Part 17

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. I think it is quite common knowledge that, even from our daily papers, the Communists did support the North Koreans.

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes; but the daily papers do not tell us what was done in your particular cell or group of the Communist Party, and that is what we want to know.

Mr. CARLSON. Well, after that war broke out, Mr. Chairman, I did not participate. I can’t tell what they done because I don’t know.

Mr. TAVENNER. Then why did you disagree with them if you didn’t know what they were doing?

Mr. CARLSON. Well, you remember, as history shows--according to the papers, anyway--that in the time before the First World War broke out, I remember--it just comes to my mind--the papers printed that the Communist Party members of France tore up their Communist cards immediately when Russia signed some sort of a pact with Germany. You probably recall that in your own mind. I think that is a historical fact. At least the paper files will show that. I recall it that way. Now the same situation was mine, although I might add, as I have said before, that was the straw that broke the camel’s back as far as I am concerned.

Mr. TAVENNER. Did you attend any meeting of the Communist Party after you wrote the letter on June 19, 1954, to this committee?

(The witness confers with his counsel).

Mr. TAVENNER. Did you attend any meeting of the Communist Party after the outbreak of the Korean War?

Mr. CARLSON. Not to the best of my recollection; I don’t believe so.

Mr. TAVENNER. I understand you will not tell this committee anything about the activities of the Communist Party during the period when you were a member. Is that correct?

Mr. CARLSON. Because the answer to those questions might tend to incriminate me, and, on advise of my counsel, I refuse to answer those questions.

Mr. TAVENNER. I have no further questions.

Mr. MOULDER. Any questions?

Mr. VELDE. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Since the witness is unwilling to give us any of the information which we are certain he has regarding his activities in the Communist Party while he was a member, possibly he would tell us what motivated him to get into the Communist Party, to join the Communist Party in the first place.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. Could I answer that question, Mr. Congressman, and not go into other questions regarding it?

Mr. VELDE. Yes, certainly. I would like to have you answer.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. I was looking for an answer to the problems that beset many, many workers besides myself. And I really had a rough time during the depression.

Mr. VELDE. Did you join the party, then, during the depression?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. CARLSON. My understanding was that if I answered the previous question there would not be any more regarding that.

Mr. VELDE. I did not understand it that way at all. I am sorry if you misinterpreted my question. And I don’t mean to treat you unfairly in any way or try to trap you. It seems to me that if anybody is being trapped you are being trapped by your own unwillingness to answer questions that are put to you about your activities in the Communist Party. I think, Mr. Chairman, the record should show during the course of the examination by Mr. Tavenner and by you that the witness has been conferring with his counsel regarding the answers to the questions.

Mr. MOULDER. The record will reflect conferences with counsel in that regard.

Mr. TAVENNER. I have no further questions.

Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.

At this time the committee will read a letter which was just received, addressed to myself as chairman. The letter is from the Musicians’ Association of Seattle, Local 76, A. F. of M.

DEAR SIR: I am distressed to learn that our member, Mrs. Helen Taverniti, has not made herself available for service of the subpena from the House Un-American Activities Committee.

I wish to point out that since 1940 the American Federation of Musicians has persistently carried on a sustained effort to remove from our membership persons proven to be affiliated with organizations of a subversive nature. In fact, our bylaws specifically provide that membership in the Communist Party or any Communist “front” organization is cause for immediate expulsion from membership.

The executive board of local 76 has deemed it necessary to send a registered letter to Mrs. Helen Taverniti at her last known address, citing her to appear before the board for interrogation relative to this matter.

Very truly yours,

LESLIE R. MARTIN, _President_.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mrs. Margaret Elizabeth Gustafson.

Will you come forward, please.

Mr. MOULDER. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. I do.

Mr. MOULDER. Be seated.

TESTIMONY OF MARGARET ELIZABETH GUSTAFSON, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, KENNETH A. MacDONALD

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you state your name please?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. Margaret Elizabeth Gustafson.

Mr. TAVENNER. It is noted that you are accompanied by counsel.

Will counsel please identify himself for the record?

Mr. MACDONALD. Kenneth A. MacDonald, a lawyer of the city of Seattle.

Mr. TAVENNER. When and where were you born, Mrs. Gustafson?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. I was born February 9, 1912, in the city of Seattle.

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you spell your last name, please?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. G-u-s-t-a-f-s-o-n.

Mr. TAVENNER. Where do you now reside?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. In Bremerton, Wash.

Mr. TAVENNER. How are you employed?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. As a schoolteacher.

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you tell the committee, please, what your formal educational training has been?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. I graduated from San Diego State College in 1933, attended Mills for graduate work the following year. I have had summer school at the Western Washington College of Education, at the University of Washington, extension courses----

TRADE UNIONISM

=104--Union Meeting Procedure=

Monday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. Herman Ott

How to organize and run a union meeting. Discuss and practice rules of order; learn to exercise your rights in a union meeting.

