Part 52

A. My opinion may be different from a great many other military men. I look at it in this way: when troops are officered, it is the duty of the officers to do the thinking. If every man that carries a musket has a right to think and shoot just as he thinks, there is no occasion to have any officers at all, because, when we started out from the Union Depot hotel these Philadelphia men were insulted long before they arrived. Colonel Guthrie was insulted at Torrens, and if each man had carried out his own thoughts and commenced to shoot, it would have showed a great want of discipline.

Q. Would not the commanding officer be justifiable in giving the command to fire?

A. Most undoubtedly so. He would not only be justifiable, but it would be his duty so to do, and I have no hesitancy in saying, from what I have learned from the manner in which General Brinton's troops were received and treated, and the shots that were fired at them, the stones that were hurled at them, and the fact that these men were knocked down, it was his duty to have given the order to fire, and if I had been there I would have had no hesitancy in giving the order.

Q. What I understand you to say is, that there was not a public sentiment that would have justified the commanding officer in giving that command to kill?

A. The sentiment afterwards showed that the sentiment was directly against the firing.

Q. Do you mean to say that the civil authorities, the civil arm of the government, would not have protected the military officer in giving a command to fire under circumstances of the attack made there at Twenty-eighth street on the militia?

A. I have got to answer that in a twofold capacity. As a lawyer, I believe that the courts would most undoubtedly have sustained the officer. I believe that the mayor and his police were in direct opposition to the troops--after having heard the crowd state that the mayor and his police were in sympathy with them, and finding that no arrests had been made, and knowing the fact that upon every occasion that mayor's police were only too anxious to protect men up for disorderly conduct, that there was not a police officer to be found at Twenty-eighth street, and that no arrests had been made, although there was any number of chances to arrest for disorderly conduct and other offenses--finding that none of those officers were there, I had no other way to think that these men had said truly, that Mayor McCarthy and his police were in sympathy with the mob. I telegraphed Mayor McCarthy after the troops had been taken into the round-house--I telegraphed him, and I told him I thought his presence there might be the means of saving life. I believe then, and I believe now, that if Mayor McCarthy had come at that time and talked to the crowd, something might have been done. There was then a terrible feeling against the troops, and no feeling against the police. I believed then, and I believe now, that if he had responded to my telegraph, many valuable lives might have been saved. There was no sympathy extended to the troops by anybody outside of the sheriff and his posse. The sheriff and his posse were the only ones that gave any aid or assistance to the troops. He did all that he knew how and all that he could.

Q. Did you have any communication with the sheriff, after the firing at Twenty-eighth street?

A. No, sir; I did not see the sheriff after that.

Q. Do you know where he went?

A. I have no idea.

Q. You were in communication with him up to that time?

A. Certainly; he was at the head of the troops.

Q. And you, as commanding officer, were to protect him in making his arrests?

A. Yes; he was armed with warrants from Judge Young to arrest certain parties therein named, and we went out with him.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. You speak of an order you received from General Latta. Did that order purport to be signed by order of the Governor, sent by him as Adjutant General?

A. No, sir; it was not by order of the Governor; it was a telegraphic communication, ordering me to order out one regiment.

Q. Was it official?

A. I think so. I have not got it, because they were destroyed at the Union depot. I think the Adjutant General's report shows all those telegrams. I think that gives all the telegrams that passed.

Q. Did you, at any time, give an order to the troops to fire?

A. I am sorry to say that I did not. I am sorry to say I was not there when the occasion required such an order. If I had been there, I would have given the order, and in such a manner that the active rioters would receive their reward of merit. They deserved it, and they ought to have had it. I am only sorry to say I was not there.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You said the people expostulated with you about calling out the troops. What people were they that came to you and expostulated?

A. Oh, very early in the morning. Of course, the Friday morning papers had the order, and people came to me, at the Union Depot hotel, and say, "You ought not to do this thing; these men are workingmen; they have their rights."

