Part 23
A. Some went out on a train, and some walked out. I went out with one squad, with Mr. White. We saw Mr. Watt, and he suggested the sending of the men to Torrens station, six or eight of them; the balance of them stayed at Twenty-eighth street.
Q. What time did you meet the mayor on Fifth avenue?
A. I suppose five minutes after the dispatch came. I started out and went down to the station-house to see if any officers were there, but I found none there. I then went two squares, and on my way coming back, I met the mayor on Fifth avenue. It was not over five or ten minutes.
Q. You informed him about the dispatch calling for fifty men?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where was he during the rest of that afternoon?
A. As I stated before, I went to Twenty-eighth street, and stayed there all that afternoon.
Q. Did you have any communication with him that afternoon?
A. No; everything was quiet at Twenty-eighth street that afternoon. My instructions were to communicate if anything was wrong. I went to Torrens station about four o'clock. Quite a crowd was there.
Q. What was the crowd doing?
A. They were watching to see if any trains would go out. It was curiosity.
Q. How many were there?
A. One hundred or one hundred and fifty, while I was there.
Q. Of whom was this crowd composed?
A. Of laboring men, and railroad men, and business men, and women and children.
Q. All mixed together?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were the railroad men noisy and boisterous?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Were they stopping the trains?
Q. The only one I saw stopped was at Twenty-eighth street.
Q. What time was that?
A. I heard the men saying it was three-forty, schedule time.
Q. They stopped it?
A. They started out, and three or four officers were put on the engine. After they started, some parties got on the track and waved their hands, and the engine stopped and the engineer jumped off. The officers were still on the engine after the engineer got off.
Q. You simply called for volunteers when you went out to hunt up those men?
A. Only one man refused to go.
Q. Was any demand made on the night force that afternoon?
A. The mayor instructed me to hunt up all the men I could find, both the men on duty and the men dropped, and I did so.
Q. The men on regular duty went out, did they?
A. Those that I found. At that time we only had one hundred and twenty men, including lamp-washers and station-house keepers.
Q. How many men did you get that afternoon on actual duty--the night force?
A. To my best recollection, five or six, but I won't be positive. I only sent in the bill for the men not on regular duty--twenty-nine the company paid for--for those men on duty we sent in no bill at all. It was only for the men not paid by the city.
Q. How long were those men on duty there?
A. Until morning. They reported at the office between seven and seven and a half o'clock.
Q. Friday morning?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All of them?
A. Some went home for breakfast.
Q. Were they sent on duty again?
A. They were sent out to the depot in the morning, but they came back and said they were not wanted, that Officer Fox had all the men he wanted.
Q. Who was he?
A. He has charge of the officers around the depot.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. He is an employé of the railroad?
A. I think so.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did he tell you that he had all the men that they wanted?
A. The men I sent up to the depot reported that to me.
Q. Who reported that?
A. Officer William Johnson. Several of them, I think. Officer Crosby. The men came back and they said that they were not wanted. He kept three at the depot, M. A. Davis, Matthew Goddard, and Ernest Ehring.
Q. Where was the mayor during the night?
A. When I came back in the evening, about seven o'clock, I brought the men to supper, and after they had supper, I sent them out again, and I went to the office. I am not positive whether I saw the mayor there or not. I am not positive about that. The next time I saw him, was in the neighborhood of twelve o'clock, at the office.
Q. Thursday night?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where did he remain during the balance of the night?
A. In the office. I stayed there also all night.
Q. Were you out during the night?
A. I went out and stayed until about ten o'clock, and then I came back.
Q. Did the mayor have any communication with the men out there during the night?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. Where was the chief of police during the night?
A. I cannot say that.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. You say you sent the men back on Friday. Where did you instruct them to go--to the Union depot or to Twenty-eighth street?
A. To the Union depot. I directed them to ask if they were wanted, and they came back and said that they were told that they were not wanted; that they had all the men they wanted.
Q. Do you know where the mayor was on Friday?
A. I cannot answer that, because I was at Twenty-eighth street, almost all day on Friday. My instructions were to go there, and if I saw a disturbance, to telegraph immediately to the city to the office.
Q. You did not see him on the ground at any time?
A. No--not on Thursday nor on Friday.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. While you were there, on Friday, did you see any effort made to take possession of the tracks?
A. No; no effort was made at all.
Q. You saw no disturbance at all on Friday?
A. No.
Q. Or Saturday?
A. No disturbance, until after the trouble about the firing.
Q. Was any effort made during Friday to run out trains?
A. Not while I was there--not on Friday.
Q. The crowd was there?
A. Quite a crowd was gathered there. They appeared to be going and coming all day.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. You saw no effort made on Friday. How long were you there on Friday?
A. I suppose I was there three quarters of the day--walking all along, and seeing what was going on.
Q. There might have been an effort made, and you not have seen it?
A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. It appeared to be an orderly assemblage?
