Chapter 2

5856. Do you deal with Mr. Adie's store at Voe to any great extent?-Yes.

5857. Do you take your goods from Voe to Sullem?-Yes.

5858. Is not that a long way to carry them?-It is.

5859. Could you not get them as good nearer home?-We could get them much the same but not better. If I want goods, Mr. Adie will either send them to me, or I may sometimes get the chance of a boat coming my way.

5860. How far is it from Sullem to Voe?-Perhaps from eight to nine miles.

5861. Are there shops nearer to you than that?-Yes; there is a shop at Brae, and there is also a shop to the northward.

5862. Can you get goods as cheap at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-Much the same.

5863. Do you deal as much at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-No; I deal more with Mr. Adie than with them.

5864. Is that because you have an account with Mr. Adie?-Yes.

5865. Do you know whether there is any difference between the prices in the shop at Voe and at other places?-I see no great difference. I have tried other places; and if there was any difference at all, it would be that I could get an article at Mr. Adie's perhaps a little cheaper than at other places.

5866. Then the only disadvantage you have in dealing at Voe is the distance?-Yes.

5867. And the only advantage you have is that you have an open account there?-Yes.

5868. Is that the only reason why you deal there-The boat we fish in belongs to Mr. Adie; we hire it from him.

5869. Is that any reason for dealing at Voe?-No but we fish to Mr. Adie, and we get goods from him as we require them, and at the year's end we make a settlement.

5870. There is a convenience in making a settlement at the end of the time, because you have not to pay for the goods in the meantime?-Yes.

5871. But if you got your cash every month or every six weeks, as you wanted it, would that not save you the trouble of going to Voe for your goods?-It might.

5872. Would you not consider that a great advantage?-No, not a great advantage.

5873. Do you think it is handier to make a settlement once a year and go to Voe for your goods?-Yes.

5874. Are you obliged in any way to go there unless you please to do so?-No, we are not obliged.

5875. How much do you generally get in cash at the year's end?- That varies according to the fishing. I have seen us get £8 or £9 after deducting our accounts.

5876. Do you require that money to pay your rent and other things that you want to buy?-Yes.

Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM POLE, examined.

5877. You are managing partner at Mossbank of the firm of Pole, Hoseason & Co, merchants and fish-curers?-Yes.

5878. You have other places in Shetland?-Yes. We have one in North Yell, at Greenbank; we have also two fishing stations-one at Feideland, and the other at Gloup. Feideland is at the extreme end of Northmavine, and Gloup is at the farthest north part of Yell.

5879. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Adie?-Yes.

5880. Is the way in which you carry on your business at Mossbank substantially the same?-Yes, substantially the same. One difference is that we don't give discount on the fishermen's accounts in the way Mr. Adie seems to do.

5881. Is there any other difference that occurs to you?-The fishermen pay for their lines in some cases by three yearly instalments, and in the event of fisherman leaving us we are not bound to take back the lines from him, as Mr. Adie said. But that is quite a trifling difference.

5882. What proportion of dried fish do you estimate to be produced from the green fish, in settling with your men?-It takes 21/4 cwt. of green fish to make 1 cwt. of dry in the case of ling; and in the case of tusk it takes more.

5883. Is that a universal calculation in Shetland?-In some years it is a little less, and in some years a little more.

5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so much green?-There can be if it is wished.

5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry.

5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?- Yes.

5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4 cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt. green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the country.

5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?- Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at 8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt. of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about 2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt.

5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat and lines, which has to come off the fish also.

5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six seasons.

5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the lines are getting more used and more worn.

5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the current price of any other commodity in any other place would be ascertained.

5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out the price?-Yes.

5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing.

5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure about that; but I never attended one.

5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No.

5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another.

5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does happen occasionally.

5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it.

5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes.

5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one firm complain that they have not got so large price as their neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice.

5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season begins?-I don't think so.

5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were so fixed?-I do not.

5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant.

5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect they could possibly be better than they are.

5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a fixed rate per annum?-Yes.

5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?- Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then, before they commence work on the beach, they require some clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are settled with at the end.

5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s.

5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we very seldom pay a boy more than £3.

5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find a considerable difficulty sometimes.

5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For the past year for instance, it has not.

5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be.

5914. Are there many people employed in your curing establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women, but there are a few boys and a few old people.

5915. How are they paid?-By the day.

5916. When are they paid?-Whenever they wish

5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks, or perhaps whole season.

5918. How many days will these women be employed in the course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?- Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end of September we will employ on an average about twenty women daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank.

5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?- Yes.

5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in goods?-Yes, a considerable part.

5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding.

5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes.

5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for them.

5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest shop is about a mile off, I think.

5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No, there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.

5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.

5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.

5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with you?-Yes.

5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they seldom do it.

5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent.

5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not owners.

5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm, are factors for one or two small properties.

5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors of land?-Not tacksmen.

5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of one-fifth part of a rental of £3.

5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen.

5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference.

5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them the current price of the country.

5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?- Aywick, in East Yell.

5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it.

5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them. If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly.

5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go to the whale fishing if they prefer it.

5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish to you?-Yes, if we wish it.

5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick, in North Yell.

5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us. There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell.

5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us. They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to fish to us.

5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven. These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen.

5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of small place in Delting, at Mossbank.

5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four.

5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only one of them, I think, who fishes for us.

5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent.

5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection with Greenbank.

5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same way against the price of the fish?-Yes.

5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat only.

5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing.

5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small extent.

5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie has described?-Yes, quite the same.

5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes.

5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally.

5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes.

5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material difference as to the amount of their shop accounts.

5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated already.

5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year. There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price.

5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per boll

5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick, because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price current for your inspection.

5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices at your own shop?-Yes.

5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our books can show them.

5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the party.

5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward.

5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes.

5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes.

5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes.

5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the man's account?-Yes.

5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.

Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined.

5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at Mossbank?-I am.

5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is my fourteenth year.

5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and with their families?-Yes.

5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed.

5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes.

5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I refer to?-Yes.

5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system upon the habits and character of the people?-I have.

5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful character in the people. For example, they are bound by their agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all that is done in an underhand way.

5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of them except from the fishermen's own statements.

5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.

5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by purchasing from other boats.

5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.

5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make purchases.

5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of individual cases that have come under my notice.

5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them do.

5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can hope to pay in one year.

5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in debt.

5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about £20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.

5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they never think of making any provision for the future. They know when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they were accused of running too far into debt.

5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.

5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the shopkeeper?-They are under his control.

5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes their energies.

5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a man being in debt paralyzes his energies.

5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do, or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready money?-The way in which I would understand the system operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large family, cannot afford to do that.

5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?- There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have spoken of.

5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they otherwise would do?-I think so.

6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit. Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year, and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once. That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods cheaper.

6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these merchants are higher than they are at others where that system does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal experience as to the difference in that respect.

6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.

6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above any difference in price. There are many articles I require which are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get such articles as are suitable for me.

6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with. In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.

6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in everything else.

6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress. Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery goods because they would get money from her for them. They often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour to get her to buy them.

6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.

Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie.

WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.

6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.

6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.

6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for him in the summer season for the last six years.

6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.

6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south. It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.

6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.

6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.

6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe fishing. During that time I have had my freedom

6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.

6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily ability was one.

6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.

6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.

6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They are supposed to fish for their landlord.

6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is, from hearsay.

6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give them to him.

6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.

6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered you a good wage?-[No answer.]

6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty until I inquired at my land-master.

6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too: have they told you that that is the obligation under which they lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.

6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is the understanding that they must fish to the master.

6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th January.

6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.

6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man to read it for me.

6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine.

6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes.

6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read it to you?-I had other errands besides that.

6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes.

6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes.

6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not understand it, and I would like if he would explain it.

6038. Did he explain it?-Yes.

6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid to go, and that I should tell the truth.

6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else.

6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no.

6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what had taken place between me and himself.

6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or documents.

6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?- Yes.

6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes.

6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that. I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it.

6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All that I remember.

6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated so much in some of your answers. You said the people at Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?- As I supposed.

6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them do it.

6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell.

6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so that I don't know many of the people.

6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name.

6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have.

6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No answer.]

6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?- I believe they do; but I don't know.

6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of the men who do that.

6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My dealings are there, for the most part.

6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than Voe?-I cannot say.

6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it called thirteen miles; but I don't know.

6060. Are you married?-Yes.

6061. Have you a family?-Yes.

6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience.

6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?- Sometimes.

6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick.

6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere too.

6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's.

6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so far as I know.

6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled about the end of the year?-Yes.

6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally before.

6070. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]

6071. Have you generally a balance of cash to get at the end of the year from Mr. Adie?-No.

6072. Are you generally in his debt to some extent at the end of the year?-Yes.

6073. How much were you in debt last settlement?-It was for something over £7.

6074. Have you always been in his debt?-Not always.

6075. How long is it since you had a balance to get?-I am not sure, but I think it is four years ago.

6076. I see from your pass-book that you have got a number of sums of cash paid to you. There are 16s., 8s., 2s. 6d. twice, 9d., 1s. 2d., and 3s. in cash, between December 23, 1870, and November 27, 1871: did you always get these advances of cash to account of the fishing that was going on during this season?-I always got the cash when I asked it.

6077. Did you get these advances to account of the fishing that was going on last season?-I was at the fishing last year.

6078. And you were delivering fish to Mr. Adie at the time you got that cash?-Yes.

6079. You were also to some extent in his debt?-Yes.

6080. Did he give you cash when you asked for it?-Yes.

6081. Did you get cash from him with which to pay your rent?-A little: £2.

6082. That is not marked in your pass-book?-No.

6083. Did you get it since the last entry was made in your book?- I got it before January. That is not all my account.

6084. Have you another book?-No.

6085. But there are some things which you have got which are not put in here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my book, and I have got what I asked.

6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have your pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.

6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty of the shopkeeper?-Yes.

6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I ask it to be done.

6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a hurry to get home.

6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they were not honest.

6091. Does Mr. Anderson send any smacks to the Faroe fishing?-

Not to my knowledge.

6092. Do you consider yourself under any obligation to ship in Mr. Adie's smacks for Faroe?-I do.

6093. Is that because you are in his debt?-Yes.

6094. Are there many other men who go in smacks for the same reason?-I cannot answer that.

6095. Have you ever heard any of your shipmates say they were in Mr. Adie's debt, and that they could not ship with anybody else?- Not so far as I remember.

[Page 151]

6096. Do you know whether, in point of fact, many of them are in debt to Mr. Adie?-I don't know.

6097. Have you ever heard that they were?-I don't remember.

6098. When are you told the price you are to get for your fish at the Faroe fishing? Is it at the settling time?-We are told some time before, but not long.

6099. You leave the selling of the fish in the hands of the merchant entirely?-Yes.

6100. Is it the bargain that you are to be paid according to the current price at the end of the year for your half of the fish?-Yes.

6101. Before bringing out your half, there is a deduction of 5 per cent. for commission?-I don't know about that. I have heard of it, but I cannot say anything about it. I forget about these matters.

6102. Do you understand the bargain you make, and the way in which the settlement is made for your fish?-We get one half of the fish, and have to pay for salt and for the drying of the fish.

6103. Do you know of any other deductions that are made from your earnings?-Yes; there is a deduction made for part of the bait with which the fish are caught.

6104. Is there not something for lines?-We generally buy our own lines.

6105. Are these set down as part of your account in the shop?- Yes.

6106. But not in the pass-book?-Perhaps not.

6107. The book you have produced is for your own family requirements?-I generally take the book with me; and when I have it, I mark into it what I get out of the shop.

6108. Is it the boat's crew, or is it you individually, who are liable for the lines?-Every man takes lines for himself, if he chooses.

6109. Do you fish any when you come home from the Faroe fishing?-I fish a little, but nothing that can do me any good towards selling. I get no selling fish.

6110. You only fish for your own use, then?-Yes.

6111. In a small boat of your own?-Yes; or sometimes on the stones.

6112. Do you never sell any of the fish that you catch when you come home from Faroe?-No; I have not sold any for the last four years, so far as I remember.

6113. Would it not be easier for you to get your shop goods at Ollaberry, rather than to bring them fourteen miles from Voe?-If I want it, I can get anything sent down to Ollaberry.

6114. How far is it from your house to the shop at Ollaberry?- About half a mile.

6115. Do you get things there as good as at Voe?-Yes.

6116. And as cheap?-Yes, so far as I can judge.

6117. Would you get them always at Ollaberry if you were not fishing for Mr. Adie?-I cannot answer that.

6118. If you were not fishing for Mr. Adie, would you take the trouble of going to Voe every week or every month, as you wanted, to bring meal or tea or anything you wanted to buy?- No, I would not.

6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use comes from there.

6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book about with me.

6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen to Ollaberry direct.

6122. How much was there of it at a time?-I don't remember.

6123. Was there a quantity sent at the same time to other people besides you?-No; it was only for myself and my family. I got a boll, or a sack, or whatever I wished Mr. Adie to send for.

6124. Mr. Adie got it sent from Aberdeen to you?-Yes, because I could get it cheaper from Aberdeen than from his own store. The money, of course, was his.

6125. Are there any other men fishing for Mr. Adie at Ollaberry?-I don't think there are.

6126. How did the meal come to Ollaberry from Aberdeen?-It came by the steamboat to Lerwick; and there are two vessels that come north, either of which it might have come by,-either the little steamboat or a packet which ran there.

6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.

6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.

6129. Was it this year you got it?-Yes; but I have got it in previous years in the same way.

6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't remember.

6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.

6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?-No, I had it with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr. Adie to look over the pass-book.

6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.

6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.

6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.

6136. Are there any people in your house who knit?-Yes; my wife knits.

6137. Where does she sell her hosiery?-She sells it at Ollaberry, or Lochend, or at Hillswick, whichever place is most convenient. She buys the wool, and spins it herself. The articles which she knits are not very fine, and she sells them to any person who will buy them.

6138. Is she paid in goods or in money?-Generally in goods.

6139. Does she sometimes get money?-No; she seldom asks for it.

6140. Why does she not ask for it? Does she not want it?-No, not so far as I know.

6141. Has she an account in these shops?-She has an account in some of them. She has an account with Mr. Laurenson at Lochend.

6142. Anywhere else?-I don't know.

6143. Is that an account in your own name, or in hers?-It is an account of her own, so far as I know.

6144. Is it quite a separate dealing from anything you have to do with?-Yes.

6145. Have you ever had to pay your wife's account at Mr. Laurenson's?-No.

6146. Has she ever got money from that account for her hosiery to pay for your rent or for anything you wanted to buy?-No.

6147. Is it the practice not to sell hosiery for money in your neighbourhood?-I cannot say. I know that the general thing is goods.

6148. When is your wife's account with Mr. Laurenson settled?- It is settled when she is able to pay it.

6149. Has she generally something to pay for what she gets, or has she a balance in her favour?-It is seldom she has a balance in her favour.

6150. If she has such a balance, is it settled in goods?-I cannot answer that. If she wanted money she might get it, for anything that I know.

6151. Do you pay a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-Yes; 8s. a year.

6152. Have you ever lost any lines or a boat?-No.

6153. Have you ever had anything to receive from the Society?- Yes; I was once sent home when I was shipwrecked.

6154. Was that all you have had to get from it?-Yes.

6155. Do you know of any people who have been turned out of their land in Shetland?-Not in our district.

6156. Do you know of any who have been turned out elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Walker turned out some Delting, on Major Cameron's estate.

6157. What was that for?-Because he wanted the land. Some of them were very anxious to sit if they could have done so, but I suppose they could not comply with his terms.

6158. Were these men fishermen?-Yes.

[Page 152]

6159. He did not want their service as fishermen?-Not to my knowledge.

6160. Do you know of any man who has been turned out of his ground for refusing to fish, or for selling his fish away from his landlord or tacksmaster?-Not that I remember of.

6161. Does your wife sell any eggs?-Yes.

6162. Anything else off your farm?-She has nothing else to sell.

6163. Where are your eggs sold?-We generally sell them in Ollaberry to Mr. Irvine.

6164. Have you an account there?-Yes.

6165. Is it settled at the end of the year?-If I am able to settle it; but if I am not able to settle, then it just stands.

6166. Are your eggs put down to your account?-No.

6167. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if I want it.

6168. How do you pay your account there, if you never get money from Mr. Adie at Voe?-Generally in this part of the world we are not confined to one thing. People in this country have sometimes different ways of getting money.

6169. Do you follow some other trade?-Yes; I sometimes sew as a tailor.

6170. And you make a little money in that way?-Yes.

6171. Are you paid in money for your tailoring work?-Generally.

6172. Is that done for your neighbours?-Yes; but I generally work for Mr. Adie and I am paid in money for that.

6173. Do you go to Voe to work, or do you go there for it and take it home?-I take it home.

6174. Does the payment for that work go into your account with Mr. Adie?-If I don't want it paid to me, it goes into the account; but if I want money, I get it.

6175. When you want money to settle your account with Mr. Irvine at Ollaberry, is that where you get it?-Not always.

6176. You get it from a party for whom you have made a coat or trousers?-Yes.

6177. You say that your eggs don't go into the account with Mr. Irvine: are you always paid for them in cash?-Not always. We sometimes take goods for them; but if we wanted them to go in to our credit, they would go.

6178. Do you always take goods for them?-Generally.

6179. What is the price of your eggs?-For the last year or two they have generally been 6d.

6180. Can you sell them anywhere you like?-Yes.

6181. Could you sell them at Mossbank or at Brae if you could get a better price there?-So far as I know, we could.

6182. Nobody would make any objection to that?-Not so far as I know.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, THOMAS THOMASON, examined.

6183. You are a fisherman at Eshaness?-Yes; and I fish at the fishing station at Stenness.

6184. Have you a boat of your own?-I have a share of a boat.

6185. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a while, but I might fish to any one I choose. I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a number of years.

6186. Have you a bit of land?-Yes, on Tangwick estate-Mrs. Cheyne's.

6187. Who is the factor there?-Mr. Gifford of Busta.

6188. Are you quite at liberty to engage to fish with any merchant you please?-Yes, any one. I am at perfect freedom to fish to any man, and I have always been so.

6189. Do you keep an account with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?- Yes; I always keep my own account myself.

6190. Have you a pass-book?-No.

6191. You have an account in his books?-I generally have.

6192. Do you generally get your supplies and provisions from him?-I do; but I buy my provisions where I think I can get them cheapest. I am not bound to get my provisions from him.

6193. Do you find they are as good at Hillswick as you can get them anywhere else in the country?-I find that I cannot get much profit or advantage by going even to Lerwick to buy my goods, more than by buying them at Hillswick. I could not get so much profit as would pay me for my trouble.

6194. Have you bought meal at both places?-I generally buy very little meal.

6195. Do you get enough meal off your own ground to serve you?-Generally I do. I have a pretty good farm-just as much as will hold us in meal.

6196. How far do you live from Hillswick?-About four English miles.

6197. When you go to Stenness, do you get your supplies there?- Yes; the supplies that are required for the fishing.

6198. You keep an account for these with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.

6199. And that is balanced every year?-Yes; I settle once a year-perhaps in November.

6200. Have you generally a balance to get in cash?-Generally I have.

6201. How much did you get last year?-I don't know; the amount differs yearly.

6202. But how much had you to get last year?-I don't know. Perhaps I had £20 to get from him.

6203. Was that the balance which was due to you?-Yes; I suppose I got £20 of cash from him last year.

6204. Was that the whole price of your fish, or was it the balance which you got in cash?-It was the balance I got in cash.

6205. Do you think many of your neighbours got much?-I don't know, for I don't interfere with any man's accounts.

6206. Are you a skipper?-Yes.

6207. Have you any idea whether any of your men are as well off at the end of the year as you are?-I think so.

6208. Are most of them as well off?-I think so.

6209. You don't hear them talking about having balance against them?-No, I don't hear much about that. It does not lie in my way to interfere with it.

6210. Do you think the fishermen are better off now than they used to be long ago?-I think they are a great deal better off. I know I am much better off than ever my father was.

6211. How does that happen?-Because my father was a bound man, and had to fish at a very low price before he could be a tenant; but being a free man, I pay my rent on a day, and I serve any man I choose, and make the best bargain for myself that I can.

6212. Would you be better off if you knew before settling time what you were to get for your fish at the end of the year?-I know the price of the fish about settling time.

6213. But you don't know it until settling time?-No. I might be worse off if I knew it sooner, because I might get a lower figure, as the merchant could not be sure then what he would get for his fish. The price of fish in the south varies yearly.

6214. Who fixes the price at the end of the season?-I am not able to answer that exactly.

6215. What is your bargain about it?-I have had no particular bargains with the fish-curer; but there is an understanding that I have to get the highest currency of the country.

6216. Do you know how that is settled?-I don't; or if I have heard it, I did not understand.

6217. You don't know how it is found out what the highest currency is?-No; I cannot answer that exactly.

[Page 153]

6218. Who tells you what it is?-It is publicly known at settlement what is to be paid for the fish. We know what every man pays, and what the dry fish can realize.

6219. Is Hillswick the nearest shop you can go to for your goods?-It is the nearest shop that I can go to to get good goods. There are small articles sold nearer, but Hillswick is the only shop.

6220. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day to give evidence?-Nobody told me; but I heard that this was the day on which the evidence was to be given.

6221. Who told you that?-I don't remember now who told me. I think there was a lad from Hillswick who told me about it two days back.

6222. What was his name?-Arthur Sandison.

6223. What does he do?-He is the shopkeeper here for Mr. Anderson.

6224. And he told you to come here?-He told me this was the day when the evidence was to be taken, and that it was to be a public meeting. I understood something concerning it, and I came here voluntarily. There was no man who instigated me to come.

6225. Did Sandison not tell you that you had better come?-I don't remember him saying that I had better come or not; but, however, no man instigated me to come. I did not require to be cross-questioned to come; I just came freely of my own consent.

6226. You said the fishermen are better off now than they used to be: can you tell me any difference there is upon their condition?-I told you already that they were bound men before, but they are not so now with me.

6227. Is there anything else in which they are better off?-Yes; I think a free man is better in every point of view than a bound man.

6228. Do you think the men get a better price for their fish now?- I think they are getting double now for their fish what they were getting about fifty years back, or perhaps forty years.

6229. Do you know that from your father?-No; I know it from my uncle's accounts. He was a factor at Stenness; and I see from his accounts what the price at Stenness was then, and I know what it is now, and can see the improvement.

6230. Have you got his accounts?-I have. I have looked into them at home.

6231. What kind of accounts are they?-Factor's accounts.

6232. Do they show the price of the fish, or just the quantities delivered?-They show the price paid to the fishermen, and also the price of meal and other articles.

6233. What was the price of fish in those accounts?-It was as low as 4s. per cwt. for green fish.

6234. And it is now about double?-Yes.

6235. Do you remember the price of meal then?-Meal was sometimes very high. I remember seeing meal charged at 12s. per lispund of 32 lbs. This season it has been 5s. 4d.

6236. But sometimes it is higher?-Yes; the price of meal varies continually, just as it does in the south market. I don't think there is much advantage on that score.

6237. You don't think there is much difference on the price of meal, but on the price of fish there is a great difference?-Yes.

6238. Is there anything else you are able to tell me about the subject of this inquiry?-I don't think so.

6239. Have you any boys engaged at fish-curing work?-I had one boy engaged at it during the past season. He was in Mr. Adie's service at Stenness.

6240. Mr. Adie keeps a shop there during the fishing season?- Yes; to supply the fishermen with any necessaries during the time of the fishing.

6241. Does your boy keep an account at that shop?-He has only been employed for one season, and I kept his account and settled for him myself. He is quite a young boy-only thirteen years of age.

6242. Do you think it is better for you to do that than to allow him to have an account of his own?-He is not capable of keeping accounts yet. He has had no education for that.

6243. Had he no separate account in Mr. Adie's shop?-It was a mere trifle.

6244. Was he paid his balance?-Yes; it was paid at once in cash. Mr. Adie paid it to me.

6245. Is that a usual way of doing with the beach boys?-I think every one who had cash to get got it at once, and the man who was careful would get his cash at once. If I had £50 to get from the fish-curer, I would get it handed to me at once. I say that from my own personal experience; and that is always so with careful men.

6246. Then you are a successful man, and I daresay you have a large balance at your bank account?-I have too large a family to have a large balance there. I require a great deal of money for my family.

6247. Have you ever gone to the Faroe fishing?-I have only been a ling fisher.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, HENRY WILLIAMSON, examined.

6248. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.

6249. Do you hold some land on Mrs. Cheyne's estate?-Stenness is the station where we fish; and the farms we hold under crop, and where we live, are near it, at Tangwick.

6250. Your land is on the Busta estate, and you pay your rent to Mr. Gifford?-Yes.

6251. Are you free to fish to anybody you like?-Yes.

6252. For whom do you generally fish?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for twenty-three years back.

6253. Do you get your goods at Mr. Anderson's shop at Hillswick?-Yes, for the most part, or anywhere else I choose.

6254. Is there any other shop in the neighbourhood where you get goods?-Yes, occasionally. There is a shop at Ollaberry; and there is a store of Mr. Adie's at Stenness, kept by a factor during the fishing season.

6255. Are there also some small shops in the country?-Yes.

6256. Do you sometimes get goods from them?-Yes; if I require them, and if it is convenient for me.

6257. But most of your dealings are at Hillswick?-Yes, because it is near hand.

6258. Is it as handy a place for you as any?-Yes.

6259. Do you keep an account there?-Yes.

6260. Is it settled at the end of the year, when you settle for your fish?-Yes.

6261. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year in cash?-Yes, for the most part I have.

6262. How much?-It varies very much, according to the fishing. We had a good season this year, and consequently we had a good return.

6263. But sometimes you have a balance against you?-I have not had that for some time back. When the fishing is good, of course a careful man will be able to save money.

6264. Is it five or six years since the balance was on the wrong side for you?-It is between twelve and twenty years since I was due anything; but I found no difference in the man I was serving, when I required money in advance then, than I do now when I have money of my own to get.

6265. Do you get cash in the fishing season when you ask for it?- Yes; whenever I asked for it, even when I had to ask for it in advance, I got it.

6266. Are you quite satisfied with the goods you get at the shop?- I am quite satisfied both with the qualities I receive, and with what is charged for the goods I require.

6267. Would it do you any good to have the price of your fish fixed at the beginning of the year, so that you would know what you were to get for them?-I am convinced that it would be a great disadvantage to the fishermen at large in Shetland; and that was partly [Page 154] what brought me here, when I heard there was to be a meeting. I knew little about it until I came here, but I thought I was called upon to come and give you my views upon it truly. I think the present system in Shetland has done better for the fishermen than any new system would do which could be brought in; and I think I know about it, because I have been at the ling-fishing for fifty-four years.

6268. Have you always had your price fixed according to the currency at the end of the year?-Yes. We only know our price some time before settling time, and I suppose we are paid according to the current price which rules in the south market.

6269. Do you think the price is always fairly enough fixed according to the sales which the fish-merchants have made?-I think so.

6270. Do other people not think so?-I don't know. I hear very little said about that; and as to that, I would not regard much what others said. I would have more regard to my own views.

6271. But have you heard complaints made about that?-I have no doubt I have heard them. It is a very common thing for us to hear people complaining.

6272. Is it the men who are bound to fish that are more apt to complain?-No doubt it is; but I am quite convinced, as I have already said, that any change in the system will not benefit the labouring men.

6273. Why?-Because I think they are fully as well served now as they could be. Those who are not able to pay at the time for what goods they require are dealt fairly with, and are never brought to a stand.

6274. Then you think it is an advantage for the fishermen, in a bad season, to be able to get an advance in order to carry them through until the following year?-I know it is, because, although I have never been one farthing in debt, yet there are many men with families who I know, if it had not been for the kindness of the merchant or his factor in giving them advances, would never have been able to carry through, because they had no means of their own, and their families did not support them.

6275. Are there many men you have known of that kind who have been carried through the season by the advances of the fish-merchant?-A great many in some seasons, but not at present. These have been fine years for Shetland.

6276. But some seasons ago, when the fishings and the crops were not so good, were there many such men?-About twenty years ago there were plenty of them.

6277. Were there many of them five years ago?-I don't know that there were so many of them then. There was a bad season a short time ago; but it is turned twenty years now since there were such bad times in Shetland, and the people were carried through then chiefly by the kindness of the merchants for whom they worked.

6278. They got advances on their accounts just in the same way as you would get your cash paid to you, if the merchant were due it to you?-Yes; and not only that, but I know that the curers often paid their rents for them in cash in advance, although I did not have much experience of that myself.

6279. Were these advances generally made in money, or in articles which the men wanted out of the shop?-Generally in goods.

6280. When a man wanted food or provisions, I suppose he would generally get them advanced to him out of the fish-merchant's shop?-Yes; or any place where it would be most convenient.

6281. But you say that in these bad years, when a man was behind, it was the fish-merchant who carried him through?-It was. They were carried through merely by the agency of the fish-curer.

6282. Did the fish-curer carry them through by giving them money with which to pay their rent?-No; the curers brought in sufficient meal to serve their purposes.

6283. And that meal was sold at the merchants' shops, and put to the account of the men?-Yes.

6284. Was that done with clothing too?-Yes, clothing, and whatever they required to get.

6285. But all that was done by these merchants in the confidence that the men would pay them, if they were able, by the next year's fishing?-No doubt they were repaid in some cases, but in some cases the repayment was very slow. That depended altogether upon whether the times turned out favourable.

6286. Do you know any of the men who were helped through in that way?-I have no doubt I know them, but I have no interest to say much about them. I don't want to enter into that matter at all. I am getting well advanced in life, and I don't want to speak about my neighbours' affairs.

6287. Were there many of your neighbours who were carried through in that sort of way?-There were a great many of them who required supplies.

6288. Did it take a great many years to carry some of them through, and to enable them to pay up what had been advanced to them?-I cannot tell how their accounts may be standing at present.

6289. Then you only suppose that some of them may have been able to pay up their debt in the course of the following year?-I know they did so; and I might take myself as a specimen of that.

6290. But you said that you have not required any advance for many years back?-Certainly.

6291. Do you think that within the last ten or fifteen years there have been many men who have required to be carried through in that way?-I don't know. Probably there may have been, but I have not been requiring that for myself.

6292. But you have been speaking about your neighbours, and you say it is an altered time with them?-It is, even within the time you have mentioned.

6293. Do you think some of them, within that time, may not have been able to pay their arrears in the course of next season?-I cannot exactly say.

6294. But you have said so?-Well, it would rather appear so.

6295. You think they may have been so much in debt, that it required more than one year for them to pay it up?-It is very probable that may have been the case.

6296. Have you any boys engaged on the beach?-No.

6297. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; they are always working away at it.

6298. Where do they sell their hosiery?-At different shops.

6299. Do they go to Lerwick with it?-Sometimes.

6300. Are they paid for it in goods?-I don't know. I don't inquire much about it.

6301. Have they got accounts of their own?-Yes; they keep their own accounts.

6302. Do they help you to keep the family?-I am not requiring it. I can keep my wife and myself; and my two daughters knit to provide themselves with what they want. I never inquire whether they get part cash for what they sell or knit.

6303. Do they clothe themselves by their own knitting?-Yes.

6304. Do they never help you to buy provisions for the family at all?-They work very hard at it, but I do not require them to bring any food into the house. I can buy it myself.

6305. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day?-No; I came to Hillswick on an errand to Mr. Anderson's shop, and I heard that the meeting was to take place to-day. Mr. Sutherland also told me about it.

6306. When did you hear about it first?-I can't exactly say. I heard about it some time in the course of yesterday, but I cannot say who told me. I told then that there was to be a meeting on Thursday at the school-house.

6307. Do you not remember who told you?-No.

6308. Were you told about it at Stenness?-Yes; I was told about it in the place where I live.

6309. But you don't remember who first mentioned it?-I do not.

6310. Are you sure you don't remember?-Yes; [Page 155] I can't remember exactly who told me, for I just heard the story among the public.

6311. Was that among the public at Stenness?-Yes.

6312. Was there not some one from Hillswick who brought the news to you?-There may have been, for anything I know.

6313. Was it some of your own family who told you-No. I heard it down at the station, where the boats come in from the sea.

6314. Was Mr. Sandison there?-Arthur Sandison was at Stenness on Tuesday.

6315. Did you see him then?-I did. There were some affairs that he and I had to manage, because he is Mr. Anderson's factor in summer, and I have to do with curing fish for Mr. Anderson in winter.

6316. Did Sandison tell you about the meeting?-No.

6317. Are you sure of that?-Yes.

6318. Did you not speak to him about it on Tuesday?-I don't remember whether we said much about that, or anything about that at all. There are various things that I may have exchanged words about with him which I don't remember.

6319. Then you may have been speaking to him about it on Tuesday?-No; I had not heard any word about it on Tuesday.

6320. Are you able to say that Sandison did not speak to you about it on Tuesday?-I don't recollect him speaking about it at all.

6321. Do you swear that you did not speak to Sandison on Tuesday about this meeting?-I would not be safe to answer, because my memory might not hold good. Recollection gets short when age comes on, and I would not care for swearing to that.

6322. You say it was only yesterday that you heard about the meeting?-Yes.

6323. Can you swear you did not hear of it before yesterday?-I swear that I don't recollect of hearing about it before yesterday.

6324. Is it possible you may have been speaking to Sandison about it?-I may have done so; but if I did, I have completely forgotten about it.

6325. Do any of your family work at kelp?-Yes; my daughters work at it.

6326. What do they get for that?-I suppose the price varies.

6327. Do they gather the sea-weed and make the kelp themselves, and sell it?-Yes.

6328. What do they get for it per cwt.?-I cannot tell. I think the price is £4 or £4, 10s. per ton; but I am not very sure.

6329. Do you know how that is paid to them?-They are paid in cash if they ask for it.

6330. But they have accounts of their own?-Yes.

6331. Who do they sell it to?-I think they sell it to Mr. Anderson.

6332. And it will be settled for when they settle their accounts?-I believe so.

6333. Do you know if there is any difference in the price of kelp, according as it is paid in goods or in cash?-I don't know, for I have never inquired about that.

6334. You said that a number of your neighbours had been carried through by the fish-merchant when they were in arrear from the badness of the season, and you also said that you knew a great number who had been so carried through?-Yes, a good many.

6335. Have you any objection to tell me their names?-I don't know whether I could call their names to recollection.

6336. I asked you to tell me their names in private, and you objected to do so; but I now ask you upon your oath whether you remember the names of any such men?-I don't think I could tell any of their names now. I would know their names quite well at the time when they were getting what they were requiring, but I cannot name any of them now.

6337. Is that because you don't remember them?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, Mrs. MARY HUGHSON, examined.

6338. Are you the wife of Andrew Hughson, a fisherman and tenant here?-Yes; he is a tenant to Mr. Gifford on the Busta estate.

6339. Where do you live?-At Hillswick.

6340. Is your husband a fisherman?-He is a day labourer for the most part, and does land-work. He has been at the fishing, but not lately.

6341. Is he too old to go to the fishing now?-No; but he has been used to work on the land.

6342. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Very little.

6343. Do you knit any at all?-I knit for the family.

6344. Don't you sell your hosiery?-I have not sold much here. It is not very long since we came from Lerwick.

6345. Did you use to sell it there?-Sometimes.

6346. Were you always paid for it in goods?-Yes.

6347. Did you want to get cash for it?-No, I never asked cash.

6348. Do any of your daughters knit hosiery here?-Yes; and they sell it in Lerwick, as they were born there.

6349. Do they always go to Lerwick with it?-No; they sometimes sell it to Mr. Anderson at Hillswick.

6350. Do they always get goods for it?-Yes.

6351. Do they want cash?-They don't ask for it; it is not the custom.

6352. Are they quite content to take the price in the goods they want?-I suppose so.

6353. Do they also work at kelp?-Yes, in some way, we all work at kelp.

6354. How do you sell it?-We get 4s. 6d. per cwt. for it from Mr. Anderson.

6355. How are you paid for it?-We are paid in whatever we may ask for, in meal or tea, or goods of any kind.

6356. The way in which the kelp trade is carried on is, that you gather the kelp yourselves, and burn it and sell it?-Yes.

6357. Have you to pay for the privilege of gathering it?-We pay nothing.

6358. Can you sell it to any person you like?-There is no person buying it here except Mr. Anderson.

6359. How do you settle about your kelp? Have you an account in Mr. Anderson's books?-We get what we want, and pay for these goods with the kelp, and then anything we take out additional goes into the account for another year.

6360. Do you only settle once a year?-Yes.

6361. Do you always get 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it?-Yes; I got 5s. per cwt. some years ago, but the price is lower now.

6362. How long, in the course of the year, do you work at the kelp?-We work at it while the season is dry-from Whitsunday till the 1st August.

6363. During that time how many cwts. will you and your daughters gather?-Some years less, and some years more. We will sometimes have about £2 worth.

6364. That will be about half a ton?-Yes.

6365. Did you take the price of that in goods?-We took some part of it in clothes, and some part in meal or tea, or just what we required of money articles.

6366. What do you mean by money articles?-Groceries, or meal or bread, or anything of that kind.

6367. Why do you call them money articles?-Because it is not often that they are got for hosiery or anything of that sort.

6368. Is it a common way of speaking here, to call groceries money articles because they are not given for hosiery?-Tea is sometimes given for hosiery, and bread and meal. They will give a certain quantity of these money articles for hosiery if they are asked for.

6369. Is there a less price given for the hosiery if it is paid in money, or in money articles?-I don't know; I never asked or received money, for hosiery either here or elsewhere.

[Page 156]

6370. Is there a different price for kelp according as it is paid in money or in goods?-I have heard it said that it is 4s. in money, or 4s. 6d. in goods.

6371. Have you always got the price of it in goods?-Yes.

6372. Did you never get money for your kelp at all?-No; I never asked money, and I never got it.

6373. When is the kelp settled for?-We settle for it when we sell it.

6374. Do you sell it all in a lump at the end, or at different times during the season?-Perhaps we sell it every time we burn it, and we settle for it then.

6375. Do you go to the shop and say how much you have?-Yes. We tell the merchant how much we have, and he takes us in and pays us for it then.

6376. Is there anything marked into a book about it?-Nothing. We get payment for it when we sell it. If we are due anything to the merchant, he takes it off the price, and then we get the balance in whatever way we want.

6377. Do you take the whole value of it at the same time?- Sometimes, and sometimes not.

6378. How do you know whether you are due anything at the time?-We ascertain that from the books.

6379. Is there an account in your name in Mr. Anderson's books?-Yes; and if there is anything over at the end of the season, we get it.

6380. Is it paid to you in cash at the end of the season?-Yes; if there is anything due at the end of the season, we get it in cash.

6381. Have you ever got any cash from him at the end of the season?-I never asked it, because I just cleared off with him; and perhaps there was nothing due to me.

6382. Do you think you would be any better if you were paid in cash?-I don't know. I am getting so far on in years, that it is not much cash I would have to get now.

6383. Do you and your daughters agree to keep the same account?-Yes; the account is generally in my name.

6384. Who does your husband work for?-He has been at the fishing, and he has been doing land-work for different people. He was working last summer to an Orkney man, who was over here at the building of the church.

6385. Does he work at farm-work, or how?-He just works at day-work, or lime-work, or anything he can get.

6386. Is he a stone-mason?-He is just a day labourer; he is not a mason.

6387. Do you keep an account at the shop at Hillswick for all your provisions and all the soft goods you want?-I have no account there just now.

6388. But you say that you are paid for your kelp by being settled with in an account?-Yes; we are paid off then for what is due to us, and there is no other account kept until the following year.

6389. You say you have never asked to be paid in money: is it all the same to you whether you are paid in money or in goods?-It is all the same.

6390. Do you swear that it is all the same to you?-It has been the custom to pay in goods, and there is no other place we could go to where we could get the money, besides if we got the money, we would just give it back into the shop that was handiest.

6391. Did you tell any person that you were afraid to come here today?-No, I was not afraid to come.

6392. Did you get any advice from any person about speaking the truth when you came here?-No.

6393. Are you sure about that?-I came to speak the truth when I swore to do it.

6394. But before you came, did you say anything to any one about being afraid to come, and were you advised to speak the truth?-I know to speak the truth.

6395. But did you say anything to any person about being afraid to come here?-I cannot recollect. I said to Mr. Sutherland that I wondered there were no other women asked to come besides me because there are plenty in the place. Mr. Sutherland asked me if I got money for anything; and I said I never did, and that I never asked it either for knitting or for kelp. I told him that if I had asked it I did not know what might have been done; but I never did ask it, and Mr. Anderson knows himself that I never asked money for knitting. But when I was asked to come here, I was nowise afraid to come and tell the truth.

6396. Did you say to any one that you did not like to come, for fear of the merchant?-No, I did not say I was afraid for the merchant.

6397. What did you say about the merchant?-I said I did not know why other people should not come as well as me, and that I wondered why no other women were summoned but myself.

6398. Did Mr. Sutherland advise you to speak the truth when you come, and not be afraid?-I spoke to Mr. Sutherland, and told him I did not know where I had to come.

6399. Did Mr. Anderson speak to you about coming here this morning? Did you see him to-day?-Yes, I saw him, and I spoke to him here.

6400. What did he say to you?-Mr. Anderson told me to bring my pass-book, whatever state it was in; but it has not been used for some years.

6401. Was that it pass-book for the kelp?-Yes, it was it pass-book for the goods that were used for the family.

6402. Had you a pass-book some years ago?-Yes; it is in the house.

6403. But you don't enter your purchases in that pass-book now?-No.

6404. Do you generally buy what you want at Mr. Anderson's shop?-Yes.

6405. What do you buy there?-Meal or tea, or whatever I am needing.

6406. How do you pay for that? Do you pay in money?- Sometimes in money and sometimes in knitted things or in work which my husband does.

6407. Does your husband work for Mr. Anderson?-Sometimes.

6408. When he works a day's work to him, does he get his money for it, or is it put down in the account?-It is put down in the account.

6409. But you said you had no account?-Well, I have no account.

6410. Has your husband an account?-Yes; when I said I had no account, I meant that I had no account for kelp and hosiery, but there is an account in my husband's name.

6411. And when he works for Mr. Anderson, his day's work is put down in the account?-Yes.

6412. What does he work at?-Stone-work, or any other kind of house-building.

6413. Is that account settled in money or goods?-In goods. I don't believe he has ready money to get; he is due something.

6414. Is he generally due something?-Yes; he has been due something for a while.

6415. Is it generally for Mr. Anderson that he works?-Only sometimes.

6416. When he works for other people, is he paid in money?- Yes; when he works for Mr. Sutherland, or any man who has no shop, he gets ready money.

6417. But if he works for any one who has a shop, is he paid in goods?-He does not work for any one who has a shop, except Mr. Anderson.

6418. And he is not paid in money for that because he is due Mr. Anderson an account?-His work is put into the account, and he gets what he needs for the house.

6419. How many years has he been in that position?-I cannot say; I have not been settling for him.

6420. Has he been working in this neighbourhood for a number of years?-Yes; we came here from Lerwick about 1858.

6421. When did you begin to get into debt?-I cannot say, because my husband was at the fishing then.

6422 Is it long since he got into debt?-It is some years; but I cannot say how many, because I have not been settling his account.

