Part 2

_Young men._--Did any of you know Mr. Barrow? if we may be so bold to ask, for we would willingly know what [was] his life and conversation; because some, we perceive, have him in precious esteem, and others can scarce name him without some note of obloquy and dislike.

_Ancient men._--We have not seen his person; but some of us have been well acquainted with those that knew him familiarly both before and after his conversion; and one of us hath had conference with one that was his domestic servant, and tended upon him both before and some while after the same.

He was a gentleman of good worth, and a flourishing courtier in his time, and, as appears in his own answers to the Archbishop and Doctor Cousens, he was some time a student at Cambridge and the Inns of Court, and accomplished with strong parts.

We have heard his conversion to be on this wise. Walking in London one Lord’s day with one of his companions, he heard a preacher at his sermon very loud, as they passed by the church. Upon which Mr. Barrow said unto his consort, “Let us go in and hear what this man saith that is thus earnest.” “Tush,” said the other, “what! shall we go to hear a man talk?” &c. But in he went and sat down. And the minister was vehement in reproving sin, and sharply applied the judgments of God against the same; and, it should seem, touched him to the quick in such things as he was guilty of, so as God set it home to his soul, and began to work his repentance and conversion thereby. For he was so stricken as he could not be quiet, until by conference with godly men and further hearing of the word, with diligent reading and meditation, God brought peace to his soul and conscience, after much humiliation of heart and reformation of life; so as he left the court, and retired himself to a private life, some time in the country and some time in the city, giving himself to study and reading of the Scriptures and other good works very diligently. And being missed at court by his consorts and acquaintance, it was quickly bruited abroad that Barrow was turned Puritan. What his course was afterwards, his writings show, as also his sufferings and conference with men of all sorts do declare, until his life was taken from him.

And thus much we can further affirm, from those that well knew him, that he was very comfortable to the poor and those in distress in their sufferings; and when he saw he must die, he gave a stock for the relief of the poor of the church, which was a good help to them in their banished condition afterwards. Yea, and that which some will hardly believe, he did much persuade them to peace, and composed many differences that were grown amongst them whilst he lived, and would have, it is like, prevented more that after fell out, if he had continued.

_Young men._--We thank you for your pains. We hope it will extend further than our satisfaction. We cannot but marvel that such a man should be by so many aspersed.

_Ancient men._--It is not much to be marvelled at; for he was most plain in discovering the cruelty, fraud, and hypocrisy of the enemies of the truth, and searching into the corruptions of the time, which made him abhorred of them; and peradventure something too harsh against the haltings of divers of the preachers and professors that he had to deal with in those times, who out of fear or weakness did not come so close up to the truth in their practice as their doctrines and grounds seemed to hold forth. Which makes us remember what was the answer of Erasmus to the Duke of Saxony, when he asked his opinion whether Luther had erred. He answered, “his opinions were good, but wished he would moderate his style, which stirred him up the more enemies, no doubt.”

_Young men._--We find in the writings of some such who were very eminent in their times for piety and learning, that those of the Separation found more favor in our native country than those who were reproached by the name of Puritans; and after much discourse thereabouts, come to this conclusion, that no comparison will hold from the Separatists to them in their sufferings but _a minori_; and then they go on and say, what a compulsory banishment has been put upon those blessed and glorious lights, Mr. Cartwright, Mr. Parker, Doctor Ames, &c.

_Ancient men._--Far be it from any of us to detract from or to extenuate the sufferings of any of the servants of God, much less from those worthies forenamed, or any others afterwards mentioned. Yet, under favor, we crave pardon if we cannot consent to the judgment of such eminent ones for piety and learning above hinted. We doubt not, but do easily grant, that the sufferings of those reproached by the name of Puritans were great, especially some of them, and were better known to those pious and learned [men] first above intimated, than the sufferings of those that are reproached by the name of Brownists and Separatists. But we shall give you some instances, and leave it to you and some others to consider of.

1. Though no more were publicly executed, yet sundry more were condemned, and brought to the gallows, and ascended the ladder, not knowing but they should die, and have been reprieved, and after banished; some of which we have known and often spoken with.

2. Others have not only been forced into voluntary banishment, by great numbers, to avoid further cruelty, but divers, after long and sore imprisonment, have been forced to abjure the land by oath, never to return without leave. In anno 1604 four persons at once were forced to do so at a public Sessions in London, or else upon refusal they were to be hanged. This their abjuration was done on the statute of the 35 of Queen Elizabeth. Some of these we have also known.

3. We find mention in a printed book of seventeen or eighteen that have died in several prisons in London in six years’ time before the year 1592, besides what have been in other parts of the land, and since that time, perishing by cold, hunger, or noisomeness of the prison.

