Part 10

Prior to that time the various counties and organizations of Great Britain appointed committees which investigated these matters to decide whether they should pass a law to collect statistics and decide whether they should adopt a law including all of these trades or only a portion of them. They decided, in view of the uncertain character of the legislative elements in England, that they would apply it to a limited portion only of the trades, and so they passed the Chamberlain Act of 1896. But they soon saw not only the benefits that came to all of England from the application of the principle, but they saw that in order to satisfy the other workmen who demanded the same thing, that they must apply it to all of the trades, and so finally they passed the Asquith Act of 1906, which is now in operation, and applies practically to all of the trades in Great Britain. They were not so wedded to this unfortunate philosophy of ours which was the cause of our constitution, and I suppose which led America first to separate itself from England and which has dominated American life ever since--this philosophy of independence, this philosophy of individualism. If we cannot see the benefits that come to us from following the European systems, we will have to work one out ourselves. But in my judgment and in the judgment of a great many others more competent to speak authoritatively upon the subject than I am, it would seem as though it was the height of folly for us to ignore the example of Germany and twenty-two Continental Governments which have followed the lead of Germany.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: I would like to hear some of the employers discuss this question. Would the employers feel that they were treated fairly if we singled out a few of the more hazardous industries and did not cover all industries in the same way, in proportion to the number of accidents?

JOHN MITCHELL (New York): I think we must approach this subject as a practical proposition. I want to make this observation: If these bills include domestic and agricultural labor, we are not going to pass the bill. If we are going to work out a practical proposition with the hope of passing our bills, it seems to me we must exclude agricultural laborers and those employed in domestic service. I do not believe the farmers will favor this legislation if it affects them, and I think that the number of accidents occurring on farms is not sufficient to make their inclusion necessary for the success of the bill.

My judgment is that we should start with men working in dangerous employments, and then perhaps with a few years' experience under a bill of that kind, we may decide to include the agricultural industry. The industries which need it most are the ones in which there are the greatest number of accidents.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: What is the harm of reporting the bill complete to the Legislature, and then when it gets in there as a practical proposition, let them pass it, and if they can not, let them cut out such industries as they have to?

MR. MITCHELL: The difficulty is, if the farmers are apparently justified, the men who represent the agricultural districts will vote against it, and the legislator who represents a manufacturing district and who personally might not feel hostile to the legislation, will vote against it, because he does not want to put the burden on the farmers.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: Supposing some fellow offers an amendment striking out these industries which you would leave out in the first place, can they not pass the bill just the same?

MR. MITCHELL: Yes, but I am getting at the best way to approach it.

MR. HARPER (Illinois): The experience in Illinois on Commission bills has been that it is vastly better to have no opposition at all, and to eliminate all possibility of amendment if it is possible. In other words, if the Commission submits a bill to the Illinois Legislature, they are inclined to take it as it stands, especially if both sides interested in the matter are on the Commission, because they say, "Well, this matter has been agreed to and we have no special interest in it. If it is all right we will pass it." Hence, if we put something in that requires amendment, it is liable to stir up discord and dissension; and my personal opinion would be that it would be wise to avoid that if possible.

On the subject of classification I think it would be wise to make a classification based upon the hazardous trades; not the non-competitive trades, but the hazardous trades, and make it inclusive and as broad as possible. Include in the hazardous trades the non-competitive trades, as they have done in New York, but do not start with any one especially, because our courts here have gone further on class legislation than anything else, and I think it would be dangerous for us here to include merely non-competitive trades and call them hazardous or extra-hazardous. In my judgment it would be much better to call them extra-hazardous and include in that list the non-competitive industries.

EDWIN R. WRIGHT (Illinois): I wanted to suggest that it would of course be desirable to take in every occupation, but if we take in the farm labor and servants of Illinois, we cannot possibly secure the passage of this bill. If we burden our bill with too many classifications and too many occupations, the moment we get to Springfield, interested parties, the farmers to start with, would ask to have the farm labor stricken out, and when you once start the snowball rolling down the hill, you would strike the meat out of the bill and lose the confidence of the Legislature, and the moment you do that you lose the bill as a whole. It would not make any difference if nine-tenths of the bill were correct, you would have overshot the mark one-tenth and you would lose the entire bill because they would cut it all to pieces.