Q. Were there many of them--more than two or three?

A. I was stopped on the street by women--respectable women. I was stopped in the streets by business men of the place.

Q. Business men of the place expostulated with you?

A. Yes; and after the firing, men came to me and insisted upon my taking the troops out of the round-house. I want to say this in regard--there may be an impression in regard to the manner in which the Sixth division responded to my order--that it may not be known to the committee that we have no direct way of calling out the troops--that is, by any alarm--not by a fire alarm or anything of that kind. An officer has to hunt up his officers, and they, in turn, have got to hunt up their men, who are scattered all over through two cities, and when I notified Colonel Guthrie, I found him early in the morning and he was hard at work, and they responded as promptly as any regiment could possibly respond. There was no way to get his men together any sooner than they did. They went to Torrens station, as per order, and I believe remained intact until the 6th or 7th day of September. I do not know of them having disbanded for a single instant, from the time that they were first called out, until the end of the trouble in Luzerne county, and the Fourteenth regiment, as I have subsequently learned, performed their service as well as a regiment could. They had been ordered to disband, contrary to the wishes of Colonel Gray and his officers, and nearly obeyed an order made by a superior officer.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. You knew nothing of the command which General Brown gave?

A. No, sir; there are officers who heard the command and know all about that.

Q. He did it upon his own responsibility?

A. Certainly. Had General Brown carried out the instructions he received at Twenty-eighty street, and kept the hill side and the tracks clear, with the plans I had adopted of taking General Brinton out, and letting him occupy the position, and sending a portion of General Brown's command to Colonel Guthrie, and used a portion for the taking out of trains, I think there would have been no subsequent troubles. Instead of that we found the ground entirely occupied and in possession of the rioters and sympathizers, and the result was just as you know.

Q. Could the destruction of property have been prevented by any other distribution of the troops that night, do you think?

A. I presume, had we known the fact that the rioters had converted themselves from men to devils, and had concluded to roast everybody alive, and gone into it in the manner in which they did, that something might have been done. Of course, no one could anticipate the fact that those men would send burning flames of oil down upon the troops in the round-house. No man living could ever think of such a thing.

At this point the committee adjourned until ten o'clock, to-morrow morning.

MORNING SESSION.

PITTSBURGH, _Friday, February 22, 1878_.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at ten o'clock. Mr. Lindsey in the chair. All members present.

* * * * *

Mayor W. C. McCarthy, _affirmed_:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where is your residence?

A. My residence is 95, Robert street, Eleventh ward.

Q. What official position did you hold in this city last July?

A. I was mayor of the city.

Q. How long had you occupied that position?

A. Since the 1st day of February, 1875--the last time--I occupied it before.

Q. When did you first learn of any disturbance at the Pennsylvania railroad?

A. On Thursday, the 19th of July, in the forenoon.

Q. About what time?

A. That I am not able to say, but I suppose it was in the early forenoon.

Q. How did you learn of the fact?

A. Mr. Watt came to me in the mayor's office, asking me if I could furnish him with ten men. I told him no. By and by--before I come to that, I will give you the police force and the disposition of it. Every person connected with the police force consisted entirely of one hundred and twenty, having a supervision over twenty-seven square miles. Five of them were simply lamp watchmen, leaving one hundred and fifteen policemen. They were divided as follows: One captain, one chief, two turn-keys at the central station, eight station-house keepers, eight front office men. These eight men were all the men we had in daylight, all told, the rest were put on night duty. One night watchman at the city hall, two roundsmen. These roundsmen are men who perambulate the whole city, for the purpose of having an eye to the different police, that they were attending to their duty, and we had one corner man--a man stationed at the corner of Fifth avenue and Smithfield street--and nine lieutenants, and eighty-two patrolmen. These eighty-two patrolmen are men whose metes and bounds were set out to travel. We had one hundred and fifteen police of all kinds, classes, and individuals.