4. In the same year we find a lamentable petition, now in print, of sixty persons committed unbailable to several prisons in London, as Newgate, the Gatehouse, Clink, &c., being made close prisoners, allowing them neither meat, drink, nor lodging, nor suffering any whose hearts the Lord would stir up for their relief, to have any access unto them; so as they complain that no felons, traitors, nor murderers in the land were thus dealt with; and so after many other grievous complaints conclude with these words: “We crave for all of us but the liberty either to die openly, or to live openly in the land of our nativity. If we deserve death, it beseemeth the majesty of justice not to see us closely murdered, yea starved to death with hunger and cold, and stifled in loathsome dungeons. If we be guiltless, we crave but the benefit of our innocence, viz. that we may have peace to serve our God and our Prince in the place of the sepulchres of our fathers.”

And what numbers since those, who have been put unto compulsory banishment and other hard sufferings, as loss of goods, friends, and long and hard imprisonments, under which many have died,--it is so well known, that it would make up a volume to rehearse them, and would not only equalize but far exceed the number of those godly called Puritans that have suffered. Suppose they were but few of them ministers that suffered, as above expressed; yet their sorrows might be as great, and their wants more, and their souls as much afflicted, because more contemned and neglected of men.

But some have said _they_ were excommunicated; and that was no great matter as excommunications went in those days. So were _these_, not only while they were living, but some of them many times after they were dead; and as some of the other were imprisoned, so were more of these. But it is further said, all of them were deprived of their ministry; and so were these of their livelihood and maintenance, although they had no offices to lose. But those remained still in the land, and were succoured and sheltered by good people in a competent wise, the most of them, and sundry of them lived as well, as may easily be proved, if not better, than if they had enjoyed their benefices; whereas the other were, a great number of them, forced to fly into foreign lands for shelter, or else might have perished in prisons; and these poor creatures endured, many of them, such hardships (as is well known to some of us) as makes our hearts still ache to remember.

We some of us knew Mr. Parker, Dr. Ames, and Mr. Jacob in Holland, when they sojourned for a time in Leyden; and all three boarded together and had their victuals dressed by some of our acquaintance, and then they lived comfortable, and then they were provided for as became their persons. And after Mr. Jacob returned, and Mr. Parker was at Amsterdam, where he printed some of his books, and Mr. Ames disposed of himself to other places, it was not worse with him; and some of us well know how it fared then with many precious Christians in divers times and places. To speak the truth, the professors in England, though many of them suffered much at the hands of the prelates, yet they had a great advantage of the Separatists; for the Separatists had not only the prelates and their faction to encounter with (and what hard measure they met with at their hands, above the other, doth sufficiently appear by what is before declared), but also they must endure the frowns, and many times the sharp invectives, of the forward ministers against them, both in public and private; and what influence they had upon the spirits of the people, is well enough known also; by reason hereof the ministers in foreign countries did look awry at them when they would give help and countenance to the other.

_Young men._--Indeed, it seems they have sometimes suffered much hardness in the Low Countries, if that be true that is reported of such a man as Mr. Ainsworth, that he should live for some time with nine pence a week. To which is replied by another, that if people suffered him to live on nine pence a week, with roots boiled, either the people were grown extreme low in estate, or the growth of their godliness was come to a very low ebb.

_Ancient men._--The truth is, their condition for the most part was for some time very low and hard. It was with them as, if it should be related, would hardly be believed. And no marvel. For many of them had lain long in prisons, and then were banished into Newfoundland, where they were abused, and at last came into the Low Countries, and wanting money, trades, friends or acquaintances, and languages to help themselves, how could it be otherwise? The report of Mr. Ainsworth was near those times, when he was newly come out of Ireland with others poor, and being a single young man and very studious, was content with a little. And yet, to take off the aspersion from the people in that particular, the chief and true reason thereof is mistaken; for he was a very modest and bashful man, and concealed his wants from others, until some suspected how it was with him, and pressed him to see how it was; and after it was known, such as were able mended his condition; and when he was married afterwards, he and his family were comfortably provided for. But we have said enough of these things. They had few friends to comfort them, nor any arm of flesh to support them; and if in some things they were too rigid, they are rather to be pitied, considering their times and sufferings, than to be blasted with reproach to posterity.

_Young men._--Was that Brown that fell away and made apostasy, the first inventor and beginner of this way?

