Part 108
A. Yes, I did. It is no idle thing to come out here and shoot down twenty-two people that were innocent. If they had been rioters or strikers, if they had had any part or lot in this thing and had shot them down, they would have been right. I would not have blamed you. I do not blame the committee, of course, but I do say this: it was no more and no less than murder to shoot down these people as they were shot down. I think that is the fullest and best account of the riot that appeared in any Pittsburgh paper.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Mr. Carson, do you say and do you think, in your opinion--had the press time to deliberate--do you believe they would have written so sarcastic an article as that?
A. There is no paper in the city of Pittsburgh, published on the eventful Sunday morning of that day, that would not have put some such article as that in their paper.
Q. Understand me right. Had the press had time to deliberate, would they have cast these articles broadcast to the world?
A. No, sir; they would not, but that Sunday morning--Monday morning there was a change. I understand you----
Q. This was done, Mr. Carson, on the spur of the moment?
A. It was done when we knew--when we had four reporters out there, when they were bringing in the intelligence of the murder, as we deemed it then, and as the grand jury has since, by their presentment presented, and when they were shot down without orders, we wrote those head-lines. I did not, but I am responsible. That is why we did it.
Q. You say you wrote the balance of the article?
A. No; four reporters did. The head-lines--I am responsible for every line that appears there but the head-line. And that editorial, I dictated that. That is entirely my own, and every word of it--I stand over it to-day, after months have elapsed. The head-lines--I did not know of it until the next morning.
Q. You say in this editorial, "It is impossible for us to conceive that the action of the railroad strikers, taking the worst view of their side of the case, justified the calling out of the military"--what do you mean by that?
A. I mean their action was passive--was not aggressive. They simply were there. They refused to work, and I furthermore believe, that had there been any conciliation, or attempt at conciliation, used by Scott or their pampered officials, that it could have been arranged. That is my candid belief.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Suppose that the railroad officials had agreed to comply with the request of the strikers--is that what you mean?
A. I do not mean that. I mean if there was any attempt made, but there was not any. They assumed the attitude of tyrants--were overbearing, were tyrannical, and they were abusive.
Q. What reason have you to believe, Mr. Carson, that the strikers would have gone to work had the railroad officials not raised their wages?
A. I can only say in reply to that, I believe they could have been conciliated, and there could have been an adjustment of troubles, and more than that I cannot say. I believe it could have been managed.
Q. Without the increase of wages?
A. I do. I believe even that.
Q. You believe, then, that the strikers would have conceded to the ten per cent. being taken off?
A. Yes, I do. But you treat a workingman as a dog, and he will be very apt, like a worm, to turn. It was not so much the reduction as it was they wanted to crush out all the manhood in him, and trample him into the dust. They treated them with no consideration at all. They treated them as just so much machinery. I do not want to interject a speech into my evidence, but if you want a speech I can give it to you on that question.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Had the strikers--had the men sent a committee to the railroad officials?
A. Yes--and how was the committee received.
Q. How?
A. I do not know. If you want me to tell you how I was told they were received, I will tell you; I do not know of my own knowledge.
Q. You must have some grounds for forming an opinion.
A. I will give you that now. They were received with the utmost haughtiness. They were dismissed with a wave of the hand. They said, "We will make no terms, no concessions with you. Go back to your wages--go to work--then we will talk to you. We will have nothing at all to do with you." Now that was the way they were received.
Q. Were they not told that if they would retire from the company's property, and allow the company to enjoy its property and its rights, that they would receive them?
A. No, sir, never heard of it; no, sir. Not the most sanguine man that knows anything about the Pennsylvania railroad officials in western Pennsylvania would ever say such a thing either. I make that a part of my testimony.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Do you pretend to say that the----
A. I pretend to say that the railroad officials in western Pennsylvania, on the part of the Pennsylvania railroad, are tyrants, and serfs in Russia have better lives to lead than employés on the Pennsylvania railroad. There is no serfdom in Russia--if the reporter will make that correction. Slavery has been abolished in America, and has been abolished in Russia, but there is a modified form of it on the Pennsylvania----
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. What do you mean when you say that the "hated company discriminates against the interests of Pittsburgh and western Pennsylvania?"
