Part 17
A. That was all that took place between him and me.
Q. Did you remain in the round-house?
A. I remained in there until eleven o'clock, when I backed out, and came down and took out the train.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the strikers that day?
A. Not until evening.
Q. Whom did you see in the evening?
A. I had no conversation, no more than a man stopped me at Twenty-eighth street, and asked me what I was hauling.
Q. Were you coming in or going out?
A. I was going out on the last trip, at eleven-forty. I told him I was hauling an accommodation train. He told me I could go on, and he got down off the engine.
Q. Did they stop you?
A. No; they were all standing there, and when I came up--we all have to stop there--he got on the engine.
Q. At what point?
A. At Twenty-eighth street.
Q. How many were standing there then?
A. Quite a number--I suppose about thirty-five or forty of them.
Q. Did you know any of them?
A. I knew him. It was dark, and I couldn't see who the rest were.
Q. What was the name of that man?
A. D. W. Davis, I think.
Q. Did he say anything more to you?
A. No; nothing more. He said it was all right, that I could go on, after I told him what I was hauling.
Q. What was the manner of the crowd at that time as to their being boisterous or demonstrative?
A. Indeed, I could not tell you. We just stop for a couple of minutes, and sometimes not that long.
Q. You had no conversation with any other excepting the one who got on your engine?
A. That is all. He was discharged off this road a couple of times, and off the Pan-Handle, I believe.
Q. Why was he discharged?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Where did he live?
A. Somewhere about Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Did you learn that day, or any time after that, when these parties resolved to strike?
A. No.
Q. Did you know of any preconceived plan of striking?
A. No; I did not.
Q. Do you know whether they have a secret organization or not?
A. All I heard of was the Train Men's Union--that is all I know of.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. I never was in any of their meetings, and know nothing about it.
Q. Do you know whether there was any other organization?
A. The Engineers' Brotherhood.
Q. What is the object of that?
A. That I cannot tell you. It is something I never belonged to.
Q. Did you come in on your regular trip in the morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you molested in any way?
A. No.
Q. Did you go out on time and come in on time all day Friday?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Without being molested?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did you run on Saturday?
A. Until eight-fifteen, Saturday night.
Q. What stopped you then?
A. I did not go out at eleven-forty, because I could not get out at eleven-forty.
Q. Why?
A. The fire was too hot.
Q. I suppose you didn't go out for a week or so then?
A. I went to work on Tuesday.
Q. At what time?
A. I think I went out at six-five on Tuesday night.
Q. Was there still a crowd about then?
A. Yes.
Q. How large about?
A. I cannot tell how large the crowd was.
Q. Had the work commenced then, by the company, in clearing off the tracks--the _debris_?
A. Indeed, I cannot tell you whether it had or not.
Q. Were you interfered with in any way on Tuesday night when you went out?
A. Not on Tuesday night.
Q. What was the mob doing at that time on Tuesday night?
A. The mob was cleared away then, on Tuesday, partly.
Q. Partly, you say?
A. From Thirty-third street. It was as far as we could get. I went to work on Tuesday after the Sunday of the fire.
Q. You run your trains regularly up to Saturday night?
A. Yes; we came in at eight-fifteen.
Q. Were you there when any of the demonstrations were made by the crowd in firing or throwing stones?
A. No.
Q. You were not about Twenty-eighth street then?
A. No.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you see any interference?
A. I saw the interfering on Thursday with the Union Line that they were trying to take out.
Q. Stopping of the train?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any violence or assaulting of the engineer, or any train men of that train?
A. No; the crowd just got in front of the engines, and sprung on them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Who were those men?
A. They were other men than railroad men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did you know any of those men who got on your train?
A. No.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Couldn't you guess from their appearance what their trades or occupations were?
A. No.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Did they get on and off the engine as if they were men used to being around the cars?
A. No; some of them would get off and fall, and some of them would get off pretty good.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Were they sober or not?
A. I could not tell that.
* * * * *
W. A. Kirk, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Wilkensburg.
Q. What is your connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. I am a conductor on the Wilkensburg accommodation.
