them not to be suitable hands, he tells me not to send them to him again. But there are very few instances of that kind; perhaps not one out of 100 or 200.

16,564. Was that the mode of selecting the men which was in use five or six years ago?-They were all selected in the same way by the master; he was always present.

16,565. But had not the agents more power in selecting the men some time ago than they have exercised lately?-Not so far as we were concerned. I cannot speak for others.

16,566. When a man went to another agent for employment, being in debt to Hay & Co., was it usual for that agent to enter the men's debt to you in his books, in order to obtain a settlement of it for you?-Not lately; but sometimes it has been done.

16,567. Was it done on the application of Messrs. Hay?-Yes.

16,568. Does the captain apply to you for some opinion as to the qualifications of the men?-Yes, if he does not know them himself.

16,569. You have told me that you have generally made yourself pretty well acquainted with the men's abilities?-Yes.

16,570. Then I suppose only a certain proportion of each crew shipped at Lerwick consists of men who have been in that captain's employment previously, perhaps one third?-Sometimes they had almost all been in the same ship before, but they changed agents occasionally. Perhaps sometimes one half of them might re-ship.

16,571. But very often the captain would secure one half or one third of new hands?-Yes.

16,572. In that case you must be consulted a good deal about the qualifications of the men?-Yes. I tell the master about them, so far as I know; and in some cases, perhaps if he ships a man, that man may be able to recommend another to him.

16,573. But I suppose the captain attaches considerable weight to your recommendation?-Perhaps he does.

16,574. Have you any reason to doubt that he does?-I have not. I would not recommend a man if I did not know him to be a good hand.

16,575. Has a captain ever refused to follow your recommendation and to take a man whom you had recommended?-When he had plenty of men of his own, of course he would take no others than them.

16,576. But when he was in want of men, did he generally follow your recommendation?-Sometimes I have seen him in doubt between two or three men whom I have recommended, and he selected any one of the three that he liked himself.

16,577. If you recommended one man in preference to another, have you ever seen him take a man of whom you disapproved?- In some instances I have seen him take a man who had been recommended to him by another that he had engaged, instead of a man that I could recommend. The man had sailed with him before, and he recommended another man with whom he was acquainted, and the captain engaged him.

16,578. In that case he might suppose that the shipmate had a more intimate knowledge of the man's abilities than you could have from hearsay?-That is very likely.

16,579. But if there were no such influences as that, have you ever known the captain refusing to follow your recommendation?-No. If he asked me for good man, and I could bring him one and did it, he took him.

16,580. Has any captain complained that you, or those acting for Messrs. Hay & Co., had suggested men who were not preferable on account of their abilities, but who were owing accounts, or were likely to incur accounts to Messrs. Hay?-It is very seldom that I had the chance of recommending men who were in debt to us. I never studied that in recommending a man to a master.

16,581. Was that because you had so few accounts with the men?-We generally had accounts with them all when they went out but there were a few that we had no accounts with.

16,582. Have you any doubt that the men were under the impression or had an understanding that they ought to get their supplies and their outfit, to a certain extent at least, from the agent who engaged them?-They expect that the agent will supply them.

16,583. But does the agent expect that they will give him their custom?-There is no force in that case.

16,584. I am not saying there is force, but does the agent expect that?-We must provide for it, whether they want it or not.

16,585. What must you provide?-We must provide clothing for the men in case they want it.

16,586. But does the agent expect that the men whom he engages for the Greenland whale fishing will come to him for their outfit, or part of it?-Yes, because they had generally done so; but they have never been forced to do so.

16,587. I am not saying that they are forced, but does the agent expect that?-Of course he does, and he is prepared for it.

16,588. Do the men know that he expects that?-I daresay they do.

16,589. Was not that the principal consideration in inducing the agents to undertake to carry on the agency?-I cannot say what it was in former times, because there was an agency in the house before my time, and I came into it after it was established.

16,590. But is it not the case that you are giving up the business because the 21/2 per cent. commission is an insufficient remuneration for your trouble?-Yes, it is insufficient for the trouble we have; and I daresay if it had not been for the circumstance that the present masters are sons and. grandsons to masters who had been coming to the house long ago, we would have given it up sooner.

16,591. Have accounts for outfit and supplies for men employed in the Greenland fishing become less in recent years than they were ten or a dozen years ago?-I daresay in some cases they have.

16,592. Is it not the case that they have done so upon the whole?- Yes, because there are not so many green hands taken now as there were then.