[Page 157]

6423. Is his account settled every year?-Yes.

6424. At what time?-About Martinmas or the 1st November, just at the time when the fishermen are settled with.

6425. Do you know that there is generally a balance against your husband at the end of the year?-Yes.

6426. How much will that balance be?-I cannot say.

6427. Although there is that balance, you can still get what you want from the shop in the way of provisions or clothing?-Yes; when he is working for Mr. Anderson.

6428. Is he at liberty to work for any person here who will give him the highest wage?-Yes.

6429. There is no interference with him in respect to that?-No.

6430. Then it was your husband's pass-book that Mr. Anderson referred to when you came here today?-Yes; I told him I did not have it, but he said I should have brought it.

6431. But it is a good many years since anything was put into that pass-book?-It is.

6432. Is it your fault that the things were not entered?-He was not working for Mr. Anderson for some time about the time when the book was stopped. We were buying our meal and other things at some other place and we were not keeping regular accounts then.

6433. Why did you not put your things into the pass-book when you began again to deal at Hillswick? Could you not be bothered?-I don't know.

6434. Did you ask for a pass-book then?-No.

6435. Is your husband here?-No; he is off fishing at the long lines to-day.

6436. Is he one of a boat's crew there?-Yes.

6437. How many are there in that boat's crew?-I think there are four.

6438. Have they gone to fish on their own account?-Yes; they are just trying to get some fish for the house.

6439. He is not going to sell them?-No; he has not been in the habit of doing that.

6440. Are all the fish he catches in winter used for your own house?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, EUPHEMIA PETERSON, examined.

6441. Do you live at Hillswick with your father and mother?- Yes.

6442. Is your father a fisherman?-Yes.

6443. Has he a bit of land?-Yes.

6444. Do you sometimes knit?-Yes; it is not very much I knit; the most of it is for my father and brother.

6445. Do you sometimes sell your knitting?-Sometimes.

6446. Where do you sell it?-At a place called Hillyard, on the other side of Roeness Hill, to Laurence Smith.

6447. How are you paid for it?-I get perhaps 16d. or 18d. for a spencer.

6448. Do you get that in money?-No; in goods.

6449. What kind of goods?-Cotton.

6450. How many spencers will you take to Mr. Smith at a time?- Sometimes I only take one. I had three spencers with me the last time I went, at 16d. apiece.

6451. That was 4s. What did you get for that?-I bought 41/2 yards of white cotton; nothing else.

6452. Was that all you were to get for the 4s., or are you to go back again?-No; I just got it all in cotton.

6453. You had not an account there?-No.

6454. Was it common white cotton you got?-Yes.

6455. Do you remember what was the price of it per yard?-I don't remember.

6456. How long is that ago?-It is about three weeks ago, or perhaps more.

6457. Was the cotton a thing which you wanted at the time?-Yes.

6458. What did you do with it?-I made petticoats and other things with it.

6459. Was it fine cotton?-It was sheeting cotton.

6460. Do you never get money for your knitting at any time?-No; I never asked money for it.

6461. Do you knit with your own worsted?-Yes.

6462. Do you make the worsted yourself out of the wool of your own sheep?-Yes.

6463. Do you work at kelp?-I have been at it three times, but I am not working at it now.

6464. Did you sell the kelp yourself?-No. I wrought last with Maria Sandison, and we got 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it from Mr. Anderson.

6465. Were you paid by Mr. Anderson for the kelp you had made, or did Maria Sandison get the money for you?-She got it.

6466. Then you don't know how the price was settled?-No.

6467. Did you get money for your share of it?-Yes. I got 2s. 6d. one time; at another time I got 3s.; and I don't recollect what I got the other time.

6468. Did you get that money from Maria?-I got a line for it. I did not get any money, but I got goods for the line.

6469. I thought you said you got money?-They will give money if we ask for it, but I did not ask for the money.

6470. What did you ask for?-I took goods for it-cotton.

6471. Did you want the cotton?-Yes.

6472. Did you get the money from Maria Sandison?-No. She gave me a note, and I took it to the merchant.

6473. What was the note?-Just a bit of paper with some writing put down upon it.

6474. Was it signed by anybody?-It would be signed by the shopkeeper.

6475. And you took that to the shop and got what you wanted?- Yes.

6476. How much did you get?-I don't remember.

6477. How long ago is that?-I don't remember.

6478. Did you ever get any money for your kelp at all?-I never got any money; I never asked it.

6479. Why do you say that you never asked it?-Because I was just needing the cotton, and I took it.

6480. But why do you say that you never asked for it? Do you mean that you would have got it if you had asked?-Yes; I might have got it.

6481. How do you know?-There are some who have got it when they asked for it, but I never did.

6482. Do most of the women get money for their kelp?-I cannot say.

6483. What does your father do with his eggs?-He sells them.

6484. Have you a great quantity of eggs to sell?-Yes; in summer we have a good many.

6485. How many will you have in a week?-I cannot say.

6486. Do you generally take them to sell?-Sometimes.

6487. How many will you take at a time?-Perhaps a dozen or half a dozen.

6488. What do you get for them?-We sometimes get 6d. a dozen, but we have got 7d. We got that in the past summer.

6489. Do you get money for that?-We never take it in money; we just take in goods.

6490. Is that the way all the people hereabout do with their eggs?-I think it is the way that most of them do with them.

6491. Where do you take them to?-Sometimes to Mr. Anderson's, and sometimes to Laurence Smith's.

6492. Is Smith's farther away than Anderson's?-Yes; it is about two miles from us.,

6493. Do you get the same price from both places?-I got a halfpenny more from Laurence Smith.

6494. But the price was paid to you at both places in goods?-Yes.

6495. What kind of goods do you get for your eggs?-I cannot say; sometimes we take tea.

[Page 158]

6496. Do you just get the goods when you go, or is there an account kept?-We just get them when we go. We have no account at all.

6497. Is your father here to-day?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON, examined.

6498. You are a merchant and fish-curer in Hillswick?-I am.

6499. And you are the proprietor of the estate of Ollaberry?-No; I am only tacksman.

6500. Is Ollaberry in Northmavine parish?-Yes.

6501. Your brother, I understand, is proprietor of that estate?- Yes.

6502. Do you carry on business at Hillswick under a firm or in your own name?-In my own name.

6503. I presume the way in which you arrange for the payment of your fishermen is similar to that which prevails in other parts of Shetland-viz. that the fisherman engages to fish for you for the season at the summer fishing, and to receive payment for his fish in winter at the price then current after the sales have been made? -Yes.

6504. Is it the case also that the way in which you keep accounts with your fishermen is that a ledger account is opened in name of each man, in which the entries on one side consist of advances made to him for the purpose of outfit and lines, boat-hire when the boat is not his own, or for the price of the boat if he is buying it by instalments?-Yes.

6505. And on the other side is entered the price of his fish, and anything else that may be due to him by you?-Yes.

6506. Is there any further explanation you desire to make about the way in which these arrangements entered into and carried out between you and your fishermen?-I think that is all, except the inducement I have held out to fishermen to buy their own boats and lines. My practice for several years past has been that when they bought their own boats and lines, and were free of debt, I allowed them 6d. a cwt. extra on their fish.

6507. That is to say, that a fisherman who hires his boat, or one who is paying up the price of his boat by instalments, or who is in debt, is paid for his fish 6d. a cwt. less than one who is not in your books for boat-hire or for the price of his boat?-Yes.

6508. Is that intended as an inducement to a man to get clear of his boat-hire or of debts of that sort?-Yes, it was so intended by me.

6509. How long has that system been in operation?-I think since 1864.

6510. Have many of the fishermen got clear of their debts in consequence of that inducement, so far as you can judge by your experience?-I think so.

6511. You think that system has had a beneficial effect?-I think so, judging from the diminution of the debts. I have taken the last four years, and struck an average with regard to that.

6512. You have made a calculation applying to the last four years, showing what?-Showing the degree in which the fishermen have reduced their debts. I don't have that calculation with me here.

6513. Was it made for your own private use?-Yes. I wanted to see whether I was correct in giving the fishermen that advantage, and I found that the average amount to which the fishermen were in debt was £13 each year.

6514. Was that an average only of those who were in debt?-Yes.

6515. And your calculation showed that the average debt of each fisherman was £13 this year?-Not this year, but taking the average for four years.

6516. I understood it was entered into for the purpose of comparison with the period before the system you have now mentioned was introduced?-No. The calculation I made was for the purpose of satisfying myself whether I was correct in giving that 6d. per cwt. in advance extra.

6517. Then do you find that the fishermen who are in your debt now were indebted to you to the amount of £13 on an average?- Yes.

6518. Are you of opinion that that is a less amount of debt per man than existed before that system introduced?-I am.

6519. Did you enter into any calculation over period of years before the introduction of the system, in order to compare it with the state of matters during the last four years, or have you made that comparison just from your general knowledge?-Just from my general knowledge. I did not make the calculation so accurately for the previous period as for the last four years.

6520. But you are clearly of opinion that the amount of debt before that system was introduced was greater than it is now?-I am clearly of that opinion.

6521. How many of the men do you calculate are now in your debt to that average extent?-I am not able to answer that question exactly.

6522. Can you not give an approximation to the number?-I am afraid not.

6523. How many men do you employ altogether in the ling and cod fishing in summer?-I have no cod fishing,-only ling fishing, in which I think I employ about 120 or 130 men.

6524. Is that at Hillswick, or at all your stations?-At Hillswick.

6525. But you have stations at other places?-Hillswick is the business place, but we have fishing stations at different places-at Roeness Voe, Hillyard, Hamnavoe, and Stenness.

6526. Have you none at Ollaberry?-Only in winter time. We get some fish there in winter-principally small fish, cod, and some ling.

6527. You said that you don't send men to the cod fishing?-No.

6528. How do you distinguish between the cod fishing proper and the cod which you get in winter?-There are different names for the different kinds of fishing. The Faroe fishing is a different thing from the home fishing.

6529. But some people subdivide the summer fishing into more than one kind?-There is cod fished for in the voes near the coast during the winter, but they are generally a smaller size than the Faroe cod.

6530. Is that what you call the winter fishing?-Yes.

6531. Was that what you spoke of just now when you said you did not send men to the cod fishing?-I meant I did not send men to the Faroe fishing.

6532. Then by the ling fishing you mean the summer fishing?- Yes.

6533. And in that the men catch cod and tusk?-Very few; and what they get are thin and of an inferior quality.

6534. But ling is the staple fish that is caught at that time?-Yes.

6535. Your accounts with your men are settled annually in November or December?-Yes.

6536. Do you find that the majority of your men have then a cash balance to receive, or are they in arrear?-I am afraid I must acknowledge that the majority of them are in arrear.

6537. Do you think the system of paying at such a long interval of time has any effect in causing the men to be so deeply in your debt?-I don't think so.

6538. Do you think it is their own choice or their own habits that is the occasion of it?-I daresay there are various causes that contribute to it. There may be some improvidence among them; there may be afflictions among them of various kinds. There may be men getting married, and getting families; and it is a sore time with them when their children are small.

6539. Have you ever considered whether a system of shorter payments could be introduced in your business which might encourage habits of economy and foresight, and lead the men to keep out of debt?-I have given that point some careful consideration.

6540. You have already said that you introduced a [Page 159] system of giving a premium to your men who were free of debt?- Yes.

6541. But has any other plan for bringing about the end occurred to you?-I don't think there is any other.

6542. Are you aware that the men sometimes express a wish that they should know the price of fish earlier in the season than is the case at present?-Yes. That has been expressed to me sometimes by the men themselves.

6543. Do you think that would have any beneficial effect?-I don't think it. In the winter fishing we have paid for the fish as soon as the men came on shore with them, but I was not aware that they saved any of that cash in consequence of receiving it at once, any more than they would have done if it had been put to account.

6544. Is the winter fishing generally paid in cash?-Yes if the men require it.

6545. Is it more commonly paid for in cash at the time of delivery than is the case in the other fisheries?-The men have the choice of getting cash or goods, just as they like, for their winter fish.

6546. I rather understand they have the choice of getting cash or goods in the other fishings as well at any time if they like: is not that so?-I think not. I think they would not get cash unless they were clear men, or unless we had good cause to know that they were really in necessity for something.

6547. But during the course of the summer fishing are they allowed advances in goods as they require them?-Yes.

6548. Even though they should be to some extent in your debt?- Yes.

6549. If a man is clear at the end of a season, and is fishing for you during the following season, is it usual to give him advances in cash to account of his fishing as often as they are asked?-Yes.

6550. Is it ever the case that a man who is in that position gets some payents in cash throughout the season, and is paid the whole balance in cash at the end, and has no account at your shop at all?-I think not. I have never been aware of any case of that kind.

6551. Is that because the man necessarily has to apply to you for an outfit for the fishing at the beginning of the year, such as lines or boats; or is it because he may have an account for necessaries to his family?-He is not obliged to get his outfit or his necessaries from me unless he likes. There is no obligation upon him.

6552. But, in point of fact, he generally does get an outfit from you?-Yes; we are always glad to get them to buy an outfit from us.

6553. Whether he gets a boat or not, I suppose the general rule is that he takes his outfit from you?-Yes; that is the general practice.

6554. Is a man expected to do that when he is engaged to fish for you?-I certainly would expect it but he is under no obligation whatever.

6555. If a man were engaging with you to fish for the summer, and getting his outfit elsewhere, say at Lerwick, would that make any difference in the way in which you would deal with him afterwards?-None whatever.

6556. Would he be just as likely to get an engagement from you in the following year, and as good a price for his fish?-Yes.

6557. I understand you have the largest shop in this parish?-I am scarcely able to answer that, but I suppose it is the largest in this district. Messrs. Hay & Co., at North Roe have an extensive business also.

6558. Is North Roe as populous a district as Hillswick?-Yes.

6559. Then there is the shop of Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes; that is a larger business than mine.

6560. And Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at Mossbank?-Yes.

6561. Do these shops rank in size along with yours?-Yes; and Hay & Co.'s shop at North Roe.

6562. But there are smaller shops throughout the country not kept by fish-curers?-Yes. Mr. Peter Robertson, Sullem, and Mr. Gilbert Nicholson, Ollaberry, are not fish-curers. Mr. Nicholson has been engaged in that business to, but not on his own account.

6563. Do these shopkeepers sometimes buy fish?-I think so. I think Mr. Nicholson buys cured fish in the winter, near the sea.

6564. Is it a common opinion that there is a good deal of smuggling of fish by fishermen during the fishing season?-I believe it is.

6565. Is that done for the purpose of getting payment in ready money; or is the inducement for it, that they get a larger price by disposing of their fish, in that way?-I don't think the payment of ready money is the inducement, because for many years past it has been my practice to send out money to the factor, with which to pay the men for whatever fish they wanted to sell,-that is to say, to clear any little bits of debt they had to pay at the station.

6566. But the men that you spoke of are bound by their engagement at the beginning of the year to deliver all their fish to you?-That is an understood thing, I believe; but I don't think it has ever been acted upon.

6567. Are they at liberty to sell their fish to others?-They generally take that liberty.

6568. So that only those fish go into the account which are weighed by your factor?-Yes.

6569. Do your factors at these fishing stations pay ready money for any large quantity of fish that is delivered to them?-I don't think there are any large quantities paid for in ready money. I believe the men generally give fish in that way to procure supplies. Perhaps they might think my goods were not equal to Mr. Adie's or those of other merchants, and they might give a few fish in that way to these merchants in order to get money with which to clear off their little bits of accounts there.

6570. That is to say, a man fishing for Mr. Adie might sell a few fish to your factor in that way, or one of your men might sell to Mr. Adie just in the same way, in order to get a little money for his present needs?-Yes.

6571. Can you give me any idea from your books to what extent that sort of ready-money payment goes on during the summer season?-I could scarcely say. I should think that perhaps £5 or £6 would cover the whole of that for the entire season, because there are some of the men fishing to me who will ask the factor to give them a pound in cash or so just at the end of the season.

6572. Therefore they don't require to smuggle the fish so much as one might suppose?-No.

6573. Do you consider that the tenants on the Ollaberry estate are obliged by the terms of their leases to fish to you only?-I do not; although I think I have it in my power to compel them to fish if I wished to do so.

6574. Do you think you have that in your power by the terms of their leases?-I think there is only man who has a lease at present.

6575. Or by the terms of the contract under which they sit on the land?-I think that is understood.

6576. That is a part of their bargain?-It is not part of their bargain, but I think it is understood.

6577. When a man is in your debt in the way you have spoken of, do you think he has a stronger inducement to deal at your shop for the goods he requires, and to agree to fish for you during the following season, than another man who is not in debt?-I am not very sure about that.

6578. I suppose you would consider it fair that man who is in your debt should deliver his fish to you rather than to another, in order that he might pay off your debt?-Certainly.

6579. And also that he should take his supplies from your shop, so far as necessary?-Yes, I would expect that.

6580. Is it also the feeling among the men generally, that they are inclined to deal with a person who has advanced them money or goods in a bad season? [Page 160]-I think they would have no objection to deal in that way.

6581. You I would probably have rather to keep them within limits in their dealing, for fear they should get too much?-Yes, I think that is quite right.

6582. Perhaps they have no credit elsewhere?-I daresay they might have credit elsewhere too. Probably they might have other things, such as produce of different kinds from their farms with which to clear off their small accounts in other quarters, and which might not come my way.

6583. Do you not deal considerably in farm produce yourself?- Yes; in cattle and other things.

6584. Do you send them south?-Yes.

6585. Do you purchase these generally for cash, or do your purchases in that way enter the accounts of the men who fish for you?-That just depends on the way the men want them. I make a practice of purchasing all stock for cash; but if they wanted it entered in their accounts, I do so.

6586. Are these purchases generally made at periodical sales?- Yes, we have two sales in the year at Ollaberry; but I purchase a good many cattle and horses just at any place where I can get them through the parish.

6587. Suppose you made purchases of that kind from a man who owed you a certain amount in your books, would these purchases enter your books to his credit, or would they be paid in cash?- That will depend upon our bargain. If a man said to me, I have a cow to sell, and one part of the price I want to go to pay my rent, and the other part I want put into my account, I would do that for him. I have done that frequently, although the man was in my debt.

6588. You said there were 120 fishermen in your books at Hillswick?-That was a mere random guess; I could not speak to it positively.

6589. Have you a number of men in your books at other places?- Yes, at Ollaberry; but that shop is under a different firm Anderson & Co.

6590. Is that shop kept by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.

6591. Do you take the principal oversight of the business there?-I do.

6592. Then, when you spoke of the fishermen on the Ollaberry estate being obliged to fish to you, I suppose you meant that they were bound to fish for that firm?-Yes.

6593. Is there any other station besides Ollaberry where you have a shop and fishermen upon your books?-No other station, except the fishing stations I have already mentioned.

6594. These are not permanent establishments, but are only kept up for the summer season?-There is a man who takes winter fish at Stenness and at Hamnavoe.

6595. But there are not so many men residing there?-No.

6596. And it is only from those who reside on the spot there that you receive fish in winter?-Yes.

6597. How many men may be engaged in the fishing at the Ollaberry station, and who are entered in your books as employed by you?-Probably between 50 and 60.

6598. Then you may have about 300 fishermen the summer fishing, including the other stations you have mentioned?-I think scarcely so many.

6599. One of the books which you have produced here is a woman's book?-Yes.

6600. That has relation to hosiery and kelp?-Yes.

6601. You have not brought any books relating to the fishing business, but I suppose you will be ready to show them if you are asked?-Certainly.

6602. In what way do you engage your beach boys?-Some of them are engaged about December, but perhaps it is the spring before we get them all. We engage them for an annual fee,-that is to say, a fee for three months in summer, or for summer and harvest. The rates we pay them vary from about 45s. to £10 for time summer and harvest.

6603. Do those to whom you pay £10 have charge of the curing?- Yes; I have given the whole range.

6604. There are two classes of them-the beach-boys proper, and the men who are skilled at the work?-Yes; and the man who has charge of the curing.

6605. Are both those classes settled with at the end of the year?- Yes.

6606. Do the men employed in the curing get payment before the end of the year?-No.

6607. I believe at some establishments the men employed are paid by weekly wages?-I am not aware of that.

6608. Do you open an account with them in the same way as with the other people employed by you?-Yes.

6609. And if they want supplies they get them at your shop?-Yes.

6610. Do you find that the amount of debt upon these accounts is greater or less than in the case of ordinary fishermen?-We generally strive not to allow them to get into debt.

6611. I don't mean the amount of debt above their salary, but the amount of debt they incur for furnishings in the course of the year: is that greater or less than the amount due to them for their fee?-I think it is generally less, taking the whole cases together. There may be some cases where they fall behind little, but there are others again who have money to get.

6612. Have they generally a considerable balance to receive in money at the end of the year?-No; when boy has paid for his clothes and provisions, he will not have very much to receive.

6613. Does a beach boy generally require an outfit of clothing at the beginning?-Yes.

6614. Is it the sons of your fishermen whom you generally employ as beach boys?-Very often, but not necessarily; I just engage any one I can get.

6615. Is there a sufficient supply of them?-There has always been hitherto.

6616. When a boy who is engaged for the first year gets more goods than the amount of his fee, does he usually engage to work for you in the same employment next year?-No.

6617. You are aware, I suppose that that has been alleged as the commencement of the system of debt which is said to prevail in Shetland?-I am perfectly aware of that.

6618. Is it not consistent with your experience that a boy who overdraws his account in that way continues to serve you as a beach boy?-I am sorry to say it is not, because sometimes he goes elsewhere and leaves a balance standing.

6619. Is that a frequent thing?-I cannot say it is a very frequent thing. I am glad to say that a great amount of honesty prevails among the people generally.

6620. But is it not quite possible that he might go elsewhere and pay his account to you from the wages he receives elsewhere?-It is quite possible.

6621. Does that ever happen?-I think it has happened with me.

6622. Is a boy free to do that if he chooses?-Perfectly free.

6623. But, in point of fact, do the majority of boys who are so engaged, and who overdraw their accounts during the first year, remain in your service and work on until their account is paid up?-I could scarcely say that that is so with the majority.

6624. But many of them do?-Many of them do, I think.

6625. Do they generally get further into your books, or do they very often clear off their debt as they grow older and get larger wages?-I think they often clear off their debt.

6626. Is it boy at the commencement likely, from his circumstances, to incur a larger debt in the first year than after a year or two, in proportion to his earnings?-I think not. It depends, however, a great deal upon the parents. If a boy has poor parents, who cannot afford to give him much clothing the first year, to keep him warm, he must get these things from me and perhaps he may fall behind, and yet be a very honest boy.

[Page 161]

6627. But what I was pointing at is this, that a boy may require some outfit at the beginning of his career, and that he would probably incur some debt?-That is true in some cases, but not in all. A boy has been at the beach, and then he goes to the haaf; perhaps the first year or two he will require to fall a little behind; but if he is an honest, provident lad, he will soon clear off that.

6628. I understand you are a purchaser of kelp to some extent?- Yes.

6629. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day on that subject?-Yes.

6630. Was that evidence correct with regard to the manner in which the kelp is paid for; or do you wish to make any correction or addition to it?-It was perfectly correct, so far as the prices go. 4s. is the cash price, and 4s. 6d. is the goods price which we pay for it.

6631. You pay for it either in cash or goods?-Yes.

6632. In which way do you make the greater part of your payments for kelp?-I should think the greater part would be in goods

6633. Is that because you allow a higher price in goods, and the people prefer taking that higher price?-Certainly. I have no doubt they prefer it; otherwise they would not take it in that way

6634 I suppose if they got it in cash, they could not spend it very easily anywhere else than in your own store?-There are various shops round about where they could go to.

6635. Has that difference in the price of kelp been of long continuance?-I think there has not been very much difference on it for several years.

6636 But has it been long the practice to give an advanced price if payment is taken in goods?-Yes; that has always been the case during my experience. There have always been two prices, at least at Hillswick.

6637. Have you any lease of the kelp shores?-Yes; all round from Roeness Voe to Mavisgrind, on the Busta estate.

6638 Do you generally employ women, or allow any women to gather kelp and burn it?-Yes; sometimes men do it also.

6639. But they are not at liberty to gather it for any one except yourself?-No; that is quite understood.

6640. Have you to pay a lordship to the landlord for the kelp?- Yes; 15s. per ton.

6641. You do something in the hosiery business also, and you have brought your women's book to show how that business is conducted?-Yes.

6642. Is the hosiery always paid in goods?-Not always.

6643. Have you any idea what amount is usually paid in cash?- There is very little cash paid. Our general practice is, not to pay cash for hosiery, but to give goods only.

6644. Is that because you consider you have a very small profit on the hosiery?-Yes.

6645. What percentage do you calculate you have upon it?-I am afraid my experience has been, that I have never had any profit upon it. I have a profit on the goods, but not on the hosiery.

6646. Do you sell your hosiery generally to firms in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-In London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or any place where we can get it sold.

6647. But you sell it direct to retail houses in these places, and not through Lerwick merchants?-Yes.

6648. Do you employ women to knit for you, and give out wool to them?-No.

6649. Yours is exclusively a purchase business?-Yes.

6650. Do you make a bargain for the article, whatever it may be, on the understanding that the woman is to take goods for it?-Yes, that is the understanding; but still I have paid cash in a good many cases.

6651. If you want a very fine article for any particular purpose, do you then sometimes agree to pay in cash?-Yes; if they wanted cash for that, we would give it.

6652. Would you give a lower rate in cash than in goods?-Yes.

6653. What difference might there be?-I cannot tell.

6654. Will it be 2s. or 3s. in the pound?-I should think so.

6655. Are you often asked to give cash for hosiery?-No.

6656. Do the people who bring it generally want goods?-Yes, they want goods; but the practice may arise too from their knowing that the understanding is, that they only get goods for the hosiery.

6657. In the case of a woman not wanting the goods at the time, is the article she brings entered to her account, or how is it dealt with?-It is entered to her account.

6658. She has a ledger account of her own in your books?-Yes.

6659. Or a pass-book?-Yes; many of them have pass-books.

6660. When a young woman begins to knit in that way, and to deal with you, does her account generally run on for a succession of years?-Yes, very often.

6661. Is it in what you call the women's book that these accounts are entered?-Yes.

6662. The goods supplied to them, I presume, are mostly soft goods?-Yes; soft goods and groceries.

6663. Do you give the same value in groceries hosiery as in soft goods?-No; not the same value.

6664. Is it part of the bargain at the beginning, whether the payment is to be taken in groceries or in soft goods?-There is no agreement of that sort.

6665. If a woman asks for groceries, what do you do?-We just give them to her.

6666. But you say you don't give the same value in groceries as in soft goods?-Not exactly the same value.

6667. Do you mean that when she gets groceries, you give them to her at a higher price?-Yes.

6668. You add something to the price for which you would sell them to a cash customer?-Yes.

6669. Or to a fisherman who keeps an account?-Yes.

6670. A fisherman keeping an account would get his groceries at a different price from a seller of hosiery?-Yes.

6671. Do you not think that a cash system for all these matters would be simpler and more convenient for all parties concerned?-I don't see that there would be any gain to the purchaser. Suppose a woman came in with hosiery of the value of 5s. and got cash for it, she would require to go either to my shop or to some other shop with it for her goods.

6672. But if she had cash, she might purchase her goods in Lerwick or in Edinburgh, or possibly, if the trade were not in so few hands, there might be a greater competition?-There might.

6673. And she could lay out her cash in the way that was most to her own advantage?-That might be so; but then I would not give her so much in cash for her hosiery, so that I don't see where her gain would be.

6674. Is it mostly in provisions or in goods that the hosiery is paid?-I should say that it is mostly in goods.

6675. Is the account which a woman, knitting in that way, runs up entirely distinct from the account kept by her parents?-Quite distinct.

6676. If she is living in family with her father, is he considered responsible for her debt if the balance is against her?-No.

6677. Have you known any case of such a debt being enforced against the father?-I am not aware of any, and I don't think it could be enforced against him.

6678. Or demanded from him?-I don't think it could be demanded either, legally. But the necessity does not exist for girls buying groceries. These are generally bought by the father or brothers; and the girl is left free to have her knitting to clothe herself with. It is all the wages she gets.

6679. Show me the way in which the women's book is kept?- [Produces women's book]

[Page 162]

6680. Each woman has her name entered there, and on one side of the account are entered the articles which she gets?-Yes.

6681. I see that some women make home-spun tweed?-Yes

6682. Do you purchase a quantity of that also?-Yes.

6683. Is it also paid for in goods?-No; it is paid for in cash if required.

6684. But at a cash price?-Yes.

6685. In this case [showing] it was entered in the book?-Yes.

6686. Was that because the party wanted goods, or was there any particular reason for it?-She was not sure when she gave the tweed, whether she might require the whole of it in goods. She wanted meal, I think, and some other goods.

6687. Are your dealings in cloth with the people the country very extensive?-I buy a good deal of it occasionally, when the trade is brisk.

6688. Is it paid for regularly in cash?-Yes.

6689. Do your purchases of it not appear in this book?-There may be some of them there.

6690. But are the majority of your purchases of that sort of cloth entered here?-Possibly they may appear in the men's ledger more frequently, unless when the cloth is bought over the counter.

6691. If it is paid for in cash, why does it appear in any ledger?- What is paid for cash does not appear in any ledger.

6692. Does it not appear in your day-book?-No, it does not enter our day-book. We just buy it the same as we buy any hosiery. For instance, if a girl brings it in, she may require the value of it in goods; that is a separate transaction, finished at once, and there is no more trace of it.

6693. Is the cloth almost all of the same quality?-It is all very much the same.

6694. Do you ticket each web at the time when you take it in?- Yes.

6695. Then I understand you to say, that the great bulk of your dealings in cloth are cash transactions?-Yes, I think the bulk of them, or they are settled for at the time in goods.

6696. Is tea a very usual article for the knitters to take out their payments in?-I think it is. They often take tea.

6697. Have you known any cases in which the goods or tea so obtained for hosiery were sold or disposed of for cash?-I think I have not.

6698. It is probably not so necessary for them to do so when they can get provisions for their hosiery, as when they are only paid in soft goods?-Perhaps not; but it is not very likely I would learn that that was done, even if it was the case.

6699. When a woman has sold you some hosiery goods or cloth, and does not want goods in exchange to the full value at the time, is it the practice in your shop to issue any line or acknowledgment for the balance?-I believe that is done occasionally.

6700. Is the line in the form of an order to credit the bearer with so much in goods?-Yes.

6701. Are these lines or vouchers generally brought back by the party to whom they were given?-I think so.

6702. Are they ever brought back by another?-I think not; because we know all the people, and they could not impose on us in that way.

6703. But if the party to whom the line was issued had handed it over for a consideration to another party, that would be no imposition upon you?-No; but still we would know whether it was done or not, that is to say, we would suspect something amiss. If it was presented by another person than one of the woman's own family, we would naturally suppose there was something suspicious about it.

6704. Do these lines bear to be payable to any particular person?- Yes; we always mention in them the name of the person who has sold us the goods. However, it is perhaps right to state that that is not very much practised in our shop.

6705. I think you said there were not many little shops in this district?-There are a few. Arthur Harrison has a shop within two miles of me; Laurence Smith has a shop within three miles; and Jack Anderson has a shop within five miles to the westward.

6706. Are all these on the Busta estate?-Yes. Jack Anderson rents a booth belonging to Ollaberry.

6707. Is there any difficulty or any obstruction placed in the way of small shopkeepers getting premises and carrying on their business in this district?-There seems not to have been any lately. When I took a lease of Hillswick, I thought I had an understanding that Mr. Cheyne was not to put up other places of business in the district, but there was no sort of agreement about it and that understanding has not been acted upon.

6708. Do you refer to shops or fish-curing establishments?-Not fish-curing establishments; there is no restriction upon them.

6709. Any person may set up a business of that sort?-I think so.

6710. You have been present and heard the whole of the evidence that has been given to-day: is there any part of it with regard to which you wish to make any statement or contradiction?-There is nothing that I am aware of.

6711. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-I am.

6712. Do most of your fishermen subscribe to that society?-A good many of them do.

6713. Is their annual subscription debited to them in their account?-Yes, very frequently.

6714. When they have anything to get from the society, how is that payment settled with them?-That I daresay depends very much upon their own wishes.

6715. Does it depend to any extent on the fact, whether or not they are indebted to you at the time?-I don't think it does generally.

6716. But it may sometimes?-It may sometimes.

6717. That is to say, supposing a man who loses his boat has a sum to receive in cash from the society, which passes through your hands, it may be written down to square off your account?-No. It may be entered to his credit in the account; but I think, if the matter was searched into, it would be found that in that case it was to square off for some boat he had got before, and which he had not paid for.

6718. And not his ordinary shop account?-No.

6719. Therefore, you say that you would retain the money if he was in debt to you for a boat?-Yes.

6720. But you would not retain it if he was only in debt to you for shop goods?-I think not.

6721. What is your reason for making that distinction?-I think it is nothing but simple justice to myself. It would certainly be very unreasonable for a man to get remuneration for a boat from the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society while the same boat was standing unpaid for in my books.

6722. Would the same principle not apply to the case of an account which a man owed to you?-No doubt the man would be entitled to pay me that account; but I would certainly consider it a great hardship if I had to pay that money over to a man who had an account standing due in my books for the very boat for the loss of which the money was given.

6723. Have you ever had any dispute with the fishermen about the payment of that money, or any complaints that it was not settled for in cash?-I don't think I have, within my recollection. I think there was one man who said something about it at one time; but after I had showed to him what I considered to be the justice of the matter, I fancied he was satisfied, and never heard any more about it.

6724. What is the other book you have brought with you?-It is a boat-book, merely for entries relating to the boats.

6725. How are the boat-builders paid? Do they run accounts with you in the same way as the fishermen?-I think so.

6726. Are they paid by weekly wages?-No; they are paid so much for building a boat.

6727. What does their contract generally amount to?-We furnish the wood, and merely pay them for [Page 163] their work. I think we generally pay £3 for the work on a six-oared boat.

6728. When you enter into a contract for the building of a boat, does the man open an account, or is it generally the case that he has an account already running?-The builder I employ generally has an account running.

6729. Are his family and himself supplied with goods from your shop from time to time?-Only occasionally. I think the boats are paid for mostly in cash. Probably he would get a few pounds from me if he was requiring them, and then he would come and build boats for me afterwards.

6730. Are the boat-builders a class of men by themselves, who work at nothing else?-Yes.

6731. Do they travel about the country?-Yes.

6732. Are they not employed by you all the year round?-No.

6733. Then, they generally get an advance of money from you before they begin work for you?-I don't say generally, but I say the particular builder I employ has done that sometimes.

6734. So that, when his boat is finished, he has generally nothing to get?-No; he has something to get still, because he is building more than one at a time.

6735. But during the time he is building them, he has an account at your shop for necessaries to his family?-Yes.

6736. What is the other book you have there?-It is a ledger for the purpose of entering anything into-goods supplied to a family.

6737. Are these the families of your fishermen?-Yes; or it may be others that we intend to have short accounts.

6738. But these accounts are only for goods supplied: there is nothing entered that is due to them?-No.

6739. The other side of the account is not in this book at all?-No.

6740. And the fishermen's ledger is quite different?-Yes.

6741. It is a large book?-Yes.

6742. Is there a separate ledger for beach boys and men employed in fish-curing?-Yes.

6743. Is there also a separate ledger for the kelp women?-No; their accounts are entered in the women's book unless they are paid right off.

6744. Show me the account of one of these kelp women in the women's book: take Mrs. Hughson?-I don't think she ever had anything to get, and therefore we would not enter her name in the book.

6745. Take Maria Sandison, who was spoken of today?-I think her account was kept on a slip of paper or in a small book, until they got it squared off, and then it was entered.

6746. I see there is nothing about kelp in her account?-No, I fancy it was just paid off at the time.

6747. Is there anything else you wish to say?-It has been asserted that the fish-curers paid no cash, and that scarcely a coin passed between the curer and the fisherman. That was said before the Truck Commissioners in Edinburgh. Now, I would wish to show what amount of cash I have paid since I began to settle this year. I think the cash I paid during the settling time in November and December last amounted to £1006.

6748. What was it in previous years?-I cannot tell for every year; but I know that for the whole year, in 1866, I paid £1811 in cash, and in 1870 I paid £2040. I think the highest I paid to one man this season was £24, 7s. 9d. in cash at settlement.

6749. Was that much higher than the average?-It must have been higher. Perhaps I may be allowed to say also, that I think the great bar to improvement in Shetland is the want of leases. In my opinion, a Land Bill for Shetland-an Act somewhat resembling the Irish Land Bill-would be very useful, by which all improvements could be held to belong to the tenant instead of to the proprietor; because as soon as a tenant here begins to improve his farm, he is very likely to have his rent raised upon him.

6750. Have you known cases in which the rent has been raised upon an improving tenant?-Yes. I am not prepared just now to give names, but I think I have met with several cases of that kind.

6751. What is the bar to the introduction of a system of leases in Shetland, which, you say, would greatly improve the country?- There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the proprietors to give lease. I have known several parties who have asked for leases and have not got them.

6752. Has the unwillingness of the proprietors to give leases anything to do with the fishing?-I don't think it.

6753. On some properties are not yearly tenants under an obligation to fish, which might be interfered with, or which might not be so easily enforceable, there were leases?-That shows the necessity granting leases.

6754. But is not the objection of proprietors to grant leases due to some extent to the fact, that it would be less easy to enforce the obligation to fish if leases existed?-Perhaps it is, but even on those estates where there is no such obligation leases are not granted.

6755. Is there a general desire on the part of fishermen-farmers in Shetland to have leases?-I cannot say that exactly. I think there is such desire in many cases, but then they fear that their rent would be raised if a lease were granted.

6756. Have there been any cases of leases being granted or offered in which ground has been given for that apprehension?-I think so, although I could not name them just now.

6757. Have there been any attempts made recently in Shetland to introduce leases on a larger scale than they at present exist?- Not within my knowledge. With regard to the Ollaberry property, I find there are only 33 out of 71 tenants who fish either to Anderson & Co. or to me.

6758. Are you aware whether the other 38 tenants fish at all?- There are some of them who do not fish, but there are others of them who do, and who are ling fishers. The man Blance who was examined goes to Faroe and I think another man too.

6759. Do many of them go to Faroe?-No; not many.

6760. They are not obliged to engage with any particular person at the Faroe fishing?-No.

6761. In the evidence to which you have referred as having been given in Edinburgh, there is a statement that leases were offered on a large estate in Delting or in Yell, but that the bulk of the tenants would not accept of them: do you know the reason of that?-Because, I suspect, they were suspicious of the factor.

6762. The statement was, 'Ten years was mentioned as the minimum length of the lease, because the people were frightened to take leases; but when any one came and asked for a longer lease, I gave it to him. No one would take a longer lease than fourteen years, and I have given none longer than fourteen.' Can you suggest any other reason than that you have named for the tenants declining leases on these estates?-I think it must have been because under the leases, all improvements were to be held to belong to the landlord.

6763. But they belong to the landlord at present?-True; but what I mean is, that that is the great bar to improvements in Shetland.

6764. Do you think it is possible for a man to improve his land much who is employed for four or five months in the year fishing?-I think it is. His time in winter is almost thrown away at present; but if he had the security of getting the value of his labour at the end of his lease or on removing, I think he would work actively and improve his land. There are many, I know, who have regretted that they could not spend their time in that way.

6765. Is it not possible for a tenant who wants to improve his land to make some contract with his landlord on the subject?-I have never been aware of any case where that has been done.

6766. Have you the management of the Ollaberry estate in your own hands?-Yes.

6767. Have you made any effort to induce the people [Page 164] there to take leases, or offered them compensation for improvements?-I have not offered them compensation. I could not do that; but I have told them that the understanding on which they held their lands was this-that if they made improvements, either in cultivating the land, keeping up their fences, or repairing their houses, their rents would not be raised during my lease.

6768. You have only a lease of Ollaberry?-Yes, for nineteen years.

6769. Has your intimation to the tenants, that their rents would not be raised if they improved their holdings, had a beneficial effect?-I think it has in some cases; that is to say, they have kept up their fences very well, and I know some parties who have added to their cultivated ground.

6770. Do you think that has been done to a greater extent than would have been the case if you had held out no such inducement to them?-I would fancy so.

6771. Is there any other suggestion or statement you wish to make?-I think not.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, PETER PETERSON, examined.

6772. Are you a fisherman at Hillswick?-Not present. I am at Hillyar now. I live at Hillswick, but I am not fishing there.

6773. Have you got any land?-Yes; a small piece in Hillswick from Mr. Gifford.

6774. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Laurence Smith at Hillyar at present.

6775. Is he a large curer?-No; he has only two boats fishing for him. I have been fishing for him two years now.

6776. For whom did you fish before?-For Mr. Anderson.

6777. Why did you leave off fishing for him?-I got into debt, and was refused supplies from him; and, as I could not do without supplies for my family, I went to another man.

6778. Why would you not pay your debt to Mr. Anderson?-I did not make a sufficient fishing to pay it, and I had no great means to work on either: I had no boat.

6779. What was the amount of your debt?-£17, 9s. 5d.

6780. And when it came to that amount, he refused you supplies?-Yes.

6781. At what time of the year was that?-In the summer time, during the fishing season.

6782. Did you settle with him at the end of that season?-Yes.

6783. Did you clear off what was due by you at that settlement, or was there still something due to Mr. Anderson?-£17, 9s. 5d. was the debt I left when I went away from him. I continued to fish the season out, and left him when the season was done.

6784. But you made a settlement at the end of the season?-Yes.

6785. What was the result of that settlement?-He made out that I was due him £17, 9s. 5d, and he summoned me for it.

6786. Did you ask him how much was due at the time when he stopped the supplies?-No.

6787. Then, the sum you have mentioned was due after he had allowed you credit for all the fish of that season?-Yes.

6788. So that, at the time when he stopped the supplies, there would be a larger sum than that due by you?-There may have been.

6789. Were you asked to engage to fish to him after that?-No.

6790. What was his reason for summoning you?-I don't know. I was not asked to fish to him again, so that I had to look out for myself some other way, and I went to Smith and got supplies from him.

6791. Was there a decree against you in the action in which Mr Anderson summoned you?-No, I have not got any yet.

6792. Was the case not decided against you?-I don't think it. At least I left it unsettled in the hands of Mr. Spence, the lawyer, when I left the town.

6793. Is the case not at an end yet?-I don't know. Mr. Spence was to give me notice but I have got none yet.

6794. What was the nature of your defence in that case?-I was not able to pay, and therefore I was forced to appear in Lerwick before the court. Very likely, if I had been in a good boat the last season I fished for him, I would have done somewhat better.

6795. But was the debt really due for which you were summoned?-I did not have any pass-book, and got no copy of my account, so that I could not say whether it was due or not.

6796. Did you ever ask for a pass-book?-I have asked for copies of my account.

6797. Did you get them?-At one time I got a copy of my account for nine years.

6798. Had your debt been running on increasing for nine years?- It was always increasing.

6799. Have you got these accounts here, or are they in your lawyer's hands?-They are in Mr. Spence's hands in Lerwick.

6800. How often did you ask for them before you got the accounts for the nine years?-I asked for them when I was summoned.