Q. Were you a conductor in July last?
A. Yes.
Q. How far is Wilkensburg from Pittsburgh?
A. Seven miles.
Q. How many trips do you make between these points a day?
A. Five round trips.
Q. What is your time for leaving?
A. The first trip in the morning we leave Wilkensburg at six-fifty-four, and get there at night at ten-fifteen.
Q. What time do you get to Pittsburgh?
A. Seven-thirty first, and leave at nine-forty, going out on the last trip.
Q. On the morning of July 19th, were you disturbed in coming in or going out?
A. No.
Q. When did you first learn of any difficulty or any strike?
A. When I came as far as Twenty-eighth street with the twelve-five train--coming in on that trip--with the train due at the depot at that time. I then heard of it. I had heard remarks of a strike, but heard nothing definite until I came in on that trip.
Q. What occurred on Friday?
A. I saw men standing around there on Friday, I did not see anything at all, except seeing men standing around.
Q. Were you molested in any way?
A. Not on Friday. I did not see anything unusual on Friday. No; I was not molested on Thursday in any shape, but on Friday they were around by hundreds. Parties that I did not know where they came from, and we could not do anything with them. They would get on the trains, and we could not do anything with them. They did pretty much as they pleased, and I saw that we had better keep quiet. They were riding between Twenty-eighth street and Lawrenceville and Torren's station, during Friday. They were just riding when it suited them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What did they seem to be?
A. They seemed to be mill men, as much as any thing else, from their appearance. They seemed to work somewhere where the sun did not strike them.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. They refused to pay fare?
A. Yes; they paid nothing. On Saturday morning, coming in on the first trip, I did not see any of them. I had the usual run of passengers in that morning. Going out at nine-forty, I got a crowd on that covered the engine, and tank, and train, and every place. After I left Twenty-eighth street, I made up my mind between there and Lawrenceville that I would not go any further until I had got those parties off. I got to Lawrenceville, and went to the engine, and got a big coal pick, and then went to them, and said the first man that refuses to get off here, I am going to stick the coal pick in him. I found that they all got off, and seeing that I had it my own way with those on the engine, I thought I would try it with the others on the train. I did try it on them, and so pulled on to Millvale, when I did not have anybody on that did not pay any fare, and I kept that up all day Saturday, except one trip. On the half-past three trip, they were a little too thick. I threw them off, and knocked them off the train, and drove them off the engine with the pick. At Liberty, coming in on the twelve o'clock trip that day, I was about five minutes putting them off there. A crowd of them got on at Torrens. I got them all off, that did not pay any fare. My crew stood by me very well. During the whole trouble, if I had had a few more men on the train--I only had two of a crew--I could have cleaned them out all the time. I was not molested or troubled at all by the railroad men--that is on the train, in that way. I was told at Liberty, on Saturday night, that I could not run the train out the city there by one railroad man and one other.
Q. Who was the railroad man?
A. His name was Hice, and the name of the other was Smith.
Q. Smith was not a railroad man?
A. No.
Q. Do you know what his occupation is?
A. A one-horse stock dealer. He went around the country buying up calves. I do not know what he is doing now. He is under indictment at present.
Q. Was Hice in the employ of the company at that time?
A. He was when the riot commenced. He has not been since.
Q. You say you ran your train without carrying passengers that refused to pay fare except once. What day was that?
A. It was Friday that I could not do anything with them.
Q. Did you attempt on that day to eject those men?
A. I did, but I concluded it was not going to be very healthy, and I gave it up. They would not get off, and made all sorts of threats. I did not know any of them that made the threats. They threatened that if there was any putting off, they would be the parties to do it, and I would be the one to go off.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Can you tell us any of the occurrences of the riot?
A. I cannot, for I was just simply running on the train. I did not stop. The firing that took place at Twenty-eighth street occurred while I was out on a trip. They held me at Lawrenceville until it was all over and quiet, so that the track was clear when I came down. When I came in, there were not many there, but there was a big crowd there when I went out. I ran my train every trip except the last one, Saturday night. I went for information to the telegraph office, but could not get any, and I kept the train out there and did not make the last trip.
