Part 10

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment, as previously stated.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

Mr. MOULDER. Mr. Velde?

Mr. VELDE. Were you born in Minnesota?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. Yes.

Mr. VELDE. I note you took refuge in the fifth amendment when questioned about your acquaintanceship with Mr. Eugene Dennett.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. That is correct.

Mr. VELDE. You were here in the hearing room while he was testifying about your activities at the youth camp at Pine Lake, were you not?

Mr. HALONEN. I so testified earlier.

Mr. VELDE. You did see him here, didn’t you?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. Yes, I did.

Mr. VELDE. Had you ever met him before? Did you recognize him when he was testifying?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. I invoke the fifth amendment and decline to answer that question on the grounds of possible self-incrimination.

Mr. VELDE. You might have some misunderstanding about what acquaintanceship is. I wanted to know if you ever saw him before. I can see no reason why you shouldn’t answer that question or why that would tend to incriminate you in any way.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. Not being too sharp on the legal aspects, I am afraid of waiving my rights under the fifth amendment, and, for that reason, I am invoking the fifth amendment.

Mr. VELDE. I am not trying to trap you. Seriously, I can see no reason for not identifying him or anyone else you may have seen before. A lot of people in this room are acquainted with people who have been incriminated and have served jail sentences. I see no reason why an acquaintanceship of that type with a person should incriminate you or me or anyone else.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. Well, I respectfully invoke the fifth amendment again on the question asked for the reasons previously stated.

Mr. VELDE. Have you ever known any member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. I again must decline to answer that question under the fifth amendment, as previously stated.

Mr. VELDE. Have you ever met a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. HALONEN. Again I decline to answer under the fifth amendment for the reasons stated previously.

Mr. VELDE. Do you know anyone in this room?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. I know my counsel here.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. VELDE. Why do you admit that you know your counsel and refuse to admit that you know Mr. Dennett?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. My acquaintance with my counsel could not possibly incriminate me in any way.

Mr. VELDE. Do you feel that you are engaged at the present time in any activity which is of a subversive nature and subversive to the Government of the United States?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. I must decline to answer that question again, under the fifth amendment, for the reasons as stated previously.

Mr. VELDE. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MOULDER. In connection with the last question Mr. Velde was asking if you had any knowledge, or if you ever committed any act of espionage or engaged in any activity contrary to the interests of the United States, I will ask you this question?

Are you engaged in any organization work or any activities leading toward the overthrow of our present form of government by force or violence?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. I must decline, or I must state that I have never engaged in any espionage, but, as far as the rest of the question is concerned. I must again invoke the fifth amendment on possible self-incrimination.

Mr. MOULDER. In other words, you answer by saying that you did not engage in any espionage, but refuse to answer as to whether or not you are actively engaged in any effort to overthrow our Government by force and violence. That is the way I construe your answer.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. HALONEN. That is correct.

Mr. MOULDER. Are there any further questions?

Mr. VELDE. No, but I do feel that the witness possesses a great deal of information which would be valuable to the committee in its work, in its obligations that we are duty bound to perform, and I regret the position the witness has taken.

I hope he will reconsider his position and return to give the committee the information he possesses.

Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Mr. MOULDER. Counsel, proceed with the next witness.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Eugene Frank Robel, please.

Mr. MOULDER. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you, God?

Mr. ROBEL. I do.

TESTIMONY OF EUGENE FRANK ROBEL, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES

Mr. WHEELER. Will you state your name, please.

Mr. ROBEL. E-u-g-e-n-e F-r-a-n-k R-o-b-e-l, Eugene Frank Robel.

Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Robel?

Mr. ROBEL. I was born in Kit Carson County, Colo., on a homestead.

Mr. WHEELER. In what year?

Mr. ROBEL. 1911.

Mr. WHEELER. You are represented by counsel. Will he please identify himself for the record?

Mr. SYKES. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.

Mr. WHEELER. Would you briefly advise the committee as to your education?

Mr. ROBEL. I have a high-school education and 2 years of university.

Mr. WHEELER. What university is that?

Mr. ROBEL. Moscow, Idaho--not Russia.

Mr. WHEELER. The University of Idaho?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. How long have you lived in the city of Seattle?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I came here the latter part of 1937, I believe. I have been here since.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever served in the Armed Forces of the United States?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. In what branch?

Mr. ROBEL. United States Navy.

Mr. WHEELER. At what period of time were you in the United States Navy?