6801. Had you ever asked for them before?-Yes; I had asked for them sometimes, but not every year.

6802. Did you always get them when you asked for them?-No; I got none until I got the whole at one time.

6803. Why did you not get them when you asked for them?-I don't know; I never was refused them, but I did not get them.

6804. Were you just put off?-Yes.

6805. Did you fish for Mr. Anderson all the time these accounts were running up?-Yes. The commencement of the debt was when I lost a fleet of lines by bad weather. There might have been a little due before that, but it was very little.

6806. How much do you call a fleet of lines?-Just what the boat carries. A boat takes 108 lines, and we lost them all except eighteen. The weather prevented us from taking any more in.

6807. Were these lines hired from Mr. Anderson?-Yes.

6808. Are the fishermen always liable for hired lines which they lose?-Yes. If they lose lines which they have hired, they have to pay for them.

6809. What is the value of these lines?-The price is about 2s. 8d. per line for new lines when they are ready for sea.

6810. Then a fleet of 108 lines would cost about £8 or £10?-I never give any consideration to what the cost of them might be. There were some of them old and some of them new; but I think 2s. 8d. was about the price for new lines about that time. The price varies at different times.

6811. Is not each man of the boat's crew liable for his share of the lines?-Yes. If there are five men in a boat, then the lines belong to these men, and they have each to pay their share of the hire for the season.

6812. In that way, you would be liable only for one-fifth of the value of the lines?-Yes; only for one-fifth that year.

6813. And that was the beginning of your debt?-Yes; but it was always going on, as I had a small family, and they were needing bread. Then interest was charged, and such as that.

6814. Was there any interest charged upon that account?-Yes.

6815. Are you sure of that?-Yes. It is marked down in the copies that I got.

6816. Did you ever know any man who got the whole of his accounts for nine years at once except yourself?-No.

6817. Did you ever know a man who asked for them?-No.

[Page 165]

6818. Did you ever know a man who was nine years in debt to a fish-merchant, with the debt always increasing, except yourself?- I could not positively say. I could not pick out any particular man; but very likely there are some who have been in the same position.

6819. During the time your debt was increasing, did you continue to fish every year for Mr. Anderson?-I was fishing for him the whole time.

6820. Did you, during that time, sell any of your fish to other merchants?-I did. The last year I was fishing for him I sold some fish to others, in order to keep my family alive.

6821. Who did you sell them to that year?-To Mr. Adie's factor.

6822. Was that what you call smuggling fish?-Yes. It was necessity that made me do it, in order to save my family.

6823. Was any objection made to your selling them?-No. I told that in court the same as I am telling it to you, and there was nothing said to me for doing it. I was obliged to do it.

6824. Was it not quite a fair thing for Mr. Anderson to do to summon you for the debt you were due him?-He did summon me for it; and when I asked him how it was to be paid, he wanted me either to pay it down at once or get cautioners for it, but I could not do either of these things. I perhaps I might have got a cautioner, but the money I did not have.

6825. Is it usual for a fisherman to get a cautioner when he is a little in debt?-I don't know; some of them have got one.

6826. But if the man continues to fish for the merchant to whom the debt is due, is he required to get a cautioner?-No. It is only when he goes away from the merchant that he is asked for a cautioner.

6827. Were you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Anderson, or for any one else, during these nine years?-I suppose I was, from the way I was in debt to him; but, instead of getting out of debt, the debt always increased.

6828. Whose fault was that?-I don't know. It was not my fault. As I have said, the last season I fished for Mr. Anderson I did not have a boat fit to go to sea with; but very likely, if I had had a good boat that season, as it was a good year's fishing, I might have got the debt somewhat reduced. Therefore it was not my fault. I got a boat from him, but ought to have got one that was fit to go to sea.

6829. Had you not your choice of boat?-I had no choice of a boat for that season.

6830. Where do you get the supplies for your family now?-From Laurence Smith, the man I fish to.

6831. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes; I have settled with him two years now.

6832. Had you something to get in cash last year?-Yes. The first year I fished for Laurence Smith I had 28s. to get, after paying for the things I had got from him during the season. This year, when I settled with him, I was clear. I had nothing to get, or very little.

6833. Were these two good fishing years?-They were very good; but the fishing is not the same with all the boats. They are not always equal in the same year.

6834. What was the price of meal at these two stores you have been dealing with?-It is just up and down, according to the market-less in one year than another. I think that last year it was about 21s. per boll in Mr. Smith's store.

6835. Are you told the price at the time you buy the meal?-Yes.

6836. Is the quality of the meal you get there as good as at Mr. Anderson's?-Yes, it is equally good. Meal and flour are just the same at the one place as at the other.

6837. Could you get better meal or flour anywhere else?-I don't know. We would, no doubt, get a different quality in Lerwick, if we were dealing there.

6838. Have you tried it there?-No.

6839. Are you obliged to take your provisions from the shop of the merchant you fish for?-I don't know about that. I have asked Mr. Smith at different times for a few shillings until the end of the twelvemonth.

6840. Have you got it?-Yes; I got it, but I never asked for any money to buy meal with, because he brought up stores there to supply his customers.

6842. But is it understood among the fishermen here that they ought to take their stores, or part of them, both provisions and clothing, from the merchant to whom they sell their fish?-That is generally the way in which they take there.

6842. Are they generally obliged to do that?-No; I don't think they are obliged to do it.

6843. Can they get cash from the merchants with which to buy their goods in other places?-I don't know. If the merchant has meal and other things which they are requiring, and can sell them as cheap and as good as they can get them at any other place then, of course, they don't need to ask money from him.

6844. But they generally do get their provisions from the merchant's shop, and nowhere else?-Yes.

6845. Did you ever ask for cash with which to go and buy your provisions from another store?-No; but I got an allowance from Mr. Smith with which to go to Mr. Anderson's factor if he (Mr. Smith) did not have the things I wanted.

6846. When was that?-I got it in both years when was fishing for Mr. Smith.

6847. Was that a general allowance or was it given to you on some particular occasion, when you wanted something?-If there was anything I required for the fishing, which Mr. Smith did not have, then I got leave from him to sell fish to another merchant, so that I might buy it, or I got cash from him with which to buy it from another.

6848. That, I suppose, was when you wanted any kind of clothing which he did not keep?-Yes; or a bit of meat, or butter or meal, if he did not have it. Then he gave us money to buy it with from Mr. Anderson's, or allowed us to go and sell fish to Mr. Anderson and to purchase it.

6849. Did you often do that?-Not often.

6850. Your daughter was examined to-day?-Yes.

6851. She works at the kelp?-Yes, a little. She is young yet, and has not done much to it.

6852. She also knits a little?-Yes. The most she has knitted has been for people belonging to the family, stockings and other things that we were requiring for ourselves.

6853. She also sells your eggs?-Yes.

6854. When she sells these things, are they paid for in money or in goods?-We are generally requiring some stores for the house: soap or soda, or a little tea or sugar; and they are got in that way.

6855. Does she always sell her hosiery for goods?-Yes; I suppose she never asked anything else for it.

6856. Do you sell the eggs yourself, or are they usually sold by your daughter?-They are generally sold by her.

6857. Has she a book of her own in which they are entered?-She has no book. They are generally paid for at once.

6858. How are you paid for your winter fishing?-We were generally paid for every haul as we brought it ashore, but we cannot do that now. We have to salt our fish ourselves in the winter fishing; and when we have got as many as two or three cwt. we send them over to Mr. Laurenson, and sell them to him.

6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of fish as they came ashore.

6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I fished to him.

6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got cash.

6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166] several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had delivered so many fish.

6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No.

6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back with the line, we got anything we required for it.

6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes. The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON, examined.

6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am.

6867. Do you live there?-Yes.

6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for the last two years.

6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr. Smith.

6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle.

6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes.

6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not.

6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man sometimes did not have it to get.

6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other years I was a good bit behind.

6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that was what made me shift from man to man.

6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted twice because I was in debt.

6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I cannot tell how long it is ago.

6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr. Williamson.

6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes.

6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left.

6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it with.

6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time.

6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect.

6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?- Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him, although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and no copy of my account.

6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had to go back again, and afterwards I left him again.

6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as £10?-I don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember.

6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able.

6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies, either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him.

6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little.

6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?- No; it was only because he could not give me supplies.

6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been fishing for him.

6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know yet what I am to get.

6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear with him.

6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not much-a mere trifle.

6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with, either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got.

6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with him.

6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never got.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON, examined.

6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I am.

6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for two years.

6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing.

6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In 1868.

6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes.

6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes.

6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished for him.

6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted it?-No.

6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes.

6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes.

6908. Why?-I don't know.

6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes.

6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year; but in the second year I had 10s. to get.

6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year too?-Yes.

6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in cash.

6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back and go again.

6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that.

6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during the winter?-I suppose that is the reason.

6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and such things as that.

6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I never asked for it again.

6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not give a pass-book to any one more than to me.

6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?- Yes.

6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason.

6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?- Yes.

6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with bread.

6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small stores?-Yes.

6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took it home.

6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself, and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it home.

6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes, and anything I required.

6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when you came home?-I got them twice.

6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make two voyages; last year we made three.

6929. And you would be getting something additional each time you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every voyage.

6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last year I got an account for £17, and this year it was £22.

6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes.

6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the year on the whole of your account?-I had £16 odds to get last year, and this year I had £10.

6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop.

6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes.

6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving.

6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for him?-Yes, that was about the time.

6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always at school before I went to the fishing.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON, examined.

6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am.

6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to the Busta estate.

6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.

6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach.

6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the middle of November.

6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's ledger?-Yes.

6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes.

6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally.

6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur Harrison, just as may suit my convenience.

6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr. Anderson's.

6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and Harrison's?-Yes, much the same.

6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me to take a few supplies from him.

6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and spring.

6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?- Yes.

6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled to do so.

6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of settlement.

6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much about the same time as for the other-some time in November or December.

6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it.

6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused money at any time.

6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes.

6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums.

6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it is.

6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my experience.

6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man should take his goods from him.

6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid to you at the end of the year?-I don't know.

6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally keep accounts of our own; at least I do so.

6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book].

6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from 1865 or 1866 to the present time.

6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr. Anderson's book?-Yes.

6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it.

6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think I was.

6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was £14, 8s. 7d.

6970. You live with your father?-Yes.

6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it.

6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168] quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the country.

6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes.

6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at Mr. Anderson's.

6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes.

6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding something for carriage.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON, examined.

6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for some time.

6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I am living with my father.

6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for three years.

6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes.

6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get from his shop?-Yes.

6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it.

6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year about two months ago.

6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but it was not much.

6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year before?-I was.

6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was clear. I had something to get the year before.

6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money.

6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it.

6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next account?-Yes.

6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes.

6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in money?-No; they don't get them in money.

6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps they may get a little money.

6993. Given after settlement?-Yes.

6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it].

6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book before?-No.

6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash.

6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I could not get it.

6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did not have money, and I could not get it.

6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry.

7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George Henry.

7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year; and I was there three months.

7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years since I first went to it.

7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required from him at the time.

7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No, not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to get, and I got it.

7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years.

7006. During that time you always had an account with your employer?-Yes.

7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson.

7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr. Anderson.

7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him.

7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my supplies the first year from him.

7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the haaf?-No.

7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year.

7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson, I might have had my liberty.

7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not clear?-Yes.

7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I just got them from the man that I was to engage with.

7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes.

7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then.

7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months afterwards?-Yes.

7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?- Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year. They make up their crews then.

7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews then?-Yes.

7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in the rising year.

7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the following year?-Yes, when they are in debt.

7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I believe there is something in that.

7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that year when I left the beach.

7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him. I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies.

7027. In what year was that?-I think it is about six years ago

7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about £5 odds.

7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them somewhere, I went to another merchant for them.

7030. Have you paid up that £5?-I have not.

7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once.

7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not.

7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a little of it after I got the summons.

7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s.

7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now.

7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay.

7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money.

7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson.

7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know.

7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so.

7041. When was that?-Three years ago.

7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him.

7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I cannot say exactly what the reason was.

7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for the merchant I am now with.

7045. You were a little above £5 in debt then?-Yes; between £5 and £6.

7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, examined.

7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am.

7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes.

7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did.

7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for the last three years. I am too old.

7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson.

7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the year?-Occasionally.

7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was something due and it was put against me.

7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No.

7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had my freedom; there was no compulsion.

7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes.

7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have done so; but I saw no occasion for it.

7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least.

7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain. It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the time came for settlement.

7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have anything to do with that.

7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew.

7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were done in any other way.

7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say.

7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do anything in the way of changing it.

7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't interfere with.

7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with them in any way.

7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every way they can.

7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way.

7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required.

7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own books and are satisfied with them.

7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle it herself?-Yes.

7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes.

7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice, and it has been so all my days.

7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the price.

7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods, I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop with it.

7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction.

7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?- Yes.

7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until your debt was paid?-Yes.

[Page 170]

7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes.

7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing.

7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from Mr. Anderson?-No.

7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a little cash?-No.

7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off now than they were in my young days, because at that time married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price, and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to be successful, it pays them very well.

7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes.

7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe, and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer.

7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four years.

7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?- Yes.

7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven voyages to Davis Straits.

7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick.

7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve voyages for him.

7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was about 1850 or 1851.

7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much per month and an allowance of oil-money besides.

7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes.

7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got your advance, and could take it where you pleased.

7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick who engaged you?-Yes.

7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get £2 or £3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the book which they had to settle at that time.

7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them were sea-going clothes.

7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your families?-No; not very often.

7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all about the same.

.

Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie.

DAVID GREIG, examined.

7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for them at North Roe for ten years.

7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes.

7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with those on the west side.

7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?- At Feideland.

7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes.

7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in this parish.

7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes.

7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was £193, 7s. 6d., of which £17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental charged to tenants is £176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes.

7108. The £17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co. themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate on which they graze.

7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about £130 or £140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep up the property.

7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will have anything.

7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually understood so.

7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co. chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that they entered into it.

7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding. The highest is £6, and the lowest is £2, 7s. I may say that the rents on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally.

7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In comparison with other places, a very considerable increase.

7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three.

7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants fishing to other curers.

7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities.

[Page 171]

7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission.

7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no consequences have followed.

7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have been none at all.

7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in this parish.

7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were four deep-sea boats from Yell.

7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes.

7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large. Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co.

7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No; it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as £3; but in our case it has never been above 48s.

7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes.

7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat: she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else.

7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are allowed to pay for them in three years.

7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the fishing.

7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co. from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again.

7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had no profit by doing it.

7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage.

7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70 from Northmaven, in 16 boats.

7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it was approximately about £1220.

7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That is their earnings from the fishing alone.

7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary course of business.

7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them.

7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them, because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going over the accounts.

7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the men?-Yes. It will be a little over £12.

7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?- Yes.

7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the fishermen.

7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes; there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their earnings.

7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8 in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98.

7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from £2 to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their chance of the fishing of these two lines.

7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes.

7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads' fishing was more than their fee.

7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't think so.

7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part of the country.

7149. Then, from £1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose you would deduct £18 or £20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about £20 or £25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the average for the men much higher than I have put it there.

7150. It would leave about £13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of the men?-Yes.

7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-£553 and £170 additional approximately for rent.

7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes; that is taken off their fishings.

7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about £8?-Yes; and if you deduct about £2 for each man for boat hire and provisions through the year, then the difference between the £8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to their families during the season.

7154. Adding about £2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the supplies at the fishing station, that makes the £10, and the balance of £3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the year?-Yes.

7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are all quite near.

7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in addition to those that enter the account?-I think so.

7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop through the year, being returned to it for purchases.

7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?- Yes.

7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a single year?-It varies very much.

7160. Would it be £100 or £200?-No; I don't think it is so much as that.

7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?- They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr. John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and Hillswick.

[Page 172]

7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come back to me in turn.

7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there are six overdrawn accounts.

7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual.

7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had any difficulty in that way.

7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always found it to be the best principle.

7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left the employment in consequence of being in debt.

7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that.

7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so.

7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an unfavourable year.

7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I think four or five years ago.

7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of years?-In two or three cases it has done so.

7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases just now.

7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was cleared off?-Yes.

7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season.

7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes.

7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor.

7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if they were the proprietors.

7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else they would have to pay it.

7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the royalty to the proprietor.

7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp too.

7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just 4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash.

7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty.

7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should have the kelp shores.

7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid by them?-Yes.

7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods, and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value for it without having any profit on it.

7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in cash for it, then there would be no profit.

7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you have a profit on the goods?-Yes.

7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?- There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration.

7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it for last year, when there were twelve tons.

7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales, but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was £5, 10s. per ton.

7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on board ship?-No.

7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and re-shipped again.

7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at Simbister?-Yes.

7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s. per cwt.?-I don't think it would.

7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at 4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d., and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and shipping and transhipping again.

7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the property.

7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen at settlement was about £553, and that the average amount due by each man for goods to his family would be £3, 8s. 6d.: would there be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes.

7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes.

7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to £12, 9s. 6d.

7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes.

7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man had very high earnings.

7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish bought to the value of about £7000; and during the same time the cash paid at settlement has been about £4420. That includes the rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at settlement: Cash Paid at Value of Fishings. Settlement. 1868 About £400 £290 1869 704 335 1870 1003 540 1871 1220 723

[Page 173]

7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats.

7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August. After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year.

7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging to the men themselves?-Yes.

7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing.

7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I think since I came there they have generally been purchased from them, but not altogether.

7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is, that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years they stand in separate account in my books.

7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account. That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close of three years.

7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer.

7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they are delivered.

7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave these transactions unsettled.

7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they are not required to do it in any way.

7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been many exceptions that I have known.

7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so.

7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back again.'

7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book.

7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash.

7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the time?-Yes.

7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about £56.

7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes; but I think in some years since I came there it has been over £100.

7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?- Yes.

7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?- No; not generally.

7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go south, employ their time in winter in that way.

7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small.

7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not.

7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea, where they graze for their own purposes.

7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for that island yearly.

7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the cattle?-For no other purpose.

7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are.

7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes, mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases where they received the cash again immediately.

7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or they get cash for them at any time they want.

7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we might buy her or not.

7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never practised it at North Roe.

7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood.

7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and removed it.

7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?- Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time, and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was not the debtor at all.

7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it, to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner.

7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is possible it may have been in that way.

7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast.

7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No.

7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not.

7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I don't think it.

7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes.

7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all.

7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the proceeds go to the party who put on the mark.

7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and October.

7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes.

7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him to do so.

7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy them.

7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all occasions.

7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No. I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody, they could have an action against him for refusing it.

7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I do not think it does exist.

7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere.

7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I have transacted such business for some of them.

7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year I sent £11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick, and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.'

7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to make him the advance?-Yes.

7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant, rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such a case in our own neighbourhood.

7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own experience?-No.

7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know that it is the practice.

7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?- I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own knowledge.

7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands: do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom.

7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?- No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to them for any tickets want.

7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your fishermen at North Roe?-Yes.

7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind. There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money, and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself direct.

7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments, we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments, would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer.

7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay them to do so.

7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am.

7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind.

7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to support them they are bound to do so.

7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish, and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling.

7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s. 6d. to 15s. a month.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON, examined.

7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am.

7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes; but principally in drapery.

7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage in that trade to a small extent.

7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had three boats last year, two large and one small.

7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No.

7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are willing to make a contract with you?-Yes.

[Page 175]

7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None.

7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has been described by the previous witness and settle with them yearly?-Yes.

7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years they have generally been in their favour. In former years they were not generally so; they were often against them.

7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively; but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat, I have not had many changes.

7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your employment during that time?-Yes.

7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes. Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer; but generally they have been the same.

7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all cases.

7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few cases.

7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes.

7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that accommodation?-Most of them are.

7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case with most of them.

7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes.

7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of them, have their own wool.

7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a very small extent.

7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?- Invariably in goods.

7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?- No; very seldom.

7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes.

7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books? -Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts short.

7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in goods over the counter.

7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value; but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall pay it.

7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it. 7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book now, so that I may be kept safe.

7302. Have you a list of the lines which you issue?-For some time past, I have entered them in a book when they were given out.

7303. But you have no separate register for such lines?-No.

7304. Is there any reason why cash is not asked in these transactions for hosiery?-It is understood that we are not prepared generally to give any cash; but in the case of a regular knitter who wanted some part of her payment in cash, I have never refused, so far as I recollect, to give her what she asked. However, it was usually a comparatively small sum that was asked in that way.

7305. Do you sometimes buy articles all for cash, making special bargains for them?-Occasionally, if it is anything special.

7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that the women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it, and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash, and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in exchange.

7307. Do you sell your goods south?-Yes.

7308. Are you prepared to show that just now?-Yes. [Produces book.] This [showing] is the sales book, containing copies of the invoices.

7309. The women in their accounts are charged with the wool as got by them?-Yes.

7310. Are they credited again with the knitted goods as got by you?-Yes.

7311. Therefore, in that way the wool is really given out by you to them, to be knitted as by persons in your employment?-No, they are not employed by me, but I expect the women to bring back the goods to me, as we don't sell wool, because it is rather difficult to get. With regard to the prices, I show here an entry in a copy invoice, under date Sept. 14, 1871 of half a dozen girls' polkas at 15s., 7s. 6d., and I also show an entry in my women's ledger of 'by one doz. girls' polkas, 14s. 4d.,' on January 27, 1870.

7312. Was there any material difference in the price of polkas within that period of 18 months?-No. I also show an entry under date February 18, 1870, of 1/3 doz. girls' polkas at 15s., 5s. In addition to the price entered in the women's ledger, there is the price of re-dressing, which is about 6d. a dozen, and there are boxes required in which to send them away, for which we do not get any return.

7313. Do you swear that these girls' polkas are a fair sample of the other articles in which you deal, with regard to the expense of production to you and the invoice price to your customer in the south?-Yes. I may state that we have a very strong desire to give encouragement to good knitters, by giving them the highest prices.

7314. Can you mention any case in which you have [Page 176] sold hosiery at a profit?-No, except in small orders, or retail orders from private parties. In such cases, I consider it fair to charge a small profit on the goods, in order to protect my other customers who buy largely from me. That is the only case in which there is any profit.

7315. Do you purchase worsted to any great extent?-Not worsted, but wool,-the raw material from the farmers in the district.

7316. Is that spun and made up by persons employed by you?- Yes. I do that for the purpose of finding employment for women who have no way of their own to earn a livelihood.

7317. Do you use that wool for your own trade, or do you sell it as worsted to merchants elsewhere?-We cannot get enough of it. It is entirely for our own trade that it is made up, with very rare exceptions.

7318. Do you make up all qualities of it, or is it simply the coarser kind of wool required for the underclothing department?-The softest wool is made up for underclothing, and the coarser is made into tweeds.

7319. But you do not make any of the finer kinds of worsted for fancy work?-Nothing, except to a very trifling extent. Our knitters don't knit that kind of work.

7320. What is the rate of payment for spinning?-The girls to whom I sell it, card, spin, and knit it usually.

7321. Then the entry you showed me was an entry of wools?- Yes. They would be to sell the worsted once they had spun it, but they can turn it to more account by knitting.

7322. There is nobody in your employment merely for spinning?- I cannot say there is. Occasionally we get a woman to spin for us; but they don't like to do that, as it is not profitable.

7323. The way in which you deal with these spinners and knitters is, that you generally sell the wool to them?-Yes.

7324. And they bring it, and sell it back to you when made into articles of hosiery?-Yes.

7325. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes; some of them have offered to take the wool, and make it 'halvers.' The practice among the people themselves is, that a party who has wool gives it to a neighbour who has none; she knits two pieces of goods, one of which belongs to the owner of the wool, and the other is kept by the knitter for her trouble. I objected to that system, because I did not think it encouraged them to make the most of their material, and they did not, perhaps, give fair attention to the improvement the knitting. If they buy 4s. worth of wool, and if girl knits well, she may turn 10s. or 12s. out of that; in some cases more; so that there is more encouragement to them by knitting the wool themselves, than by selling it.

7326. I suppose you sometimes buy articles which have been made by knitters with their own wool, spun by themselves, and which has not originally been purchased from you?-Yes; a great many of the articles of hosiery are purchased by us in that way.

7327. On whose property is your shop?-On the Busta estate.

7328. How long have you held your shop there?-Since 1864,- seven years.

7329. Was there a shop in existence at Lochend before you opened yours?-There had been a shop there for a long time.

7330. In the same premises?-Yes; but it has been considerably enlarged.

7331. Where were you before?-At Ollaberry. I had the business place there now occupied by Mr. Anderson's firm.

7332. You left that when they took it into their own hands?-Yes.

7333. Had you any difficulty in getting a shop in which to carry on your business in this district cannot say that I had. I was offered this place by the Busta trustees. It was in a state of dilapidation when I took it, and they offered it to me on condition that I would make the necessary repairs on it for myself.

7334. Was any difficulty stated about giving you the shop on account of interfering with the business of the other merchants in the district?-No.

7335. Do you sometimes buy fish from the fishermen who are employed by Messrs. Anderson & Co. or by Messrs. Hay & Co.; I mean odd hauls now and then?-I cannot say that I buy any from Messrs. Hay Co.'s fishermen, because they would hardly sell to me on account of the inconvenience.

7336. But are you aware whether the practice exists of the fishermen employed by you selling occasionally to the factors of other merchants, and the fishermen of other merchants selling occasionally to you or your factors?-I think that practice exists only to it very small extent.

7337. But you have detected that practice to certain extent?-I cannot say that I have; there have been very few fish bought from such men.

7338. Was that done because the men did not get cash advances from the parties for when they fished regularly?-I don't think it was. I think it was merely done from a notion on the part of the men.

7339. Did they get merely the same price which they would have got from their own employer?-I think they got the same price in all cases.

7340. Then why should they not deliver their fish as usual in the ordinary way?-I cannot say. They perhaps think it is a privilege to sell to any one who will buy from them-although that is not the rule. It is understood that they are not at liberty, as a rule, to do so, but yet they do it, although it has been very rarely in my experience.

7341. When they sell their fish in that way, are these transactions for ready money?-Not always. They may sell them in order to pay some goods which they have got before. If they were selling them to me, they might bring them in order to pay some account which they had at my shop.

7342. Are there many fishermen dealing at your shop on credit who fish to other merchants?-Occasionally there are a few.

7343. You have accounts with them?-Yes; with a few.

7344. Are these accounts settled annually, at the ordinary settling time, as a rule; or is there any rule, about the period for settlement?-There is a rule that they shall settle annually after the settlement with their own curers, and at that time they usually bring part of the cash which has been paid to them.

7345. Do you sometimes find that these accounts are not settled at that time?-Sometimes I do.

7346. Are you a loser to any extent by the failure of the fishermen to settle accounts of that kind?-I consider that I am, in some cases.

7347. But these debts sometimes run over a period of years?-In cases where the parties are poor they do.

7348. Have there been offers made to you by fishermen who are in these circumstances, and who are in your debt, to settle their accounts by engaging to fish for you during the fishing season?- No; I cannot say that there have been any offers made to me of that sort.

7349. You have not taken on a fisherman who was in your debt in that way?-No.

7350. Do you not know of any case in which you have taken on a man who was in your debt, simply with the view of allowing him to pay it off?-With the fishermen on the Busta estate I have done so.

7351. Were these men who had incurred a debt to you while they were fishing for another merchant?-In one instance that was the case; but I find, as a rule, that a party who is in debt is not one who is likely to be ready to offer his services. The fact that he is in debt is no inducement to make him fish for you, but rather the contrary.

7352. Do you think that, as a rule, he will continue to fish for his former employer?-Yes.

7353. But the fact probably is, that if he is in debt to you in that way, he is also in debt to [Page 177] his own employer?-I believe that is generally the case.

7354. Have you known any case of a fisherman changing his employer because he was so deeply in debt to him, that that employer would not advance him any more goods?-I have in my own transactions had to refuse advances to a fisherman, because I knew he was getting into debt deeper than he could pay. I refused to advance him any longer, and left him at liberty to do the best he could for himself.

7355. Did he leave you at the end of the season?-Yes.

7356. And at the beginning of it new season, did he go to another employer?-Yes.

7357. In that case how have you secured your debt?-I gave him perhaps a year, and then I had to press him for the amount.

7358. Did you take him to court?-Yes; I took him to court, because he refused to pay what I believed he was able to pay.

7359. Have you ever in such a case succeeded in getting any part of your debt settled by his new employer?-Yes.

7360. How was that done? Did you, at the beginning of the fishing season, get the new employer to make an advance to the fisherman to account of your debt?-In the case I am referring to, the employer at the end of the fishing season made a payment to me, as an instalment on the debt.

7361. Was that done by arrangement with the fisherman?-Yes; the fisherman went to his new employer and got his line or security for a part, indeed for the whole amount, to be paid in three instalments, in three years, because I thought it better to part with the man when he was getting too deeply into debt, and perhaps the change in going to another employer would lead him to better himself.

7362. Was he likely to better himself in such circumstances?-It chanced that he got into a good fishing boat, and he did better himself.

7363. But that was just a chance, was it not?-Yes, I should think so.

7364. Was it the man who wished to go to another employer when his supplies were stopped by you, or was it you who wished him to change?-He could not do without advances, and he would not give me security to cover my risk in giving him any.

7365. But the new employer, in employing the fisherman, took exactly the same risk which you refused, and I suppose gave him supplies?-Not to the same extent. It was only after the man had been at sea at one season at the fishing for his new employer, and had earned a fair earning, that he paid me one-third of his account, and became good for the balance to be paid at the end of the next two seasons.

7366. Did that merchant become good for the whole balance of your account?-I don't know whether it was legally or formally gone into, but it was understood he would see that the man paid me.

7367. Was that a single case, or has it occurred oftener with you?-That has been the only case in my experience.

7368. Who was the merchant?-Mr. Greig, the manager for Messrs. Hay & Co.

7369. Are you aware whether that case is of ordinary occurrence in transactions between fish-curers, when fisherman leaves the employment of one and goes to that of another?-I think it has been an understood thing among them; at least some time ago, when I was more in connection with the larger concerns of Hillswick and Ollaberry, it was understood that when a fisherman ran away from his responsibility, after getting into debt, his new employer, if he was taken up by another curer in the district, would be morally liable to pay the balance for the man, if it was reasonable. I don't know whether that is the practice now or not.

7870. Was there just a general understanding that the new employer should make some kind of arrangement about it, the particulars being settled in each case, or was there a rule that he should become responsible for the whole debt, or for a specific proportion of the debt?-I think it was understood that it would be fair for the new employer to become accountable for the whole debt, if it was reasonable, or for such a proportion of it as he would undertake to pay for the man.

7871. Were you in the employment of Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-I was a partner in the business at Ollaberry. I was in the employment of Mr. Gideon Anderson for years before, and then I was manager at Ollaberry, until I went to Lochend.

7372. Before you left Ollaberry you had not been in business for yourself, but you were merely manager for Anderson or Anderson & Co.?-The firm was Anderson Brothers & Laurenson, and I was a member of that firm.

7373. Before you left the firm, did that understanding which you have described exist among the fishing curers in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

7374. In your experience, was it generally acted upon?-I think it was. I may mention that I did not have to do with the fishermen in the summer season, while I managed the business at Ollaberry for seven years. I had only to do with the winter fishing. In the summer they fished for Hillswick, and I had nothing further than ordinary transactions with the fishermen then. It was chiefly the hosiery trade and the winter fishing that I knew about.

7375. But you were, to some extent, acquainted with the transactions which took place in the summer fishing?-Yes.

7376. And in describing this understanding, you are speaking from your general knowledge of the system pursued?-Yes.

7377. With what merchants, in this part of Shetland, did that understanding exist, and was acted upon? Did it extend to Messrs. Hay at North Roe; you have mentioned an instance in which it was acted upon with them?-That was in my own experience since.

7378. But did the understanding extend to them at that time?- Messrs. Hay & Co. had not a station there then: it was another firm.

7379. To whom did that understanding extend?-To Messrs. Adie, Mr. Inkster at Brae and to the firm of Anderson at Hillswick.

7380. Did it extend to the Mossbank people?-I cannot say. The fishermen were not very likely to remove from here to Mossbank, or from Mossbank to here.

7381. Did it extend to fishing stations in Yell?-I don't think so.

7382. Or further south to Reawick?-Not to my knowledge.

7383. The fishermen, you think, do not move about so far as that?-No. Perhaps I may be allowed to say with regard to the special case of a fisherman that I mentioned, that there was no previous arrangement between Mr. Greig and me about a general collection of debts from the men. I was merely pressing the debtor for payment, and Mr. Greig came forward as a friend.

7384. Do you mean that the understanding or practice which you have referred to does not exist so far as the Messrs. Hay are concerned?-There is no such understanding betwixt me and Messrs. Hay.

7385. And you have said that you did not refer to them when you spoke of the practice existing at a former time, when you were in a different firm?-No; I do not include them. With regard to another previous statement I wish also to say, that so far from wishing my customers to get into debt, I have had a notice signed to the effect that I would not give credit to knitters beyond four months, and then I reduced it to two months. That shows that it is against our interest, instead of being for our interest, to let them get into debt.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ANDREW RATTER, examined.

7386. You are a fisherman at North Roe?-I am.

7387. Are you a tenant of Messrs. Hay there?-Yes.

[Page 178]

7388. What balance was paid to you last year at settlement?-£5, 15s.

7389. Is that about the ordinary sum you have to get in a fair season?-Yes.

7390. How much was your account for furnishings for your family?-Between £3 and £4.

7391. Is that about an ordinary thing too?-I think some of the men take more than that.

7392. Do you generally deal at Messrs. Hay's shop at North Roe for all the things you want in the way of provisions and clothing?-Yes.

7393. Do you deal anywhere else?-Very little.

7394. Where else: at Lochend?-No; I don't deal at Lochend.

7395. Do you deal any at Lerwick?-No; I don't deal anywhere to any great extent except at North Roe.

7396. Is it usual for the men there to deal chiefly with Messrs. Hay?-Yes; so far as I know.

7397. Is there no other shop convenient for them?-Not very convenient.

7398. Are the articles you get very satisfactory in quality?-Yes; I have always found them so.

7399. What do you pay for your tea?-From 8d. to 10d. a quarter.

7400. What do you pay for your meal just now?-It varies in price, according to the seasons. I could not exactly say what the meal is just now, because I am not buying any at present. The last I bought was in the summer, when I went to the fishing, and I think paid 5s. 4d. per lispund of 32 lbs. for it.

7401. Is it by lispund weight you generally buy it?-It is sometimes by lispund weight, and sometimes by boll weight.

7402. What is the price of a boll?-22s.

7403. Have you ever fished for other fish-curers than Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes; I fished for the late James Peterson at North Roe. That was before Messrs. Hay got the shop there.

7404. Since Messrs. Hay have had a place there, have you ever fished for any other merchants?-No.

7405. Have you ever sold your fish to other curers?-No.

7406. Not your small fish?-No.

7407. Have you never sold a single fish to anybody except Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I recollect selling perhaps a cwt. or two through the winter to Mr. Inkster at North Roe.

7408. Were you paid in cash for them?-Yes.

7409. Did Mr. Greig find any fault with you for doing so?-No.

7410. Did he know of it?-Yes; I made no secret of it. I did it openly.

7411. Is it understood that you are at liberty to sell your fish in winter to anybody you like?-No.

7412. But you sometimes take the liberty of doing it?-Yes.

7413. Why did you prefer to sell your fish at that time to Mr. Inkster rather than to Mr. Greig?-I had perhaps a small account with Inkster at the time and he preferred the fish rather than cash.

7414. Does he cure fish himself?-Yes; a little.

7415. Do you go to the Faroe fishing?-No.

7416. Do you pay your rent to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes.

7417. Is it settled along with your account with them?-Yes.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.

7418. You live with your mother near Hillswick?-I do.

7419. Is she a widow?-Yes.

7420. Has your mother a piece of land?-Yes.

7421. How do you work it: do you manage it for her?-No.

7422. Do you get a man to work it for you?-No, we work it ourselves.

7423. Do you live with your mother alone, or is there anybody else in the house?-There is a servant.

7424. Is your land on the Busta estate?-Yes.

7425. Do you do a good deal in knitting?-Not a great deal, but I do some.

7426. Where do you sell it?-At different shops; generally at Hillswick, and sometimes I sell it in Lerwick, and sometimes at Ollaberry.

7427. What makes you go to Lerwick and Ollaberry with your work?-I cannot say.

7428. Do you just go there when you want to go?-Yes.

7429. Do you get a better price there for your knitting than you do at Hillswick?-No; it is just about the same.

7430. How are you paid for it?-Generally in goods.

7431. Do you sometimes get a little money?-It is not much money that I get, but I get stamps when I ask them.

7432. What do you knit?-Principally ladies' slips or spencers.

7433. What is the price of them?-From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d.: perhaps we may get as much as 2s. when they are good.

7434. That is the price of them in goods?-Yes.

7435. Did you ever sell any of them for all money?-No.

7436. Why?-I never asked it.

7437. Would you rather have had money?-Yes; sometimes.

7438. Then why did you not ask it?-Because I was generally needing the goods.

7439. But you said you would sometimes rather have had the money: why did you not ask it then? Was it because the practice is not to give money for hosiery?-I suppose it was.

7440. Did you not ask it because you would not get it?-I knew that if I had asked it I might have got a little.

7441. Would you prefer to get some money for your hosiery whenever you take it to sell?-Yes.

7442. Do you think you would get less money for it than you get in goods?-I don't know.

7443. Who do you sell it to in Lerwick?-Mr. Sinclair.

7444. Do you keep an account with him?-No.

7445. Do you keep an account at any of the shops?-Yes; I sometimes keep an account at Hillswick with Mr. Anderson.

7446. How often do you settle it?-Sometimes at the end of the year, and sometimes oftener.

7447. Is there anything entered in that account as having been sold by you except hosiery?-No.

7448. Are there no eggs?-No; we sell eggs, but they are never put into our account; they are just paid for at the time.

7449. Do you get money for them?-Yes; if it is asked.

7450. Do you often ask for money?-Not very often.

7451. Why do you not ask for it?-Because we are commonly taking tea.

7452. Do you want the tea?-Yes.

7453. How many eggs would you sell in a month in summer? Three or four dozen?-We might.

7454. What do you get for the dozen?-6d.

7455. Do you always take the price of it in tea?-Not always, but generally.

7456. Do you ever sell them anywhere else except Hillswick?- No.

7457. Are the goods which you get in payment for your hosiery put on the other side of your account, in order to settle it?-Yes; when the hosiery is not paid up.

7458. Do you sometimes get your hosiery paid up at the time?- Yes, generally.

7459. But you said you had an account: is that account for goods supplied to your family?-No; it is sometimes for cotton.

7460. Is that for your own dress?-Yes.

[Page 179]

7461. Is your hosiery always paid for in dresses and clothing for yourself?-Generally.

7462. Do you pay your account altogether in hosiery?-Yes.

7463. You never pay money for what you want?-No.

7464. Do you deal for cotton and dresses anywhere else than at Hillswick?-No.

7465. Do you got these things as good and as cheap there as you could get them elsewhere?-I suppose I do.

7466. Have you never tried them elsewhere?-Yes; I have got them in Lerwick from Mr Sinclair.

7467. Were the goods you got there of the same quality, or were they better or worse than at Mr. Anderson's?-They were just about the same, I suppose.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, Rev. JAMES R. SUTHERLAND, examined.

7468. You are the minister of the parish of Northmaven?-I am.

7469. How long have you been so?-Since November 1848.

7470. You are, I presume, intimately acquainted with the condition of the people in your parish?-Perfectly so-as much as any minister can be.

7471. And you know the system which prevails, and which has been described in the evidence yesterday and to-day, with regard to the payment for fish in account with the fish-curer, and also with regard to hosiery?-Yes; I am acquainted with that generally.

7472. You have not been cited to attend here to-day?-No.

7473. But I understand you are willing and desirous to make some statement with regard to the effects of that system upon the habits of the people?-I am perfectly willing.

7474. Do you think the system of long payments which exists here is a wholesome one as regards the habits of the fishermen?-I think it is most ruinous. I think I have had very good opportunities of judging of the effect of the system upon the people, being intimately acquainted with them, and having received the statements in private of a great many of them; and I cannot conceive any system which could be more ruinous in a moral point of view, apart altogether from its effect upon them in a pecuniary way. In my opinion, the independence of the people is wholly destroyed. There is scarcely a man I know, with very few exceptions, who is not in terror, and terror that I could scarcely describe, of the merchant to whom he is indebted, and I believe that three-fourths of the whole of my parishioners are in debt to some merchant or other, and thoroughly under their control.

7475. What is your ground for saying that so many your own parishioners are in debt?-I know it from their own lips.

7476. Do you speak of the present time?-Yes, of the present time. There are a few exceptions to that, some of which I could point out, but not many.

7477. Do you consider that the state of indebtedness is greater at the present time, or less, than it has been generally throughout your experience in the parish?-I don't see any improvement in that respect, taking the whole population. There might be one here and one there who have got free of debt this year, because it has been an exceptionally good year in cattle; but, taking them as the same state of serfdom as they were twenty-three years ago, when I came here.

7478. Your ground for that statement, I understand, is the information you have received from the people themselves?-Yes.

7479. Do you think the people generally who make these statements to you are to be relied upon?-Generally, I think so, because I am exceedingly well acquainted with many of their circumstances, and I know those who are comparatively independent. I speak only of that independence which we might expect from such it population. There are many of them who are in a position which we would call pretty comfortable. I know that from having the management of their affairs privately; but I don't believe that, for the last fifteen or twenty years, the people who are in such circumstances have increased in number, or have increased the amount of the savings which are at their credit in places that I know.

7480. That statement you have now made refers to the better-off class among them?-Yes; to the better-off class, but they are very few compared with the rest.

7481. You think those who are not so well off may be two-thirds or three-fourths of your parishioners?-I may say that there are three-fourths of them who are not in these comfortable circumstances.

7482. With regard to the larger portion of your parishioners who are indebted, your information is derived from their own statements, and you say that you think generally these statements are reliable?-Perfectly so; at least as much so as such statements can be expected to be; but I have my information from other sources than the people themselves. I have it from those who are above them in station, and who know their circumstances as well as I know them myself.

7483. I suppose a man comes to you as a clergyman, and as one who is likely to sympathize with him when he is in difficulty about his affairs?-Yes.

7484. Has that often happened in your experience?-Yes; and in such cases this is what I do-Generally there are two or three elders in the parish, who are very respectable and very independent, and I privately consult these men as to whether the statements which have been made to me by the people are true. I have found that I have been oftener deceived in thinking that a man had something saved, when he had nothing, than the other way.

7485. It was stated, I think, in the evidence previously given, that many Shetland people are pretty well off, and have accounts in the bank, although they don't look as if they were worth anything, and pretend that they have nothing, being afraid to let it be known that they have money; and a story has been told of a man begging hard to borrow money with which to buy a cow, and going to his minister for the money: are you acquainted with that story?-I am acquainted with the story. I believe it has been attributed to me; it did not happen with me, but the minister with whom it happened told me about it in his own house. I was there when the thing took place.

