Part 54
Q. Didn't your police inform you that the mob had overpowered the police, and also the railroad authorities, on Thursday?
A. Why, no! they didn't overpower them. I proved that here. They were not overpowered.
Q. They had every control of their railroad and their rolling stock without interference?
A. I will prove it to you by the police.
Q. I want to know what you were informed of the situation of affairs--what you know of your own knowledge?
A. I was not there. I don't know anything of my own knowledge. I can tell you what can be proved by the police.
Q. I ask you the question, what reports you got from your officers?
A. That everything was quiet and peaceable after the arrest of McCall.
Q. Did you receive any reports from your officers on Friday, that everything was quiet?
A. On Friday morning I received word that the police had been dismissed by the Pennsylvania railroad men.
Q. Who informed you of that fact?
A. I can't tell you.
Q. An officer of your force?
A. I presume so; in fact it must have been; that state of facts I can prove here and demonstrate.
Q. Did you at any time deem it necessary to increase your force of police?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But did you do so?
A. Done what I could to increase.
Q. To what extent did you increase your force?
A. It was increased upwards of one hundred men, by the order of the committee of public safety, and after I got about one hundred, their orders were that I should increase the force to three hundred, but I came to the conclusion that that number of men were not needed, and I didn't employ any more. I suppose we had altogether about two hundred and forty or two hundred and fifty men.
Q. Did you increase your police force before you were ordered to do so by the public committee?
A. Yes; to the extent of ordering the police who were unemployed to report to the city hall for duty on Sunday forenoon. A portion of them came, not many. They considered they had been very badly treated, and they did not care about risking their lives under those circumstances.
Q. Could you have demanded citizens to serve as police on your force?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And did you do so?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you have all you needed?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why did not you make this demand?
A. Because I had no time to do it. My time was fully occupied. I had met several gentlemen in the morning, and they called a citizens' meeting for the forenoon, and I expected them to make arrangements to go out, in what we might call, in a non-legal way, in a posse, but instead of doing that they thought it more advisable to send a number of gentlemen up to address the crowd.
Q. Who thought so?
A. The meeting.
Q. Citizens' meeting?
A. Yes, sir; they were there and addressed the crowd from the upper end of the platform of the Union depot, but it was of no avail, talking was of no use. Then they were to have a meeting in the afternoon. I came down to that meeting and met the committee at the city hall, talked a little there, and then they adjourned to meet on Market street, and there was considerable talk. Doctor Donnelly was there, he was one of the spokesmen, and he talked there about having offered, with the permission of the mayor, a company. He is slightly mistaken as to having formed a company; it was I who formed it.
Q. A military company with arms?
A. No, sir; a company of citizens.
Q. Armed citizens?
A. They were not armed. They had nothing.
Q. You subsequently armed them, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir. To properly understand the spirit with which I was actuated, with permission of the committee, I will read two extracts, one from the _Post_ of Monday, and one from the _Gazette_ of Monday morning, these extracts are not literally reported, but to show the spirit that was there, and with permission of the committee, I will read them.
Q. Are they long?
A. No, sir; they are not long. This is from the _Post_ of Monday, July 23, 1877.
Q. An editorial?
A. A local report. This is the extract: "An enterprising individual here endeavored to throw cold water on the spirit of the meeting, by saying they needed a thousand men; but he was suppressed. Mayor McCarthy rushed to the stand, and said there was no use of any more fooling. 'Let all who wanted to save their city fall into line, and go at once to the mayor's office, and be sworn in as extra policemen. The fire was spreading, and the incendiaries were still at work, and we must act now.'" Then the reporter puts in this: "This suited the meeting, and a portion of the meeting formed in line, and, under head of the mayor, marched off." That is from the _Post_.
