Part 111

A. Yes, sir; we were consulting together, of course, about the most feasible means or measures--what to do with this exigency there. If you remember, we were but a handful of men ourselves, and there all night long. Could not get our troops into Pittsburgh, wires were cut, lines of railroad were stopped, and our great anxiety was to get as many troops as possible into the city to protect the city. The idea was, this first division would make a junction--that the Fourteenth and Nineteenth regiments having disbanded, you might say virtually disbanded. Having left the Eighteenth regiment at three o'clock in the morning, it was our desire to get the First division form a junction with the Eighteenth regiment, and come into the city to protect property which was then on fire.

Q. Where did Brinton say he was going to when he was asked to return, and refused to?

A. He said he was going to the open country, where he would entrench, and take up a position to protect his troops. Whether he was going to Butler county or further north, I do not know. That was his remark--that he was going to the open country. Where he found that open country is more than I know, if he ever did find it. We did hear that he was marching to Philadelphia.

Q. Did General Brinton say anything that would lead you to think that he did not recognize Colonel Norris as an officer?

A. Did he say to us?

Q. Did he make any remarks to that effect, that led you to think he did not recognize him?

A. No, sir.

* * * * *

THURSDAY EVENING, _April 18, 1878_.

The committee met, at the call of the chairman, in Senate committee room No. 6. All present except Mr. Larrabee. Mr. Lindsey in the chair.

* * * * *

David Branson, _sworn_:

Q. State your residence?

A. No. 1315, South Broad street, Philadelphia.

Q. What is your business?

A. Coal merchant.

Q. A member of the National Guard?

A. Yes; I was last secretary, and am still quarter-master, of the Sixth regiment of infantry; but during the commotion acted as brigade quartermaster and commissary, on the staff of General Loud, commanding the Second brigade of the First division.

Q. Did you accompany the troops to Pittsburgh?

A. Yes; in the first expedition that started, and remained with the division until it returned in August. Present for duty all the time.

Q. On Saturday evening, state where you were--what your position was, on Saturday evening of the troubles at Pittsburgh?

A. I was on duty with the brigade in the yards of the company, between the Union Depot hotel and the round-house, engaged in overlooking the line of the men, which kept back the crowd from that portion of the company's property.

Q. Were you in the round-house during the night?

A. In the round-house during the whole night.

Q. Did you leave with the troops in the morning?

A. Yes; the last officer to leave the building.

Q. State, if you please, whether the building was on fire or not when you left?

A. The buildings were all more or less afire when I left.

Q. How extensive was the fire in and about the round-house at the time you went out?

A. At the time the troops commenced to march out, there had been considerable burning of the buildings which we occupied, some of which had been put out, and re-kindled by the burning cars that were run down against the building. That happened two or three times. We thought it was impossible to keep the fire from spreading, and decided to abandon the building. At the time the troops were going out, all the buildings were on fire, and in some of them the fire had got very extensive; so much so, that I felt hot when I went through the last door.

Q. You accompanied the troops on their march out Penn avenue, did you?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were you at the arsenal grounds?

A. Didn't go into the arsenal grounds, and didn't witness the interview between Brinton and Buffington. At that time, I was engaged in re-forming the troops. They had been broken up by the killed and wounded.

Q. Were you present when Colonel Norris overtook General Brinton?

A. Yes; when Colonel Norris overtook us beyond Sharpsburg, I was between the two brigades, the first brigade was marching in the rear, some of them assisting the men in charge of the Gatlings, dragging them up the hill. The other brigade had halted to give them time to catch up, and Major Norris arrived in a carriage or a hack, accompanied by some other party whom I didn't know, and Norris not recognizing me, stuck his head out of the side of the hack and told his driver to stop, and asked where General Brinton was. I told him a little further in advance, and I would go and show him, and went up with him about one hundred yards further, and found General Brinton sitting beside of the road, waiting for the troops to close up.

Q. You walked with him?

A. Walked with him. Walked hastily to him, found him waiting there, and he expressed great gratification to find the general again, they being old personal friends, and showed a good deal of feeling in the matter, and seemed very much exhausted and excited and worn out, evidently with loss of sleep and over-exertion, and the excitement of the occasion. Seemed almost dazed in his appearance by the state of affairs. He immediately inquired of General Brinton, what he proposed to do, and where he was going, and how much he had suffered. The general told him how he had got along. He had got out that way in order to find a place where supplies could reach us, and feed the men and get some supplies to feed the troops and get a little rest. They were completely exhausted with want of sleep and food. Colonel Norris assented to that, as about the only thing that could be done, and asked Brinton what he wanted him to do. Repeated the question several times in the course of the conversation: what do you want me to do, stay with you or go back and see what I can do outside. The General said there was nothing he wanted so much as provisions. That was the substance of the conversation. There was nothing in the form of an order given. The whole conversation was a discussion as to what had best be done, and what he, Brinton, intended to do, and what he wished Norris to do for him to help him. He had arrived there with the impression that we had suffered much more than we had.