We have a great many dangerous occupations in this State. A great many men are killed or seriously injured on railroads every day. Five men are either killed or injured in mines of Illinois every day, and the proportion keeps right up through the trades, so that it is pretty hard to say where the danger starts or stops, but must classify the different trades in this State if we hope to get anything at all.

In comparing conditions here with conditions in foreign countries, you will have to take this question into consideration: In foreign countries, as I understand the situation, they raise the workers there, and if we raised the workers in this State we would soon arrive at the conclusion they have arrived at in England and Germany. Here we import the workmen ready-made and grown-up. We do not grow them in this country, and most of the men who are killed are foreign born, or a large percentage of them. If we fail in securing the compensation law, and it has got to take its regular course, we can get the same results through a different channel. Stop bringing in the men who are grown up, and raise them here, and you won't have the workers to kill, but you will have to conserve the workers in this State and in this nation. Out of 220 firms reporting in Illinois, there are over 200 accidents a month.

MR. INGALLS (Wisconsin): The idea in this plan is to include the railroads and public service transportation company employes as a whole. Now, is it not wise to consider for a moment the distinction between those two classes of occupation? All the gentlemen here will agree perhaps that so far as railways are concerned, and public service corporations of that character, there isn't any question but what the Legislature or Congress can pass a compulsory compensation law. You do not have to classify either at all; any transportation company which gets its right to exist and to operate from the Legislature or Congress can be controlled by the Legislature or Congress with reference to compensation for its injured employes. That industry can positively be handled in that way.

Congress has introduced and passed a resolution for the appointment of a Commission, which will consider that very subject. Those measures are to be made uniform; the State could readily agree upon a plan along that line, and it seems to me that with the subject handled with that idea in view you can pass, under our constitution, a compulsory compensation law for all railway employes. And those engaged in interstate commerce could be handled by Congress and thus make a uniform system.

As to what occupations should be considered, none of us has considered in Wisconsin, so far as our committee is concerned, that we necessarily ought to include farm laborers or domestic servants. Of course our plan here is different and the discussion seems to relate to what classification we shall have under an absolute system, which is quite a different question from that in Wisconsin. I can readily see how the farmers and employers of domestic servants would be inclined to oppose a measure as strong and radical as to include all such employes. I agree with the other speakers that in presenting that matter to the Legislature you ought to present it as you think it will be sustained by the Legislature rather than to ask for things that you know yourselves you probably would not be able to get. In fact, I think it might be well to keep in mind, in discussing the occupations, what you can do positively and what there is a great deal of doubt about being able to do, on the theory of an absolute compulsory system.

MR. RANNEY: When the International Harvester Company organized their industrial insurance plan they omitted all employes except those working in their mines, in their plant, and on their railroads. We have some 2500 men in our sales department and experts working out on farms who are not included in that plan, because we felt that going beyond the industries was rather a dangerous proposition. Hence, we included about 35,000 employes and excluded about 2500.

MR. BLAINE (Wisconsin): I think that if there is any justification for this sort of legislation it is found in the fact that the industry or trade should bear the burden and not the workmen.

I have contended also from the beginning that farm laborers and domestic servants should not be included. Farmers as they conduct their occupation in this country to-day do not have any control whatever over the price or distribution of their products, and hence they have no opportunity whatever to transfer the cost of industrial accidents to the consumer. They are not organized. If they were organized into a vast Society of Equity in every State of the Union I doubt not but what they could control and dictate who should pay the cost of this new burden, if it is going to be an additional burden.

The other industries are organized. They cover vast areas of territory, and they know how to transfer the cost of production. The hazard, too, is greater in our industries than in our farming communities. I think, however, that under the Wisconsin plan we have taken care of the farmer, and I apprehend no danger whatever from that source, because he need not come under the plan unless he wants to. He will be independent of it.

REUBEN MCKITRICK (Wisconsin): In an article written by Professor Farnam, statistics are given as to the comparative number of accidents in farming and agricultural pursuits and in the industries, and while I cannot state the figures in absolute terms at this moment, the percentage given is higher for laborers upon the farms than upon the railroads, for instance.

That statement is borne out also in the accident rates for farm laborers as compared with the rates for men in general manufacturing industries throughout the State. The accident rates are higher for the farm laborers, and so if you are going to work on a basis of establishing a classification on account of the hazardous employment, it seems to me the farmer would have to be included.