Q. Before you go any further, did you command that force?
A. I led them; went at their head. I will give you a history of that.
Q. As commander of them?
A. Yes; they were not going into action. There is a history about this, which I will give you after reading this. This is from the _Gazette_ of Monday, July 23, an extract: "There was now a loud call for the mayor, who was in the crowd. He stepped to the front, and said, 'The city is on fire. There is no time to be lost. I want every man, who is ready to help me, to go up here to join this band to go and put down incendiaries.' Mr. Henry Pilipps, junior, said, 'Let us go to the city hall at once, and be perfectly organized as a vigilance committee, and let the mayor swear his policemen in.' The mayor then said, 'I can swear them in now,' and suiting the action to the word, the mayor made his way to one end of the crowd, and countermarched through them. The ranks were quickly filled up, as soon as the movement was understood. The meeting adjourned to call of the chair, and the company proceeded up Fifth avenue." Now this company that I formed there. Doctor Donnelly was present, and he had been spoken of as a fit person to command. I intended to have taken them down Diamond alley to Gregg's store, and arm them with axe-handles or pick-handles, or whatever could be got; but the large majority of them were indisposed to do that, and we started off to the university building, across the way here, and two or three portions of the building were broken in in search of some drilling arms that the cadets in the university use. After a considerable waste of time there, they couldn't get the arms. We succeeded in getting them into line again, and we marched off to Gregg's. Mr. Gregg opened the door, and the line formed outside in the street, and some men went into the store, and they carried enough of those ax-handles to arm the crowd. When that was done, I turned them over to Doctor Donnelly. In anticipation of the formation of this company, I had given orders for a number of police to collect at the city hall, to the end that they would lead this company and precede them, and in that position go and attack the rioters. When I had put Doctor Donnelly in charge, I told him to bring his men to the city hall, and I would give him a police force to precede them and march at their head to go to the scene of the riot. I don't know whether the Doctor understood me or not; but his police force did go. His company didn't go to the city hall, and right here, permit me to say that you have heard a great deal about fifty men squelching this mob, and a hundred determined men. I suppose Doctor Donnelly thought he had determined men, and he didn't go for police assistance. Possibly he expected he could accomplish it all without the aid of police. He went; he was repulsed horse, foot, and dragoon. The next thing I saw of them they came to the city hall in a demoralized condition. I said to the doctor when he came there, says I, "Doctor, keep your men here. I understand that there is a company of soldiers on a steamboat at the lock. You and I will go up and see if we can get them." He got into the buggy, and we went up there. We saw the lady of the house at the lock, and she told me that these men had had orders to go into camp at the poor farm. We came back to the city hall, and was informed that Doctor Donnelly's troops had gone to their supper, and would be back after supper. After supper there came some eight or ten of them--they were there ready for action. That was all that came back, and so you see what fifty determined men could do.
Q. Did this company of Doctor Donnelly's go up there armed with anything else but pick handles?
A. I don't know. I think that after I left them ready to come to the city hall, that they went some place and got some arms, because they came back to the mayor's office with some instruments----
Q. Muskets?
A. I guess there were some muskets the university had used. I know the university authorities created quite a disturbance about their not being returned to them.
Q. You spoke about different parties coming there to suppress this riot. Who were those parties, besides your officers--I mean outside of the city authorities?
A. This meeting of the citizens.
Q. Who else?
A. I don't know any others.
Q. The sheriff and the county authorities?
A. I saw nothing of them on Sunday.
Q. You were speaking of those parties attempting command or change of affairs in trying to suppress the riots. Did you have reference to the citizens' committee?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was it the sheriff's posse?
A. I have reference to the county authorities, the Pennsylvania railroad, and the military.
Q. Then what was it you had reference to--the citizens?
A. No, sir.
Q. Nor Doctor Donnelly's command?
A. I think Doctor Donnelly's command went in good faith, to do what they could--they were not able.
Q. You said you were utterly hostile to all those parties in their efforts?
A. I said I was hostile to their plan of operations, because I didn't think it was called for at the time it was done, because I believed it would end in disaster, which it did.
Q. Did you make any effort to have any conference with these parties to agree on some plan that would be effected?
A. No, sir; they went to work independent of me, and had called out the troops without consulting me at all. I was at my office all night waiting if anything would occur, and I knew nothing of this movement to call troops out until I saw the dispatches on Friday morning.
Q. Do I understand you that because they did not consult you, you put yourself in hostility to all these parties?
A. If you understand me that way, you understand me entirely wrong.
Q. I want to know that?
A. I have time and again here to-day stated that I was utterly hostile to their plan of operations, and that I had nothing to do with them, because I knew I would be powerless with these men.
Q. You made no effort to see them or converse with them, and had no conference with them?
A. No, sir.
Q. Made no attempt to have any conference with them?
A. No, sir; I did not. I am satisfied they did not want me.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it not your duty as mayor of the city, to take charge, notwithstanding these men, and if they put themselves in your way, to take them and make them behave themselves?
A. No; I could not do that. The sheriff is the leading officer.
Q. Here among the powers, I find set forth is, "To prevent riots, noises, disturbances, or disorderly assemblages--" that is a part of your powers.
A. I will show you something stronger than that there. That is very weak--wishy-washy. Do not understand me as being offensive--you have got a pretty good-natured face, and I like to talk to you. There it is, "The mayor of the city, shall be its executive officer, and the conservator of its peace. He shall have and exercise within the city limits, the powers conferred on sheriffs of counties, to suppress disorder, and keep the peace.