Q. During all the excitement you were free to run in and out?
A. Except a little detention waiting for the crowds to open. They would always get out of the road. Nothing was said to me by any person--by any employé, except this man Hice. He asked me once if I did not think I had better stop, and I told him I did not think I had, that I would go on as long as there was a track to run on, and make the trips, if I could.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any of these men except Hice, or did you hear any of the strikers talking?
A. Two or three railroad men--I do not know their names--went out on my train at three o'clock on Thursday afternoon; they were going out home. I asked them what the trouble was, but I got but little satisfaction out of them, no more than they were swearing at the double-headers; that was all I could hear.
Q. They were not taking part in the riot?
A. No; they said they were not going out, but they had nothing to do with the trouble. I think they went home, for I would see them still out down there when I went out. They were not in the crowds at all.
* * * * *
Frederick Fleck, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. At Spring Hill, on the line of the Pennsylvania railroad.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I am a locomotive engineer.
Q. Were you so engaged during the riots in July?
A. I was.
Q. Can you give the committee any information upon the occurrences that came under your observation?
A. On the morning of Thursday, the 19th, I started out on my usual time, at seven-twenty, with a coal train. I ran what is called the Pittsburgh coal train--making two round trips from Pittsburgh to Brinton's about eleven miles out. We left in the morning without any indication or sign of trouble on the road. Everything appeared to be going on as usual. There was no intimation of any trouble. Coming in on the road, about East Liberty or Torrens, we usually met the trains going out--the eight-forty's. We did not meet them. We should have passed them between those points. We did not know what was the matter, but thought there was some delay or no freight; but when we came to Torrens, some of the men about the stock-yards, by signs in this manner, [indicating,] showed there was a strike, as we understood; but we knew nothing definite until we got to Lawrenceville, and there ascertained there was a strike. We usually cut the engine loose on running by the upper round-house. There was a conductor came on the engine, and asked me if I was going out. I told him I certainly was, that I had no reason why I should not go out. He said the boys were on a strike, and they did not propose to let anybody go out.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Who was that conductor?
A. His name was Leech Reynolds.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was he an employé of the railroad company?
A. He was a conductor at that time.
Q. Do you know where he resides?
A. I think he then resided in the Twelfth ward. I did not pay any attention to him, whatever, and the train was dropped past, and I pushed on to the west end of the yard, as usual. I believe there were no objections to putting trains away that came in.
Q. Is Reynolds living in Pittsburgh now?
A. I think he is, although he is not employed at present. I paid no attention to the threats. I asked what would be the consequence if I did go out, and he said that I would get my neck broke. I smiled. I told him I did not know--that it was pretty hard to break, as it was short and thick. I went on to Lawrenceville with the engine and crew. We carry four men on that train. It is a train that does a great deal of work, and we require two flagmen. There was a great deal of work to be done on that train, as it is a double train, and we take local traffic. At Lawrenceville I started to go down the track, when the conductor and crew left the engine. I said, boys are you not going out? They concluded not to go out, that they did not want to be black sheep. I told them that I did not know that the double-header business interfered with us, and it was only a question of double-headers, so far as I knew. Nevertheless, they concluded not to go out. I then took the engine down, and reported that there was no crew to go out. This was about eleven o'clock on Thursday morning. In the meantime, there was some scuffling about there. I saw men rush back and forward, and there were some policemen there. I did not know what the trouble was, and went down to make some inquiries from Mr. Fox. I asked what the matter was, and was told that they were trying to arrest a man that had struck Mr. Watt. They had got hold of him, but he was limber as an eel. The engine was taken into the round-house. About two or three o'clock that afternoon, an attempt was made to take the double train out--what is called the Union Line. Conductor France was to take it out. He asked me what to do about the matter. I said he ought to judge for himself--you know your business--but, if I were you, I would attempt to take the train out, and if they won't let you, then you have done your duty. He is a rather bold, brave fellow, and sometimes would go further than other men would. He said, I have got shooting-irons, and if they stop me I may hurt somebody. They coupled up the train, but they were stopped at the lower round-house. There were some parleying there, and some difficulty. A crowd was there, of twenty or thirty or forty, stretched along from Twenty-sixth to Twenty-eighth street.