7486. Does that story not lead to a suspicion that the complaints which are often made to you, and which you say are the grounds upon which you have arrived at the conclusion you have stated as to the circumstances of a large proportion of your parishioners, may be somewhat exaggerated by the parties?-No. That case occurred in a parish containing between 900 and 1000 people, and it was only a single case out of that population. It was the only case which the parish minister, who is still alive, was able to tell me had ever happened to him. One case out of nearly 1000 people is not many, but I do know cases something like that. I know people who have some pounds laid by in certain places, and they come to me by stealth to get me to transact business on their account with regard to these small sums. And why do they do that by stealth? It is for fear of the merchant and for fear of the laird.

7487. Why is a man who has a little money by him afraid of the merchant and of the laird?-That is just one of the evils of this truck system, and this system of not dealing in ready money on all occasions. I don't speak in favour of the population generally, more than I would do in favour of the merchant, or of the heritor, were it not for the truth. That is one of the consequences of the system, and to that extent I think it is very demoralizing.

7488. You think it is demoralizing that the system [Page 180] should lead a man to conceal the amount of his means in the way you have related?-Yes; and it leads to more than that.

7489. Do you think that arises from the system of payment in goods, and the system of running accounts?-Exactly.

7490. How is it the result of that system?-My opinion is, that with the merchant and such men, it is a case of diamond cut diamond. The fisherman who has an account with the merchant imagines that the merchant is taking an undue profit, and that it is from him, and therefore he sets himself to do everything he can against the merchant. I don't approve of the way in which the men act in order to counteract the merchant; but that is an effect of the system, because the man believes that the merchant is taking too large profit from him, and using him otherwise not in proper way.

7491. Is it a general impression among the people with whom you come in contact, that the merchant has too large profits?-I will give you an illustration, and that will serve for the whole. There was a gentleman examined to-day to whose evidence I listened with great pleasure, Mr. Morgan Laurenson. I do not mean that what I am now to state should tell against him, but it is rather in his favour; at least so far as I am to use it. At the time he left Ollaberry, there were very considerable sums of money due to him, certainly much more than I would have entrusted to a population such as the general Shetland population. He had to leave rather more suddenly than he expected, and he had not time to collect his debts. A man from Ollaberry came over to me, and I said, 'Are you sorry that Mr. Laurenson is going away from you?'-He said no. I asked if it was true that the people about Ollaberry were due him several hundreds of pounds?-He said, 'No; not we. He has had plenty out of us, he has had his profits which might make up for all that.' I said, ' Then you are not sorry?' and he said, 'I am not sorry for it at all.' That is just a consequence of that sort of dealing.

7492. Was that man a type of the ordinary Shetlander?-Yes. What he said to me was an instance of what results from this mode of proceeding, and I give it as an illustration.

7493. Was he not an unusual kind of man who said that?-No; his opinions are those which are privately held by nine-tenths of the whole population of Shetland.

7494. Do they tell you so?-Yes, they tell me so, and I know their sentiments quite well upon the subject.

7495. But Mr. Laurenson was only a partner of the firm, and the whole of these debts would not be due to him individually?-I understood he had certain debts that were due to himself, such as for hosiery; at any rate it was in his name that the thing was stated.

7496. You think therefore that the system leads to species of suspicion and a tendency to deceive?-Yes, and if you will allow me, I will give you another illustration. There was a poor sailor lad who died it few years ago, and a sum of about £5 or £6 was sent through by the Board of Trade as having belonged to him. The Board of Trade, for reasons which they are not ashamed to own, take very good care about the payments that they shall be made generally through the minister of the parish. This poor lad had left a widowed father at home in this parish with a number of children exceedingly helpless. I am not sure but that the father was on the Parochial Board; if he was not, I think he ought to have been, but I think he was. When the news came that his boy had been drowned, the man came to me a distance of eight miles to consult me, and he was very anxious about the way in which he was to get the money through the Board of Trade. His great care was that the merchant should not know anything about it, and for that purpose he came to me in the dark. He had a little boy, perhaps ten or twelve years old, whom he sent over after the arrival of every post, but always in the dark. The boy had come so far, that I asked him where he had come from. He told me where he lived, so many miles distant, but he said he had been told not to come until it was dark. I asked him why. He said, 'Because they would know of it in the shop.' At last the man came over himself in order to sign the documents, and he told me that the merchant had already been at him to give him the money. Now a system which produces such a mode of cheating one another must be immoral.

7497. But I suppose the merchant was entitled to be paid for his debt?-I'm only giving that as an illustration showing how destructive the system is to the morality of the common people, and I have only brought in the merchant because I could not give the illustration without mentioning him.

7498. But you are speaking rather against the people at present than against the merchant?-I am to tell the truth whatever will be its effects.

7499. Did you advise the man not to pay the merchant?-I had nothing to do with advising him. I gave him no advice whatever; it was not part of my duty. I was merely employed by the Board of Trade to hand over the money to him, and I did no more in the way of advising him what to do with it than the Board of Trade would have done. If he had asked me whether he should pay his debts, I would have told him that every man should pay his debts.

7500. But did you advise him not to pay the merchant?-I did no such thing.

7501. You left him to do as he liked with regard to that?- Distinctly.

7502. Did you know anything about the nature of the account which the merchant had against him?-Nothing whatever.

7503. Did you know that the account was due by him to the merchant?-He told me he was afraid of the merchant which led me to conclude at once that he had an account with him, but I knew nothing more about it than that.

7504. You only inferred that he might have an account, and you did not inquire further?-Quite so.

7505. Are you quite sure about that?-Perfectly sure. I knew nothing about the nature of the account, or the amount of the account, or what it was for, or anything about it.

7506. How long is it since that case happened?-It may have been three or four years ago, I cannot be sure of the time.

7507. Do you say that in that case the account was paid?-I don't know anything about that. The man only told me afterwards that the merchant made him give it up. I knew nothing further about it than that.

7508. You heard the evidence or the witnesses who were examined yesterday?-I did.

7509. Do you think that, generally speaking, they gave a correct description of their circumstances, and of the system on which they carry on their dealings?-My opinion is that generally they did not. From their private statements to me, it was my opinion-I only hold it as an opinion-that they, under terror and under influence, did not give the statements here which they ought to have given, and which they had given to me in private.

7510. That is only an opinion which you have formed from your experience of the statements of the people generally?-Yes; and from conversations which I have had with these witnesses.

7511. One of the witnesses, Mrs. Hughson, was examined with regard to statements made by her on a different occasion, and which were rather different from the statements she made here: did she make any different statement to you at any time from what she made here yesterday?-Unless compelled, I would decline to say anything that would criminate myself or her; but give it as my opinion generally that the witnesses, without naming any of them, gave a statement which I won't call untruthful, but which I say was not at statement in accordance with what my convictions are that they should have given, and I know the reason why.

7512. We don't in courts of law take a general [Page 181] statement of that kind in contradiction of the veracity of witnesses. It is only a matter of opinion; and although in this inquiry the legal rules of evidence have not been so very strictly observed as in courts of law, yet I think it is right to ask you whether on any occasion Mrs. Hughson made a different statement to you than that she made here?-With all respect to you and the office you hold, I must decline to answer that question, because I consider it is a question that might lead to consequences that I am not at all disposed for the general good to be subjected to. You asked me the question whether I approved generally of the evidence, and I said no, I did not, but I declined to particularise any individual person. But I will give you an illustration of the terror that is over the people, and I won't say that that woman is not included among those that are under that influence. I put a question to one man concerning a very important matter in relation to what I am to state to-day, and when I asked him to answer that question, the woman of the house, a married woman, seized me by the arms and exclaimed, 'Will that give offence to the merchant?-If it gives offence to the merchant, then we won't open our mouths.' That occurred only within the last ten days, and the same dread and terror are over the whole community around Hillswick with very few exceptions.

7513. What induces you to think that?-It is because they are all in debt to the shop, less or more.

7514. If you were told that these men were not in debt, or that the majority of them were not in debt, which may perhaps be proved in this inquiry before it is finished, to what would you attribute that terror then?-I cannot be told that; it cannot be proved against the facts that I know with regard to the people.

7515. I am not saying anything about the facts, but I am merely supposing the case that it is proved that the majority of the people are not so much in debt as you say: how then would you account for that terror?-I would say that if they were not very much in debt, then that feeling would not exist. There would then be a very different feeling among the people.

7516. May it be the case that that feeling arises from the certainty in the minds of these people that in the future they may yet require to run into debt to the merchant as they have done in the past?-There is no doubt that to a certain extent that feeling would operate, and they know, or at least they fear, and they have stated so to me that the moment they said anything that would give offence to the merchant, their credit would be stopped at once.

7517. Has the number of shops which exist in the district anything to do with that feeling?-How many shops are there, may I ask?

7518. That is what I want you to tell me. Do you think that if the shops were multiplied, and credit to be obtained at a greater number of shops that feeling would not exist to the same extent?- I would not be in favour of a multiplication of shops for the purpose of getting them the means of credit. I would be in favour of having free trade and giving no credit at all. If the number of shops were multiplied in the way of free trade, then a wholesome competition would be introduced, which I think would be an advantage. But you asked me a question about how many shops there are. Beginning at this part of the district, there is one at Hillswick, and then there is one at Brae, and another at Olnafirth.

7519. Is there a shop at Brae?-Yes; a very considerable place of business, one of the best in the country. Any other shops that may exist in the district are commonly called peerie (<i.e.> small) shops. They are very poor lads who have them, and what is more, they are generally selling to one or other of these three big shops.

7520. What do they sell to the large shops?-If I were one of the large shopkeepers, I would get a lad to open up a shop here and take fish for me or to sell to me, and I would send him down goods. The lad is apparently the merchant himself, but in reality he is selling for another.

7521. Do you know any case of that sort?-Yes; I have known it all my life.

7522. Do you know the individuals who are so connected with the larger shops?-Yes. If I go west to Stenness I find a man selling there, and if I ask him who he is selling for, he says, 'I am not the merchant, I am selling for so and so.' I go to another one who is apparently selling for himself, whereas it is well known that in reality he is not selling for himself, but for another party. It is no benefit for the population to have shops of that kind among them, because there is no competition at all.

7523. Do they all sell for the larger merchants?-Yes; they are just their menials or servants. I saw one of them examined yesterday.

7524. Do you know whether, in consequence of the cash payments here, tea or other goods pass from hand to hand among the people instead of money?-I am not aware of that. I only know about the purchases from the shops. I do not know what the people do with the articles after they get them.

7525. Is there any other way in which you think the present system is injurious, or any other point on which you desire to make any statement?-Besides being injurious in a moral point of view, the system is also injurious by leading the husband and wife to have separate accounts and separate transactions, and the children too. The house, instead of being united, is in reality divided against itself. Every member of the family has a separate interest; in that way mutual dependence is destroyed, and that affection which ought to subsist between children and parents has in a great measure disappeared from Shetland. A boy gets an account of his own when he is a mere child, or at least in boyhood, and as he grows up he thinks he has only himself to provide for. He has not that dependence or respect or affection for his parents which will lead him, when old age comes to them, to provide for them. I don't know any more prejudicial effect that any system can have upon the community than to see the rising generation growing up and their fathers neglected and despised, as they are in many cases here. That feeling is produced very much among the young people by the nature of their early training.

7526. Do you find that the parents are generally neglected by their children, and that there is a difficulty in enforcing their obligation to aliment their parents?-Yes; I find that very much, and any one who is connected with the country must see it as well.

7527. Have you found that in the course of your ordinary ministerial experience, or as a member of the Parochial Board?- I have not been at the Parochial Board for years, but I am well acquainted with the state of the poor who are on the roll. I will give a case which occurred in this neighbourhood as an illustration of what I mean. There was a woman who was on the Parochial Board; she belonged originally to a very decent and respectable family; her father was a small proprietor, but in the course of her life she became very poor, and I am not sure that she was not sometimes half demented. She had, I believe, three daughters in this parish, they are still in the parish, grown up, and two of them I think are mothers of families. None of them attended to their mother, and she had to be taken by the Parochial Board and boarded with the mother of the girl who was examined before me. She was kept there, and she died there, and not one of her three daughters who lived in the same parish ever came to the house where she was lying to ask how their mother was. She died and was buried, and not one of them came to look upon her face in the coffin or at her grave.

7528. How far were the houses of those daughters from the place where their mother lived?-I cannot tell exactly where they lived. I think one of them lived about half-way between this and Lochend, about six or seven miles from the place; another lived near North Roe. I cannot be sure where the third one lived; but the fact I have stated is one which is well known in the district.

7529. To what do you attribute that heartlessness [Page 182] on the part of the daughters?-I consider it arose from their early training produced by the system of credit.

7530. Is it not usually the case among the labouring classes, that the children of a family, the daughters and the sons as well, are virtually independent as soon as they begin to work for themselves?-Where?

7531. In the agricultural districts of Scotland for instance?-No; they are different altogether. I know about the agricultural districts very well, and the children there, when they grow up and go to service, the boys to herd cattle and the girls to be servants, are away for half a year, and then they come home to school But in this country, if a boy came home and went to school, he would have to pay for himself. I was once a schoolmaster in one of the agricultural districts for about four years, and, so far as I know, the children there when they came home were not made to pay for their own schooling or for their maintenance, but they just entered into the family again the same as they were before they went out. They would be away for perhaps half a year, and then they came back again, not to lounge about idle, but to be with their parents and to cherish and nourish them. That was the result of my four years' experience of teaching in a large parochial establishment.

7532. What becomes of the earnings of the children in these agricultural districts? Are they not at liberty to do with their earnings as they please?-Certainly; and there is no doubt they expend them upon clothing and things of that kind, just as they require them.

7533. And just as they do here?-No; it is very different here. They have all got accounts here, and these boys are all in debt. I have seldom met with a boy at the beach who was not in debt at the end of the service When I asked a boy what was the state of matters with him, he generally told me that he was due something to the merchant, but no such thing can take place with the children in the south. They get no credit, no books, no accounts.

7534. We had at specimen of that yesterday where a man told us he had been a boy at the beach, and that he had incurred debt while he was very young?-Yes; and it is impossible that it could be otherwise. Look at the little fee they get. They have to maintain themselves, and I would like to know how they can do that without being in debt.

7535. Do you think that sufficiently accounts for instances of heartlessness such as you have mentioned just now? Might such things not happen in any district with particular individuals?-It might happen to a certain extent, but not so generally as it does here.

7536. Do you say that the instance you have mentioned is only one of many instances of similar conduct?-It is only one of many that could be produced.

7537. Is there any other point to which you wish to speak?-Yes. I may say that I have read over carefully the evidence that was taken in Edinburgh, and that I concur entirely with the evidence given there by Mr. George Smith, Mr. John Walker, and Mr. Edmonstone of Buness. If there is any part of that evidence with which I don't agree, it is very trifling indeed. In Mr. Walker's evidence, this question was put to him:-' 44,368. But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' I want to qualify the answer which he made to that question. I think there has been a mistake of the printer there, and perhaps the next sentence qualifies it. If the next sentence is a qualification, then I agree with the whole of the answer, so far as my knowledge goes of the country. The question and the answer read thus:-'But the greater portion of that is not paid in coin?-Not a fraction of it.' I would not go so far as to say that not a fraction of it is paid in coin; but the next sentence is, 'If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it is an extraordinary thing;' and if that is taken as a qualification of the first part of the answer, then I agree with it entirely, as well as with the rest of Mr. Walker's evidence.

7538. Do you agree with this statement in answer to question 44,364: 'The eggs are the woman's part, she looks after the eggs and butter, and considers them her peculiar share'?-I concur with that entirely.

7539. Do you know whether it is the practice of the district that the woman generally has a separate account for the butter and eggs?- That is the case, so far as I know.

7540. Does she take the proceeds of the eggs and butter?-Yes. I sometimes met a little girl going along to the shop with some eggs, and she would tell me that she was going to the shop with them. I would meet her again coming back, and among other things she would have a little bag with her in which there would be some hard biscuits and tea. That would be what she was carrying back in exchange for the eggs.

7541. But these goods would go into the common stock for the maintenance of the family?-Yes; but I am told by the people that these articles do not form part of the husband's account.

7542. Still it does not make any separation between the interests of the husband and wife if the proceeds of the butter and eggs go for the maintenance of the family, just as the husband's earnings do?-But there is a separation, and I will give an illustration of it. Suppose a husband had to go to church with a dirty shirt, and he would say to his wife, 'You might have had a clean shirt for me to-day, my dear, to go to church with;' and she would reply, 'My butter and my eggs were not sufficient to get soap and soda; and therefore you must go to church with the shirt you have on,' that shows a separate interest between them. I give that, not as an actual case, but as a supposition which, sufficiently answers your question, and I think it goes to show a separate interest.

7543. Is there any other point to which you refer?-Yes. Mr. Smith says, in his evidence, that barter is hurtful to the independence of the people very much; with that I entirely agree. He says again, 'It destroys the independence of the people very much; they get careless.' I entirely agree with that else and can give illustrations of it. The next question is 'Does it encourage extravagance?-I should think it does, very much; they don't know the value of money.' There never was greater truth written than that, and Mr. Smith deserves great credit for stating it.

7544. Can you give me any illustration of that?-I know a case where a poor man and his family came in and took possession of from £70 to £90-I don't know the exact sum by the death of a brother. They got a book in the shop; the money never came into their hands at all, but so long as it lasted the book ran on, and I don't believe it was twelve months when the whole was exhausted, and they were in misery. That showed that they did not know the value of money. I will give another illustration which is worse than that. Another man came into possession of £230 or by the death of a relative in England. He got the money into his hands, and came to consult me as to what he should do with it. I said, 'When you have got so much money, you should lay it out and get 5 per cent. for it; and if you get that, then the interest will pay the rent of your land, and with your own labour and that of your wife and daughters, you may keep the amount all the days of your life, and you can hand down the £230 to your children.' He said, 'I am determined to do everything you have advised, and that money shall go down to my children, so far as I am concerned.' Twelve months had not passed over when that man had to be rouped out, and left the neighbourhood without any means; which proves what Mr. Smith said, that they don't know the value of money.

7545. How did that man spend it?-I don't know, but it was all gone.

7546. Do you find that the women dress more expensively here than they do in other places?-I think very much more so.

7547. Do you think that a woman who knits, and who has a separate account of her own in the women's book, is induced to spend more of her earnings on dress than she would otherwise do?-Yes; arising from the fact that, to a great extent at least, they can only get clothing for their knitting.

7548. It is quite true that in Lerwick only soft [Page 183] goods are given for knitting; but in this district there is a difference, and provisions are also given in exchange for it?-There may be a little provisions given but I can assure you, from my knowledge of the people, that that is not a general thing. It is in cottons and soft goods generally that the hosiery is paid for.

7549. But do the women dress more expensively than they need to do?-I think so; and they are influenced to do that by the way in which the system is carried on. There are things kept in the shops to catch their fancy, and when they take their knitting in they are shown some dresses, and they fix upon one. They have already told you that they get no money; and they have told me that they can get no money although they were to ask for it. Now, a girl in the south may dress very well, and servants there do dress very respectably; but I know servants in the south who don't make more money in the course of a year than a woman makes here by knitting, and yet they have considerable sums the bank, while that is not the case here.

7550. You say the women go into the shops, and are induced to buy by having goods exposed to them in that way: how do you know that?-I know it by them telling me how they get them, both here and at Lerwick.

7551. Have you asked them how they happened to have so many fine dresses?-I asked a man, who had a very industrious family of daughters, where they got this fine thing and the next fine thing, and he told me.

7552. You are now speaking of a particular case?-Yes. He said they are very industrious, and when they have got a certain quantity of work done they go to Lerwick with it; and they go into this shop and see this fine thing, and go into the next shop and see the next fine thing. I said, 'Do they get any money?' and he said, 'Not one single farthing.' When I asked him why, he said: 'I don't know; but they want it, and I have to give them money to take them into Lerwick.'

7553. You were speaking of a system of terrorism which prevails, or is alleged to prevail, here: if that terrorism exists, how do you account for witnesses coming forward and speaking at all?-But what have they said?

7554. We had two or three men who were not cited?-I saw one man here who was not by any means a representative of the ordinary tenants. He was not a representative of the class among whom he lives.

7555. Have you seen many fishermen here during the last day or two?-Not very many.

7556. I have been a little at it loss myself to know why fewer people have appeared here than at other places with even less population. Can you give me any explanation of it?-They told me beforehand that they dursn't come, and that they would not come; and I will give you an illustration. I went into the house of a man who had been complaining to me about his debts at the shops, and about the misery he was in; and when I got the notice to see what witnesses would come forward and give evidence, I said to myself, 'This man who has complained so much to me will surely come forward.' I went to him, and in presence of his family I asked whether he would give evidence before you. I did not tell him to do so, but said, 'If you are willing now to state your grievances, you have an opportunity of doing so.' The man stood up and trembled, and said, ''Mr. Sutherland, it is the truth that you have said! It is the truth that we are crushed; but I am in such a position with the merchant that I dare not do it.' I went to another man, and said, 'You have been crying about your miseries: will you come forward and state them now?' He said, 'Yes, I will come forward and state them.' I said, 'You are not in debt, are you?'-'Yes, I am in debt.' 'How much are you in debt?' 'I am in debt £13 down at the shop;' and this man had not thirteen placks. Then, to show that what Mr. Smith said about the system destroying their idea of the value of money was true, I turned to the wife and said, 'Have you £13 of debt?-and she said, 'Is that all?-that's nothing.' I mention that to show the woman's appreciation of the value of debt.

7557. Is that the way in which you account for the small attendance on this occasion on the part of the fishermen, and their apparent want of interest in it?-Yes; I attribute it to that wholly and to nothing else.

7558. I must say that although the meeting here has been intimated throughout the parish, yet I believe it has been somewhat less extensively intimated, in consequence of the distance of the place from Lerwick, than it would otherwise have been. Is not that sufficient to account for the absence of the men?-No; there have been people here from North Roe, and from Stenness, and from Ollaberry.

7559. But these were cited?-They may have been, but all the people knew about it quite well. Again, I sent for three or four parties who lived not two miles from the schoolhouse, and had them over with me, and said, 'You have complained bitterly about your condition before: will you come now and give information about it?' They said, 'We will do it;' but two or three days afterwards one of them came back and said he would not do it, as it would just make their case worse.

7560. I believe you have taken a great interest in this matter yourself?-I have only taken an interest in it for the welfare of the poor people of this country.

7561. But you have long held strong opinions as to the distress prevailing in Shetland?-I have; and when an opportunity was given to me, I have always condemned the system which existed.

7562. When you received the circular from me, which was sent to all the merchants and clergymen throughout the country, you replied that you were willing to come forward as a witness, and you sent me a list of witnesses?-I did.

7563. Since then you have been taking some trouble in the matter, and have been speaking to people about coming forward and giving evidence?-Yes; and I did everything I could to get them to come forward. All I wanted was to get them to come here and tell the truth, whatever it might be. If you will allow me will give another illustration of the terrorism which exists. If I buy corn or straw from any person in this neighbourhood for my horse or my cows, I would only get it delivered to me in the dark, because the people are afraid the merchants would know about it. I always get it in the dark, and I pay down the money for it at once.

7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark. If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man who lives outside the dyke at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living within the dyke of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me except in the dark.

7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous; but some years there is a good deal of it.

7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quantities?-I cannot get it except in small quantities; just what the people can spare to me.

7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are many others.

7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular article I purchase it here.

7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from the south?-So far as I know, it is.

[Page 184]

7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them.

7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality, because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge upon their goods.

7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am not accusing him at all.

7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is the system I object to.

7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known several cases of that kind.

7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be, in order to correct this evil.

7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end of it.

7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than what I find around me, but the system would make them what they are on both sides.

7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were conducted in this part of the country.

7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants, we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.

7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to payments from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, or any society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished, and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south.

7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and handed over to the merchant who was principally concerned in the fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and her share was £6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show you the £6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that purpose that charity is given in the south?

7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for which the subscription was made. The money was collected by the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband.

7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give more cases the same kind.

7584. That was not a case where the money came from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private subscription. I knew another case where several boats were lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny, and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop. That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman.

7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for Shetland?

7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing for such a purpose as that money was applied to.

7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had happened. £3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave 10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was quite correct.

7588. How long was that after the subscription had been collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected, but it is only a week ago since I went to the man.

7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.'

7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was paid to the merchant at Hillswick.

[Page 185]

7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?' 'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.'

7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a couple of years.

7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I met him, I said, 'What was done with the £3, 10s.?' or whatever was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned, seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to the merchant.'

7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick.

7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85 years of age, and I don't believe he would be able.

7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case in connection with the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society which I may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid into the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society, either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent, said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world whether the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case, but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such thing.

7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's account, but that it was only done in a case where the account was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean by giving this evidence is, in order that the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it.

7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known.

7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this morning?-I did.

7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked.

7601. Do you think there is any objection to that practice? Is there any reason why a man should not secure his debt by taking possession of the cattle of his debtor?-I hold that there ought to be no such seizure, and no such clandestine way of securing a man's debt. There are processes of law open to a man for securing his debt, if he chooses to avail himself of them.

7602. But the thing is done with the consent of the debtor?-That may be said, but my opinion is, that the debtor is not in a position to refuse; and in cases where it is done, it is done not only for the purpose of securing the man himself, but to keep the cattle from falling into the hands of another man to whom a debt is due.

7603. Are you speaking of cases which you know?-Yes. Suppose I have cattle, and I am due you an account, and you give me provisions at your shop, perhaps another man, to whom I am also in debt, won't be so liberal, and I will tell you to come and mark my cattle and let the other man whistle. That is the way in which it is done. Now, such a practice is most immoral in its effects.

7604. In what way?-Because this man cheats the other one. I should have made a fair failure, and then both men would have got a share of the balance I could pay.

7605. Do you know whether the price credited to the debtor in such a case is generally a fair price?-I have no means of knowing that.

7606. Is the price ascertained by a public sale?-It may be in some cases, but I know in many cases it is not.

7607. Do you think that, for the introduction of ready-money system, a multiplication of banks would be necessary?-I don't think it.

7608. Does not the fact that banks only exist in Lerwick act as a bar to the introduction of such a system?-No; I think that difficulty could easily be met. For instance, the Union Bank at Lerwick had their principal institution at the top of the town; but when opposition came, they opened small shop in the principal street in Lerwick, and they have now two offices there, a small one and a large one. Now, if the credit system were put an end to, for the sake of both parties, both merchants and people, there would soon be a small bank opened at Hillswick, if it should be nowhere else.

7609. How do people do with regard to banking just now?-The banking is very easily conducted, so far as I know, because the people have little money in their hands.

7610. Don't you know that many fishermen have large accounts in the bank in Lerwick already?-I know that some of the fishermen have a little there; but I know that the large accounts are not in the banks. I know from their statements where they get 5 per cent. for their money, and that is not from the bank.

7611. Where do they get that?-I won't mention any particular place, but they get it from the merchants in Shetland.

7612. Are there many men who are in a position have accounts of that kind with the merchants?-Several of them of the better class have told me about that themselves.

7613. Are these the one-fourth or one-third of the whole whom you mentioned, or a part of them?-They don't make one-fourth of the whole. The parties who could have such accounts would not perhaps come to one-sixth of the whole. Of course, I am speaking generally when I give that proportion.

7614. Do you mean that it is only one-sixth of the one-third who are well-doing, that have such accounts?-I should say it would not be more than one-sixth of the one-third who had them.

7615. Are there many public-houses in your parish?-No; properly speaking, there are no public-houses at all. There are shops where spirits are sold, but there is no public-house. At Hillswick, for instance, there is a shop with a back-shop to which the men go round and get whisky.

7616. But not to be consumed on the premises?-I never was there; but I understand the men do drink in that back place. I know that from their own statements to me.

7617. Does each merchant who keeps a shop and cures fish, have a grocer's licence?-No; I think there are licences in North Roe and Ollaberry as well as here. I may give a statement with regard to whisky [Page 186] since it has been mentioned. I hold in my hand the account of a fisherman for goods supplied to him at the shop; and I find that, during the six months over which it extends, the value of the whisky supplied was 14s. 10d. The way in which it came into my hands was this: A gentleman in the south was responsible for the account, and when it was sent to him, he was so horrified about it that he sent it from Edinburgh to me to inquire into, and I saw the people.

7618. How long was that since?-I think it is about three years ago. I sent the account to a merchant in the south to analyze it, so that I might report to the gentleman. I got back an analysis of it, with this written upon it: 'This account cannot be made payable in any court of law;' and the grounds for that opinion were stated to be, that there had been nothing weighed and nothing measured in the account, and they held that no account could be made payable in law that was neither measured nor weighed.

7619. Have you a copy of that account?-No; but I can give the name of the party in Edinburgh who got it. What I mention it for, is to show that there was 14s. 10d. charged for in six months in various small sums. There was also a large sum paid in cash; and I was so struck with that, as the man was not married, that I went to another person who was acquainted with the manner in which business was carried on in Shetland, and asked him what was meant by so much cash being paid. He said, 'Oh, that is money which is borrowed in the one shop and drunk in the other.' That is the explanation I got, whether it was true or not.

7620. But that was the explanation of a third party who had no concern with the account?-Yes. When I sent the document to the gentleman in Edinburgh, he said he would pay that amount, but he would pay no more; and after that he sent me £5 a-year, from which I make payments to the man every month.

7621. In this account there is £1, 14s. 10d. and £1, 14s. 2d. in cash which you say was also spent in whisky?-I was only told about that by a party who said he knew about the same thing having been done. In this account there is 2s. 6d. entered for sweeties, verifying what was said in some of the evidence, that sweeties were given to make up the balance. With regard to whisky, I may explain that I had some whisky tested by a qualified party, which I believe was sold in the shops at 9d. per gill. The profit upon that, on being tested, was found to be 55 per cent. I also had tea sent and tested, for which the people had paid 3s. per pound, and the proper judge, to whom I sent it, sent me word that it was exactly 2s. tea, there being 50 per cent. of profit charged upon it.

7622. Who tested the tea?-A tea merchant in Aberdeen.

7623. Who tested the whisky?-A spirit-dealer also in Aberdeen. I sent these articles to be tested in order to show the enormous prices which are charged by these merchants. I have no interest in the matter myself, except that my poor parishioners should not pay more than they ought to pay, and also that an end might be put to a system which is injurious both to merchants and people.

7624. What remedy would you propose for the existing state of matters, and for the evils which are alleged to exist?-My remedy would be to declare the present truck system to be penal.

7625. What would you desire to be penal?-The truck system.

7626. But the truck system, properly so called, is penal; and the question in this inquiry is, whether other things are to be included within the operation of the Acts which apply to the truck system?-Well, I mean that this system of carrying on business in Shetland should be declared to be penal.

7627. Do you mean that you would make it penal to give long credit for shop goods?-I would make it penal to give any credit at all, and I would admit either party to give evidence against the other party for infringement of that statute, and would be to make all debts so incurred irrecoverable by any process of law. These three things are what I think would form a remedy for the present state of matters. At the same time, I am just as convinced that the merchant ought to live, and must live, and have a reasonable profit, as I am that the people should not pay more for their articles than they are worth.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JAMES BRUCE, examined.

7628. You are the schoolmaster of this parish, and inspector of poor?-I am.

7629. How long have you been inspector of poor?-For twenty-two years.

7630. I understand the number of paupers in this parish is fifty-three?-Yes; exclusive of dependants. I now exhibit an abstract of the accounts for all the time I have been in the office of inspector, which I keep for any own satisfaction and the satisfaction the Board.

7631. Do you think the amount of pauperism in the parish has diminished or increased in your experience?-I think it has kept very much about the same some years back.

7632. Do you think that pauperism is increased or affected in any way by habits arising from the system of protracted credit which exists in the parish, or have you formed any opinion at all upon the subject?-I have formed no opinion upon that, but I know that the Poor-Law has acted very injuriously upon the parish by increasing the expenses.

7633. That is to say, it has acted injuriously as regards those who pay the assessment, whatever it may have done with regard to the condition of the paupers themselves?-Yes. For a long time after the passing of the Act, we kept on the old system of quartering and paying the paupers through the session fund, and so on, and the heritors generally contributed a certain amount yearly to meet any balance due.

7634. I presume the payments made to the paupers are made in money?-Yes; all in money, except clothing, which is taken round to them.

7635. How long has that system prevailed?-Since the Poor-Law came into operation in the parish.

7636. Since 1845?-Not since 1845; nor for several years afterward. The legal assessment, I think, came on in 1861.

7637. You say that all clothing to the paupers is furnished by the inspector?-Yes; furnished by myself.

7638. Where is it purchased?-At any of the shops in the district, generally where the paupers live. Anything that is required for paupers in North Roe I generally purchase from Mr. Greig.

7639. In this district where is it purchased?-Generally at Hillswick, from Mr. Anderson.

7640. Is there any other place except these two shops where it is purchased?-Yes; at Ollaberry and Lochend from Mr. Laurenson.

7641. You purchase it yourself and deliver it to the paupers?- Yes.

7642. When their allowances are due in money, are they paid in money?-Yes; they call up for it-all those who are round me. At North Roe I send a cheque to Mr. Greig previous to the time for the amount to be distributed.

7643. If a pauper is unable to come here, how is his allowance conveyed to him?-They generally send their tickets, and I send the money by any person who can convey it. It is paid on tickets.

7644. What kind of ticket?-It is just an account of the allowances given to the paupers, and it is authorized by the Board of Supervision. It is the receipt for the money. The pauper keeps the ticket in his own possession, and whenever I get the ticket I pay the money, and mark it on the back. The pauper comes himself, if able and if not he sends the ticket.

7645. Was the allowance never paid by means of orders for meal? -Previous to the legal assessment [Page 187] coming into operation in the parish in 1861, it was sometimes paid in that way, and sometimes in cash.

7646. Has it ever been paid by an order for meal or food since then?-Not to my recollection, except it may be in the case of the applicants for casual relief, or applicants coming to me seeking relief before the meeting of the Board. In that case, sometimes, but not often, I would give an order for a little meal. I generally do that when I have not sufficient confidence in the economy of the party, and when I think the allowance may be put to some other use than the purchase of meal or necessaries.

7647. Has it never been paid to paupers regularly on the roll by means of an order upon the shop?-No; not since the Act came into operation in the parish.

7648. Are you quite sure of that?-I think I am perfectly sure, so far as my recollection goes.

7649. Have any of the paupers on the roll ever asked you to give them a line or an order on the shop for meal or other requirements?-No; not to my recollection. They always get their cash.

7650. Have you ever had occasion to transact business with paupers, or to make payment of their allowances at the shop at Hillswick, or at any of the shops in the neighbourhood?-No; I don't practise that at all.

7651. Has it ever been done?- Very seldom, I think.

7652. But it may have been done?-At the last month's pay there were two poor women living about five miles from this, who, I knew, could not come themselves, and I was doubtful that they might not get a person to come for them; therefore I sent word to them to send their ticket to Mr. Anderson and get the money. That was only done on one occasion.

7653. That is the only occasion within your recollection?-Yes. Mr. Anderson generally draws the money for me from the bank; and when I run out of change, I send down the pauper to him with a note for money; but that does not often happen. It is simply when I am out of change.

7654. Mr. Anderson merely acts as your banker?-Yes.

7655. He draws the money as the chairman of the Board?-Yes; and it is handy for me, because I get the small change from him that I require.

7656. How often does it happen in the course of a year that you give an order of that sort?-I could not say how often it happens. I only remember one other instance of it just now, besides the one I have referred to. The person called here, and I did not have the change; and as the person was going to Hillswick, I gave a note on Mr. Anderson to give the money. But it is not at all a common practice.

[The sitting was here adjourned till the evening.]

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR HARRISON, examined.

7657. You are a merchant at Hillswick?-Yes, at Urrafirth.

7658. You were for some years in the employment of Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.

7659. And you are now in business on your own account at Urrafirth?-Yes.

7660. Do you employ any fishermen?-No.

7661. Are you in business in the drapery and provision line?-No; I only deal in groceries.

7662. Do you not keep any soft goods at all?-Yes; I have a few pieces of cotton.

7663. You are just beginning business?-Yes.

7664. Had you any difficulty in getting shop accommodation?- Yes, a little.

7665. In what way? Was it not easy to find a shop in this parish?-No; it was not easy.

7666. How so?-The heritor did not wish to give it to me; and I had a lease saying that I was not to commence business.

7667. You had a lease of what?-Of a bit of ground which I held.

7668. Was it a lease of the premises you now possess?-Yes.

7669. When did you take that lease?-Fourteen years ago.

7670. You have lived there for fourteen years, and had a piece of ground?-Yes.

7671. And the lease prohibited you from carrying on any shop business?-Yes; but the heritor allowed me to cure fish, and to keep a little to supply the people whom I employed.

7672. In what way did you employ them?-I employed them, and paid them every Saturday night.

7673. In what business?-In curing fish-drying Faroe cod. I don't buy the cod; I cure it for Mr. Adie.

7674. Is that your principal occupation?-Yes.

7675. And the landlord agreed to allow you to keep small shop for supplying provisions to these men?-Yes.

7676. Is that all you are doing now?-Yes.

7677. Did you receive a letter from the Busta trustees, forbidding you to carry on a shop business there, or stating that you could not be allowed to hold the premises for the purpose of doing so?-No, I received no letter; but in my lease it is stated that I am not to carry on anything but the curing business.

7678. But you had that fourteen years ago?-Yes.

7679. Have you had any communication with the Busta trustees, or with any one of them, on the subject since you took your lease?- Yes.

7680. With whom?-With Mr. Gifford and Mr. Hay.

7681. Was that communication in writing?-No; it was personally with them at Busta.

7682. Did you apply to them for leave to carry on a more extensive business in the way of a shop?-No; I did not apply for anything more than what I got.

7683. What was it you went to see them about?-I went to ask for liberty to cure fish, and keep a small store.

7684. When did you do so?-About November 1869.

7685. Was that shortly after you left Mr. Anderson's employment?-No; it was before.

7686. Did they grant you that permission?-Yes; latterly it was granted.

7687. But it was not granted to you at first?-No.

7688. For what reason?-I don't know for what reason.

7689. Did they not assign a reason for not granting you that permission?-Yes. I think they said it was too near Hillswick.

7690. What was the meaning of that?-That the starting of another business there might reduce the value of Hillswick, and therefore it would not pay such a rent.

7691. Did you understand from that, that in granting Mr. Anderson a lease of the premises at Hillswick, they had become bound not to allow any other shops to be opened in the district?-No; they did not say anything like that.

7692. Was it with Mr. Gifford this conversation took place?-Yes.

7693. Was it implied that they had some reason for not interfering with Mr. Anderson's business?-Yes; at least the reason he gave was not so much that it would interfere with Mr. Anderson's business, as that it would bring down the rent of Hillswick, and would not advance the property anything.

7694. Do you mean that if you were to open a shop there, the necessary result would be that Mr. Anderson would require to have his rent reduced?-Yes; that is likely to have been what was meant.

7695. How long after that was it when you got permission to open your present shop?-I don't know exactly how long it was. Perhaps it may have been a month or two after it was spoken of first. I then got [Page 188] liberty to cure the fish and keep provisions for the men I employed; that was all.

7696. But only for the men you employed?-That was all the liberty I got.

7697. Are you not allowed to sell to anybody except the people you employ?-I never asked any more liberty than that.

7698. When you first went to ask for that permission, had you made arrangements to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-No.

7699. Had you made the arrangement by the second time you went?-Yes.

7700. Did you say to Mr. Gifford, when you went the second time, that you had made such an arrangement?-Yes; I told him I had got the offer of fish to cure.

7701. Was he more ready to grant your application on that occasion?-Yes. He said I could take the work.

7702. Had you spoken to Mr. Anderson about the matter in the interval?-I don't remember; perhaps I might.

7703. You were trying to set up your business at that time?-Yes.

7704. Don't you remember whether you applied to Mr. Anderson with regard to that matter at all?-Yes. I believe I told him then what had passed between me and Mr. Gifford at first.

7705. Did Mr. Anderson then agree to withdraw any objection he might have to it?-He did not say anything about that.

7706. In what way did you come to make an arrangement with Mr. Adie?-He had been told that I intended to commence curing fish, and he offered me some to cure.

7707. Was it through Mr. Anderson that that was done?-I don't know.

7708. Did the offer from Mr. Adie come to you through Mr. Anderson?-No. He wrote me directly and I replied accepting his offer, and then I went and saw him at Voe.

7709. Do you buy the fish from Mr. Adie's boatmen?-No; I buy no fish.

7710. They are delivered to you by Mr. Adie's boatmen on his account, and you cure them for Mr. Adie, employing your own people and receiving a contract price for the curing?-Yes.

7711. How long had you been in Mr. Anderson's service before that time?-Upwards of twenty years.

7712. All the time as a shopman?-Not all the time, but perhaps for eighteen years as a shopman.

7713. Why did you leave his employment?-There was some difference between us, and we thought it best to part.

7714. Was there a quarrel about money matters, or anything of that kind?-No; there was no great quarrel.

7715. After you were refused that permission in the first instance by the Busta trustees, did Mr. Anderson agree in any way not to object to you having the shop, provided your sales were limited to the men whom you employed yourself?-No; Mr. Anderson never objected to me, nor in my presence; I did not hear him objecting.

7716. Did you know of him objecting?-I could not say that I knew of it.

7717. Did you think he was objecting?-Yes.

7718. What made you think that: was it what Mr. Gifford said?-I think it was.

7719. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have less objection to it when he knew it was Mr. Adie who was concerned in the business?-I took no thought of that.

7720. Do you know that Mr. Adie had interfered on your behalf with Mr. Gifford?-Not to my knowledge.

7721. Did you ask him to do so?-No.

7722. Have you any reason to suppose that he interfered on your behalf with Mr. Anderson?-Yes. He wrote to Mr. Anderson about me, inquiring why had left, and asking for testimonials.

7723. Was that before he wrote to you making the offer?-It was when I was asking goods from him. I don't remember exactly whether it was before or after.

7724. Do you sell the goods for Mr. Adie, or do you sell them on your own account?-I sell them on my own account.

7725. Do you get them from Mr. Adie at wholesale prices?-Yes.

7726. At least you get them from him at a lower rate than that at which you sell them?-Yes.

7727. Was it before or after you got leave from the Busta people to open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say exactly when it was, but it was before I got the goods from Mr. Adie.

7728. Was it before you had got permission to open the shop that you applied to Mr. Adie for the goods?-No; I had got permission before I applied for the goods.

7729. Then it was after you had got permission open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-Very likely it was but I don't know. I did not know about him having written until some time afterwards, when he told me.

7730. When you arranged with Mr. Adie about the fish-curing, was anything said about you having a shop from which to supply the people with goods?-No.

7731. Are you sure of that?-Yes. I wrote to him, and I never said anything about that.

7732. But you went to see him after that?-Yes; it was only then I spoke about the goods.

7733. Was it on your way home from Voe that you called at Busta and saw Mr. Gifford about the shop the second time?-No; it was before I went to Voe.

7734. Was it on your way to Voe?-I don't remember. Perhaps it may have been on a different day altogether.

7735. But it was before you went to Voe, and after you had got the letter from Mr. Adie?-Yes.

7736. You don't know from Mr. Adie or Mr. Anderson whether there had been any letters between them about you until after you were at Voe that time?-I don't know.

