Part 55

A. They were taken to the station-house, and Alderman Butler, I believe, who was in charge--I was not in charge for a week; I had something else to do--I believe they came to the conclusion that they could not be convicted of larceny, from not being able to identify what goods they had. All things were thrown together in the hurry of the moment, and they could not identify them nor the goods, and I believe they came to the conclusion that an action of larceny would not lie, and it would be troublesome to prove it, and he fined them.

Q. How many of them did he fine?

A. Indeed, I cannot tell. I never looked to see.

Q. Did he discharge any of them?

A. That I do not know. I had too much to do, to look after them.

Q. Was any record made of it?

A. Oh! yes; they have their names down in the watch-house docket.

Q. You never examined the record?

A. No, sir; I never examined it because it was a trifling matter compared with other things that had to be done, and I paid no attention to it.

Q. Had you any intimation from any source prior to the appearance of Mr. Watt on Thursday at your office of an outbreak among the railroad employés?

A. No, sir; but on the contrary, I happened to know from the president of the Trainmen's Union that when he was told that, eleven o'clock that day, he disputed the accuracy of the statement. He knew nothing of it, but when he was assured in such a way that he thought there must be something in it, he left the corner of Eleventh and Liberty streets for Twenty-eighth street, to know what the facts were. He himself did not believe it.

Q. You had no reason at all to anticipate anything of the kind?

A. No; I never dreamed that there would be an outbreak such as there was.

Q. That there would be a strike at all on the railroad?

A. Oh, no; had no idea of it at all. I very seldom come in contact with railroad men.

Q. In the conversations that you had with the men who went out in the Twelfth ward, did they give you any reasons for the outbreak and the strike?

A. No, sir; never entered into a critical examination of the question there at that time.

Q. Your conversation with them was simply in relation to----

A. What was occurring at the moment. I think from all I could gather from the railroad men, that they were averse to what took place.

Q. Had you noticed any influx of people in the city, prior to this time--within a few days?

A. No, sir; I had not, but there was one thing struck me with surprise, that I did not know the faces of vast numbers of people. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, and I know an immense number of faces. I almost think I can tell a Pittsburgher when I see him, but on that day there were vast numbers of people I could not recognize. I got into close quarters with them twice. By the by, I have not told you that I came in contact with them at the head of the platform of the Union depot, but, like Doctor Donnelly's men, in about ten seconds I was placed _hors du combat_. They invited me to take a little walk--one fellow struck me. A good man in the crowd interfered, and told me they did not want to hurt me, but if I stayed there I would have to take the consequence. I looked around at Officer Jones, who went into the crowd with me, and I saw him looking pretty black, and he made up his mind to the situation, and he left. He came over to me, and says, "Mayor, you had better get out of this." I was disposed to kick. I did not feel very afraid of them. I am not a man of courage. He gave me a nudge, says he, "Get out quick." And I thought I had better go. With that the mob picked me up and carried me from the head of the platform and landed me out in front of the depot, and Alderman O'Donnell and Dan Hall, and four or five policemen then came up, and I was led into the Union depot.

Q. What time was that?

A. I cannot tell the time--it was when the mob was coming down the Pennsylvania railroad yard, smashing up cars and things.

Q. Some time Sunday?

A. I got a little angry, and lost my head. I did not care what I did, and Jones and I, and two or three others, I do not know who they were, went in.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. I would like to ask a few more questions in regard to the sheriff and military superseding the mayor?

A. Never ending and always beginning. Do you expect to put me in the hole, Mr. Yutzy?

Q. Not at all. I would like to know why you considered yourself superseded by any other authorities here in the city, the disturbance having commenced?

A. I have tried to impress that upon you half a dozen times.

Q. Were you informed, by either of those parties, that you were not needed?

A. I have told you two or three times _no_, and I shall have to continue answering it _no_ every time you ask me.

Q. Did you not consider it your duty to make an effort to suppress the riot and disturbance after they had made an effort to do so?

A. After they had made an effort and abandoned it, I did make an effort.

Q. During the time you were making that effort, did you not consider it your duty also, as chief officer of the city, to suppress any riot or disturbance?

A. I think I told you several times.

Q. Answer that question?

A. I say I have already told you several times, that they pursued a course so diametrically opposed to anything I would have done or could have approved of, and having a firm conviction that no persuasion of mine could alter the determination of the authorities who had it in charge, that I could not interfere.