Q. Did the gentleman who was with Colonel Norris get out of the carriage and accompany you up to where General Brinton was?

A. He didn't accompany him. He may have got out of the carriage afterwards. I never noticed, after Norris got out of the carriage. I never saw him, to my knowledge.

Q. Was he present when you met General Brinton?

A. No, sir. He might have been a short distance in the rear, following us up. I didn't see him. He was not close to us. There was a few officers gathered around. I didn't see anybody else.

Q. Officers of----

A. Our division staff officers. And General Loud was there at about the time the conversation commenced. I think General Matthews joined us afterwards. There was several of the staff there, and I was there, by authority of the position which I occupied on the staff, ready to receive any instructions that might be given.

Q. Was the division all right when Colonel Norris and you overtook General Brinton?

A. The brigade that was marching in advance was halted, waiting for the other to close up; the other was staying back in order to give the men with the Gatling guns time to get up the hill--the brigade in the rear wouldn't go on and leave the men with the guns back there unprotected. We had to halt several times, during our march, on that account. Halted the head of the column, and let the others close up.

Q. Did General Brinton and Colonel Norris sit down and have a conversation together, upon a bank or a log? Do you recollect that?

A. I don't think they exactly sat down. I think they surrounded, or stood around, a log or stone, with one foot on it, or grouped together--pretty close together--and four or five of us lounged around, waiting for those to close up. I couldn't specify the exact position I was in. There was nothing said without my hearing it, unless some whispering, and I didn't notice any.

Q. Did the carriage remain back?

A. Some little distance back of where we were. The driver came up close to us, when Colonel Norris went to get in again. The carriage approached us. I don't know exactly the time; and he went away.

Q. Did Colonel Norris say anything about Captain Aull's having an order for General Brinton?

A. I didn't hear Captain Aull's name mentioned. Never heard of such a man until long afterwards.

Q. Did he say anything to General Brinton about returning and joining Colonel Guthrie at Torrens?

A. I didn't hear anything about joining him. General Brinton asked questions about where the other troops were. Talked to Norris, and made inquiries where the other troops were, and why they didn't come to his relief, and how disappointed they were that they didn't come, and matters of that kind.

Q. Did he tell Colonel Norris that General Latta had given an order to Captain Aull.

A. I didn't hear anything of the kind. Didn't hear anything said about orders.

Q. Were you present during the whole of the time that they were together?

A. I was not more than four paces away all the time they were together. If anything was said that I didn't hear, it must have been purposely said in an undertone to avoid being overheard.

Q. Did you know Mr. Stewart, who accompanied Colonel Norris?

A. Didn't know him. Never heard of the man before.

Q. Did you see any person in the group not an officer in the command?

A. No, sir.

Q. Do you recognize Major Stewart here as being the man who came up with Colonel Norris?

A. No, sir; I didn't recognize him. If that was the man, he looked very different on that occasion.

Q. Did you see him?

A. I don't remember of seeing him before.

Q. Do you remember of seeing any person?

A. I saw a man in the carriage with Colonel Norris.

Q. Did he accompany you, or did he come up afterwards and join the group?

A. He must have kept in the background--might have kept back behind us--didn't crowd up into the group.

Q. But did Brinton and Colonel Norris have any conversation by themselves?

A. Didn't appear to have any.

Q. Or in an undertone that could not be heard by the others?

A. Didn't hear anything of the kind going on. There appeared to be no effort to conceal what they were saying from any of the staff. They talked above an ordinary tone of voice.

Q. Have you given all the conversation that took place as near as you recollect it?

A. I couldn't give the exact wording of the conversation, as I never expected to be questioned about it; but the whole tone and manner of the conversation was as I have stated--asking for information on both sides, and an expression of disappointment on the part of General Brinton, why the troops had not joined him, his intentions as to procuring rest and food for his troops, and his desire, in answer to Colonel Norris' question what he should do, that Norris should go back and assist in getting provisions to him, and if there had been any order given it should certainly have been made known to me at once.

By Mr. Means:

Q. Will you state to this committee what transpired with the troops during that night in the round-house, and what took place there during the night--about their going out of the round-house--you were there. I believe you said that you were about the last man leaving it, didn't you?

A. Yes; the orders given me require me to be the last man to leave.

Q. If you please, just state to this committee what transpired during the night about their leaving the round-house, and what condition the troops were in when they left it, and what condition the round-house was in?

