Part 16
A. Yes; on Friday. First in the morning--then they stopped it. Then Mr. Garrett, the train master, and me went up and saw them, and he talked to them. There was a big run of stock coming off the Fort Wayne road, and some of them said they would let him have one engine to haul it. He said that they ought to know better, that one engine was not sufficient, and they agreed to let him have two. So we got engines enough to move the stock to East Liberty.
Q. They said you could have one engine. Who was it that told this to Mr. Garrett?
A. I don't know who it was.
Q. Did you hear the conversation between the men and Mr. Garrett?
A. I was with him in the crowd. We had to go right into it like a wedge.
Q. Were they railroad men?
A. Some of them were railroad men.
Q. Men then in the employ of the company, or who had been up to the morning of Thursday?
A. Yes; they were still in the employ of the company, so far as I know.
Q. They were the spokesmen for the crowd, were they?
A. One of them was the spokesmen. We asked for the spokesman when we went there.
Q. Who was that man?
A. I don't remember now who he was.
Q. An engineer, conductor, or brakeman?
A. I think he was a brakeman.
Q. What is Mr. Garrett's first name?
A. His name is David Garrett.
By Mr. Means:
Q. At Twenty-eighth street, did the mob of men stop the train going east?
A. They stopped everything.
Q. Who did that?
A. I don't know whether it was by employés or others.
Q. They prevented the engines from connecting with your stock trains?
A. Yes; sometimes they told the engineers to go on back.
Q. They sent the engines back?
A. Yes; they were sent right back on going out the track, and sent in again on coming out the track.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Describe the crowd during Friday night?
A. I was not there during that night.
Q. Were you there during Saturday morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Describe things then?
A. Early in the morning there was not such a very large crowd, but towards evening, just before the soldiers came up----
Q. How large was it in the morning early?
A. I don't suppose there were over two hundred people.
Q. What time was that?
A. About seven o'clock--that is outside of the soldiers. The Fourteenth and Eighteenth regiments were there then, I believe. In the evening along about five o'clock, at the time the firing began, in the neighborhood of the railroad, and in the streets there were from five to seven thousand people.
Q. Who composed that crowd then--what class of men?
A. They appeared to be all classes.
Q. Railroad employés?
A. Railroad and mill men, and I guess a few of every kind.
Q. When you refer to the crowd of five thousand, do you mean to say that all of that crowd were riotous or engaged in riotous conduct?
A. I don't mean to say that.
Q. You say that a portion of them were lookers-on?
A. Yes.
Q. How many were actually engaged in the riot at that time?
A. I cannot say. They were scattered around here and there and everywhere.
Q. Was there any division or separation between the rioters and the crowd that was looking on?
A. I guess they were scattered through the crowd everywhere around the railroad.
Q. Down on the railroad were any persons looking on--were they along the railroad track, or were they back on the hill?
A. They were standing on the hill and on the railroad track, too. Some of them might be railroad men of other roads, and I never know it.
Q. Were there any women and children mixed up with the crowd?
A. There were some on the street and hill-side.
Q. That crowd had been accumulating all day I suppose?
A. Yes.
Q. How was it in regard to any boisterous or noisy demonstrations?
A. I would say that some of them were pretty boisterous. Some of them would be about half tight, and were raising a little excitement here and among themselves.
Q. When did the crowd begin to get demonstrative or boisterous, at what time in the day?
A. Along about twelve o'clock probably, and about five it got worse. The work shops and all the mills, as a general thing, shut down about three o'clock on Saturday. I suppose that helped to increase the crowd.
Q. Were you among the crowd during Saturday night?
A. No.
Q. Were you present at Twenty-eighth street when the firing of the soldiers took place?
A. I was between Twenty-sixth and Twenty-eighth streets when they began to shoot--about half way.
Q. You were in sight so that you could see?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear any orders given to fire?
