Investigation of Communist Activities in Seattle, Wash., Area, Hearings, Part 1
Part 12
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to explain that there are 3 branches of the machinists union in the city of Seattle.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Which one do you mean?
Mr. WHEELER. Any one of the three.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. I must invoke the fifth amendment to that question, and refuse to answer.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. I am unemployed at the present time.
Mr. WHEELER. I would like to read a telegram. This telegram was sent by one Ed Carlson, member of the machinists union, is so identified, and appears in part 11 (appendix), page 6748, of the hearings held here in June 1954. It is dated Seattle, Wash., June 19, 1954, and addressed to the Velde committee, Seattle.
DEAR SIRS: I see by the paper that Mrs. Hartle names one Ed Carlson as a member of the Communist Party in the machinists union. I presume I am the individual referred to. So that the record is straight, let me insert this into the record for all to see and hear.
It did not take me 20 years to decide that the Communist Party was not the answer to the problems as I see them. In fact, I am very nearly positive it was Mrs. Hartle who tried to persuade me to reconsider my decision to discontinue my affiliations, which is now approximately 5 years ago.
I do believe that my many friends and acquaintances are entitled to this additional clarification of the facts.
Sincerely,
ED CARLSON, _Member of Machinists Union_.
Did you send that telegram, Mr. Carlson?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Yes; I did.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Will you specify the date that you are referring to?
Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I am not a member of the Communist Party today. But in regards to whether I ever have been one, the answer may tend to incriminate me, and I refuse to answer.
Mr. MOULDER. In other words, during the past 5 years, as I understand the telegram, you have not been a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. MOULDER. In other words, 5 years ago you disassociated yourself from any connection with the Communist Party movement. Is that so? Approximately 5 years ago?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. MOULDER. It all amounts to the same thing since you answered the question by simply saying that during the last 5 years you have not been associated with the Communist Party, as I understand it from your attempt or your endeavor to clear yourself here. And that I would certainly like to see you do.
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, the question of association is so very broad that I feel that you should make that question more specific.
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. MOULDER. By disassociating yourself it is not meant by that if you happened to be around someone who might have been a member of the Communist Party. I mean did you yourself, in your belief, your philosophy, your way of thinking and your way of activities, disassociate yourself from the Communist Party approximately 5 years ago? Is that so?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I never have--I did not participate knowingly with the Communist Party during that period.
Mr. MOULDER. Are you now referring to the past 5 years?
Mr. CARLSON. That is correct.
Mr. MOULDER. May I ask you this question:
Is your attitude and opinion concerning Communist Party activities now different than 5 years ago?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Mr. Chairman, I can’t specifically state what my opinions are. I just am in utter confusion.
Mr. MOULDER. It is not the purpose of this committee, it is not our intention, Mr. Velde and I or Mr. Wheeler, to confuse anyone or to commit any injustice toward you.
I am impressed by your appearance and your endeavor to try to come forward and make a clean statement or explanation. And I think it would be to your benefit for you to do it for your own interest. I am sure it would be.
You infer that maybe at one time you may have had some connection with Communist Party activities. You probably have some reasonable explanation for which you maybe couldn’t or wouldn’t necessarily be criticized or condemned.
Mr. CARLSON. It is very hard for me to understand what you are saying. Some of the words I do not catch.
Would you speak a little louder, please?
Mr. MOULDER. May I ask you this question:
Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. No.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you now believe in the Communist Party philosophy or its objectives?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. CARLSON. Well, Mr. Chairman, in the light of all the testimony that I have read in the papers and heard, I really don’t know what it is about, I don’t really know what they do stand for. I am confused in my own mind.
Mr. VELDE. It is not the purpose or intention of this committee, and I can very well speak for all of the members of the committee, to get you into a position where you are in contempt of Congress. I concur with Mr. Moulder in his statement a few moments ago. I think that you do have a problem. I think that you are confused about the situation. Nevertheless, you do have, in my opinion, some information which would be valuable to this committee. At the same time you could clear your own conscience, so to speak, if you would give us the benefit of the information you have regarding your Communist Party connections.
So I am going to ask, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be excused and be given a chance to consult with his attorney and think the proposition over, and possibly he may decide to return and give us the information which we believe he has.
Mr. MOULDER. I think that is a splendid suggestion Mr. Velde has made.