(In closing the discussion on Question 1, the following resolution was offered by Doctor Allport, but not voted upon, the unanimous consent to its adoption, required under the By-Laws, not being granted:

"_Resolved_, That it is the sense of this Conference, that State Compensation Laws should be framed to cover all hazardous manufacturing industries, and that any manufacturing industry in which accidents occur shall be declared classified as hazardous. That this classification shall not include farm or domestic labor."

Upon John Mitchell's motion, Commissioner Charles P. Neill, Mr. H. V. Mercer, Dr. John B. Andrews, Mr. M. M. Dawson, Dr. Lee K. Frankel and Dr. William H. Tolman were authorized to represent the Conference at the International Congress of Social Insurance to be held in September, at The Hague, and to extend on behalf of the association an invitation to the International Congress to meet in the United States in 1912.)

CHAIRMAN MERCER: The second question is: Do you want the liability in whatever industries you cover to be an absolute liability; or do you want to make a law that will permit a contract to be made by the employer and employe?

If nobody wants to be heard on that we will pass to the next question, because that is largely a constitutional question of what you _can_ do, and you all want to accomplish the same results, as far as you can.

The third question is: Whether, in your judgment, we should have a double or a single liability, if we could get what we want. Do you want to repeal the common law and statutory remedies or do you want to add the compensation act and leave the others as they stand?

JOHN FLORA (Illinois): As a member of the Chicago Federation of Labor, and knowing the views of that organization, I want to say that it is the unanimous desire of that portion of the workmen of the State of Illinois that we first have in the State of Illinois a law repealing the common law defenses of the assumption of risks, contributory negligence and the fellow-servant act. We hold, as a body of workmen, that no compensation law, I do not care how good you make it, will be worth the paper it is written on unless those defenses of the employer are taken away from him. Then we do not care whether it is elective or compulsory. If you take away the defenses of the employer along those lines, you can make an elective law, and he is compelled to accept it in order to escape the results of the statutory law.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: Are you willing to repeal all the common law, not only the defenses, but the right to recover if the compensation plan covers the whole field?

MR. FLORA: I am not at liberty to state that at the present time. I am careful in making my remarks, because I would first want to consult my constituents on any questions of that kind. I do know this, however, that the working people of Chicago do not want to give up the right of going under the law as it stands to-day and as they have it in England. We want the right, if we do not like the compensation, to go to court. As a matter of fact, I think it is rather a foolish idea that is entertained. If we can get a compensation law in this State as good, for instance, as the one that Wisconsin recommends, personally, I am going to write in my dying request that my wife shall not be fool enough to go to common law, but to take the compensation, because, I think, she will come out better in the end.

I am gathering statistics in Cook County as to the accidents that have resulted in death, and I find in every case where they have gone to court they have received a great deal less than if they had settled with their employers. The largest amounts that have been recovered, after taking out the costs of a court procedure, have been less than what they would have received if they had settled with their employers in 150 cases that I have so far investigated. Therefore, I think, the idea that the working people have--that they want access to the courts under the law--is more of a bugaboo than anything else, and that after a good compensation law is passed we will have a great deal of trouble in our organization in trying to teach the people to take the compensation and stay out of the courts.

CHAIRMAN MERCER: Is it not true that the laboring men think now that they ought to have both systems left open to them, because they are afraid they are being handed a "gold brick" by the compensation plan, if their right to recovery under the common law is taken away from them?

MR. FLORA: Yes; if you have had many dealings with working people you will know that they are always afraid of a "gold brick."

DR. MCCARTHY (Wisconsin): Do you not believe that after a discussion with the working people they will realize the situation and understand it better? I know in talking with the labor representatives up in Wisconsin for the last two or three years before the Legislature, that they are gradually beginning to understand what a compensation act is. I think the sentiment is changing among our labor people in Wisconsin, and I believe this winter they are going to accept the compensation act without asking for their common law rights.

JOHN MITCHELL: I do not believe there should be any hesitancy in answering that question. The fact of the matter is that the working people want the right to sue in order to make the employers careful. We all know, of course, that under any compensation that is proposed here they are simply averaging up the compensation. That is to say, a man who is probably entitled to anything at all under any law we now have, gets something; and the man who is entitled to a great deal does not get so much.

DR. MCCARTHY: Do you think it will make the employer more careful?