=106--History of American Labor=

Friday, 1:00-3:00 P.M. Friday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. John Deschbach

A background for understanding the labor problems of the present. Deals with major developments in the labor movement, special emphasis on events from World War I and on.

=108--Trade Union Organizational Problems

Wednesday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Harvey Jackins

Continuation of last term’s course, but open to new registrants. Covering problems of organizing and operating a local union.

=109--Psychology for Unionists=

Wednesday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. Dr. Ralph Gundlach

Problem of making a dues-payer into a union man. Psychological approach to such topics as handling grievances, discrimination, job evaluation and personnel management.

=110--Labor’s Experience in Political Action=

Friday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. H. Richard Seller Thomas C. Rabbitt

Analysis of labor, success and failures in political action. Includes practical information on government and how labor can use its strength to safeguard democracy.

=115--Labor as Consumer=

Monday, 1:00-3:00 P.M. Mary Salvus

How to buy, what to buy, and what not to buy. Provides “shopping to save” techniques. Class members will cooperate in field work to determine good and bad buys in the Seattle area.

=118--The Truth About Unions=

Thursday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Richard Berner

This course is for everyone--but especially for rank and filers who want correct answers on the structure and role of the unions. Here is an opportunity for those outside of organized labor to deal with the facts--rather than the fictions which circulate about unions.

=120--Labor News Reporting=

Monday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Terry Pettus H. Richard Seller

A course for beginners as well as those with some experience in the technique of news reporting for the labor press, with special emphasis on learning-by-doing. It will deal with techniques of journalism and the reporting of news, not views.

SOCIAL SCIENCES

=204--Facts Behind the News=

Thursday. 8:30-10:00 P.M. Albert M. Ottenheimer

A critical discussion of the news behind the headlines. Analysis of fast moving events in national and international affairs.

=205--Science and the Problems of Race=

Tuesday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Dorothy Anderson

Will help supply scientific understanding of backgrounds and contributions of various peoples. Deals with the origin of racial and religious prejudices, and gives facts to combat them.

=209--Child Psychology=

Tuesday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. Dr. Sylvia Mac Coll

The job of being a mother--with practical application to everyday problems in rearing healthy, normal children and to the establishment of healthy parent-child relationships.

=210--Science of Society=

Monday, 1:00-3:00 P.M. Monday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Bert MacLeech

A scientific analysis of the basic forces at work in the world today. Covers a study of the origin and development of capitalism, the rise of modern imperialism and theory and practice of socialism.

=214--World Politics=

Friday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. John Deschbach

This course deals with the major trends in international relations, with special attention to relations between Britain, the Soviet Union, and the United States.

=215--Development of Socialist Thought II=

Wednesday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. Bert MacLeech

Course continues the winter’s study, but is open to new registrants. Covers major developments of Socialist thought since the turn of the 20th Century.

=216--Political Economy I=

Monday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. Harry Fugl

Course deals with basic laws of capitalistic economy. Analyzes relationships of value and price, wages and profits; special emphasis on the role of organized labor’s effect on these relationships.

=217--Political Economy II=

Monday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Harry Fugl

Continuation of Political Economy I; a study of the basic laws of capitalist economy.

=219--Problems Facing the Negro People=

Tuesday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. Carl Brooks

Concerns present growing crisis in unemployment, housing, and discrimination of the Negro peoples; and how to combat policies which divide and weaken the community and country.

=220--What is Philosophy=

Thursday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Prof. H. J. Phillips

Treats philosophy in terms of its relation to the principal needs and interests of men today. Get acquainted with some of the major thinkers of the past and present.

SCHEDULE OF CLASSES--PACIFIC NORTHWEST LABOR SCHOOL

+-------------------+--------------------+------------------+-------------------+---------------------+ | Monday | Tuesday | Wednesday | Thursday | Friday | | DAY CLASSES | DAY CLASSES | DAY CLASSES | DAY CLASSES | DAY CLASSES | | 1:00-3:00 P.M. |10:00 A.M.-4:00 P.M.| 1:00-3:00 P.M. | 12 Noon--Meet | 1:00-3:00 P.M. | |115--Labor as |Maritime Leadership |320 Recreation as | and Eat | 106--History of | | Consumer | Training School | Leadership | 10:00-12:00 P.M.| American Labor | |120--Science of | | |322--Crafts | | | Society | | | Workshop | | +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+-------------------+---------------------+ |6:45-8:15 P.M. |6:45-8:15 P.M. |6:45-8:15 P.M. |6:45-8:15 P.M. |6:45-8:15 P.M | |120--Labors News |205--Science and |108--Trade Union |118--Truth About |110--Labor and | | Reporting | Problems of Race | Organization | Unions | Political | |210--Science of |312--Everyone Can | Problems |220--What is | Action | | Society | Draw |323--Recreation as| Philosophy |214--World Politics | |217--Political | | Union Leadership| |315--Labor Sings | | Economy II | | | | | +-------------------+--------------------+------------------+-------------------+---------------------+ |8:30-10:00 P.M. |8:30-10:00 P.M. |8:30-10:00 P.M. |8:30-10:00 P.M. |8:30-10:00 P.M. | |104--Union Meeting |209--Child |109--Psychology |204--Facts Behind |106--History of | | Procedure | Psychology | for Unionists | the News | American Labor | |216--Political |219--Problems of |215--Development | |Junior Town Hall and | | Economy I | Negro People | of Socialist | | Youth Canteen | | | | Thought II | |(Alternate weeks | | | |304--Swing Your | | beginning April 11)| | | | Pardner | | | | SATURDAY, 10-12--CHILDREN’S WORKSHOP SUNDAY NIGHT: FORUM NIGHT, 1:00-3:00 P.M. | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