16,593. You have found it necessary to restrict your credits to them?-On the short voyages we have. A voyage of two months is not like one of five or six months.

16,594. You have therefore lost part of the profit which formerly accrued upon these agencies?-Of course if the outfits are less, the profits must be less.

16,595. Is that the reason why you have found it necessary to give up the business?-That is not the reason. It is because of the trouble we had with them. I believe we have perhaps sold as much to the men this year as we did when we had the agency.

16,596. Even when you had a great number of green hands?- There are not many green hands going now, because the outfits cannot be given to them. That has been the experience of the last few years.

16,597. But, apart from green hands, is not the amount of out-takes by these men less than it was ten or fifteen years ago?-With some men it is as much, and with others far less.

16,598. Do you think that upon the whole it is less?-I have not looked into that, and I could not be sure about it.

16,599. Have you any general impression about that matter?- When there were some green hands going of course they required a larger outfit than they require now.

16,600. I am putting the green hands out of view altogether; I am referring to the able seamen. Do you think that their accounts altogether are not less than they were formerly?-In some cases they are.

16,601. Are they not less upon the average?-I daresay [Page 423] they are, because men do not require so much now as they used to.

16,602. Is it not the case that you have been less willing to make large advances to any class of seamen since the regulations of the Board of Trade in 1867 or 1868?-We would give some men what they required, and to others we would not.

16,603. Do you mean that to men you knew you would give what they required?-Yes, but to strangers we would not.

16,604. Is that because your security in the case of strangers is much less than it was formerly?-Yes.

16,605. Is not that one reason why you are giving it up?-No. The chief reason is that the commission is small, and the trouble is great. We cannot get all the men together at one time for settlement, or else it would be soon done.

16,606. But if you had the same returns from the men's accounts which you had formerly, would not that be sufficient remuneration for your trouble?-It would not.

16,607. Would you require larger accounts now than you had before, even at the most flourishing time?-No, not larger accounts; but we would require a better commission.

16,608. But larger accounts would serve the same purpose, would they not?-I don't know. We have so much trouble in bringing the men together and getting them settled, that the commission is not sufficient for it, and in fact our people wished to give it up in 1867.

16,609. In what respects is the trouble greater than it formerly was?-Because the men don't come together, and we have perhaps to go up with one and then with another, until we get the whole crew discharged.

16,610. Do you mean that formerly you settled at your own office?-Yes. We did so before the Board of Trade regulations were adopted, and we could take the men at any hour in the day and settle their counts with them; but when we have to go to the Custom House, we can only do that in the Custom House hours, and that entails a great deal of extra time and trouble.

16,611. I suppose that in the case of each ship that may involve a dozen visits to the Custom House?-Possibly it may; sometimes more and sometimes less. We try to get as many of the men forward as possible when the ship arrives, if she comes to Lerwick.

16,612. Will each of these visits to the Custom House occupy an hour?-I would not say that it would occupy an hour.

16,613. Could you do it in half an hour?-Possibly we might.

16,614. You would not have more than twenty visits to the Custom House in the case of any ship?-I could not say the number. I have known sometimes that we had to go to the Custom House with one man, and when we came down to the office we found another man ready, and we had just to return again.

16,615. You say in your statement that you are not aware of any case where the men required to be compelled to come forward and pay their accounts?-No. They have always come forward after coming from the Custom House and paid their accounts.

16,616. I suppose the men understand that they are expected to pay their accounts at that time?-Yes, when they get their money.

16,617. Is that the understanding upon which the advances are made to them?-Yes, they know that.

16,618. What would be the consequence if they did not pay at that time?-We would just have to take steps to get payment; that would be the only consequence.

16,619. If a man declined to pay at that particular time, would you have any objection to get him a berth next year?-We could not refuse him, if the master chose to take him.

16,620. But would you help a man to get a berth if he was in debt for the previous year?-I would not care much for that,

16,621. Could you not prevent him from getting access to the captain along with the other men?-No. The place is open for any one to come in, and I could not prevent him.

16,622. But he would have to apply directly to the captain?-Yes, he would have to apply to the captain for a berth; but they all do that.

16,623. But I understand the captain only takes the men who are secured by you?-No; I never said that. The men come to the place themselves, and they know the place as well as we do, because it is always crowded with men, and the captain chooses from among them, what men he wants.

16,624. Are there usually more men than berths?-Yes.

16,625. And I believe there is often a great crush to get into the presence of the captain?-Yes, generally.