Q. How much ground was covered by each one of these patrolmen?

A. Some less and some more, if you knew the city I think you would know it. Well, take for instance, starting at the corner of Fourth avenue and Smithfield street, go following the cars down to the river; downwards, go down Fourth avenue in that direction and you cross Wood street, and you cross Market street, and you come to Ferry street, then you go along Ferry street, which may be called the lower end of town, to Second, then you reverse and come up this way, you come to Smithfield street, and you walk up to the corner of Fourth avenue and Smithfield street, the place of beginning, a route that really would be too much for two men, one man had to do it.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. How much ground would a man have to cover taking in all the side streets?

A. He would have to cover six squares, and extraordinarily large squares at that, and I think that it would take him over twenty minutes to rapidly walk it.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. These police were night watchmen then all of them?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had you before that had any day police?

A. Oh, yes. Previous to that, altogether the whole police force of policemen, including ten lamp-watchmen, consisted of two hundred and twenty-six men, and in consequence of the heavy taxation, and the absolute inability of the treasurer to pay for the policemen, they were compelled to cut it down one hundred and eleven men, or rather one hundred and sixteen men altogether--I am talking about policemen, I leave the lamp watchmen out--and then there was a deficiency of sixteen to eighteen thousand dollars for the year.

Q. When was that done?

A. That was done on the 1st of July, or thereabouts, maybe a little before that.

Q. You may state what occurred when Mr. Watt came to your office, on Thursday, the 19th?

A. Mr. Watt came and stated that he wanted ten men. I told him I couldn't furnish him ten men. I would furnish him with what we could, but if he would pay for them, we could pick up some of those discharged policemen who were not employed, and he very promptly answered that he would pay for them. So I told Detective McGovern and some others to take what they could, and all our own men, and fill up with the idle policemen, and that the policemen would be paid by Mr. Watt. Mr. Watt requested me to go up with them, which I declined to do. I couldn't see any reason why the mayor of the city of Pittsburgh should go to the Pennsylvania depot to take cognizance of a disturbance that only required ten men, in his own opinion, and I sent a very faithful and one of the best officers in charge of the men, Detective McGovern, a very clear-headed man.

Q. What did he say as to the extent of the disturbance up there?

A. He made no remarks about that.

Q. Did you ask him anything about it?

A. No, sir. Gave him what he asked for.

Q. Was any report made to you by Officer McGovern.

A. Oh, yes. We had reports all the time from that until this morning. Officer McGovern reported to me--I cannot say whether it was McGovern, or who it was--but the first intimation I had of any violence was a report come to me that a man by the name of McCall had struck Mr. Watt; that he was arrested and taken to the station-house by the police. Then I heard afterwards from this time out--what I have got to say about Thursday will be hearsay. You can produce evidence and substantiate whatever I may say--I heard there was a train somewhere about three o'clock to go out, and the police aboard the train told the engineer they would protect him. The track was clear, and the engineer refused to go on, and got down and left the engine in the possession of the police.

Q. What police was on the train?

A. That was in the afternoon.

Q. What police was on the train?

A. I cannot exactly tell you, but I think that Mr. Motts, Mr. Coulson, and some others were there.

Q. How did you obtain this information?

A. From the police.

Q. An official report from the police?

A. Oh, no. We didn't have that much red tape about these things. The only red tape we had was the morning report of the different lieutenants. I can produce the men; I suppose you will want them to verify it.

By Senator Reyburn:

Q. They would report to the lieutenant would they?

A. No; they were in charge of Mr. Watt. The truth is, these men are under the control of the officers of the Pennsylvania railroad, and I felt it my duty to send as many men as I could there, who were paid by the city, and the others had to be paid by the railroad company, as I told you, but all the men we had in July was nine men.

Q. Did you send any of those nine men?

A. Oh, yes; McGovern and White and some more of them--I am a little mixed; and there was another order given for men as I understand. I started Mr. Davis to get them, but on that I am not so clear--I am a little mixed on that; Mr. Davis, however, can tell. He told me he met me on Fifth avenue and told me an order had come for more men, and I started then from Fifth avenue to get them.