Q. You made no effort, then, to disperse or suppress the riot?

A. No, sir.

Q. After they had made an effort?

A. After they had made an effort, I did.

Q. During the time they were making an effort?

A. No, sir.

Q. Made no effort?

A. No, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. And not until after they had failed, in your judgment?

A. Yes, sir. What more evidence would you want than that everybody had run away--they had left. I do not charge the soldiers with running away--do not understand that. I meant among the men who said the Philadelphia troops murdered the people there. I am not among those men. I believe they were murdered, but the Philadelphia troops are not responsible for it.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. During the time that the sheriff or the State authorities were making an effort to suppress this riot and disperse the mob, was it not your duty, just as much as if they had not been here, to preserve the peace, and make every effort in your power to the same end?

A. I have already answered that question half a dozen times. I answered it a moment ago.

Q. Will you please answer that, yes or no.

A. Under the circumstances, I do not think that I had anything to do with it.

Q. I would like you to answer that question. It may not be so very material, but I would like to have that question answered, yes or no?

A. I have answered it?

Q. Can you answer it, yes or no.

A. I have already answered it. Under the circumstances, I do not think so.

Q. The sheriff and the military, or even the United States Government, attempting to suppress a riot unless there was military law declared, did you not consider it your duty to make every effort in your power to preserve the peace and prevent any disturbance in your city?

A. I would consider it my duty to do so if there was nothing to interfere with me.

Q. Was there anybody interfering with your duties by any manner of means?

A. I have already said that I considered I was relieved by the sheriff and the State authorities.

Q. Did they interfere with you?

A. It just comes down to this; that is my platform, and that is what I believe, and you happen to think differently.

Q. I wish to ask you the question whether they interfered with you by any manner of means in the performance of your duties?

A. They did not.

Q. And still you suspended your operations or your efforts to suppress this riot and keep the peace?

A. Because these gentlemen superseded me and took possession.

Q. In what way did they supersede you?

A. By dismissing the police that they had in charge, the railroad men, and by the sheriff going there and performing his duties as sheriff, and by calling out the State troops.

Q. Who dismissed these police?

A. The railroad men.

Q. Are you subordinate to the railroad authorities?

A. No, sir; I am not subordinate to them, not by a long slap. There cannot be two kings where I am one.

Q. Still you regarded the railroad company as superseding you when they dismissed your police?

A. No, sir; I did not.

Q. Did they supersede you at any time--the railroad authorities?

A. Why, certainly they did.

Q. By calling upon the sheriff?

A. By the sheriff undertaking to order the crowd to disperse at Twenty-eighth street, and then immediately coming to the conclusion that the civil power had become exhausted, and then sending a dispatch by Senator Scott calling for the troops, and the troops being ordered out--that superseded me, suspended me. I went over that a dozen times. I am on this stand doing the swearing, and I am swearing for myself.

Q. I would not ask you any question that I did not think was a proper one?

A. I don't think that, but we differ.

Q. There appears to be a conflict of authority in this matter between the city and the county and the State authorities?

A. Not a particle of conflict of authority. I took pretty good care that there should be no conflict. When the county and the military and the railroad authority undertook to follow a course which I would have nothing to do with, that I could not approve of, that I believed would end in disaster, as it did, I stepped aside and let them have their way, because I could not control these men.

Q. We want to know where the responsibility should rest--which of those authorities should have taken command?

A. You have a right to form your opinion from the evidence before you. I have given my evidence, what I thought about the matter.

Q. For that reason I ask you the question whether you considered yourself superseded by other authorities, and should refrain from making any effort?

A. I have told you I thought so, and gave you my reasons for it.

Q. During the pillage and the carrying away of goods at the Union depot and in that vicinity, from the railroad, did you see any of the citizens carrying away any of those goods?

A. Oh, yes; there must have been citizens--they must have been citizens--it was not the fellows who were stealing that there was any danger from. It was the fellows standing around with their hands in their pockets.

Q. Did you know anyone in particular who was carrying away goods there?

A. I did not.

Q. Did you see any of the policemen carrying away any goods?

A. I did not; and don't believe they did.

Q. Did you see any of them taking cigars or anything of that kind?

A. Yes; I know what you are coming at now; I had forgotten all about it. We have not been going on chronology, we have been switching off. I saw a number of police throwing what I supposed to be segars, in fact I might say I know, to the mob. The circumstances were these.