A. Commencing with after we were stationed in the round-house, the mob commenced to gather around, and, in a short time, they began to fire pistols, and throw stones into the windows, smashing all the windows, and breaking the furniture inside with the missiles they threw in. Shot the sentinels at the gate, wounded other men inside, most of them not seriously. We didn't know at that time whether they were seriously injured or not. Finally, a large number made their appearance with muskets, and commenced firing with rifle balls.

Q. That was the crowd outside?

A. The crowd outside. Along about dusk this thing got warm.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Was this immediately before retiring from the round-house?

A. Saturday evening about dusk. That had begun to get right hot, balls commenced to come in very thick and heavy, and some of the rioters emboldened by our not returning the fire, which we were ordered by General Pearson not to, had come up to the gates pointing out at the head of Twenty-eight streets, and commenced sticking their pistols through the gates, and shot two sentries stationed there.

Q. Soldiers standing there?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were they Philadelphia soldiers?

A. Yes; they shot those two men. They were dragged away by their comrades. Still they would not allow us to fire. While this was going on, we staff officers busied ourselves in making preparations for the slaughter of the crowd, which we thought was bound to come, and was the proper thing to do to extinguish the rioters, and stationed soldiers at the different windows, and got the artillery in proper position--brass pieces and two Gatlings--gave instructions to the infantry not to fire until the artillery opened, knowing, of course, the artillery wouldn't fire without orders from proper authority. When the fire got pretty hot and the sentries were shot down, General Brinton got pretty warm about it, and insisted upon being allowed to fire, and went up to one of the offices where General Pearson made his head-quarters.

Q. Did you go to General Pearson?

A. Went to General Pearson. I followed him in, and he explained the necessity of being allowed to open fire on the rioters, that he could not stand this thing any longer, that the men were being shot down in cold blood, and now was the time; and Pearson says, "No, no; we must hold on a little longer; the thing must quiet down a little; don't let us have any more bloodshed"--some such thing as that. General Brinton replied, that it was only getting worse, the longer we put off the worse it would be, and Pearson said, "No; we might kill more innocent people. There might be some innocent women and children killed," and made replies of that kind to justify himself in not allowing the firing, which the staff officers standing by--I think about four in number were present besides the general--they were of opinion it ought to be done, and still he would not allow it, and several of us made some remarks on the subject--several of the staff officers.

Q. Be kind enough to state what those remarks were?

A. They were to the effect, that if we were going to do any shooting, now is the time to do it, and the remark I made to him was, if we were going to kill anybody--at first I said there were no women and children in that crowd.

Q. Was that remark made to General Brinton?

A. I made this to General Pearson, in the presence of General Brinton and some two or three or four other officers.

Q. You were addressing General Pearson?

A. I addressed General Pearson, right over General Brinton's shoulder--alongside of him. My rank did not justify it, but my old army rank did, and I presumed to advise him. Says I, "If we are going to do any killing, these are the men to kill. There are no women and children--they are all active rioters;" and he replied, "No, don't fire. You do not know who you will hurt; the artillery will shoot clear through the crowd." Just at that time the men in charge of the Gatling gun again moved it nearer the gate, and he saw the motion outside, or heard the wheels of the gun, and he jumped up and went to the window and motioned not to fire. "Don't fire, don't fire, don't fire," he said; "if they fire, the balls might shoot some innocent woman on a doorstep a mile away down street." That disgusted me so, I sneeringly remarked, if they were afraid of killing people so far off as that, let us fire with infantry, that won't hurt any a mile away, by shooting out of a second story window; and he said, "No, no; don't fire; it will all quiet down; you will kill some innocent people." Then I turned away in disgust, and left him. He went down stairs, and was about three quarters of the opinion to go down in the shadow of the building and give the command to fire anyhow. I changed my mind, for fear that the Pittsburgh troops might be coming around the corner. I am sorry afterwards that I did not give the order.

Q. Were you in the service during the late rebellion?

A. Yes; five years and one week.

Q. What rank?

A. I went in as a private and came out as a colonel and brigade commander.

Q. As a military officer, what should you have done under the circumstances?

A. I should have opened fire with every weapon we had, at just about dusk, from the most available points at the time that General Brinton asked him to allow him to do so. The mob was so dense at that time they could hardly have got out of each others way. They were composed of very different material from the mob at Twenty-eighth street, where the first conflict occurred, the better class having disappeared, and the worst came to the front. The criminal classes, vagrants, bummers, and tramps of every kind, and such men as we call night owls--never seen in day time, were conspicuous in front, urging each other on. A class of the population that would benefit the community by fertilizing the soil. I think at that time, if we had killed those men, it would have silenced the whole riot.

Q. As a military man and having military experience, do you believe that General Brinton had force enough there to have cleared that track and taken possession of the railroad property.

