Part 31

Mr. BOWKER: If I remember correctly the London _Bookseller_ is giving the exact size and measurement now.

Mr. HARRIS: Many literary and critical journals give the size of all books recorded in inches.

Mr. BOWKER: The Publishing Board is extremely interested in getting the feeling of those here on the question. I want to suggest that when it comes to the rising vote or show of hands, we take a somewhat complicated vote: those who are in favor of the present A. L. A. letter; those in favor of returning to the fold (I mean not in the usual sense); those in favor of exact measurement in centimeters; those in favor of a combination of letter symbol and centimeter; and those in favor of the fold symbol and centimeter. The board wants all the information it can get.

CHAIRMAN: I will ask Mr. Bowker to state the first proposition.

Mr. BOWKER: Those in favor of the letter symbol, the present A. L. A. method, please rise. Twenty-four rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Those in favor of returning to the fold symbol, the 8vo, 12mo and 4to please rise. Ten rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Those who prefer a designation of actual measurement, please rise--with the understanding that those voting for this will then vote their preference as to either inches or centimeters. Seventeen rose.

CHAIRMAN: Your next proposition, Mr. Bowker.

Mr. BOWKER: Those who would prefer centimeters if exact measurement should be adopted, please rise. Thirty-two rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Now those who would prefer inches if an exact measurement were adopted. Three rose.

CHAIRMAN: As many as are in favor of the exact measurement coupled with the A. L. A. symbol, in case there is to be a combination--letter and exact size--please rise. Thirty-two rose.

CHAIRMAN: Now those who would prefer the combination of exact size with figure symbol. Sixteen rose.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: We might have another vote on whether the size should mean letterpress or book.

CHAIRMAN: Before this is done I want to call attention to the effect of binding after cataloging. If this scheme is going to take in foreign books, and you are going to get cards promptly, a large share of the books will be cataloged before they are bound. If a good binder does his work conscientiously and as it should be done, if you give the page you will have a more satisfactory measurement.

Mr. HANSON: I have looked into this question recently, and I find, where libraries do measure in centimeters they measure the paper. If the book is bound they measure the outside cover, for the reason that when the unbound book is trimmed down for binding what is lost is regained in the binding. I have found no instance yet where the practice that is advocated by yourself, the measurement of the letterpress, is followed in actual work.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: Let all those who want an exact measurement of the letterpress please rise. Two rose.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: Now those who want size to mean the outside of the book. Fifty-five rose.

Mr. BOWKER: I think it might clarify things if we take the vote of those who favor the use of the symbol alone as against those who favor the use of the symbol and exact measurement in centimeters.

CHAIRMAN: Those who favor the use of the symbol alone as against the combination of symbol with measurement please rise. Twenty-three rose.

Mr. BOWKER: Those who favor combination of symbol with exact measurement, please rise. Fifteen rose.

Mr. BOWKER: If there is no other business I wish to move the very cordial appreciation of the Catalog Section of the admirable report which has been presented in such detail by the advisory committee of the Publishing Board. _Voted._

Mr. BOWKER: Mr. Hanson, as chairman of the committee, I have great pleasure in conveying to you and to your associates this appreciation, which I know is most thorough on the part of all here.

I would also like to move a vote of thanks to the chairman for his admirable presiding during the session. _Voted._

L. P. LANE: I move that the program committee be requested to assign a time before the end of the conference when there may be a continued meeting of this section; and if such a time be found, that when we adjourn we adjourn to that time. _Voted._

CHAIRMAN: Let me announce again that at the close of this session the secretary, Miss Van Valkenburgh, will be ready to begin the registry of persons who express themselves as willing to become members of this section.

Mr. ANDREWS: I would call attention to the fact that under the by-laws, if the section wants to, it can adopt rules restricting membership; if it doesn't adopt rules any member of the Association may be a member of this section. It is a question whether we wish to confine this section to catalogers.

CHAIRMAN: It is an important point or might easily become an important point. For the ordinary run of affairs it would be a matter of no consequence, but it may be that this section will sometime wish to promulgate some proposition and a little logrolling might vote it down. What does the section wish to do in this matter?

Mr. WINDSOR: I think we can safely leave it open to all who are interested in the subject of cataloging. I don't see that there is anything gained by leaving out anybody who is interested in the work.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: I move that a vote on this question be postponed. _Voted._

Mr. HANSON: In the points that were outlined last year for discussion at this meeting there were a great many details; we have not reached a fifth of them. May I ask catalogers to get copies of the rules recommended by the Committee on Rules and look them over and communicate with any one of the members of the committee--Mr. Hopkins, Miss Kroeger, Miss Brown or myself. It would be of the greatest assistance to us.

[Miss Kroeger objected to giving out copies of the rules, because they were incomplete.]