You will be excused until tomorrow morning. You think this over, and in the meantime, if you wish to talk to any of the investigators or counsel or any member of the committee, we would be happy to talk to you. Give it serious thought.
You will be excused until 9 o’clock in the morning.
(Whereupon the witness was excused until 9 o’clock the following morning.)
Mr. MOULDER. Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.
Mr. WHEELER. Edmund Kroener.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. KROENER. I do.
TESTIMONY OF EDMUND D. KROENER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, C. CALVERT KNUDSEN
Mr. WHEELER. Will you state your full name, please?
Mr. KROENER. Edmund D. Kroener.
Mr. WHEELER. Will counsel for the witness identify himself for the record?
Mr. KNUDSEN. C. Calvert Knudsen. And may the record show that I am, Mr. Chairman, if you please, the treasurer of the Seattle Bar Association, and, at the request of that association and at the request of this gentleman, I am undertaking to represent him at this hearing inasmuch as he is financially unable to obtain other counsel.
Mr. MOULDER. The record will so reflect the statement made by counsel.
Mr. VELDE. May I make this remark?
In connection with our hearings last June it was mentioned several times that the mere fact that an attorney represents a witness who might be a fifth amendment witness should be no reflection whatsoever on the attorney. And I am sure that is true of all the attorneys who have appeared here today.
Mr. MOULDER. It is your duty to be here in the capacity in which you appear here today, in the honor of your own profession.
Mr. KNUDSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. WHEELER. Will you spell your name, please?
Mr. KROENER. K-r-o-e-n-e-r.
Mr. WHEELER. Do you presently reside in Seattle?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. What is your occupation, Mr. Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. Work as a machinist.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?
Mr. KROENER. No; I am not.
Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you a member of any union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. I wish to invoke, on answering that, the fifth amendment, on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Have they instituted charges against you to remove you from membership in the union?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. What has been your educational background, Mr. Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. First half year of the eighth grade of grammar school.
Mr. WHEELER. In Seattle?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. How have you been employed?
Mr. KROENER. When I was younger I worked in logging camps and did odd jobs in the steel mills, and as a welder. And, oh, since about 1941 and 1942 I have worked in the machine trade.
Mr. WHEELER. In the machine trade?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. WHEELER. For what companies have you worked as a machinist?
Mr. KROENER. I don’t remember all of them exactly, and I couldn’t say the times I have worked for a number of the uptown shops and marine yards in Seattle. Some of them have gone out of business. Gibson’s has gone out of business. And I worked at Washington Iron Works and marine yards around Seattle.
Mr. WHEELER. Do you know who just preceded you on the witness stand?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. I wish to again invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you present in the hearing room when Mr. Eugene Robel testified?
Mr. KROENER. I was present.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with him?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Were you present in the hearing room when Mr. Harold Johnston testified?
Mr. KROENER. I was present.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mr. Harold Johnston?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Is it a fact that the three individuals I just mentioned, along with you and other people, were members of a cell within the machinists union?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have any knowledge as to the action taken by a machinists union referred to by Mr. Wheeler in expelling members from that union where there is evidence of their Communist affiliations?
Mr. KROENER. I believe there may be some such program going on, but I am not too well acquainted with it. So I couldn’t answer it too clearly.
Mr. MOULDER. Is the reason why you refuse to answer because of the fear you might be expelled from the union?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have knowledge and information that the union referred to is exercising its efforts to rid its ranks of persons who are Communists?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. MOULDER. I hope the witness has contributed to the union’s effort.
Mr. WHEELER. When and where you were born, Mr. Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. Seattle, Wash., April 8, 1920.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?
Mr. KROENER. Again I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. WHEELER. Did you know that Mrs. Hartle, in her testimony as a witness before this committee in June 1954, identified you as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. KROENER. Again I invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Have no comment other than that concerning her testimony?
Mr. KROENER. No.
Mr. VELDE. Mr. Wheeler, do you have the testimony of Mrs. Hartle there?
Mr. WHEELER. I do, sir.
Mr. VELDE. Will you read it for the record, please?
Mr. WHEELER. Mrs. Hartle, during a portion of the testimony discussing the industrial branch of the Communist Party, was questioned by Mr. Tavenner:
Will you tell the committee, please, whether or not there was any important function that Elmer Thrasher performed in the industrial section of the party?
