Part 21
Q. You judge from the number of trains and the amount of stuff you hauled?
A. Yes; our trade is peculiar. There are times when the through freight may be heavy, but at points east of Pittsburgh, the coal and other local business may be very light. We will start from Pittsburgh with an unusually heavy business, but it won't aggregate nearly as much when it arrives at Altoona, as on other occasions, when we start from Pittsburgh with a comparatively light business. I was present at the time of the firing of the troops, but about that, what I can say is about what Mr. King has said.
Q. If you were present at that time, however, you may state what you saw?
A. I was at Union depot when the troops arrived. I went to the outer depot, two blocks west of Twenty-eighth street. We kept ourselves advised by wire as to about the time the troops would move from Union depot to Twenty-eighth street. We were expecting that they would clear the track, and that then, if possible, we would get the trains started. We had a crew in readiness to go just as soon as they got protection enough to start. I remained on some gondolas there until the troops, with the Gatling gun, passed along up the track. Then I followed up. I didn't intend to go very close, but got much nearer than I had intended, and so got near enough to see the movements of the troops. I saw them form on Twenty-eighth street into what is called a square, and saw the confusion that Mr. King spoke about. I heard the shots very soon after that. I thought at first it was blank cartridges, but soon learned such was not the case.
Q. Have you any idea as to how many were hurt?
A. Seven, eight, or ten--and some killed.
Q. You saw this yourself?
A. I didn't see any myself. I saw them carrying people away very soon afterwards. I saw afterwards the man that Mr. King mentioned as having been hit in the face by a stone before the firing. While I was in the superintendent's office, after the firing, a report came that they were going to attack the arsenal, and also the superintendent's office. I afterwards went home and got my supper and returned. When returning, the mass of people at Twenty-eighth street was enormous. They were solid on both sides of the track. By the way, some soldiers were there, enough to keep the men off the track. I had intended to go up and walk to the superintendent's office, but found I couldn't do it with safety. I thought they possibly might want me, and I intended to go. I went to Union depot, and made an arrangement to get to the office. After that, I learned that the military had charge of everything. I staid at Union depot until ten o'clock, and left on the last train that went out. That was on Saturday night. About three or four o'clock in the morning I was awakened by a great deal of noise and hallowing, and saw a great many roughs passing my place, and heard wagons passing.
Q. Did they seem to be coming in wagons from a distance?
A. Yes; various wagons went past my house. It was three or four o'clock in the morning. It was getting daylight; and during all that day the people were carrying plunder past our house; and those same wagons returned during the afternoon loaded. I remained at home on Sunday, for the reason that they said they were going to commence at East Liberty and burn everything to Pittsburgh, and I thought that possibly my house might be burned.
Q. If you had succeeded in starting a train from Pittsburgh, would it have been able to get ten miles away.
A. All the trains that we started previous to, say, nine or nine and a half o'clock on Thursday, went through--went through all right.
Q. What do you mean by through?
A. To the destination, wherever it was.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. During this time, before the military arrived, was there any considerable effort made on the part of the police to protect you and your men and property?
A. No, sir; nothing at all equal to the emergency.
Q. What number of policemen were there in force, at any time, to protect you?
A. I cannot say that I ever saw a dozen. A small force of police were brought to the outer depot on Thursday, but it was after I had gone to Torrens, and I remained away the remainder of the day. It was after the time that we were trying to get out another train, when the men refused to let it go, and when Mr. Watt was struck.
Q. What were the police doing all this time?
A. I suppose the police were too weak in numbers.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. When you saw them they were inadequate to the emergency?
A. Yes; altogether.
Q. Up to Saturday night, any train that could have been started would have gone through to its destination?
A. No; only on Thursday. After Thursday, I think, no freight train could have gone through, because all the trains were stopped; and even the passenger trains were stopped at East Liberty and Lawrenceville.
Q. From the information that the railroad authorities had, they could not have run trains through to their destination?
A. I don't think so, after Thursday. The men allowed our trains to come west, but as fast as they came west they prevented them from going east.
Adjourned until Monday morning, at ten o'clock.
PITTSBURGH, MONDAY, _February 11, 1878, 10 o'clock_, A.M. ORPHANS' COURT ROOM.
Pursuant to adjournment the committee re-assembled at ten o'clock, A.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.
* * * * *
Charles McGovern, _sworn with the uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. On Boyd street, in the Sixth ward, Pittsburgh.