A. Do you want me to talk on that subject? I can talk for five hours. I say they have systematically discriminated against Pittsburgh, and they have ruined it--that is what they have done. They will carry freight from Pittsburgh--they have systematically discriminated against Pittsburgh to the extent of twenty-five per cent., and when Colonel Scott was here, he said he was horrified. He had not dreamed there was such discrimination. He could not believe it possible; and James Parke, junior, who was one of our most eminent citizens, a Christian gentleman, too, he said it was true. Why, said he, I could not believe it possible. We know it's possible--we know it has ruined Pennsylvania; and the only thing that is going to help us is a competing road, and that, thank God, we will have in the course of three or four months.
Q. Let me ask you, what do you mean by discriminating?
A. it means that they will carry freight from Chicago to Philadelphia cheaper than they will carry from Chicago to Pittsburgh; that they will carry cheaper from Chicago to Albany than they will carry it to Pittsburgh; that Pittsburgh merchants can take goods to Boston, and take them to San Francisco a great deal cheaper--paying the freight to Boston and back--a great deal cheaper than they can ship them direct to San Francisco. There were three thousand tons shipped by Wilson, Walker & Co., to Boston, and from Boston to San Francisco, paying the freight to Boston and back. That is what made trouble in this community. They have been systematically oppressing Pittsburgh. There is no manufacturer unless he has got drawbacks and rebates.
By Mr. Means:
Q. This trouble might just as well have fallen on some other portion of the State as it did on Pittsburgh, would it not?
Q. It could have, and I think would, had we not anticipated the whole trouble here. There was not a community in the State of Pennsylvania, which would have sympathized to the extent that we did. I will answer why: we would have sympathized because we have been systematically oppressed for the last fifteen years. We have been practically ruined.
Q. This thing was as likely to occur at Harrisburg or Scranton or Reading, as it was at Pittsburgh, but, unfortunately, Pittsburgh was the place.
A. We bore the blunt of it. We were the first to receive it, and it found the community in full sympathy with the strikers, because of their sufferings. You systematically oppress a people, and revolution is not only right, but it is a duty.
Q. You say the community--did your merchants give aid and abet in this strike?
A. They did not. They were in sympathy with the strikers; but I was up on Sunday, there at the Union depot, and I saw the people. Saw that they were burning, and all that kind of thing. I did not see a single Pittsburgher. They were all strange faces, and not a face there that was familiar to me, and I am thoroughly familiar with Pittsburgh. They were tramps gathered from all parts of the Union.
Q. That is not the question I asked you. The question I asked you was this: if the merchants of the city of Pittsburgh sympathized with the strikers?
A. They did.
Q. Sympathized with the mob in their violence?
A. No, sir. I went up to the Union depot on Sunday, between one and three o'clock in the afternoon. I saw that mob, and there was not a single Pittsburgh face in it. They were all strangers--tramps, and the strikers had gone away.
Q. No strikers among them.
A. No; I did not see any.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was there any sympathy expressed by the good portions of the citizens of this city after the burning and destruction of property had commenced?
A. On the contrary, the utmost detestation of the ravages of the mob. They sympathized with the strikers in their demand for higher wages. Ninety cents is not much for a man to live on, and I would like to see you gentlemen try to live on it.
Q. Was there any expression of sympathy on the part of citizens with the mob that attacked the troops in the round-house before the burning took place?
A. I rather imagine that the feeling of the community was that the men who had murdered----
Q. I want you to answer the question, whether there was an expression and sentiment to that effect.
A. No; no organized expression.
Q. Was there any individual expression?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Of good citizens?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Justifying the attack upon the troops in the round-house?
