Part 122
Q. State what your official connection with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company is?
A. I am president of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company.
Q. You have held that position for a number of years?
A. I have been connected with the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, in various capacities, over twenty-six years.
Q. State, if prior to the strike that occurred in July last, you had any information that such a strike was to take place, or had any reason to apprehend a strike?
A. We had no information on the subject. I was on that evening up the river Delaware eighteen miles, visiting some friends--my daughters' family--and had gone to bed about ten o'clock, and heard nothing of the strike, or anything connected with it, until about eleven o'clock, when one of our officers from West Philadelphia, came up and advised me that there was trouble on the road, and wanted me to come to West Philadelphia. I did so, and arrived there a quarter before twelve, on Thursday night. At that time I had no intimation of any possible trouble with any of our people.
Q. Had you any knowledge of the existence of an organization called the Trainmen's Union?
A. Yes; I had heard that there was such an organization. There was some discontent about salaries and other matters connected with railroad management, and I had an interview with some engineers and firemen a few weeks before, and went over the whole subject--went over the whole ground with them. I suppose it was a committee of twenty or thirty altogether; and after hearing all that was to be said on both sides, we finally agreed that it was one of the inevitable things that could not be avoided, but would be remedied as soon as the condition of the country got into a more prosperous condition. After the committee retired from the interview, they came back again with a letter directed to me, expressing just what I said, in substance, to you; therefore I had no idea that there was discontent among our people likely to lead to anything like the results attained afterwards--like the difficulty that resulted in Pittsburgh.
Q. What complaints did this committee make when they waited on you?
A. They wanted to have the ten per cent. restored.
Q. What time was that?
A. It may have been three or four weeks before the difficulty occurred.
Q. It was after the 1st of June--after the ten per cent. reduction?
A. After the notice was given.
Q. Did they have any other complaint to make than about the ten per cent. reduction?
A. They discussed the question of privilege to ride over the road, and about being allowed for time when off duty, and several things of that character, all of which were discussed in the most friendly way with the committee, and I supposed that the committee went away perfectly satisfied. They so expressed themselves in writing to me--perfectly satisfied with the action of the company.
Q. Did they make any objections to the classification--what is called the classification?
A. They discussed that question with me, and they wanted to get some changes made in that. That had been agreed upon with the engineers and firemen some years before.
Q. They were satisfied on that point?
A. Entirely.
Q. Had you heard of any dissatisfaction on that point from any other source than from this committee?
A. I had heard nothing about the question at all.
Q. Had there been any complaints made prior to the one made by this committee on that subject?
A. A year or two before the question had been discussed. I have always been in the habit when our people come to state their grievances or supposed grievances to hear them, and discuss the matter, and do what we think right about it. I believe I never have declined to receive our men, and talk over matters connected with the company.
Q. After the order was issued to run double-headers, did you hear of any dissatisfaction?
A. Not until this Thursday night. That that was one cause of dissatisfaction.
Q. How long before that was the order issued to run double-headers?
A. I cannot give the time, but it was, I think, a few weeks--but how long, I don't know. It is a matter of detail management of the respective divisions that scarcely ever comes to me at all.
Q. Do you know what date it went into effect?
A. No; I do not.
Q. From whom did you get the first information that a strike existed there at Pittsburgh?
A. From Mr. Charles E. Pugh, one of our superintendents at West Philadelphia, who came up for me to Andalusia, or near there.
Q. What time did he get there?
A. At a quarter before eleven o'clock.
Q. On the 19th?
A. Yes; on Thursday night.
Q. When did you get the next information?
A. When I got to the depot at West Philadelphia.
Q. What was the character of that?
A. That there was an outbreak among the men on all the roads extending rapidly over all the lines in the country, and that there was not a sufficient police force in the city of Pittsburgh, to manage the matter, and that the sheriff had been called out or called upon by somebody to organize a _posse comitatus_, and I believe he did make some effort about it.
Q. That he was called upon by some officer of your road?
A. No; but by some authorities of the city of Pittsburgh; but that, I cannot say. I was not there. That they called upon him, but just when they called upon him, I do not know.
Q. That information was communicated to you?
A. Yes; by telegraph.
Q. Were you informed that the city authorities and the sheriff were not able to suppress the strike or the riot there?
A. Yes; I was informed of that fact--that the sheriff had called upon the Governor of the State for aid.
Q. What time did you get that information?
A. Three or four o'clock in the morning.
Q. From whom did you get the information?
A. From our officers at Pittsburgh. I think probably from Mr. Pitcairn.
Q. Had you any communication with the Governor?
A. Yes; I telegraphed to the Governor after he had been called upon and given the general results of the trouble--I telegraphed. I thought it was very important for him to be back in the city at the earliest moment he could come. That I thought the peace of the whole State was threatened.
