Part 90
Q. But suppose they had authority from General Latta?
A. I didn't recognize him.
Q. You didn't recognize him?
A. I didn't at that time.
Q. Certainly you couldn't have been a law-abiding citizen if you didn't?
A. I didn't at that time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Then you intended to use your own judgment as to whether the militia were there lawfully or unlawfully?
A. I look upon General Huidekoper as a gentleman, and don't think he would lie.
Q. Suppose he had said he was there on authority from the Governor?
A. I told you I would have gone off the premises and walked away. If he had told me it was none of my business, I would have told him I would make it my business. If he had told me he was there by authority of some railroad official, I would have told him that the best thing he could do for his own and for our sake, would be to take the back track, and go away.
Q. Did you see the daily papers of that week?
A. No; I don't believe I did.
Q. Did you see a published proclamation of the Governor's?
A. I don't believe I did.
Q. Did you know a proclamation had been issued?
A. I had heard of it.
Q. Commanding all citizens to disperse?
A. I had heard of it, but I didn't read it.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Then you and your party were to be the judges, whether or not General Latta had authority or not?
A. We were open to conviction. We thought we were endowed with a little common sense.
Q. I don't doubt it for a moment--not at all. But you were to be the judges whether General Latta had authority or not?
A. The way I came to get under that impression--an attorney, the first day of the strike, who was around there when this question came up about the Governor being out of the State, said that the troops or military could not be ordered out, because the Governor was not here.
Q. Give us his name?
A. I cannot give it.
Q. I insist upon it?
A. I refuse to answer the question.
Q. If the committee insists upon an answer you certainly will have to answer, because you have sworn to tell the truth?
A. Well, I well give the committee the names of any of these parties in confidence, but I don't care about telling their names to the world. I am perfectly willing to give them to the committee in confidence. I don't want to keep anything back, but I don't want to tell tales on anybody else.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did your association have an attorney employed--the Trainmen's Union?
A. Two or three were around there, sort of acting as though they were employed, but we never knew who employed them.
Q. Did you consult with them?
A. No; they came there and gave us advice.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Gratuitously?
A. That is about it.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were they ever paid any fees?
A. Not that I know of.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were they practicing attorneys at the bar?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You continued to keep up the strike there, and hold possession of the railroad property, until the arrival of the Governor of the State, did you not?
A. I believe we were on the premises when the Governor arrived.
Q. And had possession of the property of the railroad?
A. I don't know. The property was all lying there. No one was holding it?
Q. But didn't you guard it. Didn't you exercise care of it, and didn't you afterwards deliver it over to the railroad officials?
A. Yes; we told them that we wouldn't have anything more to do with it, that they must get somebody else to watch it.
Q. Who did you deliver it to?
A. A man I did not recognize came down and took possession for Mayor Phillips or his police.
Q. You surrendered the property to him?
A. No, sir; I did not, but to the officers of the road.
Q. What day was that?
A. That was the evening the Governor came in.
Q. The evening the Governor arrived?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any interview with the Governor on his arrival?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us what that was?
A. I had a little talk with him and passed the compliments of the day, and asked him to come out and say a few words to the boys, and he came out on the back platform and said something to them. We then passed on to the round-house, where there was a crowd of some five or six hundred, and he spoke a few words to them, and then went on to the city of Allegheny, where the citizens met him with a carriage and took him to Pittsburgh, by the suspension bridge.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you telegraph to him?
A. I did.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What was the nature of those telegrams?
A. Some of them are part of history. I telegraphed along the line not to interfere with the train he was on, so as not to get him angry with us, and I telegraphed him guaranteeing him a safe passage to Allegheny city.
Q. You had the power to give him a safe passage through?
A. My name was good enough at that time.
Q. Over the length of the Fort Wayne and Chicago road?
A. Yes.
Q. You controlled the road at that time?
A. It appeared that they were not going to recognize any man's orders but mine.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. But they got obstreperous at last on your hands?
A. Towards the last.
Q. Didn't you go to a meeting with some citizens to a hall?
A. Yes.
Q. And there they thought you were taking too much authority on you?
A. They thought I was going back on them. At least a scab did. He supposed I was misrepresenting things at that time. At least I think so now. They were starving, and wanted coal, and I ordered a provision train and a coal train out, and one fellow wanted to kill me right off.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. So they struck on you?
A. Yes; this was the following Thursday. I had not been down from the Tuesday night when the Governor arrived until this afternoon of Thursday.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What means did you take to enforce your orders after they struck on you?
A. They did not strike on me.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Didn't they refuse to obey your orders?
A. I had ceased to exist at that time. That was on the Tuesday night, and this meeting was on Thursday afternoon. Because I would not come up, I suppose they felt sick and sore, and thought I was trying to sell them out.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Those citizens you talked about who offered you arms, were not those men the ones who went with you to the meeting?