7737. Do you think there was any such letter?-I don't know of any, but there may have been.

7738. How did you know of the other letter first: did you see it?- No.

7739. Who told you of it?-Mr, Adie.

7740. Was that at another time when you called upon him?-No; it was the first time-the time when I went to him and asked for goods. He told me then that he had written to Mr. Anderson and got his reply.

7741. That is not what you told me before: did you not say before, that you thought it was after you had asked for the goods that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-It was after I had agreed for the fish.

7742. Then the first time you saw Mr. Adie was at Voe before you opened the shop, and when you went to ask for goods?-Yes.

7743. And when you were at Voe at that time Mr. Adie told you he had written to Mr. Anderson, and had received a reply from him containing a certificate?-Yes.

7744. Did Mr. Adie tell you at the same time that he had seen Mr. Gifford?-I cannot say.

7745. What department did you manage in Mr. Anderson's shop?-I was fish-curer and factor for the summer time at Stenness.

7746. Do you know William Inkster?-Yes.

7747. Do you remember three or four years ago when he left Mr. Adie and came to fish to Mr Anderson?-Yes.

7748. Did you know that he did that because Mr. Adie had refused him supplies on account of a debt?-No; I did not know that.

7749. Did you know that he was in Mr. Adie's debt at that time?- Yes.

7750. Do you know that Mr. Anderson took over the debt?-Yes.

7751. Is it a common thing here for a fish-merchant to take over the debt of a fisherman who leaves another employer and comes to him?-Yes.

[Page 189]

7752. Have you heard of that frequently among the fishermen?- Yes. It has been the practice so long as I can remember, except some time after Mr. Anderson came here, when it was not done. Then, a fisherman who had got an advance from one merchant, would go to another and leave his balance unpaid, and therefore the old system was renewed again.

7753. Do you know the nature of the arrangement which was made when the system was renewed?-I do not.

7754. Do you know what the arrangement is?-I never saw the arrangement.

7755. I don't suppose it was in writing?-I could not say.

7756. Do you know what the practice generally is now in such cases?-Yes. The merchant generally pays the man's balance before giving him anything.

7757. That is to say, the new employer pays the man's balance before agreeing with him to fish for him for the season?-Yes.

7758. Is the whole balance paid, or only a part of it?-That is just as they can arrange.

7759. Is there a rule that a man is not to be taken by new employer without his balance being paid to the old one?-I think that is generally understood now.

7760. Do you know over what district that arrangement prevails? Do you know what fish-merchants do that?-I think it extends no further than to the men fishing at Stenness, and from Voe to Hillswick.

7761. Does that include Messrs. Adie, Mr. Anderson, and Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

7762. Were you aware that that was always done when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment?-No, it was not always done, but it was practised before I came into Mr. Anderson's employment at all.

7763. But when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment, was it not always done?-No, not always.

7764. You mean that the arrangement ceased for a while, and was renewed?-Yes.

7765. How long is it since it was renewed?-I cannot tell.

7766. Was it before William Inkster came to Mr. Anderson?- Yes, some time before that.

7767. Did you know that it was done in other cases besides Inkster's?-Yes.

7768. Was it done in many cases?-I don't remember of many.

7769. Was it commonly known among the fishermen that there was such a rule?-Yes, latterly, I believe, it was generally known.

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON (recalled).

7770. You showed me some of your books yesterday, in which I saw the name of William Inkster, Stenness and you explained to me that a large sum of money, upwards of £40, which stood against him in your books when he began to fish at the beginning of last year, was the continuation of a balance that had been against him for some years previously: is that so?-Yes. I would rather not mention names, unless you think it necessary, because I make it a rule with my shopmen that they are never to mention any man's balance, whether it is due by him or not, on pain of being turned off.

7771. You told me that this large balance consisted partly of an account which Inkster had incurred to Mr. Adie at Voe, and which you had taken over when the man began to fish for you?-Yes.

7772. What was the amount of the original debt which you took over from Mr. Adie?-I think it came to about £20.

7773. Inkster left Mr. Adie, I understand, in consequence of his supplies being stopped?-I don't know the reason exactly.

7774. But he came to fish for you?-Yes.

7775. How did it happen that you undertook his debt at the end of the first season he fished for you?-It was in consequence of an agreement that exists between Mr. Adie, Mr. Inkster of Brae, and me, with reference to each other's fishermen.

7776. What is the nature of that agreement?-It was entered into just to protect ourselves from those men who want to escape from paying their debts. I think we're bound to each other not to take the men without making some arrangement to see that their debts shall be paid.

7777. Do you undertake to pay the whole debt, or only a part of it, according to circumstances?-It is the whole debt.

7778. Was this a verbal arrangement?-No.

7779. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes.

7780. Have you got it?-I have not. I rather think I got a copy sent to me at one time but I think Mr. Adie has the extended agreement.

7781. Have you got a copy of it now?-I have not.

7782. Have you lost it?-No. It is very likely among my papers, but I cannot say. It is a long time since I came across it.

7783. Has this arrangement been of long standing? Do you remember the date of it?-I cannot exactly say the date. I think it must be from five to nine years since it was entered into, but I cannot speak accurately as to the date.

7784. Has the arrangement been acted upon?-Yes.

7785. When a fisherman leaves one master, and goes to another of those three, the debt due to the former master is generally paid by the new one?-Yes.

7786. You showed me in your invoice book an entry of the last purchase of oatmeal you had made from Messrs. Glenny, Aberdeen, for the purposes of your business, as follows:-'1871 June 19. 50 sacks oatmeal, sacks 50s., £100'?-Yes. The 50s. is the price of the sacks, to be returned or kept.

7787. A sack of oatmeal consists of 280 lbs.?-Yes.

7788. What is the selling price of a lispund?-5s. 4d.

7789. Has that been the price for some time?-It has been the price during the last season.

7790. You also showed me an invoice of flour from Messrs. J. & J. Tod, Dalkeith:-'1871. October 2. 2 sacks extra superfine flour, at 44s., £4, 8s.;' and another invoice, containing these entries:- 'October 19. 2 sacks No. 2 flour, at 45s., £4, 10s., 1 sack oatmeal, £2'?-Yes. The sacks in these invoices are charged separately.

7791. What is the selling price of the flour?-6s. 6d. per lispund. Flour is also sold by the lispund here.

7792. Both the flour and the oatmeal in the invoice of October 19 were intended for the purposes of your business?-Yes. Besides the invoice price, there are freight and charges to be taken into account. The freight and landing would be 2s. per sack for the oatmeal. That is the steamer's freight to Lerwick, and then it is brought by a small packet which comes round by Roenesshill when she has anything like a cargo. The small packet charges 1s. 6d. per sack; it is double freight coming round the hill; so that probably the freight and landing charges will be 3s. 6d. per sack.

7793. Are these all the charges?-I think so. There would also be insurance charged against me; it is at my risk when shipped. It was not insured in this case, but still that ought to be reckoned, because I ran the risk. I don't know the rate of insurance. I have paid as high as 35s. per cent. of insurance from Leith, but I have got it much cheaper insured in Glasgow-I think 7s. 6d. per cent.

7794. Is that for goods in general, or for any particular kind of goods?-Just for general goods.

7795. You heard the evidence that was given this morning?-Yes.

7796. Is there any statement you have heard from any of the witnesses which you wish to correct, or anything you wish to say in addition to what you said yesterday?-Yes. I think I would be inclined to differ from [Page 190] the description which Mr. Sutherland gave of the people. My experience of them has been very different.

7797. You would be disposed to give the Shetland people a better character than he gave them?-I think so. I think they can bear favourable comparison with any people of the same class that I have come across in other parts of the world.

7798. In respect of frugality?-Yes.

7799. And foresight?-Yes; and activity in business.

7800. And for their moral virtues?-Yes.

7801. Is it not the case that a considerable part of the year is spent in comparative idleness by the Shetland fishermen?-I believe it is, but that perhaps does not arise from any unwillingness on their part to work.

7802. From what does it arise?-From want of employment.

7803. Have they not their land?-They have their land, but, as I observed before, there is a bar to improvement there.

7804. Would it not be possible to introduce a more extensive system of winter fishing than that which exists now?-I don't think it.

7805. It seems a little peculiar, does it not, that the summer fishing should be prosecuted in the big boats, and that only the small boats should be sent out in winter?-They prosecute the fishing in the big boats in winter too, when the weather permits.

7806. But they don't go so far to sea in winter as in summer?-No; they don't go so far.

7807. I understood it was principally the small boats that went out in winter?-That is true, but on several occasions they employ the big boats too. But the smaller boats, when the weather permits, are much handier and lighter to manage.

7808. Are they safer?-They are equally safe when the weather permits.

7809. But would they not be able to go greater distances to sea with the big boats?-It would not matter much what size of boat they had if they were caught at sea by a gale.

7810. Is it not the case that on the east coast of Scotland the fishing is prosecuted for nine or ten months in the year; and that the fishermen there, who are a very comfortable class, have no occupation except that of fishermen? I am not asking you at present about any separation between fishing and agriculture, but don't you think it would be possible to prosecute the fishing in Shetland to the same extent, and for the same length of time, as it is prosecuted on the east coast of Scotland?-I don't think it.

7811. Is that owing to the weather?-It is owing to the weather, and the great exposure to the Atlantic, and the great swell that comes in from it. A very light puff of wind raises a tremendous sea in winter, that scarcely any boat could live in.

7812. In some parts of Shetland, where there is not so much exposure, is not the winter fishing prosecuted to some extent?- Yes.

7813. And to a greater extent than it is here?-Yes; that is done about Yell Sound, for instance. They are protected there on almost all sides.

7814. Here you are exposed to westerly gales which do not affect the fishermen on the east coast?-That is so.

7815. Is that the principal reason why the fishing is not prosecuted here so much in winter?-That is partly the reason.

7816. Is there any other reason why the winter fishing does not succeed here?-Yes. Every experienced fisherman knows that it is only at certain seasons of the year that the ling come over the ground in any quantities; and that is, I think, from, say the month of April or May to September. That has been the case for generations.

7817. Ling is your staple fish here, upon which the success of the fishing depends?-Yes; altogether.

7818. Would it not be worth while to prosecute the fishing in winter for the purpose of taking cod and haddock and other fish?-I don't think it.

7819. Would it not pay without the ling?-No; the other fish would not be got in sufficient quantities.

7820. Would they not be got in the same quantities, as on the east coast of Scotland?-No. The ground here for one thing is not so extensive. On the east coast of Scotland, you can have a range of perhaps, ten or twenty or thirty miles from every port, which you have not got here.

7821. How have you not got that range here?-The island is not so big altogether; and there are only certain tracks of ground that the men can fish on.

7822. It is on certain banks only that the fish caught?-Yes.

7823. And the banks here are not so extensive as on the east coast?-They are not.

7824. Has any attempt ever been made to introduce a more extensive winter fishing?-I don't think there is a more active class of men anywhere than there is to the westward here. They have small holdings, but they are constantly prepared to go off to sea when the weather offers, and they do prosecute the fishing often.

7825. Have you anything further to state?-With regard to the debts of the men, I may say that in 1864 I gave them to understand that unless those who were in debt reduced their balances in the former year, I could not help them again with their rent; and, except in exceptional cases, I have invariably acted upon that rule since.

7826. You mean that when they came to you at rent time for a cash payment in order to help them to pay their rents, you could not help them with that unless their former balance was reduced?- Quite so.

7827. You mentioned in a former part of your examination that a certain amount of cash had been paid at last settlement?-Yes.

7828. That would be in November?-Yes; in November and December.

7829. Did the whole of that pass to the fishermen, or was any rent included in it?-That was what I paid to the people when I was settling. There might be others besides fishermen, but I did not distinguish between them.

7830. Do any of the rents of the Busta estate pass through your hands?-No.

7831. But the rents to be paid to the factor would probably, where due by fishermen, be paid out of these payments by you?-I think so; but not necessarily in every case.

7832. Have you any arrangement with the factor about the rents of your fishermen?-None at all.

7833. That is quite an independent concern?-Quite.

7834. I think you have prepared some statement with regard to the amount of debts due by your fishermen during the last four or five years?-Yes. I have prepared the following statement, showing the number of men in debt, the total amount of their debts, and the average amount due by each, taking it as a whole:- No. of Men Total Year. in debt. amount of Average. debt. 1868 74 £1044 £14, 2s. 1869 79 1017 13 1870 72 942 13 1871 64 782 12, 4s.

7835. That shows that eight men had wiped off their debt altogether between 1870 and 1871?-Yes. That will prove, I think, that they are not quite so black as they have been painted. They are improving a little. The largest balance was £49, 14s. 21/2d. in 1868, which was reduced to £41, 9s. 9d. in 1871.

7836. The amount of indebtedness at Ollaberry is not included in these figures?-No. The figures I have now given apply only to the Hillswick men, who number about 125.* Four of the indebted men have left since, and are not clear of debt. That would reduce the amount by about £50 in all of the years except the first.

* In a note subsequently received from Mr. Anderson, he says: 'I find, in going over my books, that instead of 125 men, as I believed fished for me last year, I have actually 147. These I find are made up by fee'd men, and several crews who cured and dried their own fish, and from whom I purchased their fish so dried at the end of the season.

[Page 191]

Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR SANDISON, examined.

7837. You are a shopman and bookkeeper in Mr. Anderson's establishment at Hillswick?-I am.

7838. You are in the course of making up, at my request, a return from ledger D and ledger V, which are books containing the ledger accounts of the individual fishermen employed at Hillswick?- Yes.

7839. Do both these books contain the accounts of the individual men?-Yes. Ledger D contains the accounts both of the crews and private accounts of the men; and ledger V contains some private accounts.

7840. In proceeding to make up the list, you are taking the names of the last fifty fishermen as they appear in the ledger, and you are inserting in the return the various particulars which have been furnished to you?-Yes.

7841. The return which you are preparing, and which you are to send me, will be correctly taken from Mr. Anderson's books?- Yes, so far as I am able to do it.

7842. Is there any other person here who wishes to be examined? (No answer.) Then I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.

.

Brae: Saturday, January 13, 1872. -Mr. Guthrie

MAGNUS JOHNSTON, examined.

7843. You keep a shop at Tofts, about a mile from Mossbank?- Yes; I think it is rather more than a mile from Mossbank.

7844. What do you deal in?-Tea, tobacco, sugar and I buy fish too.

7845. Do you cure them yourself?-Yes.

7846. How many boats have you fishing for you?-I have no boats of my own; I just buy a little fish in the winter time, and I cure the men's fish in Feideland in summer. I cure at the fishing-station for Andrew Tulloch, who was examined the other day.

7847. From what fishermen do you buy your fish?-I buy them from any man who comes along, and wants to sell fish to me.

7848. Is that in the winter time only, or in the summer as well?- In the winter only. I am a seaman myself, and I have followed the sea since I was a child, but I stayed at home this year; and in the summer season I cured Tulloch's fish, while the wife and the bairns and I have commenced to sell a little tea and sugar and tobacco, and to buy fish from the small fishing boats in winter.

7849. Is that the way which people hereabout usually take to start a shop business?-I think it is.

7850. Do you keep accounts with the men that you buy the fish from?-No.

7851. Do you pay for them in cash?-Yes; always in cash.

7852. And then they buy some provisions from you?-Yes; if they like.

7853. Are these paid for in cash too?-Yes.

7854. I suppose you find it very uphill work competing with the big shops?-I don't know. I am a kind of rough and ready sailor man, and I don't take much thought about that; it does not give me much concern.

7855. Do the men prefer to deal with the big shops in it general way?-I cannot say as to that.

7856. Do you drive a good business with any of the men besides those who sell their fish to you?-No; some of the neighbours may buy a few provisions from us, but not many. A woman may sell her eggs to us, and get provisions for them.

7857. Where do you get your tea?-From Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen.

7858. Do they send their traveller round the country soliciting orders?-Sometimes. He has not been round this winter, and I get my tea when I write for it.

7859. Do you keep pass-books for the business which you do with your customers?-Sometimes, but not many. I think my girl keeps a pass-book sometimes, but I am no scribe myself, and I cannot keep books.

7860. You never were a fisherman?-Not in the home fishing, but I have been at the Faroe fishing as master.

7861. When was that?-About four or five years ago.

7862. Whose vessel were you in?-The late Mr. Hoseason's. I have not been at Faroe since then.

7863. You went from Mossbank then?-Yes; I was one year in a schooner for Mr. Adie too.

7864. Had you the same arrangement then about the fish which exists now, that the men get one-half of the fish, for which they are paid the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

7865. Did you at that time live where you are now?-Yes; and when I went to the Faroe fishing. Some time after I got married I lived in Northmaven, but now for nine years past at Martinmas I have lived at Tofts.

7866. When you went to the Faroe fishing, did you get your supplies from Pole, Hoseason, & Company, when you were employed by them?-No; I generally took my supplies in tea and sugar and other things from Braidwood & Fowler, Sandport Street, Leith. We are friendly yet, and they always send me some present at Christmas.

7867. Then you are rather better off than most of the men?-Yes; in some ways I am.

7868. At least you had sense to get your provisions where you pleased?-Yes; and I had something left by my friends, besides what I earned myself. When I was at the Faroe fishing, I did not think they got fair-play.

7869. Who did not get fair-play?-Not even myself, or any of the men. I knew the fish had been selling at a higher rate than the men got the benefit of; at least I was told so.

7870. Do you think the men were not to blame for that, by making a bargain which left them entirely at the discretion of the merchant? The merchant could fix any price he liked, could he not?-He could. But if I get the loan of a man's boat with which to go to the fishing, and if I engage for one-half of the fish, then, I think, it would only be fair-play to divide the fish in halves, and for the merchant to take one-half, and give me the other.

7871. But you said the men sometimes felt that the price which they got for their fish at the end of the season was lower than it ought to have been, and I was asking you whether you did not think the men had themselves to blame for that. They did not reserve any power to themselves about fixing the price, but left it entirely to the merchants?-Yes.

7872. Then your idea is, that they would have been wiser to have kept some power about that in their own hands?-Yes.

7873. How could they manage that?-They engaged for one-half at the Faroe fishing, and the owners of the vessels ought to have sold the fish conscientiously, and to have given the men the benefit of their half, after taking off curing and other expenses.

7874. But you say the men thought the owners did not always fix the price conscientiously?-I thought so myself.

7875. How would you manage it so that the men could make sure of getting a fair price at the end of the season?-I would let the men stand the chance of the markets so far as the fixing of the price is concerned.

[Page 192]

7876. But is not that the bargain that is made now, that they get the market price at the end of the season?-I believe it is, but it was not so then.

7877. What was the difference in the arrangement then?-I cannot say. They engaged for one-half of the fish at that time, but I know that sometimes they did not get the benefit of the market price.

7878. Do you think they get the benefit of the market price now?-I cannot say, for I have not been at Faroe for five years.

7879. At that time did most of the men who were sailing with you run accounts with the merchant for their outfit and supplies?- Yes.

7880. Had they generally a balance to get in cash settling time?- Yes.

7881. Did you know any men who were behind, and had a balance against them at the end of the year?-I cannot say whether there were any in that position.

7882. You were not in that position yourself?-Never.

7883. What was the reason why the men generally dealt with the merchants who employed them at the fishing?-Perhaps the men did not have money at the time with which to go and buy the articles from any other party, and the man who owned the vessel ready to supply them. That was the way in which it was done, so far as I know.

7884. I suppose some of them had been supplied with goods before they went away to the fishing?-I think so.

7885. And it was a common enough thing for an account to be standing against them when they settled?-I believe it was.

7886. Do you think any of them would have engaged with another merchant in preference for the fishing if they had not had that account?-I cannot say as to that.

7887. Was there any obligation on them to engage with the merchant who supplied them with their goods?-Not so far as I know.

7888. Except that they thought it fair to go and fish for him in order that he might have some security for his advances?-Of course.

7889. How long is it since you opened your shop?-About twenty-one or twenty-two months.

7890. On whose land is it?-The proprietor, Mr. Robert Hoseason, is in New Zealand.

7891. Is it under the management of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-No. Mr. Sievwright, writer in Lerwick, is the agent. Mr. John White and Mr. Cheyne, Edinburgh, are the agents, and they have Mr. Sievwright under them.

7892. Had you any difficulty in getting a place in which to open your business?-No; I had been living there before.

7893. But was any objection made to your opening the shop?-No; there could be none, because I have a lease of the place.

7894. For what length of time is your lease?-For ten years.

7895. Do you know whether there is a difficulty in getting premises for shops in other parts of the district?-I cannot say, because I never tried.

7896. What is the price of your meal just now?-The fact is, we have none.

7897. Do you not sell meal?-Yes, I sell it. My meal is 16d. a peck all through the year.

7898. Is that higher or lower than the price at the Mossbank shop?-I think it is 1d. below it.

7899. Is your meal of the same quality as the meal there?-I think so. I get my meal from Aberdeen.

7900. Is it better than the meal sold at Mossbank?-I could not say that.

7901. Do you get it from Bremner & Grant?-Yes, and sometimes I get it from Tulloch. I generally get it by the sack or boll; and if any person takes a sack or boll from me, I give it at what it cost me, adding something for freight.

7902. You sell it at 16d. per peck; how much is that per boll?- There are about 17 pecks to the boll, but you will not get a boll to weigh out 17 pecks. There should be 171/2 in it, but weighing out pecks and half pecks the boll will not weigh out so much as 17.

7903. Are most of the people about Mossbank employed by Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at the fishing?-Yes most of them.

7904. Is there anybody there who fishes for one else?-James Hay fishes for Mr. Adie, Voe. That is all I know.

7905. Does he go to Voe to fish?-No; he fishes at Feideland Station.

7906. With that exception, will all the people within two or three miles of Mossbank be fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; I think most of them.

7907. Or within five miles?-I could not say for five miles; but I think most of them will.

7908. Do most of them deal at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop?-I believe they do.

7909. Very few of them come to you?-Occasionally they do, but not to any great extent.

7910. Do you think you would have a greater number of customers if you were employing boats yourself for the fishing?- I cannot say; perhaps I might.

7911. Have you not thought of turning your attention that way?- Not as yet.

7912. How is it that the men are at liberty to sell fish to you if they are engaged to Pole, Hoseason & Co.?-They are engaged in the summer time with the large boats, because the large boats belong to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; but the small boats which they use in the winter time belong to the men themselves, and it is more convenient for the men living in the neighbourhood of my house to sell their fish to me than to Pole, Hoseason, & Co. It would be better for them to sell their fish to me 6d. per cwt. cheaper than to go to Mossbank with them. The boats are their own, and the men are not in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and therefore they can do with these fish as they please.

7913. Do you also buy fish from men who are in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I don't know whether they are in debt to them or not. I take fish from every one who brings them to me.

7914. Do you buy many fish during the winter season in that way?-Not a large quantity. Perhaps. I might have about 11/2 or 2 tons of dry fish in the spring; that would be about the amount of it.

7915. Are these worth about £20 a ton?-No; I got £17, 10s. last year for them.

7916. Then these fish don't sell so well as the summer cured fish?-No; some of them are very small.

7917. Do the men about you not think it would be more profitable for themselves to cure their own fish?-They could not manage it, because they have no cellars or stores in which to keep salt, or convenient beaches on which to dry the fish.

7918. Did not the men formerly cure their own fish in Shetland to some extent?-I don't know.

7919. Don't they try to do it still?-Some of them do it still in Shetland; but in the winter time they must have a booth for the purpose of salting their fish and keeping them.

7920. Do you sell soft goods in your shop as well as provisions?- No. We sometimes had a bit of white cotton last year for making oil cloths, or the like of that, but we have none now.

7921. Do you think the men about you are not able to purchase from you so much as they would otherwise do from want of having money in their pockets?-That is a thing I cannot say anything about, because I never know what any man has in his pocket. We never talk about that. I might have my ideas on the subject, but I could not speak positively about it.

7922. It is your ideas I want to know, and what, you feel in your own experience. What is your opinion on the subject?-I believe it might be better, for the men if they were allowed to buy or not as they thought proper.

7923. But do you think the extent of your dealings, is less than it would be if the men had ready money payments?-I could not say for that.

[Page 193]

7924. Supposing you provided as good an article as Pole, Hoseason, & Co., would the men come to you in greater numbers if they were paid in cash shorter periods?-I could not say. They just come to as their own minds lead them, but I believe they would still go to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, even although they had money.

7925. But don't you think they are prevented from coming to you by their want of money?-They may be in some cases.

7926. You say you have your own ideas about that: what are they?-I believe it might be the idea of man that he might get a better article if he could come to me for it, or go to Pole Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, just as he liked.

7927. But suppose a man does want to come to you, and I suppose some of your friends would be very glad to deal with you, do you know that they are sometimes in want of money, and thus prevented from coming?-I don't know.

7928. Do the men not prefer to go to a place where they can get what they want on credit?-I don't know about that either.

7929. Have you never been told that?-No.

7930. Have you never suspected it?-No. I think they just go where they please themselves. Perhaps they might get a better bargain from another man than from me, and yet they might come to me or go past me.

7931. Are you quite content with the system of long settlements which goes on at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s, and that the men should run accounts there?-No, I am not satisfied with that. I think it would be better for the people to have no accounts at all.

7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?- Yes.

7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part, if I had no money, but if I might go to a shop and take out more goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to whether I would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did not have that liberty, but went into a shop with few pence in his pocket, he might make it spin out better, or more to his own advantage.

7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more.

7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving long credit in that way, would require little more profit on your goods?-Of course.

7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general if all payments were made in cash.

7937. Do you employ some men in your curing business?-No; I just do it with my own family. Sometimes I get a little boy to help me for a while, but that is all.

7938. When you were employed in the Faroe fishing, did you get cash from the merchant in the course of season, when you happened to come home, whenever you wanted it?-Yes.

7939. Could your wife get cash?-She did not require it, and she did not ask it.

7940. Is there any sort of feeling that people don't like to ask for cash before the settlement?-That might have been the case with some, but it was not with me, because I did not need the cash until it was due.

7941. Then generally you did not ask for it until it was due?-No.

7942. Do you think there is much money among the people in your neighbourhood during the summer time?-I don't think there is much.

7943. Is it generally spent soon after settling time?-Yes.

7944. Do you find that your cash transactions are greater at one season of the year than at another?-I cannot say that. I have only been one year in business, and I have not made any calculation about that.

Brae, January 13, 1872, ARTHUR THOMAS JAMIESON, examined.

7945. You are the son of Jacob Jamieson, residing at Brae?-Yes.

7946. You were employed by me on Wednesday last to go to Mossbank, and to purchase some articles from the shop of Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., there?-Yes.

7947. You went there and purchased these articles without saying who they were for?-Yes:

7948. You have brought to me half a pound of sugar, for which you paid 3d.?-Yes.

7949. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.

7950. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 7d.?-Yes.

7951. And 4 lbs. of oatmeal for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.

7952. You have now delivered these articles over to the clerk?-I have.

7953. Were these all the articles you purchased?-Yes.

7954. Are they exactly in the same state now as when you bought them?-Yes.

7955. They are contained in the same parcels as when they were put up in the shop?-Yes.

7956. Have you any reason to believe that the prices which you paid for the articles are different from those which are charged for the same qualities of articles at other times in that shop?-There is no difference, so far as I know.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.

7957. Have you a shop?-Yes; a small one.

7958. Where?-At Brough, in North Delting, about two miles from Mossbank.

7959. What do you deal in?-Groceries; nothing else.

7960. On whose land is your shop?-Mr. Gifford's of Busta.

7961. How long have you had it?-The shop has been going on for about ten years.

7962. Were you at any time forbidden, either verbally or by your lease, to have a shop on that ground?-No; I was told to go on.

7963. Was there a shop there before you went?-Yes; they always used to keep some small articles there for sale.

7964. Do your customers generally pay you in ready money?- Yes; I deal all in ready money; and I buy fish for cash. I am a fisherman myself, and I buy few fish from others as I have a chance, paying money for them, and my family cure them.

7965. Is it the summer fishing you go to?-I am at home all the year round at the sea-side, and I fish there, but they are generally small fish I take.

7966. You don't go to the haaf?-No.

7967. Have you a boat's crew?-No. My father and a boy go along with me.

7968. Are you able to cure both your own fish and the fish which you buy from other men?-Yes.

7969. What quantity do you buy from other men?-It varies in different years. When there are plenty of small cod in the Sound, I may have 11/2 ton during the season, while in other seasons I may have only the half of that.

7970. Is it only the small fish you buy?-If bigger fish were offered to me I would buy them, but there are no bigger fish caught along the shores.

7971. Do you not buy fish in the summer time?-Yes.

7972. Do you buy fish brought in by the large boats at that time?- No; the men take them to the stations.

7973. Do they not bring any of the big fish to Mossbank in the summer?-No; they are sold at the stations.

[Page 194]

7974. Do you never go there to buy fish?-No; I am content with the home fishing.

7975. Are the men bound to sell the small fish they get in the winter to any particular merchant?-They sell these fish to any one they like. There is no restriction upon them for that. Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. never say anything about it.

7976. Do you run any accounts in your shop?-Scarcely any. There may be 1s. or an ounce of tobacco or any small thing of that kind, marked down.

7977. Are you often asked to give credit for a short time?-Very often.

7978. The men are not always in possession of ready money?- No; they are very often out of money.

7979. At what period of the year are they best off for money?- About our place in the winter time if it is good, and if they are catching a few cod, that is just about as good a time for them as any.

7980. Do they not also have a good deal of cash after settling time?-After settling time they have always a little.

7981. Is your trade better at that time than at other periods of the year?-When it is good weather, and anything doing at the fishing, or when the men have come from Feideland with the money which they had got at settlement, they trade more at my shop, as a rule, than at other times.

7982. Is June and July a good time for your shop?-Not very good; because most of the men are away at the fishing. There may be two or three boats manned by old men at home; but, with the exception of what they bring in from the Sound, I have nothing else to depend upon.

7983. Are not the men's wives and families at home, and requiring provisions?-Yes; and I may have the chance of a few dozen eggs, or any produce of that sort.

7984. That is for buying, but I mean for selling: is June and July a good season for the selling of your goods?-No; it is the worst time of the year for me.

7985. Why is that?-Because the men are all away at the fishing.

7986. But their wives are left, and they require something to keep them alive?-They are always working in what is called the kelp, and they go to Mr. Pole with that, so that I have no chance of buying it. I might have a chance of it, but I don't think it would pay me, as I don't know anything about it.

7987. Don't you think that if you had the chance of buying as much kelp as you liked in the summer time you might drive a better trade at your shop?-I might do a little better; but Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have the shores contracted for, so that they must get the kelp. They pay so much to Mr. Gifford for the shores, and in return for that they are entitled to the kelp, and they must have it.

7988. Do they pay in ready money for the kelp?-They make no scruple to give ready money for it, if a somewhat lower price is taken.

7989. But the people generally take goods for it?-Yes; they generally take the price in goods, or if they ask money, they will receive 6d. less per cwt., which I think is not unfair.

7990. If it was paid in ready money, I suppose you would have a chance of getting some of the custom of these kelp-gatherers?- Yes; if every man had his freedom to go where he liked, I would have a chance.

7991. Then I suppose the reason why sales are larger in winter and less in summer is, that the people have not ready money to go to your shop for the goods they want?-No; the men are all at the ling fishing in the summer time and all the chance I have is in the winter time, when they are at home fishing in the small boats.

7992. But even although they were at home in summer, they would not have ready money with which to come to you?-No. A man might not have ready money continually, unless he was paid every day for his catch.

7993. Would it not be better for your business if the men were paid every day or every week for their fish?-I don't think it would be any better for me unless I was out at the fishing station.

7994. But their families would have the money, and they might come to you with it?-They might.

7995. The men don't take their wives and children to the fishing station?-No.

7996. But I suppose the wives and children have very little money when the men are away at the stations?-Very little.

7997. Is that the reason why they get their supplies from the merchant's shop?-Yes.

7998. Only if they had the money they might go with it to another dealer, from whom they might get their articles cheaper?-They might.

7999. Do you sell your meal any cheaper than it is sold at the Mossbank shop?-No. I don't see that I can sell it any cheaper than Mr. Pole can.

8000. What is the price of your meal just now?-I deal very little in that. I only sell a few groceries-such as tea, tobacco, sugar, soap, soda, spice, pepper, and things of that kind. I might also have a sack or two of meal about the beginning of August, when it is most required.

8001. Where do you buy your meal?-For the most part in Lerwick, but I send south for a little of it.

8002. Do you think it would be better for the people in the country if a ready money system were introduced?-I think so. I think it would be better for the big merchants also to pay in money. I have had that idea all along, that it would be better both for the merchants and the people to pay in cash.

8003. Why would it be better for the people?-Because they would have the cash to please themselves with, and to go where they liked.

8004. If they could please themselves, do you think they might be able to buy cheaper?-Yes.

8005. If you were getting a large ready-money business, do you think you could sell cheaper than you do now?-I cannot say.

8006. But if a ready-money system were introduced you would try to do that?-Yes, I would and I think I would be able to do so, because the money is in hands and out of hands and there are no bad debts.

Brae, January 13, 1872, Rev. JAMES FRASER, examined.

8007. You have been a clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four years?-I have.

8008. You have an intimate acquaintance with the people who live about you, and, among others, with the fishermen?-Yes.

8009. You also know the system of payment and of credit purchases which exists in the district?-I do.

8010. Are you prepared to give any opinion as to the effect of that system upon the circumstances and character of the people?- Yes, I think the effect of it, to some extent, is not very good. It is rather an extensive subject to embrace within one answer, because there are a considerable number of people who are free and independent; they can make their own terms; but there are a great number of people who act on the credit system. That system has gone on, I daresay, from time immemorial, and it has become a great evil in the community, fraught with consequences of different descriptions that are evil.

8011. Are there many of the people whom you would describe as not being free to make their own bargains?-Of course there is hardly any person free to make his own bargain who has no ready money, and who is always in debt; and however well they may be dealt with by the fish-curers,-and I don't know of any case of wrong dealing in that respect-still the people are placed at a disadvantage. I believe the whole community are placed at a disadvantage in consequence of that, because, from the great amount of bad debts, the merchant must charge a higher percentage of profit upon his goods.

[Page 195]

8012. In saying that there is a great amount of bad debts, do you mean that there is a large proportion of debts in the merchants books which are never paid?-That is what I mean.

8013. Do you not mean that some of them are only very long delayed, and are liquidated only when a good fishing season comes?-Both statements are true. There are some of them which are very long delayed, and others which are delayed for ever, and never paid at all.

8014. You think that both these causes oblige the merchants to charge a higher price for goods than they otherwise would do?- Decidedly; but there is a greater evil than that still. Sometime in the course of Providence, an accident occurs, and families are left destitute, and the merchant has the disagreeable alternative of either losing his own debt, or putting the law in force and driving the families to extremity. That, however, is never done; but in such a case there might be an appeal to public benevolence in order to save human life, and that appeal is always responded to.

8015. What is the peculiarity in that case which you wish to point out?-The peculiarity in that case is, that I should wish the people to be placed in such circumstances that an appeal of that kind would not need to be made.

8016. Do you think such an appeal would be unnecessary if the credit system did not exist?-It would be unnecessary to a certain extent; but, at the same time, I can hardly see how to get rid of the credit system. I believe the merchants themselves feel it to be a much more trying thing, or at least fully as trying a thing, as I do. I look at it from one point of view, and they suffer from it from another.

8017. Is it within your own knowledge that a large portion of the people here are in a state of permanent indebtedness to the merchants?-I don't know to what extent they may be in a state of permanent indebtedness. I believe that a great number of them are very seldom clear, but of course there is a large proportion of the community who are clear from year to year.

8018. Do you mean that there is a large proportion of the men who are clear once in a year?-There are a great number who are always clear. There are number of the people who have never been in debt, and I believe never will be.

8019. But you are speaking of those who are in debt: what may be the proportion who are in that position?-I could not give an accurate answer as to the extent to which a state of permanent indebtedness prevails; but I know that it prevails to a much larger extent than is good for the community.

8020. Do you think it prevails to a larger extent here than in other districts of the country?-I don't think so.

8021. I meant than in other parts of Scotland, not of Shetland?-I am not very well acquainted with the extent to which a credit system prevails in Scotland.

8022. But you think it prevails to such an extent here as to be injurious to the independence of the people?-I think so; at least to the independence of some of the people.

8023. Do you think it tends to injure their truthfulness?-I don't know to what extent it will do that; but I think that, to some extent, when a man gets into arrears beyond what he is able to meet, he is apt to lose heart, and to come short of what he might otherwise do to clear himself.

8024. Have you known cases of that description?-I don't know to what extent cases of that description may prevail, but I know that there are a good many people who are living this year on their next year's earnings, and perhaps on the earnings of a year or two in advance of that.

8025. These are cases within your own knowledge, in which you have derived your information from the parties you speak of?- Yes.

8026. They have admitted it to you?-Yes, in one way or another. I have gained some of my knowledge from the merchants themselves, and some from the people.

8027. I suppose that sometimes, in the course of your ministrations, you have occasion to inquire a little into the circumstances of the men?-Yes, sometimes.

8028. In a letter which you wrote in reply to circular received from me, you gave an opinion about some proposed method of improvement which had for its object a separation between fishing and farming?-I have heard such a thing proposed. It has been discussed in the public press.

8029. Do you think the fishing could be carried on here apart from farming?-I do not. I think the fishermen could not live without their farms.

8030. Are they in a different position from the fishermen on the east coast of Scotland, in Aberdeenshire or Banffshire, who have no farms, and who live very comfortably, as I understand, by fishing alone?-I think they are in a very different position from these fishermen. One reason for that is, that there are frequent seasons occurring when there are no fish on the Shetland coast. Another reason is, that Shetland is very far from the market; and even although fish could be got, they could not be brought to market at a season when an adequate return could be got for them.

8031. But the curing might proceed in winter as it does in summer?-It might, but the fishermen would not be able, as a rule to keep themselves alive in winter by fishing alone.

8032. Do you mean that they would be much more interrupted by the weather in winter than in summer?-They would be much more interrupted by the weather, and they would have less chance of fish.

8033. Are you aware whether winter fishing has been tried in Shetland on a large scale?-Yes; not on a large scale, but it has been tried pretty extensively. I know that from my own experience. I tried it myself from the time when I could handle a boat oar, until I was twenty-seven years of age. During that time I was at the fishing every day, summer and winter, when it was fishing weather, and living in the midst of the ocean; and I have no hesitation in saying that if fishermen had been dependent on fishing alone, they would have died from sheer want, leaving their families out of the question altogether.

8034. But at that time were there any appliances for sending out large boats such as are now sent out in summer, and for curing the fish when brought home?-Yes, there were appliances for curing the fish when brought home; and little boats are much more handy about the Shetland coast than large boats at that season of the year.

8035. Do you think, as regards the hosiery trade, that it would be expedient for cash to be paid instead of goods as at present?- Sometimes it would be a convenience to the people to get cash, but generally speaking, I believe it would make very little difference. For instance, if a woman goes into a merchant's shop with so much hosiery, and she wants so much goods which the merchant can supply, she may just as well get them from him as from anybody else.

8036. But supposing the woman did not want goods?-Supposing she wants money, it would certainly be more convenient for her to get the money.

8037. Is it the case, so far as you know, that the people are often in want of money, and cannot get it?-I have not been aware of any particular case in which a little money was wanted and could not be got; but, as a general rule, money has never been paid for hosiery in Shetland.

8038. Are you of opinion that cases of hardship are not likely to occur in consequence of the want of money?-I could not give a positive answer to that question. I have heard the women complain more of there being two prices than of any difficulty in getting money.

8039. The two prices you refer to are the cash price and the price in goods?-Yes.

8040. What is their complaint with regard to that?-They think hosiery is sold at a disadvantage, when goods are so much dearer because bought with hosiery. That is the principal cause of complaint that I have heard of.

8041. Is it understood that the goods are dearer, because they are bought with hosiery?-That is generally [Page 196] understood; at least in some places. There are some merchants who make it all one price together; the same when hosiery is paid for the goods as when they are paid for in cash.

8042. Is that not the case with all?-It is not universally the case,

8043. Therefore there are not only two prices for hosiery, but there are two prices for goods bought with hosiery?-Yes; in some places there are.

8044. Are you aware of that from your, own knowledge, or is it merely from a complaint among the women?-It is a complaint among the women, and I think there is justice in it.

8045. That is, if it exists?-Yes; and I think it does exist in some places.

8046. Are you aware from your own knowledge that it does exist?-I think I am pretty certain of it.

8047. Do you think a system of credit payments and of paying for hosiery by goods has the effect of raising the prices of goods upon the whole community?-I don't think the hosiery has any effect of that description at all, so far as I know, but I think the credit system must have that effect in a greater or less degree. Under that system I think the credit which is most hopelessly given is in meal. The fish-curer often finds himself in the greatest difficulty with a family who are perhaps in want, and have no means to purchase meal. In that case he is frequently obliged, out of compassion, to give out meal for which he hardly expects to receive anything; or if he does, it is a long time before it comes.

8048. In such a case is the fisherman not under a sort of obligation to fish for that merchant during the next year, and until his debt is liquidated?-I think he is under such an obligation, but in some cases it takes a long fishing before the debt is liquidated.

8049. Do you think it is wholesome for a man to be under such a permanent obligation to fish for the same party?-I don't think it is wholesome for either party. But there is no help for it.

8050. Does that produce a spirit of submission and dependence on the part of the fishermen towards the merchant?-I don't know, but to some extent it must.

8051. Have you known any case in which that became very evident?-I cannot say. I could not name any particular case.

8052. You have not been struck by that in the course of your experience?-No. I have a considerable amount of acquaintance both here and in the north part of the islands of Shetland, and I cannot say that I have been struck with any such spirit of dependence. In the nature of things, however, it must exist more or less. But, in my opinion, the better way to get rid of it would be for the people to grow their own meal, and require less of it to be supplied to them.

8053. Do you mean that it would be an advantage if they required to purchase less meal than they do now?-Yes. I cannot see how the system can be got rid of, unless the people are able to cultivate their land, and grow their own meal.

8054. Therefore you are inclined to recommend a system of agricultural improvement as the best thing for Shetland?-Yes.

8055. Could that be effected without a separation between the fishing and the farming?-I think so. I think if people were placed in such security that they knew they were working for themselves, so that they could spend every day or every hour that they had leisure in improving their small crofts of land, they might grow half as much again as they do at present.

8056. Even upon their small holdings?-Yes; upon the greater number of their small holdings.

8057. And with spade labour?-Yes, with the spade, and the pick and shovel, such as the men can manage for themselves.

8058. Is not that a very antiquated way of cultivating the ground?-It may be antiquated, but I don't think there is any better way coming into operation.

8059. Is there not ploughing?-Ploughing won't because, if the ground of which these small crofts is composed is not broken up with the pick, it is of very little consequence to plough it. I could show examples of that in different parts of Shetland. Land ploughed is not half the value of land trenched, and the fisherman might trench a bit of land during winter for himself, and in the course of a few years grow all that he required, or the next thing to it, without costing the proprietor or anybody else anything.

