Part 28
Q. Had the men any grievances or complaints to make outside of that, when it was talked of that a strike should take place on the 27th of June?
A. I believe there were.
Q. What were they?
A. In regard to the classification of engineers and the amount of pay they received, &c.; that was something I did not particularly understand at that time.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. The object of the brotherhood was to abolish this classification?
A. The object was to protect themselves.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. They considered this grading unjust?
A. Yes; they considered it unjust, which it certainly was.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You did not organize a strike for the 27th of June in regard to any future grievance.
A. No.
Q. It was the ten per cent. reduction and the classification of engines that induced you to arrange that strike for the 27th of June?
A. Yes.
Q. In arranging for a strike, what did the railroad men propose to do--stop all trains--just simply quit work?
A. In case of their striking, they simply proposed quitting work themselves--standing still or going to their homes, or wherever they wished to go. I never heard of any arrangement made as to what they would do.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were any resolutions passed in your body to stop trains?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were there any resolutions to interfere with the men who desired to work?
A. No.
Q. You said it fell through. What broke off that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June?
A. It was because it was generally thought it was not solid enough; it was not worked in the right way.
Q. How extensive was the arrangement--how wide did it extend?
A. I did not think it was very extensive; at least, I did not think it was very solid.
Q. Do you know how many organizations this Trainmen's Union had in existence--how many lodges?
A. I am not prepared to say; I do not know.
Q. Did it include all the trunk lines?
A. I think it did.
Q. Did it include all the employés of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. It included all those who joined the order.
Q. What other roads?
A. Most all the roads out of Pittsburgh; in fact, I guess all the other main roads.
Q. Where did that union originate?
A. I believe in Pittsburgh.
Q. When was it abandoned?
A. Previous to the strike.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Then there was no organization at the time of the strike.
A. No; we had no meeting for some time previous to the strike.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. For how long previous?
A. Not within a week, and that was very small. The meeting called last was called without the approval of the right party in this union. His attention was called to a poster struck up on a telegraph pole by a certain party, and I rather think it was put up just as a burlesque in the first place. There had not been a regular meeting for some time previous to the strike.
Q. Can you tell what induced them to abandon the union?
A. I have my own idea, but I don't know whether I am right. My impression always was that the railroad men, in connection with the Trainmen's Union, were afraid to attempt it for fear of being discharged from the road. I claim it was lack of nerve on the part of the men. I was discharged myself after the first trainmen's meeting I ever attended, and I am satisfied I would still be a union man if there had been any men with me.
Q. When did you first learn of the strike on Thursday, July 19?
A. In the neighborhood of eleven o'clock, in the forenoon.
Q. Had you any intimation of it before that?
A. Not in the least. In fact I was surprised, and I didn't believe such a thing was going on until I walked to Twenty-eighth street, and saw it to be a fact.
Q. When you got there who did you find there?
A. A few railroad men, and I believe a few policemen were there, and some citizens.
Q. How many railroad men were there?
A. I cannot tell you that--I suppose twenty or thirty or forty or fifty. A great many of those men I didn't know.
Q. What road were those men working on at that time?
A. I think the majority of them belonged to the Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. What were they doing?
A. They didn't appear to be doing anything. They just appeared to be standing around talking.
Q. Was there any effort made to move any trains while you were there?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Were any made in your presence?
A. Not just in my presence. I believe they undertook--that is only hearsay--but I could see from Twenty-eighth street down towards where they started the trains west of Twenty-eighth street, and I think on Friday I saw a few engines apparently coupled to trains. Whether they intended to go out is more than I can tell of my own knowledge. I know they didn't go out.
Q. Did you see anybody try to start a train on Thursday?
A. No, sir; I didn't see anybody try to start a train during the trouble.
Q. Were you there during Thursday night?
A. I was not there during any night.
Q. What was the object of the men assembling at that point?
A. From the understanding I had from the men, after talking with a few of the men, it was that they had struck against the double-headers.
Q. Were those men members of the Trainmen's union?
A. Some of them.
Q. Why were they assembled in force on the track?
A. That is more than I can tell what their motive was.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they say about it?
A. Nothing particularly--nothing more than that they had struck.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you talk with them?
A. I talked with some few of the men I knew.
Q. Did you admonish them that it was wrong to be assembled in such large numbers there?
A. No.
Q. Was anything said about that?
A. Not that I know of. I was not in a very good humor just as I got up there. I had been insulted just before I reached Twenty-eighth street.