16,626. Do you tell me that a man who is in discredit with you, and who has not your good word, or rather who is in your black books, has any chance of getting a berth from a captain?-We never had any experience of such a case, because the men have always paid their accounts.

16,627. Don't you think they have done that under the apprehension that they would not get a berth in the following year, if they did not do so?-I don't know that.

16,628. Might not that be a reasonable explanation of the punctuality with which they come down from the Custom House and pay their accounts?-It might be, but I cannot say. They never expressed anything of that kind to me and I have no reason for thinking so. The men whom we trust are honest men, and we knew they would pay their accounts. If we thought they were not honest men, who would come down and pay their accounts, we would not advance them.

16,629. Would you not give them advances in goods?-No. We always give them the first month's advance in cash.

16,630. But you would not advance them goods if you thought they would not come direct from the Custom House and pay their accounts?-No, not unless they came on their return.

16,631. Have you any doubt that if the master of the ship and the agent concurred in telling the men to go up to the Custom House at once, and have their accounts settled, the men would attend to that direction?-I have done that myself. I have asked the men on board ship before they left it to remain in town until they were discharged at the Custom House, and I could not get them to do so.

16,632. If you told them that you would decline to pay them afterwards, would they not do so?-They knew we could not do that. I remember once making the remark to the shipping master that the law should be imperative upon the men as well as upon the master or agent; and unless that is done I believe the system will never be other than it is.

16,633. When did you tell the men to remain in town until they were discharged?-I have done that several times in late years.

16,634. Did you fix a day when they were to attend?-They know that they should do so within twenty-four hours. For instance if they landed today, we would settle with them tomorrow.

16,635. Would you have any difficulty in doing that?-None.

16,636. Have you ever had any conversation with the men when engaging them with regard to the outfit or supplies they wanted?- Yes. I have had such conversations with them in the shop after they were engaged. They generally go to the country after they are engaged and come back again; there is a certain time allowed to them.

16,637. Had you ever any such conversations with them before they were engaged?-Not about supplies.

16,638. Or about outfit?-No. We don't know what they want until after they are engaged.

16,639. Have you not asked them what they wanted, in order to know?-No. I suppose they can hardly tell themselves until after they begin to inquire.

16,640. But have you never had any conversation with them [Page 424] on the subject before engaging them?-We don't know whether they would be engaged or not until after the engagement was made.

16,641. Have you never had any conversation about what they might want in the event of their being engaged?-I don't recollect doing anything of that kind. It is generally afterwards that any conversation takes place about supplies.

16,642. I suppose, as a matter of course, there is some conversation about that after the men are engaged: they always want something?-When they come to town again before they sail they must have some warm clothing, because men going in that employment require warmer clothing than in any other climate.

16,643. How long is it after the men are engaged before they come back?-They may come back next day, or two days afterwards, or any time the minister fixes for sailing.

16,644. Does the vessel usually lie in Lerwick for some days?-I have sometimes seen her sail on the following day, or sometimes two or three days afterwards. The master fixes the time when the men have to be on board, and they must all be in Lerwick, able to go on board the same day.

16,645. So that in that case there is not much time to arrange about outfit or supplies?-No; I have known men engaged on one day, and go to sea the next.

16,646. Did you give any allotment notes?-We always paid them in cash at the Shipping Office.

16,647. Did you generally give such notes?-Yes, on long voyages, but on sealing voyages we did not.

16,648. Were these notes taken in name of the man's relations?- Yes; of his wife, or father, or sister, or brother.

16,649. Were they not sometimes taken in the name of the agent who was giving them supplies?-No; they were addressed to the agent, to be paid by him.

16,650. But were they not also taken in the name of the agent or of some of his clerks?-Not that I am aware of.

16,651. Was that never done by Hay & Co.?-Not to my recollection.

16,652. Would you be surprised to learn that it had been done in other houses in Lerwick?-It may have been done, but I cannot tell.

16,653. In the conversations you have with the men about their outfit or supplies, is it not usual to suggest what they should take, and where they should get it?-No. We ask them what they want; but sometimes, if it is a man we are doubtful about, we refuse to give him all that he asks.

16,654. But if it is a man you are not doubtful about, do you always ask him what he wants?-We have done that, but he knows what he wants without being asked, and he takes what is necessary.

16,655. Is there any other person here who wishes to make any further statement, or to tender additional evidence?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings in this place.

.

KIRKWALL; THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1872

THOMAS WILSON, examined.