A. Yes, sir.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What were they doing?
A. Standing together and chatting--talking.
Q. Standing there all day?
A. They appeared to be coming and going.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did the subject of conversation appear to be the stopping of the trains?
A. I did not hear them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What were they there for?
A. For curiosity, I suppose.
Q. Where is this William Johnson that you spoke of?
A. He is on the police force now.
Q. What is Crosby's first name?
A. George.
* * * * *
Philip Demmel, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. No. 26 Twelfth street, in the south side.
Q. What was your business during last July?
A. I was chief of the police of Pittsburgh.
Q. State whether any knowledge was brought to you in regard to the disturbance at Twenty-eighth street, on the 19th of July, and if so, state what time it was.
A. I came to the office sometime after dinner, and went into the mayor's office, and I was told that some of the railroad employés had gone on a strike at about Twenty-eighth street, and that Mr. Watt had sent for some policemen, and that about ten or a dozen had been sent out in charge of Detective McGovern. A short time after a dispatch came in signed by Mr. Watt, asking for fifty more men. I went on the street myself then. Our police force, of course, was in bed. They did duty at night. I went on the street, and saw a few of those discharged men, and asked them to go. Some went and some did not. I did not hear anything more of it until evening, when I came in from supper. They reported then that one man had been arrested, and after that everything was quiet. The men got their suppers, and we sent them out again. There were only a few that would not go. In the morning they came back--those who were on duty all night--and some of them said that the railroad officers had got as many men as they thought sufficient, and that the military was called out. It was thought at the mayor's office then that the services of the police would not be needed any longer.
Q. That the services of the police would not be needed any longer, you say?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did the mayor say that?
A. I do not remember that the mayor said that, but----
Q. That was the decision you came to?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. After a consultation with the mayor, was it?
A. I cannot recollect any direct consultation with the mayor.
By Mr. Reyburn:
Q. Was he there?
A. Yes, sir; but I am satisfied that he was of the same opinion.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did Officer McGovern report to the mayor during the afternoon?
A. I believe he came in before the rest came for supper, and reported this disturbance--about a man being arrested for striking Mr. Watt, and he then reported all quiet after that.
Q: Did he report to you by telegraph?
A. No; yes--I believe they did telegraph this arrest first from the Twelfth ward station.
Q. You have arrangements at the station-house to receive reports from all parts of the city, have you not?
A. From eight different parts of the city--yes, sir.
Q. From that portion of the city?
A. Yes, sir; there is a station-house within two blocks of Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did you receive any report from Officer McGovern during the afternoon?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was the nature of it?
A. That all was quiet--that this man had been arrested for striking Mr. Watt.
Q. Was there a dispatch sent you, or communicated to you from Mr. Watt during the afternoon, that he wanted fifty more men?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What time was that?
A. I do not remember--perhaps an hour after the first squad of police went out.
Q. What did you do?
A. I stated that before. I went out on the street, and saw some of the discharged men.
Q. Did you raise the fifty men you wanted?
A. No, sir; I did not raise twenty men. I did not raise seven men, no more than that.
Q. Could you not have got fifty men at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did you make any call on the night force?
A. No.
Q. Did you make any call for police--any demand for a posse of police?
A. Of the regular force?
Q. Or any force?
A. I simply went on the street, and around Fifth avenue and Smithfield street, and asked these men if they would go.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the mayor?
A. I think the mayor handed me this dispatch.
Q. Did he make any call for a posse of police?
A. No; no more than telling me to do as I did--to see if I could get the men.
Q. Did he tell you how the men were to be paid?
A. I do not know. That was one objection with these men. They wanted to know about their pay, and whether it was going to be a regular thing. I could not satisfy them about that, and they did not care much about going.
Q. You just went around and hunted up the men that would go voluntarily of their own accord?
A. Yes; after getting this report from the Twelfth ward station-house. We thought that fifty men would hardly be necessary anyhow; but we could not have raised them if we had wanted them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Could you not have got them if you had commanded them?
A. We could not command them any more than I could command you.
Q. Could not the mayor have commanded them?
A. He had no right to command them.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. He did not tell you to command any men to serve.
A. No.
By Mr. Dewees:
Q. What was the reason you could not get these men to go out?
A. Well, we had a reduction of our force a short time before, and some of these men thought that they were not treated right, and when I asked them to go out, they wanted to know if they would be placed on the force permanently. Of course I could not satisfy them, and they did not want to go.
By Mr. Means:
Q. At any time you were there, did the firemen call on you to assist them?
A. I saw the firemen only on Sunday, and it was understood then that the mob would not allow them to put water on the property.