Q. By whom?
A. By Mr. Watt. When I reached there there were only a few of those parties that I knew.
Q. The Trainmen's Union, at that time, was not in existence?
A. They had not had a meeting for some time previous.
Q. Did they have any meetings after that?
A. Not that I know of.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was the organization formally disbanded?
A. It just died out. They had no meetings called of the order.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. When did this union start, to your knowledge?
A. It was about the latter part of May, I think, or the 1st of June.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. As a member of the organization, what action would your organization have taken in reference to that unlawful assemblage there?
A. My idea is that they would have discountenanced anything of the kind--any burning, or pillaging, or anything of that kind.
Q. Or any interference with trains?
A. That is more than I can tell. I cannot tell anything about what men will do after getting started.
Q. Would your organization have any means of disciplining the members of it who interfered with the movements of the trains?
A. Most certainly. Our order had a head.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You mean to say, in your organization, according to the rules and regulations of it, if they struck, they passed resolutions that no trains should go out?
A. I didn't say anything of the kind.
Q. Was it the intention of the men to interfere with the movement of the trains?
A. Not to the best of my knowledge. I never heard any such resolution, and I never heard any person speak of it that way.
Q. Do you know any of the men that did interfere with the movement of the trains who belonged to the union?
[Witness did not answer.]
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. In that arrangement to strike on the 27th of June--how extensive was that strike to be--how far was it to extend--what roads was it to include?
A. It included the roads running out of Pittsburgh, so far as I know.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. What roads are they?
A. The Pennsylvania railroad, the Pan-Handle, the Fort Wayne and Chicago, the Allegheny Valley, and the Cleveland and Pittsburgh.
Q. Was the Baltimore and Ohio not included?
A. I cannot say particularly.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was your organization notified of this strike that took place on Thursday, the 19th?
A. No, sir; no more than what I told you, that I was met on the corner of Eleventh street, near the Rush house, and told of it, in the neighborhood of eleven o'clock.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. You said you were discharged on account of being a union man?
A. I am positive of it--at least the message I received bore nearly about the same words, but not just in that way.
Q. That, of course, was a grievance?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did your Trainmen's Union include the employés of the Baltimore and Ohio road?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that strike in pursuance of an arrangement made in your union?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. Was that formally communicated to your union here--the strike that occurred there?
A. No; nothing more than hearsay on the street.
Q. Did the members of your union make any effort to have those parties disperse and go to their homes during Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?
A. Not that I know of--no more than I did myself.
Q. What did you do in relation to it?
A. I did take some men out of the crowd at Twenty-eighth street, men that belonged to the Pan-Handle road. At Twenty-eighth street, that day, I was met by this Watt. He says to me, I want you to leave this property. Watt was the man; but I didn't know him only by sight. I thought, of course, he was an employé of the company. He said, I want you to leave the company's ground, and I asked him who he was. He replied that it didn't make any difference who he was, that he knew who I was, and my motive for being there. I said if he knew my motive he knew my business better than I did, for I hardly knew myself what I was there for. And after trying to give me a bluff, as I call it, that he was Mr. Watt, and employed by the road, I went up towards Twenty-eighth street, and there understood that they were going to send for what they called the Pan Handle roughs to head this trouble. I knew the great majority of those men--between eighty and a hundred of them were discharged off the Pan Handle road, and had been discharged prior to this strike. The majority of them were in town; some had left town; but a great many of them were here, and they were pretty lucky if they could get one meal a day. I didn't want to see any of them get into further trouble, and when I heard this I was afraid that some of those men would enter into this thing through persuasion. I went to them singly, and took some half a dozen out of the crowd, one at a time, and told them not to have anything to do with the affair. I said, I have been discharged from the Pan Handle, and you, and there will be nothing in this of any benefit at all. I took out six or eight men from different parties that had belonged to the Pan Handle railroad.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they mean by sending for the Pan Handle roughs?
A. They thought that a few men of that road were rougher than anybody else, or had more pluck. I don't know--it was a rumor I heard.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Those men you spoke to went with you willingly out of the crowd?
A. Yes.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Were you on the ground of the Pennsylvania railroad, or on public ground?
A. It was on their ground. I was walking right up the track. After this man was going to bounce me, I walked up to Twenty-eighth street, and I told him I thought I would have the privilege of standing there on the street.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by bouncing you?