16,656. I am a weaver in Kirkwall. I was born in Fair Isle, and I lived there till two years and nine months ago. There are between thirty and forty families in Fair Island. They live chiefly by fishing for cod, ling, and saith. They fish chiefly in summer. They have always had to sell their fish to the proprietor, that being a condition of their holding their farms. Their farms are from four to six acres in extent, with a right to the scattald. I believe since I left, they are not allowed to pasture their cattle on the scattald without paying for it. The island belonged, when I first remember, to Mr. Stewart of Brough, in Orkney, whose tacksmen were first Mr. William Strachan, Dundee, and afterwards John Hewison, Westray. Mr. Bruce bought the island about 1864. I remember for about fifteen or twenty years before 1864. I am thirty-five years of age. The people had to sell all their fish to Mr. Strachan and Mr. Hewison. They were told so by them. It was always the custom to sell their fish to the tacksman, who also kept a shop for the sale of goods. There was always a shop, but sometimes no goods were in it. I have seen it without meal for more than ten days, and then the people had no resource but fish, or milk, or anything they could get. That happened in summer. In winter the people always had a supply of meal of their own. There are three or four water-mills on the island, where the people grind their own meal. They are the old-fashioned little mills usual in Shetland. When Mr. Bruce got the property, the meal and goods generally became dearer than they were before. I don't think we have ever wanted meal altogether since he bought the island. We have had to send to Sumburgh for it, but have generally got a supply before our meal was quite done. Sometimes, however, it has been very scarce. When Strachan and Hewison had the island, any one might come to the island to trade; and sometimes James Rendall, of Westray, and sometimes James Smith, Cunningsburgh, came with boats bringing goods and meal. They sold about the same rates as Hewison and Strachan. The reason why we ran short was, that we could not got notice sent. The steamer did not use to stop for us then, but now we get her to stop for a letter. We have had to sell the fish to Mr. John Bruce, jun. and to him only, since Mr. Stewart sold the island. The price of fish has been fixed by the man who comes to settle, which is in June or July. That settlement is for the previous year, up to the 1st of May immediately preceding. I have seen them miss a year. I have been told that Mr. Bruce has missed a year since I came to Kirkwall. There are very few pass-books. The accounts are all read over to us. We couldn't always remember everything we had got. I suppose we had just to take it as it was. The factor on the island read over the accounts, and he handed a note of the total to Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine, who came to settle with us. We got cash if there was a balance in our favour, but never in the course of the season. We never asked for money during the season; it was no use to ask for it, for we would not get it. I don't remember if any one ever asked for it. We could sometimes buy from Rendall, who is the only person that has come to trade there since Mr. Bruce bought the island. Since Mr. Bruce came, he has not had liberty to trade; and he erected a stage on the seashore, and people bought from him there. Formerly he and Smith carried on their trade in the house where they lodged. I suppose Mr. Bruce had forbidden that; at least all the people understood so. They used to lodge with Mrs. Thomas Wilson, near the shore. Rendall's prices were always a good deal lower than the prices at the shop. Their tea and sugar were cheaper. Mr. Bruce has tea at 11d., and I remember once at 15d. a quarter; Rendall's was 10d. or 11d. sometimes, I think, as low as 9d. There was not very much difference in the tea. Rendall always had sugar at 6d., common grey sugar; Mr. Bruce's was regularly 7d. I remember [Page 425] Mr Bruce once had loaf sugar at 1d. per oz., or 14d. a lb., about 1867. I don't remember his having loaf sugar in the shop at all at any other time. Rendall's sugar, I think, was 9d. Cottons were bought cheaper from Rendall. His were 10d or 11d., blue and white shirting: Mr Bruce's 1s., or once 16d. The prices did not vary much at Mr Bruce's store from year to year. I remember quite well the price of oatmeal in Fair Isle during my last year there. I paid 30s. a boll. I sometimes got the price when I got it, sometimes only when I settled. I think I knew the price that year only when I settled. The account was sent to me that year after I had left, and 17s. of balance due to me was remitted. I know meal was that year 23s. or 24s. a boll in Kirkwall. Mr Alexander Gibson, merchant, told me so as I came down here. I have the account which was sent to me, in which the total amount of the shop account is entered to my debit (£9, 13s. 4d.). The entry 'By amount from the 'Lessing' account, £6, 17s. 9d.,' which is put to my credit, means payment for lodging to workmen, and for work done by myself at the wreck of the 'Lessing' on Fair Isle. The owners or insurers, I suppose, were the employers of the men who worked at the wreck; but the money came through Mr Bruce. 'By cash, left as a deposit, 11th May 1868, £3,' was money I was fool enough to leave in Mr Bruce's hands at previous settlement at his request. I left it in his hands as my banker. I can't remember buying meal from Rendall on any particular occasion that I could specify. But I know I have bought it from him cheaper than I could get it at the shop. I got it from Rendall at 26s., and I am quite sure, that during the 4 or 5 years I was on the island under Mr Bruce, I never got meal at the store for less than 30s. I remember his (Rendall's) selling goods at night; but that was for his own purposes:-to get his away as soon as he could. I think I have heard of him selling goods at night one time when Mr Bruce and Mr Irvine were there, when they were asleep, but I can't give any distinct statement about that. In 1868, James Williamson, Kirkwall had men working at the wreck of the 'Lessing,' which he had bought. His meal was cheaper than that at the store. I had to buy some of Williamson's as there was then none at the store. That was in July. I was employed by Mr. Wilson, the factor, in quarrying for a store Mr. Bruce was building. That was settled in the account at the end of the year. All work was so settled I have already shown. It is the entry 'By work with P. M'Gregor, at 1s a day, 13s 7d.'