Q. Did they ask the police officers to help them?
A. I do not know that they did. I was out there with the mayor, and we had too few men. The firemen would change their place time after time as the fire came down. A man came and said that they wanted to throw water on the fire, indicating a car burning, and the mayor said: "All right, we will protect you." We immediately formed the men to protect them, but afterwards they did not throw water on that fire at all.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where was the mayor during Thursday afternoon?
A. I saw him in the office, I think, once or twice.
Q. Where was he during Thursday night?
A. I think in the office.
Q. Did you receive any instructions from him during the night?
A. I went to him during Thursday night to place one of our lieutenants in charge over the force at Twenty-eighth street--Lieutenant Coates. It was his suggestion, I believe.
Q. At the mayor's suggestion?
A. Yes; or mine, and he agreed with it.
Q. What time was that?
A. About supper time.
Q. Where was he during the day Friday?
A. I remember seeing him in the office.
Q. Did you receive any instructions from him during the day in regard to this disturbance at Twenty-eighth street?
A. No; there was no disturbance there during that day. There was a crowd there, and the military were there.
Q. Where was the mayor during Friday night?
A. I cannot answer that.
Q. Where was he on Saturday?
A. On Saturday he was in the office. In and out as usual. At the time we got the report of the firing he was in the office, I know, because he sent for me and asked me to take a couple of men out Penn avenue, and close all the saloons in the vicinity of this disturbance.
Q. What time was that?
A. I think along about four o'clock.
Q. Four o'clock on Saturday he asked you to take two men out and close all the saloons in what district?
A. You mean what police district?
Q. Yes.
A. The third police district.
Q. Extending over how much space?
A. Over the city in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street. We closed all the saloons there from Thirtieth to Twenty-fourth street. We then came in and sent another squad out to close the balance.
Q. How far?
A. Down to Eleventh street.
Q. Had you received any instructions from him during the day, (Saturday before this,) in regard to the disturbance out there?
A. No.
Q. The saloons had been open out there until three or four o'clock on Saturday?
A. Yes; they were open at the time we went there.
Q. What time did you arrive there?
A. I can't tell. It was immediately after hearing of the firing. We walked up Liberty street as fast as we could.
Q. You went with the two men, and saw that your orders were executed?
A. We went in and asked these men, and told them it was the request of the mayor to have them close their saloons.
Q. Did they comply?
A. Most generally.
Q. During the day, Sunday, did you receive any orders from the mayor?
A. No; except I was out with him at the scene of action in the afternoon. The mayor was out there before daylight, and I was out there myself. I came in about six or seven o'clock, and got my breakfast, and went out at ten o'clock, and then I found the mayor there.
Q. Did you receive any orders during Sunday night from the mayor?
A. Nothing, except about handling the police, in trying to prevent the mob getting into those stores.
Q. What did you do to prevent that?
A. They called some of the south side police over, and had them doing duty around in places where they anticipated there might be a break made, but there was considerable damage done before the police arrived.
Q. What damage was done before the police arrived?
A. A couple of stores were gutted, on Penn avenue and on Liberty street.
Q. What kind of stores?
A. The one on Penn avenue was a pawnbroker's and the one on Liberty street was a gun shop.
Q. Do you know who broke open the stores?
A. Since then I know of one party that was a leader in it. But I do not know the others.
Q. Were any policemen in the vicinity at the time?
A. No; at that time there were no police on duty. They didn't go on duty until eight o'clock.
Q. Were any policemen on duty throughout the city during the day, Friday?
A. No.
Q. During the day, Saturday, throughout the city, I mean?
A. No.
Q. They were not on duty until eight o'clock, Saturday night?
A. No.
Q. Then these stores were broken open before eight o'clock?
A. Yes; that is, the first two.
Q. When there were no policemen on duty?
A. Yes.
Q. When did the mayor put on any day force, or was there any day force on Sunday?
A. On Saturday night I put a notice, by the order of the mayor, into two of the Sunday papers, to have all those ex-policemen report at eleven o'clock on Sunday, but got very few reports.
Q. How many reports did you get?
A. I do not remember now--not probably over fifteen or twenty reported in time.
Q. Were they placed on duty during Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any policemen on duty throughout the city on Sunday?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
A. Well, the third district had some of the south side police on duty on Sunday night, in the vicinity of Twenty-eighth street, and the police there I brought in on Sunday morning, and got their breakfasts, and sent them out again. Some of them strayed off, of course.
Q. As chief of police, can you not give us the number of policemen on duty during Sunday, in the whole city?
A. I do not think there were more than eighty. That is, we got more men on as it grew later in the day.
Q. This notice you placed in the papers was merely a request for the discharged police force to report at eleven o'clock?
A. Yes; I had the orders, and I think the mayor had consulted with the committee of safety, or some one who assured him they would be responsible for the pay of the police, and would see that the police stayed on.