A. No; I was not near enough to hear, but I saw one or two missiles thrown from the hillside and the shooting began after that.
Q. By whom were the missiles thrown?
A. I cannot say that; they came from the thick part of the crowd on the hillside.
Q. Was there any firing before the missiles were thrown?
A. I don't remember; it was a little after.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did it appear to be pistol shots or musketry?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Were any shots fired from the hill?
A. I cannot tell whether they came from the hill or from the soldiers. There were some scattering shots, and then a kind of general volley.
Q. Were those shots pistol shots or musket shots?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. What effect did the firing have upon the crowd?
A. It appeared to drive them back for a while.
Q. Which way did they go?
A. They scattered in all directions--some went north, south, east, and west--in every direction--the best way they could get out.
Q. Did it clear the track?
A. It cleared the track for a while.
Q. For what distance?
A. Near down to Twenty-eighth street--that is about the only place that was obstructed.
Q. When did the mob begin to reassemble after that?
A. It took place somewhere along about six o'clock, I suppose. I was not there.
Q. When were you there next?
A. Sunday morning when I came in everything was on fire--was burning--seven and a half o'clock.
Q. How far?
A. To Twenty-eighth street.
Q. From what point?
A. What we call the south yard--the tracks south of the main track between Lawrenceville and Twenty-eighth street--they were burning, and they were burning the upper round-house then. I was along on the hill side, within sight of the track, from seven and a half that morning until eight o'clock that night.
Q. Where were the soldiers or troops?
A. They had left there then, and went into the work-house, I believe. They left the round-house between five and six o'clock in the morning.
Q. What took place during the day of Sunday--how large was the crowd Sunday morning?
A. The crowd that was burning?
Q. Engaged in actual riotous conduct?
A. There were these right in the yard--there appeared to be somewhere in the neighborhood of a thousand people. I cannot tell whether they all belonged to the crowd or not. They appeared to be following after it--breaking the cars open and taking out what they wanted, and then setting fire to them.
Q. Who was breaking open the cars?
A. I cannot tell who they were.
Q. Did you go to see?
A. I didn't go near enough to recognize any of them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. From their appearance could you form any idea as to whether they were railroad men or not?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Was there nothing to distinguish them?
A. No.
Q. Who was engaged in firing the cars at that time?
A. I cannot tell that.
Q. Were they setting the cars on fire with torches and fire brands?
A. Yes. Wherever there was a gap they would carry the fire over the gap to the next place.
Q. Did you make any effort to see who those men were?
A. I could not tell who they were.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What kind of men were they?
A. They were rough looking men.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. How near did you go?
A. I was a hundred feet or so from them. I heard that detectives were there. Some of them told me, in fact, that they understood detectives were among them watching them.
Q. Did you see any of your men among the crowd on Sunday morning?
A. No; I did not.
Adjourned to meet at three o'clock, P.M.
SAME DAY.
ORPHAN'S COURT ROOM, PITTSBURGH, FRIDAY, _February 8, 1878_--3 P.M.
Pursuant to adjournment, the committee re-assembled at three, P.M., this day, and continued the taking of testimony.
The first witness examined was
* * * * *
William Ryan, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. In the Fifteenth ward of the city of Pittsburgh.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been in their employ, and in what capacity?
A. I cannot state the precise date when I entered the service of the company; but I judge it is between eight and ten years.
Q. In what capacity were you employed in July last?
A. As freight conductor.
Q. Between what points?
A. Pittsburgh and Derry, or between Pittsburgh and Conemaugh.
Q. You were a conductor on trains that ran double-headers?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been running on trains that run in that way?
A. I cannot tell the length of time precisely, but I was running them from the time they started--that is, from the time they started to run through freight as double.
Q. About how long?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Two or three years?
A. I hardly fancy it could be that long. I should say a year.
Q. Were you at the depot or about the depot on the morning of the 19th--Thursday morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that your morning for going out as conductor of the train?