Q. Did you receive any word from Mr. Watt after he left you with the ten police?

A. Directly from Mr. Watt?

Q. Yes, sir.

A. No; not a word.

Q. Did you receive any telegram from him calling for fifteen more men or twenty-five more men?

A. I didn't receive anything of the kind; but I guess that must be the word Mr. Davis speaks about when he says he met me on Fifth avenue, and I told him to get the men.

Q. Didn't your clerks or any of your subordinates notify you that such a telegram had been received from Mr. Watt?

A. I don't know what Mr. Davis says he told me on Fifth avenue.

Q. For fifty men?

A. No, sir; I took supper at Castle Shannon. I left at a quarter to five, and came back at eight, and then there were some persons from the Pennsylvania had been there for policemen, and the Pennsylvania railroad got all the policemen they wanted. They got so many that they sent back word that they did not want any more.

Q. Did they send any such word to you personally?

A. No; I can prove it.

Q. I want just what they said about--the next that took place between you and the officers?

A. I got no communication directly from the officers of the Pennsylvania, from the time Mr. Watt had been there in the forenoon.

Q. Did you receive any telegram from Mr. Watt calling for fifty police?

A. I didn't.

Q. Were you notified by your clerks or subordinates that such a telegram had been received at your office?

A. Not in the shape you put it.

Q. Did you see Mr. Watt after he left with the ten men?

A. No, sir; I don't think that I did. I have no recollection of it whatever. I don't believe I did.

Q. Where were you from eight o'clock Thursday night, during the balance of the night?

A. I was at the office, and in the neighborhood.

Q. Were any reports made to you during the night, from the policemen?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In regard to the situation?

A. Yes; that everything was quiet.

Q. From what men?

A. I cannot name them, but I can bring the men here who were there to testify. Let me tell you what the police told me--the men that were out there.

Q. It is hearsay evidence. I think it is hardly proper?

A. Hear my statement, then, for your own guidance.

Q. I understand you to say that you didn't receive any dispatch from Mr. Watt, calling for fifty men, nor it was not communicated about in that form?

A. No, sir; it was not. Nothing of that kind occurred. He may have sent a dispatch, but I think I can very conscientiously affirm that I never saw it.

Q. Do you allow your clerks to act upon intelligence received at the office, without instructions from you?

A. Most undoubtedly. When I am away a riot or disturbance ought not to be going along until I come back. They know the general rules I act upon.

Q. Communications, in the shape of letters and dispatches, are they placed on file in your office, when received in your absence?

A. No, sir; not placed on file at any time. They are attended to and thrown away.

Q. Attended to by your clerks?

A. Yes; the chief of police and the clerks. If I am up in the Eleventh ward, they would have to wait an hour and a half until I got down.

Q. If a dispatch was received at your office, notifying you of a disturbance in one part of the city, and you are in another part of the city?

A. It would be attended to.

Q. It would be attended to without notifying you of the fact?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You have telegraphic communications to all parts of the city, I suppose--stations?

A. With the station-house. We have got one station-house in the Thirty-sixth ward, Thirtieth ward, one in the Twenty-first, and one in the Second, or rather the telegraph is in the Third, one in the Eleventh, one in the Twelfth, and one in the Fourteenth, one in the Seventeenth, and one in the Nineteenth.

Q. Did you receive any reports during the night--Thursday night?

A. Yes; and everything was quiet.

Q. What officer had charge of that part of the city near Twenty-eighth street--what police officer?

A. Lieutenant Coates had.

Q. Did you receive any reports from him during the night?

A. I do not know that I did.

Q. Were there any affidavits made before you against parties--against any disorderly conduct?

A. There was on Friday forenoon.

Q. Did you issue warrants for that?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. For how many?

A. Well, I guess there was eight or nine, maybe more--I have forgotten.

Q. In whose hands were those warrants placed to execute?

A. I cannot tell distinctly, but I think it was in the hands of Mr. McGovern.

Q. Did he execute the warrants? What instructions did you give him about that?

A. I told him that in consequence of the calling out of the soldiers that the public mind excited, and it would be very dangerous to act as we usually acted, and for him to be exceedingly cautious, and cause no disturbance.