Q. Were you on the police force of the city of Pittsburgh, in last July?
A. I was.
Q. In what capacity?
A. I was a detective.
Q. Were you in the city on the 19th day of July?
A. I was. That was Thursday.
Q. Were you employed by the mayor as a special detective?
A. I was serving under his administration.
Q. Had you any communication with the mayor on that day with reference to the disturbance of the peace?
A. I had.
Q. State what it was?
A. A little after eleven o'clock on Thursday, the 19th day of July, Mr. Watt came to the mayor's office and had a conversation with the mayor, and after he was through the mayor called me in. It was my week in the office. We took our turns in the office. He instructed me to gather what men I could find and go out to Twenty-eighth street--that there was some trouble with the railroad employés out there on account of a strike. The week before that our police force had been reduced from two hundred and thirty-six men to one hundred and twenty, I think. That left us without any men in the day time at all, except six men that were employed in the office as detectives, and one man on Fifth street, and two specials, I believe; but on this day it happened that the men that had been dropped from the rolls were in the City hall for the purpose of getting their money. I told the mayor that I could not get a sufficient number of men to go out there to amount to anything, if there was any serious trouble, but that a number of these men were there, and that I could raise a squad from them if necessary. So failing to find the necessary number of our men--who were in bed at this time because they were on duty at night--I gathered ten men belonging to the force that had been dropped, and started out to the Union depot. Mr. Watt met us there and took us out to the crossing at Twenty-eighth street. He had some two or three of his own men there. When I got out there he told me what we were brought there for--that there was a strike in progress, and he anticipated some trouble with the employés--that is they would likely resist the running of trains. We were moved out to Twenty-eighth street, and at Twenty-eighth street, or a little this side of the street--that is, west--there is a switch. He told me he was going to move the trains, and I sent the men to protect those switches, and to see they were not interfered with by the strikers. I divided the men into two squads, and sent one squad to the western switch and took charge of the other myself.
Q. How many men were there in a squad?
A. Five; I had ten men and myself. Quite a number of the people there were boys, and there didn't appear to be much excitement just then.
Q. What time was that?
A. A little before twelve o'clock.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What were they, railroad men?
A. Yes; a number of them. Some I knew.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Could you mention their names?
A. One I recollect now. I knew him to be a railroad man. I had a conversation with him. It was Samuel Muckle. I talked with him. The leading men of them seemed to be disposed to keep the peace. They didn't want any trouble with the police. We didn't anticipate much trouble then.
Q. How many were there?
A. One hundred were there, but a number of those were spectators, who had just come from curiosity.
Q. How many were engaged in the strike?
A. I can only judge of the number actively engaged in the strike, from the number of persons that interfered with the first arrest that we made. That occurred when Mr. Watt attempted to open the switch to let the train out. That is where the first trouble commenced. As soon as he did that, a man named McCall, and another man named Davis, both of whom have been tried in the courts since--they jumped on to the switch, and one of them struck Mr. Watt. When I saw that, I was at the other switch. I ran down, and after considerable trouble, we succeeded in arresting McCall and in taking him down to the watch-house. Then probably there were fifteen or twenty persons that appeared to take an active part in preventing McCall from being arrested. They seemed to be very anxious to have us let him go. There were a number of stones thrown, and some of my officers were hit. I saw a number of stones thrown, and it was principally the work of boys. The railroad men wanted to persuade us to let him go, but we finally got him down to the watch-house. He resisted very stoutly. None of the railroad men attempted to use violence at that time.
Q. You placed him in the lock-up?
A. Yes; at the Twelfth ward station.
Q. How many of your men remained there on the ground?
A. After we locked him up we came right back there again.
Q. What occurred then?
A. Mr. Watt left then and went to get more men. Along about one o'clock, I judge, there were some five or six men came, in charge of officer White, of the mayor's force, and went on out to East Liberty, and my impression is that Mr. Watt went with them.
Q. How many men were with officer White?
A. Five or six men--also men dropped from the rolls. Then three or four--probably more--there may have been ten--came to my assistance and remained with me at the crossing.
Q. How long did you remain at the crossing?
A. Until about three o'clock. In the meantime there did not appear to be any effort made on the part of the railroad authorities to move any more trains after this assault at the switch, and my impression was at the time that they had given the matter up just then. There seemed to be a general disposition on the part of the railroad employés--the men not on strike--to rest easy, as it were. They didn't want to work. I heard the men talking with each other. They did not appear to make any effort to work. Those not engaged in the strike actively--they seemed to be in sympathy with those in the strike.
Q. What was the condition of the crowd there from one o'clock up to three o'clock?
A. It kept on increasing.
Q. How was it as to being demonstrative or boisterous?
A. There was no trouble there after this assault on Mr. Watt, because no effort was made on the part of the railroad officials to run out trains.