A. It was my train that should have started out. It was my morning.
Q. What was your time for going out?
A. If I recollect right, it was eight-forty.
Q. Did you start that morning or make any attempt to start?
A. We made every preparation to start, with the exception of coupling up the train. I examined the train as I was going into the yard. I thought the men were rather long in getting the engine out. I started up, and on going to the train men's room met two of my brakemen, and asked the cause of the delay. They told me they didn't intend to go out. I asked the reason. They said they had either quit or struck--I don't recollect. I asked what their object was in striking. They said they didn't intend to run on double-headers--that they were not making any more than a living at that time, and that by running double-headers, it would cause some of them to be dismissed or suspended. That they didn't know who it would be, and as they had the advantage at that time, they would make the best use of it they could.
Q. Those were your brakemen?
A. Yes.
Q. What were their names?
A. One was named John Vensel and the other I cannot give his first name. In giving in his time, I always gave it as M. Martin.
Q. What time had you this conversation with them?
A. I judge about nine o'clock.
Q. They said that some of them would be dismissed?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any further conversation with them?
A. I did.
Q. What about?
A. I tried to advise them not to strike, and showed them the folly of it. I told them that the times were hard at present and that freight was very slack, and that the company was trying to economize and that their chances were just as good as mine. I advised them to stay. They claimed "no," that they had determined to quit, and were going to do it or had done it. I notified the dispatcher then that the men had quit, and asked what I was to do. He told me to remain, and that he would provide men for me. He went around and made an effort to get men but could not get them. I then asked permission to go to dinner, and I went, and came back about twelve or one. There was no change in the affair at all, everything remained just as it had been.
Q. Where did these men go when they refused to go out on the train?
A. In the yard.
Q. They did not go home?
A. No; they remained in the yard up to the time I left, and I saw them there in the afternoon.
Q. Were there any other men about at that time?
A. Yes; men were continually coming in off the road.
Q. How many men were there when you left to go to dinner?
A. I should judge about eighteen or twenty men at that time.
Q. Did you have any conversation with any other men?
A. With my flagman.
Q. What did he say?
A. He thought as the rest did, that now was the time to strike or quit, and that they all had concluded to do it, and that all my conversation with him would not change his ideas a particle.
Q. What men were coming in?
A. The men off the regular freight trains kept coming in there during the day.
Q. They joined the other men?
A. Yes; and swelled the crowd.
Q. Did you talk with those men to find out whether they had arranged for this strike previously?
A. I did not. I blamed them for it, but they denied it. Whether they had made an arrangement or not for that day, I don't know.
Q. They denied an arrangement?
A. Yes.
Q. How many of them denied it?
A. Two or three of them I think denied it. They had made an arrangement previous to this to strike, but from some cause or other it was not carried into effect, and my being a non-union man, I concluded that they had arranged it in such a way that the responsibility would fall on me, and in case it would be a failure I would be the man discharged, and that the union men would not suffer. That was the opinion I formed that morning.
Q. How long previous had they made this arrangement?
A. A month or two months before.
Q. What prevented the carrying of the arrangement into effect?
A. I do not know. When a railroad man came to me, and requested me to join them, I told them I could not do it; that my opinion was different from theirs with reference to strikes; that I did not feel justified in doing it. He asked me if I had any injury. I told him I could not say. He said: "I am going to strike to-morrow." I went as far as Derry, and laid over two or three hours. The only person there I saw by himself was the dispatcher. I went to him and told him in confidence that these men were going to strike.
Q. When was that?
A. It was previous to this affair of the men going out--a month or two months.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. After the reduction of ten per cent.?