A. Neither one of them was there.
Q. Didn't they ask you to protect this property, and after a conversation with you, didn't you agree to go with them to this meeting and talk to the rioters?
A. There were no rioters on the Fort Wayne road.
Q. Or the strikers?
A. Yes.
Q. Didn't you promise them to keep order, and in consideration of that didn't they agree to give you the arms to keep off the mob in case any party came to burn the town?
A. No, sir; this was on the Thursday after the fire. I was at no meeting from the 27th day of June until this Thursday.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was there no understanding between you and the strikers on the Pennsylvania road during this time, after you got back to Allegheny City and took charge of things--were you acting in concert in preventing trains from going out?
A. I don't know that anything particular of that kind was agreed upon. Of course we talked over things of that kind.
Q. But you had communications with the parties who were striking on the Pennsylvania road?
A. Yes; men were going back and forth all the time.
Q. Was there anybody over there that had control of the strike there or who was looked up to as a leader or recognized as such?
A. There were some three or four of them. The man supposed to be the leader showed the white feather.
Q. Who was that?
A. Samuel Muckle, the president of the Pan Handle division.
Q. He was supposed to be the leader in the start?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was their leader after he showed the white feather?
A. I don't know, but I think Hice. He was at Torrens station.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. How did he show the white feather?
A. He was a man who didn't live up to what he said he would do.
Q. In what respect?
A. He didn't live up to what he said he would do at the meeting.
Q. What did he agree to do in the first place?
A. He agreed to stand by the boys.
Q. What were the boys to do?
A. If the boys went out on a strike, Muckle was to stand by them.
Q. And prevent the running of trains?
A. The understanding was that every man was to quit work and go away, but not to prevent the running of trains. Muckle was discharged, and he tried to get a job in the employ of the road. His object in getting the men to strike was to get them out and then come in and scab it.
Q. That is, come in and offer his services to the railroad?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. But were communications going on between you and the leaders of the Pennsylvania road--the leaders of the strike? Was there any concerted movement or action between you?
A. No, sir.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Give us a definition of your idea of a strike. What is generally understood by railroad men, or what did the Trainmen's Union understand by a strike?
A. So far as the Trainmen's Union was concerned, we considered by a strike that every man on the three grand trunk lines should go home when the hour came--just leave his train standing there.
Q. You mean refuse to work?
A. Yes.
Q. Nothing more?
A. That was our understanding.
Q. But you were not to prevent other men from working?
A. We had an understanding if a man was not a union man to coax him off if we could.
Q. But if he would not be coaxed?
A. Then to leave him stay. We considered that his own conscience would be enough for him.
Q. But you were not to try to drive him off?
A. No; a man who is a scab has a hard enough time of it. He has a hard time enough of it to make his life unbearable to him.
Q. Was any violence used that you know of to prevent trains from running on the Fort Wayne and Chicago railroad?
A. No, sir; none was used. I would not have allowed, so far as I was concerned.
Q. By what authority did you assume charge of the Fort Wayne and Chicago railroad?
A. I think I assumed authority of the Fort Wayne from telegrams I received from Mr. Layng, who is the general manager from Pittsburgh to Chicago.
Q. What were those telegrams?
A. I was asked to take charge of the trains and engines, and to move them to places of safety.
Q. Have you those dispatches?
A. I have.
Q. Have you them here?
A. No.
Q. Can you produce them?
A. I can, sir.
Q. Will you produce them?
A. Not in this city.
Q. Where will you produce them?
A. I will produce them anywhere where I can get them. I asked to have them sent here, but could not get them.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Would this strike on the Fort Wayne and Chicago road have occurred if the strike on the Pennsylvania road had not occurred at that time?
A. That is a pretty hard question to answer.
Q. From your information--from what you know of the circumstances and the men engaged in it?
A. I have not thought over that, and really I cannot give an answer.
Q. Do you know whether the men on the Fort Wayne and Chicago road were making any preparations for a strike distinct from any strike upon the Pennsylvania railroad?
A. Some of them were and some of them were not.
Q. At this particular time that the strike occurred?
A. Really, I have never thought the matter over, and I cannot answer that question, because I have not thought it over in that light at all. They may have and they may not.
Q. You say that the main cause of the strike on the Pennsylvania road was the running of double-headers?
A. That is my impression.
Q. The cause of the strike upon the Fort Wayne road at that time was what?
A. Several things combined. I think it was the abuse of power by the under officials more than anything else.
Q. That and the ten per cent.?
A. Yes; that was pretty hard to swallow.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. I understood you to say in talking to some citizens you had given some figures as to the wages that could be earned after the ten per cent. reduction. Can you give those figures to the committee now?