WORKSHOPS

=304--Swing Your Pardner=

Wednesday, 8:30-10:00 P.M. Ruth MacLeech

The rollicking calls of folk and country dances--some with real labor flavor--will mean real fun for you. So get your pardner--or you’ll find one there--and join in. Individual sessions will be open to all comers.

=312--Everyone Can Draw=

Tuesday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. John Davis

A class for everyone who wants to learn to draw or paint and enjoy it. The course will cover the fundamentals of freehand drawing, cartoons, designs, etc.

=315--Labor Sings=

Friday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Hazel Johnson Helen Taverniti

If you can carry a tune, come and sing peoples songs--old and new. You do not need to read music or have choral training. Learn songs to use at union, club meetings.

=320--Recreation as Leadership=

Wednesday, 1:00-3:00 P.M. Ruth MacLeech

How to plan and arrange recreation for children’s groups. A workshop in simple uses of music, puppetry, crafts. Source material available for planning programs around these skills.

=321--Recreation as Union Leadership=

Wednesday, 6:45-8:15 P.M. Ruth MacLeech

How recreation can be used to activate the union membership. Deals especially with simple uses of music, crafts and other recreational techniques. Source material available for unionists planning activities in these fields.

=322--Craft Workshop=

Thursday, 10:00 A.M.-12:00 P.M. Trudi Hirshman

Simple projects for the home and trade union hall, using inexpensive and salvage materials. A chance to learn new skills and satisfactions while producing what interests you.

=Meet and Eat Club (No Fee Charged)=

Thursday, Noon to 2:00 P.M. Edith Coley

Bring a bag lunch and enjoy two hours gaining latest information on Child Development, Home Management, Health and Family Relations. Speakers, specialists in their fields, and films featured. Coffee will be furnished. Child care will be provided. No fee charged.

See Other Side for Announcements on Children and Youth Work.

NOTE: REGISTRATION IS OPEN NOW FOR CLASSES

BEGINNING APRIL 7, 1947

* * * * *

Mr. TAVENNER. When were you at the University of Washington?

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. 1940, the summer session.

Mr. TAVENNER. I interrupted you. You were in the course of giving some further extension work.

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. I have had extension courses; I just finished one a few weeks ago.

Mr. TAVENNER. How have you been employed since 1940?

(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. In 1941 I taught kindergarten. Right after Pearl Harbor I went into the Puget Sound Naval Shipyard. And when I left there I organized and supervised the war emergency nursery schools in Bremerton, the after-school-care program for the children of working mothers. Then I worked for the Kitsap County Welfare Department.

Mr. TAVENNER. When was that, please? Approximately.

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. My first child was born in 1945. So it was the year of 1945, maybe the latter part of 1944. I don’t recall exactly.

Then in the fall of 1947 I went back to teaching in the Bremerton public schools, and have been there ever since.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mrs. Gustafson, do you have any knowledge of the operation of the Northwest Labor School in Seattle?

(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. I shall have to avail myself of the privilege granted me by the fifth amendment of the Constitution of the United States, which protects me from giving testimony which might incriminate me.

Mr. MOULDER. The question asked was: Do you possess any information or knowledge concerning the school referred to by counsel?

(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mr. MOULDER. He did not ask you for any specific information. He just asked you if you had such information, if you knew about the school. Do you refuse or decline to answer?

(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. I shall have to avail myself of the privilege of invoking the fifth amendment for the reasons given before.

Mr. TAVENNER. Did you attend the Pacific Northwest Labor School at any time?

(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mrs. GUSTAFSON. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously given.

Mr. TAVENNER. Quite apparently, Mr. Chairman, it would be a useless waste of time to ask any further questions regarding the operation of the school.

(The Spring 1947 Catalogue of the Pacific Northwest Labor School is hereby made a part of the transcript, and appears herewith.)

Mr. TAVENNER. During the period of time that you have been engaged in teaching have you been a member of the American Federation of Teachers unions?

(The witness confers with her counsel.)

Mr. TAVENNER. And I should add, for your information, that the American Federation of Teachers unions has never been cited as a communist front organization.

(The witness confers with her counsel.)