Part 46

Q. What class of men were engaged in the actual burning and pillage so far as----

A. So far as I observed, and judging by appearance, it was about the class of men you see going backwards and forwards on the railroads and thoroughfares, known as tramps.

Q. Did you see any of the railroad employés with whom you had conversations before and were acquainted?

A. I saw some there; yes, sir. They appeared to be lookers-on only.

Q. Not engaged in the actual arson and riot?

A. No, sir; I did not see one of them that had anything except what appeared to belong to him.

Q. Were any engaged in burning and setting afire?

A. Not that I saw--none that I had any acquaintance with.

Q. Did you meet any of them to have conversation with them on that day?

A. Yes; Sunday I saw a great many of them.

Q. How did they talk then?

A. They appeared to regret very much that there was any destruction of property.

Q. Have you talked with them since any?

A. Yes: I talked--I believe three days out of six I am more or less on the railroads, and acquainted with a great many railroad men. It has pretty much ceased to be the subject of conversation now, but for a time afterwards it was the principal topic.

Q. Did you ascertain from them, or from any reliable source, whether they had anything to do with the attack that was made on the Philadelphia troops at Twenty-eighth street on Sunday, when the firing took place?

A. I have never seen any of them that acknowledged having anything to do with making that attack on the troops. They spoke of it as the attack having been made by--well, tramps and roughs they called them. There was a pretty strong organization among the men on the north side of the river to prevent any force coming over to shoot the Pennsylvania boys, or, as they termed them, P.R.R. boys. That is the way they talked about it. They did not propose to have anybody coming in there to shoot them down. That was a pretty thoroughly organized force.

Q. That is, to stop the trains having troops in?

A. Yes; and they were expected in with troops. That occurred in the immediate neighborhood where I live. The whole region was patrolled.

Q. Patrolled by the railroad men?

A. By the railroad men; yes, sir.

Q. Did you learn from these men where the first strike was to be made?

A. No. They talked of it as though it would be a general uprising throughout the whole country. They did not designate any particular place.

Q. You did not get the particulars?

A. I never heard the particular place designated as to how it would start, but simply it would be a strike; that they would all quit work; not work themselves nor allow others to work, and block travel and traffic in that way, expecting as the result it would bring the managers of railroads to their terms.

Q. You travel on the roads a great deal you say, and have a great deal of shipping?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. From your knowledge was there a less amount of work to be done on the railroads by the men than there had been formerly?

A. There appeared to be a very decided falling off in through traffic; the local traffic is holding its own, perhaps; furnace work and mineral traffic appeared to be about the same as it had been.

Q. It was in the through traffic that there was a falling off?

A. Principally in the through traffic.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Who was in command of this armed force you speak of that was on the other side of the river?

A. I never heard the commander's name mentioned. Those men whom I met in the street in my neighborhood said that their commander says so and so, and requested citizens to keep away--that the trains were about due--that the commander says so and so. I do not know who the commander was.

Q. They had apparently an organization?

A. They had apparently an organization, and obeyed instructions, perhaps, as well as the soldiers on this side.

Q. What train had that reference to?

A. The Erie train.

Q. With troops?

A. The train that was expected to arrive with troops.

Q. What steps did this armed force take to prevent trains from coming from Erie to assist the military?

A. The plan that they had proposed was to give the signal to that train and stop it.

Q. But if that was not heeded?

A. They had a rifle pit shortly above there, and if the train had not heeded the signals they would have undoubtedly fired into it.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was the man who was called Boss Ammon--was he in command of that force?

A. I did not hear Ammon's name mentioned in connection with the matter to any extent until the day following. I know that Ammon was not installed in the dispatcher's office on that side until the Sunday. This attempt to stop the Erie train was on Saturday night, and Sunday afternoon Ammon was installed as head man in the dispatcher's office. I did not hear that name. I have no recollection of hearing his name mentioned in connection with the matter at all, until some time during the forenoon of Sunday. I had heard of a man of that name; but did not know he was in this part of the country at all. I did not know who their commander was Saturday night. The name was not mentioned, except as I spoke of, as our commander says so and so, and requested people to keep out of the way in a certain locality in the immediate vicinity of the station.