A. No; not justifying the attack on the troops in the round-house?
Q. Or in their retreat from the round-house?
A. No; but there was a feeling that it was no more than retributive justice--there was no urging that to be done.
Q. There seems to be an article in the nature of an advertisement, commencing, "Attention Citizens," &c.
A. I cannot tell you about that. That is an advertisement. I did not see that, and I do not know who put it in, even.
By Mr. Means:
Q. That part you claim that you are not responsible for?
A. I do not know anything about an advertisement. A man pays for it and he gets them in.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Was that paid for?
A. I presume so. I am not business manager. I am responsible for whatever is written there. I assume that responsibility wholly.
Q. Do you know of any articles that were published in your paper that were calculated to arouse and inflame the people that were paid for for insertion?
A. No, sir; I did not.
By Mr. Means:
Q. Have you got any idea who wrote that article, if you were paid for it?
A. I do not know who wrote it. I do not know anything about that.
Q. In writing an article--supposing I was even competent to write an article for your paper, and would wish to suppress my name, would not you require to have my name, so that if you were come back upon you could get it?
A. In regard to that, that is not an article, it is an advertisement.
Q. It might come under that head. I think it would keep you very busy to make that out an advertisement. I do not claim to be a newspaper man, but it would keep me pretty busy to make that out?
A. It was paid for, or it would not have been in, because I have assumed the responsibility for everything that was in there, but I do not assume for that, because I do not know anything about it.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. That was paid for as an advertisement?
A. I have no doubt that our business manager could give you proper information. I am willing to assume any responsibility. I do not shirk that, but that is a matter that is not in my line. That is a business advertisement.
By Mr. Means:
Q. I am not a newspaper man, but, I suppose, if I should write an article for your paper, you would require the name?
A. Look at the position it occupies; it is put among the advertisements, I believe.
Senator Reyburn: No, sir.
Mr. Means: No, sir; it would hardly bear that construction.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Is not the editor of a paper responsible for anything that is published in his paper, whether it is an advertisement or anything else?
A. He is.
Q. And therefore you are responsible, as editor of that paper, for that advertisement?
A. I am.
Q. Now, give us the name of the man that had that advertisement put in?
A. I cannot.
Q. Can you give us any party that can give us the name?
A. Our business manager probably could.
Q. Who is he?
A. E. G. Minnemeyer.
* * * * *
W. F. Aull, _sworn_:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. Pittsburgh.
Q. Were you a member of the National Guard of the State of Pennsylvania in July last?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. What position did you hold?
A. Captain of the Eighteenth regiment.
Q. Did you receive an order from General Latta, ordering General Brinton to take a certain route after leaving the round-house, in case he was driven from the round-house?
A. I received an order from General Latta, after they had left the round-house, to deliver to General Brinton, with instructions to deliver to him at the arsenal. It was then supposed he was located at the arsenal.