Q. Thrown by the police to the mob?

A. O, yes; precisely that and nothing else. You will remember that I said that I telegraphed to detain the policemen, and send them up there on Sunday morning. I got up there pretty late, and the policemen were waiting on me. I hadn't much confidence in any person we had, because I knew that the retreat and dispersal of the soldiers had emboldened the disorderly, and they thought when the soldiers would leave the mob, that the citizens had no chance, and the community were demoralized. I got about twenty policemen, I think, and I thought it would be a good thing to put them to light work and put a little spirit in them. I took them around and told them to go up the wall and drive those thieves away. I didn't get on the wall, I walked down alongside the wall to witness their operations. As soon as the police mounted the wall and the thieves saw them--I kept down with the police the great body of them; I followed on the street and they upon the wall, and the wall was clear for a very few minutes, and I happened to turn my eye up, and I saw a policeman with a bundle of those soft felt hats that are piled on top of one another, and he was throwing them down to the crowd in the street, and I rushed up for him, and shook my fist at him, and used some choice Italian, and then he stopped, and after talking a little string to him I turned, and down the line I saw a couple of policemen jump into a car and throw things out--they were cigars--and they threw things down to the crowd. I rushed down there and bellowed like a mad bull at them, and they stopped finally, but the moral effect of their previous conduct was gone, and the crowd mounted the hill like so many rats, and that was the end of that business. The men engaged in that were two lieutenants, and I am free to say there were not two better men in the force, but they lost their heads; they were completely surrounded by fire, and they thought those things would burn up, and as they would be burned up they just thought they might mollify the crowd--a very mistaken idea--by throwing these things to the crowd. It was from no desire to help the mob, but they had ignored the moral principle involved that they had no right to touch anything, except for the sole and only purpose of preserving it for its owner, and no other purpose. They had forgotten that part of their catechism.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. In other words, the police were demoralized as well as the citizens?

A. At that moment they were. I don't think these men would ever do a thing of that kind again.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. What was done with those policemen for that act?

A. I dropped them. I could not do anything else.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Discharged them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Are they on the force now?

A. That I can't say. I do not know anything about the present force?

Q. Did you discharge them permanently?

A. They left, certainly, and were never on again. They were on again for some days afterwards, for I had too many things to attend to, to attend to them just at once. I pitied the men, because I knew them to be good men, and I am very confident they will never do so again. It took the starch out of me. I was demoralized by it. There are some things you haven't asked me questions about. There was some talk here the other day about protection to the fire department.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. There has been some testimony that citizens, about the time they were breaking into these gun stores, came and offered to be sworn--state what you know about that?

A. That was by Follensbee. Mr. Follensbee came there and offered. He came to the office very much demoralized.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Just state the fact whether he offered his services, and then whether you accepted or not, and then give the reason why you didn't accept him?

A. I don't know whether he offered his services or not. There were more men, during these two or three hours that I was assigning these men to duty--there were more men who came in there, in the capacity of military strategists, than would be enough to run the United States and Confederate army during the rebellion, and I was annoyed to death with every man coming in there who had some plan. I could not get my wits together. This Mr. Follensbee came there. I have no recollection personally of what he said, but I do know that he was very sadly demoralized with something stronger than I am going to take now. He is a good gentleman, as honest a man as ever lived.

Q. You did not swear him in?

A. No.

Q. Was that the reason why you did not?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Did any other gentlemen with him offer their services?

A. Not that I know of. There was so many people came in and talked about so many things, and how this, that, and the other thing could be done, that I thought of getting a stuffed club to beat them out with.

Q. Did you send any policemen to Mr. Bown's store?

A. Undoubtedly. I suppose there was a dozen there. They were over-powered by the momentum of the mob, and Lieutenant Chalfant was knocked down, as I was told by the policemen a few days afterwards, when we began to gather up our wits. I was told that some of the policemen that were there tried to keep the pavement clear, and took out their pistols, and citizens who were there requested them to put them up, and not use them--that they would be murdered.

Q. Just state what you know--what came under your own observation?

A. Nothing came under my observation there. You won't know how to probe this thing, unless I told you what can be shown.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. I am inclined to think that anything in the police officers' reports--the police officers reporting to you, in an official capacity--would be testimony?

A. Now, about Follensbee. The city clerk was down in front of Mr. Bown's, and there was not a very great many people. They had been trying to keep the people moving. Mr. Follensbee was standing there, and the city clerk appeared to go that way----

Q. We have had the city clerk's report of that, from himself, which is much better evidence than coming from a second party. All we want to know, is just what came under your observation, and what was officially reported to you by your policemen?

A. I sent men there, and I know they went there.

Q. You say you sent about a dozen policemen there?

A. I suppose there must have been a dozen, and I know, from the report of the police to me, that they endeavored to keep the crowd back, and did keep the crowd back, and that one man in the crowd counted one, two, three, four, and up to ten--they are no count, and the whole crowd made a rush at them, and Lieutenant Chalfant was knocked down, and the momentum of the crowd carried the crowd out of sight. They had thrown stones at the heads of them, and broken the windows.

Q. You didn't make any effort to get any greater number of policemen to send there?

A. We had to ... half a dozen places at the same time. We just done the best we could, and possibly might have done better, if there had not been so many strategists coming there to bother us.