Q. What time did that organization first show itself in Allegheny to stop trains with troops?

A. That was on Saturday night.

Q. When was the first freight train stopped?

A. Friday; I think it was Friday morning.

By Mr. Dewees:

Q. Did you see any trenches dug along the road?

A. Strawberry lane; yes, sir.

Q. What was the object of that?

A. To intercept the Erie train in the event of their disobeying the signal.

Q. Were they along the road, or across the road?

A. Parallel with the road.

Q. Where is Strawberry lane?

A. It is in the Ninth ward of Allegheny City--one of the lower wards.

Q. Who put in the rifle pits?

A. The railroaders--strikers.

Q. This mob?

A. It did not partake of the nature of a mob over there. It was a very thoroughly organized force--armed and equipped.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. How many railroad men did you converse with, do you think, that led you to form your conclusions?

A. On the different roads, perhaps fifty men.

Q. What class of men principally?

A. They were conductors and engineers, chiefly, I talked with.

Q. Any brakemen?

A. With many brakemen.

Q. Fifty men on the different roads that you have mentioned before--you mentioned the roads?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. When did that restlessness begin to show itself among the men?

A. Began to manifest itself in the latter part of May.

By Mr. Dewees:

Q. The persons that dug that trench, were they Allegheny railroad men or were they tramps? What do you suppose they were?

A. Most of them were railroad men. There did not seem to be many tramps connected with those men over there. These men were acting on their own account, and did not ask anybody to help them. They said they were working for the right, and appeared to be very earnest. They were very orderly.

Q. Things were done systematically?

A. Things were done very systematically.

By Mr. Engelbert:

Q. Were these men in the employ of the railroad company or were they discharged men?

A. There were a few discharged men. Of course I do not know how many of them were discharged, but from their talk I got the impression that there were some six or eight that had been discharged.

Q. That was a part of the grievances?

A. Yes; that was the object--to have them re-instated. They made that one of the conditions--of those men going to work again. I was amongst these men a great deal during the time that they were discharging them and reducing the work. I was very desirous that they should go to work, for as long as they were not at work it brought a class of people in our part of the city that I did not want to have around there. I knew if they went to work, and the trains were moved--I talked with them whenever I could--they would all gather about me.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. You say you thought you could have named within ten days of when the strike would take place. Did you hear anything about the proposed strike of the 27th of June that was talked about by the Trainmen's Union?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. You heard them talk about that?

A. I heard them talk about that.

Q. Did you hear the railroad men fix that time or talk about that time as there would likely be a strike?

A. There seemed to be a difference of opinion in their views as to that being the right time. They would talk of it in that way--some thought it would be a good time, and others did not.

Q. Did you ever hear them name any special day, or any particular time when there would likely be a strike, or when there would probably be a strike?

A. After the 27th of June they felt pretty certain that it would be sometime not far from the middle of July. They talked like this. They wanted the money for the work that had been done during the month of June before they struck. If they had their money in their pocket it would be fortifying themselves.

Q. What time was the pay day of the railroad company?

A. I believe the usual pay day--of course it varies along the line of the road--I think on most of the roads they commence paying sometime from the seventh to the tenth, and go along various places until they get paid.

Q. You supposed from that that probably if the strike occurred it would probably occur pretty soon after they got their pay?

A. As soon as the men along the line of the road had been paid off.

Q. Was there anything done by the railroad men on your side of the river that you know of towards organizing for the strike, or committing any overt act until after the strike occurred here?

A. I think the trains had been moving regularly up to that time.

Q. It did not really break out there--no overt act was done nor any trains prevented from going out until the Saturday after the Thursday it broke out on this side?

A. It broke out here on Thursday, and I think the first there was Friday morning.

Q. Were you talking or did you talk on this Thursday or Friday with those classes of railroad men you had previously had conversation with, in regard to what was going on?

A. On Friday I had some talk. I went out on a train that leaves here at nine o'clock in the morning, on the Fort Wayne road, and had considerable talk with some of the freight train conductors.

Q. What did they say about the difficulties that had occurred here?

A. There is a schedule of quite a number of freights following immediately after that passenger train, and of course they talked about the strike being in fact over here, and talked with some of the men at the station before the train left there. I was on the lookout to see whether the trains were moving out, and the trains appeared to be ready to go out. When I got some thirty-five or forty miles up the road, the conductor on the train I was on told me that the freights that would follow immediately after the nine o'clock train, had been intercepted, and that the strike had organized.