8060. Would he grow a much heavier crop on land cultivated in that way with the spade, than a large farmer would if he ploughed his fields?-Yes, a much larger crop than a large farmer would if he ploughed that same field. I have not the slightest doubt of that.

8061. Are you speaking now from your own observation of both systems in Shetland?-I am.

8062. Do you know cases where an intelligent and active small crofter, cultivating in the way you have described with the spade, has grown heavier crops than a farmer, equally active and equally intelligent, has grown with plough cultivation?-Yes, upon the same kind of ground.

8063. Was that in this neighbourhood?-Yes.

8064. And the circumstances in both cases being exactly the same, except the difference between spade and plough cultivation?-I think the difference in that case would certainly be in favour of the larger cultivator; because I think the agricultural intelligence should be in favour of a man who works with the plough.

8065. You think the intelligence was perhaps superior in that case?-I think it was superior, and the crop inferior.

8066. Is that a thing which you have frequently observed?-Not very frequently, because land is not very frequently cultivated in the way I have mentioned, as the parties cultivating it, or who should cultivate it, don't have any security. They don't know who they are working for. There is a man pretty near me (Mr Gifford knows him), who has been cultivating in the way I have mentioned, and there is another man pretty near here who is cultivating in the way that you speak of, and there is no comparison whatever between the crops.

8067. Then is the remedy you suggest, a system of lease-holding?-Yes.

8068. Is there any reason why that does not exist in Shetland already?-I don't know any particular reason for it.

8069. Have the tenants in many places not been offered leases?-In some cases they have been offered leases, and I believe they have refused them, but I don't know for what reason.

8070. Have you any observation to make upon the subject of fixing the price of the fishermen's catch at the end of the season?-I have no observation to make on that subject, for I am not able to see how far it would be to the advantage of the fisherman to fix the price beforehand. I don't think it would be an advantage to him; indeed, I think the fisherman would be greater loser by a fixed price than he is just now.

8071. Is that because he would still have to obtain his supplies on credit?-Not so much that; but for one thing, the merchant's or fish-curer's knowledge of what the market is likely to be, is ahead of that of the fisherman; and I think it holds good more or less, by common sense, that the merchant should try to secure safety for himself in the bargain which he makes. The probability therefore is, that the fisherman would suffer more in that case than he does at present.

8072. You think the merchant has better means of foreseeing the course of the markets than the fishermen?-I think so; and although I believe the merchants hereabouts would generally give the men all the advantage they could, I cannot see how it would be possible that by fixing the price beforehand the fisherman would be the gainer.

8073. Is there any reason to suppose that the fishermen have not a sufficient voice in fixing what the current price is to be at the end of the season?-I don't think the fishermen have any voice in that at all, and I don't know how far the merchant or fish-curer [Page 197] has either. It must be regulated by the south-country markets.

8074. Would it be any advantage to the fishermen in your neighbourhood to have periodical payments up to a certain amount of their catch, leaving the balance to be fixed, and the price also, or a portion of it to be fixed at the end of the season?-I don't think that would be any advantage, and there is one disadvantage which would certainly follow such a system. There are some men who will take care of their money, pay it to them when you like; but those who take least care of it would spend it as they got it, and the merchants having paid ready money to them, there would be nobody who would advance anything to them when they wished to pay their land-rent or other debts.

8075. Are these careless men not equally apt, under the present system, to take too much in goods, and to exhaust their earnings too early?-Perhaps they are, but there is some check upon them under the present system, whereas if they got the money in their own hands there would be none.

8076. What is the check upon them?-The merchant himself will be a check, if a man is running an account which he is not likely to meet. I am not able to say how far the system you have suggested would be an advantage to the people. It might be an advantage, but I cannot see it.*

* The following letter was afterwards addressed to the Commissioner by Mr. Fraser:- SULLAM, 18 1872. W. GUTHRIE, Esq. SIR,-You will perhaps allow me to supplement the evidence gave at Brae the other day by a few notes. I did not bring out all I wished to say on the credit system. It would require more time than could than be allowed to one witness, and more writing than I would like to trouble you with now, to explain it fully.

Credit has become almost a necessity in Shetland in the present condition of the islands and it has gone on so long that the moral ton of society has suffered in consequence of it. The present fish-curers and merchants have not created the system; it existed before them, and they have taken it up as a necessary evil.

Shetland fisherman may be divided into three classes. The first class are free men. They have never been in debt, and hope never to be. The second class, under the present circumstances, come in debt, but they don't like it, and get out of it as soon as they can. The third class do not seem to have any particular dislike to it. When the Commissioner asked me at Brae if I had known men lose their independence by coming in debt, or something like that, I had this class in my mind, and I was puzzled what to say. I think the loss must have been sustained long, long ago, for they have always appeared to me as a party who never had anything of the sort to lose.

The moral evils of the system to this class need not be mentioned. I will name one or two of its physical effects.

1. It largely increases pauperism, by raising a false standard by which to regulate one's expenditure. When one of this class falls from earning, he is fit only for the Parochial Board.

2. In case of a boat accident, or in a season like 1869, the prospect is most appalling. In that year the crop was very largely a failure; many of the people had gone as deep in debt as they could go; and but for the aid sent by the Society of Friends, some of the people would assuredly have died, and a still larger number could not have sown their ground. The timely aid sent by the Friends and those whom they enlisted with them in their benevolent work, prevented both these consequences.

There are not a few families in Shetland-bereaved families, I mean-supported by funds supplied by the benevolence of south country ladies and gentlemen, who otherwise must have starved, or fall with a crushing weight upon the Parochial Boards.

Now, for all this, so far as I know, there is only one remedy- the improvement of the soil. The people are cultivating just the same ground their did, and most of the ground now cultivated has never rested in the memory of living man, or perhaps as long before. New earth is made to supply the yearly waste, and thus the ground in the neighbourhood of a few small farms is so robbed as to be rendered useless for generations, unless it happens to have earth enough to allow of laying down the surface, and a proprietor or factor who binds the people to do it.

There is, in general, plenty of unreclaimed land lying close by these small farms which might be broken up and brought under crop, and some of the old allowed to rest. In some places there are plenty of stones to hedge in a small croft of land where grass might be sown, but nothing is done. That unreclaimed land is made to do duty by keeping life in a few cows-two, or more. During the summer season, the merchant supplies the meal as long as he can, and so things continue its they are. No man who may receive a forty days', or even a six months', warning, is likely to exert himself to bring more ground under crop. The thing wanted is leasehold of the property by the tenant. But I am told the tenants will not take a lease. It may be so; but before the statement be admitted as true, the sort of lease offered them would require to be seen. There are leases offered which no man of common sense would take. There is property in Shetland, and plenty of it, that in a 19 years lease could be made 50 per cent. better than it is, and be a better bargain then, than now. And all this might be done without costing the proprietor one shilling. Let him give it lease on reasonable terms.

There is just one thing more I would like to state. I am referring to the evidence given last year before the Commissioner in Edinburgh, it was then stated by Mr. Walker, that the hills were doing the people no good, and therefore he had taken them from them. The latter part of this statement is true, but on the former part of it I would beg to say, the native sheep reared on these hills supply material for knitting, and the female part of the population are clad almost entirely from that source alone. Then the female members of the house generally provide during the winter months warm underclothing for the fisherman, without which he could not pursue his hazardous occupation. Bedclothes are also largely supplied from the same source. Leave all these to be supplied by the fisherman from his scanty earnings, and it requires no prophet to foretell the result.

To say that the hills were doing the people no good, either manifests great ignorance of the subject, or something worse.-I am, Sir, your most obedient servant, James Fraser.

Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS GIFFORD, examined,

8077. You are the factor on the estate of Busta?-I am.

8078. I believe that is the largest estate in Shetland?-I believe it is.

8079. What is the rental?-£2700.

8080. Are there any leases on the estate?-Yes, there are a good many.

8081. Are these of the small holdings or of the large holdings only?-There are leases of both.

8082. Do the majority of the fishermen tenants have leases?-Not the majority.

8083. Or a considerable number?-I could hardly say there are a considerable number; only a small number, I think.

8084. I understand that the tenants on the Busta estate are entirely free to fish for any person with whom they may choose to engage?-Yes; and a great many of them go south and follow different employments,

8085. How many large mercantile establishments or shops are there on the Busta property which are held by fish-curers?-Four. There is one at Voe, one at Brae, one at Hillswick, and one at Lochend (Mr. Laurenson's).

8086. I presume these are all the large establishments of that kind in the district of Delting and Northmaven, except the shop at Mossbank?-No; Messrs. Hay & Company have one at North Roe, at the very farthest extremity of Northmaven, and then there are fishing stations at Stenness and Feideland.

8087. But at these stations the fishermen are all employed by one or other of the merchants whose places of business you have enumerated?-Yes.

8088. And all these merchants hold their shops under the Busta trustees?-Yes.

8089. Have they all leases?-Yes.

8090. Can you tell me from recollection what the rents of these shops are?-The shops are not separately rented; they are let along with farms in every case.

8091. The merchants are not tacksmen of any tenants, but they have farms?-Yes; merely their own farms.

8092. Is there any prohibition to sub-let on these farms?-Yes; in every case.

8093. What are the rents of these four parties?-£327 for the four.

8094. In the district from Busta extending to the march of the Gossaburgh property at North Roe, is the greater part of the land under your management?-Yes.

8095. The greater part of it belongs to the Busta estate?-Yes; three-fourths of it perhaps.

8096. Is there any understanding with the four merchants you have mentioned, that no other shops than theirs shall be opened upon your property?-No, a shop can be opened at any place.

8097. Have you objected in any case to the opening of shops, lest it should interfere with the business of these lessees?-I have not. There are several shops that have been opened lately.

8098. Were these small shops?-Yes; there was one you passed at the head of the voe going to Hillswick.

[Page 198]

8099. Is that Arthur Harrison's?-Yes; and there is one opposite it again, on the Roenessvoe side.

8100. Is there any apprehension on the part of the Busta trustees lest the rent paid by the larger establishments should be reduced by the opening of smaller shops?-None.

8101. Is it not the case that some difficulty was put in the way of Harrison opening his shop?-I believe something was said about it, but there was no reality in it.

8102. There was an objection made to it at first, was there not?- Yes; I believe there was some objection made, but there is nothing in the lease that could prevent it in any way.

8103. Nothing in what lease?-Nothing in Mr. Anderson's lease binding us to refuse, and nothing in any lease on the Busta property.

8104. Is there not an obligation in some of the leases of the tenants that no shops are to be opened on their holdings?-They are not allowed to open shops unless they ask permission. That is only to be done with the consent of the trustees.

8105. You say that Harrison was refused permission at first, but that shortly afterwards he was granted permission to open his shop?-I did not refuse him permission at first. Some other parties objected to him getting it, and said that no shops could be opened within a certain distance of Hillswick.

8106. Was it Mr. Anderson who objected?-Yes, I believe he did object.

8107. Was that by letter, or personally?-I don't think he objected to me by letter. He may have mentioned it to the trustees, or their agent, but his lease had been got some considerable time before Harrison thought of opening the shop, so that he knew he could not stop it.

8108. But he did object notwithstanding?-Yes; I think he objected at first when he was taking his lease. I think he wished it to be put in that way.

8109. The hesitation which existed about giving Harrison the lease, or the delay in agreeing to give him his lease, was due, I suppose, to Mr. Anderson's objection?-Harrison has got a lease.

8110. He has got it now, but it was refused, or at least delayed, when he first applied for it, was it not?-No; Harrison was only permitted to sell lately, but he had his lease before.

8111. But was not the permission to sell refused at first in consequence of Mr. Anderson objecting to it?-There was something said about it, but it was not practically refused.

8112. Had you had any communication with Mr. Adie before finally giving Harrison permission to sell?-None whatever.

8113. Neither verbally nor by letter?-Neither verbally nor by letter.

8114. Did you understand that Harrison was going to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes; I understood he was going to cure fish for Mr. Adie, or any other body he could get them to cure for.

8115. And he informed you that he had made a contract with Mr. Adie for curing fish at the time when you granted the permission?-I think he went from Busta to Lerwick, and spoke to Mr. Harrison and some other fish-curers, and I believe he expected to get some from Mr. Harrison, and some from Mr. Adie; but so far as I am aware, he has only got them from Mr. Adie. But he was quite open to take them from any party he could make the best bargain with.

8116. Had you any letter from Mr. Anderson objecting to Harrison opening a shop?-No, so far as I am aware.

8117. You think he only wrote to some of the other trustees?-I am not aware that he has written a letter about it since he got his lease. I think he objected to it about the time he took his lease.

8118. But not at the time when Harrison was wanting to sell?- No; I think at the time when Mr. Anderson took his lease he wished it mentioned that no other party should be allowed to sell within four miles of him, but that was not entered in the lease.

8119. Then do you mean that no objection was made by Mr. Anderson to Harrison being allowed to sell goods at the time when he (Harrison) was applying for that permission?-There is no doubt Mr. Anderson may have objected to him, or to any other party, doing so, but he could not do it in any way so as to affect Harrison.

8120. Was that because the power of granting or refusing permission lay entirely with you?-I suppose so.

8121. But, in point of fact, did Mr. Anderson make no objection to you or to any of the Busta trustees, so far as you know, to Harrison being allowed to sell?-I am not aware whether he made any application to the trustees, or their agent. I know that he mentioned the matter more than once but that is all I know.

8122. He said that he thought Harrison should not get permission?-Yes; that is all he did. I am not aware that he wrote to the trustees on the subject after he got his lease.

8123. But he mentioned it to you when you met him personally?- Yes; he mentioned it more than once.

8124. And that was about the time when Harrison was applying for leave to open his shop?-Yes.

8125. I presume there is no understanding between the Busta trustees and any of the merchants whose establishments are upon the estate that these merchants are responsible for the rents of the men?-There is no understanding of the kind. There is not a single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole 480 on it, or out of the 530 with whom I have to do that any of the merchants is liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be the case some time before but it has not been so for a long time.

8126. Do you know, in the course of your dealings with the tenants, whether there is any arrangement between the merchants you have named, or any of them, to the effect that when a man ceases to fish for one and has a debt due to him, the merchant who engages him must undertake that debt?-There is no such arrangement that I am aware of. Some years ago, I believe, that was done by some parties, but I don't think it is done by any of them now. I refer to the practice of a merchant when he engages men taking over the debt or part of the debt which they are due to their old employer.

8127. You don't know about that?-Yes, I know about it. I know that there was such an arrangement some years ago.

8128. I suppose if Mr. Anderson told you it not given up, you would be quite prepared to believe that that arrangement still exists?-I believe it was given up, because in most of the cases when a merchant took over a debt in that way, very little of the old debt was paid. I have known parties take over with debts of £15 and £20 standing against them, and these debts never were reduced.

8129. Had you any concern with that arrangement yourself?- None whatever. I merely heard of it.

8130. I believe most of the merchants or fish-curers are also dealers in cattle?-I believe they are, to some extent.

8131. They purchase them both privately and at the periodical sales which are held for each estate?-Yes.

8132. Would you describe shortly the nature of the sales that are held? They are held twice a-year, are they not?-Yes, twice a-year for the Busta and Ollaberry tenants, and they are sometimes held at North Roe for the Gossaburgh tenants. But there are always sales at Ollaberry and Mavisgrind, generally at the end of October, for the tenants cattle.

8133. What is the reason for having sales for these particular estates?-Merely to give the tenants the advantage of having their cattle sold. I am not aware any other reason than that. At the Busta sale cattle belonging to other parties are taken in, as well as cattle belonging to the tenants, although it is only for the benefit of the tenants on the estate that the sales are held.

8134. At these sales, are many of the cattle purchased [Page 199] by the merchants?-A good many. With reference to my former statement, that £327 is the rent of the four shops, I wish to explain that that is much short of what it should be. It is nearly £450 for the four; and my explanation of that is, that Mr. Adie has got a large park in connection with his premises, and Mr. Inkster and Mr. Anderson have the same at Brae and Hillswick, and they all require to buy extensively for their parks.

8135. Are you acquainted with the practice in this country of a creditor marking cattle, and holding them as a kind of security for debt?-Yes.

8136. Is that a common thing here?-I don't know if it is common; but I have known several cases where it has been done.

8137. I suppose that where a merchant does that it is not held to interfere with the landlord's hypothec or his rent?-No. The rents are generally paid before the merchants interfere in any way with the cattle.

8138. But when a merchant interferes with cattle in that way, or purchases them in at a sale, he buys them of course subject to the landlord's right?-If he buys them at a sale, he buys them direct off, and pays the money for them; but if he secures the animal privately, it generally remains with the party until it is taken away. In a transaction of that kind, the animal is priced, and it is removed at a convenient time for both parties. It does not come to a public sale at all.

8139. The animal, in that case, is retained by the tenant?-It is marked and priced and retained by the tenant, and taken over by the purchaser when he wants it.

8140. The cattle are priced the time they are pledged, or marked as it were?-I believe they are.

8141. Is that an arrangement between the merchant and the tenant?-Entirely.

8142. And they arrange the price between themselves, or does the merchant put the price on the cattle?-I think it is a mutual arrangement, because there is much competition for cattle, that the merchant must do that.

8143. Do you think there is any understanding between the merchants, that when a marked beast is exposed at any one of these periodical sales, the other merchants shall not bid against the merchant for whom the animal has been marked, but that it shall be knocked down to him?-I believe that very few of the marked animals are ever exposed at the sales, but I have known them exposed in some cases. I have known cattle being marked in that way, or pledged to Mr. Inkster at Brae; and if brought to the sale, they would have been entered in his name or in the name of the party who brought them, and the sellers would have got the full price.

8144. But more commonly, cattle that are so marked are taken over by the merchant himself privately?-Yes. I have known no other cases of parties bringing them to the sale, except Mr. Inkster.

8145. If a merchant does take over a beast in that way privately, I suppose you would still hold him responsible for the rent, if still unpaid, to the extent of the value of that beast, and if the period of your hypothec had not expired?-Certainly.

8146. Do you often have occasion to arrange with merchants in that sort of way?-No, very seldom. The rents are very generally paid up.

8147. Do you think the introduction of a system of short settlements, if it could be effected, would improve the character of the people on the Busta estate?-I believe it would.

8148. You would be in favour of such a system?-Certainly I would.

8149. From what you know of the country and of the people, do you think such a system would be practicable?-I don't know if it would be practicable in some cases. With regard to the fishermen, I don't think a short-settlement system would be practicable.

8150. Is that because the men are so much in need of advances at the beginning of the season?-Yes; they cannot get on until they receive advances. There would be no fishing at all if there were no advances.

8151. But under another system would advances be impracticable?-I don't know what that other system might be.

8152. Suppose the agreement was that the fishermen were to receive a bounty at the beginning of the season, which would enable them to equip themselves, and that the price for the fish was fixed at the end, so that the men would have the advantage of any rise that might take place, would that system be a better one than the present, in your opinion?-They would not have the advantage of the rise if the price were fixed.

8153. I am not supposing the price to be fixed. I am supposing the man to get a bounty which would be calculated very considerably within the probable value of his catch of fish for the season, and that the settlement was made at the end according to the market price when the fisherman would get anything additional that might be due?-I am not aware how that system might work.

8154. Have you any knowledge of the system adopted at Wick with regard to the herring fishery?-Yes. I know something about it.

8155. Is there not some system of that kind followed there?-I could not say just now.

8156. Do you think the system of paying for hosiery in goods is a good one?-No; I think it is a very bad system. I think the hosiery should be paid for in money, and the goods sold at the same price.

8157. Do you think the system has a bad effect in the separation of interests it creates between the different members of the same family?-I think it has a bad effect in this way, that some parties would be more careful if they had their money, whereas at the present time they don't have the chance of that.

8158. Does the same objection apply to the long settlements with the fishermen which you make with regard to the system of paying for the hosiery?-Yes. There is often a long settlement in the payment for the hosiery too. There is an account run for the payment of hosiery with many of the women. That would not signify so much if they were paid in cash when the settlement comes; but I am not aware that that is done, except perhaps in a few cases.

8159. Do you think women are induced under the present system to take more articles of dress than they require?-Not of dress.

8160. But they take anything they require unless money?-Some of them take provisions, and meal, and tea.

8161. In your part of the country, are provisions given for hosiery as well as goods?-Yes, and I know that hereabout a little cash is given too, but in very exceptional cases.*

*Mr. Gifford handed in the following statement, showing the number of holdings on the Busta and other estates under his charge and the amount of rent-

<No. of holdings on Busta. No. of holdings on other properties.>

Under £1 29 Under £1 2 " 2 38 " 2 2 " 3 53 " 3 5 " 4 83 " 4 4 " 5 101 " 5 8 " 6 92 " 6 9 " 7 86 " 7 8 " 8 19 " 8 4 " 9 11 " 9 4 " 10 2 " 12 2 " 12 7 " 14 1 " 14 4 Larger holdings 1 Larger holdings 5 50 480 Total rental, £2701 13 8 Total rental, £344 2 0

Brae, January 13, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTIAN JOHNSTON, examined.

8162. Are you the wife of a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-My husband was a fisherman once, but he does not fish now.

8163. Do you knit or weave?-I both knit and make gray cloth.

[Page 200]

8164. Do you sell both these articles at Brae or in Lerwick?-I sell them to any person that I get the wool from. I don't have wool of my own.

8165. By whom are you generally employed?-I have made some gray cloth for Mr. Anderson and some for Mr. Adie.

8166. Is it mostly gray cloth that you make?-Yes.

8167. Do you go to the shops and get the wool when you are out of it?-Yes.

8168. Do you buy it, or is it given to you?-We buy it.

8169. When you go back with it, are you paid for the work which you have put upon it?-We buy the wool, and then they buy the cloth from us again.

8170. What do you pay for the wool?-I bought 28 lbs. of it, and it was 1s. a lb.

8171. Do you spin it yourself?-Yes.

8172. How do you make the cloth?-There are men on the islands called wabsters who weave it.

8173. Then you spin the wool and take it to the wabsters to weave?-Yes.

8174. Do you pay for the wool when you get it at first?-We cannot pay for the wool until we get the cloth.

8175. Is it put down in your account?-Yes.

8176. And you are charged 1s. for it?-Yes.

8177. Do you take your web back to the merchant, or does the wabster take it to him?-I take the web and dress it, and go to the merchant with it.

8178. Who pays the wabster?-The merchant of course; it comes off what I have to get.

8179. Is the wabster paid at the time when he does the work, or when you come back from the merchant?-I pay him when I come back from the merchant after I have sold the cloth.

8180. How much cloth would you make out of 28 lbs. of wool?-I made 27 yards out of it.

8181. You make about a yard of cloth out of a pound of wool?- Yes; that is generally the way of it when it is ordinary wool.

8182. What is the price put upon the cloth when you take it back to the merchant?-That is just as the price stands; sometimes the price is up and sometimes not.

8183. But you spoke of a particular time when you got 28 lbs. of wool: was that long ago?-I got it in Christmas week, and I went back with it in the month of April.

8184. What did you get for it?-I got 2s. a yard.

8185. That would be 1s. a yard, for your work and the wabster?- Yes.

8186. Is that about an ordinary price?-It was the price that was given then.

8187. Do you sometimes get more than that?-Yes; if the price is up. I have got as high as 3s. 5d. for it.

8188. Was that long ago?-It is a few years since; I cannot recollect exactly.

8189. How are you paid for the cloth: do you get money for it?- Some pay in money and some not.

8190. Where do you get money?-I have got money in Mr. Adie's.

8191. Did you get money at that time when you went in April?- No.

8192. Why?-I don't know.

8193. What did you get?-I had just to take anything that was in the shop

8194. Were you told that you would not get money?-Yes.

8195. Did you want money?-Of course, I wanted a little.

8196. How much did you ask for?-I asked for the wabster's money. It was rather more than 6s.

8197. Did you get it?-Yes.

8198. Did you say you had to pay the wabster?-Yes; he was an old man, and I had to pay him.

8199. Why did you not get the rest in money?-The merchant made an objection that he would not.

8200. Why?-I don't know why.

8201. Did he say the bargain was that was to be paid in goods?- No, he could not say that.

8202. Why? Had you agreed upon a price before?-No.

8203. You were just to take the price that was the market price when you brought the cloth back?-Yes.

8204. Did you offer to take a less price if he gave the money?-He would give no money at all.

8205. Are you ever paid in money for your cloth?-Yes. I have been paid in money for some cloth.

8206. Is it a general thing in the country to pay in money, or to pay in goods?-When people have wool of their own, they make a difference.

8207. How would they make a difference?-Because if the wool had belonged to me I could have gone to any other merchant and sold it, but the wool was his.

8208. Was not the wool your own in this case?-If I had been able to pay for the wool when I took out, then it would have been my own.

8209. You mean that you got the wool on credit?-Yes.

8210. You had bought the wool, but you had not paid for it?-Yes.

8211. It was entered against you at 1s. a pound?-Yes.

8212. Then the wool was your own, although you might be owing Mr. Adie money for the price?-It was not Mr. Adie that that wool belonged to: it was Mr. Anderson that I got it from.

8213. And he would not give you the money at all?-He would not.

8214. Why did you not take it to somebody else and sell it for, money? If you had done that, you could then have sent the 28s. to Mr. Anderson, which you were due to him for the wool: did you not think of doing that?-No; I did not think of doing it.

8215. Could you have done that?-I might; I don't know; I never asked.

8216. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have objected, or would he have allowed you to take the cloth away again after you had brought it?-I cannot say because I never asked about that.

8217. Did you ever ask money before with which to pay the wabster?-Yes.

8218. Did you get it?-I have got money before from Mr. Anderson himself,-money to pay the wabster.

8219. Did you get as much as you wanted for that purpose?-Yes; just for the wabster.

8220. But not for your own work?-No.

8221. You had to take what was due you for your own work in goods?-Yes.

8222. I suppose you always wanted these goods for your own use?-We are always needing goods.

8223. But were you quite content to take the goods in place of money?-Yes, sometimes.

8224. You would rather have had the money sometimes?-Yes.

8225. But was it not the rule in the trade, and was it not the bargain made with you, that you were to take goods, and not to seek money?-No; there was no bargain made about it.

8226. Is it not the understanding in the trade that the cloth is to be paid for in goods and not in money?-I don't know.

8227. Have you made any cloth since that?-Yes. I made a piece for Mr Adie, but I got the money for it.

8228. Did you get money for the whole value?-Yes.

8229. Or was it just what you required for the wabster?-No; I got money for all that I had to get.

8230. Did you get the wool on that occasion from Mr. Adie?- Yes.

8231. He just charged you for the wool and gave you the whole balance for your work in money?-Yes.

8232. What quantity was there of that?-I don't recollect; we are always getting something out of the shop.

8233. Then you did not get the whole price of your work at that time in money?-No; I had got something out of the shop before that I was needing.

8234. You were due an account at the shop?-Yes.

[Page 201]

8235. Was that account as much as the value of the cloth?-No.

8236. You had something over to get?-Yes.

8237. Did you get what was over in money?-Yes, I got £1.

8238. Was that lately?-It was before Christmas.

8239. Do you keep an account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-No, I keep no account.

8240. But you had an account at the time when you settled for that cloth?-Yes.

8241. How long had that account been running?-For about two years.

8242. Did you go and get the wool and make the cloth in order to settle up that account?-Yes.

8243. Was your husband fishing at the time when you were due that account?-No; it was my own account.

8244. Is it a usual thing for a woman, when she is making cloth in that way, to have an account of her own with the merchant?-Yes.

8245. She gets the goods she wants and then settles for them when she brings the cloth?-Yes.

8246. How often do you settle when you have an account running in that way?-It is not often that I make the cloth, for I have very little time in which to make it.

8247. Do you ever knit?-I knit very little except what is required for my own family.

8248. Do any of your daughters help you in making the cloth or in knitting?-Yes.

8249. You all work at it?-Yes.

8250. Have you separate accounts, or do you all keep the same account with the merchant for your cloth?-We all keep the same account. We have no separate accounts.

8251. Do you think you would be better off if you got the whole payment of your cloth in money?-We might be better, but we are always needing something from the merchant.

8252. You don't think you could buy your goods any cheaper if you had money?-I don't know.

Brae, January 13, 1872, MRS GRACE WILLIAMSON, examined.

8253. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.

8254. Do you knit and also make cloth?-Yes.

8255. Have you heard what Mrs. Johnston said just now?-Yes.

8256. Have you the same way of dealing about your cloth which she has described?-No. I do not make any cloth except with what little wool I have of my own, and I sell it. I am paid for it just at the price which is going.

8257. Are you paid for it in money or in goods?-I get the price either in goods or in money, either way I choose to ask it.

8258. Do you generally get the same price for your cloth if you take it in money?-Yes. I sold a piece this winter to Mr. Adie, and I got the same in money for it as I would have got in goods.

8259. How much did you sell?-I sold about 30 yards.

8260. What was the price of it?-3s. 1d.

8261. Was the price higher then than it was in April?-Yes.

8262. Was your cloth better than Mrs. Johnston's?-I do not know.

8263. Was that paid to you altogether in money?-No; I took some goods.

8264. Had you an account at the shop at that time?-No. I never had any kind of credit in the shop before. I did not mark anything.

8265. Had you got anything before from the shop at all?-No.

8266. You just took some goods at the time when you took in the cloth?-Yes.

8267. What was the price of the goods you bought?-I can scarcely recollect.

8268. Was it £2 or £3?-No; I think it was something more than £1, but I cannot recollect.

8269. And you got the rest in money?-Yes.

8270. That would be £3 or £4 you would get in money?-I don't recollect what it was. My husband was along with me, and I did not keep an account for myself.

8271. Was it your husband that took in the cloth?-He and I were together.

8272. Have you always continued dealing in the same manner, getting what you wanted in goods, and as much as you required in money?-Yes, of course. Mr. Inkster is the only merchant we have any credit with.

8273. Have you an account with Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

8274. Does your husband fish for him?-Yes.

8275. And do you sell cloth to him too?-Yes; I sold some last year to him.

8276. Have you a book with him?-No; we don't keep any account ourselves. The things are entered in the book which he keeps himself.

8277. Have you an account with him in your own name as well as your husband?-I don't have any account in my name. One account serves for us both.

8278. Is it customary in these parts for one account to do for both husband and wife?-I don't know about any one except myself.

8279. Do you knit any?-A little but the cloth is the most that I do.

8280. Do you get money for your cloth at Mr. Inkster's place if you want it?-Yes, we get money if we ask for it.

8281. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year when you settle?-Yes.

8282. That balance is for your husband's fish and for your cloth?-Yes.

8283. That is to say, what you have to get for your fish and your cloth is a good deal more than you have to pay for things you have got out of the shop?-Of course it is.

8284. And you have to pay your rent out of that balance?-Yes.

8285. Have you always been in the habit of getting money for your wabster?-Yes; when we require money and ask for it we get it.

8286. Would you have got as much money two or three years ago as you got the last time you went with cloth?-No; cloth was not so high last year as it was then.

8287. But suppose you had, two or three years ago, taken a web that was worth £4, would you have got £2 or £3 in money on the price of it?-Yes, if I had asked for it I would have got it.

8288. Would you have got that five years ago if you had been selling it at that time?-I don't know about five years ago. I don't recollect.

8289. Did you ever get as much money before as you got on that last occasion?-Yes; but we took goods when we required them. There were some years ago when we were getting a bigger price. Mr. Anderson gave 3s. 8d. out-takes (<i.e.> in goods), and 3s. 5d. in money; but I don't recollect how long ago that was.

8290. Then there were two prices for your cloth?-Yes.

8291. Did you ever sell £4 worth of cloth four or five years ago?- I don't think it.

8292. Did you ever sell £2 worth?-I think so.

8293. Did you ever get one-half or three-fourths of that in money?-I cannot recollect; it was always my husband who went with it, and he would recollect better.

8294. Did you ever get above 5s. in money for your wabster before this time?-Yes; we have got more than that, if we asked for it.

8295. How much more?-I cannot say exactly. We just got what we asked, unless the price was all the lower.

8296. Did you ever get 10s. in cash before?-Yes.

8297. Did you ever get 15s. in cash?-Yes.

[Page 202]

8298. Or £1?-Yes: I have got that too, if I had to get, and if I was not taking out goods.

8299. If you got £1, how much would be the price of the web which you took in?-I could not say unless I recollected exactly what number of yards there were.

8300. But you said you never sold as much as £4 worth before?-I don't mind about that. I may have done it, but I don't recollect.

8301. Do you ever mind of selling £3 worth?-Yes.

8302. Did you ever get £1 in cash out of that?-Yes; I would have got £1 out of that.

8303. But did you get it?-Well, we have got it, but I cannot mind the time exactly.

8304. Do you think it has been easier to get cash for your webs during the last year than it was before?-It may have been; but we were always needing goods, and it is just as well for us to take goods when we are needing them, as to get money and go anywhere else farther off. Of course, if we did not get goods here at a reasonable price, we might get them farther off.

8305. I suppose you know that you want the goods yourself?- Yes.

8306. And you know that the merchant would rather sell you the goods than give you money?-I cannot say that I ever saw any case with any merchant I ever dealt with where he would not give us the money if we had asked for it. I never was much in debt to any merchant.

8307. But it was mostly your husband that took the goods in?- Yes. I never was much in with any merchant, and therefore I could go to any place where thought I could get most for my work.

Brae, January 13, 1872, MARGARET WILLIAMSON, examined.

8308. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.

8309. Do you knit or make cloth?-I knit mostly, but I make some cloth too. I knit men's shirts and women's sleeves.

8310. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have to buy some but I have some of my own too.

8311. The wool was not given out to you to knit?-No.

8312. Where do you sell what you knit?-For the last three years I have sold it in Lerwick.

8313. Do you always go to Lerwick with it?-Yes, with all that I knit.

8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get goods, because I can get nothing else.

8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken in and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they would not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's.

8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them.

8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at length, but they said we must take goods.

8318. Did you need all these goods for your own use?-I needed them all at that time, but I don't need them all now. If I knit any, I need hardly any goods now.

8319. If you were knitting now, you would rather have the money?-Yes; because I am needing hardly anything else.

8320. Do you live with your parents?-Yes.

8321. I suppose you would like to help them a little in keeping the house if you could get money for your knitting?-Yes; because my father is an old man, and is very sickly, and he is not able to keep the house as he used to do.

8322. Is it the case that you cannot help him because you cannot get money for your knitting?-Yes; I cannot help him in that way.

8323. Have you ever given away any of the goods you have got to your neighbours for money or for provisions?-No; I kept them all to myself.

8324. Do you sell the cloth you make in the same way that Mrs. Johnston and Mrs. Williamson have stated?-Yes.

8325. You get some wool from the merchant?-Yes.

8326. And that is set down against your name in an account?- Yes; until the cloth is brought back to the shop.

8327. When the cloth is brought back, the price the wool is deducted?-Yes.

8328. Do you get the balance in money?-Yes always in money, if I like to take it in money.

8329. Do you sometimes take it in goods?-I generally take it in money, because I am not needing goods.

8330. Do you think you would get a bigger price if you took it in goods?-Sometimes it is all the same. This year it is all the same whether you take money or goods.

8331. But some years it is different?-Yes, a little.

8332. Does the merchant tell you generally that he would rather you were to take the price out in goods?-No. The most of the cloth which I have made has been for Mr. Adie, and he gives me the money just soon as the goods.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GIDEON WILLIAMSON, examined.

8333. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.

8334. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.

8335. Whom do you fish for generally?-For Inkster. I have fished for him for five years.

8336. Do you settle every year in the spring?-We settle at Hallowmas for the twelve months.

8337. Do you always deal in Mr. Inkster's shop-Yes; I deal oftenest there.

8338. What do you go for elsewhere?-It is very trifling. My dealings are mostly with him.

8339. Is that because you fish for him?-Yes.

8340. Have you an account?-Yes.

8341. Are you obliged to deal on credit?-Yes, sometimes I am, because I must have supplies.

8342. Is that the reason why you go to his shop?-No. I would just as soon deal with him, if I had money, as I would go elsewhere.

8343. Is there any other place hereabout where you could deal?- Yes; but I would just as soon deal with Mr. Inkster as with any other man.

8344. Are you generally behind at the settlement?-Sometimes I am a little.

8345. But sometimes you have a balance to get in cash?- Sometimes; but sometimes the seasons are so bad that I have to go to him for a little supplies.

8346. I suppose that is the reason why you continue to fish for him? If you owe him a little money, you don't like to go and fish for another man?-I don't see what I could get by fishing for another; I pay him the same for his goods, and he pays me the same for my fish as another would do.

8347. Are his goods of as good a quality as in other shops?-Yes.

8348. Have you known any fishermen who have left one employer and gone to fish for another?-No; not that I could point out.

8349. A man generally continues to fish for the same merchant?- Yes; unless it may be a man who changes and goes south.

8350. But if he remains in the same place, does he generally go on fishing for the same merchant for years?-Yes; but I have heard of some of them shifting.

8351. What do they shift for generally?-They may shift to get chances in boats belonging to other curers.

8352. They think they may be better off perhaps by getting into another crew?-Yes.

[Page 203]

8353. Do men sometimes want to shift to another crew or another master, and are prevented from doing so because they are in debt?-I have never tried that.

8354. Do you know whether that is ever the case?-I could not answer that question, because I would not like to say anything I was not sure about.

8355. I suppose you would not think of leaving Mr. Inkster so long as you were in his debt?-Even if I was clear with him, I see no good I could do to myself by leaving him. If I ask him for money, I get it, just the same as out-takes; and I get out-takes from him, just the same as if I was paying down ready money for them.

8356. Do you think you would be any better off if you had not to run such a long account?-I don't know. A poor man generally can have very little until it comes perhaps to the twelvemonth's end; and if it were not that we have sometimes a beast to sell, or something like that, we would have very little to live on throughout the year, because the fishing time is only for about three months in the summer.

8357. You think if you were settled with at shorter periods, you would not have enough to carry you through the year?-Yes.

8358. And you could not settle with the merchant at the end, because the account you have to pay is bigger than what you have to get?-Yes.

8359. Is that sometimes the case?-Yes; because for some years there has been a good deal of bread to get in consequence of lean crops, and that brings the poor fishermen very much down.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN WOOD, examined.

8360. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.

8361. Do you fish for Mr. Inkster?-Yes.

8362. Have you heard what Gideon Williamson said?-Yes.

8363. Is your way of dealing the same as he has described?-Yes; the very same.

8364. Have you anything different to say?-No.

8365. How long have you fished for Mr. Inkster?-Nine years.

8366. Have you ever wished to change?-No.

8367. Do you always get your supplies from him?-Yes.

8368. Are you generally somewhat behind at the end of the year?-Sometimes.

8369. Who did you fish for before?-Mr. Anderson.

8370. Why did you leave him?-Because it was more convenient for us where we lived to fish for Mr. Inkster.

8371. Were you clear with Mr. Anderson when you left him?- Very nearly. I think I was due him £1 or so.

8372. When did you pay that up?-Mr. Inkster paid it up for me. He sent it to Mr. Anderson at the end of the season.

8373. Is that a usual thing to do when a man has shifted?-Yes,

8374. His new employer pays up the whole of his debt?-Yes.

8375. Have you heard of that being done often?-Yes; I have heard of it being done.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, examined.

8376. You are a tenant on the Busta estate?-Yes.

8377. Do you fish any?-No.

8378. I understand you have come here to say something about your line of life and its bearing upon this inquiry: what is it?-My principal means of living is that I get an annuity for keeping some pauper lunatics belonging to several parishes, Delting and Tingwall, and so forth.

8379. What have you got to say about that?-At the time when I commenced to do that, I unfortunately was not clear with the man who now supplies me.

8380. Who is that?-Mr. Thomas Adie.

8381. Had you been a fisherman before?-No; I had been a sawyer for many years.

8382. Had you kept an account at Voe?-Yes.

8383. Were you behind with it?-Yes, a little.

8384. How much?-I could not exactly say, but it was a good deal.

8385. Was it £20?-Perhaps more at times, and sometimes less; but we will say it was that.

8386. What have you to say about it?-I want to speak about the way of supply, and the prices of provisions and other things; I never had my money at command.

8387. How long ago is it since you had that debt?-It is perhaps ten years ago since I commenced with one pauper, and then I got another one. I gave Mr. Adie leave to draw my money with which to settle my accounts, and I got supplies from him.

8388. Where do you draw your money from?-From the parishes that I had got the lunatics from.

8389. Was it because you were due Mr. Adie money when you left that you gave him leave to draw your money?-It was not that altogether. It was quite right, when I was due him an account, that he should be paid for it, but he drew my money from the parishes and supplied me with meal. Perhaps I required ten or twelve sacks a year. I do not get it all from him now. If I had had the use of my money, I might have tried to settle the old account with Mr. Adie and have got my meal where I liked, but I could not do that. With the money I could have got my articles at cost price. I asked my money from Mr. Adie, but he refused to give it me some years ago.

8390. He refused to give it you because you had made an arrangement with him that he was to draw the money?-Yes; not to lay it out, but only to draw it for me.

8391. Was it not the arrangement that he was to draw it for you in order that he might pay his own debt?-We never had any arrangement of that kind, but that was perhaps considered to be the arrangement both by him and me. I would have done that willingly.

8392. Have you squared up your accounts with Mr. Adie at any time?-It is a good while since I was able to do that without injuring me otherwise; but Adie having the use of my money, I got my things from him.

8393. What was the account for which was due to Mr. Adie?-For meal principally, and clothing.

8394. Have you got an account?-Yes; it is in Mr. Adie's book at Voe.

8395. Have you gone over every year at settling time and squared up your account, and seen how much you were due to him, or how much he was due to you, at the end of the year?-Sometimes I did and sometimes not. I knew that I was not able to meet that account, because I did not have the use of my money. If I wanted a dozen sacks of meal, I was always told that there was 2s. a sack as commission for the risk of getting it, and ultimately I wrote to the meal dealers in the south, and I found that there was a difference of 10s. on the sack of meal; that, upon 12 sacks, would have been a saving of £6 alone.

8396. Did you give Mr. Adie an order to the inspector to pay the money to him which was due to you?-Yes, I told Mr. Adie to draw it for me, and I signed an order that he was to draw it.

8397. And he has drawn it ever since?-Yes.

8398. Was that for the money which you were to get from Delting parish?-Yes.

8399. Is Mr. Adie a member of the Parochial Board of that parish?-Yes.

8400. Is he the chairman?-I don't know.

8401. Who is the inspector of that parish?-Mr. Louttit.

8402. What do you think can be done for you?-I made my complaint to Mr. Adie lately about the state of these things; but it is not my wish to mention the names of any parties. It is only the practice that I object to.

[Page 204]

8403. What practice do you refer to?-This truck system, and the enormous prices that are charged.

8404. What have you to say about the prices? You have told me that you can save £6 on 12 sacks of meal by dealing south?-Yes, by dealing with Tod Brothers. I wrote to them about it, and they answered me.