A. Why, if I had weakened a little, I suppose he would have thrown me off.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Were you there during the day, Sunday?
A. I was not. I was not on the ground at all after Saturday evening--after one of our engineers was wounded very badly. I helped to carry him up Liberty street on a shutter. I was not on the ground afterwards.
Q. Did you see any considerable number of the Pan-Handle men or employés in the crowd?
A. Not a great many.
Q. Who seemed to be the leaders of the crowd?
A. That is more than I can tell you.
Q. What business are you engaged in now?
A. Not any.
Q. Do you reside in the city?
A. Yes.
Q. You are still out of employment?
A. Yes; and likely to remain out so long as some of these men hold their positions on the roads.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What position did you hold in this organization?
A. I was the president.
Q. You know nothing of this organization being in existence at that time on any roads except those that ran out of Pittsburgh?
A. At which time?
Q. At the time the strike was contemplated, in June?
A. They might have been contemplating such a thing, but the organization at that time, in June, was not so extensive as it got to be afterwards.
Q. Then it did increase afterwards and extend?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether it did exist on other roads in June?
A. I don't know.
Q. You think it started here and spread?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You say it started here?
A. Yes; I believe so. It was first organized here.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Were you here at its birth?
A. Yes; and I have no objection either as to being at the first meeting.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was it beneficial?
A. It had not got that far along, but it would have been, probably.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was it the object of this organization to control the railroad companies, as to wages and running regulations?
A. The object, no doubt, of the organization was to protect themselves, no matter what grievances might be brought up, if based on good authority. The union would attend to them in its own way, whatever it might be.
Q. In what way did they propose to protect themselves?
A. That would have to be brought up before the order before they could tell that.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Then there was no definite plan by which the railroad companies were to be controlled or coerced into coming to terms with the union?
A. No.
Q. That was left to be determined as circumstances might arise?
A. That is it exactly.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You said, a while ago, that this last meeting you spoke of was not regularly called?
A. No.
Q. You would have been the proper person to call it?
A. Yes.
Q. It was not done at your instance?
A. If it had been called it would have been through me. I had nothing to do with this poster on the telegraph pole; but after being on the pole for a half day, I concluded, rather than dupe the men, to let them meet, but nothing was done.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Do you know how many members of this organization there were in Pittsburgh at the time of the contemplated strike in June?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you know how many divisions there were in this city?
A. No.
Q. Have you any idea?
A. In Pittsburgh?
Q. Yes?
A. Three or four in Pittsburgh--three, I think.
Q. How many members belonged to the division you were connected with?
A. That is a question I cannot answer--I cannot tell.
Q. Can you give an approximate estimate of the number in Pittsburgh, at that time?
A. Four or five hundred.
Q. Was there not an understanding in the union, that whenever there were differences between the train men and the railroad companies, that the railroad companies were to be brought to terms by the members of the union, by striking on some particular day, without any notice to the companies, so that all traffic would be stopped?
A. I don't know of anything of that kind.
Q. Was there not some such talk, that that would be the most effectual way of bringing the companies to terms?
A. There was a great deal of wild talk among the men.
Q. There was no such proposal made in the union?
A. No.
Q. And no definite plan was adopted by the union to act upon the railroad companies in any way?
A. No.
By Mr. Engelbert:
Q. When any men wanted to become members of the organization, did they have to pay any initiation fees or dues?
A. They would have had to in course of time, but, up to that time, it was more a charitable institution than anything else. Anybody that had five cents or a quarter, and wanted to give it, could give it.
Q. There was no specific sum at that time?
A. No.
Q. Nor since?
A. The union is not in existence.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What do you mean by a strike--a railroad strike--what is the usual custom--what do you mean by it?
A. What I have always understood by a strike, is the men quitting work.
Q. You understand that they are all to quit?
A. Most undoubtedly.
Q. For the purpose of stopping traffic--the running of trains?
A. If that would stop it--most undoubtedly.
Q. Is it customary, in railroad strikes, for the men who quit work, to stop others from working, by violence or otherwise?
A. I have never seen it--by violence.
Q. Only by persuasion?
A. Only by persuasion. I have heard about a great many men being stopped, but, if our railroad men would get up and testify--I have heard railroad men claim that they wanted to work, but there was not one of them, that was not in the mire just as deep, while the thing was going on.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You mean the trainmen?