A. I didn't state the amount that could be earned, but the amount they were paying--brakeman, $1 45.
Q. Per day?
A. Per trip, that is called a day.
By Mr. Englebert:
Q. How many hours?
A. The shortest run on the road was seven hours and twenty-five minutes. The longest run was eight hours and thirty-five minutes. Firemen the same as brakemen. Conductors, first class, $2 12; second class, $1 89 or $1 91, I forget which. Engineers--I don't remember the classified pay--first class, three dollars and eleven or twelve cents. That had a great deal to do with the strike--the classification--so far as the engineers were concerned.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How many days could you average per week?
A. The year around, or at that time?
Q. At that time?
A. I think the month that I was discharged I drew twenty-nine dollars and some cents--I don't know what.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. As brakeman?
A. Yes. I had an income of forty dollars a month besides that, and it was the only way I could live.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you make all the time?
A. I believe I did. I believe I lost only one trip. My impression is I did lose one trip.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was not the amount you could earn governed by the amount of business doing by the road at that time--if the freight shipments were large you all got work?
A. We all had work any how. We all came in our turn.
Q. But the amount of money you made depended on the amount of the business of the road?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You put in your six days a week--work a week at $1 40?
A. I undoubtedly worked six days.
Q. Every week?
A. Not at that time. We were not averaging six days' work at that time.
Q. Were you prior to that time?
A. Really I have forgot; but the pay was running very poor. I think the business was good in January and February, March and April, but I think after that time it was very slack.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. How many days did you make in any one month?
A. In the month of January I made forty-four days.
Q. By over work?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did not the officials, when you sent your committee to them, didn't they talk over this matter with you?
A. Before the strike?
Q. Yes.
A. No, sir.
Q. Didn't you send a committee down to Philadelphia to see Mr. Scott?
A. Of engineers, I believe. We heard what the engineers were doing, and got enough of the engineers. They generally patched things up for themselves. They didn't look after anything else. It was about the time of taking the ten per cent. off.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. What position did you hold in Trainmen's Union?
A. I don't know that I held any position. I was appointed to organize the unions, and had unlimited powers.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. By whom?
A. By what we called--there were members appointed from each division, and they constituted a sort of grand lodge. The division I belonged to was first organized. That is where I got my power from. They sent me right out. It was a Saturday night, and I left Pittsburgh the following Monday, June 4.
Q. Who organized the first lodge?
A. I was the first man to take an oath. I guess all took a hand in it.
Q. Were you president of that lodge?
A. There was no president of that lodge at that time.
Q. Were you chief of that lodge?
A. I suppose I was that night.
Q. What did they call the chief of that lodge--what name?
A. The grand organizer.
Q. Then by delegations from other lodges, you were appointed to organize lodges throughout the country?
A. Our lodge gave me authority, and as we formed lodges, they sent in delegations to form a grand lodge, and they confirmed the action of our lodge.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Who paid your expenses going around?
A. The boys.
Q. As a union or a society, or did the boys contribute what they saw fit?
A. All the money I ever got, I got from the union at that time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. From the lodge?
A. Yes; from the treasurer of the lodge.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was it an oath-bound association?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you go to Martinsburg, Virginia?
A. I was in that neighborhood.
Q. Were you at Martinsburg, Virginia?
A. I was very near to it.
Q. That is not an answer to my question.
A. At what time?
Q. To organize a lodge there before the strike?
A. I did initiate men into the organization called the Trainmen's Union, at Martinsburg.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you organize lodges over the Baltimore and Ohio road?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Was it understood by your lodges that this strike was to commence at Martinsburg?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know, before the strike commenced at Martinsburg, Virginia, that it was going to take place?
A. No; of course I heard all that talk. They talked most loud at Martinsburg, but I thought it was all wind. I didn't think they would strike at all.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. When you were telegraphed at Oil City, were you there for the purpose of organizing lodges?
A. It was Parker City.
Q. Were you there for the purpose of organizing lodges?
A. At that time?
Q. Yes?
A. I went up there to get work.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How long had you been railroading?
A. About eleven months altogether.
Q. What had been your business before that?
A. I was in the hotel business.
Q. Where?
A. At Collinwood, eight miles from Cleveland.
Q. Were you proprietor of the hotel?
A. Yes.
Q. For how long?
A. One year and nine months.
Q. What was your business before that?
A. I was in the insurance business.
Q. Where?
A. At Pittsburgh.
Q. Is that your home?
A. Yes; it is my native place.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Were you working for your father or for yourself in the insurance business?
A. I represented four Chicago companies for myself.
Q. When you returned from the oil country, you say you met some railroad men who belonged to the Baltimore and Ohio railroad?