Q. Where did you go when you left there?
A. I telegraphed to the chief, in town, from the Twelfth ward station, that things were at a stand-still; that there was no attempt on the part of the railroad men to run out trains, and that the men were still stationed at the crossing, and he instructed me to place the men in charge of officer Fowler, and to come in to the central office. I did so after three o'clock.
Q. Did you go out again?
A. Not that afternoon.
Q. Did you receive any further instructions?
A. Not that day. The men remained there that day and night--all night.
Q. Were you present when Mr. Watt came to consult with the mayor?
A. I was in the office.
Q. Did you hear the conversation?
A. No.
Q. What did Mr. Watt tell you that time in the presence of the mayor?
A. I do not think the mayor was present at that time. It was in regard to what I was going out there for. He told me a few of the men were on a strike, and that they would probably undertake to interfere with the running of the trains, but he did not anticipate any serious trouble. He thought that a few men would be sufficient. He did not think it would amount to anything, and said that the presence of a few men would stop the whole thing. He looked on it very lightly at that time.
Q. After Mr. Watt went away it was that Mayor McCarthy gave you instructions?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you to do?
A. He told me to collect as many men as I could get.
Q. Of the force on duty?
A. There was no force on duty.
Q. From what source were you to collect them?
A. He told me to get as many men as I could get. He meant the office men. But they were only on duty at night, and at this time none of them were about except the chief of detectives, Mr. O'Mara, who was busy, I believe. I so reported to the mayor. I told him I could get a number of the men who were dropped from the rolls. He told me to go ahead and get them.
Q. How many of those men were there then?
A. I suppose there may have been twenty or twenty-five.
Q. You selected ten of them?
A. I thought that would be a sufficient number on account of what Mr. Watt had told me.
Q. You could have got more if you had wanted them?
A. Yes; I did get more afterwards. I think ten more came out. Of course we could not get those men and bring them into service as our men in actual service, because those men had been dropped from the rolls, and it was only those willing to go on duty or not.
Q. But plenty of them were willing to go?
A. Yes; they showed a willingness to go.
Q. When you got to Twenty-eighth street, how many men were engaged there then in preventing the trains from moving?
A. The first intimation I had of any men, who were going to prevent trains from running, was when Mr. Watt was assaulted, and then I should judge that those men actively engaged, numbered, probably, ten or fifteen--that seemed to be the leaders.
Q. When you undertook to arrest McCall, how many men took his part?
A. I suppose ten or fifteen of those men gathered around us, and wanted us to let him go.
Q. Did you arrest all of those who undertook to take McCall's part?
A. They did not use any violence at all. McCall appealed to them, and asked them not to allow him to be arrested, that they were there for the purpose of preventing the trains from running, and that they were not surely going to allow him to go to the watch-house, but there was not a man of them that attempted to interfere with the officers. The only interference was some stones thrown from the hill-side around. I saw some of them thrown, and most of them by boys.
Q. I understand, after you returned from the lock-up, you found the crowd still assembled at Twenty-eighth street?
A. Yes.
Q. How large was it then?
A. It was increased then, I estimate, to about the number of two hundred people, women, and children, and boys, and men.
Q. What were they doing at that time?
A. They were just standing around there chatting and talking among themselves. The excitement was still increasing.
Q. No effort was made to start the trains from that time until three o'clock?
A. When those men came from the office--the second force--Mr. Watt went up to Torren's station. I believe there was no person there that appeared to make any effort to do anything. Mr. Fox, the chief of the Pennsylvania railroad police was there, and I was under his instructions to do anything he wanted done. From that time, until I left, no effort was made on their part to run out trains east. There was an attempt made after I left to run trains out, but of course I did not see that.
Q. Did you command the crowd to disperse?
A. We undertook to keep the crowd off the tracks, but our force was not sufficient. As soon as we would get one track cleared, they would come in on the other. It would have required at two or three o'clock--it would have required a hundred men to clear the tracks, and do it effectually, and I did not have the necessary force to do it with. They appeared to loiter around there talking, and the crowd kept on increasing.
Q. Did you get any further instructions after you returned to the city and reported to the chief of police?
A. I got no further instructions, I remember, from the chief; he instructed me to turn the force over to officer Fowler, and report at the city hall.
Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, what were the movements of the police force there during the balance of the day?
A. During the balance of the day the force was increased to, I think, at Twenty-eighth street, thirty men--twenty-five or thirty men--during the evening. They remained on duty all night.