_Ancient men._--No, verily; for, as one answers this question very well in a printed book, almost forty years ago, that the prophets, apostles, and evangelists have in their authentic writings laid down the ground thereof; and upon that ground is their building reared up and surely settled. Moreover, many of the martyrs, both former and latter, have maintained it, as is to be seen in The Acts and Monuments of the Church. Also, in the days of Queen Elizabeth there was a separated church, whereof Mr. Fitts was pastor, and another before that in the time of Queen Mary, of which Mr. Rough was pastor or teacher, and Cudbert Simpson a deacon, who exercised amongst themselves, as other ordinances, so church censures, as excommunication, etc., and professed and practised that cause before Mr. Brown wrote for it. But he being one that afterwards wrote for it, they that first hatched the name of Puritans and bestowed it on the godly professors that desired reformation, they likewise out of the same storehouse would needs bestow this new livery upon others that never would own it, nor had reason so to do. Mr. Cotton, likewise, in his Answer to Mr. Baylie, page fourth, shows how in the year 1567 there were a hundred persons who refused the common liturgy, and the congregations attending thereunto, and used prayers and preaching and the sacraments amongst themselves, whereof fourteen or fifteen were sent to prison, of whom the chiefest were Mr. Smith, Mr. Nixon, James Ireland, Robert Hawkins, Thomas Rowland, and Richard Morecroft; and these pleaded their separation before the Lord Mayor, Bishop Sands, and other commissioners on June 20, 1567, about eighty years ago, being many years before Brown. Divers other instances might be given.

_Young men._--But if we mistake not, Mr. Brown is accounted by some of good note to be the inventor of that way which is called Brownism, from whom the sect took its name. Moreover, it is said by such of note as aforesaid, that it is not God’s usual manner of dealing to leave any of the first publishers or restorers of any truth of his to such fearful apostasy.

_Ancient men._--Possibly this speech might arise from a common received opinion. But reverend Mr. Cotton, in his Answer to Mr. Baylie, saith “the backsliding of Brown from that way of Separation is a just reason why the Separatists may disclaim denomination from him, and refuse to be called Brownists, after his name; and to speak with reason,” saith he, “if any be justly to be called Brownists, it is only such as revolt from Separation to formality, and from thence to profaneness.” Page 5.

To which we may add, that it is very injurious to call those after his name, whose person they never knew, and whose writings few if any of them ever saw, and whose errors and back-slidings they have constantly borne witness against; and what truths they have received have been from the light of God’s sacred word, conveyed by other godly instruments unto them; though Brown may sometimes have professed some of the same things, and now fallen from the same, as many others have done.

_Young men._--Seeing we have presumed thus far to inquire into these ancienter times of you, and of the sufferings of the aforesaid persons, we would likewise entreat you, though never so briefly, to tell us something of the persons and carriages of other eminent men about those times, or immediately after, as Mr. Francis Johnson, Mr. Henry Ainsworth, Mr. John Smith, Mr. John Robinson, Mr. Richard Clifton.

_Ancient men._--Here are some in the company that knew them all familiarly, whom we shall desire to satisfy your request.

Those answered, We shall do it most willingly; for we cannot but honor the memory of the men for the good that not only many others but we ourselves have received by them and their ministry; for we have heard them all, and lived under the ministry of divers of them for some years. We shall therefore speak of them in order briefly.

Mr. JOHNSON, of whom something was spoken before, was pastor of the church of God at Amsterdam. A very grave man he was, and an able teacher, and was the most solemn in all his administrations that we have seen any, and especially in dispensing the seals of the covenant, both baptism and the Lord’s supper. And a good disputant he was. We heard Mr. Smith upon occasion say, that he was persuaded no men living were able to maintain a cause against those two men, meaning Mr. Johnson and Mr. Ainsworth, if they had not the truth on their side. He, by reason of many dissensions that fell out in the church, and the subtilty of one of the elders of the same, came after many years to alter his judgment about the government of the church, and his practice thereupon, which caused a division amongst them. But he lived not many years after, and died at Amsterdam after his return from Embden.

_Young men._--But he is much spoken against for excommunicating his brother and his own father, and maintaining his wife’s cause, who was by his brother and others reproved for her pride in apparel.

_Ancient men._--Himself hath often made his own defence, and others for him. The church did, after long patience towards them and much pains taken with them, excommunicate them for their unreasonable and endless opposition, and such things as did accompany the same; and such was the justice thereof, as he could not but consent thereto. In our time his wife was a grave matron, and very modest both in her apparel and all her demeanour, ready to any good works in her place, and helpful to many, especially the poor, and an ornament to his calling. She was a young widow when he married her, and had been a merchant’s wife, by whom he had a good estate, and was a godly woman; and because she wore such apparel as she had been formerly used to, which were neither excessive nor immodest, for their chiefest exceptions were against her wearing of some whalebone in the bodice and sleeves of her gown, corked shoes, and other such like things as the citizens of her rank then used to wear. And although, for offence sake, she and he were willing to reform the fashions of them so far as might be without spoiling of their garments, yet it would not content them except they came full up to their size. Such was the strictness or rigidness (as now the term goes) of some in those times, as we can by experience and of our own knowledge show in other instances. We shall for brevity sake only show one.