A. Certainly.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What class of men did you take into your organization?
A. Men belonging to the transportation department.
Q. No outsiders--no mill men?
A. I believe not.
Q. Had you a constitution and by-laws?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you got them in your possession?
A. I have not.
Q. Who has?
A. That is more than I can say.
Q. You don't know.
A. No.
Q. Have you a copy of them?
A. I have not.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Can you give us the names of any men that would be willing to appear before our committee, and give information about the strike or their grievances?
A. Yes; an engineer by the name of John Hassler, residing on Wood street, the second or third door to the left of Bidwell. I think he would be an important witness; also, an engineer by the name of William Robb. He lives in the lower part of Allegheny somewhere, but I cannot tell his residence exactly.
By Mr. Means:
Q. You say that the union does not exist now. Do you know of any other organization that is organized to produce the same effect.
A. No; no more than what has always been in existence. The locomotive engineers, of course, have their union.
* * * * *
G. Gilbert Follensbee, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In Pittsburgh.
Q. Where is your place of business?
A. On Fifth avenue--No. 42.
Q. What is it?
A. I am in the clothing business.
Q. In company with some other gentlemen, did you call on the mayor during the disturbance in July last; and, if so, give us the circumstances?
A. On the evening of the 21st of July, (Saturday,) between seven and eight o'clock, I heard that parties had got into some gun stores, and I went to my friend Mr. Bown, and then found Mr. Edward Myers; and after talking a while, we thought it would be prudent to see the mayor, and tell him that we thought it would be prudent to get a posse, and come down and protect Mr. Bown's gunshop. We saw the mayor, and said: "You are probably aware that some gun stores have been broken into;" and we implored him to send a posse to protect the gun stores.
Q. What reply did he make?
A. I do not remember his reply, but he seemed to be very indifferent, and I implored him, for God's sake, to do something, and that we three would volunteer, and that probably with fifty men or less we could protect Mr. Bown's store.
Q. Did you offer to be sworn in?
A. I volunteered to be one of the posse.
Q. What reply did he make to that?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Did he say in response to your application--did he say whether he had the policemen or not, or did he make any excuse that he could not raise them?
A. No; I do not think he made any reply in regard to his police. I was aware that his police were small and scattered around the city, and my idea was to have him swear in some of us as special police.
Q. Did he refuse to swear you in as special police?
A. He did not take any action in the matter.
Q. Did he send anybody to the store?
A. Not that I am aware of.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did the mob come there?
A. Yes; Mr. Bown left his store and came to my store, and while there, we heard the mob.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How long before the mob came down had you made this call upon the mayor?
A. Two hours, at least--two hours--an hour and a half or two hours. Before the mob got there, I went back to Mr. Bown's store, and asked him if there was no place to secrete the arms, and they took them down into the cellar and vault and secreted a good many of them.
Q. Did you see the mob?
A. Yes; I saw the mob in the store, but not in front of the store, because we had gone in the rear private way. We could see the store full of people--probably one hundred to one hundred and fifty were in the store.
Q. What class of men were they?
A. They did not seem to me to be any particularly riot element, so far as appearances were concerned. They did not look like tramps or roughs.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Do you suppose they were citizens of Pittsburgh?
A. I suppose so.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did they take away any more arms than they wanted themselves?
A. I do not think they left any.
Q. Was there any ammunition in the store?
A. I was so informed.
Q. What was done with that?
A. They took the ammunition too.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was the mayor aware of those arms and that ammunition in the store?
A. It was the most prominent gun store in the city.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Could any force of determined men have stopped the riot?
A. I am only speaking about that gun shop, and I think that from thirty to fifty determined men could have prevented the riot at that place.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You were willing to be one of them?
A. I said so.
Q. Did you tell him you wanted a force to guard that gun store?
A. Yes; I said for God's sake do something to protect that gun store. I looked at it this way: That it would be terribly fatal if the mob were to get in and get guns and ammunition.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did the major know who you were?
A. Intimately.
Q. You are intimately acquainted with him?
A. Yes.
* * * * *
William H. Bown, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What is your business?
A. I belong to the firm of James Bown & Son. Our place of business is located on Wood street, and our business is cutlery and guns and revolvers, and all kinds of sportsmen's articles.
Q. Do you keep ammunition, also?
A. Yes; powder and shot and caps and wads.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. Fixed ammunition, also?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What efforts did you make to secure protection during the riot?