Six families left Fair Isle, and came to Kirkwall in 1869. We all left because meal was so dear, and wages were so low. They all left of their own accord. I am sure they all left of their own accord, and were not warned away by the landlord. About 100 people left, in my remembrance, for America in 1862. Government helped them. There had been a great scarcity before that. In general, there is always a scarcity some part of the year. They live mostly on tea, and porridge, and oatmeal cakes. In summer there is a little flour sometimes. They get plenty of fish generally in winter, chiefly by fishing from the rocks. [Being asked if he had anything more to say, depones:] Only about the beach fee in the account already shown. I got only the £3 for the whole half year I worked there. I wrought 22 weeks and a half, and I was to get 5s. a week; but he said because I left the work to work at the 'Lessing' I should get no more. I wrote about it to Mr. Bruce, who wanted a detailed account of my work, which I gave him; but I got no definite answer. When Williamson was working at the 'Lessing,' he was not allowed by the laird to employ men Fair Isle. The landlord or his factor said they would be put out if they worked to him. I was forbidden to work to him myself. Mr. Wilson and Mr. Irvine both forbade me to work to him. I was told I would have to leave the island if I did. I was intending to go, and did go, and am glad I goed [sic]. I have been far better off since I left. I have had better wages, better food, and less work since. The other people from Fair Isle who are here, would say the same, I believe. I think Fair Isle people would be better off, if they had liberty to buy and sell with any person they choose.

Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, MARY DUNCAN or QUIN, examined.

16,657. I live in Kirkwall. I was born in Lerwick, and lived there till 7 years ago. I have knitted for 20 years all sorts of articles of hosiery. I knitted both with my own wool, and for the merchants. I was always paid in goods. I never got a penny in money. I was not much in need of it. I often earned 9s. or 10s. in a week when veils were dear; but generally less than that. I knew many women who depended entirely on knitting for a living; and they had to take the goods and sell them for half-price, to any one who was requiring them. It was sometimes not easy to find people who would buy. They had just to ask among their friends if there was any one who wanted the things they had. I know James Coutts, provision merchant, used to take the goods from knitters. I knew many people who gave them to him for tea and sugar, and sometimes meal. I have been in his shop when such transactions were carried on. I don't know if Robert Irvine dealt in that way. I know Betty Morrison. I know that knitters disposed of their goods to her. I have seen her come to my mother's house with tea and sugar for sale. I knew they were from parties who had been knitters to Mr. Linklater and other merchants. She told us who the tea was from, so that we knew quite well it had been got from some one who had been knitting. Sometimes, too, she would tell who it belonged to. We always got it cheaper than it had been sold in the shop. It was always dearer in these shops than in others, sometimes 15d. a quarter, and we got it from Betty Morrison for 10d. That was very common. Jean Yates, and dozens of others, hawked about goods got from knitters in the same way. I had to buy a great deal more dress than I needed, because I could get nothing else for it. Knitters have all plenty of clothes. Some of them I know have far more clothes than food. I always sell my knitting for money here.

[Shown veil got from Grace Slater, February 5.] I would get 2s. 6d. in goods for that, when knitted with my own wool. Seven years ago, and 3 years ago, when I was home, 1s. or 1s. 4d. in goods, according to the market, would have been paid at Lerwick to one who knitted such a veil with merchant's wool.

[Shown veil from E. Malcomson, February 5.] I would get 1s. 6d. for the veil, wool and all, here.