We were in the company of a godly man that had been a long time prisoner at Norwich for this cause, and was by Judge Cooke set at liberty. After going into the country he visited his friends, and returning that way again to go into the Low Countries by ship at Yarmouth, and so desired some of us to turn in with him to the house of an ancient woman in the city, who had been very kind and helpful to him in his sufferings. She knowing his voice made him very welcome, and those with him. But after some time of their entertainment, being ready to depart, she came up to him and felt of his band (for her eyes were dim with age), and perceiving it was something stiffened with starch, she was much displeased, and reproved him very sharply, fearing God would not prosper his journey. Yet the man was a plain countryman, clad in gray russet, without either welt or guard (as the proverb is), and the band he wore scarce worth threepence, made of their own homespinning; and he was godly and humble as he was plain. What would such professors, if they were now living, say to the excess of our times?

Mr. HENRY AINSWORTH, a man of a thousand, was teacher of this church at Amsterdam at the same time when Mr. Johnson was pastor. Two worthy men they were and of excellent parts. He continued constant in his judgment and practice unto his end in those things about the church government, from which Mr. Johnson swerved and fell. He ever maintained good correspondence with Mr. Robinson at Leyden, and would consult with him in all matters of weight, both in their differences and afterwards. A very learned man he was, and a close student, which much impaired his health. We have heard some, eminent in the knowledge of the tongues, of the university of Leyden, say that they thought he had not his better for the Hebrew tongue in the university, nor scarce in Europe. He was a man very modest, amiable, and sociable in his ordinary course and carriage, of an innocent and unblamable life and conversation, of a meek spirit, and a calm temper, void of passion and not easily provoked. And yet he would be something smart in his style to his opposers in his public writings; at which we that have seen his constant carriage, both in public disputes and the managing of all church affairs, and such like occurrences, have sometimes marvelled. He had an excellent gift of teaching and opening the Scriptures; and things did flow from him with that facility, plainness, and sweetness, as did much affect the hearers. He was powerful and profound in doctrine, although his voice was not strong; and had this excellency above many, that he was most ready and pregnant in the Scriptures, as if the book of God had been written in his heart; being as ready in his quotations, without tossing and turning his book, as if they had lain open before his eyes, and seldom missing a word in the citing of any place, teaching not only the word and doctrine of God, but in the words of God, and for the most part in a continued phrase and words of Scripture. He used great dexterity, and was ready in comparing Scripture with Scripture, one with another. In a word, the times and place in which he lived were not worthy of such a man.

_Young men._--But we find that he is taxed, in a book writ by George Johnson, with apostasy and to be a man-pleaser, etc.

_Ancient men._--Who can escape the scourge of tongues? Christ himself could not do it when he was here upon earth, although there was no guile found in his mouth; nor Moses, although he was the meekest man in the earth. For man-pleasing, they that tax him [do it] because he concurred against their violent and endless dissensions about the former matters. And for his apostasy, this was all the matter. When he was a young man, before he came out of England, he at the persuasion of some of his godly friends went once or twice to hear a godly minister preach; and this was the great matter of apostasy, for which those violent men thought him worthy to be deposed from his place, and for which they thus charge him. And truly herein they may worthily bear the name of rigid, etc.

Mr. JOHN SMITH was an eminent man in his time, and a good preacher, and of other good parts; but his inconstancy, and unstable judgment, and being so suddenly carried away with things, did soon overthrow him. Yet we have some of us heard him use this speech: “Truly,” said he, “we being now come into a place of liberty, are in great danger, if we look not well to our ways; for we are like men set upon the ice, and therefore may easily slide and fall.” But in this example it appears it is an easier matter to give good counsel than to follow it, to foresee danger than to prevent it: which made the prophet to say, “O Lord, the way of man is not in himself, neither is it in man to walk and to direct his steps.” He was some time pastor to a company of honest and godly men which came with him out of England, and pitched at Amsterdam. He first fell into some errors about the Scriptures, and so into some opposition with Mr. Johnson, who had been his tutor, and the church there. But he was convinced of them by the pains and faithfulness of Mr. Johnson and Mr. Ainsworth, and revoked them; but afterwards was drawn away by some of the Dutch Anabaptists, who finding him to be a good scholar and unsettled, they easily misled the most of his people, and other of them scattered away. He lived not many years after, but died there of a consumption, to which he was inclined before he came out of England. His and his people’s condition may be an object of pity for after times.