Q. What time did you send that telegram?
A. I think that was sent the next day some time.
Q. On Friday?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see General Latta before he left for Pittsburgh?
A. Yes. He was there when I got to West Philadelphia. He was very much disturbed. He told me that the Governor, before leaving, had left power and authority with him to exercise his authority in case of disturbance. I asked what he proposed to do about the matter, and he said he proposed to go to Pittsburgh, and be governed by circumstances. If the Governor was called upon, that he would do what was necessary and proper to be done, under the circumstances, to preserve the order of the State. I think it was about a quarter before twelve o'clock on Thursday night when I saw him. I expressed to him the importance of preserving the highways of the country intact, as I understood it and believed it.
Q. When did you first learn that they had ordered the troops out--when the Adjutant General had ordered them out?
A. I understood about four o'clock Friday morning that the sheriff of Allegheny county had called for troops.
Q. And you understood then that General Latta would call them in pursuance of the call of the sheriff?
A. General Latta told me if called on, that he had abundance of troops in the city of Pittsburgh to take care of anything that might arise--under General Pearson.
Q. Did you have any communication with General Pearson?
A. No; if General Pearson asked me any question about transportation of troops, I told him what was proper under the circumstances; but I do not recollect of having any from him.
Q. Had you ever had any strikes on that road prior to this time?
A. We had a strike in 1860, when I was general superintendent of the road--a small affair that didn't last but a few days--principally among some of the engineers and some of the shop men. But I believe we had no strike or trouble with our people from that time up to the occurrences last summer.
Q. What steps were taken at that time to control it by the company?
A. Simply notice to the men engaged in it, that if the wages or arrangements of the company did not suit them, to peaceably go away.
Q. Was there any attempt, at that time, to molest or disturb the property of the company?
A. Nothing at all, except stoppage of the trains.
Q. There never has been any strike before where there was an attempt to destroy property?
A. No.
Q. Can you give us the amount, or an estimated amount, of the destruction of property at Pittsburgh?
A. Well, I think it is in the neighborhood--you mean what property?
Q. Belonging to the company?
A. About $2,000,000--various things we were interested in.
Q. Does that cover the merchandise?
A. Not at all.
Q. Simply the actual property of the company?
A. Yes; and it does not cover the consequent loss from the interruption of our business.
Q. But you include the destruction of cars, and engines, and shops, and tracks?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many cars were destroyed?
A. I have not got the number at the end of my fingers, but it is in the annual report of the company. It is all stated there, sir. I think it is summed up in that report, that the probable loss, by reason of this trouble, was about $5,000,000 to our company and to the community at large in Pittsburgh and the community elsewhere owning property in transit.
Q. In consequence of the riot that existed there?
A. Yes.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. That includes the merchandise?
A. Yes; it is an estimated amount of what we thought about the right thing--as near as we could get at it.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Did General Brinton telegraph you at Blairsville Junction that he, General Brinton, could clear the tracks with the force under his command?
A. I think General Brinton did telegraph me; but I do not recollect the details of it at all.
Q. At Blairsville Junction?
A. That he thought with troops properly located he could take care of it.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. In the interview you had with this committee, they stated their views on the reduction of ten per cent.?
A. That and several other questions connected with it.
Q. When did this ten per cent. reduction take place?
A. In June.
Q. Had there been any prior reduction?
A. Yes; in 1873, we made a reduction of ten per cent.--following the panic.
Q. Then in June you made another reduction?
A. Of ten per cent. It applied to everybody in the company--to men on the track, and in the shops, and on the engines, and in the depots, and every officer of the company.
By Mr. Yutzy:
Q. To all the employés?
A. To all getting above a dollar per day.
By Mr. Larrabee:
Q. Was this last reduction made in pursuance of any arrangement with any other road?
A. Not at all.
Q. Was there not a meeting of representatives of the trunk lines in Chicago in May sometime, at which matters were talked over?
A. I don't know--I was not there.
Q. Was there a representative of your company present?
A. There may have been. I don't know nor whether they had up the question of compensation to the men. Our action on the subject was based on the general results of the business of the company, and the necessity of some positive thing being done in aid of the company and in aid of the men as well.
Q. The action of your company, in this reduction, was solely by yourselves, without any understanding?
A. With the other trunk lines?
Q. Yes.
A. None whatever. I think they didn't make any reduction until July.
Q. Didn't the New York Central make a reduction about that time?
A. I think on the 1st of July.
Q. And the Baltimore and Ohio about that time?
A. Somewhere along there. I don't know the dates exactly.
Q. This reduction was arrived at by yourselves without any understanding with other roads?
A. Yes; we thought it proper to be done. I think, and believe now, that we were paying men then twenty per cent. above the average price paid for an equivalent amount of labor anywhere else.