MR. MITCHELL: Of course I do. I believe that if it cost an employer $20,000 to kill a man he would be careful. If it is expensive for an employer to kill men, he will protect them, but the great difficulty in this country is that it is not expensive to kill men. It is the judgment, I think, of nearly every one who has investigated this matter, that human life is entirely too cheap; it is not expensive enough for the employers who injure their workmen.

DR. MCCARTHY: The employers only pay one rate, any way. It falls on the insurance companies. Why should the employers be more careful?

MR. MITCHELL: Because their insurance rates are fixed by the number of accidents or the number of recoveries. I dare say in England the number of accidents is not as high as it is here. In fact, a representative of an English insurance company told me the other day that the British Government pays 30 cents per capita for mine inspection, and their total expenditure amounts to $6,000,000 annually. I dare say that while our population is double the population of Great Britain, that we do not pay in the whole United States $2,000,000 dollars a year in either factory or mining inspection, where as a little nation of 40,000,000 people is spending $6,000,000 annually. That is one reason, I think, why the accident rate is so much lower in England than it is in the United States.

MR. PARKS (Massachusetts): I have heard a great deal about this double liability plan where the workman, failing to win his suit at common law, would be entitled to compensation under the compensation act. I believe in Mr. Mitchell's idea in regard to that, and I believe that is the idea of the majority of the workmen. The cry in Massachusetts is that they want something different from the present employers' liability act. I am not so enthusiastic a laboring man as to think that we are going to get the employers' liability act so amended that we will take all of that grievance away from the act. In fact, if we got all of the defenses taken away from the employer there would be no need of a compensation act.

We have had that bill before the Massachusetts Legislature for a number of years, and we have not heard any great talk about workmen demanding this or that right under the employers' liability act. They have been asking for something to take the place of the employers' liability act. They want a workman's compensation act. I do not want to see this thing come up from the workmen themselves, because I think it is going to stop this workmen's compensation movement. If they continually rise and say that the workmen demand this and demand that it will mean that the workmen will get nothing. I have had considerable experience in the Massachusetts Legislature in agitating labor legislation, and, if I do say it, I think Massachusetts in recent years has put more remedial labor legislation on the statute books than probably any other State in the Union, with the possible exception of New York. I give way to New York, because we like to follow New York, but I cannot say that of the other States of the nation. Personally, I would like to see the workmen get all they possibly can get, but we cannot impose too many restrictions on the employers, and if we recommend in the different States the taking away of practically all the defenses of the employer under the employers' liability act, and at the same time recommend the workmen's compensation act, the whole thing will fall through and we will get nothing. I believe we ought to go easy and get something that we can put through.

I am a believer in fixing up everything before you put the bill into the Legislature, and have some kind of an understanding between the contending parties, so that when your hearing comes up both sides are pretty nearly agreed on the same plan. Take away all opposition before you have your hearing, because the minute you start opposition you begin the death of the bill. It is a slow illness, but it means death. If we can bring about something that will not be too radical, that will not be too harsh on the employers, we will get something for the workmen.

I believe, as Mr. Mitchell said, that the workman ought to have his right under the common law, but failing in that he should not be allowed to go to the compensation act. I do not believe in that; it is a nice thing, and I would like to see the workmen have it, but it is not fair to the other side.

MR. BLAINE (Wisconsin): On this question of double liability I would suggest that the farmer under the Wisconsin plan will study this law and will learn the benefits of it, and either through mutual insurance companies, as they have mutual fire insurance companies to-day, or something of that sort, he will, no doubt, come under the law and be glad to do so, because it will be a positive benefit to him. The double liability is somewhat debatable. Under our plan we take away certain defenses. If we take away those defenses from the employer, and leave the employe the right to sue at common law, and also the right to compensation under the act in the event of failure to win his suit, I think we are doing something unfair toward the employer and something that the employe does not want. I do not believe that in Wisconsin the Federation of Labor would demand that sort of a measure. In fact, I am led to believe that they are now prepared to meet the committee upon a very reasonable ground as to the double compensation, and I do believe that while our bill provides that the right of election shall take place at the time of employment, that we will be able to meet the committee on the fair proposition that the right of election shall take place at the time of the accident, but that that right shall apply to accidents happening by reason of the negligence of the employer or through his failure to supply the proper safety appliances for his machines.