A. Yes. I told the dispatcher that these men had come to the conclusion to strike, and told him I wanted to let it be known--that two thirds of them were not friends of mine, and it would only cause me trouble by their going out, and I would notify the proper officers in time to give them a chance to prevent in case it should occur. I returned to the city that morning with the train. Coming in, I wondered how to get at the superintendent's office without being seen. I did not care about being known, and after putting the train away, I concluded I would go out on the accommodation, but I met one of my men, and I got into conversation with him, and I asked him if he knew anything about it. He said he did, and he said it had fallen through. I asked him if he was positive of it, he said he was--that he knew it had. I told him I was very glad to hear it. Says he, I am not. I concluded then not to go out. I made inquiries among other men, and found it to be the fact, that they had concluded not to strike at the time appointed.
Q. Did this man give you any reasons?
A. He did not.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Sloan.
Q. Did you hear any other conversation or learn anything of any other union or organization to strike from that morning until the 19th?
A. No.
Q. Had you any knowledge that your men would not go out until you met them--those two men?
A. None whatever.
Q. How long before that morning was it known to the men that the order had been issued to run double-headers?
A. It was known in six hours, I should judge, to all the men on the line after the order was posted on the bulletin boards.
Q. When was it posted?
A. I cannot give the date, but fancy it was posted twenty-four hours before the order should have gone into effect.
Q. Did you discover that it produced any commotion among the men?
A. Not more so than at other times. There was general dissatisfaction among the men on account of the double trains. Of course it increased it somewhat. There were several trains running before this order was issued, but when this order would go into effect it would make all trains double, and this would cause them to feel more dissatisfied.
Q. After you returned from your dinner on Friday, how large a crowd did you find in the yard?
A. I judge about twenty men--twenty-five--probably more.
Q. All railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that, but the greater portion of them at that time were railroad employés. The crowd gradually increased until evening.
Q. Did you have any conversation with the men after you returned from your dinner?
A. With some of them.
Q. About going out?
A. I spoke to them, and asked them who had organized it, and what they were going to do about it. They said they did not know, that they had quit because the rest had, and intended to see it through.
Q. Was there any effort made that afternoon to start the trains?
A. I believe not that afternoon to my knowledge.
Q. When was the first effort made to start the trains, to your knowledge?
A. Thursday morning.
Q. Was there none made on Friday morning, to your knowledge?
A. I think not.
Q. Or during the day Friday?
A. An effort was made, I think, in the afternoon of Friday.
Q. Were you present when that effort was made?
A. I was.
Q. How large was the crowd at that time?
A. I cannot tell the number, but it was a very large crowd.
Q. Composed of employés of your railroad, and of the different roads?
A. Almost all classes of men were there.
Q. Who seemed to be the leaders, at that time, of the crowd?
A. It would be a very difficult matter for me to say. In fact they all seemed to lead--where one would go, the rest would follow.
Q. Do you mean helter-skelter?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Did there seem to be any leader who was taking charge of the riot?
A. In the beginning there was one man that seemed to take the lead--on the morning of Thursday, but after that I lost all trace of him.
Q. Who was he?
A. His name was Hice. I was in the telegraph office on Thursday morning, after the strike occurred, talking to the train runner. He came up, after the conversation with me, and I saw him in the act of trying to couple an engine on to some caboose cars. They failed to do so on account of the throwing of stones and other missiles.
Q. What time was that?
A. I judge about ten o'clock--along there somewhere.
Q. Thursday?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that the first violence that was used?
A. The first I saw.
Q. Who were those persons who were throwing the stones?
A. I cannot say who they were.
Q. How many composed the crowd at that time?
A. I fancy some fifteen or eighteen men that I saw there, but might have been more.
Q. Were they all railroad employés?
A. I cannot say that.
Q. Were those brakemen who had refused to go out with you among them?
A. That I cannot say. I was not close enough to see whether my men were among them or not.
Q. On Friday afternoon, when the attempt was made to start the train, will you tell us what occurred then?
A. As near as I can recollect, the train was made up, and it was pulled up out of the freight yard. I don't know whether the caboose car was coupled or not. I cannot recollect, but I saw the train start as though it was going to go out. I saw men run in front of the engines to stop them, and I saw the parties get off of them, and the train then was backed into the yard after that.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Was that on Friday?