Mr. ROBEL. From 1933 to 1937.

Mr. WHEELER. Were you honorably discharged?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir. I had a good-conduct discharge. I have the medal at home.

Mr. WHEELER. What is your employment record for the last 10 years?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I worked for an oil company for my first 4 years in Seattle, General Petroleum Corp.

Mr. WHEELER. That would be 1937 to 1941?

Mr. ROBEL. I think that is approximately the figures. Then I worked as a machinist at various jobs.

Mr. WHEELER. Specifically, what jobs have you held as a machinist?

Mr. ROBEL. Mostly outside machinist, but at times maintenance.

Mr. WHEELER. For what companies have you worked?

Mr. ROBEL. I have worked for Todd’s, Pacific Iron Foundry, Isaacson Iron Works, and Sahlberg Equipment Co.

Mr. WHEELER. Where are you employed now?

Mr. ROBEL. Todd’s.

Mr. WHEELER. Todd Shipyards?

Mr. ROBEL. Yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Are they engaged in defense work or defense contracts?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I think so, indirectly. I don’t know how they get their contracts.

Mr. WHEELER. Do you have a security clearance?

Mr. ROBEL. No, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you been denied security clearance?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. No, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of any labor union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. On the advice of counsel, because to answer that might tend to incriminate me, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that.

Mr. VELDE. May I again say you are not under any compulsion to take refuge under the fifth amendment. It is a privilege.

The question is do you invoke the fifth amendment?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I do invoke it. I recognize I am not under compulsion, but I do invoke it because of the possibility that I might be incriminated.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Chairman, again let me say that I cannot possibly see how a membership in a labor union, admission that you are a member of a labor union, could possibly tend to incriminate a person, and I ask the Chair to direct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. MOULDER. Certainly your being a member of a labor union could not in any way tend to incriminate you. So you are directed to answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. Well, membership in a particular labor union might incriminate me, and that is the reason I invoke the fifth amendment. One question leads to another.

Mr. MOULDER. It might lead to another question, but certainly if the other question would tend to incriminate you that is an entirely different matter. But the simple question as to whether or not you are a member of a legitimate labor union could in no way whatsoever tend to incriminate you.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I wouldn’t like to waive my rights under the fifth amendment by answering a previous question and then be forced to answer another one. That is the reason I took the position that I do.

Mr. MOULDER. Proceed.

Mr. VELDE. Do you belong to any labor union? That was the original question of counsel.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. Because that question might lead to the particular labor organization that I belong to, I will decline to answer that question.

Mr. VELDE. If it does lead to that question, you can then invoke your privilege under the fifth amendment of the Constitution.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. It is my understanding legally that I may waive my rights by answering one of these questions, and I don’t wish to waive my right to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. MOULDER. You certainly were not waiving your rights when you stated a moment ago you were employed and where you were employed.

Now if you belong to some labor organization in connection with your employment there is nothing in that connection certainly that would tend to incriminate you, if you are employed or in legitimate employment.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. We are getting into complicated rights of waiver, and it is my understanding legally that I may refuse to answer.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you decline to answer under the fifth amendment?

Mr. ROBEL. Under the fifth amendment, yes, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I must invoke the fifth amendment, as previously, and refuse to answer that.

Mr. MOULDER. I wish to say that for as long as I have served on this committee, a period of approximately 7 years, I have never heard anyone invoke the fifth amendment in response to a question as to whether or not he was a member of an A. F. of L. union.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. MOULDER. Proceed.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted or have you been acquainted in the past with Mrs. Barbara Hartle.

Mr. ROBEL. For the same reasons as previously given, that I might tend to incriminate myself, I will have to invoke the fifth amendment and refuse to answer that question.

Mr. WHEELER. Quoting her testimony before this committee, appearing on page 6094 of volume 2 of the hearings held in June 1954:

The Communist Party has always had a number of members in the machinists Union. Some of them that I can remember are Glenn Kinney, Ray Campbell, Frank Kerr, Gene Robel.

Was Mrs. Hartle advising the committee of the truth when she testified to that?

Mr. ROBEL. I must again invoke the fifth amendment for the previously stated reasons, and not admit or deny anything that any stool pigeon you may bring out says about me.

Mr. MOULDER. To whom do you refer as a stool pigeon?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I apologize for that statement, sir, and withdraw it.

Mr. MOULDER. Ordinarily a person referred to as a stool pigeon is one who is an accuser of some fact against someone else, and that person ordinarily retorts that they are a stool pigeon.