Q. That is what I meant. Was it not part of your duty to take charge yourself, as mayor?
A. Not under the circumstances. I had been superseded by the power that had the whole county at its beck, who had without my knowledge, and, as I thought, entirely unnecessary, laid out a plan of action I could have nothing at all to do with.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. I would like at this point, for the mayor to explain why he considered himself superseded, having acted without his knowledge.
A. Why I considered I had been superseded?
Q. You say that they acted without your knowledge. I want to know why you considered yourself superseded?
A. I did not consider myself superseded because they acted without my knowledge. If I said anything of that kind I have been misunderstood. I have time and again tried to express myself upon that point, and that is this, that the sheriff of the county, together with the military, had taken possession of this matter, and superseded the mayor.
Q. Had you been so informed?
A. I was superseded by the dismissal of the police on Friday morning, and the taking possession by soldiers who had been called out by the State authorities.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Do you know the fact of your own knowledge that the police had been dismissed?
A. I know that fact from the statement of the police--made to me and to the office.
Q. That is the only way you know that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You received no intelligence of that fact from the railroad officials?
A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. Is it their prerogative to dismiss the police, or have you got control of them?
A. They were under control of the railroad authorities. They directed them where to go, and according to their orders they went.
Q. Have they got control, equal to yourself, with any police in this city?
A. Under the circumstances they had.
Q. You delegated that power to them?
A. They were sent there for that purpose, to do just as they said for them to do.
Q. You delegated the power to the railroad officials to have charge of these men?
A. I cannot say that I delegated them, because there were not over four or five that were under my control.
Q. Did you consider, under all the circumstances, that the railroad officials or anybody else had the right to dismiss police without consulting you, or had any control over them?
A. Under those circumstances, I did.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was that dismissal anything more than a mere taking of those warrants from the hands of the police, and putting them in the hands of the sheriff?
A. There was nothing of the kind took place, and now understand me: policemen, at the suggestion of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, were sent there during the afternoon and the night. They were there under the control of the railroad authorities, and when the railroad authorities did not want them any more, they dismissed them, which was on Friday morning.
Q. You understand they gave them a formal dismissal, and told them their services were not needed to keep the peace any longer?
A. I do not know in what form it was done.
Q. Was it not merely taking warrants from their hands, and telling these policemen they would put the warrants that were in their hands for execution into the hands of the sheriff to execute--was not that all the dismissal there was?
A. At that time no warrants had been issued.
Q. On Friday?
A. On Friday morning, when the police were dismissed by the railroad authorities, no warrants had been issued--no information had been made.
Q. After their dismissal, did you think then you had no further occasion to keep the police force there?
A. Not because they were dismissed, but because I had been superseded by the military and the county.
Q. I want to know why you thought you were superseded--were you so informed by either of those parties, either the sheriff or the mayor, or anybody acting for them?
A. No, sir; I was not informed by them.
Q. Why did you consider yourself superseded? Simply because they took action to suppress the riot?
A. They took possession of the whole business. There was no room for me.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Would not your police force which you could have gathered together have been some assistance to them in keeping the peace?
A. If the sheriff had asked me for the police as a posse to help him I could have given a hundred men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. I want to ask you this question, if you think that you can be superseded by the military?
A. If I am not?
Q. Yes; can you be superseded by the military in your powers and duties?
A. If I had charge they would not supersede me.
Q. Is it not your duty to take charge?
A. That duty had been performed by the sheriff.
Q. Is it not your duty to take charge of your police and put down any riots or disturbance within the city limits, regardless of any power on earth?
A. No, sir; in the event that the sheriff does not interfere, it would be. If I got possession first I would hold.
Q. Were you not called upon first by the railroad officials?
A. I was called upon first by the railroad officials to furnish them with ten men.
Q. And you acted?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Why did you not keep control?
A. Because they had taken it out of my hands by dismissing the police, calling upon the sheriff, and the sheriff called upon the State for troops.
Q. Then I understand you to say that the sheriff superseded you, in your judgment?
A. That is what I said a dozen times.
Q. Did the military supersede you?
A. Certainly they did.
Q. I want to know if you think the military can supersede you?
A. Mr. Chairman, you are getting too hair-splitting here. If I had charge the military could not supersede me--it would not be in their power.
Q. Did you not have charge at the commencement?
A. At the commencement I had, but on Friday morning I was thrown to the dogs. In the night they had sent for the sheriff. They did not come down to the mayor's office, where I was ready and waiting to hear what was going on there the whole night, but they went for the sheriff and they took him out.