Q. Did you send any policemen to protect the fire companies?

A. Why, yes, sir.

Q. Whom did you send?

A. I was there myself, with fifteen policemen.

Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?

A. Let me tell you.

Q. Just answer the question?

A. We can get to that better.

Q. Whom did you offer assistance to?

A. To the man in charge.

Q. Who was he?

A. I don't know what his name was.

Q. What street was it?

A. It was, as I think, at the corner of Twentieth and Liberty. You can't understand this, unless you let me tell the story.

Q. At what time?

A. I can't give you any hour. I know nothing of time.

Q. You offered assistance to the man in charge. What was he doing?

A. He was throwing water on French's spring works. You better let me tell the story. You are cutting it up.

Q. What did he say?

A. He says to me, says he, "I won't do it--I am not going to risk my life--if you want to take charge of this thing you can do it."

Q. He was throwing water at that time without any molestation from the mob?

A. Certainly; and the police was stationed across the street to protect them. Whether they would have stood fire or not, I can't tell.

Q. What assistance did you offer him?

A. The police that were there within thirty feet of me.

Q. If he was not molested by the mob at that time, he wanted no further assistance?

A. You won't let me tell this story straight. If you let me commence at the beginning you will understand it.

Q. Did you offer assistance at any other time than the one you speak of now?

A. I told you that I offered assistance on Saturday night, and it was refused.

Q. To whom did you offer the assistance on Saturday night?

A. I sent Officer Coulson to the fire department to tell them to come and aid the police.

Q. We have had Officer Coulson and his story?

A. On Sunday morning, when the fire had crossed Liberty street, I went to hunt the chief of the fire department, and could not find him, to concert measures with him. That is the time I talked about the water arrangement. Then a man connected with the Pennsylvania railroad came to me, and says he, "If I get an engine at the corner of Twentieth street to throw water on the railroad cars will you have the police force there to protect me?" Says I, "I will." I immediately went and I gathered about fifteen policemen, as nigh as I can guess, and had them at the corner of Twentieth street. I think it is at the lower end of French's spring works. I had them there a very long time, and no engine appeared. John Coyle, a member of the bar here, came along and spoke to me, and I said to him, says I, "John"--I told him the facts--"come along with me, I want to hunt this thing up," and we went up to find the chief, and we didn't find him. We found Commissioner Coates, the man that had a pistol at his head and lived to tell the tale. He said he had an engine. I left Mr. Coyle and came down. Coyle went about his business; and I saw an engine coming down one of the cross-streets--Penn street--and I went over to see where it was going, and it went away down town. I went back to where I had the police stationed waiting for the engine to come. After a very great delay, the engine came and attached to a fire plug; but instead of throwing water upon the burning cars, opposite to this street where we were, he commenced throwing upon French's spring works. Then Mr. Houseman I think it is--the gentleman who had made the request of me--I went to him and said something to him, and he came back to me and said, "These men won't do anything. You come and see what you can do." I went over to him, and the answer he made was he was not going to risk his life, but if I wanted to take charge of it I could do so. But I didn't do so. Then the police--they were few in number, and not able to do anything--I just told them to go and do what they could. Then I went down town, and knew the result of the citizens' meeting.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You said you did not agree, nor could not agree with the plan adopted by the sheriff and the troops, or the officers of the troops, in charge of matters, and at the same time the directions you gave your police was to be careful, and not excite the crowd, and not make these arrests. Are we to infer from that, that your plan was that you must not oppose force to them, you must handle them gingerly and tenderly. Is that what we must infer?

A. No, sir; every occasion presents its own line of action.

Q. The troops and the sheriff were trying to oppose the crowd by force and stop the riot, and you say you did not agree with their plan of action?

A. I don't. I think that the military force is only to be used in case of the very last resort.

Q. In ordering your policemen not to make these arrests, are we to infer----

A. Infer and understand this, that in ordering these policemen to be careful how they made arrests, it was after I had considered I had been superseded, and I wanted them to make the arrests when they made them in such a way as not to create any disturbance.

Q. Are we to infer from your evidence upon that point that your manner of managing such a mob would be to give way to them, and not oppose force to the crowd?

A. I have said nothing, I think, to indicate that.

Q. What would be your plan in such a case?

A. I would have policemen to do it. I don't think the policemen would create such a truculent feeling as an arrest by the use of military.

Q. You think then that the police are the proper force to use on such occasions?

A. Until you ascertain you can do nothing with them, until all other means have failed, and then, and not till then, are the military to be used.

Q. Did you attempt at any time on Sunday to gather your police force in a body so as to have an organized force large enough to accomplish something?