Q. Who were this crowd?
A. They were railroad men--I can hardly tell who they were--principally railroad men at that time. The order was given to start the train. I think Mr. Watt was there, and the engineers made an effort to start, but the crowd got in front and commenced swinging their hands, and I saw one man flourishing a revolver. I think his name was Harris. They stopped them, and the engineers got off, and the firemen, and the train did not move. That was on Thursday, about three o'clock. On Thursday evening the engineers called a meeting over Clark's hotel, and I went to see what action would be taken in regard to the strike. Up to that time I understood the engineers had not taken any part--that they were a kind of silent party, looking on. They met and discussed the matter _pro_ and _con_ for some time. The older men advised not to have anything to do with the matter, that it was a conductors' and brakemen's fight, and that they should be left to fight it out themselves; but some time previous to this, there had been a reduction of ten per cent., and the engineers had sent a committee to Philadelphia to the general office, to see what could be done about it. The committee returned, and they had accepted the reduction in good faith. I told the meeting that the men had consented to take the reduction, and that so far as the double-headers were concerned, they had run them before, and that there was no objection--that it did not require any less engineers or firemen to run the double-headers, and that it did not effect us in that respect, but before the meeting broke up some men came in under the influence of liquor, and got a little noisy, and the thing dropped until Friday morning. On Friday morning they had another meeting, and I also went to that. The older engineers thought that we could keep the men out of it--the engineers and firemen--but it appeared to be determined on the part of the majority of the freight engineers and firemen to go into the matter, and the meeting was postponed until three o'clock. They did not come to any conclusion. The majority of the men there that morning were opposed to the strike. They concluded to have another meeting in the afternoon; and I saw, with a few others, that a resolution would be adopted that they would go for the strike, so I did not go, and I advised some of the younger men that I knew, not to go near the meeting. This was at Engineers' hall. About one o'clock they had organized the meeting, but I was not down there. They sent a sub-committee to come up and take me down by force to the meeting. I refused to go. Then they organized and concluded to go into the Trainmen's Union, and they went into it, and went into the strike--that is the majority of our freight men--engineers. Up to that time I did not know of any organized committee or anything else waiting on the officers, and I told our men in the morning you cannot consistently demand anything until you see the officers and have a refusal. I told them you have not made any request, and you are going into this thing without making any request, and that you have violated the law at the start, and you cannot expect to be successful; but they said that the iron was hot, and that they were going to strike. So after that time until the trouble was over, I had nothing to do with the men. I staid there until Saturday evening, ready to go out. In fact on Saturday my engine was fired up and ready to go out. I never refused to go out because I had never quit the service of the company.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. What kind of a meeting was this?
A. It was meeting of engineers and firemen.
Q. A secret organization?
A. No; it was an open meeting.
Q. Participated in by men belonging to this organization and others?
A. By the brakemen, conductors, engineers, and firemen, and all those that wished to be there. On Saturday evening the troops came up, and I was back and forward to the shops. I was up on Twenty-eighth street, but I saw no violent demonstrations, although there was a big crowd there. I suppose, though, if there had been any effort on Friday or Saturday, to send trains out, there would have been violence. Plenty of revolvers and fire-arms were displayed there, by plenty of men outside of railroad men.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Was it railroad men who flourished and displayed the revolvers and fire-arms?
A. I think the majority were outsiders.
Q. Were they citizens of the city of Pittsburgh, or strangers?
A. I don't know. I suppose they were citizens from the East End--from the east of the city. There were thieves, and robbers, and rogues, and tramps there from the whole country.
Q. Were they citizens of Pittsburgh, or were they strangers?