Q. As this strike finally did take place, there was no general understanding on all the roads that it should take place on each railroad on a certain day, that you found out. It did not actually take place on the different roads on the same day?

A. No; I do not think the strike became general throughout the country until, perhaps, three--it may have been four--days after its first commencement. The first general demonstration was on the Baltimore and Ohio road.

Q. You heard nothing in any of these conversations of any fixed day after the 27th of June--any date named?

A. As I said early in my testimony here, I do not know that I could fix the hour or the day, but I think I could have named the time within ten days, from the information I had in talking with the various employés, and that was, to wait until the payments had been pretty generally made on all the roads throughout the country--that seemed to be the time.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Did the railroad strikers in Allegheny City, on the Fort Wayne and Chicago railroad, show any disposition to destroy property or commit any violence or illegal acts except stopping the trains?

A. No, sir; there was a great effort made upon their part to preserve all property--railroad property and private property.

Q. They made efforts to prevent the destruction of property?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Private property and railroad property?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. In what way or what efforts did they make?

A. On Sunday afternoon the report became current over there that these destructionists--I do not know what else to call them--were coming to Allegheny, and the railroad men talked amongst themselves like this: That this is the employment we are living on, and it shall not be destroyed; we will take care of it. The trade of the road is such there that from the upper end, or what is known as the outer depot, cars and locomotives and everything--I suppose they run twenty miles up--laying on the tracks, and within a very brief space of time there was some fourteen or fifteen miles of locomotives taken entirely out.

Q. By the strikers?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. To protect them?

A. Yes; and they did protect them most effectually. Many of those cars were loaded with very valuable merchandise, and there was an armed force of these strikers who protected these cars--regularly stood guard over them--fourteen or fifteen miles of cars--every day and every night, relieved regularly.

Q. Did you see them or any of them commit any illegal acts--railroad men?

A. I suppose that would have been an illegal--would have been considered an illegal act to stop that train.

Q. Didn't they stop other trains--freight trains?

A. The regular trains were stopped.

Q. Forcibly?

A. Not forcibly. They seemed to be stopped at the dispatcher's office. If they got a permit they would allow them to pass. If a train went out with a permit they would not trouble it.

Q. Did they take forcible possession of the dispatcher's office?

A. I do not know whether it was forcible or not, they seemed to have possession of it.

Q. Did they use any violence towards men that were willing to run trains?

A. I did not hear of an instance of intimidation.

Q. Do you know of any effort being made to have trainmen take out trains?

A. I do not think there was any effort made. They appeared to be all of one mind about that.

Q. Did the strikers say they would prevent them from going out by violence?

A. I think I heard some talk that would amount to about that. Passenger trains were allowed to come and go as they had done before. A good many of the passenger trains stopped at the dispatcher's office to get a permit that would enable them to pass other localities where the strikers were congregated.

Q. That would be called, in railroad parlance, orders?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Who was the dispatcher during the riots there?

A. Ammon was known as dispatcher.

Q. He took possession of the dispatcher's office?

A. Yes, sir.

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Was he the man that issued these orders?

A. I think the orders were signed with his name. I never saw any of the orders. I heard the passenger train conductor speaking of them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. He was general superintendent and dispatcher both?

A. Yes; he seemed to be the principal man on that side. I have thought of that matter frequently since then, and it appeared to me that it was a fortunate circumstance that these men were willing to recognize some man as a head, if they had not done that matters would have been worse than they were.

By Mr. Dewees:

Q. Did the mayor of Allegheny City send a relief guard?

A. I heard that he did. I do not know that I ever saw it.

Q. You do not know that as a fact?

A. No, sir.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was not the force that he organized in other parts of Allegheny City at the bridges?