Mrs. HARTLE. He was chairman of a branch in the industrial section, in the building trades. He was a member of one of the building-trades unions--the carpenters union.
Another one whom I recall is Ed Kroener. He lived in the Duwamish Bend area, in the Duwamish Bend housing project, with his wife, Donna Kroener, who was a member of the south King region and the Duwamish Bend Club, but he was a member of the industrial section inasmuch as he was a member of the Machinists Union, Local No. 79.
Do you wish to comment on that testimony, Mr. Kroener?
Mr. KROENER. No.
Mr. VELDE. To what period of time was Mrs. Hartle referring?
Mr. WHEELER. To what period of time, Mr. Kroener, was she referring?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Kroener, did you at any time participate as an individual within the Progressive Party in 1948 in the State of Washington?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?
Mr. KROENER. Again I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. WHEELER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. MOULDER. Mr. Velde?
Mr. VELDE. I have just one brief question. How could your acquaintanceship with Mrs. Hartle or Mr. Johnston or the other witnesses whom you were asked about tend to incriminate you?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. KROENER. The answer to that question may open up a whole field of other questions, and, therefore, I wish to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds of self-incrimination.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have anything else you wish to say in explanation of your presence or your appearance here?
Are you married?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. MOULDER. Do you have a family?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. MOULDER. Did you serve in the Armed Forces of the United States?
Mr. KROENER. Yes.
Mr. MOULDER. In what capacity and what branch?
Mr. KROENER. I was in the Marine Corps, 1944, 1945, and 1946, South Pacific and China.
Mr. MOULDER. Is there anything further you wish to say?
Mr. KROENER. That is all.
Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.
(Whereupon the witness was excused.)
The committee will stand recessed until tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.
(Whereupon, at 4:57 p. m., the committee was recessed, to be reconvened at 9 a. m., Friday, March 18, 1955.) [Blank Page]
INVESTIGATION OF COMMUNIST ACTIVITIES IN THE SEATTLE, WASH., AREA
FRIDAY, MARCH 18, 1955
UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,
_Seattle, Wash._
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met, pursuant to recess, at 9 a. m., in Room 402, County-City Building, Seattle, Wash., Hon. Morgan M. Moulder (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Morgan M. Moulder (chairman) and Harold H. Velde (appearance as noted).
Staff members present: Frank S. Tavenner, Jr., counsel; William A. Wheeler, staff investigator.
Mr. MOULDER. The subcommittee will be in order.
Mr. Counsel, call the witness you wish to examine.
Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to recall Mr. Dennett at this time.
TESTIMONY OF EUGENE VICTOR DENNETT, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, KENNETH A. MacDONALD--Resumed
Mr. TAVENNER. It is noted, Mr. Dennett, that your counsel is not with you. Do you prefer to wait until he arrives before proceeding?
Mr. DENNETT. It doesn’t make any particular difference. I am sure my counsel intends to be here as soon as he can get here, but there is no need to delay.
Mr. TAVENNER. I understand he is in the corridor, so we will wait until he arrives.
(At this point Kenneth A. MacDonald, counsel to the witness, entered the hearing room.)
Mr. TAVENNER. When you left the stand yesterday, Mr. Dennett, we were speaking of your experience in the Communist Party at Bellingham. Will you please describe to the committee what additional activities of the Communist Party you engaged in while at Bellingham.
Mr. DENNETT. I believe, sir, that I recounted that the Communist Party was active in the unemployed movement, and our membership grew from 7 to approximately 160 in the course of a year’s time, and that we had proceeded to reorient that membership in the party from exclusive work in the unemployment councils to working in an organization known as the People’s Councils, which was organized by non-party people.
The two leaders of that organization at that time were Mr. M. M. London and Mr. George Bradley.
The Communist Party was quite disturbed that there was such an effective organization in existence which was not directly under our leadership.
Mr. TAVENNER. What was the name of that organization?
Mr. DENNETT. The People’s Councils. Consequently, one of our major objectives was to win that leadership to support the party position one way or another. We had had previous experience with Mr. London and we considered that it was not possible to win Mr. London back to--or to support the party. Therefore, we concentrated our attention on Mr. Bradley, and ultimately won him to support the party and the party position in opposition to Mr. London.