Q. What time did you get that notice into the papers?
A. It was given to the papers on Saturday night.
Q. Was it published in the evening editions?
A. It was published in the _Globe_ and _Leader_ of Sunday morning.
Q. By whom was the notice signed?
A. By myself.
Q. As chief of police?
A. Yes.
Q. You say you got very few reports?
A. Very few; that is, at eleven o'clock.
Q. During Sunday night how many police did you have on duty?
A. I had all the old force, and I expect, perhaps, about forty or fifty of the discharged men.
Q. That would make about one hundred and forty or one hundred and fifty men during Sunday night?
A. Yes.
Q. How many did you have on duty during the day--Monday?
A. Well, those policemen came reporting in one after another from Sunday until Tuesday, and they never went off duty at anytime from Sunday night, from the time they went on, until about Wednesday, I guess.
Q. Where did the mayor spend the day--Sunday?
A. Along Liberty street, part of the day.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. About the scene of the riot?
A. Right there.
Q. What was he doing there?
A. All he could to prevent the depredations. He was with the police; but we could not do anything. He went to Union depot and made a speech to the mob; but that did not have any effect. They stoned him, and he had to get out.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. What time was that?
A. I do not have any distinct recollection of any time that day. It was, perhaps, half an hour previous to the burning of Union depot.
Q. Was he out there on Sunday when the fire was going on?
A. Yes.
Q. The fire commenced out beyond Twenty-eighth street and worked down this way?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men were engaged in burning cars, or in the actual destruction of property there, during Sunday?
A. That is a hard matter for me to say. The track in some places--I suppose there are three or four or five rows--and the freight cars were packed in alongside of one another, and on the top of those cars and in between them, there was a crowd of people all the time. Some of them may not have had a hand in doing any damage, but I think that most everybody that was on the track--of course there were some spectators that didn't have any hand in it--but the majority of the people there would break open a car or gut a car whenever they could. I could not say how many, but a great many, three hundred or four hundred anyhow.
Q. Were those men armed? Had they weapons?
A. I didn't see any weapons except a few revolvers.
Q. As chief of police, I ask you if you do not think you could have taken one hundred policemen, with their maces, or the weapons that they usually carry, and have thrown them across the track there, and driven back that crowd?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Because the crowd was on all sides, and I would not know how to form the men to do that to have a solid line. The crowd was along the track and in between the cars as much as five hundred or six hundred yards at a time, and they would come rushing in and yelling every way, from below and above.
Q. I ask you if, in your judgment, you do not think that you could have taken one hundred policemen and stationed them across the track in front of Union depot, from the hill down to the block of buildings, and have driven back the crowd as they came up?
A. If I had had one hundred men there that might have been accomplished. I did try it with what men I had.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. How many men did you have?
A. Not more than fifteen or sixteen together at one time. The policemen, of course, got around among the people, or the mob, and we could not find them.
Q. It was not possible to keep them together?
A. I could not keep them together. In order to get at the men, the policemen would have to divide, and it was such a big mob, we could not keep them together.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Could you not have formed at some cross street, say Fifteenth or Sixteenth street, and then have resisted the crowd and kept them back?
A. On the street?
Q. Yes?
A. Well, the crowd on the street was not so unruly as those on the railroad.
Q. But Sixteenth street runs up to the railroad. Now, could you not have formed the men at Sixteenth street and thrown them across the railroad, with one wing running out towards the hill, and then have kept the crowd back?
A. No; because you could not have got the mob together at any one point--because the mob most all the time extended five hundred or six hundred yards.
Q. To what point did the mob extend, coming towards the city?
A. Nearly into Union depot.
Q. Then could you not have formed at Union depot and kept them back?
A. It would have taken a great many more men than that.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was any effort made at all to get control of this crowd at any time during the disturbance?
A. Yes.
Q. With your fifteen or sixteen men, you mean?
A. Sometimes we had twenty--all the men we had, or that could be got together--perhaps, sometimes, twenty-five or thirty men. They would be getting in among the mob and trying to drive them back.
Q. Had the police authorities no organization or no arrangement to keep the crowd from coming, or did they allow people to come from all directions when they knew a disturbance of this kind was going on--did you have any organization at all?
A. Not a very good organization. The men went out there in the morning, and they had been up all night, and they were tired, and it would have been impossible to keep the crowd back. They flocked in from all parts of the city, and from the country for miles around.
By Mr. Englebert:
Q. In other words, you really had not any organization of the police force?
A. When I went up there, our men were scattered. I took them on the railroad several times, but was unable to do any good. I took them on the railroad in a body, but they could not be kept there any time without being separated.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was any effort made to make any arrests, during this disturbance, of parties engaged in the riot?
A. On Sunday morning, we arrested about one hundred and thirty--that was the beginning of the fire--when they began to pillage the freight cars.
Q. Did you arrest any of the parties that were pillaging?
A. We arrested them coming away with goods.