Q. Was there any effort made to run out trains during the afternoon of Thursday?
A. I believe there was.
Q. Were you not on an engine, and were you not driven off?
A. I was not; the officers can be got here that went on that engine.
Q. Will you tell us who they were?
A. Officer Saul Coulston and officer Robert Fowler.
Q. Did you have any further connection with the movements of the police?
A. Not in the capacity of commander or leader.
Q. Were you present at any of the disturbances after that?
A. I went through it all, backward and forward, around the city, in the capacity of an officer.
Q. Were the police, to your knowledge, reinforced in the morning of the 20th--Friday morning.
A. No, sir; the police force was not reinforced until Tuesday morning--the following Tuesday--that is, were not organized. Then the regular force was filled up and organized by the committee of safety. But a number of the men who were called on on Monday and Sunday responded. But the regular organization did not take place until Tuesday.
Q. They responded whenever the calls were made?
A. A number of them responded on Sunday, after the fire was going on.
Q. Was there any difficulty, so far as you know, in reinforcing the police force?
A. I know, from my own experience, that there was considerable difficulty in bringing the men dropped from the rolls when there was no trouble,--in bringing them to the front after the trouble commenced. A great many of them objected to going on duty.
Q. Why?
A. I suppose they looked on it in this way. I inferred this from the tone of their conversation--that they were discharged--that the councils had thought proper to dispense with their services when there was no trouble, and that, when they were in trouble they did not propose to put their heads into the halter. I know one of them left my squad--or two of them. One of them did not reflect that he might be taken to where he would get hurt or get hit with a stone. He left and the other left.
Q. What reason did he give?
A. He simply left.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. These men were not organized at all?
A. They had been dropped from the rolls the week previous. They were not bound in any way to the city.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did not a demand have to be made on them?
A. No, sir; I simply told them. Those that wanted to go, fell into line, and marched out as volunteers.
By Mr. Means:
Q. They could leave as soon as they wanted?
A. Yes; the same as any other citizens. They were not under pay--not under pay at all.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you not have the right from the mayor to demand them to go with you?
A. I did not know I had a right any more than I could command you to assist me.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you get such instructions from the mayor?
A. At the time we went out we did not expect any such trouble.
Q. But did the mayor give you instructions to demand them to go with you?
A. He did not think of it, and I did not either. I thought that the presence, as Mr. Watt told me--that the presence of five or six men would have the desired effect.
Q. Did you make any report to the mayor, during the afternoon?
A. I reported to the chief of police.
Q. That is the only report you made?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Who was he?
A. Philip Demmel.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Do you know of an order, given by the mayor to his officers, to compel men to serve on the police force, during those troubles?
A. I do not know of any order of that kind. I know of orders given by the mayor to summon all the men that had been dropped from the rolls, and to get them organized with the men we had, and go on duty. A number of them responded. That was on Sunday.
Q. What do you mean by summoned?
A. Just notified them.
Q. Compelling them to serve?
A. I did not understand it as compulsory at all. I did not think it was.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. It was simply a call for volunteers to go out?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you state to them anything about their pay--as to how they would be paid?
A. I do not know as I stated anything to them probably the first day, but the understanding was after they got out there that Mr. Watt was responsible for the pay of these men.
Q. The mayor did not make any call on the night police to go out there at all on Thursday?
A. Not on Thursday. The night men were not there.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. There was no effort made, that you know of, to get the night men out there?
A. There was no apparent necessity at that time. The night force went on duty on Friday night, and they remained on duty in and around the city hall until the trouble was all over.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. Going out in squads from the city hall wherever they were required to go.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did they serve during the day on Friday?
A. I do not recollect that they did. I cannot say that.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did they serve during the day Saturday?
A. I think they were on duty from Friday night until the trouble was all over. That is my impression. I cannot be positive, however.
Q. The night force numbered one hundred and twenty?
A. One hundred and sixteen men we had left for the whole city.
Q. Were any of that number detailed to go to the depot or to that section of the city?
A. On Thursday?
Q. Yes; or on Friday or on Saturday?
A. The men were on duty continually Friday, and on Saturday all the men were out.
Q. Where?
A. In the neighborhood of Twenty-eighth street, and along where the trouble was.
Q. How many were at Twenty-eighth street on Saturday?
A. I cannot say.
Q. How many on Friday?
A. That I cannot say. I suppose the chief would know.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. You were on duty that day?
A. I was on duty continuously from that time until the trouble was over.
Q. When you talked with those men, what reason did they give you. You have said you talked with one?
A. They assigned as a reason for striking that it was on account of the double-headers, slim pay, and so forth. That the men were starving, and all that kind of thing, and that now they proposed to reduce the force, and compel one crew to run two trains, and they did not propose to do it. Various reasons were assigned.
Q. Did he express any intention to use violence?
A. He did not. He and a number of the others had considerable influence over the men, and no violence was to be used at all. It seemed that the men not in the strike were in sympathy with those that were, and that no trains would be run out.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. When was this?
A. It was after Mr. Watt was struck.
Q. Did he take any part with them?
A. No, sir.