You do withdraw that reference.

Mr. WHEELER. Mrs. Hartle also testified--and this reference to her testimony can be found on page 6173 of volume 3 of the hearings:

Gene Robel, whom I have mentioned before, and Glenn Kinney were also members of this industrial section.

Mr. Robel, the committee, in pursuance of its duties, is endeavoring to gain knowledge of the industrial section of the Communist Party in King County, and you, having been identified as a member of that section, is the reason you have been subpenaed here. We would like to get what information we can from you.

Now I would like to ask you:

Were you a member of the industrial section of the Communist Party?

Mr. ROBEL. I must invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason previously stated, and refuse to answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the Communist Party today?

Mr. ROBEL. I must invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason and refuse to answer that question on the ground that I might incriminate myself.

Mr. WHEELER. No further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MOULDER. Were you ever a member of the Communist Party?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. ROBEL. I must, likewise, invoke the fifth amendment on that question, and refuse to answer, sir.

Mr. MOULDER. Mr. Velde, any questions?

Mr. VELDE. No questions.

Mr. MOULDER. The witness is excused.

(Whereupon the witness was excused.)

Call the next witness, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Frank Kerr.

Mr. SYKES. Mr. Chairman, may I address the committee in respect to Mr. Kerr? There is a special problem involved with respect to Mr. Kerr.

Mr. MOULDER. Yes.

STATEMENT OF JAY G. SYKES

Mr. SYKES. I would like to hand to Mr. Wheeler a statement from Dr. Beattie, and ask that the committee consider Mr. Kerr’s physical condition, and if it sees fit to have him examined by a county doctor.

Mr. MOULDER. I notice that this is a letter written by Dr. John F. Beattie wherein he says that:

Mr. Frank Kerr has been under my care since January 12, 1954, because of coronary artery disease.

The letter does not state the patient was hospitalized in connection with his examination. It does not state he is now in the hospital. It is not very specific as to his exact illness, as to whether or not he is capable of appearing here as a witness without endangering his health or life.

Mr. SYKES. That is correct, Mr. Chairman. There was serious doubt in my mind, without knowing anything about the specific details of his illness, to be absolutely sure whether or not he should be examined by a doctor here, and if the doctor here should rule that he can testify I would have no objection. I thought that I should protect Mr. Kerr.

Mr. MOULDER. This is very vague.

Mr. SYKES. That is correct.

Mr. MOULDER. And very indefinite. We will take this under consideration.

Counsel, will you call another witness?

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Harold Johnston.

Mr. MOULDER. Hold up your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I do.

TESTIMONY OF HAROLD JOHNSTON, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, JAY C. SYKES

Mr. WHEELER. Will the witness state his name, please?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Harold Johnston.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you represented by counsel? Will counsel identify himself for the record?

Mr. SYKES. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.

Mr. WHEELER. When and where were you born, Mr. Johnston?

Mr. JOHNSTON. 1907, Yakima, Wash.

Mr. WHEELER. And what is your educational background?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Very little, less than grammar; didn’t finish grammar school.

Mr. WHEELER. How long have you lived in the Seattle district?

Mr. JOHNSTON. By Seattle district you mean King County?

Mr. WHEELER. Yes; or the periphery.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I don’t live in Seattle.

Mr. WHEELER. I understand that.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I have been there 15 years.

Mr. WHEELER. What is your employment record?

Mr. JOHNSTON. For the last 10 years it’s been machinist.

Mr. WHEELER. And prior to that?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Oh, odd jobs.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you presently employed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, I am.

Mr. WHEELER. Where are you presently employed?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Mr. Chairman, the subpena was served on me. First, they went to my home and my wife told them where I worked. And they went to the shop and were very courteous and called up my foreman, and I went out and they served me. And I am sure the committee has a record. And I don’t feel that it would do myself any good or the company to make it a part of the official record as to where I work. And I would like to not answer this question on that basis.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you decline to answer the question?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No. I definitely--I would like to be excused from answering it. I am not taking a position that I--but inasmuch as the deputy sheriff served me on the job, very courteous about it--met me at the gate and did not come in; told me he would be there--and I went out and looked him up--the committee knows where I work and I don’t feel it should become a record here of the company I work for.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you mean that answering the question as to where you are employed would reflect unfavorably upon the company which employs you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. It is possible with publicity in the paper. No use to bring unnecessary publicity on it. I feel that the committee should take that into consideration. They know where I work. Their man served a subpena on me. I would not like to answer that question.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Chairman, I feel I must insist that the witness answer the question as to where he is employed.