Q. Did they not telegraph you for fifty more additional police?
A. Did I not tell you half a dozen times that I knew nothing about that--I received no dispatch--how often must I repeat that?
Q. Was it not received at your office?
A. I was told that they sent there for more men, and that they got them.
Q. Did they get fifty more policemen that they called for?
A. No, sir. Wait a moment, and I will prove to you that at supper time--after supper--they sent word from the outer depot to the inner depot that they would not furnish transportation to the policemen that went there--they had enough, and they did not want any more.
Q. You did not send them the fifty policemen?
A. I do not know anything at all about it. They got all they wanted.
Q. Now, in not getting them, they called upon the sheriff?
A. No, sir. I will prove to you they got all they wanted. They said they wanted no more, and they would not furnish transportation to the men at the Union depot; but if these men wanted to go they would have to walk.
Q. They did not get the fifty policemen. You have stated they sent for fifty policemen, and they did not get them?
A. I do not know that they sent for fifty policemen, but I have a moral conviction they sent for more men. How many I do not know. It may have been fifty. I have a moral conviction that more men were sent to them than they wanted, for they said so. Whether it was fifty men, I do not know. I do not think it was fifty.
Q. You were not at your office, and did not receive that dispatch calling for fifty men?
A. I was not at the office from quarter to five in the afternoon until eight in the evening. From eight in the evening I was there all night.
Q. I understand your position, Mr. McCarthy, to be this: that you may be superseded by the sheriff of the county, but not by the military?
A. No, sir; that is not my position, by a long slap. My position is that the military were sent here at the request of the sheriff--that the sheriff took possession of the business, and that the police were dismissed, and then I had nothing more to do with them. That is my position.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. That is, when the sheriff takes possession that then there is no further call on you or any further duty for you to perform--is that the position?
A. Under the circumstances as they existed at that time.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Why, then, did you assume command on Saturday evening?
A. Because I had reason to believe from what I saw that outside of the railroad property there was work to be done.
Q. It was not then for the purpose of protecting the railroad property that you acted on Saturday?
A. My good conscience, didn't the railroad company and the sheriff have one thousand men right on that ground, or thereabouts.
Q. It was not for that purpose, then, but it was for the purpose of protecting the city you acted on Saturday?
A. Yes; outside of that.
Q. What time was the information made by Mr. Watt before you on which the warrants were issued for these nine or ten men?
A. Sometime during Friday forenoon.
Q. Made by Mr. Watt?
A. I do not know. May be it was.
Q. Warrants were immediately issued, were they?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Placed in the hands of your policemen?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How long were they kept by the policemen?
A. Until Saturday morning.
Q. And no arrests were made?
A. No arrests were made.
Q. And then what was done with them?
A. They came there and wanted to take the information away--the law authorities--I think Mr. Housey was one of them. We would not give them the information--would not let go of that. Then they wanted the names of the men who were implicated in it for the purpose of getting out bench warrants, and they got the names. We gave them to them.
Q. Why were these men not arrested on Friday?
A. Because a troubled state of feeling had been existing in the community by calling out the troops, and I instructed the policemen to be very cautious, and if they made any arrests, an arrest any time before the meeting of the grand jury would be sufficient, simply for the purposes of this information.
Q. Did you not understand these persons were the leaders in the disturbances on Twenty-eighth street?
A. I would understand they were engaged in it.
Q. That was the charge contained in the affidavit, was it not?
A. No, no; it was not a charge. I think that the information was made under an act of Assembly, passed within the last two or three years, about people interfering with the running of trains. I think that was it, though I am not quite sure.
Q. Would it not have been better to have made these arrests as soon as possible, before the arrival of the military?
A. No, sir; I think, under the circumstances, it would have been a very bad move to have made these arrests. I was conscious, at the time I gave the warrants to the officer, that it was a dangerous thing, on account of the public excitement that had been created by calling out the troops, and I told him to be very cautious about what he would do, and I was satisfied he would be cautious, as to rush pell-mell, right up there, and snatch these men right out, would have created a disturbance at once. At least, I thought so.
Q. On Saturday night, when you went out and ordered all the police you could get, consistently, to the Twelfth ward, I understand you to say that it was not for the purpose of protecting the railroad property, but to protect the city particularly?
A. I conceived that the railroad property had eight hundred or nine hundred--at least eight hundred men there, for that purpose.
Q. You took these policemen, you say, to arrest men that were carrying off railroad property?
A. Presumed to be railroad property.
Q. Or carrying off plunder?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How many did they arrest?
A. I could not tell you. I suppose there may have been about a hundred.
Q. What was done with these men?