Q. Did you deliver that order to General Brinton?
A. No, sir.
Q. Can you give the substance of the order?
A. Yes, sir. On Sunday morning, we were lying at Torrens station. Communication had been cut off, both by telegraph and couriers. We had no communication with General Latta at all, and Colonel Guthrie requested me to go to the Union depot, and endeavor, if possible, to obtain an interview with General Latta, and ask him what orders he had to issue for our regiment. I went to the Union depot, and, on my way there, I passed the Philadelphia troops just coming out of the round-house. I went to the Union depot and reported to General Latta that the troops were out of the round-house, and on their way out Penn avenue--I do not know where. He waited a few moments, and a messenger came in, stating that they had left the round-house, and had gone to the arsenal. Another one came in in a few moments, saying that they were quartered in the arsenal. General Latta, after deliberating for a few moments over the matter, and consulting one or two parties there, requested me to remain a few moments until he would write an order. I did not know what the substance of the order was at all, and, after I had started, he told me to take that order to General Brinton at the arsenal, and, as soon as I left the Union depot, I read the order, which was instructing General Brinton to proceed by way of Penn avenue to East Liberty, and join Colonel Guthrie. I went immediately to the arsenal, and I found that they were not quartered there at all. I made inquiry and was told they had gone on out Butler street. I drove on up Butler street as rapidly as possible, and when I got to Sharpsburg, or two miles beyond there, they told me they were stationed two miles ahead of me, on the other side of the river. There was a gentleman remarked there that they were striking for Butler county. I deliberated a few moments whether I would follow them, or report first to the regiment, and consult Colonel Guthrie. I finally concluded I would go to my regiment, at East Liberty, and, if Colonel Guthrie thought it advisable, after consulting him, I would go across the river, and deliver the order to General Brinton. Upon handing the order to Colonel Guthrie, he instructed me to take command of the regiment, and he would go to town and see General Latta in person, which he did. I never saw the order from that time until this. A day or two afterwards, however, I received a telegram from General Latta, requesting me, for the first time, to report what action I had taken in the matter, and I reported to him by letter, which is published in the Adjutant General's report, I see.
Q. Did you read the order to Colonel Norris, or did he see the order, to your knowledge?
A. Yes; I showed him the order at the arsenal. He overtook me at the arsenal coming up a different route, and started for East Liberty. I hailed him, and told him he was on the wrong road. I told him I had an order here, producing it, I think. I think I told him I had an order for General Brinton, and I was going on to overtake him, and he turned immediately and went on ahead of me. I went back to my buggy and he went on ahead of me, and I did not overtake him. He understood, however, what was in the order. I believe he read the order before it left General Latta, at the Union depot.
Q. Who was responsible for the delivery of that order, handed you by General Latta for General Brinton?
A. Who was responsible for its delivery?
Q. For its delivery or its non-delivery?
A. My instructions were to deliver the order to General Brinton in the arsenal. When I found he was not in the arsenal, and my instructions being to report back to my regiment, I considered my first duty, after I found he had gone away outside of my route, was to report to my colonel and see what he would do. He then advised me to remain where I was, and said he would go with the order to General Latta, which he did. He took the order, put it in his pocket, and left the regiment on Sunday about eleven o'clock, I think, and went in and had an interview with General Latta.
Q. You were at Torrens station?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. You know nothing of the movement of the troops during Saturday night and Sunday morning?
A. I received an order on Sunday morning, at two o'clock, to join Colonel somebody, from Wall station, and move to Twenty-eighth street. We went to Torrens station, and received ammunition sent there for them, and waited there until the next morning, and they never put in an appearance.
* * * * *
August Ammon, _sworn_:
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Where do you reside?
A. City of Pittsburgh.
Q. What is your occupation?
A. I am insurance agent.
Q. Are you the father of Robert Ammon, known as Bob Ammon during the troubles in July?
A. Yes; I am.
Q. Have you any knowledge of the occurrences during that time in Allegheny City?
A. I have, somewhat. I felt, of course, it was natural that I should feel an interest, seeing that my son was concerned there.
Q. Were you in Allegheny City at the time?
A. No, sir.
Q. Have you any personal knowledge of any of the occurrences over there?
A. Not of the occurrences. My aims were directed to inspire Robert as much as possible--to prevent destruction of property. I sent messages and communications to him frequently, almost hourly.
Q. To that effect?
A. Yes, sir.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. Your son Robert testified in Philadelphia that he had some communications with some parties that were concerned in the railroad, either the officials of the railroad company and the civil authorities of Allegheny City--have you any of these communications--the originals?
A. Yes, sir; Robert handed them to me in the jail of Allegheny City, and I turned them over to his lawyer. I would have brought them up this morning, but Mr. Miller was sick. I did not go to see them until this afternoon. I have those that I deemed the most important here.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. In whose handwriting are they?
A. I do not know.
Q. Do you know your son's handwriting?
A. Yes. They were dispatches which he received there.
Q. Just select them in their order?
A. Now here is the first one I present here. I have read them over so often that I am familiar with them, and if you will permit I will read them.