8405. Have you got their answer?-No, I have not got it, but I remember it quite well.

8406. How long ago was that?-Just two or three years since.

8407. What was the price of Mr. Adie's meal at that time?-It was 34s. per sack for Indian corn meal.

8408. What was the price of Messrs. Tod Brothers'?-22s.

8409. That was it difference of 12s. per sack?-Yes, but it left me to pay the freight, which would be about 2s. 6d.

8410. Could you have got the meal brought up here for 2s. 6d.?- Yes, or whatever the 'Queen of the Isles' charged.

8411. How many sacks of Indian corn meal would you require in it year?-Perhaps about a dozen sacks.

8412. Do you feed the lunatics on that meal?-No, not the lunatics, but my own family, and sometimes the lunatics too.

8413. Have you made any comparison between the prices charged at Mr. Adie's shop and elsewhere?-Yes. I could buy it at Mr. Robertson's store, at Vidlin, for 27s.; that, upon 12 sacks, would make it difference 4s. between the two places.

8414. Could you not have got your meal from Mr. Robertson's store?-I got some of it, because I kept a party from Lunnasting, and I got part of my supplies there.

8415. Did you get your supplies for that lunatic from Lunnasting?-Occasionally, when I asked them.

8416. Had you an account there?-Yes; I could either get money or anything that I wanted which was due. I could not have done that with Mr. Adie; and therefore I have never been able to get clear of my debt to him.

8417. Did you bring your supplies all the way from Mr. Robertson's store to where you lived?-Yes.

8418. Was that because you kept a lunatic pauper from that parish?-Yes. I took advantage of that, because I could get my goods cheaper there but I could have got money as well, and have gone to any other place with it. If I had had money to get from Mr. Adie, I would have got it from him too with good will, but I never had it to get, and it is that which has kept me deeper and deeper in spite of all I could do.

8419. Could you not have gone to the Parochial Board of Delting, and got your money whenever you pleased, instead of letting Mr. Adie draw it?-I might have got it, but Mr. Adie at one settlement made up a line, and I was compelled to sign it, that he was to draw all the money which I had to get for the lunatic from that parish. I signed it because he wrote me a letter saying I was to come down and pay my account, and then to transfer my custom, which I was not able to do without leaving me destitute.

8420. Have you got that letter?-No.

8421. What did you do with it?-I just destroyed it carelessly.

8422. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say. If I state it incorrectly, it is not done willingly, but it may have been three years since. At the same time I asked Mr. Adie to give me the use of my money, and to keep some of it in order to pay the old account, but he did not do it, and that is the main cause why I am so far behind. I could have had my account with him paid by the profits I could have saved from dealing in the south; I am perfectly sure of that.

8423. But if you wanted your money, why could you not have gone to the Parochial Board and told them to pay you, and not to regard Mr. Adie's orders about it?-What would have become of what I was due to Mr. Adie if I had got the money from the Parochial Board? It was my duty, and I had to pay it to him. At that very time Mr. Adie told his shopman not to supply me unless I came to his shop with cash.

8424. But you wanted to stop going to him because you thought you could get your supplies cheaper elsewhere?-If I had got my supplies in the south, I could have paid him something yearly and lived better. I was making my complaint to Mr. Adie lately, and he promised (and no man was ever deceived in anything that Mr. Adie ever promised, neither was I) that for the future I should get my things at cash price. So far as I am concerned, I have no cause of complaint now; but that has been the cause why I am in debt.

8425. How long ago was that arrangement made about getting your things at cash price?-It may be two or three months ago, and I have got a part of the debt realized since. I have no reason to doubt Mr. Adie's word, or that of any of his sons.

8426. You have one lunatic from Delting, and you have another from Lunnasting?-Yes. I have not got a lunatic from Lunnasting, but a pauper that I keep at a separate house.

8427. But in consequence of having that pauper you get some supplies at Vidlin?-Yes.

8428. Who pays you for the keep of that pauper?-The inspector, Mr. John Anderson, of Lunnasting.

8429. Was there any arrangement made when you got that pauper, that you were to take supplies at Vidlin?-None whatever; it is by my own will that I go there. I can get money, or anything I like; but when I find it convenient, and that the goods are cheaper there than elsewhere, I go and take them.

8430. Are Vidlin and Voe the only places where you get supplies?-Yes; I have dealt with Mr. Adie for thirty years; and I have no cause of complaint against him, except the enormous price which he generally charges for his goods.

8431. Is there any other article which you could name besides meal which is charged at an enormous price?-This place is farther north, and the goods here should be charged a shade dearer, because there is more expense in bringing them.

8432. But can you mention any one article, such as cotton or cloth, which is dearer here than at Lerwick?-You can make a better bargain in Lerwick than in the north.

8433. Have you done that frequently?-Yes.

8434. You only keep three paupers?-Yes.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES ROBERTSON, examined.

8435. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I was a fisherman at one time, but I am not fishing now; I am too old to go to sea.

8436. Has it always been the practice of the fishermen there to deal with the merchants they sell their fish to?-Yes; for forty years back. I have been about thirty years in the fishing.

8437. Have you been at the Faroe fishing?-No; I always went to the ling fishing.

8438. Did you always keep an account with the merchant who employed you?-Yes.

8439. Did you always fish for the same merchant?-Yes, for John Anderson & Co. and for Mr. Leisk, who was there before them.

8440. You always had an account at Hillswick?-Yes.

8441. Did you always go to Hillswick for your supplies?-No; only twice a year. I went for my fishing gear before the season began, and then at the end of the season I went again to settle.

8442. Did you get supplies then?-Yes, if I needed them.

8443. Did you always get the balance in cash when it was due?- Very often it was not due, and I could not expect a thing which was not due.

8444. Why was it not due?-Because of the bad [Page 205] fishings, and of the meal being very dear then; much more so than it is now.

8445. Did you always get more supplies than the value of your fish?-No, I did not do that always.

8446. But generally?-No, not at any time; I always tried to deal so as not to be in debt.

8447. But you said there was seldom anything to get at settling?- There was very seldom any cash that I had to take, because they were lean fishings.

8448. And because you had got supplies up to the value of your fish?-No; but I did not ask for any supplies beyond what I required for the fishing, and perhaps a little meal for my family, which they could not do without.

8449. But the price of that was generally as much you had to get at settlement?-It was.

8450. Was it ever more?-Not very often.

8451. Did you ever think of changing from one employer to another?-No, I did not think of that, because I did not see any good it could do me.

8452. Do you think you would not have got a better price?-No.

8453. And you would not have got better supplies from another merchant?-The only merchant I ever dealt with was Mr. Inkster, because his shop is nearest to me, and I always found his goods as cheap as any other man's.

8454. Would it not have been far more convenient for you to have got all your goods from Mr. Inkster's, instead of carrying them from Hillswick?-Yes; but with regard to lines and hooks, and such things as we require for the fishing, we could not get them from Mr. Inkster, because we were bound to go for them to the man that we fished for.

8455. How long is it since you gave up fishing?-About eight years ago.

8456. You continued to go to the merchant for whom you fished until that time?-Yes.

8457. Did you never think of fishing for Mr. Inkster?-No, because the men I fished with in the boat wanted to go to Mr. Anderson, and I did not want to make discord in the boat's crew.

8458. Have you heard the evidence of the other witnesses from Muckle Roe, Gideon Williamson and John Wood?-Yes.

8459. Is there anything additional that you want to say?-No.

8460. Do you think the fishermen are generally quite free to engage to fish to any employer they like?-They are quite right to engage to any man that would give the best bargain and the best agreement, and that is the thing they should do.

8461. But they would just get as good a bargain from one merchant as from another?-Yes, equally the same because it appears that one fish merchant won't pay more for his fish than another does.

8462. So that the fishermen would have no advantage in changing?-No.

8463. They cannot better themselves by shifting?-They cannot.

8464. Has that been your experience since you have been a fisherman?-It has been my experience all my life, and many besides me have found the same thing.

8465. They would like to better to themselves, but they could not?-That is the very thing.

8466. Do you think they would be better by curing their own fish?-They have no chance of curing their own fish, because those who do so have to find booths for them until the crafts come to take away the cured fish. Besides, poor men like fishermen cannot do that.

8467. They have to buy salt for the curing, and that costs a lot of money?-Yes.

8468. So that they are obliged to give their fish green to the merchant?-Yes.

8469. Have you ever known men to make any attempt to cure fish for themselves?-I have.

8470. Have they not been any better off in that way?-If the fish-curers had been agreeable to them doing that, they would have made a little off it. They would have saved, perhaps, a few pounds on the ton, but they could not find booths in which to put their fish at the season when they require to be housed. They had to pay cellar rent to the parties to whom the booths belonged.

8471. Could they sell their fish at as good a price as the curers could?-No. They could not seek out for purchasers in the south country as the curers can do, and they were obliged to sell their fish to the Shetland merchants and at the price which was current here.

8472. Don't you think the men would be better off if they could get payment for their fish earlier in the season, and could go and deal at any store they liked for their goods?-I don't know that that would be any advantage to them, because they know by experience that their earnings are very small, and they could not afford to take them in that way. They must try to save their earnings for their rents, and for the maintenance of their families.

8473. But if they got their money in their hand, instead of running an account, would they not make a better use of it?-I don't know. Some of them might be inclined to do so and some not.

8474. Might they not buy their goods cheaper if they had the money to pay for them?-Some of them might, but some of them might spend their money very carelessly.

8475. Did you hear what Gilbert Scollay said about getting meal cheaper in the south than it can be got here?-We all know that that is the case.

8476. Have any of you tried to get it in that way?-No.

8477. Why?-From want of knowledge. We don't know where to go in order to find the cheapest market for meal.

8478. But Gilbert Scollay found out where to go and he would have told you?-Gilbert Scollay might have done that, but we never like to deal in the kind of meal which he bought.

8479. You could have got any sort of meal if you had asked it?- Yes, he would have got any sort.

8480. And so would you if you had gone to the right quarter. Don't you think if a lot of you now were to agree to buy meal from a man in the south, and were getting the price of your fish in cash, so that you could pay for the meal in cash, you would be able to make a better thing of it?-There is no mistake about that.

8481. What is to hinder a boat's crew or two from agreeing to bring their own meal from the south?-The fish-curer must supply them with money before they could do that.

8482. Will not the curer advance money to the men if they want it?-It would just be at his own option.

8483. Do you think the fish-curer would not give you the money before the end of the season?-I don't know, I never asked it, and what a man has not asked he cannot speak to at all.

8484. Do you think he would be likely to do it?-The merchants might do it to some, and to some they would not. They could not be expected to do it to a man who was indebted to them; but if a man was clear with them, they might have no objections to advance the money.

8485. I suppose it would not be easy to find a boat's crew where some of the men were not in debt?-I think there are a good few boats' crews of that kind.

8486. Could not a boat's crew, where none of the men were in debt, get their money in that way?-Certainly they could if they wished it.

8487. And they could import their meal from the south if they found it any cheaper?-Perhaps they could.

8488. Do any of your people knit or weave?-They do.

8489. Are they paid for their work in the way which Mrs. Williamson and Mrs. Johnston have described?-Yes.

8490. They are paid mostly in goods?-They can take either goods or money, because they are not in debt to any man.

8491. Do you keep an account with any merchant?-No; I keep the family accounts.

[Page 206]

8492. Do you keep them all in one?-Yes.

8493. Is that a common way at Muckle Roe?-I think it is, and I think it is the best way.

8494. Have you sometimes taken their webs to sell to the merchants?-Yes, I have sometimes done so.

8495. Have you ever got money for a web?-Yes, if I wanted it.

8496. But did you ever get it?-I have. I have got £4 at a time, when the web was worth it.

8497. Was that long ago?-It was this very year.

8498. Did you get it all in money?-Yes.

8499. Was that at Voe?-No, it was at Brae from Mr. Inkster.

8500. Did you ever get as much money before for any web?-No, I don't think so.

8501. Were you paid mostly in goods before?-No, not altogether in goods. If I did not require the goods, I could have it in money, because if I was not in debt to them they were obliged to pay me the money.

8502. Were they always obliged to pay money for webs?-Yes, to men who were clear with them, and who would not take their wool from them.

8503. But a man who was not clear would not get all money?- No, he could not expect it.

8504. The price of his cloth would be put to his account?-Yes.

8505. And he might get a little money if he wanted it?-Yes. I never knew a merchant to refuse a man a little money if he was in need of it.

8506. But the man had to tell the merchant that he was in need of it?-Yes, if he was in need, he had to explain that to him.

8507. If a man was in debt to a merchant, and wanted to get money for his web, could he not take it to another merchant?-Yes; but it would not be very fair to do so. A man who is in debt to another ought always to pay his debt when he can.

8508. But he might pay it at another time and he might be wanting the money for his own immediate needs?-Such cases as that might occur, but not very often.

8509. You think the people round about you don't often do that?- I don't think they do.

Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, examined.

8510. Are you a fisherman and farmer near Brae?-Yes, about a mile or a mile and a half north from this.

8511. Have you a good bit of land?-Yes, just about as big as most of the people have hereabouts-a small allotment.

8512. Have you got a brother in Ollaberry?-I have a brother-in- law there, and a cousin, William Blanch.

8513. Have you been present to-day?-Not all the time. I have been here for about an hour.

8514. Have you heard the description which has been given of how the fishermen are settled with for their accounts?-Yes. I was present at the first meeting which was held at Brae.

8515. Do you settle in the same way as you have heard described?-Yes, much in the same way; but I am a Faroe fisherman, and I have been so for the last twelve years.

8516. Are you a skipper?-Yes.

8517. Who do you ship with?-I have been employed by Mr. Adie's firm for the last five years. Before that I went out from Lerwick. I went for Mr. Sutherland, and then for Mr. George Reid Tait.

8518. You settle every year in the winter?-Yes, or sometimes twice in one year, but not often.

8519. You get supplies, as a rule, from the merchant in whose smack you go to the fishing?-Yes, we get that if we require them.

8520. But, as a rule, do you get your supplies from that merchant?-As a rule we do, but there are exceptions. For my own part, I have never been under the necessity of taking out supplies unless I chose; but, generally speaking, I have taken them out, especially stores required for our own use in the vessel.

8521. And when anything is required for the man's family at home during the season, is it generally got from the same merchant?-It may be. In most cases,, I think, that would be the case; but, for my own part, was not bound to do that, because at the time of settlement I had always something to take, and I could deal where I chose.

8522. You say you were not bound to do it: is it common for men to feel that they are bound to do that?-Of course. If I was employed by a curer or a merchant, and had been in the habit of dealing with another before I was employed by him, I would consider it something like a duty, in a moral point of view, to put my money into his shop, and I have done so, although I have never been obligated to do it.

8523. Are some of the men obligated to do that?-I think they are obligated, for this reason, that they could scarcely help themselves. Perhaps they had not the money to purchase their goods elsewhere, and they were bound for that reason from a selfish motive.

8524. You think they could not get credit elsewhere?-Yes. Some of them I know could not get it elsewhere. Perhaps some of them could.

8525. But the merchant who employs men at the Faroe fishing is generally ready to give credit to a man who is in these circumstances, and who does not have money?-Of course he does. He understands he has that to do. They make advances, perhaps before, but as soon as the men engage to go to the fishing. It may be about this time, or it may be a month previous to this, when they make the engagement to go.

8526. And they made an advance then either in cash or in out-takes?-I don't think they will likely give much cash. They may give 8s. or 10s. in cash, but unless they know the man is to be depended upon I don't think they will give much more. They may give man until he has made some earning by his fishing; but unless it is a case where they know it can be paid back again by the man otherwise, they will not give it. He may pay it out of his stock for instance, he may have some other means. For my own part, of course, I was always so far able to pay my account, and I never had need to ask for money. I can only speak to that from personal experience; but I have known men who sailed with me for eight or nine years, and I know they have got a little money, perhaps 10s. or £1, at a time when they required it.

8527. Although they were bound?-I did not know about their being bound. I would not say much about that. I daresay some of them would be bound, and some of them were not.

8528. Have you ever known men being bound when, they engaged to a merchant?-No. I may have heard about it, but I could not show it by proof.

8529. Have you heard of men who are obligated, as you said, to engage with it particular merchant for the fishing because they were in his debt?-No; I could not say definitely as to that.

8530. Have you had an idea or it notion that a man might have engaged for that reason?-Yes; I have had that idea, and I have been told so by men themselves, but these men are not here, and I could not say that it was actually the case. For my own part, I have never been in these circumstances.

8531. Have you ever considered whether you would be better under any other arrangement than making settlement at the end of the year for the Faroe fishing?-I have considered that matter, and I have often thought that we might have been better than we are under the present state of matters. That may have been partly our own blame, in consequence of the want of information among the fishermen; but I have often thought, and I think so still, that we don't have that fair play which we ought to have. I think the present system is almost, if not altogether, a one-sided arrangement for the merchant. That is my opinion with regard to the Faroe fishing, and the ling fishers say the [Page 207] same. We don't know what we are to get until the end of the season. We go and toil away and catch fish if we can, but we don't know what we are to get for them until the time of settlement. There is an arrangement made between the fish-curers or merchants, and by that time they have made up their minds, and have fixed upon certain price, while we under our agreement have just to take what they please to give us. Our understanding is that the crew get one-half of the nett, and the fish-merchant or curer gets the other half for his vessel. Of course, the salt and the expenses of curing deducted, and the master's and mate's extra, and the score money.

8532. There are some deductions before you come to the nett?- Yes; we don't get one half of the gross; we only get one-half of the nett. There is allowance for salt and curing, which is generally £2, 10s., and I think it could be done cheaper, but that may be our own blame. Then there is the master's extra and the mate's extra, which is a fee of so much per ton to each, according as the agreement is made.

8533. What other deduction is there?-There is score-money, and there may be the expense of bringing the fish to market.

8534. Is that a deduction, or does it not come off the merchant's half of the nett?-I don't know exactly how that is done. We never see the account sales of the fish, although we ought to see them, but that may be our own blame too.

8535. You don't know whether the merchant gets commission of 5 per cent?-I have been told so by one merchant that I was employed by, Mr. Grierson. I never was told that by any other merchant for whom I was employed, but Mr. Grierson told me that was actually so in his case.

8536. You are a skipper, and you actually don't know how the deductions are made which come off before the nett produce is halved?-Of course I have asked about these things, and I have been told that there were no other deductions taken off beyond what have mentioned.

8537. Do you have nothing to do with the making of these deductions yourself?-No.

8538. You have nothing to do with the weighing of the fish, nor with the selling of them?-No; nor with making a market for them.

8539. But you think you might be more fairly dealt with than you are?-I think we might. I don't know whether that is altogether the merchant's blame, but think we could have a fairer understanding, for two reasons: In the first place, we ought to have an understanding when we start or engage that we are to have a certain fixed price for our fish, the same as the Englishmen have. They know what they are to get before their fish are caught.

8540. Where do these Englishmen fish?-They are in smacks that come from London and Grimsby and Hull and Berwick, and they fish for curers in Shetland, and land their fish here.

8541. Have these men all an agreement for a fixed price?-So far as I understand, they have. At least I have been told so by themselves.

8542. These men have a fixed agreement with the curers here to whom they sell?-Yes. Of course, their men are not paid in the same way as we are. The men on board these vessels, except the masters, are paid by weekly wages.

8543. And the master makes a bargain with the merchant here about the fish?-I rather think it is the owner who makes the bargain.

8544. Do you know the nature of the bargain they make?-I cannot say that I know definitely. I know the merchant here agrees to pay them a fixed price when the fish are landed in a dry state. They are salted on board the vessels, and they get £10, £11, or £12 a ton for salted fish when landed. They know they are to get that before the fish are caught, and they cannot expect anything more. Now; I say we ought to have something like that, and then we would know what we were actually working for. It might be that in that way we would get less than we do present, but we would have a fair understanding. If we lost in one year, we might gain in another.

8545. Do you think the men in Shetland, generally speaking, would be inclined to consent to a bargain of that sort? Would they not grumble very much if the price rose considerably before the end of the season?-It would only be parties who were dull of apprehension that would be likely to grumble. It would not be the intelligent men. For my part, and so far as my experience goes, I don't think a man of intelligence and experience would have a right to grumble in that case and I don't think he would do so. There are a great many I have spoken to, and reasoned the matter with, who, I don't think, would grumble.

8546. Do you think the fishermen, under such a system, would have the same advantage at the beginning of the season in making a bargain as the masters would have? Would the masters not be likely to know better what the market price was likely to be towards the end of the season, and thus be able to make a calculation as to the price more in their own favour?-The merchants ought, from their position, to have more information as to the probable state of the market, and, a rule, they do have more information; but I believe there are not a few masters of Faroe fishing vessels who could make as good a market, or nearly as good a market, as the curers could.

8547. You think they have all the information necessary to guide them in making a good bargain in the beginning of the season, or just as much as the curers have?-Yes. A curer would just be as likely to make a mistake in his arrangements as I would be. The market is so fluctuating that it is possible a curer may go and make a loss. He might possibly make an arrangement with another merchant to sell his fish at a certain fixed price, and there is a possibility of the fish rising after that, and of course I would stand the same chance.

8548. Do you say that in the English vessels the fish is salted before it is put on shore?-Yes.

8549. Is that the case in your smacks also?-Yes; we are always bound to do that. We could not keep the fish otherwise. When fishing on the coast of Faroe or Iceland, or elsewhere, we cannot help ourselves; we must salt them in order to save them.

8550. Is the salt put on board the vessel, and supplied by the fish-curer at starting?-Yes.

8551. You said you thought 50s. a ton was rather too high a charge for salting and curing: is that your opinion?-I am inclined to think so. I know the price of salt as well as the curers do. I have been in the habit of buying salt at Liverpool more than two or three times, and I know what I have paid for it, buying it with ready money. The last cargo of salt which I brought here cost 7s. per ton, when ready to leave Liverpool, and the freight here would be 10s. Then there would be 1s. per ton for landing, at least. Then there would be 2s. for wastage and they might take off 1s. or 2s. more for cellar rent. That would be 22s.

8552. Would that be the total cost of the salt delivered in Shetland?-It might vary; but that is what I paid for it the last time I bought a cargo.

8553. Do you think 22s. is a liberal calculation for it?-I think so. Then the people have to be paid for curing, that is, washing and drying the fish, and I think they generally pay at least 12s. per ton, or in some cases more, for that. I have never cured fish myself, but I have been told by curers that that is about the expense.

8554. That would be 12s. for the workpeople employed at the curing; but you would also require some allowance for implements and sheds and booths?-No doubt an allowance would require to be made for that too. In some cases a man may be curing fish where he has to provide a booth for himself, and he has to get covering from the fish-curer or merchant. That, however, would only be a trifle.,

8555. Would 3s. a ton be too much for that?-As rule, I think it would not.

8556. Would it be too little?-I think it would not be too little; I think it would fully meet it.

[Page 208]

8557. Would there be any other expense for the curing of the fish?-Not so far as the curing is concerned.

8558. You say the charge for curing is 50s.?-Yes. I have paid my share of it at that rate, and I have sometimes paid for it at the rate of 52s. 6d., but it has been less than 50s. in my experience. At one time it was 45s., but of late years it has never been less than 50s.

8559. The calculation which you have made comes so that you think the fish-curer makes a profit of 13s. per ton upon the curing: is that your opinion?-My opinion is just exactly as I have stated it. It is possible I may be wrong in some of the items, because in some cases the merchant may have to give the curer more. It may be a late season, or a wet season, and in order to get the fish dried and ready for market it is possible they might encourage the curer, by giving him 1s. or 2s. more.

8560. The expense might be more than 37s. a ton in some cases?-It might be.

8561. But you think that 37s. a ton is a fair enough calculation, so far as you can make it, for the usual expenses of salting and curing?-I think so.

8562. Do you think fishermen could cure for themselves upon a small scale?-It might not be easy to get a crew together which could do that, but I think it could be done. I do not see why the master of a Faroe fishing vessel could not get a man to cure his fish as well as another man. There are often beaches that he could get the use of for the time being, and I think it is quite possible they could get their fish cured, but there may be some difficulty about it. It might be that every person would not be able to do it.

8563. You do not know whether that has been tried?-I do not. For my own part, I never attempted it.

8564. Do you think the system of running accounts among the Faroe fishermen you have met with has led them to incur too large amounts of debt?-I am inclined to think so.

8565. Is that one of your reasons for wishing to have a price fixed at the beginning of the year?-That would be one of the special reasons, but it is not the whole reason. I have another reason for that, which is, that as the system exists now, if the merchant makes a good bargain or a good market for his fish, and the man he sells them to does not fail before the price is payable, the merchant never loses, because he never pays the price to us before then which he can afford to pay. He is always secure; but if he had a fixed price to pay for the fish; he might lose as quick as I would. That is my main reason for objecting to this system. I would like to have the thing altered so that there might be something like fair play, and that if I lose, I lose, and that if I gain, I gain. I am not saying that the merchant is not paying me a fair price now. He may be paying me all he can afford to pay, but I don't know that.

8566. But by the system you propose, the price might be lower than is sufficient for your labour?-I would have to take my chance of that. In my experience I have had to contend with three all but total failures at the fishing, and of course our labour and time went for almost nothing. But that was not the owner's blame; we could not help it, and no more could he.

8567. Is there any other plan for the payment of fish that has occurred to you? How would it do, for instance, if a certain part of the price per cwt. were arranged to be paid on delivery of the green fish, and that the rest, whatever it might be, should be paid at settlement according to the current price?-I could scarcely speak with regard to green fish, because my experience has been in salted fish, and I would only like to speak about that with which I have been myself more immediately connected. But speaking with regard to salted fish only, what you have suggested would be a far better way, because I would then have a chance of seeing my fish weighed out. I don't think the merchant has cheated me out of a ton or half a ton of fish, but I have not had the chance of seeing my fish weighed when I was there. Each vessel's catch is kept and cured separately; but when we come to deliver the fish, if we had a chance of seeing it weighed then, and got a certain figure for it, that would be exactly the way in which these Englishmen deal. They see their fish weighed, and they know what they are getting for each ton or each cwt. of it, and they have nothing more to expect. But we don't do that; we get the dried fish price.

8568. Do you know how much green fish makes a cwt. of dry?-I know that about 21/4 cwt. is the general rate allowed in the ling fishing for green fish, but if it is good fish it will not require so much as that I have helped to cure myself, but it may be as much as that with bad fish. As to salted fish, I could not say definitely what is the proportion.

8569. There is no such calculation required in the Faroe fishing?- No; it does not come so immediately under my notice. I never saw my fish weighed dry; I have seen them occasionally weighed wet, but not often.

8570. Are they occasionally weighed wet in the Faroe fishing?- Sometimes, not often. It is done perhaps on shore or on board, as it happens. Suppose we land them at a different station from what we intended, they are counted out and weighed when sold, and then the owner or fish-curer will know what they can turn out when dry. That is the reason why they are weighed.

8571. Then there must be a calculation made in that case?-There is, but I do not know exactly what it is.

8572. To go back to your calculation about the expense of curing fish, can you tell me how much salt is required to cure a ton of fish?-We generally reckon upon a ton of salt to a ton of dry fish. If the salt is well cared for it will do a little more but we generally reckon upon that as an average.

8573. Is the salt which the fish get all put on them before they are put on shore?-Yes; it is all put on. There is none put on afterwards, except it may be in the case of a few fish which are likely to give way, or when we get fish and have not enough salt, but that is a case of emergency and an exception-not the rule. As a rule, we cure our fish and put all the salt on them they require.

8574. Have you any knowledge of the system of payment in the ling fishing?-Only from what I have heard about it. I have been at it only once when I was a lad; and I cannot say much about it from experience.

8575. Do you think your neighbours are generally quite at liberty to deal with any merchant they please in the ling fishing?-I believe they are at perfect liberty so far as any man is concerned who could stand in a position like me, and be able to pay his way at any time; but I think a man who could not pay his way, and who was always in debt, would not be at liberty to go where he chose. I am not sure that even he would not be at liberty to use his own judgment, and deal where he liked; but I don't know that he would be looked well upon if he went to another. That is to say, if he was in debt £10 or £20 to a merchant, I don't think the merchant would look well upon it if the man went to another merchant to whom he owed nothing, and fished for him. At least that is what they have told me, and what I have known; but, of course, a man who can pay his way, and who is not bound to fish for a certain individual, can do as he likes. There are fishermen in other parts of the country who are bound to fish for their landowner or their factor, but that does not exist here.

8576. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I don't think there is anything about any matter with which I am immediately connected. We used to make a little Shetland cloth, but I could only corroborate the evidence that has been already given about that. I have never been under the necessity of selling it to a particular party, and I have got the money for it when I asked it. I don't know that the same price is always given in money as when it is taken in goods; but if I needed money, and asked for it, I always got it.

[Page 209]

8577. Then you have no objection to the practice which exists with regard to the hosiery trade?-No; I would not say anything about that.

8578. Have you any objection to what is done in the cloth trade?- It is the cloth trade I mean. Of course the knitting is a thing that I am not immediately connected with; there is not much done in that way with me. I know, however, that in some cases, although perhaps not in all, where women have been knitting hosiery, and they have got a certain price for an article, yet by buying tea or groceries, which are reckoned as money articles, they would have to pay more for them. They would have to pay 2d. or 11/2d. more upon a 1/4 lb. of tea, because it was being paid for by hosiery; but I think I would have preferred a different way of dealing with them. I think, if I had been in a position like that, I would have given them less for their hosiery, and sold the articles to them at a fixed price. It would just have come to the very same thing with the merchants.

8579. You think that would have been a wiser course for the merchants to take?-Yes. I remember on one occasion when I brought two or three articles of hosiery to a merchant, I got a certain sum put upon them; but when I got a little tea from him, he said he had to make the tea 2d. more per quarter, because it was paid for in hosiery. I said to him I would not deal in that way if I were him, but that I would give a little less for the hosiery, and I would charge a fixed price for my tea, or whatever other articles I was selling; but he said, 'We must all do that, because if I were to say that I would not give a woman so much for her hosiery, she would go to another merchant with it, and they would give her a higher price, and lay it on their goods;' which I have no doubt they do.

8580. Therefore you did not convince the hosiery merchant?-I convinced him so far, that I got my price. I would not pay the price he charged, and would have taken my article of hosiery back rather than pay it.

8581. Did that take place some years ago?-Yes; it is not less than six years ago.

Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS ROBERTSON, examined.

8582. Have you been a fisherman here all your life?-Not all my life; but I have been for a number of years.

8583. You hold a bit of ground at Weathersta?-Yes.

8584. Who do you fish for?-For Mr Adie, Voe.

8585. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes.

8586. Do you generally get some of your balance in cash?-Yes. If I have a balance to get I get it, but I always got money when I asked it, whether I had it to get or not.

8587. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the year?-Yes; whenever I ask it.

8588. Did you get that ten years ago if you asked for it?-I did.

8589. Was that the practice then?-Yes; but I never asked for money unless I required it.

8590. You wanted goods oftener?-Yes.

8591. How far is it from Voe to your place?-About three miles.

8592. Is Mr. Adie's the nearest shop to you?-No. Brae is nearer than Voe.

8593. But you dealt at Voe, because you were fishing for Mr. Adie?-I dealt some at Brae too; but mostly at Voe.

8594. Was that because you had an account there?-Yes.

8595. And it was more convenient for you sometimes to deal upon credit?-Yes.

8596. I suppose you would get a larger advance in goods at that shop than you would have got if you were to ask money?-I don't know; I only asked for goods when I was needing them.

8597. But if you had asked money with which to go and buy your goods elsewhere, would you have got it?-I cannot say, for I never asked it.

8598. Have you heard the evidence of Robertson and Wood, and the other fishermen who have been examined to-day?-Yes.

8599. Have you anything different to say from what they said about the system of dealing among the fishermen here?-No.

8600. Have you known fishermen changing from one employment to another?-I have.

8601. Have you done that yourself?-No.

8602. You have always fished for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

8603. What is the general reason for the men shifting?-I don't know. I suppose it is because they think they will be better.

8604. How are they better, when the same price is always paid at the end of the year by all the curers?-I cannot see where they can be better by shifting from one man to another; I never felt that I would be any better to do so.

8605. I understand all the merchants hereabout pay the same current price for fish?-Yes. Mr. Adie proposed a stated agreement to me for fishing herring. The herrings in Shetland then were 7s. a cran, and he agreed that he would give us 8s. a cran; but we have only got 8s. a cran for two years. The price varies with the agreement in each year; sometimes we get 13s. a cran, sometimes 10s., and sometimes 12s.-just up and down.

8606. Do you generally go to the herring fishing every year?-Yes.

8607. At what season of the year do you go?-August and September; after we are done with the ling fishing.

8608. And the bargain for the herring fishing is that you are to get so much a cran?-Yes; that was the agreement we had with Mr. Adie when we took our nets.

8609. Do you hire nets from him for that fishing?-No, we buy them, and they are put into our accounts.

8610. Have you paid off the price of these nets now?-Yes.

8611. How long did it take you to pay them?-I could not say exactly, but I think it took us between 8 and 9 years to pay for them all, because we had lean fishings.

8612. You mean that the herring fishing was poor?-Yes.

8613. Did you get them paid off at last?-Yes.

8614. Is the price for the herrings paid down whenever you deliver them?-No.

8615. Do you keep an account for the herring fishing separate from the account for the ling fishing?-Yes.

8616. Do you get goods to the other side of that account too?-No; they are all in the same account.

8617. Your goods are kept in an account at Voe?-Yes.

8618. And the price of the herrings is entered to your credit when you settle?-Yes.

8619. Do you keep a pass-book?-Yes.

8620. Have you got it now?-No; I don't have it, because we think there is no use keeping it after the end of the season. Once we find the pass-book to be correct, we think it is of no farther use, and when I brought it home I suppose the bairns tore it up.

8621. When you square up your account at the end of the year, do you go and look at all the items in Mr. Adie's book?-Yes.

8622. Are they read over to you?-Yes; I compare them with the items in my book, and I see that they are all correct.

8623. Is it mostly goods or cash that you get in the course of the year?-It is goods for the most part but I get a good part of cash too.

[Page 210]

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN RATTER, examined.

8624. You are a fisherman at Weathersta?-Yes.

8625. Do you fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.

8626. Have you heard what Thomas Robertson has said?-Yes.

8627. Does it all apply to your case as well as his?-Exactly.

8628. How long have you fished for Mr. Adie?-Six years.

8629. Where did you fish before?-I did not fish for any one before, except going for a fee to the ling fishing.

8630. Do you go to the herring fishing also?-Yes.

8631. And you are paid for it in the same way as Robertson?- Yes.

8632. You get a fixed price for the herring?-Yes.

8633. Have you anything to add to what he has said?-No.

Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled.

8634. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I forgot that I had my pass-book with Mr. Adie for this year with me. It shows the goods I am getting now. [Produces book.]

8635. I thought you were getting your goods at cash price now?- Yes; I had a promise of them at cash price.

8636. I see there is tea, 5d.?-That is for 2 oz. of tea.

8637. Then you are not getting them for cash price yet?-I have no doubt that when I settle with Mr. Adie he will square that up. I have his promise for it, and I have no doubt that he will do it. I wish further to say, that this truck system or compulsory barter is a great cause of pauperism, as it makes the poor careless and the rich fearless; because, should the head of the family die, the creditor will probably take the effects left, and consequently leave the widow and fatherless children, if any, on the parish. Another thing is, that when the merchants have it in their power to price both their goods and mine, they clearly see that I must sell, and off it must go at whatever they say is the value, and I must take their goods at the value they are pleased to put upon them, and I-if I am in debt-dare not grumble.

8638. What goods have you had to sell upon which they have put their own price?-For one thing, I have been a carrier of hosiery to different places.

8639. Who have you carried hosiery for?-Perhaps for my wife or others, and the value of the stockings was made to be 10d., or 8d., or 7d. If I took tea, and the value of the stockings was 10d., I could only get 9d. worth. If I took cotton goods I would get the full value, but not if I took tea. Then, if under this system a man gets into debt, it is more in appearance than in reality; and should that man ask money from the apparent creditor, the old account will be shaken at him as a scarecrow, and he is generally told to pay his credit and transfer his custom, and that consequently nails him to the old plan. As to the difference in the price of meal, what deceived me in that line was, that I and others were often told that they only charged 2s. per sack as a commission, which would have been £10 per 100 sacks; but at last, when I wrote to some of the meal dealers in the south, I found it was more like £50 per 100 sacks-that is 10s. per sack instead of 2s.

Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE, examined.

8640. You are a son of Mr. T.M. Adie, who has been already examined?-I am. I am a partner of the business carried on at Voe, although it is carried on in my father's name. I have been a partner for seven or eight years.

8641. Are you aware of any arrangement existing between Messrs. Adie, Anderson, and Inkster, to this effect, that when a fisherman who is in debt to one of these curers goes to another, the new employer undertakes the debt incurred to the former employer?- There was an arrangement of that sort entered into.

8642. Has it been acted upon to a certain extent?-Yes; I think it has been pretty well carried out.

8643. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes; I think the original document is in our possession. I will send it to you.* A principal object or inducement for having that document drawn up was, that a great many of our fishermen were in the habit of settling at the end of the season, and getting advances for rent, or of goods, on the understanding that they were to fish, or go in a boat of ours to the fishing, in the following season; and then they left and went to Mr. Anderson, and took similar advances from him.

8644. Did you find that a man who got into arrears in your books, and to whom you were obliged to refuse supplies on account of his debt being too large, was apt to go to another merchant and engage with him for the following season?-In some cases perhaps they did so, but not as a rule.

8645. But did you not find that when a man's debt got so large that you had to refuse him supplies, and he was not likely to pay it, he went away to another merchant instead of continuing to fish for you?-Sometimes; but most of the men, when they are in debt in that way, save as much as possible, and keep under expenses, in order to assist in getting the debt cleared off.

8646. You see when a man is trying to keep down expenses, and you help him as far as possible?-Yes.

8647. Do you remember of one William Inkster leaving you in that way a good many years ago?-Yes.

8648. And Mr. Anderson paid the whole of his debt to you under that agreement?-Yes; Mr. Anderson paid his debt.

8649. Have other cases occurred of a similar kind?-Yes; I think we have paid Mr. Anderson some accounts for some of his men, and he has paid us.

8650. Is it the full debt that is paid in these cases, or only a proportion of it, or do you make a compromise?-Sometimes we make a compromise.

8651. Was there any understanding when you took the lease of your premises at Voe, that no shop should be permitted on the Busta estate near you?-I cannot speak positively on that matter. I don't know the terms of the lease exactly. I think there was a stipulation in the last lease, with regard to the pasture ground, that no business should be carried on upon it.

8652. Do you mean no fish-curing business?-No shop. There was a talk at one time of having a [Page 211] public-house put up there; and I think it was with reference to that that the stipulation was put in. That was in the lease of the park or enclosed property.

8653. Has your firm a grocer's licence?-Yes.

8654. I understand there is no public-house in the neighbourhood?-No; we have a spirit licence.

8655. Have you a public-house licence as well?-Yes.

8656. That business is carried on, of course, in different premises from your other business?-No; they are carried on in the same premises.

8657. Is there not a different door to the place where you sell the spirits?-No; we are quite at liberty to sell spirits there, but not to consume them on the premises.

8658. Then you have no licence at all to consume on the premises?-No.

8659. And the licence you have is not a public house licence?- No.

8660. You have been present to-day and heard the evidence: is there any observation you wish to make upon it?-I don't know that there is. I think most of the things which have been referred to were explained by my father. There is something, however, with reference to the curing of the fish which I may refer to. That matter has scarcely been gone into as it should have been. For instance, it has been stated that a ton of salt will cure a ton of fish in one of the Faroe vessels, but it never does so. At one time, I believe, it would have cured a ton of fish, but there is a fearful extravagance and waste of salt going on in these vessels now. There are tons of salt which are wasted among ballast, and in other ways, so that we never turn out a ton of dry fish for a ton of salt.

8661. You heard the calculation made by Blanch on that subject?-Yes. Salt costs us a great deal more than he mentioned; we don't have salt in our cellars under 27s. or 27s. 6d., and there is the cost of shipping again into the vessels and wastage.

8662. He allowed 2s. a ton for waste?-Yes, in landing, but not in shipping; 2s. a ton will not cover the waste both in landing and shipping; and then the cost of labour is very much higher than it used to be.

8663. Is 12s. a ton an insufficient allowance for labour?-It is.

8664. Have you made a calculation of that at any time for the purposes of your business?-We can scarcely get an accurate calculation made, but I am certain it is more than he stated. There are different parcels of fish landed from different vessels to be cured, and we cannot keep an accurate account of the time expended on each parcel.

8665. But take a single ton of fish: is 12s. more than the ordinary cost of curing it?-No; it is considerably less than the cost. I am perfectly certain of that.

8666. Is 50s. per ton, the ordinary deduction charged off fishermen for the Faroe fishing, very much above the actual cost?-I don't think it is 6d. over the actual cost.

8667. Does that include anything for superintendence?-Of course, it includes the allowance for our utensils, and the cost of beaches and superintendence. Then Blanch said there was a deduction of 5 per cent, but it is not 5 per cent. that is deducted. There is generally £1 per ton deducted for expenses in realizing the fish and storage, and so on.

8668. Is that £1 per ton on the cured fish?-Yes; that is known all over the country to be the ordinary rate of charge.

8669. That comes to nearly 5 per cent.?-Yes; sometimes it is a little more than 5 per cent, and sometimes it is not so much.

8670. Are these all the deductions that are made before the division of the proceeds of the cured fish?-Yes; there is the curing, and the master and the mate's extra, and the score-money.

8671. What is score-money?-The men are paid so much for each score of fish they individually draw.

8672. That is to say, each man counts the fish which he gets with his own lines?-Yes, and he gets 6d. a score for them.

8673. That is a sort of premium upon industry?-Yes; that is deducted from the gross, and paid to the individual fisherman.

8674. Is there any other deduction in favour of either the merchant or the men?-I am not aware of any. There are some payments for bait which are deducted too. That is charged against the vessel's fishing, and deducted from the gross.

8675. Is there any expense for lines, or do the men furnish their own lines?-The men furnish their lines in the Faroe fishing.

8676. Is the price of these lines charged against the fishing, or against the men individually?-Against the men individually. Each man gets his own lines, and they are charged in his individual account. There is a stock of lines generally kept by the master on board the vessel, and they are supplied by him to the men on board.

8677. These stores on board the vessel go to the individual account of the men?-Yes, stores of all kinds. We supply them with 8 lbs. of bread per man per week, and they find their own small stores.

8678. These they generally purchase in your shop?-Yes.

8679. And they are put to their account?-Yes.

* The agreement referred to was afterwards sent in, and was in the following terms:-'We, Gideon Anderson, of Ollaberry; John Anderson, Hillswick; James Inkster, Brae; and Thomas M. Adie, Voe; considering the very disastrous consequences likely to ensue to ourselves, and ultimately to our fishermen, from the reckless system of giving them advances which has been for some time practised, and knowing that such system is farther followed from the fact that if any of us refused their demands, however absurd, they turned to another, who gave them what they wanted; we have resolved to do away with such in future, so that each of us may be able to exercise his own judgment as to the propriety of what advances he may make to his fishermen;' and the parties agreed and bound themselves, so long as they continued as fishcurers in the same localities, 'not to tamper with or engage each other's fishermen, or allow our boat-skippers or men to do so, or to make advances of rents to them on their cattle, sheep, or ponies, or under any circumstances whatever, unless they produce a certificate from any of us whom they last fished for, to the effect that he is clear of debt and all other obligations existing therefrom, or in connection with the fishing,' under a penalty of £5, to be paid to the poor of the parish.