A. Of the Connellsville division.
Q. Where did you meet them?
A. Around the Union depot.
Q. How many of them did you meet there?
A. I remember three engineers who were there.
Q. Any other trainmen?
A. O, yes.
Q. Of the Baltimore and Ohio road?
A. These three engineers are all I can remember.
Q. Were they the ones who telegraphed to you to come to Pittsburgh?
A. No.
Q. Where did those men belong to--the Baltimore and Ohio or the Pennsylvania Central? Who telegraphed you?
A. To neither road.
Q. Of what road were they employés?
A. Of the Fort Wayne road.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. How many miles of railroad had this trouble?
A. I never figured it up. A good many miles.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You had a signal to stop trains?
A. You can stop any train if you have the signal.
Q. But did not your organization have a particular signal by which you could stop the trains?
A. The Trainmen's Union?
Q. Yes?
A. Before the strike?
Q. Yes?
A. No, sir.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Different from the ordinary signal?
A. I don't comprehend the question exactly.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was not there an understood signal among the trainmen by which, if an engineer of a train undertook to run it, they would throw him this signal, and he would stop the train and get off?
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Some peculiar signal?
A. No; I saw lots of engineers that wanted the boys to do that.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. You say then that there was no signal?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What was this signal that was used on the Pennsylvania railroad to stop trains? Was it any peculiar signal among the strikers different from other signals?
A. I have heard of it, but I can't speak from my own knowledge.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What did you hear?
A. While in jail, McAllister told me that an engineer came to him and said, "McAllister, when we come to pull out from the round-house, you just jump up on the engine and say there is some danger--you put up your hand." McAllister is an innocent sort of a fellow, and he did just as the engineer told him, and he was convicted and sentenced to six months in the work-house.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did the engineer get off when McAllister told him he couldn't go down to Twenty-eighth street?
A. He run the engine back into the house.
Q. Who was the engineer?
A. I don't remember his name.
Q. Did you ever hear that a signal was agreed upon?
A. I have heard so many stories about that, I did not pay any attention to them.
Q. Was there any class of men coöperating with your party, beside your party?
A. The mill men and the glass-house men.
Q. They all seemed to be in sympathy with the strikers?
A. Yes; they came across to the boys.
Q. They came voluntarily, did they?
A. Yes.
Q. And entered into the strike like the railroad men?
A. Yes.
Q. And took hold and assisted you?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there another class of men--tramps or strangers--who came there from a distance?
A. They crowded into Allegheny City, but we used to railroad them out of the town.
Q. You did not care to have the assistance of that class of men?
A. No.
Q. Were there any men who came from other roads and assisted you there?
A. Yes; we had men from other roads--the Baltimore and Ohio, the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern.
Q. How many men came from the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern?
A. Oh, two or three men.
Q. What did they say their business was?
A. That they came from such and such a road, and had a strike, and just come to see how we fellows were doing it.
Q. What business did they have to travel up to Allegheny City?
A. It was not very far.
Q. Was there any agreement or understanding between you strikers and the men who came from distant places, that they should concentrate at Allegheny City or at Pittsburgh?
A. There was some talk about that.
Q. Why did they want to come to that place?
A. Oh, not to Pittsburgh, just exactly.
Q. But that was considered to be the head-quarters of the strike?
A. Yes.
Q. And the principal strike or trouble would be there?
A. That is about what they thought. It was talked over in the Trainmen's Union.
Q. If the understanding among the strikers was that they were merely to leave their work and go home--to leave their trains--why was there an understanding to congregate at Pittsburgh?
A. I didn't say that. It was one of the things that was talked over, but nothing was decided on definitely. If we had struck on the 27th of June, there never would have been any trouble at all.
Q. Would the men have come from the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern to Pittsburgh, if a strike had taken place on the 27th of June? Was there any understanding, that if a strike took place then, that men from different points would collect at some one point?
A. There was some talk about it, but nothing of the kind was decided on definitely. It was all talked over.
Q. Then the men that came without any understanding?
A. They just wanted to see how things were going.
Q. Were they discharged men, principally, that came from the other roads?
A. No.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Do you know anything about that boat load of men that came down the Monongahela river?
A. No.
Q. Was there any understanding that that boat load should come?
A. Not that I know of.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did any other citizens, except the two men you have mentioned--citizens of Pittsburgh or Allegheny City--talk with you or offer to aid you in any way?
A. Lots of the citizens were around there in the crowd, and they gave arms to the boys, and encouragement. For instance, one man would have his shot gun, and he brought it, and one man had a rifle, and he brought it out and gave it to the boys, and some had revolvers, and they brought them out.
Q. And arms were given to the strikers in that way, by the citizens?
A. Yes.
Q. Was ammunition given to you in the same way?
A. Yes.
Q. What class of citizens were they who gave the arms and the ammunition?
A. They looked as respectable as Mr. Lindsey.
Q. Were they laboring men, or were they professional men?
A. They looked like professional men.
Q. Were any business men among them?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. When was this?
A. On Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.