Q. Do you remember the prices paid the trainmen?
A. I don't recollect, but I can get you the data if you want them. I don't recollect the details. Our wages differ a little on different divisions--they are not entirely uniform. There are some places where the living is more expensive, and there the compensation is higher. They are paid according to locality. There are some places where the cost of living is a great deal less than in others, and a difference is made in wages. It is always been so both on the track and roadway and the trainmen also.
Q. Do you know whether arrangements were made at Chicago to pool the earnings of the three trunk lines?
A. An attempt was made.
Q. But never carried out?
A. No.
Q. You don't know whether this question of wages was discussed at that meeting?
A. I don't know.
Q. You had no report made to you by the representative of your road who was there?
A. No.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. To pool the entire earnings of the road?
A. No; the competitive business to avoid disagreements, and to put all the shippers on a perfect equality, and get a fair living compensation for doing the work to be done. Through excessive competition, very often business was done resulting in a loss to the companies. They did the work for a great deal less than cost, and in doing, that with certain kinds of traffic, they did violence and injustice to other people at other points. That was one of the troubles with the city of Pittsburgh--perhaps their chief trouble.
Q. The purpose of it was to secure uniformity of freights?
A. And compensation to everybody.
Q. To shippers, too?
A. To shippers. In the early part of last year, the through business of the company was done below actual cost to every road that did it. During the first six months of last year, not a farthing was made on through competitive freight by any line.
Q. Was that agreed upon at that meeting in Chicago?
A. They made an effort, but didn't succeed in having it carried out practically.
Q. The trouble was in one line cutting down freights?
A. That is the allegation always--that somebody is cheating somebody else.
Q. It was attempted to carry it into effect?
A. Yes.
Q. For how long a time did you work at it?
A. Three or four months, probably, but finally it all broke up. On west-bound traffic we have an arrangement for a division of the business under low established rates, by which everybody is placed on a perfect equality. New York, a certain price, Philadelphia so much below that, and Baltimore, so much below that. Under that arrangement, the lines have been doing very much better than when in open warfare. I believe now that every west-bound shipper is placed on an entire equality.
Q. You have referred to Pittsburgh. Had there been complaints by shippers in Pittsburgh about discrimination?
A. Always.
Q. What were the complaints?
A. That through goods were carried at a less rate per ton per mile than their goods, and that we ought to be able to control that. I think I have tried diligently for the last five years of my life to get an arrangement or an agreement by which all these questions could be adjusted, and these discriminations of every character wiped out, and I went even to this trouble: I met a committee of merchants and manufacturers of the city of Pittsburgh, and went over the whole case with them. I said to them: gentlemen, there are times when it cannot be controlled. If we succeed in making this west-bound arrangement we will put all your interests here, so far as relates to the western markets, on a fair equality with everything that comes into competition with you from the east. I said so far as we are concerned, we have a strong desire to do just what you want done, and to that end we are working, and we will do anything we can do to bring it about; and if it should happen in the future that we must go through other and more violent wars than we have now passed, we will still agree that your trade in competition with like trade--that your manufacturing interests here shall be protected by at least ten per cent. less than the aggregate rates from points east of you. They expressed themselves very well satisfied with that arrangement.
Q. Can you give us any of the methods you have tried for the purpose of preventing those complaints by the people of Pittsburgh?
A. The general endeavor is to agree upon rates, and to adhere to them absolutely. We never charge in any case exceeding the rate charged from a distant point. In this arrangement, I referred to, for the city of Pittsburgh, I told them, in any possible state of things, we would make their rates ten per cent. less than any rate prevailing from any point east of them--Philadelphia, New York, or Baltimore. It sometimes happened that competition ruled so strong that we carried things from New York to Chicago lower than we did from Pittsburgh, and when engaged in one of these little troubles, the rates are frequently changed a dozen times in a day. Our aim always has been to put all the shippers on our road and all the intermediate shippers on rates as low as competition might force at the extremes. We think it is right, and endeavor to do it. There have been isolated cases when it is not done, as it may happen that a shipper from New York to-day will have a low rate on some specific kind of goods, while the shipper from Pittsburgh would be paying the rate that prevailed the day before. But whenever such cases came to our notice we gave a drawback. Sometimes they never came to our notice, but have been nursed up, and made a cause of trouble and complaint. Whenever we found the difference too great we always paid them back.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. By rebates?
A. Yes.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. There never has been a time when the price charged from Pittsburgh was greater than from any point beyond?
A. It never was the policy of the company that it should be so, but it has frequently happened in isolated cases that such was the case.