A. At that time, if we had acted at that time, at dusk, we would had no more trouble.

Q. Do you believe that if General Brinton had the privilege to have let his command fire on that mob, could he have taken possession of the track and of the railroad property?

A. Yes; if General Pearson had allowed us to fire at the time General Brinton wished to do so, we would have destroyed the mob, and could have taken possession of anything around that neighborhood. All that would have been left of the mob would not have made any fight.

Q. I understand you to say in your testimony, that the round-house was on fire before General Brinton's command left it?

A. Yes; all the buildings. We not only occupied the round-house, but several other buildings that form a yard between them.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Wings of the round-house?

A. There were shops. There is a round-house, and engine houses, and machine shops, and there was a wood-working shop, and a car repair shop, and an upholstery shop, and then the company's offices. They are all connected together, and form a small yard in between them.

Q. Were they attached to the round-house?

A. One came in direct contact with the round-house, or within two or three feet of it, and another within ten feet of it, and there was a space wide enough for two teams to pass between them. We had artillery in this yard and in towards the gates, and the different detachments of troops occupied the different buildings--men were stationed at the windows.

By Mr. Means:

Q. One more question, and I believe I am done. What kind of discipline were the troops under while in the round-house?

A. I considered, for militia, uncommonly good discipline. They obeyed every order I heard given. I will say this: very much to my surprise, from the time I left Philadelphia, there never was an officer or soldier under me that refused to obey an order I gave him. Further than that, I would say, their obedience to the order not to fire, under the aggravating circumstances in the round-house and on the street the next day, when they were fired at constantly with pistols, was one of the most remarkable exhibitions of good discipline I ever witnessed in all my military experience. That is a test of discipline.

Q. Do you know of any arrangement, or any effort made, to furnish the troops with provisions at Torrens station, or at any other place, after you left the round-house?

A. The first I knew about the provision business, was what I have said about Colonel Norris and General Brinton talking, and then, again, in the evening, when Major Barr overtook us, near the poor-house. He was sent back to arrange about provisions, and we got provisions in the night. We got some provisions at the poor-house.

Q. What was the messenger's name in the carriage with you--that rode in the carriage with you? Did you not say there was a party rode in the carriage, when you met General Brinton? Who was with Colonel Norris?

A. I do not know who the gentleman was that was with Major Norris. I was not acquainted with him, and never saw him before. Do not know anything about it.

Q. Do you know if he got out of the carriage and walked up with you?

A. Did not see him get out of the carriage. I could not say positively that he got out of the carriage at all. He might have done so. I did not look back to see.

By Mr. Larrabee:

Q. Did you say that the troops had orders not to fire upon the men that were following them, firing, on Sunday morning.

A. That was in order not to bring on a conflict as long as we could avoid it--to pay no attention to them. They were firing with pistols, and I did not reply to them, until they commenced to fire with rifles--a number of men.

Q. Did General Brinton give orders to that effect?

A. I do not know who the orders came from. I got orders from my brigade commander, General Loud.

Q. That the troops were not to fire upon the mob that were following on?

A. It was not so much on the mob following, as people on the sidewalk, and in the doors and windows of the houses, firing with small pistols?

Q. At the time there was firing by the troops?

A. After a time, when the rioters in different places, under cover, generally, at the windows, and behind signs, and around corners of buildings, commenced firing with rifles, then we returned that fire. In some cases the men standing on the sidewalk deliberately pulled out pistols, and fired at the rear of the column, just as we got by there. In one case I saw a man standing within four feet of a policeman on one side of him, and a squad of policemen, about ten or twenty feet on his other flank--saw this man, who was in citizen's dress, take a revolver and fire into our ranks, and no reply was made to him.

Q. No effort made by the police to interfere with him?

A. No; they looked on as if it was a dog fight.

Q. Did that shot hit any of the soldiers?

A. One shot I know took effect. They fired just as the rear of the column was getting by.

Q. At the police station?

A. It was right near a police station or an engine-house.

Q. Where the police were standing?

A. A group of them standing there. It was a municipal building. I think it must have been a fire station from the appearance of it. I looked back--we had just got by--and I judge, from the appearance of the building in Philadelphia, that it was a fire station. I was told since that it was. Those policemen were in uniform--quite a number of them--certainly seven or eight. There might have been a dozen of them, and no large crowd near to interfere with them in case they had chosen to arrest the man. I heard other firing at the same time, which, I believe, has been testified to by others as being done by policemen. I did not actually hear a policeman fire. There was more than one man fired--firing from the other side. I noticed this one man, particularly.

By Senator Yutzy:

Q. Where did this firing come from, parties on the sidewalks or from houses?