CHAIRMAN: I think we have no right to make a general distribution yet, to do so would perhaps exceed the province of the committee; but we might lend copies to those who want to look them over.

I will now call for the report of the _Committee on Nominations_.

[The committee reported the names of Mr. Hanson, of the Library of Congress, for chairman, and Miss Mary E. Hawley, Chicago Public Library, for secretary.]

Mr. HANSON: I am the chairman of the advisory committee and we have a great deal of hard work before us. I would ask the section to accept my resignation. I really do not feel I can give the time necessary to make this section a success at the next meeting.

CHAIRMAN: There are no rules governing us, Mr. Hanson, but I beg that you do not insist on this, or if you feel you must resign that you do so between now and the next session.

The names submitted were unanimously elected, and adjournment was taken subject to call of chair.

_SECOND SESSION._

The second session of the Catalog Section was called to order on Wednesday, July 10, ANDERSON H. HOPKINS presiding.

CHAIRMAN: The matters that were of first importance to be brought before the section were discussed yesterday. At the same time there are other things that I am sure would be interesting; and perhaps you would prefer to bring up your own topics, and each present something you would like to talk about.

Miss WAGNER: Is the Y. M. C. A. question proper for discussion?

CHAIRMAN: I believe that question was received; please read it, Mr. Hanson.

Mr. HANSON (reading): Young Men's Christian Associations, mercantile library associations and the like are to be entered under place. That is 1 i 21 of the rules suggested.

Miss WAGNER: It is our practice to put the Y. M. C. A. under Y. M. C. A.; Y. M. C. A., Boston; Y. M. C. A., New York; instead of putting it under place. There is a separate association which has a distinctive being and the local associations are branches. It seems this is much more logical, and where the public would expect to find reports of the Y. M. C. A.

Mr. HANSON: I wish to state in support of Miss Wagner's contention that Mr. Cutter in his new edition, which is now in manuscript, was rather in favor of changing his rule, which reads as this one does. He has always advised entering under the place; but he was now inclined to enter under Young Men's Christian Association, not only for the general association of the United States, but for the associations of the various states. A majority of the committee, however, seemed inclined to enter the local Y. M. C. A. under the place, on the ground that 99 per cent. would look for Chicago Y. M. C. A. under Chicago, Philadelphia Y. M. C. A. under Philadelphia, rather than under Y. M. C. A.; and that the same was true of the mercantile library associations.

Miss CRAWFORD: Was any argument brought forth to substantiate that statement that nine-tenths of the people would look under the local name?

Mr. HANSON: No contention, except that it seemed to be the general experience.

Miss CRAWFORD: It seems to me if the committee would correspond with public libraries there might be some change of opinion on the matter.

Miss WAGNER: I find that Chicago enters Y. M. C. A. under Y. M. C. A., as the St. Louis Public Library does.

Miss CRAWFORD: The logical thing has always seemed the fair thing in this matter--to ask one's self the question, Has the organization a national existence? And if so, to enter it under the generic name. The Y. M. C. A. has a national existence, which is more important as a governing body than any one of the local associations. And the same is true of other organizations. If they have no national organization, then I enter them under the local name; but if there is a national association, then I enter under the generic name.

Miss AMBROSE: Would you follow the same reasoning for entries under Methodist Episcopal church, or would you put them under the place? It seems to me the same reasoning would apply.

Miss CRAWFORD: I shouldn't wish this logical process to supersede the better rule of entering under the best known form. And I think in the case Miss Ambrose mentions the best known form would be the locality.

Mr. HANSON: Miss Wagner's question has launched us into the center of the most difficult problem of all--that is, corporate entry, entry of societies and institutions. There is an underlying principle which governs our distinctions, I believe. There is a distinction to be made between societies, and to some extent institutions; societies, including royal academies, which are societies, to be entered under the first word not an article; on the other hand, institutions, galleries, museums, libraries, etc., which generally have buildings and are affiliated closely with the place, to be entered under place, unless they have other distinctive names--that is to say, names from persons or geographical locations. That principle would to some extent affect the Young Men's Christian Associations and mercantile libraries.

Miss CRAWFORD: Would that override the other rule of entering under the best known form? Would the institution entry override the principle of entering under best known form?

Mr. HANSON: That rule we have not formulated. We have not considered as broad a rule as that--entry under best known form. We have tried to lay down some rule that should govern entry under place and entry under name; and what we are really trying to get at is best known form.

Miss CRAWFORD: I appreciate that, and there ought to be some ground on which to make exceptions. I think your distinction between institutions and societies is a good one. Is not the Y. M. C. A. a good case to make an exception?

Mr. HANSON: Yes, that is the 21st exception, is it not, under the rule? The general rule is, "Enter societies under the first word not an article or serial number, of its corporate name." Then there are 22 exceptions, and we began with the 21st.

L. P. LANE: I don't know whether the practice of the Boston Public Library is of interest, but personally I incline to the views Miss Crawford has expressed. The Boston Public Library strives to use the corporate name where there is a corporate name, carrying that practice, I think, to an extreme degree, so that they enter Chamber of Commerce under Chamber of Commerce, so and so. I understand under this rule Chamber of Commerce would be entered under the name of the place.

Mr. HANSON: Yes. We propose to enter all boards of trade, all chambers of commerce under the name of the city or state.

Miss KROEGER: That comes under rule 1 i 9: If a body's name begins with such words as "board," "corporation," "trustees," enter that part of the name by which they are usually known.

Mr. HANSON: This will be very helpful to the committee, because it shows that in the case of exception 21 there is a strong sentiment of entering it under name instead of under place.

Miss CRAWFORD: Would you make that same application to mercantile libraries? It seems to me in that case the place is what people would look for, just as they would for a public library.

Mr. HANSON: Yes, personally I should feel disposed to give in on the Y. M. C. A. question, but not on the mercantile library.

Miss WAGNER: The mercantile library has no general organization. If you enter the local Y. M. C. A. under the city you are forcing the people to look in perhaps 30 or 40 places.

Mr. BISCOE: Is it the purpose of the author arrangement to show what the library has on Y. M. C. A.?

Miss WAGNER: It is the purpose to show what the library owns under the authorship of the Y. M. C. A. And to find that you force the person to look into as many different places as there are Y. M. C. A.'s represented in your catalog. The person who comes to your catalog wanting to know what Y. M. C. A. publications you have has a right to find them in one place.

Mr. HANSON: He could always find it by cross-reference under the general Y. M. C. A. to every local Y. M. C. A. represented in the catalog. The contention at the meeting of the committee was that in a great majority of cases a man is interested in a particular Y. M. C. A. If he comes to study all Y. M. C. A.'s the catalog must make provision to help him.

CHAIRMAN: I am one who maintains the thesis that no one has a right to expect to find everything pertaining to Y. M. C. A. under Y. M. C. A. in the author catalog.

Miss WAGNER: It seems to me in the author catalog you have a right to expect to find what the author has written, therefore you have a right to find what the Y. M. C. A. is responsible for.

Mr. BISCOE: Why isn't it the same thing to expect to find out everything about the Episcopal church under "Episcopal church"? Isn't every branch of the Episcopal church a part of the general Episcopal church?

Miss WAGNER: The answer in our library would be that nobody asks for that information, as they do for the Y. M. C. A.

CHAIRMAN: Are you sure the reason they ask for the Y. M. C. A. in that way is not because you catalog it that way, and they have learned to look for it there?

Miss WAGNER: My answer is that for the last seven years we entered Y. M. C. A. under place. The change was made in agreement with the demand at the issue desk.

CHAIRMAN: That is just the kind of thing we want to find out.

Miss CRAWFORD: Under 1 i 12 what would you advise regarding the Carnegie libraries which in large numbers have assumed the name Carnegie since the endowment of the building? Would you give them all as Carnegie libraries of so-and-so, or would you still preserve the form showing the library was supported by the city in which it was? For example, Pittsburgh Carnegie Library and Atlanta Carnegie Library--introducing the word Carnegie right after the city? Or would you advise putting the word Carnegie for all of these libraries?

Mr. HANSON: I have not had to deal with that question. I should think they would be entered under the name of the city, and then if you want to bring the entire Carnegie record together you can make a second entry.

CHAIRMAN: This raises the question whether or not the designation "Carnegie library" is an official one. If it is not, then it is a name which has come up by common consent, and it seems to me that nothing but time would enable us to determine exactly how it should be treated; the conservative thing would be to use the name of the place.

Miss AMBROSE: I would like to hear an expression of opinion--it is the same principle in three different places, 1 i 4, 1 i 5 and 1 i 16--as to entering professional schools, libraries and observatories separately if they have distinctive names separate from the corporations that they belong to.

Mr. HANSON: I think it would be better to enter the colleges of American universities under the name of the university. It is an easy rule to follow and a rule that has been followed in American libraries. On the other hand we have peculiar cases--the medical schools, for instance, which have distinctive names and are often situated a hundred miles from the mother school. "College libraries and local college societies under the name of the college, but the Bodleian library may be put under Bodleian. Intercollegiate societies and Greek letter fraternities under the name." I think all will agree with that. 1 i 16, "Observatories under the name of the place, except that those having distinctive names are to be entered under that name. Refer for university observatories from the university." I personally think that is unfortunate; I would prefer to see university and observatories under university. For instance, for Washburn observatory I would say, "Wisconsin university, Washburn observatory."

Miss CRAWFORD: Under 1 h 1, "Enter Government bureaus or offices subordinate to a department directly under the country not as sub-heading under departments." Is it proposed to invert the name of the bureau or office so as to bring the distinctive name to the fore or let it read in its natural way?

Mr. HANSON: The practice of inverting has been followed, I think, in the majority of American catalogs. We have not as yet inverted our headings. We are printing them in the order in which they read, as "Bureau of Education"; but that does not mean we may not arrange entries under United States, _Education_.

L. P. LANE: It seems to me it would be most desirable to harmonize the practice of the Superintendent of Documents with the Library of Congress in this matter. In the "Comprehensive catalogue" there is this inversion, and it seems to me it has been very judiciously done. In the present practice of the Boston Public Library, however, it is not done.

Miss AMBROSE: I should like a definition of the word "local" in 1 i 20.

Mr. HANSON: 1 i 20: "Purely local benevolent or moral or similar societies under the place."

Mr. Cutter said that he had more trouble with this rule than with any other. He had, in fact, I believe decided to enter under name, not under place, but it seems during the discussion he changed back to the old rule.

Miss KROEGER: That was in deference to the majority vote. Mr. Cutter's opinion favored entry under name.

Mr. HANSON: His reason seemed to be that those referring to these local societies were the citizens of the place where they were situated and they sought the name of the society. If the people in other states, using other catalogs, were looking for the societies, they would not remember the name. In fact, the only thing that remains in one's memory is the name of the place, and one naturally would look under the place for it.

CHAIRMAN: As I understand Miss Ambrose she raises the question how large a locality might be meant--whether it should go to the limits of a county or a state. I should have supposed it meant a narrower locality and would apply to a city or town--a vicinage.

Mr. JOSEPHSON: Perhaps it might be well to let the word "local" mean here what it means in "local geography"--anything belonging to the state--not taking in towns.

I should like to bring up 1 k: "Enter commentaries accompanied by the full text of the work under the name of the author." And then exceptions only when the text is not to be readily distinguished from the commentary. We have a good many cases where the text is particularly short--a text of from four or five or ten pages--and then comes a commentary of several hundred pages. It seems absurd to catalog a text of five or ten pages accompanied by a commentary of five or six hundred pages under the name of the author of the text.

Miss KROEGER: That is provided for in the rule. "Except when the text is distributed through the commentary in such a manner as not to be readily recognized or is insignificant as compared with the commentary." That is designed to fit just such cases.

Mr. HANSON: There is another rule, on laws, 1 h 3: "Laws on one or more particular subjects, whether digested or merely collected, to be entered under the collector or digester, with added entry under country."

I think that is a departure from the present practice, which has been to enter New York laws on state taxation under New York, State Legislature, and secondly under compiler or collector.

Miss AMBROSE: If you had a compilation of road laws of Illinois, you would put that under the compiler first and secondly under Illinois State Legislature?

Mr. HANSON: Yes.

L. P. LANE: Under 1 h and 1 q I would like to ask whether a proclamation by the king of England would be put under England, or Great Britain, King, or under Edward VII.?

Mr. HANSON: We enter such publications in two places; the official proclamations or edicts under the name of the country with a subdivision for king or sovereign, and then their private publications under their names.

Miss CRAWFORD: 1 j: "Enter a periodical under the first word, not an article or serial number, of its title."

What is the judgment of the committee upon newspapers? Should they always be entered under the first word of their title, or would it be better to enter under the name of the place?

Miss KROEGER: We consulted Mr. Fletcher about the rules, and he suggested this very point, bringing up the question of newspapers. And we have a rough draft of a rule to enter newspapers under the name of the place, putting the name of the place in brackets and not in the title. 1 j also brings up the question as to whether it is to be under the first word of the current title or of the original title.

Miss GRAHAM: 1 i 15: "Exhibitions under the name of the place where they are held."

It would seem to me that in the case of the Pan-American Exposition, that should be first, rather than Buffalo. Also the Columbian Exposition.

Mr. HANSON: I think a majority of the expositions in this country have specific names. In the discussion of the committee I think Mr. Cutter proposed the rule as follows: "Enter under the name of the place in case of expositions, always making a cross-reference from the special name of the exposition, if it has one." In all cases it would be necessary that the cross-reference should be made from the special name by which it is known--as the Cotton States, Pan-American, World's Columbian.

CHAIRMAN: Is there anything more to say on this subject? If not, Miss Graham, you might bring up that question you spoke to me about this morning.

Miss GRAHAM: The matter Mr. Hopkins refers to was regarding the revision of the "A. L. A. catalog" of the 5000 best books. We feel the need in small libraries, and I think the need is felt where libraries are trying to organize, for a revision of that catalog. We all use that in small libraries when making out lists of standard works. There are many of them out of print. If we could have a revision of that catalog on printed cards it seems to me it would be a great help in the work of library extension as well as to smaller libraries which have little cataloging force--where the librarian has to be cataloger.