Q. When you placed the warrants in his hands, what instructions did you give him?

A. That is what I gave him.

Q. Had the soldiers been called out?

A. Yes; I was perfectly astonished when I took up the newspapers. Here was a whole lot of telegraphic dispatches, that had been flying from one end of the State to the other.

Q. On Thursday morning or Friday morning?

A. On Friday morning.

Q. You did not tell him to make the arrests?

A. Absolutely?

Q. Yes?

A. No, sir; I knew too much for that. The policemen at any time create a riot in the street by going at it brashly, and after the soldiers were in it, I thought it very dangerous.

Q. Why?

A. Because they were under the control of men who were rather of the narrow gauge pattern, about 2×3.

They were men who knew no law but the law of force, and had no knowledge that truculent defiance always begets truculent defiance. Had the force been in the hands of men who thought with Coleridge, when he said:

"He prayeth well who loveth well, Both man, and bird, and beast."

Had it been in the hands of men, who had any idea like Coleridge, there would not have been a life lost, nor a dollar of property destroyed, in my deliberate opinion.

By Mr. Means:

Q. You speak of those two or three, do you allude to the military now?

A. I allude to the men assuming charge--that had control of the force after I was displaced by the military and counsel.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Did you not have charge of these in the beginning of the riot or disturbance?

A. No, sir.

Q. Why not?

A. Because Mr. Watt came over and asked for ten men, and they were given to him.

Q. He asked you to go out, didn't he?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You refused?

A. I did, for the reason that I could see no reason from anything he said that the mayor should start out to take charge of ten men, and control it--it must have been a very small affair.

Q. You received notice that another call had been made by Mr. Watt, didn't you?

A. No, sir; I have reason to believe, from what I heard--that Mr. Davis informs me--that I told him to go ahead and send them.

Q. Didn't Mr. Watt inform you that your presence could do a good deal towards quelling the disturbance there?

A. Not that I can remember.

Q. Would not it have had that effect, in your opinion?

A. Indeed, I do not know. I think a disturbance that in Mr. Watt's opinion only required ten men, didn't require the city to go there in the person of the mayor, because it was a very slight affair, as he represented it--it made no impression upon me.

Q. A man, such as Mr. Coleridge described in that quotation you have made, would have had that effect?

A. No, sir; he would have been called upon, and if he had been asked to call for troops, it would have come in. Let me say about calling for troops, that if Mr. Mackey and Mr. Hartranft--but I should say Governor Hartranft and Mr. Mackey--had been in Harrisburg, there would not have been a troop brought here, and peace would have been preserved, but, unfortunately, neither of these two gentlemen were there. Let me tell you, sir, we had a puddler's strike here, and that I had some hand in, and the peace of the city was preserved; and notwithstanding the peace of the city was preserved all the time, some person, I don't know who, sent a request to the Governor for troops, that the peace of the city was disturbed and it could not be preserved. Mr. Hartranft did not know what to do, so he sent for Mr. Mackey. Mr. Mackey came to him and told him, says he, "Wait a few minutes, and I will let you know what to do." Mr. Mackey told him----

Q. Are you testifying to facts within your knowledge?

A. Within my knowledge. Mr. Mackey telegraphed to a gentlemen that I know very well, as to what the condition of affairs was. The gentleman telegraphed back that it was idle and futile to send soldiers here, and it would only create a disturbance. They could keep them away. They were kept away, and there was not a man killed, and not a dollar's worth of property destroyed.

Q. When was that?

A. It was two years ago.