Throughout the history of this committee every witness who has appeared before the committee has been required to give his place of residence and his place of employment, or take refuge under the fifth amendment. It would be grossly unfair to all the witnesses who have previously appeared before this committee to allow you to escape answering that question.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Inasmuch as you already know----But I will answer then if you insist that I answer. I work at Lake Union Shipyards as of today--I don’t know about tomorrow.

Mr. WHEELER. What type of work do you do for the Lake Union Shipyards?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Machinist.

Mr. WHEELER. Is that company engaged upon classified matters, security work for the United States Government?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, we do a lot of fishing boat work. We do work on all types of ships. It is a small yard. So it is small boats we have there. We don’t have large ones like other yards do. It is mostly small boats. There is some Government work there, naturally.

Mr. WHEELER. Do you have a security clearance?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I do not.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever requested one?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I haven’t.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you ever been denied one?

Mr. JOHNSTON. No, I haven’t.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Barbara Hartle?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Because the answer is liable to have a tendency to incriminate me, at this time I invoke the fifth amendment and decline to answer that question.

Mr. MOULDER. In future replies along that line, do I understand you decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth amendment for the reason that your answers might tend to incriminate you?

Mr. JOHNSTON. That is right, sir.

Mr. WHEELER. Being a machinist, are you a member of any union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I will have to decline on the same reason, of the fifth amendment.

Mr. VELDE. I suggest that the Chair instruct the witness to answer the question.

Mr. MOULDER. The Chair directs you to answer the question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I respectfully decline to answer that on the grounds that it will tend to incriminate me, and ask the privilege.

Mr. WHEELER. Are you a member of the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. For the same reason, again I invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. MOULDER. You are directed to answer the question. I think it is a very unfair reflection upon that union, a legitimate, highly respected labor organization, and you should answer that question.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. There is a very particular problem on that in my case, and for that reason I don’t want to waive any rights under the fifth amendment. So I respectfully again have to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. MOULDER. Proceed.

Mr. WHEELER. Have you held any position in any union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. The same--the fifth amendment. I will have to invoke the fifth amendment again on that question.

Mr. WHEELER. Is it not a fact that you at one time were business agent for the International Association of Machinists, A. F. of L.?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Again I will have to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. WHEELER. To refer to the testimony of Barbara Hartle, page 6094, part 2 of the hearings held in June 1954:

The business agent for several years of the machinists union during this time was Harold Johnston, who was a member also of the district committee of the Communist Party of which I was a member.

Was Mrs. Hartle correct in making that statement?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will have to again invoke the fifth amendment in that it is liable to incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Were you ever at any time a member of the district committee of the Communist Party of King County?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again have to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds it will possibly incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Were you a member of the district committee of the Communist Party of King County while business agent for the machinists union?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I will again have to invoke the fifth amendment on the ground possibly to incriminate me.

Mr. WHEELER. Is it not a fact that there was a group of machinists of 8 or 10 who were members of the Communist Party within that union?

Mr. JOHNSTON. Again will I have to invoke the fifth amendment for the same reason.

Mr. MOULDER. Let me understand that question, Mr. Wheeler.

Mr. WHEELER. I will repeat it.

Is it not a fact that there was a branch or cell of the Communist Party within the machinists union of which you were a member?

Mr. MOULDER. Can you specify the date?

Mr. WHEELER. The date, sir, runs during the war years and before, a continuing date.

Mr. MOULDER. Do you have any knowledge or information concerning the question propounded to you by Mr. Wheeler?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. I didn’t get that complete. I am a little bit hard of hearing. Would you read it over again?

Mr. MOULDER. My question is, Do you have any knowledge or information concerning a Communist cell in the machinists union?

Mr. JOHNSTON. On the question of knowledge, it is liable to incriminate me. So again I have to invoke the fifth amendment.

Mr. WHEELER. Mr. Johnston, do you believe the Communist Party has a place in organized labor?

(The witness confers with his counsel.)

Mr. JOHNSTON. Well, I couldn’t answer that yes or no. I am no expert. You have experts here, and I am not one. I am sorry I couldn’t give you an intelligent answer on that.

Mr. MOULDER. You can express your approval or disapproval of it. That is, in the form of the question you could express your approval or disapproval of it.

(The witness confers with his counsel.)