By Senator Reyburn:
Q. Read that one [indicating?]
A. This dispatch is directed to Allegheny City, at the outer depot, where Robert had his station, reads as follows:
"Operator, do anything to save property, and if engines and freight can be moved out of the city and men enough to do it, and the strikers will permit, run them west on north track far enough to be safe from any damage from Pittsburgh men. Give copy to Ammon. G. S. G."
If you desire an explanation of these, those initials signify "George S. Griscom," whose duty it was to send them. A gentleman by the name of W. A. Routson occupied his place.
Q. What position?
A. The position of Mr. Griscom, during his absence.
Q. What is Mr. Griscom's position?
A. He is a railroad official. Kind of assistant superintendent, Mr. Layng is general superintendent, and those gentlemen are next to him.
By Senator Yutzy:
Q. That was not signed by Griscom?
A. Not that. Routson signed these dispatches. I got that information from Robert. There is something on the other side. The operator who signs "K," says, "Ammon wants to know if you want the sixty-eight armed men."
Q. Signed by the operator?
A. Signed by the operator who signs himself "K." The answer of "G. S. G.," "Yes; if he is in good faith to defend the company's property." If it is in order, I might give you a little explanation.
Q. Certainly.
A. On Sabbath morning early, I guess, as early as five o'clock--I live on the south side--I got up, and I got my horse and buggy, and I put Robert's mother in with a younger son of mine, and asked them to drive over. I read in the _Chronicle_ that Bob was among the strikers, and I supposed Bob was in the oil regions at the time; I did not know that he was in Allegheny. I sent Mrs. Ammon over with the request to Robert, that if he thought he would be involved in the strike he had better get in the buggy with his mother and come to Birmingham, and stay until the trouble was over, and I gave the little fellow, who was in the buggy some money to pay his fare in the street car. She informed me that Bob would willingly have complied with my request, but that he could not leave. There was a very great many tramps there, and he and the strikers had to get arms to keep these men away from robbing the cars, and for this reason he could not follow my advice, and go to Birmingham.
By Mr. Means:
Q. I would like to know this before you go any further. Are those telegrams that Robert Ammon received from the railroad officials during the time that he had charge of the road?
A. Yes, sir; this is the commencement of them. He had not charge on Sunday. He took charge of it on Monday. The next telegram is directed to Bob. It says:
"Ammon, a large crowd of men going down the Brighton road, where coaches and cars are on the main track, east of Manchester. Can you protect them?
"G. S. G."
Q. Who is "G. S. G."?
A. Assistant superintendent Griscom. Here is one directed to the initials "W. F. R." That means William F. Ross. He was also official of the railroad.
Q. Dispatcher, wasn't he?
A. Yes; I think so.
"Tell Ammon, if the freight cannot be moved, we would like to move the engines any way. Tell him to help the C. & P., too. [That means Cleveland and Pittsburgh.]
"G. S. G."
Q. Were these sent by wire--by telegraph?
A. Yes; he got them.
Q. By telegraph?
A. Yes, sir. Here is an original that is in Bob's handwriting.
"J. D. L.: [That means, J. D. Layng.]
"I have just sent Ed. Compbell and Paisley to Mayor Phillips for twenty-five police to watch cars, as our men are completely prostrated and wish to obtain some rest. They will watch with police. Can you make some arrangement to get victuals for these men on watch?
"AMMON."
They got a little provisions--that came a little previous, that ought to come in afterwards. Here is another addressed to J. D. L.:
"Can you arrange to send me to-day some hundreds of cartridges? Answer me, as I expect to have use for them.
"AMMON."
Here is another one:
"AMMON:
"Have instructed Ross and Parkin to arrange for provisions. See them.
"J. D. L."
That means J. D. Layng.
Q. Who is "J. D. Layng?"
A. "J. D. Layng;" he is general superintendent.
"AMMON: