Part 3
John, seventh earl, the builder of the present Palladian mansion, died in 1762, when the earldom passed to a distant cousin, and the barony of Despencer was called out of abeyance in favour of Sir Francis Dashwood, the son and representative of Mary, sister and _eldest_ co-heir of John, seventh Earl of Westmoreland, and heir to his estates. On his death _s.p._, Sir Thomas Stapleton, sole heir to the Barony of Despencer (as lineal descendant and heir of Catherine, the _younger_ sister and co-heir of the said John, seventh earl), succeeded to the estate; and from him it has lineally descended to Mary, Viscountess Falmouth, and "jure suo" Baroness Despencer, the present representative of the family. At Mereworth Castle itself, where the Viscount and Viscountess Falmouth reside, there is no view of the old building; but it is very possible that some drawing or engraving of it may exist in some of the residences of the Earls of Westmoreland subsequent to the seventh earl, or at the seat of the Dashwoods, or in the British Museum.
I trouble you with this Query, in the hope that, among your numerous readers, some one may be placed in a position to give us information on the subject. In doing so they would greatly oblige
CANTIANUS.
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Minor Queries.
"_I could not love thee, dear, so much._"--Where are the following lines to be found? what is the context?
"I could not love thee, dear, so much, Loved I not honour more."
H.
_Leicester as Ranger of Snowden._--In the reign of Queen Elizabeth, Leicester was made Ranger of Snowden Forest, and using violent means to extort unjust taxes from the people, under cover of this appointment, he was opposed and resisted by eight Welsh gentlemen, under the leadership of Sir Richard Bulkeley, of Baron Hill, in Anglesey. Among these was a Madryn of Madryn, a Hugh ap Richard of Cefnllanfair, a Griffith of Cefn Amlwch, &c. These patriotic gentlemen met with imprisonment in the Tower of London as their only recompense; and there are extant poems by Guttyn, Peris, and other bards, addressed to them on the subject. I should be obliged to any of your correspondents to give me any farther information on this subject, or reference to documents which bear upon it.
ELFFIN AP GWYDDNO.
_Crabb of Telsford._--Any information respecting the settlement of the family of Crabb, or Crabbe, at Telsford, county of Somerset, together with the names of the present representatives of that family, would be most thankfully received through the medium of your valuable pages, or in any other way, by
ONE OF THE NAME.
_Tolling the Bell while the Congregation is leaving Church._--Can you inform me why this is done at Richmond Church; and whether the custom is adopted in any other?[3]
J. H. M.
[Footnote 3: [This custom is observed in many of the London churches.--ED.]]
_O'Brien of Thosmond._--In the _Calendar of Inquisitions post mortem_, there appears one taken on the death of Alicia, wife of Nicholas Thosmound, in the second year of King Henry IV. The estates were in Somersetshire. From the appearance of this name, I suspect it is not an English one; but rather an old form of spelling the name of the province of Tothmound or Thomond (South Munster), Ireland; and that this Nicholas was an O'Brien, who called himself from his family's principality, for it was not uncommon in England formerly to take names from estates. Perhaps some of your correspondents having access to the _Inquisition_ would ascertain more on the subject, and give it to the public. The name of Nicholas O'Brien occurs in the Irish rolls of Chancery about that very period.
A. B.
_Order of St. David of Wales._--In the reign of Queen Elizabeth there was an order of knighthood--the Order of St. David of Wales. When was that Order created? Who was the first knight? Who was the last knight? What prelate was the chaplain to the Order? Why was it dissolved? Why is it not revived again? We have several Welsh peers, noblemen, knights; four bishops, men of science and learning, Welshmen. I hope the good Queen Victoria will revive this ancient order of knighthood, and the Prince of Wales be created the first knight. The emblem of Wales is a red dragon.
Can any of your readers give an account of this ancient order? Some years ago there were several letters in _The Times_, and other papers, respecting it and the Welsh motto. Wales should have its knight as well as Ireland, Scotland, and England.
W.
_Warple-way._--The manor of Richmond, in Surrey, has been the property of the crown for many hundred years, I may say from time {126} immemorial: and in all the old records and plans, the green roads are called "warple-ways." Some of the old plans are marked "w_o_rple way," some "w_a_rple way " Can any of your readers tell me the derivation and meaning of the word, and refer me to an authority?
WM. SMYTHE.
_Purlet._--Nelson, and the subsequent historians of Islington, relate a marvellous story on the authority of _Purlet de Mir. Nat._ x. c. iv.:
"And as to the same heavings, or _tremblements de terre_, it is sayde, y^t in a certaine fielde neare unto y^e parish church of Islingtoun, in like manner, did take place a wondrous commotion in uarious partes, y^e earthe swellinge, and turninge uppe euery side towards y^e midst of y^e sayde fielde; and, by tradycion of this, it is obserued y^t one Richard de Clouesley lay buryed in or neare y^t place, and y^t his bodie being restles, on y^e score of some sinne by him peraduenture committed, did shewe or seeme to signifye y^t religious obseruance should there take place, to quiet his departed spirit; whereupon certaine exorcisers, if wee may so term y^m, did at dede of night, nothing lothe, using divers diuine exercises at torche light, set at rest y^e unrulie spirit of y^e shade Clouesley, and y^e earthe did returne aneare to its pristine shape, neuermore commotion procedeing therefrom to this day, and this I know of a verie certaintie."--Nelson's _Islington_, 4to. 1811, p. 305., or 8vo. 1823, p. 293.
The spelling of this extract seems at least as old as the time of Cloudesley's death (1517), although it would appear to be a translation; and though the exorcism is apparently spoken of as having taken place long before the time of the writer. From these and other circumstances, I am led to suspect that Nelson was the victim of cruel hoax, particularly as I am unable to find any such book as _Purlet de Mir. Nat._ in the British Museum.
Query, Does any such book exist; and if so, where?
FRIDESWIDE.
Islington.
_Liveries, Red and Scarlet._--In a Provincial paper, I noticed a paragraph dating the origin of wearing red coats in fox-hunting from a mandate of Henry II., who it appears made fox-hunting a royal sport, and gave to all distributors of foxes the scarlet uniform of the royal household: this also would involve another question as regards the origin of scarlet being the colour of the royal livery. Can any of your sporting or antiquarian correspondents give me any authority for the former, and any information about the latter?
W. E. W. RUMBOLD.
_Dr. Bragge._--I shall be much obliged to any of your correspondents who will give me information respecting Dr. Bragge, who flourished about the year 1756. Who was he? Where did he get his degree? Who were his chief dupes? Where did he live? He appears, from various inscriptions round an engraved portrait, to have been a great duping dealer in pictures.
E. H.
_Chauncy, or Chancy._--Any reference to works containing biographical notices of Charles Chauncy, or Chancy, M.A., Fellow of Trinity College, Cambridge, circa 1620, will oblige
J. Y.
_Plaster Casts._--RUBY would be thankful for a good receipt for bronzing plaster casts.
"[Greek: Sikera]."--In the prophecy regarding the birth of John the Baptist (Luke i. 15.) the angel says:
[Greek: Kai oinon kai sikera ou mê piêi.]
This is in the authorised version (I quote the original 1611 edit.) rightly rendered:
"And shal drinke neither wine nor strong drinke."
Now, in the _Golden Legend_, fol. cxl. (Wynkyn de Worde's edition, London, 1516) is this account:
"For he shal be grete, and of grete meryte tofore our Lord: he shall not drinke wyne, ne _syder_, ne thynge wherof he myght be dronken."
I need hardly remind your readers that that [Greek: sikera] was often used by the LXX translators for an intoxicating liquor, as distinguished from wine, viz. Levit. x. 9., Numbers vi. 3., &c., and in about nine places; but I do not remember "syder" as _the_ "thynge wherof he myghte be dronken." Can any of your philological friends call to mind a similar version? I do not want to be told the derivation of [Greek: sikera], for that is obvious; nor do I lack information as to the inebriating qualities of "syder," for, alas! an intimate acquaintance with Devonshire has often brought before my notice persons "dronken" with that exhilarating beverage.
RICHARD HOOPER.
St. Stephen's, Westminster.
_Dogs in Monumental Brasses._--Is there any symbolical meaning conveyed in the dogs which are so often introduced at the feet of ladies in brasses, and dogs and lions at the feet of knights? One fact is worthy of notice, that while the omission of the dog is frequent in the brasses of ladies (e.g. in that of Lady Camoys, 1424, at Trotten, Sussex, and Joan, Lady Cobham, 1320, Cobham, Kent, and several others), the lion or dog, as the case may be, of the knight is scarcely ever left out; indeed, I have only been able to find two or three instances. But again, in brasses later than 1460, the dogs and lions are seldom, if ever, found either in the brasses of knights or ladies. Can you afford me any information on these points?
B. H. ALFORD.
Tonbridge, Kent.
{127}
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Minor Queries with Answers.
_Marquis of Granby._--In a late number of _Chamber's Journal_ it is stated that there are eighteen taverns in London bearing the sign of the Marquis of Granby. How did this sign become so popular and which marquis was it whose popularity gained him immortality; and when lived he?
J. M. WHARTON.
[This sign is intended as a compliment to John Manners, commonly called Marquis of Granby, eldest son of John, third Duke of Rutland, who appears to have been a good, bluff-brave soldier--active, generous, careful of his men, and beloved by them. Mr. Peter Cunningham (_Handbook_, p. 398., edit. 1850) informs us, that "Granby spent many an happy hour at the Hercules Pillars public-house, Piccadilly, where Squire Western put his horses up, when in pursuit of Tom Jones." He died, much regretted, on October 19, 1770, without succeeding to the dukedom.
"What conquests now will Britain boast, Or where display her banners? Alas! in GRANBY she has lost True courage and good MANNERS."
His popularity is shown by the frequent occurrence of his portrait as a sign-board for public-houses, even of late years; a fact which at once testifies in favour of his personal qualities, and indicates the low state of our military fame during the latter half of the last century.]
_"Memorials of English Affairs," &c._--Can you inform me who was the author of a folio volume entitled--
"Memorials of the English Affairs; or an Historical Account of what passed from the beginning of the Reign of King Charles I. to King Charles II. his happy 'Restauration;' containing the Public Transactions, Civil and Military, together with the Private Consultations and Secrets of the Cabinet. London: printed for Nathanael Conder, at the Sign of the Peacock in the Poultry, near the Church, MDCLXXXII."
I have never seen any other copy than the one in my possession.
L. R.
[This work is by Sir Bulstrode Whitelocke. The edition of 1682, possessed by our correspondent, was published by Arthur, Earl of Anglesea, who took considerable liberties with the manuscript. The best edition, containing the passages cancelled by the Earl, is that of 1732, fol. "This work," says Bishop Warburton, "that has been so much cried up, is a meagre diary, wrote by a poor-spirited, self-interested, and self-conceited lawyer of eminence, but full of facts." At p. 378. (edit. 1682) occurs the following entry:--"From the council of state, Cromwell and his son Ireton went home with Whitelocke to supper, where they were very cheerful, and seemed extremely well-pleased; they discoursed together till twelve o'clock at night, and told many wonderful observations of God's providence in the affairs of the war, and in the business of the army's coming to London, and seizing the members of the house, in all which were miraculous passages." To this sentence in the copy now before us, some sturdy royalist has added the following MS. note:--"Whitelocke reports this of himself, as being well pleased with it; and the success of their villany they accounted God's providence!"]
_Standing when the Lord's Prayer is read._--On Sunday, January 8, the second lesson for morning service is the sixth chapter of St. Matthew, in which occurs the Lord's Prayer. When the officiating clergyman began to read the ninth verse, in which the prayer commences, the congregation at Bristol Cathedral rose, and remained _standing_ till its conclusion. Is this custom observed in other places? and (if there is to be a change of position) why do the congregation _stand_, and not _kneel_, the usual posture of prayer in the Church of England?
CERVUS.
[The custom, we believe, is observed in the majority of churches. The reasons for standing rather than kneeling seems to be, that when the Lord's Prayer comes in the course of the lessons it is only read historically, as a part of a narrative, which indicates that the whole sacred narrative should be treated, as it was anciently, with the like reverence. The rubric says nothing about sitting; standing and kneeling being the only postures expressly recognised. In the curious engraving of the interior of a church, prefixed to Bishop Sparrow's _Rationale upon the Book of Common Prayer_, 1661, there is not a seat of any kind to be seen, pews not having become at this time a general appendage to churches; probably a few chairs or benches were required for the aged or infirm.. The only intimation of the sitting posture in our present Common Prayer-Book occurs in the rubric, enjoining the people to stand when the Gospel is read, which Wheatly tells us was first inserted in the Scotch Common Prayer-Book. See "N. & Q.," Vol. ii., pp. 246. 347.]
_Hypocrisy, &c._--Can you inform me with whom originated the following saying: "Hypocrisy is the homage which vice renders to virtue"?
A. C. W.
[The saying originated with the Duke de la Rochefoucault, and occurs in his _Moral Maxims_, No. 233.]
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Replies.
"CONSILIUM NOVEM DELECTORUM CARDINALIUM," ETC.
(Vol. viii., p. 54.)
The Note of your correspondent NOVUS upon this _Consilium_ ought to have been answered before; but as none of your contributors who can speak as "having authority" have undertaken to do so, I beg to offer to your readers the following statements and extracts, collected when my surprise at the assertions of NOVUS was quite fresh. {128}
The first point on which NOVUS requires correction is, the name of the pontiff to whom the _Consilium_ purports to be addressed. NOVUS says Julius III., but the date of this document is unquestionably not later than the beginning of 1538, for Sleidan tells us that editions of it were printed at Rome, at Cologne, at Strasburg, and at another place, in the course of the year 1538; and in the title it is distinctly stated to have been presented to Paul III., who was pope in that year, whilst Julius III. was not elected till 1550.
When NOVUS says that this _Consilium_ "has just been once more quoted, for the fiftieth time, perhaps, within the present generation, as a genuine document, and as proceeding from adherents of the Church of Rome," he falls short of the fact. For _every writer_ of the least mark, or likelihood, whose subject has led him that way, has quoted it: thus, _e.g._, Ranke, who in his great work on _The Popes and the Papacy_, book ii. § 2., refers to it as indicative of no dishonourable design on the part of the supreme pontiff.
Amongst the writers of the time when the _Consilium_ is said to have been drawn up, who regarded it as genuine, we may mention Luther, who, soon after it found its way into Germany, published a translation, with one of his biting caricatures prefixed; and Sturm, who prefaced his translation with a letter to the cardinals to whom it was ascribed, for which reason alone his edition was put in the "Index," no other edition being similarly honoured; and this sufficiently refutes a statement of Schelhorn, in his letter to Cardinal Quirinus, upon which much reliance has been placed by those whom NOVUS would regard as sharers of his opinion.
The appearance of the editions at Cologne and Strasburg in 1538, testifies to the speed with which the _Consilium_ reached Germany. Sleidan asserts that, when it was published there, some fancied it to be fictitious, and intended to ridicule both the Pope and the Reformation; but others, that it was a device of the Pope to gain credit for not being hostile to the correction of certain confessed abuses. In the next year, on July 16th, Aleander wrote to Cochlæus thus:
"Multa haberem scribere de Republica, sed mali custodes estis rerum arcanarum,--Consiliis Cardinalium promulgatis, cum invectiva Sturmii, manibus hominum teritur, antequam vel auctoribus edita, vel executioni fuerit demandata."
Which passage might be regarded as decisive of the question of genuineness, since Aleander was one of the _Cardinales delecti_ whose names are appended to the _Consilium_.
That Le Plat should insert a copy in his _Monument. ad Hist. Concil. Trident. potius illustr. spect._, may, perhaps, be considered an unsatisfactory argument; and the same will certainly be thought of the use of it by Sarpi. But Pallavicini is a witness not obnoxious to objections which apply to them, and he says:
"It happened by Divine Providence, that this _Consilium_ was published, since it showed what were in fact the deepest wounds in the discipline of the Church, ascertained with great diligence, and exposed with the utmost freedom by men of incomparable zeal and knowledge. And these were neither falsity of dogmas, nor corruption of the Scriptures, nor wickedness of laws, nor politic craft beneath the garb of humility, nor impure vices, as the Lutherans asserted; but too great indulgence towards violations and abrogations of laws, which Luther far more licentiously abrogated," &c.--Vide book IV. ch. v., at the end.
But Ranke's note upon a casual reference to this document in book I. ch. ii. § 2. of his _History of the Papacy_, completely disposes of the question of its genuineness, and therefore of its "seriousness" (to use one of NOVUS' phrases), when taken in conjunction with what has gone before.
"_Consilium, &c._; printed more than once even at the time, and important as pointing out the evil, so far as it lay in the administration of discipline, precisely and without reserve. Long after it had been printed, _the MS. remained incorporated with the MSS. of the Curia_."
Were it not that the assertion of NOVUS is so roundly made, and in a form that is sure to adhere in the memories of readers sufficiently interested in the subject to notice his communication, it would have been enough to quote from one of the works he refers to, as containing copies of the _Consilium_, to expose _the origin of his error_; and this, now that I have shown it to be an error, I crave your permission to do. This, then, is what Brown says in his _Appendix ad Fascicul. Rer. Expetend. et Fugiend._ (commonly cited as _Fascicul. vol. ii._), ed. 1690, pp. 230, 231.:
"Sæpius excusum est Consilium sequens, cum alibi, tum hic Londini, A.D. 1609, ex bibliothecâ Wilh. Crashavii, qui in Epistolâ dedicatoriâ ad Rev^{mum} D. Tobiam Matthæum Archiep. Eboracen. citat quædam è Commentariis Espencæi in Tit. cap. i. ad hoc Consilium ab omni fraudis et fictionis suspicione liberandum; _quasi præsensisset Crashavius fore aliquando ut pro re, omnino ficta et falsa censeretur_; cum id in novissimis Conciliorum editionibus desiderari, et astute suppressum esse viderat, ut est in admonitione suâ ad Lectorem. Sed longe aliter res habebit; _suo enim de sorex prodidit indicio; et Cochlæus ipse (qui nesciit pro nobis mentiri, quantumvis in causâ suâ parum probus aliquando), hujusce Consilii fidem ab omni labe improbitatis vindicavit et asseruit_ in historiâ suâ de Actis et Scriptis Lutheri, ad annum 1539, fol. 312. &c. editionis Colonien. 1568. editum est præterea, hoc idem Consilium, Parisiis, publicâ authoritate, una cum Guliel. Durandi tractatu de modo Generalis Concilii celebrandi; Libello Clamengii de corrupto Ecclesiæ statu; Libello Cardinalis de Alliaco, de emendatione {129} Ecclesiæ; et Gentiani Herveti oratione de reparandâ Ecclesiasticâ disciplinâ (quæ omnia, excepto primo, huic appendici inserentur), A.D. 1671. In hac nostrâ editione sequimur virum doctissimum et pium Hermannum Conringium; adhibitis multis aliis exemplaribus, quæ omniâ simul in hoc uno leges. _Vin' autem, Lector, aliquid penitius de hoc Corsilio rescire?_ adisis [_sic_] _P. Paulum Vergerium_ (invisum aliis sed charum nobis nomen), illiusque annotationes, in Catalogum hæreticorum consule, fol. 251. tomi primi illius operum Tubingæ editi, A.D. 1563, in 4to., et siquid noveris de reliquorum tomorum editione, nos Anglos fac, quæso, certiores. [It would seem that the need of your "N. & Q." was felt long before any one thought of supplying it.] Audi vero, interea, vel lege, Hermannum Conringium."
And this is what that "learned and godly" man says:
"Libellus ipse Cardinalis Capuani [Nicholas Schomberg], ut creditur, cura ad amicum in Germaniam missus, mox anno 1539, et populari nostrâ et suâ est linguâ per Lutherum et Sturmium editus. _Eundem post vulgavit_, cum acri ad _Papam Paulum IV. (qui olim fuerat auctorum)_ præfatione, _Petrus Paulus Vergerius_, postquam Protestantium partibus accessisset."
I will not add to the length of this Note by any farther quotations; but I am bound to say that if those I have given do not satisfy NOVUS, he may expect to be overwhelmed by confirmations of them.
B. D. WOODWARD.
Bungay, Suffolk.
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JOHN BUNYAN.
(Vol. ix., p. 104.)