Q. Has that been the case for any length of time?
A. Never--not for any length of time.
Q. For a month at a time?
A. Oh, no--a day or two.
Q. How did freights compare in July last with what they had been for three months preceding that time?
A. They had been extremely low the whole of the year up to that time, and were then extremely low on east-bound business. On west-bound business on the 1st of July that arrangement was made to have a division of the business.
Q. How were freights after the strike was over?
A. On west-bound business, the arrangement that went into operation then is in operation now. On east-bound, every two or three weeks they have the same chronic trouble. After making an agreement, they violate it and break down, but as a general thing, the rates are better now than they were a year ago.
Q. How did rates compare the fore part of last season with the year before, at the same time?
A. Very much lower. Two reasons brought it about. First a short crop in the fall of 1876, when there was very little freight to come east--nothing at all equal to the facilities of the various companies, the result being a scramble and competition to get it, and prices ruled away below the cost of doing the work.
Q. How did the amount of freight or tonnage during the months of May and June, 1877, compare with the months of May and June, 1876?
A. It was not so heavy, but after the harvest of last year--and it was a heavy crop all over the west--and in consequence of the European war, which cause a demand, the roads had better tonnage.
Q. Was there any difference in the local freights?
A. They were greater in quantity all along our line. The crops were better.
Q. How did the local rates compare with the previous year?
A. They were on the same general basis as the previous year. I don't think there was any change, unless we got into those violent competitions, when we would reduce our local as well as through rates.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Did you ship goods or freight cheaper from New York to San Francisco than from Pittsburgh to San Francisco, such as steel or iron?
A. I think that has occurred a number of times. The rates are made by the Union and Central Pacific roads. At New York they come into competition with the Pacific mail and sailing vessels around Cape Horn, and on account of that competition, the rates are made low.
Q. Less from New York to San Francisco than from Pittsburgh?
A. Yes.
Q. Has it been the custom on your road to get a larger rate from New York than from Pittsburgh?
A. Yes; on our road we get a larger rate from New York than from Pittsburgh.
Q. Do you mean per ton per mile?
A. No. I mean the aggregate rate. The Pacific road fixes its own prices from Chicago west-bound.
Q. Can you not ship freight at a less rate per ton per mile for a long distance than for a short?
A. I think we can. It saves the intermediate handling.
Q. Do you know of any instance where iron or steel has been shipped from Pittsburgh to New York and from there to San Francisco by rail?
A. No.
Q. Because the rates would be cheaper?
A. No. I have understood of one or two cases where drugs were sent from Pittsburgh to New York, and these came into competition with drugs shipped by ocean, and were then shipped on back.
Q. Did the cheap rates at New York arise from competition with water transportation?
A. Yes; at sea. That only applies to heavy articles, about which there is no question of time or of insurance. It may apply to heavy drugs; but it does not apply to dry goods or groceries, or things like that.
Q. Are your local freight rates governed by your through rates in any way?
A. To the extent that whenever through rates come down below the local charges we reduce the local charges.
Q. Proportionately?
A. No; but we do not exceed on our local business the amount charged on other roads.
Q. Do you reduce the rates on local traffic when you reduce them on other traffic in equal proportion?
A. No. Say the rate from Chicago to New York is fifty cents, and the rate from Philadelphia or Harrisburg is fifty cents, and the rate from New York should be reduced to forty or thirty, we reduce the other rate.
Q. To the same per centage?
A. The same gross rate.
By Mr. Lindsey:
Q. Was there any strike in the city of Philadelphia among your employés?
A. There was some striking among the men on our trains.
Q. When did that first break out?
A. Probably a day or two after the trouble at Pittsburgh. I think the trouble occurred here on Friday night or Saturday.
Q. Among what class of your employés.
A. The trainmen entirely.
Q. Did it include the engineers?
A. No.
Q. The brakemen, firemen, and conductors?
A. Yes; the trainmen--on freight trains.
Q. Did they interfere with your property in any way here?
A. They declined to run the trains out, and said their lives were in danger, and the result was the trains didn't go for several days. It didn't apply to the Northern Central road or the New York division.
Q. Did they attempt to interfere with the property of the road?
A. Destroy it?
Q. Yes?
A. Not at all. I think they felt themselves bound by some organization that seemed to have control of them, not to do anything or allow others to take their places, and, therefore, it was simply a stand off policy--the trains didn't go. But they attempted no destruction of property at all.
Q. Did it become necessary for you to call on the civil authorities here?
A. Yes. There was a great deal of threatening all over town in regard to the possibility of serious trouble, and we had some trouble at the yards in West Philadelphia. Engines were taken from trains.
Q. What steps did you take for protection here?