A. I suppose that is where his force was employed chiefly.

Q. Was there a general disposition manifested on the part of the citizens to quiet the troubles?

A. Yes; all the talk was with a view to get to work again.

Q. I am speaking of the citizens?

A. All the citizens desired to have these men go to work, so far as I talked with any of them.

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Colonel P. N. Guthrie, being duly _sworn_, testified as follows:

By Mr. Lindsey:

Q. Where do you reside?

A. I reside at East Liberty, Pittsburgh.

Q. What is your business at the present time?

A. I am a book-keeper in the Exchange National Bank.

Q. How long have you held that position?

A. About twelve years.

Q. Are you a member of the National Guard?

A. I am Colonel of the Eighteenth regiment.

Q. How long have you held that position?

A. Since 1874. I think my commission dates 1874.

Q. Just state to us now what orders you received, and when you first received them, and from whom, in relation to the riot last summer?

A. Well, on Friday morning, about half past four o'clock, I was awakened by a knock, and received an order, a telegraphic order, from General Pearson, informing me that by orders of the Governor, my regiment was ordered out for service, and ordered me to report at seven o'clock, at the Union Depot hotel. I have one company whose head-quarters is at East Liberty, where I reside, some five miles out. I notified them by hunting up the captain, and then came into town, sent off, the best way I knew how, to get my officers together, and notified them. They notified their subordinate officers, and assembled the regiment. It was too late to get any orders in the newspapers, they had all gone to press. It was too early to find messengers, and the work had to be all done by carrying messages from man to man, by the corporals and sergeants of companies. My command was ready at half past eleven o'clock, and by a little after twelve I was at the Union Depot hotel.

Q. With how many men?

A. I had then about two hundred and twenty-five men.

Q. How many men have you in all the regiment?

A. I have about three hundred and twenty-six uniformed men. Well, the regiment was formed in my armory. There was present, Major General Pearson, commanding the division, and the sheriff of the county. When I deemed that I had sufficient men for service, I marched down to the Union Depot hotel, accompanied by the sheriff. At that time I thought that my regiment was the only regiment ordered into service, and had the direction of military affairs, and so far as my regiment was concerned was with me. I had my own ideas what should be done, but when I got to the Union Depot hotel, Major General Pearson had ordered out the division, which made me a subordinate officer. My regiment was then ordered out to the stock-yards, five miles and a half from here, where I remained until Sunday night on duty.

Q. What time did you arrive at the stock-yards?

A. Torrens station--that is the stock-yards. I arrived there about half past one o'clock. We remained at the Union Depot hotel, waiting there for a consultation between General Pearson, the railroad officials, and myself, as to what was the best course to be pursued. My regiment was finally ordered out to the stock-yards, with the understanding that the Fourteenth and Nineteenth regiments would soon report, and they be sent to Twenty-eighth street. Upon their arrival at Twenty-eighth street, trains were immediately to be started. Sending me to the stock-yards was to secure the passage of trains through and beyond the stock-yards.

Q. That was the result of your consultation there at the depot?

A. That was the result of the decision of Major General Pearson. My opinion was that I should go to Twenty-eighth street, and the Fourteenth and Nineteenth go to the stock-yards. I believe no interference with the trains had been made at the stock-yards, and up to that time. If there had been, I don't know it, and there certainly had been interference at Twenty-eighth street.

Q. You desired to stop at Twenty-eighth street?

A. I desired to stop at Twenty-eighth street. I could have taken possession there without any trouble, I think, at that time.

Q. In going out to Torrens, were you interfered with on the route?

A. Not at all. There were about two hundred or three hundred men at Twenty-eighth street--I guess twelve hundred or thirteen hundred when I got there.

Q. You went out on the train, did you?

A. Went out on the train.

Q. Did you have any trouble or meet with any resistance in disembarking your command?

A. I had one company at East Liberty that I had ordered at once to Torrens station, and they had taken possession of the platforms there, and we disembarked from the cars without any trouble whatever, or any demonstration of any kind--not even noise. Everything was quiet and still.

At this point the committee adjourned until three o'clock, this afternoon.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

PITTSBURGH, _Thursday, February 21, 1878_.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at three o'clock, P.M. Mr. Lindsey in the chair, and continued the taking of testimony. All members present except Senator Reyburn.

* * * * *

Colonel P. N. Guthrie, resumed:

Q. When we adjourned you had got at Torrens station. I wish you would state to us how large a crowd you found there, what the appearance of the crowd was, and so on, and give your movements from that time?