A. I cannot say whether it was Thursday afternoon or Friday, but it was one of those two days. It seems to me it was Thursday afternoon--the same day.
Q. When the resistance was made there, was it a combined resistance of all the men, or did only two or three seem to be leading the others?
A. It was a general rush, a swinging of hands, and a yelling and hooting.
Q. Were any missiles thrown of any kind?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Was any violence used towards those who were trying to take the train out?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Were any threats made to the loyal men who were willing to work?
A. I was not close enough to hear the conversation.
Q. Were you threatened at any time if you did not leave the yard?
A. Not directly. Two or three men came to me, and asked me if I was going out. I told them yes, if I could get a crew, and one of them intimated to me that I had better not go, or words to that effect--that they did not want to hurt me, or something like that. That was about all.
Q. Whom did you report to when your men refused to go out?
A. The dispatcher.
Q. What is his name?
A. William Hunter.
Q. How many trains were to go out at that hour--eight-forty?
A. I think mine was the only one at that time, with the exception of the single train going on the branch.
Q. When were the next trains to start?
A. The next, I believe, would have been eleven o'clock--no; the next would have been nine-forty.
Q. Do you know whether the conductors of those trains were all prepared to start them or not?
A. I believe one of them was there.
Q. Did you have any talk with him?
A. I did.
Q. Was he willing to go?
A. No; he was not.
Q. He was among the strikers?
A. Yes.
Q. Were the engineers willing to go?
A. That I do not know. One of them came to me and ask if I was going out, and I told him yes, if I could get a crew. He turned around and walked away, and did not say anything more to me about it.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. What was this conductor's name?
A. Meredith.
Q. You said that two or three men came and asked you if you were going out, and you said yes, if you could get a crew, and that then they intimated it would be well for you if you did not. Who were these men?
A. One was D. W. Davis. The other name I do not recollect.
Q. What was his position at that time?
A. A brakeman, I believe.
Q. Had he been discharged or was he still in the employ of the company?
A. He was in the employ of the company up to that morning, so far as I know.
Q. Do you know where he is now?
A. No.
Q. Has he been in the employ of the company since?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. The other's name you do not remember?
A. I don't remember at all.
Q. Where is this Conductor Meredith?
A. I think he is in some part of Kentucky.
Q. How many men did you have as trainmen for one train?
A. Three.
Q. Besides yourself, and aside from the engineer and fireman?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did you have any fear of violence from the employés of the road if you started out?
A. Well, I had a fear, but no serious fear. I did not think that they would kill me.
Q. You did not believe on the morning of the riot that they would do so?
A. No; besides I was determined to protect myself in the best way I could.
* * * * *
John Plender, _sworn with uplifted hand_:
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. I am living at Walls station.
Q. Are you in the employ of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company?
A. Yes, sir; I am running a passenger engine--the "accommodation"--as engineer.
Q. Were you in July last?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Between what points?
A. Between Walls and Pittsburgh.
Q. What is the distance of Walls from Pittsburgh?
A. Sixteen miles.
Q. How often do you make your trips?
A. I make three round trips a day.
Q. Were you at the Union depot on Thursday morning, the 19th?
A. I came in that morning from Walls, at eight-fifteen.
Q. What time did you go out?
A. At twelve-five.
Q. Where were you between eight-fifteen and twelve-five?
A. In the round-house, at work on my engine.
Q. When did you first learn that any men had refused to go out on their trains?
A. I suppose it was half-past nine when one of the men told me. It was an engineer that told me.
Q. Was he one that had refused to go out?
A. No; he had just come in.
Q. Did you learn anything more about it between that time and twelve o'clock?
A. No. The "Yioughiougheny" came in, and he told me that there was a strike.
Q. What then took place?