Mr. TAVENNER. When you say you won Mr. Bradley to the support of the Communist Party position, do you mean to indicate that he became a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. DENNETT. Yes; he did. He became a member of the Communist Party after my constant agitation with him had convinced him that the Communist Party program was a sounder program and a better program than the one that they were pursuing in the People’s Councils.
And Mr. Bradley was unable to convince Mr. London, and they became at some conflict in point of view on that.
Mr. TAVENNER. The organization there known as the Unemployed Councils, if I understood your testimony correctly, was a Communist-organized group?
Mr. DENNETT. That is true. The Unemployed Council was organized by the Communist Party, and it was our policy throughout that entire period to insist that all unemployed organizations, if they were to truly represent the unemployed, had to affiliate with the Unemployed Councils.
Now in the case of the People’s Councils, we tried to get them to affiliate with the National Unemployed Councils. They never did. Even after we won Bradley to our support the rest of the membership still would not agree to direct affiliation with the National Unemployed Council. Instead, they felt that they had a greater kinship and association with the Unemployed Citizens Leagues, which had been organized in the city of Seattle and in various parts of the State of Washington under the leadership of anti-Communists who had originally come from the labor movement in the city of Seattle.
There were three particular leaders of the Unemployed Citizens League who organized it at the outset.
And I am not sure that I related yesterday how serious the unemployment problem was in the city of Seattle, but I am sure that if anyone would take the trouble to look up the records they would find that at one time there were over 90,000 families in the city of Seattle who were dependent upon public assistance to maintain themselves and their families.
There was no private employment in the city. The only persons who were receiving paychecks were those who were working for either the State, Federal, or city governments. And under those circumstances the problem was very, very acute. The tax rolls were overtaxed. I mean by that that the tax burden was greater than the city was able to bear. The city treasury was soon exhausted trying to maintain the citizens who were unemployed through no fault of their own.
Soon the county budget was exhausted, and they were perplexed. The problem was far more serious and far more acute than the average person today can possibly comprehend unless he looks at the statistics, which are available, I am sure, in some of the research libraries.
I speak of that about the city of Seattle because I have some knowledge of it from personal experience. The same situation existed in nearly every small city in the State of Washington at that time. I cannot testify as to what the condition was in other parts of the country.
But it was that condition which opened the door for widespread organization on the part of workers and unaffiliated and disaffiliated people, and it was when they came into these organizations that it became possible for the Communists to begin to hammer away with the class-struggle line of tactics and the insistence that a relentless fight must be waged against the capitalist system and blame the capitalist system for this condition of unemployment.
It created a problem, too, for those who held public office because they did not know what to do about it. And, frankly, it wasn’t possible for any local people to solve the problem. It had to be dealt with on a national scale, on a national basis.
It was not until after the new administration took office in 1933 that steps were taken which made it possible to start the wheels of industry in motion again. And as those wheels of industry got started in motion it was possible for these workers to find jobs. And when they started finding jobs they left the unemployed organizations. When they left the unemployed organizations they got out from under the immediate influence of the Communists who had entered those organizations, and, in many instances, obtained control.
I am speaking specifically of the Unemployed Citizens League, the People’s Councils, and I think that there were some other organizations around here that I have forgotten the names of.
I think that there was one called the United Producers of Washington that was created over in Pierce County which was affiliated with the Unemployed Citizens League.
There were many different names of these organizations, and they assumed different forms. But essentially they all performed the same function. They provided a center around which people could begin to develop their own ideas and listen to other people’s ideas.
I would certainly like to make certain that everyone understands that that kind of problem has to be dealt with also with ideas.
Mr. TAVENNER. You made reference to unemployment citizens’ leagues. Were there such organizations in Bellingham?
Mr. DENNETT. No, there were not. The People’s Councils performed all the functions which the Unemployed Citizens Leagues would do, plus the fact that the People’s Councils also developed some political aspirations. I mean they did embark upon an independent political campaign, and they did run candidates for public office. That was largely due to the influence of the Communist Party there. Remember 1932? We were insistent that they not support either the Democratic or Republican Parties because we branded them as capitalist parties, and we insisted that the only way it was possible for the workers to obtain what they wanted was through their own party.
We succeeded in prevailing upon the People’s Councils to run their independent candidates, and some of them came very close to election to office. They didn’t quite make it.