In a letter with reference to this agreement Mr. T. M. Adie says:- 'The only way in which it has ever had to be acted on is, that occasionally some man would like to be in a boat more convenient for him, when any of us whom he had fished for gave him a note stating that he was under no obligation, or if he was due a balance, the curer he went to paid it for him. On some occasions we had found that a worthless fellow would get what he actually needed advanced to him, and then, if any fancied want was not supplied, he would leave the boat, and the rest of the crew lost their fishing for want of a man in his stead, and it tended to keep down advances in goods so that men had, more money to get.'

Brae, January 13, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.

8680. Where do you live?-In North Delting.

8681. Are you a fisherman?-I am.

8682. Who do you fish for?-Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.

8683. How far do you live from Mossbank?-About a mile.

8684. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Five years.

8685. Do you keep an account at the Mossbank shop?-Yes.

8686. Do you make a settlement at the end of the year?-Yes.

8687. Do you get any money at settlement?-Yes, I get my rent.

8688. Who do you pay your rent to?-Mr. John Robertson. I live on the Lunna estate; Sheriff Bell is the proprietor.

8689. Do you get any more money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., besides your rent?-No more money, as I don't have it to get.

8690. Is that because you are in debt?-Yes.

8691. How far are you behind?-I was behind £3 at the last settlement, but I have been as much behind as £13.

8692. Are you always behind in your accounts?-Yes.

8693. And you always go to fish for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., in the hope of paying them off?-Yes.

8694. Are you at liberty to fish for any other merchant?-No.

8695. Why?-Because I am in debt, and I cannot pay my debt, therefore I am obliged to fish for Mr. Pole.

8696. If you were to go to fish for another merchant and get paid by him in money, could you not pay off your debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I might, but I don't see what good that would do. I get the same price for my fish from Mr. Pole as I would get from any other body.

8697. But don't you think you run up a bigger account when you are dealing with Pole, Hoseason, & Co., than you would do if you were getting your cash in hand?-Yes; if I had cash to purchase my meal, which is the principal thing I require, I would get it cheaper elsewhere.

8698. What is the price of meal at Mossbank just now?-I cannot say rightly.

[Page 212]

8699. When did you know last? Have you made your settlement this year?-Yes.

8700. Don't you know what you were charged for meal then?- No.

8701. Do you ask the price of your meal as you buy it?- Sometimes; but we must take it, whatever it is, because we have no money to purchase it with elsewhere.

8702. Whose fault is that?-I don't know.

8703. Is it the merchant's fault?-I cannot say that is.

8704. Do you think Messrs. Pole Hoseason, & Co. charge too high for their goods?-Yes; if we had money we could get them cheaper in Lerwick.

8705. But I suppose you would have money if you could save as much as would keep you for one year?-Yes.

8706. If you could manage that, you would not run into the merchant's debt at all, but you would have all your cash to get at settlement?-Yes, if we had as much as would once clear us off.

8707. Can you not manage to do that?-No. I have a small family, and there is a great quantity of bread to buy, and clothes and everything. I have nothing but what I can earn by the fishing.

8708. What kind of bread do you buy?-Oatmeal and flour.

8709. Are there many men who are in debt at Mossbank in the same way as you?-I believe there are a few, but I cannot say.

8710. Do you want to go to fish for any other merchant?-No; I don't see any good that that would do to me.

8711. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing.

8712. Was there anything else you wanted to say when you came here?-No.

Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, recalled.

8713. Do you wish to add anything to your former evidence?- About the cost of fish-curing, I said I was not speaking exactly from my own experience with regard to the sum paid, but I know that we have never used more than a ton of salt to a ton of fish on the average. I wish also to say that I have been told more than once by parties who have cured fish for Mr. Adie and others, that they only paid 12s. per ton of fish for the labour of curing. I also say that I have paid 1s. for landing salt at Lerwick, and nothing more, and I allow 2s. for wastage. These are things which Mr. William Adie thought I had no doubt exaggerated, but I am conscious of the fact that I told nothing but the truth.

8714. Was 12s. per ton a price which was paid under contract?- Yes.

8715. Who are the parties who told you about that?-Arthur Harrison was the last one I spoke to. I landed fish to be cured by him, and he told me so. There was another man who told me the same thing about five years ago, John Henry, Sandsting, in Walls. With regard to the price paid for lines, I wish also to say that we have to furnish our own lines in the Faroe fishing. You were asking me if I thought there was a possibility of our bettering ourselves. I thought there was, and that was one of the ways in which I thought we might do so. I have always thought that the owner, when he provided a vessel, ought also to provide the material for the catching of the fish; but instead of that we have to provide our own lines, and supply other lines if we happen to lose them, at a very dear price. We 21/2 lines for each man, and we pay 2s. 6d. for what I know the merchants buy at 2s. or 1s. 6d.

8716. Could you not buy your lines at another shop if you chose?-Yes; we could do that.

8717. Is it part of the arrangement that you are to take these lines from the owner of the vessel?-I don't know that it is part of the arrangement, but I don't think they would like it very well if we went to another; still I don't know that we would be prevented.

8718. Do not the men sometimes hire the lines?-No; never in my experience in the Faroe fishing.

Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN NICHOLSON, examined.

8719. Where do you come from?-North Delting.

8720. Who do you fish for?-Messrs Pole, Hoseason, & Co.

8721. Have you heard the evidence of Charles Nicholson?-Yes; and I would like to say about the price of our fish, that I don't think it is very right that the men should have to go to the fishing at the beginning of the season, and don't know what they are to get until they come to settle.

8722. Do you think you ought to have your price fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.

8723. Have you ever asked for that?-No; we have never asked for it.

8724. Why?-Because some of the crew are for it and others are against it, and we could not get the thing rightly settled up amongst ourselves.

8725. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co?-I have fished there for about fourteen years, both before and after Mr. Pole came to Mossbank.

8726. Where do you buy your goods?-From Mr. Pole.

8727. Anywhere else?-No.

8728. Do you never go to any other shop in the neighbourhood?- Not very often.

8729. Why is that?-Because sometimes I don't have ready money to go with.

8730. If you had ready money would you go anywhere else?-Yes.

8731. Why?-Because I could get my goods cheaper and better.

8732. Are you not satisfied with the quality of the goods at the Mossbank shop?-No. There are some of the articles there which are inferior to other people's, and dearer too.

8733. What articles are inferior?-Tea and sugar and meal.

8734. Where could you get them better?-In Lerwick.

8735. That is a long way to go for them?-Yes; but a man must take some trouble upon himself when he gets them cheaper and better.

8736. What are you paying at Mossbank store for these things just now?-Tea is 3s. per lb., sugar is 5d., and meal is 50s.

8737. When did you buy any of these three articles in Lerwick?- About a month ago.

8738. What did you get them for?-I got tea for 2s. 4d., sugar for 4d., and meal for 32s.

8739. What is the price of meal now?- About 48s. but it was 50s. in summer, and I bought a sack, or two bolls, at 32s. in Lerwick.

8740. What quantity of meal did you buy at Mossbank last, for which you paid 48s.?-I got it out in lesser quantities. They don't like to give very much at one time, and I had to take it in less quantities than I could get it in Lerwick.

8741. Were you in debt to the shop at the time?-A little; not very much.

8742. And they would not give it to you because you were in debt?-No.

8743. Was it by the lispund you bought it at Mossbank?-Yes; I paid 5s. 8d. per lispund for it, but about the end of July it was 6s. We generally take it by the quarter boll there.

8744. There are 32 lbs. to the lispund, and 280 lbs. in the sack?- Yes.

8745. Was the quality of the articles you bought in Lerwick, at the price you have mentioned, as good as what you got at Mossbank at the prices which [Page 213] say are charged there?-If there was any difference, they were better.

8746. But you had to carry them to Mossbank?-I had. The meal came by the steamer, and I had to pay 8d. for that.

8747. Can you not get cash from Pole, Hoseason, Co. when you require it, and go and buy your supplies in Lerwick?-Yes; what I require for the fishing, but not otherwise.

8748. You cannot get what you require for your family?-No.

8749. How did you happen to have money when you went and bought the meal in Lerwick?-I had it from my small boat fishing in the winter, and I saved the money.

Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE (recalled), examined.

8750. Is there anything further in what Blanch has said to which you wish to refer?-Yes; he said that 12s. was the contract price for curing our fish: that is false. We paid 13s. for curing fish at Urrafirth, by Arthur Harrison.

8751. Was that your contract price for the fish cured by him this year?-He has cured none for us this year. He only cured a few fish for us in the fall, and he got more than that for them.

8752. Then that was the contract price in 1870?-Yes, for curing alone. Then we had to pay 3s. a ton for landing and shipping these fish from Voe to Urrafirth, and 3s. to Voe again; so that the curing of the fish would cost us about £1.

8753. Why do you pay so heavy freights? Can you not have the fish landed at Urrafirth in the first place?-No. We send them there as a convenience for ourselves, but the men are bound to land them at Voe, and we have to remove them at our own expense. We have no storage at Urrafirth for them, and they have to be removed to our own stores again.

8754. Why do you carry your fish to Urrafirth to be cured?- Because we have not sufficient accommodation for them all at Voe when we have a large take of fish.

8755. Then you have to send your surplus fish all that way to be cured?-Yes.

8756. Does it not arise in that way that you have a loss upon these fish?-Yes, we have a loss upon the fish when we cure them by contract.

8757. These fish will cost you more than 50s. for curing?-Yes, they cost us considerably more.

8758. But that will be recouped by your other profit?-Yes; but of course we must pay that extra out of our own pockets.

8759. But it does not follow that you have a loss upon the total proceeds of the fish?-No, we would not need to have that.

8760. The profit you calculate upon obtaining from the sale of your fish is sufficient to cover an occasional loss of that sort, and is calculated accordingly?- Yes. Of course, the extra charge on the curing at Urrafirth won't come to nearly the £1 per ton which we have for storage and commission on the fish.

8761. Is there any one else who wishes to be examined?- [No answer.] Then I adjourn the inquiry here until further notice.

[<Adjourned.>]

Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES GARRIOCH, examined.

8762. You are shopkeeper to Messrs. Hay & Co. at their shop in the island of Fetlar?-I am.

8763. How long have you been there?-Three years past on 1st December. Before that I was a store-keeper with them in Lerwick.

8764. Was that establishment in Lerwick the one from which both Faroe fishers and home fishers got their supplies for the season, and their outfit for the fishing?-Yes; and Messrs. Hay's country shops were also supplied from that shop for the most part.

8765. I understand the supplies for the country shops are sent down to you with invoices of the prices at which you are to sell them?-That is done with some shops belonging to Messrs. Hay, but with others it is not. To some of them the goods are sent down at cost price, and the shopkeeper fixes what prices he thinks right. That is what is done at Fetlar.

8766. I see from the books you have produced, that on September 25 oatmeal was 5s. 3d.: is that per lispund?-That is for a quarter-boll.

8767. Do you not sell by the lispund?-Sometimes we do, just as the parties want it.

8768. A quarter-boll would be 3 lbs. more than a lispund?-Yes.

8769. And 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll would be for 35 lbs.?-Yes.

8770. Have you the invoice showing at what price that was invoiced to you from Lerwick?-I have not.

8771. Do you remember how much it was invoiced at?-No. It was not a fixed thing for the whole season; it varies.

8772. When did you get your supplies of meal last summer?-It comes from Aberdeen almost weekly or fortnightly during the time the fishing continues.

8773. You do not sell much meal in Fetlar after the fishing is over?-No; the people then have their crops to depend upon.

8774. When do you begin to sell the greatest quantity of goods at your store?-About April; we begin to be much busier then. From September until April the people are depending for the most part upon their own crop, but sometimes they do take a little meal from us.

8775. Was 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll the selling price for meal during the whole season?-No; it differs greatly. Sometimes you will see it is more, and sometimes less.

8776. I see that it is 5s. 3d. in September, and 5s. 9d. in July?- Yes; I expect that would be about the dearest time.

8777. I see an entry of oatmeal, 22s. 8d., in August?-That would be for a boll.

8778. Do you sell a boll at the same price, proportionally, as a quarter-boll?-Just the same.

8779. You do not make a difference for the retail?-None whatever.

8780. Do Messrs. Hay hold Fetlar, or any part of it, under tack?- Not so far as I am aware.

8781. Are the fishermen there bound to fish for them in any way?-I don't think they are; at least not to my knowledge. They have tenants there; at least they are not tenants exactly, but Messrs. Hay are factors for the Earl of Zetland. I don't know how Lord Zetland's tenants do, but I don't think they are bound.

8782. At any rate they are not bound by their tacks in any way?- Not so far as I am aware,

[Page 214]

8783. Is it mostly Lord Zetland's tenants who fish for Messrs. Hay in Fetlar?-I think not.

8784. Do some of Lady Nicholson's tenants fish for them also?- Yes; I should think about half-and-half.

8785. Are there any other proprietors in Fetlar than Lord Zetland and Lady Nicholson?-Not for the fishermen. There are other proprietors in the island, but none of their tenants fish.

8786. I see here, under date June 1, 1871, an entry against George Gaunson, 'Cash for penalty per current account, £4, 2s. 2d.:' what does that mean?-He was summoned to court for some wrecked timber that he was in possession of, and that was his penalty, which was paid by me for him.

8787. You entered that to his debit?-Yes. What meant by 'current account' is, that I paid the money at Lerwick, and it was charged to me at current account, and I gave Hay & Co. credit for it in my book at Fetlar.

8788. How many tons of dry fish did you sell from Fetlar last year?-We sold the following quantities for 1871:

Tons. Cwt. Qrs. Lbs. Ling, 32 2 3 11 Tusk, 5 2 1 22 Cod, 3 16 3 17 Saith, 0 18 2 15

8789. Had you only ten boats' crews fishing for you last season?- There were eleven boats.

8790. Did they contain sixty-six men, or were some of them smaller boats?-Some of them were smaller boats, with only five men. For instance, in Laurence Donaldson's boat, although there were only six men, there were five shares, because two boys count for a share.

8791. How many women and boys had you employed in curing at Fetlar?-We had eight men and boys-no women.

8792. Have the beach boys got accounts in the ledger also?-Yes. They are all in one place. [Shows.]

8793. The first is Laurence Brown. His fee was 10s., and, after debiting his out-takes, he received 7s. 31/2d. in cash in full?-Yes.

8794. The next is John Sinclair, jun.; after debiting his out-takes, he received 8s. 4d. in cash?-Yes.

8795. The next is John Coutts, who received 9s. 6d.?-Yes.

8796. The next is James Laurenson; his fee was only 5s., and he received 14s. 11/2d. in cash?-Yes.

8797. The next is Arthur James Tulloch; his fee was 16s., and he received 6s. 21/2d.?-Yes; he was only employed during part of the season. I think I had eight besides him.

8798. The next is Peter Sinclair; he had a fee of 10s., and, after deducting his out-takes, he received 6d. in cash in full, but he had received 19s. 6d. in cash during the season?-Yes.

8799. The next is George Laurenson; his fee was £4 and he received £1, 14s. 6d. in cash at settlement, and sundry small sums in cash have been paid to him in the course of the year?- Yes. He was a young lad, about sixteen years of age, I think.

8800. The next is Robert Johnston; his fee was 15s., and he received 7s. 1d. in cash at settlement, having received 5s. 4d. in cash during the season?-Yes.

8801. The next is George Donaldson; his fee was 10s. and he received 9s. 1d. in cash at settlement?-Yes.

8802. He seems to have got a number of loaves and biscuit?-Yes. His supplies were almost entirely for food.

8803. There are also the accounts of two men here; one of them is Magnus Brown. Is he one of your principal curers?-Yes.

8804. His fee, called beach-fee was £8, 5s., and he received 17s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement?-Yes. He received £1 at the commencement, and the next entry is 6s. 9d. paid for purchase at sale. That was purchase at a sale of wreck, which was paid for him by me, and was the same as cash. Including that purchase at the sale, he received about 30s. in cash in the course of the season.

8805. The next is Arthur N. Henderson: was the other beach-man?-Yes.

8806. His fee was £5; he received £1, 6s. 3d. in cash at settlement, and 4s. 6d. was paid to him during the season?-Yes.

8807. Were these all your beach people?-Yes.

8808. Why are they not paid weekly wages?-They could have it in that way if they wanted it. It would be all the same to us; I don't see any difference.

8809. Why do they not want it?-I don't think there is any particular reason, except that they don't wish it in that way.

8810. Do you think they would rather have it settled for at the end of the year?-I think so.

8811. Are not the people that Messrs. Hay employ in the curing at Lerwick paid weekly wages?-Yes.

8812. But at all the stations, I suppose, they are paid by beach fees?-Yes; and these are paid at the end of the year.

8813. The books which you keep at Fetlar are, first, the wet fish book, in which each boat's crew has the amount of each delivery of fish entered?-Yes.

8814. Then you have another fish book showing the amount of dry fish shipped by your different vessels?-Yes; that book [showing] is for the season of 1871.

8815. Do you begin to ship so early as June?-Yes. The men generally catch a few fish in winter now, and these are shipped first. The wet fish that are caught in winter are not in the book I have brought.

8816. Have you a separate book for your winter fish?-Yes.

8817. What quantity of winter fish do you generally sell?-I cannot say exactly; but for about two years I have had only about 2 or 21/2 tons of dry fish. They are cured along with the first fish caught in the spring, and sent down.

8818. Then the shipment on June 6th of 4 tons 7 cwt. of ling will include some summer fish as well?-Yes, spring fish.

8819. The only other book you keep is the ledger?-Yes, and the goods account book-a book for the goods and the expenses on the fish-curing.

8820. How do you keep your goods account book?-I enter every invoice as it comes from Lerwick, and against them I enter my returns.

8821. All your sales of goods are entered under the names of the parties to whom they are sold?-Yes.

8822. And that is the only entry of sales you make?-Yes. We don't enter what we get ready money for.

8823. You do not keep a waste day-book?-No.

8824. How do you balance the accounts with your fishermen?- The ledger will show.

8825. Is that done by you, or by some one from, Lerwick?- Always by some one from Lerwick.

8826. How long does it generally take to get all your fishermen settled with?-Not long; I think about three days.

8827. Some one comes from Lerwick, and the fishermen come to the office and are settled with in his presence and in yours?-Yes.

8828. Are the accounts read over to the men, or do they generally have a pass-book?-They are generally read over. Some carry a pass-book, and some do not.

8829. Are they always read over?-I don't think they are always read over. Generally I read them, over before the men come up to settle, so as to have them added up and ready.

8830. The ledger is written up from day to day as the goods are taken out?-Yes, perhaps twice or thrice, in a day.

8831. And the fisherman signs at settlement?-Yes.

8832. He signs also when there is a balance against him, which sometimes happens?-Yes.

8833. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a spirit licence for the sale of whisky?-No.

8834. Do you not sell whisky at till?-No, not unless a man asks me to order it for him; and that [Page 215] goes into the current account at Lerwick, and is a separate thing altogether from the ordinary dealings.

8835. Is there no public-house in the island?-None.

8836. Do you buy hosiery at the store in Fetlar?-None.

8837. Are there any entries in this book [showing] relating to the purchase of kelp?-The parties who work the kelp have accounts in the book, and the kelp is credited to them there.

8838. How many people are employed gathering kelp in Fetlar?- There is no one regularly employed, only those who are ready to make it.

8839. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a tack of the kelp shores?-No; it is done by any one who wishes to make it.

8840. And the entries are made to the credit of the women who gather it and burn it?-Yes.

8841. From how many of them have you made purchases during last year?-Only from about half a dozen. I have only purchased about 28 cwt. of it.

8842. What is the price paid for it?-4s. 6d. a cwt.

8843. Is that generally taken out in goods?-No.

8844. Do you pay 4s. 6d. when it is paid in cash?-Just the same; I make no difference.

8845. Do you not have two prices for it as they have in some places?-No; it is all the same to me whether they take money or goods. I should like them to take the goods, no doubt, but I don't compel them.

8846. In Robina Fraser's account I see that she has got more money than she has given kelp for: why was that?-She made a promise to work more, but she has not done it yet.

8847. Have you ever tried to send out a number of men to the winter fishing in large boats from Fetlar?-No.

8848. Do you consider that would be impracticable?-I think so. The coast is rather tempestuous, with heavy tides, and I don't think they would make anything of it.

8849. Do you purchase cattle and other farm stock for Messrs. Hay?-I purchase fat cattle at Martinmas, but only from the people privately. I bought eleven last Martinmas.

8850. Are these generally credited to the sellers in the ledger, or are they paid for in cash?-They are paid for in cash at the time when the cattle are taken away.

8851. Do any of these purchases appear in the ledger?-No.

8852. Are the rents on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar collected by you?-No, they are generally collected by the man who comes up to settle with the fishermen.

8853. Are separate receipts given for them?-Yes.

8854. Does he also settle for the cattle?-No, I generally settle for the cattle myself.

8855. So that the cattle do not enter the rent account?-Sometimes they do. Sometimes they wish me to send on the amount to Hay & Co, to be credited in the next account.

8856. Of the eleven cattle which you purchased last year, would some be settled for in that way?-Yes. I cannot say how many, but I think four.

8857. You have no books showing that?-None here.

8858. They will be in the possession of Messrs. Hay; or have you a cattle-book?-No; I don't have one.

8859. Do the purchases of cattle pass through your current account with Hay & Co.?-Yes.

8860. Have you a private account of your own?-My account is in the ledger, but we have a current account besides that. That current account contains whatever comes from Lerwick, charged at the Lerwick retail prices, and then all my returns of money or anything are put to the current account.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE GAUNSON, examined.

8861. You are a fisherman in Fetlar, and a tenant on Lord Zetland's property?-I am.

8862. Are you at liberty to fish for any one you please?-I don't know; we get as good a price from Messrs. Hay as we would get from any one else, and we fish for them.

8863. Is there any one else on the island who would buy your fish?-There is only one man on the east side, Jerome Brown, who takes a little besides Messrs. Hay's people.

8864. But you don't know whether you are at liberty to fish for Brown or not?-I don't know.

8865. Did you make any arrangement about fishing when you took your land?-I did not.

8866. How long have you held it?-I think I have been 28 or 30 years in the island.

8867. Have you fished every year during that period?-Sometimes I fished, and sometimes I was at sea.

8868. But when you have been at home you have always fished, and sold your fish to Messrs. Hay at the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.

8869. Have you generally found that you had balance in your favour at the end of the season?-Yes, very often; but it did not matter, because when I wanted anything, whether money or goods or meal, I always got it. Very often we had no money for the house, but we always got supplies from them.

8870. Where do you sell your cattle and your eggs, and other farm stock?-We sell them just wherever we can get any person to buy them. There are cattle dealers and other persons who come about buying them.

8871. Do you sell oftener to them or to Messrs. Hay?-It makes very little difference; when we have any cattle to sell, whenever any one comes round he gets them.

8872. Did you ever sell a beast to anybody but Messrs. Hay?- Yes; many a time. I have sold some horses to lots of people who were going about. I have sold some to Mr. Thomas Williamson, in Yell. I think he got the last one I sold; it was in February. It was a little horse.

8873. Who have you sold your cattle to?-Sometimes to Messrs. Hay's people, and sometimes to any other people who came round asking for them.

8874. Did you ever sell them to anybody except Messrs. Hay?-I have.

8875. When?-Some time before this.

8876. How long ago?-Last year I had none but the horse.

8877. Do you sell one or two beasts every year?-No; some years I sell none at all, and some years only one.

8878. Where do you sell your eggs?-Just anywhere that we can get the best price for them.

8879. Do you sell them generally to Messrs. Hay?-No; sometimes not.

8880. Is there anybody else in Fetlar who buys eggs?-Yes; Mr. William Tulloch buys some.

8881. Has he a small shop?-It is not a great deal of a shop that he has. He deals in cottons and such as that, and he buys eggs. I get 6d. a dozen for them sometimes, and sometimes perhaps 7d.

8882. Did you sell most of your eggs last year to Mr. Tulloch or to Mr. Garrioch?-I could not say. I don't deal much in that way myself.

8883. You leave that to your wife?-Yes.

8884. Do you always get your supplies from Hay Co.?-Yes. I never deal with Tulloch or Brown, and there is no other shop in the island that is worth going into.

8885. But are there any other shops at all except Tulloch's and Brown's?-I daresay some woman would sell some things sometimes, but they would not be of any account.

8886. Do you know where Tulloch and Brown, and that woman you speak of, get the goods they sell don't know.

[Page 216]

8887. Do you generally get a good quality of stuff from Hay & Co., at a fair price?-Yes; they are very fair prices.

8888. Have you ever got goods at Lerwick?-Yes.

8889. Do you find the goods supplied at Hay & Co.'s shop in Fetlar to be as good and as cheap its those you get in Lerwick?- Yes; I have no reason to complain about that.

8890. What was the price of meal that you have been buying lately?-It is much the same as we get it at in Lerwick; sometimes it little higher and sometimes a little cheaper. I think last season it was generally about 20s. per boll for oatmeal; but I don't remember about that particularly.

8891. Do you have to keep up your own houses and your own fences?-Yes; the house I am living in was built when I came to it, and it is the same yet; we have to keep it in good order.

8892. The landlord does not do that for you?-I don't know; but the last time something was done to the house it was put down to Lord Zetland's account.

8893. Are most of the tenants on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar fishing for Messrs. Hay?-I suppose most of them do.

8894. Do they generally understand that they are under any obligation to fish for them?-I don't think so; but it would make very little difference fishing for any other body, when we would get the same price from them.

8895. You don't think of curing your own fish, then?-No.

8896. Where do the Fetlar people sell their hosiery?-Generally in Lerwick; they go down there with it. My family do not knit much, because they have no wool, unless they get some to buy.

8897. What is paid for wool?-Sometimes it is 2s. per lb. for fine wool, sometimes 1s. 6d., and so on.

8898. Do you get that from your neighbours?-There are not many neighbours near us who have any sheep.

8899. Where do you buy it, then?-Sometimes we go to Lerwick and buy it, and sometimes in Yell.

8900. Is there no shop in Fetlar where you can buy it?-No.

8901. Where do you buy it in Lerwick?-I don't know; I do not buy it myself. They buy it just at any place where they can get it best.

8902. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Hay & Co.

8903. Is it deducted from your account when you settle?-Yes.

8904. Have you ever tried the winter fishing?-No; they don't do much in that with us. They might catch some in winter, but not many. They have generally a long way to go to seek them, and it requires particularly good weather to go out with the little boats.

8905. Have you not large enough boats for the winter fishing?- No.

8906. Do you think you could do anything if you had large decked boats?-I don't know; they have never tried them there. They might do something with them, but I don't think they would pay very well.

8907. Have your rents been raised lately?-No; they were raised a little about eight or nine years ago.

8908. Was there any different arrangement made at that time about the fishing?-No.

8909. Have you ever known any man in Fetlar who had to pay liberty money for freedom to sell his fish to another than the tacksman or factor?-No.

8910. And no man in your time has been put out of his ground for fishing to another?-No; I never heard of anything of the kind in Fetlar, either on Lord Zetland's or Lady Nicholson's ground.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, WILLIAM STEWART, examined.

8911. You are a tenant and fisherman at Seafield, Mid Yell?- Yes. Kirkabister is the town I live in.

8912. Who is your landlord?-Mrs. Budge.

8913. To whom do you sell your fish now?-I have sold them this year to Mr. Thomas Williamson.

8914. Who did you sell them to last year?-To Mr. Laurence Williamson, Linkshouse.

8915. Why did you leave him?-Because Mr. Sievwright, Mrs. Budge's factor, wished us to do it.

8916. Did you get a letter from him about the fishing?-Yes.

8917. Have you got it?-Yes. [Produces the following letter]:

' , 22 . 1870. 'WILLIAM, I now write, as I promised, to explain what I expect the Seafield tenants to do in regard to fishing, that you may communicate the same to them.

'The business premises at Seafield cannot be allowed to remain vacant, and consequently unprofitable while it is clear they must do so unless the tenants fish to the tenant of these premises. The Seafield tenants, therefore, must fish to Mr. Thomas Williamson upon fair and reasonable terms, and I understand he is quite prepared to meet them on such terms. I believe he will, in every respect, do you justice; and so long as he does so, you have no reason to complain. But should it happen that he fails to treat you fairly and honourably (of which I have no fear), you can let me know, and matters will soon be put right. You and the tenants, however, must not act towards Mr. Williamson in a selfish or hard way either, for it is quite as possible for you to do so to him as it is for him to do so to you. Both he and you all must work together, heartily and agreeably; and if you do so, I have no fear, humanly speaking, that the result will be success to both.-I am, yours faithfully, W. SIEVWRIGHT. 'William Stewart, Kirkabister, Seafield, Mid Yell.'

8918. Is that the only letter you have got on the subject?-The only one.

8919. Have you a written tack?-No.

8920. You hold your land from year to year?-Yes.

8921. Have you, since you received that letter, fished for Mr. Thomas Williamson?-Yes, in the spring and summer.

8922. And in winter?-In winter there was not a great deal doing.

8923. But what fish you did catch, what did you do with them?-I believe we sometimes went to Mr. Laurence Williamson and sometimes to Mr. Thomas Williamson with them, just as it suited.

8924. When you received that letter, had you made any arrangement to fish for the following year?-No.

8925. Had you not arranged to fish for Mr Laurence Williamson?-No, not for myself.

8926. Nor for any one else?-No. There were none of our boat's crew who had made any arrangement with Laurence Williamson, so far as I know; but the other boat's crew I think had made some sort of arrangement. There are only two boats' crews that belong to Mrs. Budge's property.

8927. How many tenants are there on her property?-I think there were formerly 23, but now there are only either 21 or 22.

8928. Mr. Sievwright speaks in his letter about the business premises at Seafield: what do you understand by that?-The shop and the station.

8929. Are there a merchant's shop and a curing station at Seafield?-Yes.

8930. Were they not let previously to the time when that letter was written?-No.

8931. Do you get the same price from Mr. Thomas Williamson that Mr. Laurence Williamson used to give you?-Yes.

8932. That was the current price at the end of the year?-Yes.

8933. But you have got your goods from him instead of buying them from Laurence Williamson?-For myself I did; but I think some of the men bought their goods from Lerwick.

8934. Were these men paid in cash?-Yes.

8935. Was Mr. Thomas Williamson's shop [Page 217]the nearest place to your house where you could get goods?-Yes.

8936. Did you take your goods from him before you fished for him?-Sometimes. I had a sort of running account at his shop. I was doing bits of jobs for him, and sometimes I got money, and sometimes I took some of his goods.

8937. But you did not do so much with him before as after you got that letter?-No; the principal part of my dealing was for the fishing.

8938. But you did not buy so many goods from him before last winter?-Certainly not.

8939. Did you buy from Mr. Laurence Williamson then?-I did, because I was keeping a running account with him then.

8940. Do you keep a running account with him now?-I was forced to do that, because I was not clear with him when I went to fish for Mr. Thomas Williamson.

8941. Were you therefore forced to keep a running account with him?-I was not in any way forced, but the account was not cleared up, because I did not have the means.

8942. Have you added to it since then?-Not much.

8943. But it is not paid up?-It is not; I have never been able to do it.

8944. Do you ever sell any beasts off your ground?-I sold one at 1st May last year, at the sale.

8945. Who was the purchaser?-Mr. Thomas Williamson.

8946. Was that at a sale at Mid Yell for the whole country?-The sale to which I went was at Cullivoe for North Yell.

8947. Had you promised Mr. Thomas Williamson the beast before you went?-No. When I went I was at liberty to sell it to any one I liked, but he bought the beast at the roup.

8948. Did anybody else bid for it?-No.

8949. Was it marked?-No. It never was entered into the bill of sale at the roup.

8950. But were the horns of the beast marked at any time?-I don't know.

8951. Why was it not entered in the bill of sale?-I made an agreement with Williamson just to take it away at the price I fixed. He said he would give what I asked for it. I asked £5, and I sent the beast home, and he gave me that for it.

8952. That took place in the first season you fished for Mr. Thomas Williamson?-Yes.

8953. By that time, I suppose, he had a little account against you?-I don't think it would be much. About that time the spring fishing was finished, and I don't think there was very much either way between us. I don't think I had much to give him, or that he had much to give me.

8954. Have you a pass-book?-No.

8955. How was the price of that beast paid?-It was remitted to Mr. Sievwright for my previous year's rent.

8956. Why had you not paid it before?-Because I had not the means.

8957. Had Mr. Sievwright been asking you for your rent before?- Yes. When he was here at Hallowmas I offered him the beast, and he told me to keep her until any time when I was aware that cattle would be at the best price.

8958. Did he say anything to you about selling it?-No. I just sold it to Mr. Williamson, and he remitted the money to Mr. Sievwright.

8959. Was that arranged between you and Mr. Sievwright, or between you and Mr. Williamson?-It was arranged between Mr. Williamson and me that he was to send on the money.

8960. Did Williamson ask you to agree to that arrangement?-No; I asked him to do it for me, because he was in the habit of writing to Mr. Sievwright oftener than me.

8961. Had you paid your rent through Mr. Williamson before, or have you done it since?-No.

8962. Have you paid your rent that was due at November?-I have not paid it yet. I intended to be in Lerwick before this time, but I have not been able to get.

8963. Have you settled with Mr. Williamson for the last year's fishing?-Yes. I think I had £6, 14s. to get, and I got it in cash.

8964. Did none of that go to pay your rent?-It is lying yet to go. I have it in my possession, because I have not seen Mr. Sievwright since.

8965. What price do you pay for meal at Seafield?-I think the first I got was 22s. 6d. I think the last was much about the same, but there might be a difference of 6d. or so.

8966. Was it of good quality?-It was very good.

8967. Where does your wife sell her eggs?-Anywhere that she can get the best tea, from Lerwick north to Seafield.

8968. Does she always sell them for tea?-For tea, or any small thing she can get.

8969. Are these sales settled for at the time?-Yes; they are settled right away.

8970. How much tea will she get for a dozen eggs?-I cannot tell, because I leave all these matters to her.

8971. Where does she sell her knitting?-She does not do much of that.

8972. Has she an account of her own?-No; she never had.

8973. Is there any kelp gathered here?-Very little.

8974. Who buys it?-Mr Thomas Williamson has bought some for a year or two back but I don't think he bought any last year. My eldest daughter was employed for two years in working at it in the summer time, and I think she had an account for it; but I don't know much about that.

8975. Were you at one time a tenant in Whalsay?-Yes.

8976. When did you leave it?-In 1862.

8977. Up till that time you were a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.

8978. What rent did you pay there?-The rent I always paid for my ground was 26s.

8979. Did you fish for Mr. Bruce at that time?-Yes, for the late Mr. William Bruce.

8980. And you had an account with him at the shop in Whalsay?- Yes.

8981. How did you pay your rent?-Generally by fishing.

8982. Was it put into your account?-Yes. The thing was carried on on a very strange system. Our land was put in to us at a low rent, and our fish were taken from us at as low a value. The prices for the fish never varied, either for the spring or summer.

8983. Do you mean that they were the same every year?-They were. Whatever they might be in the markets, they were all the same to us.

8984. Had you never the benefit of a rise in the market at all?- Never.

8985. Did you not object to that?-We just had to content ourselves with it, or leave the place.

8986. It was part of your bargain for your land, that you were to give your fish at a certain rate?-Yes; there were so much of the fish taken off for the land. That was the first of the fishing. We got 3s. 4d. cwt. for ling, 2s. 6d. for tusk, and 20d. for cod, and so much of each kind of fish was taken off until the land was paid for; and then the prices were raised to 4s., I think, for ling, 3s. 2d. for tusk, and 2s. 6d. for cod, for all the rest of the summer fishing.

8987. Did you get these prices for a number of years?-I think for the thirteen years that I was on the station they never varied one halfpenny for the summer fishing. The prices for the winter fishing varied little. Sometimes we would sell the small cod as low as 2s. 6d., and at other times at 3s.

8988. Did you sell the winter fishing for payment at the time, or did it go into the account too?-It was never put into the account at all; we just got what we required for it. It was ready payment; but it was very rarely that we got money for the winter fishing.

8989. Did you know at the time that the prices you [Page 218] were paid at the latter part of the season were lower than the market price of the fish?-We knew that but it was just the bargain.

8990. Was that the system with all the tenants in that time?-With every one.

8991. When did that system cease?-I think it ceased about a year after I came here about 1863.

8992. Why did you leave Whalsay?-There was new division of the land, and I did not consider that I was getting a good farm. I was personally acquainted with Mr. Budge, who was leaving the island then and coming to this property, and I came along with him.

Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, LAURENCE WILLIAMSON, examined.

8993. You are a merchant in this neighbourhood?-Yes; at Linkshouse, Mid Yell.

8994. Have you been long in business there?-Nearly eight years.

8995. On whose property are your premises?-The late Robert Nevin Spence's property.

8996. Are there many tenants on it?-There are a few, but I could not tell the number exactly.

8997. Are they engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.

8998. Are they at liberty to fish to any one they please?-Yes.

8999. You were engaged in the fish-curing business to a certain extent?-Yes. I do very little in it now.

9000. Your business has been considerably reduced?-Yes.

9001. Has that been since Mr. Sievwright wrote the letter which was produced by the last witness?-Yes. Mrs. Budge's tenants were the men that I had fishing to me and when they went away I could not fill up my boats.

9002. Had you made arrangements with any men for the fishing of last season when they were taken away?-Yes. It was rather too late when they let me know they were going.

9003. How do you mean that they were too late?-They commonly make up their boats' crews about Hallowmas or Martinmas, at the time of settlement, and one of the crews had agreed to fish for me for the rising season, not knowing then that they were to be taken away. Of course they had to leave me, because they knew, or at least they believed, they would be differently dealt with if they did not leave.

9004. Did you make any objection to them leaving after having struck a bargain with you?-Yes, I slightly objected to it; but, of course, I could not help it.

9005. In what way did you object?-The men who formed that boat's crew had signed a sort of written agreement that they were to fish for me in the rising year, on the same terms as they had agreed with me before. Sometimes they don't have a written agreement, only a verbal one, but on this occasion there was written agreement entered into.

9006. I suppose a verbal agreement is the usual way of arranging for the season's fishing?-Yes, generally.

9007. Did these men happen to have a written agreement?-Yes; we had a little bit form drawn up and agreed to.

9008. Had you any reason for having a written agreement at that time?-I was rather doubtful in my own mind that they would be leaving me, or rather that they would be forced to leave.

9009. Was that because there had been some talk about Mr. Thomas Williamson getting these fishermen?-The talk was not about Mr. Thomas Williamson at that time, but about Mr. Magnus Mouat. I think his name was mentioned when the talk commenced about the men leaving.

9010. But you did not insist in your objection to your agreement with the men being departed from?-No.

9011. Was that for fear of injuring the men?-Yes. Of course I saw that I could not legally hold them.

9012. Why? If they had agreed to fish for you, were they not bound to fulfil their bargain?-I thought I could not legally hold them, and I just let them go.

9013. Were you not afraid of them suffering for it if they fulfilled their bargain with you?-They must have suffered for it too.

9014. Did you make any representation on the subject to Mr. Sievwright?-No. The only communication I had was with the men themselves.

9015. How many men did you lose in that way?-Twelve.

9016. Were some of these men in your debt at the time?-Some of them were. They had a sort of running account.

9017. Have you any men fishing for you this year at all?-For the rising year I believe we will have two or three boats' crews.

9018. Had you any last year?-We had two. I and another man are in a sort of company, and we had two boats last year-one each.

9019. Did you find that the fact of Mrs. Budge's tenants leaving you and going across the water materially affected your business in the shop?-I cannot say that it injured it very much.

9020. But it would make some difference?-I don't think it made a great deal.

9021. Were not their accounts taken away from you?-There are a good many of them who deal with me still, but not to the same extent.

9022. From what quarter did you get your fishermen who engaged with you for the rising season?-From the parish of North Yell. That is the next parish to this.

9023. How far do they live from you?-Some of them are 10 miles from here.

9024. What estates are they on?-I could hardly tell, except about some of them.

9025. Have any of these men accounts for supplies in your shop?-Yes; perhaps 4 or 5 of them.

9026. For whom were they fishing last year?-Some of them fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co, and some for Spence & Co.

9027. Do you know why they are leaving these merchants?-I cannot say.

9028. Have you offered them better terms?-I don't think so. They hardly ever say what they have been getting before. We just make them an offer, and if they accept it we come to an understanding.

9029. Do you know whether any of them were indebted, at last settlement, to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., or Spence & Co.?-I cannot say.

9030. Are these men nearer to Greenbank than to you?-Yes, a great deal.

9031. Are your accounts with fishermen kept in a ledger?-I keep them in a sort of shop ledger. Each boat's crew has a company account, and each man has private account. [Produces ledger.]

9032. Your fish-book is a separate book?-Yes; with columns showing the weight of the fish delivered.

9033. What are these pages which you have turned down in your ledger?-They contain the account of William Stewart, who has just been examined.

9034. I see that for 1869 the balance of his account carried forward was £10, 0s. 41/2d., the total of his out-takes at the end of 1869, including that balance was £17, 8s. 11d. The balance due by him then was £6, 19s., after allowing £10, 9s. 11d. for his fish, which was reduced by half of skipper's fee £1, being a balance of £5, 19s. carried to the year 1870?-Yes.

9035. Then in 1870 there is an entry of 13s. 11/2d. account at North Yell: what does that mean?-That is for some small things he got there. We cure our fish there.

9036. The amount of his account at the settlement of 1870 was £17, 6s. 01/2d., and the amount of his fishing was £14, 18s. 41/2d., leaving a balance of £2, 7s. 8d. There is it deduction of 17s. 6d.: what was that for?-It was for a man who went off for Stewart.

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9037. Then there is it check for 19s.?-That was a check he gave me for that sum.

9038. The balance which is left is £2, 6s. 2d.?-Yes.

9039. On January 4, 1871, there are-spirits 2s. 21/2d., and on November 18 and November 29 there are additional supplies to the amount of 11s. 6d., making the balance now due £2, 19s. 101/2d?-Yes.

9040. Are these all the supplies that you have given him since he ceased to fish for you?-Yes. These are all that have been entered in the book.

9041. But he may have got others and paid for them in cash?- Yes.

9042. And he would get goods in payment for his winter fishing?-He has not been at the winter fishing this year.

9043. Or at the spring fishing last year?-He was at the spring fishing for Mr. Thomas Williamson.

9044. What men have you engaged for the rising year?-The engagement has been made partly with my partner in North Yell, and I don't know the names of them yet.

9045. But you know which men have opened accounts with you from North Yell?-Yes. There is Charles More, Gutcher, North Yell; he has got supplies to the amount of 19s. 8d.; and Thomas Brown, who has got supplies to the amount of 17s.

9046. Are these men bound to you now by written engagement?- No, it is merely verbal. Their boat's crew is made up.

9047. Who is your partner in North Yell?-Arthur Nicholson; he has a shop of his own at Gutcher.

9048. Has he boats of his own besides those he has in company with you?-No; but we have never been rightly in company. He has been doing my work in North Yell, and getting a fee for it, and our fish have been thrown together, and sold together.

9049. Is this [showing] the only book you keep?-It is the only